Can Folding the Best Hand be the CORRECT PLAY?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 เม.ย. 2022
- The Hero in this hand turns the nut straight after being the preflop raiser on a monotone board. Then something crazy happens multiway. Can folding the best hand be correct regardless of the results?
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Before watching the video: "Can Folding the Best Hand be the CORRECT PLAY?" this title violates Betteridge's Law of Headlines, which states that "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." And I love it. You simply cannot be a winning poker player if you *never* fold the best hand.
I teach editorial writing and I recently talked to students about exactly this, haha! Nice.
And a nice call in to boot ;)
I wouldn’t exactly call it the correct play but I’d call it a necessary play
Perfect reads are just not possible, therefore you WILL be forced to fold the best hand SOME of the time in poker, unless you NEVER fold which is a GUARANTEED horrendously losing strategy
@Grant Kirtz Agreed, and yes that’s what I mean
Indeed, if folding the best hand were not often the correct play top level poker wouldn't feature bluffing.
@@qazzaqstan Exactly. There's a theoretically correct bluffing frequency, a theoretically correct calling frequency, and a theoretically correct folding-the-best hand frequency. Unless you are indeed Mike Postle. And even then there was probably an exploitatively correct "make the play you know is wrong so you're not so obvious with your damn cheating" frequency.
These are the people that I play against on a weekly basis. Nice breakdown Bart. Thanks for what you do!
Low stakes life baby
I learn so much from these but the real reason I watch is Bart's expressions...13:00 lmao thanks again sir!
What’s interesting is that this is soooooo close to my hand from last week (titled don’t leave money on the table) I had when I had 67 of diamonds and one guy flopped a set and one riveted a straight. I think my hand showed that this was the right call and some one will often have a flush. I’m glad the guys playing me didn’t fold though!
I'm generally never afraid of a flopped flush. Odds of a flopped flush are so low. I think especially at low level play a Q with A or K diamond is just as likely to be overplayed. In this situation I would always call it off on the turn at low stakes
Sometimes you have to let yourself be bluffed. I would be making a note on this guy for sure.
From the description given of the Bbs play I am actually discounting this river lead and if we were heads up I would actually consider clicking it back. The unfortunate part of this donk bet is it leaves here stepping out onto the freeway blindfolded. Sure he might make it safely across but the button is the most likely candidate for having the flush here and so if he is either nutted or close to it he will raise and force a fold from hero but if he also reads BB the same way he can probably happily raise with any flush, and the price he will be laying is gross and might cause a tilt pay off. If the bb has been known to bet trash on the river AND fold when raised, and the button is thinking on a high level he can literally turn any two into a bluff since the bb may not be capped at 2 pair but from what I've watched up until his donk lead that's the sense I'm getting. He was waiting for no more diamonds to fire his top pair or two pair and has absolutely no hand reading ability if that was his only fear all along
Bart - what are your thoughts on how the button played this hand? Do you like him calling the raise on the turn? Do you think he made the right decision to call on the river?
From the description of the BB he sounds like a bunch of players I have faced over the years. They have a distinct betting pattern where they bet big when bluffing to put maximum pressure and use a more standard bet sizing when they are betting for value. It sounds to me like the Button was thinking the same thing as far as the BB is bluffing more often than not on a missed flush draw on the river with a larger sizing. This opens up the Button's calling range to single pairs, 2 pairs, sets, straights, baby flushes, broadway flushes, or any bluff catcher basically. He was just waiting on the river to see what the caller did. On the river I would have to consider the Button having that wide of a range before doing anything. This also heavily depends on the type of players you have at the table and how they play. I think a call could be acceptable in this specific situation depending on the player type, but it would not be a common occurrence. Very interesting hand and definitely a tough spot where you have to fold almost every time.
Bart, if you were the button in this spot, would you be folding after turning the set of 9s? have nut potential for the river boat but does that justify the call after the $150 raise and uncertainty of what the BB might do behind you (jam etc)?
I was watching this one poker player who never folded the winning hand. I think his crotch was telling him what to do.
Before seeing the river resolution, I think I would fold. This river donk bet is soooo strong against 2 players.
This hand illustrates why live poker is awesome. Because of the nature of the multi way nature of the hands, it leads to non standard play and ridiculousness...lol
Caller said at the beginning that BB was a maniac who often bet/raised river with bottom pair. That kinda throws everything Bart said out the window, IMO.
I might still fold just because button seems very strong as well and we are very deep-stacked. But I am not one bit surprised the BB ended up having a ridiculous(ly bad) hand.
Good fold i like it. Most of the time they will have u beat . Ofc its poker and sometimes it will be rare time u fold best hand . Thats how that game works
I liked the call there yet it was debatable... gut just had it right here for me but that's poker
I have a few concerns about the fold and I'm not sure what to think. Because of the F getting checked through, doesn't hero have a lot of worse hands on the river? He has to call SOMETHING, and if that something are only non ace flushes, isn't hero overfolding? With that said, that could be correct exploitatively, but I wouldn't be surprised if GTO says to call quite often.
Yeah I don’t see how you can possibly call here. It’s just really unlucky that those were their two exact hands.
I couldn’t think what hands button could have that would check behind on the flop but then call a raise on the turn. I assumed a sandbagged nut flush but I guess 99 makes sense.
How do I email you a hand.
Not a bad play from the villian with thr Ad
Question: where I play 1 3, if you raise to 15, you get 4 callers every time... raise 30 and if one person calls everyone behind calls. Very hard to get heads up. Thoughts?
I think Bart touched on in the call where he said that you would have to limit your opening range to only stronger hands you would play from early position. That way you are in better shape if it goes 4/5 way to the flop. It makes your hands more face up, but does that matter if worse hands are still calling you down for 3 streets (which they will at that level)?
Should bb have shoved turn seems like a good play with the ace of diamonds rather than bluff leading river
From my experience live poker have changed a lot. I currently play 1/2nl and even that game plays more like 2/5. I’ve seen people bluff more often than not. Also I’ve seen people try to value bet bottom pair for 3 streets on wet boards. 🤷🏽♂️
At low stakes I see so many of those bet/call/donk bluff river with a missed draw, I think you can profitably call here, expecting this kind of move.
Probably because of the title, but I had a feeling BB was bluffing with the Ad. I was more concerned with the button. I fold, but like Bart said, I think you avoid this situation by not raising the turn. Just a case of being stuck in the middle of two people clicking buttons.
Yeah, in this player pool it looks like we kind of accidentally overrep our hand with the turn raise.
Button has a set and probably thinks Hero has a flush or a draw, Bb just won't fold the Ad and is clicking buttons on the river.
@Alex F sure, maybe so. I sure don't presume to know exactly how the villains think! I just think from the action that we didn't convey what we thought we would by raising turn.
“Guys from NH are pretty far behind” 😂
Hey wait, I live in NH. And I used to play at Chasers a lot. From the looks of it, I should go back to playing.
14:23
I think playing poker to win money you will just fold the best hand at times but because u can fold the best hand you can make some really outstanding folds later on .
super interesting hand. especially the turn. hero's raise on the turn is awkward, right? he raised pf and didn't cbet. the nuts hasn't changed and now he's raising a turn probe. feels like hero is repping the nuts but who doesn't bet the flop with that on an extremely wet board in a multiway raised pot?? he probably doesn't have the naked Ad bc if he's raising the turn with it he's probably just betting the flop with it instead. also this isnt plo lol.
so all that suggests hero had not much on the flop and improved on the turn. so basically JT/65/99/98 i guess? probably can rule out 65 from the pf action. 98 can't really raise the turn either. so basically hero always has either JT or 99 here? his range seems pretty capped. i think this is the reason id prefer a turn call. its tough to say. for me the toughest hands to analyze are the ones where hero's lines are so different from how id play it that id almost never end up in that spot.
Ida shoved the turn and got it all from both chumpz
Why can’t the button have the naked Ad? I might have called because I put the initial bettor on over bluffing and the player behind on the naked Ace.
The problem is are you prepared to call a shove if BT shoves over? It's a multi way pot, and once you raise on the turn and you get two calls, and then BB leads out it's so rare to be actually good here. I think Disc Golf might play a bit different than poker lol jk
If the button had folded and BB is known to be crazy then I think hero has to call. But because button behind is still to act it’s a fold.
This is a situation I can’t really say what I would have done without being there. Having played hands with the two players + live reads would ultimately determine whether or not I folded or called. I’m just saying I can see a situation in which the wild guy is bluffing for the sake of bluffing and the player behind is on the nut draw.
@@discgolfspeedruns165 BB led the hand here…
The poker community is the worst. I’m trying to have a discussion and people just troll insults. If the naked Ad is in the buttons range, I don’t think it’s such a crazy crying call. I’m not a TH-cam troller. I’m actually a winning player who is surprised that the possibility of the button having the Ad was not discussed in the video. That is all. Happy trolling, everyone.
Ofc if most of the time you’re beat why call for the one time you’re right. Ego?
The old value bluff.
Why does the caller call the button the "buh-inn"?
that's how the kids talk nowadays. they also mispronounce "often" i've noticed.
I'm not sure why we assume all our opponents at chasers or insert lol live rooms name here are playing even close to theoretically well let alone perfect
Bloating pot on a non nut made hand with no redraw...call turn call river most likely gets most value with least amount of risk. If BB jams river - more power to him but most likely going to bet pot with a his flush bluff. Hero can safely call pot or less river bet with the opportunity that button only over calls getting a good price.
Phil helmuth strategy: let them rob you so much, and when you finally trap them, act like you are the man even though they are still ahead overall
i played with a guy last night who literally always trapped strong hands. He would flop TPTK against TPWK and win 4 BB on the hand.
After three hours he finally got somebody and was gloating so much, it was hilarious. Nice work buddy.
He should of just called on the turn, keep the pot small and call river.
Jeez… such a brutal showdown. Fold was the correct play even though you would have won. That spot is nearly never bluffed.
Can't be too results oriented.
easy fold
"Guys from New Hampshire are pretty far behind" - Bart
14:23
I actually thought this was a clear call
But y guy bet 35 hero raises to 150 guy behind calls that 150 is let me see where I am at it may be expected for the initial guy to call because he had the A of diamonds and lead out with 35 but the guy behind you calls your 150 and you think you still good heads up maybe if you call that 300 even though u win you may be a player of 1 of three types 1. You play like you on tilt. 2. You only play your cards in your hand and dont account for opponents hands or 3 you dnt know how to fold.
@@byranttaylor1535 The odds of flopping a flush is less than 1%. If button had a flush then he would most likely bet in position on the flop unless maybe he had A high flush. On the turn two players showed interest in the pot with a bet and raise. If button had a flush he would likely reraise knowing he will get action from one player and charge for full house outs. It would be reasonable to think BB wanted to check raise the flop with a flush but it checked through. However if he had a flush he would likely be reraising the turn for the same reasons (plus he would have even more incentive being out of position.)
@@byranttaylor1535 I didn’t say I supported the rest of the way the hand was played, but as played, I think it’s a clear call, and a lot of this is for the very reason of how it was played. The same argument for raising the turn because it was checked back on the flop is the argument for flushes being less in our range makes their value bets thinner than flushes on the River and make them bluff more liberally because we have a capped perceived range.
I love these videos, but spoilers in the thumbnails and titles are a little annoying…
oh no! mike is a little bit annoyed, someone please call the waambulance; but seriously, I dont care about the title I'm here to learn poker logic. It's not like someone is telling you who won the match when you're watching it the next day.
@@shadowwarsshadypeople6299 Well, quite. I understand that for you experts, it probably doesn't matter if you already know what amounts to merely the answer to a worked example. But for us mortals, an element of the enjoyment comes from the surprise at the end. And even from an educational point of view, it's nice to play along with the hand and see if one would have made the same decisions or had the same read. Knowing ahead of time that the caller had the best hand makes that harder. Anyway, got to run. The waambulance is outside and I don't want to keep him waiting...
Even Bart can't predict when players will make absolutely nonsensical plays, like spewing on the river into two players who had just raised and cold-called the turn.
Sometimes you gotta make a good fold even though you wouldve won I was playing a deep stack tournament maybe had 80k in chips my opponent had bout 120k blinds r 2k 4k 4k ante hes first to act I wake up with JJ suits dnt matter he makes a bet to 25k everyone folds it gets to me I thought bout re raising but I'm like I'll call examine the flip flop comes out AK7 he jams I fold he shows me 66 I smh I show him JJ I said chill out I'm going to catch you moral of the story I won the tournament sometimes it's hard to fold amazing hands but there will be better spots
I don't see any benefit to showing. And your stack is too short to Flat. Shove.
It was never a raise on the turn but it was 100% fold on the river, especially against two opponents.
Also calling doesnt seem like a reasonable play. Its either raise or fold
Hero lost all his Equity because he didn't smooth-call the Turn-bet. If he smooth-calls, Hero can make the "hero-call" against a $200-$250 bluff-bet on the River.
If you've never folded the best hand, you calll too often.
If you thought you were good on the turn to raise and weren't raised back why would you fold. If you didn't raise on the turn you probably win this hand. Sometimes you have to read people besides being mathematical.
I've been in these SMH plays often. You just can't predict when they will rear thier ugly head. 😐
8oo need a job
dude. no. im sorry, but so long as the board doesnt pair and another diamond doesnt come, IM WILLING TO LOSE MY MONEY IN THIS SPOT WITH MY NUT STRAIGHT. cant give this much credit, my god.
I’m actually a fan of hero’s raise on the turn…
But from a theoretical standpoint isn’t raise-folding the turn very exploitable?
If hero always bets flushes on the flop then isn’t this the best hand hero ever has on the turn? So an aggro player can just 3-bet 100% of their range and get hero to fold every time.
Yes AND there is a difference between being exploitable in theory and your opponents actually being able to exploit you. It is very hard to exploit people in multiway spots (unless you are exploiting them for calling too wide) because you have to worry about the other player.
This hand is a good example of that. Excellent exploitative lead by the guy who lost.
It is the third player behind that is the trouble. His call on the turn both looks very strong and bloats the pot. The bluff on the river was kind of crazy, getting both of you, who are repping strong hands, to fold.
Depends how much you do it. If you're raise/folding a large portion of your range, yes. But you're supposed to raise/fold some percentage of hands "in theory." I'd imagine the theoretical turn line is to flat, but not sure. Hard to run a multiway sim with some massive BB range and whatever the limper's range is. Would be fun though. How much to rent a server?
Hero maybe shouldn't always bet all flushes on flop, from a theoretical standpoint, I think. If they do, I think you're not wrong, except hero could have some hands that make better calls, like a hand with a single diamond in it, or maybe a turned set (since that's a boat draw).
@@adamshort2534 yeah I agree that in practice people aren’t actually going to take advantage.
Hero did the right thing. That's poker.
First
You give advice as if you aren't privileged to the knowledge prior
He bet $300 on a $532 pot. And there is a chance he might be bluffing. You have to put someone on an Ace of diamond that didnt get there.
Considering that the button calls the $300. You have $300 to win $1132+$300=$1432 pot. So approximately 5:1. Its a call, considering you win all bluffs.
Now considering the button is going to fold.
You are getting $300 to win $1132 pot. Thats approximately 4:1. But there is a possibility that Any ace of diamond could bluff you like that. For this to be a successful bluff catch you need to be right once every 4 times. But if you can catch a bluff once every 3 times and be right youre positive EV. Its a call.
Then, there is rejam. If you rejam. For 580$ more. Everyone calls, you're getting 4:1. 1 from the pot, one from you and 2 from them. Rejam can make bluffs fold. Rejam is the best option. If they have a flush they have a flush. Positive EV if you jam.