Interesting video. I built my home in 1996. It was plumbed with white PEX A to a manifold in the garage. All of the fittings are brass and have a hot water recirculation system connected to the HW side. My home has a crawl space so there are no pipes under the slab. The main water service is 1" PEX A. We did a major remodel 4 years ago and all the walls with fixtures and plumbing pipes were exposed. No issues like you were showing in your video. We are in the middle of a complete interior tear out of a family vacation home and are planning again to use PEX A and a "smart" recirculation system for the HW that uses sensors to start the pump. I have overseen the production of 1500 homes that have had PEX A installed in them and the only warranty issues we have are with screws in the pipes or a pipe that was cut. When the houses are plumbed, they remain under test with water lines under pressure and drain lines filled to the top of the vents. We first switched from copper in 1993 when it started getting stolen out of our homes. We then switched to CPVC which was a nightmare. CPVC freezes easily, it fractures easily, and the glued joints fail too often. In 1995 we switched to Wirsbo PEX A and have not looked back. We no longer use manifolds and it's plumbed in a traditional way. No complaints or lawsuits from homeowners. The only complaints we get about plumbing are the low flow fixtures, particularly shower heads. Also get complaints about how long it takes to get HW to the faucets. They do not recommend recirculation systems for tankless or heat pump water heaters unless you have a "smart re-circulation system" which we do offer as an option. I will tell our warranty team to keep a lookout for the problems you described. Thanks for the information.
I repiped my plumbing to far end of the house after copper line leaked under the slab this was around 2005 with PEX. I still have some of that stuff not even PEX A or B just says PEX. Never had any leaking and I also run a hot water recirculating pump. I used the cheap watts pump and a GE smart outlet with a motion sensor I have on the wall in 2 bedrooms. I program the smart outlet to run for 30 minutes when it detects motion. Then it is off for 30 minutes. Most of the night and day when we are at work it's not running.
OK - this is why the Uponor PEX is failing. As part of the manufacturing process of the white PEX tube is skinned with a red outer cover. In order to make the red and white bond, the tube is run through a heat tube that fuses the two parts together. This heat process causes the plastic to continue to cross link on a molecular level. The increased cross linking causes the material to become brittle. That is why you will see stress fractures in the location that the assembly tube expands the pipe to fit over the fitting. you will see linear micro cracking at the transition of the pipe/fitting joint just beyond the white ring - in the area that the tube necks down to normal size. I speak from direct experience. We had a brand new custom home built in 2013 and the Uponor PEX product was used. Blue for cold and red for hot. You will only have the problem with the red. This is due to the continuation of the cross linking of the plastic due to the hot water in the pipe. In the end, the entire hot water system pipe runs had to be removed from the walls, ceiling. All this in a two story home. A real disaster. All that expensive wall texture
Except that Uponor white also has leaks and cracks... I think your red is more likely to leak than blue because heat exacerbates the premature aging of the pipe, but examples of failed white Uponor are on the web.
I have white pex A that leaked mid pipe. We have chloromine in our water here. And if you watched the pex B video, it's extruded differently. He uses the Pex A fittings and collars for the increased flow over the Pex B fittings restriction from trying to not use expansion in the installation. The B pipe can handle expansion as well as A pipe can.
This material gets used a lot in multi-family or even commercial projects looking to tighten their budget. How long would you say until systems operating under higher temperatures (110-180) will last? I will gladly do my best to talk customers out of using PEX.
A very curious condition of the expansion rings at the 7:00 minute mark. The opinion stated is the pipe is being attacked from within and causing the pipe to turn from white to yellow. How could that be true when the expansion rings, which are NOT in contact with the fluid inside the pipe, be just as uniformly yellowed as the pipe???? That section sure looks like it was yellowed from something external instead of the internal fluid. Age, heat, UV, caustic or acidic air environment, perhaps???
Because it is from the inside and continues to work its way to the outer while traveling through it has an affect on the connections. If it breaks down the interior then it will makes its way to the connection
Omg we just had a carbon copy of a leak in our house from an uponor PEX pipe. Contacting our insurance and class action lawyers, thank you so much for this video.
I have been using uponor for at least 20 years live in western Pennsylvania. And have found that the splitting seems to occur mostly if the pipe is very cold and it’s expanded. May seem like a coincidence or not but I have had zero leaks from any install that I’m aware of. Thanks for your insight.
Hi plumber brother, another thing that kills pex pipe is sunlight. I lived in florida for 4 years, a couple of my coworkers told me was that a lot of developers bought truck loads of pex straight from uponor and left it all outside as houses and condos were being built. Some pipe sat outside in the sun for a year, I did a few service calls for leaks on pex a. Even the homeowner in a development told me the same thing about having pipe left outside and trying to sue due to leaks, but was to hard to prove.
@@geneticdisorder1900 yes that is another contributing factor. And poly gas tubing has the same issue in fact in western pa our gas companies won’t allow pipe any older than 3 years to be installed and its code that it has to be stored inside or out of direct sunlight. So it’s looking like it’s not defective materials as much as the environmental elements are impacting the integrity!
@Genetic Disorder: Good point. All distributors and users should know that PEX is not intended to be stored outdoors, and that even when stored indoors, PEX should be kept in the original packaging prior to installation for protection against UV/sunlight and other potential hazards. PEX pipe is not to be stored for extended period of time and should be installed within 30 days of exposure to UV light. If subjected to UV exposure for more that 30 days, such PEX material should be discarded and replaced with fresh pipe.
Most Uponor failures are not at the expansion, but literally anywhere on the pipe. Still, making sure the pipe is at least at room temperature before expansion is smart.
I am glad I first bought the PEX B crimper when I started using PEX, forcing me to use all PEX B. So far, I have not heard of the B having any bad leaking problems. I assume at least some of A's problems comes from the pipe being stretched out for the joint fitting, whereas the B seals with a crimped ring without stretching the pipe.
Interesting... Have been working with Upononr PEX-a pipe for over 20 years with no issues. I frequently attach new PEX into existing old PEX pipe so I can see what condition the old PEX is. Never noticed such interior damage as described here. Must be something happening locally, in your region of operation. Uponor discontinued red coated and blue coated pipes couple of years ago, and replaced them with clear pipe with red or blue print. Over 50% of new homes in US are built with PEX pipe, and PEX is choice of materials in my area as well. As far as Class Action Law Suit goes - well, there always be such law suits floating around. In 2021, City of Falsom, CA, filed class action law suit on behalf of 2,000 new homeowners because of pin hole leaks in new copper pipes. Similar Class Action law suit was filed in the well publicized Los Rivero case, filed in 2022 in So.California. Reason, leaking copper pipes. And we don't even wanna start with galvanized pipe and its century old problems. So leaks happen in all available materials - not only PEX. .PEX is a new kid on the block. We just have to accept it. Thank you
I’m in central Florida and I’ve never seen the inside of pex look like that. I’ve cut pex out on houses with water softener, plain tap, wells, chlorinators, and UV .. 1yr old, 5, 10, etc.. in my area CPVC is king. But I believe he has the best intentions but I feel that it’s Misleading. No plumbing products on the market have never been subject to a case action. NONE. They all have pros and cons.
Thank you for the information. I’m in south west PA myself. We use a lot of HePex and some AquaPex. We’ve never had any issues with HePex we’ve put in heating system and only once have we had an issue with AquaPex. The location we had the issue with AquaPex was in a municipality that has such high amounts of chlorine in the water that you can smell it gassing out if you put water in a pan and sit it on a counter.
15 years ago I said that stretching pex wasn't a good idea. I'm so glad I Have Never used overpriced uponor garbage. I'll stick to pex b and my ss camps. 15 years and Not 1 failure....
I have a feeling that this piping was exposed to excessive UV and degraded. People forget that PEX is not to be stored in sunlight or exposed continuously.
Thank you for the information and great video. I was dead set on Uponor pex a expansion. Just received my Milwaukee expansion tool as well. I'm going through your videos now for maybe another option.
Thank you for putting out this video. I was considering switching to pex A for remodels. Somehow, TH-cam randomly pulled up your video. I don't know if pex A has different brands that may not have a problem, but I will stick with pex B. I have found only one failure with pex B, and that was where someone used a plastic pex fitting with a stainless crimp ring. It completely came off pipe. I appeared to be crimped too close to the end of the pipe and not centered on fitting barbs. I prefer brass fittings and copper crimp rings. The only issue is that sometimes the crimp tool is hard to get into tight spots. I would like to see your preferred fittings and tools. Thanks again.
This is a known issue because of the way that they colored the pipe. All uponor pipe being sold now is without color. This video is just click bait and fear mongering at it's finest.
I’ve been using this 13 years in maine. I have cut into some of the pipe that has highly acidic water after about ten years to do various repairs. Although it becomes harder to expand at ten years after installation it’s still expanding and then contracting and have had zero leaks. I cannot say the same for copper or any other pipe. The water here eats everything but then pex a holds up the best.
I’ve never used it, since it came out I didn’t like it. Glad I’ve never installed any of this junk. Thank you for sharing this, I’ll be showing this to my customers and contractors that ask me for it.
When I built my home 33 years ago I installed Wirsbo in the slab except for one loop I used Stadler PEX C. I was so unsure of this new plastic pipe that I did the radiant on the second floor with copper. Since then I have used PEX A in the snowmelt system on the porch and steps, the dog kennel and a 2400 sf shop. I have never had a leak or any type of failure. I have seen PEX that I left outside uncovered for a few years and it snaps like stale pretzel sticks. I use Uponor exclusively for heating systems as the fittings maintain the ID of the tubing and have less pressure drop. I don't really use it for plumbing as I prefer copper. We have one area here that uses chloramine to sterilize water. That water destroys water softner resin in 10 years and turns anything plastic or rubber into junk.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Here is a short upload of my system, you can see the early Wirsbo manifolds and the PEX C. Stadler was using the electron beam crosslinking at that time. Tried to get a date code off the pipe but it is not legible. It seems the A PEX is having trouble with chlorine, this home has a well so that is no concern but the system id filled with a 30% glycol mixture for over thirty years and that seems to have no effect. Unfortunately the imperfections found in the Zurn piping make it unsuitable for radiant heating systems as repair fittings under slab are unacceptable. th-cam.com/video/CzMDt2YoaSI/w-d-xo.html
WOW - am I reeeeeeally glad I've been using Pex B whenever Pex was requested by the customer - this is gonna bring back memories of the Quest fittings failure and lawsuits !!
I built my house in 1992. There is around 3500 feet of Wirsbo hePex in my radiant floor heat of my basement shops and living room. This pipe was colorless translucent with smooth interiors. It looks and is as good as when I installed it. The fittings were brass threaded compression type with internal ferrules. Now, this, of course, does not get a lot of water changes in a closed loop heating service and the iron from the Hypertherm boiler does color the water grey. Now, for domestic water inside, I only use copper with lead free solder. The same goes for my heating headers and water/air heat exchangers. If I build another building, I would use the same product specifications and construction practices.
I wouldn’t use copper, I’d use pex A or B and install a flow-tech anti-scale system or a whole home filtration system and u should be good according to what he’s saying about the carcinogenic’s causing the pipe to crack
I'm still a believer in copper pipes. I just did a remodel on a 100 year old building. The copper pipes were installed in the early 50s. It was still functioning. The only reason we changed it was to go to bigger supply lines.
Your crazy! The only way copper is worth a shit is if the PH of the water is over 7. Any water with a PH of lower than 7 will have pinholes in copper in just a few years. FACTS!
@bryantaylor4139 there is more to plumbing than repiping houses. Copper is more versatile because it can handle more pressure and vacuum and it can brazed. Copper isn't the best in every situation but neither is pex.
Thank you Joe, you helped me make the decision to stick with my first decision of using Zurn Pex B, I almost went to Uponor Pex A, because of the flexibility alone. I've been searching online to find more information and came across your video. You very well may have saved me thousands of dollars and a huge headache in the future! Thanks again!
You're thanking him for misleading you? It isn't as simple as he claims and PEX B is not immune to problems caused by chlorine as the antioxidants added to the PEX (either type ) are sacrificial and ALL PEX is subject to this degradation. Has nothing to do with "undulations" or any other physical characteristic. It's chemistry but only in severe cases will PEX fail in short order. Don't plumb your pool with it. Undulations? That's just nonsense. The manufacturing process of PEX B uses silane chemistry the antioxidant are not exposed to free radical during manufacturing... but PEX A chemistry (using peroxides) is easily compensated by starting with more antioxidants. Even if you think silane chemistry results in more oxidation resistance, that is still chemical composition and not a physical property. Then micro-crack problem resulted from the process of getting the colored coatings to bond and that, as stated, decreased the resistance to oxidation. decreased... not eliminated.
I own a plumbing company in Toronto. We service high rise condos throughout the city. We have been running into issue quite often on domestic hot water risers. Pin holes and splits. Just terrible!
Any heat such as hot water will reduce the memory effect of Pex A. How long before a leak? Who knows. Guess 10 years normally but under hot water, maybe as little as 5 years
We have a house that was built in the 2005-2006 time frame with Wirsbo AquaPEX-A white translucent pipe. About 4 years ago, one of the pipes developed a very small crack and started spraying water inside the wall. We had that fixed. Then a year later, another crack / water leak. Then another, and another. We sent about 6 or 8 defective pipes to Uponor and they claim that none of the cracking in the pipes was their responsibility. This has caused so much damage in our house that we've had the house re-piped in the last month (Nov. 2022). With the re-piping, repairs to the walls, texturing, painting, etc. it's cost us over $ 50,000. Most of the Wirsbo piping looks ok, but their are sections where the pipe is discolored and the printing on the pipe is severely faded. All the cracks / leaks have occurred in the sections of the pipe where discoloration occurred. P.S. A neighbor a few door away, has the same Wirsbo AquaPEX pipe too with same cracking / water leaks. They too have had their house re-piped recently.
It is to bad that you did not call me. You have to prove/ provide evidence to prove your case. Now that the evidence is removed you can no longer prove your case.That being said if you have another neighbor that has a problem call me first. I can teach you how to collect the evidence and have their insurance adjuster call me. What city are you in please. The public likes to believe that it only happens in my area and not in theirs.
Hey Keith, I am going through the warranty process right now with Uponor but they are taking forever and we are at one week a leak now which is really bad. This is obvious that this is a defective pipe issue so it would see that Uponor should cover this. This worries me that you said they would not cover this for you. You had to pay the full $50,000 out of pocket? Did insurance help any?
I am a master plumber with 28 years of experience.I have been using uponor for around 15 years with zero problems or issues.The only thing i can think of is improper storag before installation.
The local water here is very hard, so it eats copper pipe from the inside out. The copper pipe in my house was eaten up just as bad that pex. I installed pex A with a water filtration and softener system. If the water is full of chemicals that destroy piping, it seems like removing the chemicals is the better than trying to find a magical pipe that won’t be damaged by all types of impure water.
I have Uponar AquaPEX used in my home when it was RePiped in 2019. Since then I have had both leaks described in this video, 1st one was right at a joint ring, so small that it took the plumber a week to locate, and repair. 1:27 the next leak was 6 months later, same stretch of pipe but this time 6” from the repaired joint. Both leaks were tiny tiny streams of water, my FLO leak detector my insurance company forced me to install indicated that less than 1 gallon a day was leaking and was probably a leaky facet or toilet. The leak detector is currently showing a small leak, which I cannot locate. The previous leaks ended up dripping through the ceiling drywall, this new leak I assume will do the same soon.
Thank you so much for this explanation ! And No, we do not just have to accept it ! It appears it is faulty ! That 50% of new housing is using this stuff is scary when purchasing another house and not knowing if you will have to repipe !
You're right... it's just your opinion. But it isn't as simple as you claim and PEX B is not immune to problems caused by chlorine as the antioxidants added to the PEX (either type ) are sacrificial and ALL PEX is subject to this degradation. Has nothing to do with "undulations" or any other physical characteristic. It's chemistry but only in severe cases will PEX fail in short order. Don't plumb your pool with it. Undulations? That's just nonsense. The manufacturing process of PEX B uses silane chemistry the antioxidant are not exposed to free radical during manufacturing... but PEX A chemistry (using peroxides) is easily compensated by starting with more antioxidants. Even if you think silane chemistry results in more oxidation resistance, that is still chemical composition and not a physical property.
Agree with you 100%. You're obviously knowledgeable in the industry. Nice to see someone who can separate the accurate from the ill-informed. No fault to anyone, I think we're all here trying our best to understand the same thing.
Thanks for sharing this info Joe. I'm about to start construction on a new large home for a client. He prefers that I use copper. Cost is not an issue, but everyone is telling me to use Pex. And it would be much easier - especially since this is rammed earth construction (24" solid exterior and 14" solid interior walls) and running pipe either in the ceiling and down a larger PVC tube in the walls or PVC pipe with Pex fed thru those larger pipes. Copper would be much more difficult, obviously.
I built my home in 2003. All upinor domestic water and total infloor heat. I have replaced at least 12 brass fittings due to failure. I do have somewhat acidic domestic well water that i now treat. At the time i thought the brass fittings would be better than the plastic fittings but i have changed my mind. I do not have all home runs and am waiting for the few brass fittings in the concealed structure to fail. Master plumber with 49 years in the trade until retirement 2 years ago. The good news is that all of the failed fittings were exposed and easily replaced. I would advise to use as many poly fittings as possible.
I 100% totally agree with you.... I am offering people that have wirsbo pipe in their homes a 2 cubic foot back washing carbon filter that we install before the water softener to take out all the chlormines and chlorine in the water..... I think that this is a preventitive measure that could extend the life of the plumbing system
Thank you for the information! I just bought a a Milwaukee expansion tool this year, but have yet to use it on a job (I am returning it asap). Does this happen on white Pex A? I can't believe this is happening? After the polybutelyne pipe disaster we have this. The amount of waste generated from repiping is crazy.
I got into the trade In ‘95 doing copper. Got “forced” to switch to B in ‘08. Did some A in ‘18, was almost convinced it was better, but my area (small town) suppliers don’t carry A, only B. Still doing B with brass fittings and copper smash rings. Personal use I would use L copper, if I was building my dream house I’d use hard K copper. Under slab I sleeve B. Which there has been a lot of slab houses in the last 5 years.
I just re-routed a section of Uponor PEX that I installed 7 years ago and the inside and outside look as good as the day I installed it. I'd be interested in a more scientific look at what is going on, rather than this approach where we have no idea if the PEX was installed properly, stored properly (not exposed to excessive UV light), water conditions, etc.. The video is alarmist, without offering much in the way of evidence, other than some cut open PEX that is repeatedly held up to the camera for 10 minutes. As for the lawsuit, we live in a litigious society.
I have been running a caustic soap liquid (pH>13) for 4 years in clear Pex A pipe (don't know the brand...yet). The chemical will break down the brass fittings in a few years but there has been ZERO attack on the white Pex A 1/2" pipe. You made several references to Breakpoint Chlorination but no clarifications as to what it is or how it is a problem. Is this a process being used prior to delivery or in the building where the problem is being seen ?
About 10 or so years ago the municipal water authorities switched from Chlorine to Chlor-amine (sp) for water purification. Breakpoint apparently is a provider of Chlor-amine. He did very briefly state this in his video.
@@69dblcab That's nuts. Chloramine is a terrible disinfectant. The only advantage it has over free chlorine is that it's very stable and doesn't degrade nearly as much as free chlorine in sunlight. Other than that, it's essentially worthless.
I ve ran miles and miles of copper had a hard time not running straight a particular pipe with nice and shinny joints from properly cleaning flux off the outside of the pipe....nice Ridgid bracing Took me alot of struggle to make loops bend pipe over to nearest stud to snail....trying to teach guys how to drill straight holes or run waste and vents straight....but I uncover way more failure of copper pin holes electrolytes pipe now....and have only uncovered Uponor failure on yes red pipe near hot water tankless unit that temp setting had been over righted and from looks of somebody used a torch and cooked it probably trying to hurry up the pipe memory....1 time! So what ever they are putting in your water or not condition the water I would say DONT WORRY so much about the pipe instead everyone's HEALTH!
I’m a new construction plumber. I’ve plumbed thousands of houses since 1990. Went from copper to cpvc in early 2000’s to pex a in 2016. I always shied away from crimp because the tend to bleed over time. I think its due to thermal expansion of the different materials at different rates. I’m an expansion guy and mainly use uponor. But have been using riifo, legend(pert) lately coarse of the in ability to get uponor as they switched to the clear pipe with colored lettering. Have not used zern. They allow expansion on their pipe now. I know expanding pert and pex b in the winter is not feasible because it splits. I’m just an install monkey, all this is confusing cause who the heck do you listen to? Down south they use cpvc, cali uses pex b…they ALL have a failure point of one reason or another. Copper for me at this point isn’t an option i will offer. The copper has a huge pinhole failure rate now, the stuff is stupidly expensive, and frankly I’m just not going to re-tool to get back into it. Maybe switch to zern and expand? Or maybe this uponor failure is area/water municipality specific. Who the hell knows. But i will add, your like the only uponor fail videos out there, this must be a california chlorine thing. Not really seeing it in the Midwest.
I'm in Alabama. I've been installing PEX since 2005 and can't remember the last time I even used a piece of cpvc except occasionally for a repair. Nowadays we pretty much just grab a shark bite couple and transition to PEX. Typical for us is white PVC underground and PEX above ground. No plastic ever left out in the sun.
Seems like it definitely a chloramine chlorine issue, I've noticed it here as a recently on a few of my projects. Lot of discoloration at the ring and the pipe. Did a job in 2013 had made a repair on a manifold half inch supply on a red hotline. Couldn't figure out why there was a crack a fracture on the actual ring splitting. Yeah it's pretty serious man after all this time basically starting to present itself with the material failure. It's a pretty s***** feeling.
This explains why i am a pex b fan with stainless fittings and why i cut so much of this shit out that's flooding houses. Usually near the fitting but sometimes middle of bloody pipe. Ridiculous for being 6 years old.
Interesting. I purchased my house about 7 years ago. When it was repipled, I had it redone with Upenor-A (if I recall correctly). It was done with all white, and a home-run configuration. I will have to check all my connections next time I am in the crawl space. Got it will be a pain to redo if needed.
I'm not questioning your conclusions but the Uponor pipe I installed in our cottage when I replumbed it back in 11 years ago is still white and hasn't leaked a drop and I have well water with a high concentration of iron. I'd agree the the pipes you sectioned have been attacked/damaged but by what? What was in these systems where this pipe was used that caused this? Any pipe, whether PVC, copper, brass, PEX can be damaged if it's being subjected to some sort of chemical that it was not intended to be used with.
I duplex built in 1947 as copper plumbing so it is 75 years old and still good. 30 years from now there will be a big repipe issue replacing all the plastic.
I think that this problem is more an indication of the almost universal carcinogenic “drinking” water across the US of A, not even a third world country in this respect. Flint water is everywhere and if it eats your pipe, just think of what it does to your body. In Europe which in some places has preserved ancient Roman standards of clean drinking water as the most important public health measure, that problem does not exist.
The Flint, MI water was acidic because of the incompetence of the water utility not treating the new water source with corrosion inhibitors. The low pH water attacked the lead pipes, causing lead to leach into the water. If Flint had treated the water with corrosion inhibitors (phosphates), there would have been no issues. The problem was the pipes, which are lead from being built a long time ago where lead was common practice for water distribution - as long as it's treated. Chicago is one of the largest consumers of phosphates for drinking water treatment. Copper piping is also very harmful under acidic water conditions, as it will also leach into the water. Copper poisoning can cause liver failure and death
@@TierNone_LarperatoR I've had an RO unit in my house for drinking water for at least 20 years. Tastes better than bottled water and RO units are a lot less expensive to buy (and filter replacement too) than it used to be with many competitors out there. Also good to have a remineralizer cartridge on the output of the unit or holding tank for taste.
I believe you said this was due to chlorine in the water. I'm here in Florida and we are inundated with chlorine in the water because the water is so bad. If this holds true, then what better place to test this project. I do home repair and remodeling and was looking into changing from CPVC AND COPPER. Now I'm having second thoughts. I'm still old school. so I'm a copper man myself. Tried and true over many years. Copper isn't perfect, but it lasts longer a whole lot longer than 7 years. Thanks for the great info and the effort to letting us know. I'll keep an eye out as well as an ear for anything pertaining to this. Thanks again.
I repipe homes that are 6 years old all the time. they are copper failures. Copper is not copper any more. Copper made in the USA has recycled copper in it that is hot washed from China. I am not a fan anymore and I purchase copper 6 days a week since 1990.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Sounds good. I'll take your word. This country is so far gone and we don't manufacture products like we used too. So I'm going to go with your recommendation by using Zurn Pex B. Now I have a reason to buy the spreader tool also. Thank you very much for the info.
If you have any concerns about chlorine in your public water supply, then two things you should consider: (1) order yourself an inexpensive test kit and confirm just how much chlorine is in your water and (2) possibly consider installing an active charcoal filter at your water supply entry point. Both are likely to be a lot cheaper steps before spending a lot of money on pipe. If you choose copper, just make sure it is type K or L and not M. The vast majority of copper pipe failure is due to the thinner-walled (and cheaper) type M. But just keep in mind, copper installation is a lot more laborious and expensive than PEX (of any brand). So I would really confirm first if chlorination is really a problem before you make any decision. Be informed. Be wary of stuff you get told on TH-cam. Good luck.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc A couple of decades ago, I worked as a claims adjuster for specialty insurance, one was for homes thru their utility company. We authorized so many repipes for entire zones in FL and PA due to the copper pinhole leaks from the water treatment. At first it was repairs, then as we noticed the pattern, the first time a customer called in for a leak, we have servicers go out and inspect for a repipe. Cheaper in the long run.
@@thebluelunarmonkey was it type m or L that was installed ? Were they on well or city ? Any house on city water has to be type L where I live in New England and that’s due to pressure fluctuation issues. Type m is only rated for 100 psi and we have areas where the standing pressure can be 90psi during the day. Only time I dealt with pin holes was at my brothers house in Maryland, some hack used type m for city water.
Thanks much for the information. A material failure lawsuit should be the same lawsuit. We call it a joinder because whether it's by the joint or the middle of the pipe, it's still a material failure. I'm only a paralegal, which is sort of like a plumber's apprentice two or three years in, so I'm probably just as confused as you.
There may be more to this. It is stated very very clear never in any instance is pex allowed to see light. Natural, florescent, led, nothing. Paint it, insulate it, whatever but uv will damage it. Is it possible it's from that?
@Integrity Repipe inc Chlorine as a desinfection and very aggressive agent was present in drinking water as a standard additive for a long-term before providing some new standards in drinking water preparation. Agree that PEX-b pipes with silane crosslink additives are more chemically stable than PEX-a ones (especially at high temperatures).
Hi Joe - what city did the yellowed PEX come from? I have properties in Orange, Anaheim and Villa Park that had PEX-A installed in 2000-2010 and none are showing that yellowing. I wonder if what you're seeing is related to specific water conditions.
As with all polymers, as they are undergoing their natural degassing, they become more susceptible to degradation. Maybe if the world begs BASF enough, they can formulate a polymer that will remain stable in almost any environment over a longer period of time?
Uponor pipe is a great product. Any home with high pressure and or high chloride content is bound to leak at some point Copper is no different other that the molecular aspects. Anytype of pex or plastic pipe will always create this occurrence. If your repiping a house.. always offer a hole home water purification system in addition to repipe. Not a salt systems as many states outlawed due salt content poluting ground water if its a discharge design. Chlorine and ammonia (common ingredients to treat water) combination makes chloromine . Detrimental to any system out there even copper. What you saying is partially true. The product might be at fault to a degree.. but nothing like quest. Change the quality of your water when you do a repipe. That will change the results drastically.
Damn! As a home inspector I have often wondered when this might happen. Seems every time we invent a thin wall mechanically connected supply line they tend to crack
I did a house in poly before the ban used crimp rings 25 years later a new owner bought the house and had me change out the poly to pex when the gutted the house I looked at the work at all the joints and they were fine no leaks no problems other than it was poly then I did a residential house sprinkler System in Uponor although it had no leaks at the time I do not trust this system you are using Plastic to hold plastic leak proof, do not trust this system use cinch or crimp rings but they even have their own draw backs but over all it works best.
@@jfbeam : Forever in a house should be 70 years. I still like quality copper. Who knows what chemicals from the Pex will leech into drinking water piping in 20 years… Copper is pretty inert material.
Crazy. I caused a whole bunch of trouble when I told one of my company's customer about this situation. His is starting to go after 5 years. I will definitely listen to you if I go off on my own. I bet whole house filters would do a lot to mitigate this. And where are all the pureflow fittings hiding? I'm certain that that's going to be the next thing.
Two points.... One of the very first things I learned about PEX around 20 years ago is that it is easily deteriorated by uv light. You definitely do not want to buy pipe that has been left outside very long. Second point... I've installed miles of PEX, never had an issue or call back using brass or copper fittings with stainless steel pinch rings. The only issue I have seen is pinholes in wirsbo PEX wish I had a service call to repair a leak above a drywall ceiling.
Very true. Coiled PEX comes wrapped in clear plastic wrap. Exposure to UV light deteriorates PEX pipe so that clear plastic wrap prevents UV light from hitting the pipe. Plastic wrap should always stay on, until you use up full roll. ( You start pulling out pipe from inner coil outwards ). Also, PEX should not be stored. It should be used right away, not later than 3 months after purchase. If it is older thant 3 months, don't use it. Also, PEX should not be installed where it is exposed to direct light,. I am working with PEX for over 20 years and never had any problem with it, either. Good to know pin holes in PEX may happen, yet, never seen one, yet. Thank you
I have pex b about 10 yrs old that was installed using cinch rings. No pipe failures but one ring failed at the water heater. The failed ring was the code distance from the heater and was attaching the pex to npt threaded fittings. However a galv nipple was use so the may be galvanic corrosion. This was a repipe from copper that was pin-holing everywhere including over the electric service panel.
Will chloramine cause the same issue to PEX B, or is PEX B more resilient to the chemicals in the water than PEX A?..... Never mind, I just watched the last minute of the video and got my answer, lol lol.
Some municipal water sources "sanitize" the output water from the treatment plant through to the consumer wide with chloramine to presumably reduce coliform and other biological contamination. The problem is that chloramine is a terrible disinfectant. But it's more stable than free chlorine, which makes it cheaper. I'm not sure why this guy is using the term "breakpoint chlorination" (it's most properly used in the use of "shock" chlorination where large concentrations of free chlorine are added to water to drive out the chloramines.
All municipalities add disinfectant to their water. The disinfectant of choice 90% of the time will be chlorine or chloramine (chlorine+ammonia). Chloramine is more stable. Water will have a chlorine demand caused by contaminants and chemistry and that demand must be met in order to have free chlorine available to maintain a residual to protect the water from biological contamination. The point at which this demand is met is its breakpoint. Excess chlorine is available to cause oxidation of many things, mainly using organic material such as plastic. This includes RO filters you may have under your sink. Those always have activated carbon prefilters to remove the chlorine. Not only does your water taste better, it protects the RO membrane, which is highly sensitive to chlorine. What color will plastic turn when oxidized by chlorine? First yellow. Then black. I think he is on to something here. Your mileage will vary depending on your municipality’s chlorine/chloramine dosage and the chlorine demand in your water. That’s why there are plenty of examples of success and mounting examples of failure.
Fantastic video! I'm sorry but I just don't trust A. I really don't like B much better. I rather hard pipe with cpvc. It's a little more of a pain due to its rigidity, but I know when it's in there and protected, it's good. It does get brittle over time. With all pipe there are downfalls I suppose. Copper can become weakened from chemicals and minerals. Cpvc gets dry and brittle. Pex A has the faults you described. Pex B has 4,000 crimps which are each potential fail points in time. So I guess we all have to weigh our options and what pipe works best for us depending on location and what our water is like. Great video again!
" I rather hard pipe with cpvc" Seriously? Why do just go all the way back to galvanized? Like CPVC and Butylene, galv was a huge mistake and just a sign of the times when it was used for everything, including venting!
This is good to know. Was really looking into Pex A, but as soon as I noticed you’re here in the OC and know we do have a high chlorine amount, zI’m second guessing it and leaning more towards Pex B or copper with crimp. We’re wanting to repipe to remove the risk of another slab leak, which is common for the neighborhood.
@@TheNismo03 Understood, but how quickly do each degrade over time due to the chloramine? Is there anything to lower the amount of chloramine before it enters the system?
Sorry for the late response. I do not install Pex A in homes anymore. the best pipe available right now is Zurn Pex B with f1960 cold expansion fittings. over the years I have had many Uponor pipes fail but to this point not any Zurn Pex B failures. the B Pex will resist chlorine and ammonia better than other pipe there are no undulations in the pipe walls. when chlorine and ammonia are manufactured what are they stored in with no failures ever. plastic!
Funny thing about our Wirsbo AquaPEX pipe that we removed. A lot of it looks normal with no degradation. But their were sections where the AquaPEX is discolored and the printing is badly faded. If it were a chlorine problem, I would have suspected that most of the pipe would have deteriorated.
1. Yellowing indicates a decomposition of the plastic. 2. If the yellowing was caused entirely by chlorinated water, the compression ring would not be yellow. Even the tubing below it was not in contact with chlorinated water. 3. Yellowing is also caused by UV light. Fluorescent lights emit UV radiation whose irradiance is equal to or greater than that of sunlight at wavelengths of approximately 290 to 295 nanometers but not at longer wavelengths. 4. UV itself does not cause failures in PEX, but it can accelerate the rate of chlorine failures. Early warning signs of chlorine induced degradation in PEX piping that has been in service can be observed in the “popcorning” of the pipe surface. 5. Chlorine gets aggressive in elevated water temperatures weakening the insides of the pipes and degrading the pipes. 6. PEX-B is inherently a more oxidation-resistant material and generally has the most chlorine resistance. 7. The advantage of PEX is it is inexpensive to buy and install. The only plastic pressure plumbing that can handle the chlorine and UV well is CPVC. CPVC pipe can withstand higher temperatures than PVC or PEX pipe (up to 200 degrees Fahrenheit vs. 140 degrees Fahrenheit) Installation is not so simple unless it isn't done correctly. It is semi-rigid and might require flex loops over longer spans because it expands in length much more. It takes longer for it to be ready for water. CPVC does degrade over time, but has been used for more than 30 years and in some places laying on the desert sand. CPVC does degrade, but much more slowly. I don't like working with it, but I do need to give credit where credit is due. For anyone replacing galvanized or CPVC schedule 40 plumbing, watch out! Traditionally, sizing charts have been done with Schedule 40. The way plumbing worked in the past was 1/2" pipe was designed to flow water as though it were a 1/2" straight pipe and oversized to compensate for average losses from Ts and elbows so you would get at least 1/2" of flow in the system. Thus, the ID of 1/2" normal pipe is .622". 1/2" PEX has an ID of .485". 1/2" copper M is 0.569" ID. The next thing people say is yeah but PEX is smooth inside and especially if you do expansion yada yada yada. The answer is no no and no. It isn't even close. Flow charts you find online show the only significant factor is ID. You will find many people very unhappy after they replaced their galvanized or standard CPVC Schedule 40 with PEX. Next you will hear but with PEX-A and their expansion flows a lot better. They can crow about how their elbows flow 40% better, but keep in mind that is just a 2-inch distance at the elbow where there water has to flow faster in crimp PEX. The rest of the length is the same and tests reveal the difference between PEX-A and PEX-B as a system is small. So if you have a slow crimp PEX system, an expansion PEX system replacement will not fix it. There is a reason they make 5/8" PEX. It takes 5/8" PEX to flow 1/2" Copper M, and it takes 3/4" PEX to keep up with 1/2" Galvanized or any schedule 40. There is a huge manual you can get online that has standard plumbing planning. It is very good. However, watch in their plans what type of pipe they are using in that plan and maximum FPM to design for. Then go to the science sites and you will find what they actually flow in FPM, loses over length, etc. With a 16,000+ sample size, PEX-B outperformed both PEX-A and CPVC in terms of reliability over time. The difference between PEX-A and PEX-B is not expansion vs. crimp. PEX-A is made using a different process that makes it not only more flexible, but also more vulnerable to heat, chlorine, and UV. A lot of things figure into those statistics such as the percentages of getting a good connection. I thought PEX-A would win on that but it didn't. One could argue CPVC wasn't first because of connection issues but that would be pure speculation on my part. They did mention that CPVC has a big advantage over PEX for hot water lines, especially where chlorine is concerned. Hot water recirculation systems are hot all the time.
Interesting. I just replaced a PEX manifold. One line had deteriorated. I never encountered this before. Tubes were not yellowed inside. Manifold has a "W" logo on it. House was built in 2015. The failed tube has calcium inside and on the outside. It looks like the tubing split. Calcium is on the supply side of the tubing and not at the entry of the manifold into the tubing. Oh, well. I'm grateful I wasn't sweating copper in the crawl space. Thanks.
This happens with copper as well. This is due to the dedicated recirculation line (constant water moving 24/7) and chlorine or chloramine in your water. First, cut out and replace the bad section at the elbow. Get your recert line on a timer and get a water filtration system to remove any chlorine or chloramine. For chlorine, you need a Carbon Filter. For Chloramine, you need a Catalytic Carbon filter. I used this system for the chloramine in our water. Removes all the chloramine. Fleck 5600SXT Auto Backwash Catalytic Carbon Filter 1.5 from A Plus Water
I can remember walking through the training and testing facility and hearing them tell us that this stuff was the best thing since sliced bread. I always thought the expansion rings were the best method of installation and always used Wirsbo/Uponor. I have some very old installations (90 percent are heating/radiant) and have heard of no leaks so far. Fingers crossed.
I have the warsbo in the slab of my house 1990 back when it was white and Swedish made, I have well water and no problems that I know of.I always had the highest opinion of warsbo and even upnour. hope I dont have to jack hammer the 4000sf slab up any time soon. jack is no system has ever worked for radiant heating. steel pipes and copper in the fifties all were destroyed by the ph of the concrete.
The problem with plastic piping is that there's so much variance in the mineral makeup of potable water supplies that you can never quite be 100 percent sure if some trace element that's prevalent in the aquifer or reservoir or whatever your water comes from...won't, in the long run, interact with other things and start fouling the pipes. Most people will get away with absolutely no problems but then there's those edge cases..and sometimes clusters of them.
You should be using PEX-C or sometimes called HPEX which has an oxygen barrier to protect the recirculation pumps in radiant floor heating systems..... (Copied) Oxygen Barrier (EVOH) is a strong and flexible cross-linked polyethylene tubing with superior temperature and pressure ratings that is useful in commercial and residential hydronic radiant heating applications. With the same properties as PEX non-barrier pipes. EVOH PEX barrier pipe keeps oxygen and other elements from infiltrating and corrupting the key mechanical components in heating systems.
So my company installs a lot of Uponor Brand Pex and I gotta say when installing a 30,40,50, etc apartment complex, use uponor Milwaukee expansion tool is sooo nice and easy for installation….should we stop using it? It’s a shame that’s what it’s all about in America…gotta build faster and cheaper…money money money
Unless your water is acidic. Then you get copper poisoning, if the water not treated. Copper also pits and later leaks if not carefully deburring cut pipe.
I have installed L copper with solder joints in over 600 houses in the county I live in over the past 32 years.With no problems that I know of yet.Still use it.
I re-routed my plumbing with garden hoses. The thread makes it easy so you don’t need any clamping/crimping Basically you just screw everything in together and use drop ears for 90° turns.
I don't understand your use of the term breakpoint chlorination. Breakpoint chlorination occurs when you increase total chlorine about 10 times above your chlorine residual (total minus free chlorine) to burn out ammonia and nitrites. When done properly, the chloramines dissociate leaving only free chlorine. Generally this refers to pools (human and marine mammal) and perhaps municipal water treatment plants. Are you perhaps using the wrong terminology? Water that is undergoing breakpoint chlorination shouldn't be going into your pipes at home. Interested in your conclusion but confused by the terminology.
Thank you so much for this video. I have never liked the Wirsbo piping before - I do not like them even more now after they have morphed into a new zombie called Uponor.
Also additional question. Chemically Pex B is the same. Smooth pipe may slow the process due to lower reaction surface area but it is same polyethylene chemically.
You'll be fine. He just loves to shill ZurnPex. They've been trying to get their expansion product off the ground for 4+ years now. Pex B doesnt have the hoop strength to maintain the connection.
@@TheNismo03 Not True. the Clear pipe is not new at all it is the same resin and the same old extrusion method from 1970 with new labeling. you can always watch the video I did on the new lineup. same old same old.
Why is it that after so many years of PEX being on the market we're still hearing about all the failures and issues? Failed piping, rodent damage, corroded fittings, failed clamps, etc. My homeowner's insurance company dropped me once they found out my house was still plumbed with galvanized and copper pipe. (Built in 1949). I had been with them for 28 years. Any pipe that I've replaced was replaced with the very same pipe that I took out that lasted 70 years. The city water here is not drinkable here so there's no concern about that, but it is loaded with chlorine. Houses on both sides of me were re-plumbed less than 10 years ago, both have been having major issues almost since day one. They were re-plumbed just before being sold by the old owners. First it was the clamps that were failing, then the fittings themselves, then the rubber o rings in the new fittings were failing. On top of that, the pipes keep perforating and springing leaks. Now my homeowner's insurance company wants me to install PEX??? The explicitly say that they do not insure homes with 'metal' or PVC plumbing. Its been an issue across several companies as well. Why do they still sell PVC, ABS, and CPVC, or Galvanized or copper if its no good or can't be insured? For me, I'm sticking with what works, its my house and I'm not dealing with leaks.
CORRECTION: Not 45 mils diameter, but thickness. At same inside diameter, this does 2 things = 1. Reduces the amount of compression, and 2. Reduces the force exerted on the fitting. RSVP?
Never had any trouble and as a commercial contractor dealing in mostly massive multi family the only time i have seen anything like this is from 1. exposure to UV and 2. Exposure to extreme heat or cold and I mean extreme .
hmmmm, breakpoint chlorination eh .Up here in Canada we use ' soft water ', and the only undulations I am concerned about is if I'm a gonna have any undulating times wid the wife .Seriously, great vid, cuz you have set me off on a little investigation concerning this PEX A producr prior to doing my own house, which contains the banned poly-b piping.
Check the print on the pipe. They will list a bunch of ASTM standards that tell which fittings they are approved for. But in general, PEX-a and b can use all the fitting systems with the following caveat: only a few PEX-b products can use the expansion fittings (like the Zurn expandable PEX-b). When in doubt, check the ASTM list on the pipe print. If you see "F1960", that's expansion. F2159 and F1807 are the poly and brass fittings that can be used with copper crimp or stainless steel press sleeves. ASME 1061 is the Push-to-Connect like SharkBite, but not all PEX wants to play with that system. Check the print on the pipe.
I searched up Zurn Pex B, as he recommended it in the video and comments. The first video that pops up is him talking about Zurn PEX-B failures. This is the only guy I’ve seen talking about Uponor PEX-A failures after months of casual researching different PEX applications and brands. Is he just making these videos for views and ad revenue or what?
I haven't spent much time researching this topic, but the little I've delved into it seems to be related to swimming pools as far as breakpoint chlorination is concerned. I know uponor had problems in the past that were supposed to have been resolved, or maybe still ongoing. Who knows? This is one of the reasons I have tried to stay away from pex as much as possible. I guess I'm not really surprised at all that pex is continuing to have problems with leaks. So has the newer pex a actually been reformulated or the manufacturing process changed to actually address these problems?
Polybutylene had the same problem with chlorine. It ultimately creates micro fractures in the material that become macro fractures. It's not surprising PEX could have a similar problem. One potential issue is municipal water supplies can vary in chlorine concentrations.
Water is a solvent, the biggest solvent and the added chemicals to clean the filthy water we drink and this is what we get. Unfortunately even copper pipe gets eaten by water because if water doesn't have a high enough mineral content water molecules want to bind to everything including polymers that make up the body of the PEX and start pulling it apart breaking bonds and causing either the structure to collapse or holes through the structure. Take a plastic drinking bottle unopened and set it in direct sunlight (speeds up the process) and come back in a few weeks and squeeze the bottle, it will break, this is the same thing that is happening to the PEX, in fact you don't even need to add water to PEX for it to break down, just leave a roll exposed to the elements and you'll get the basic same outcome just from the outside in. Water is amazing because you can't use it only borrow it and never destroy it. Thanks 🙊🙈🙉
Yes water is a "solvent," as is any liquid. But you are confusing the issue when you added sunlight to your argument. It is the UV ( and some visible) component of sunlight that kills plastics and fabrics. It causes "sission" of the products molecular structure. That is what is going on in your "water bottle". How much damage that occurs is wavelength dependent. If the wavelength energy level is higher than the molecular bond energies, you get session. That is why you can't leave Uponor ( or any plastic for that matter ) out in the sun or in the back of the plumbing truck. PS.. all you chemistry majors can correct me in the details. I'm just an EE and my Chem classes were 40 years ago.. Lol
My house is seven years old and I have had two PEX leaks (under the slab) within the span of six weeks. The information provide has been very helpful and with that being said double check your insurance policy when it comes to faulty pipes. Insurance covers water damage caused by the leaking pipe but not the pipe. Those yellow compromised who-knows-what contaminates are coming out pipes is supply water to the kitchen sink, ice maker, shower, bath tubs. Once the leak is fixed and restoration is complete. It would be in your best interest to do your due diligence on the possible cause of the break. Some insurance company may treat it as neglect or ignorance on your part based on your home owner's policy.
Looks like The pipe is failing against hot water or a Temperature hotter than 160° I’ve seen this on boiler piping and I’ve stopped using it because of these reasons
![[TH] RNT vs SPG - VCT Ascension Pacific - Day 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RUTkf8Detj8/mqdefault.jpg)
Interesting video.
I built my home in 1996. It was plumbed with white PEX A to a manifold in the garage. All of the fittings are brass and have a hot water recirculation system connected to the HW side. My home has a crawl space so there are no pipes under the slab. The main water service is 1" PEX A. We did a major remodel 4 years ago and all the walls with fixtures and plumbing pipes were exposed. No issues like you were showing in your video.
We are in the middle of a complete interior tear out of a family vacation home and are planning again to use PEX A and a "smart" recirculation system for the HW that uses sensors to start the pump.
I have overseen the production of 1500 homes that have had PEX A installed in them and the only warranty issues we have are with screws in the pipes or a pipe that was cut. When the houses are plumbed, they remain under test with water lines under pressure and drain lines filled to the top of the vents. We first switched from copper in 1993 when it started getting stolen out of our homes. We then switched to CPVC which was a nightmare. CPVC freezes easily, it fractures easily, and the glued joints fail too often. In 1995 we switched to Wirsbo PEX A and have not looked back. We no longer use manifolds and it's plumbed in a traditional way. No complaints or lawsuits from homeowners. The only complaints we get about plumbing are the low flow fixtures, particularly shower heads. Also get complaints about how long it takes to get HW to the faucets. They do not recommend recirculation systems for tankless or heat pump water heaters unless you have a "smart re-circulation system" which we do offer as an option.
I will tell our warranty team to keep a lookout for the problems you described.
Thanks for the information.
I repiped my plumbing to far end of the house after copper line leaked under the slab this was around 2005 with PEX. I still have some of that stuff not even PEX A or B just says PEX. Never had any leaking and I also run a hot water recirculating pump. I used the cheap watts pump and a GE smart outlet with a motion sensor I have on the wall in 2 bedrooms. I program the smart outlet to run for 30 minutes when it detects motion. Then it is off for 30 minutes. Most of the night and day when we are at work it's not running.
OK - this is why the Uponor PEX is failing. As part of the manufacturing process of the white PEX tube is skinned with a red outer cover. In order to make the red and white bond, the tube is run through a heat tube that fuses the two parts together. This heat process causes the plastic to continue to cross link on a molecular level. The increased cross linking causes the material to become brittle. That is why you will see stress fractures in the location that the assembly tube expands the pipe to fit over the fitting. you will see linear micro cracking at the transition of the pipe/fitting joint just beyond the white ring - in the area that the tube necks down to normal size. I speak from direct experience.
We had a brand new custom home built in 2013 and the Uponor PEX product was used. Blue for cold and red for hot. You will only have the problem with the red. This is due to the continuation of the cross linking of the plastic due to the hot water in the pipe. In the end, the entire hot water system pipe runs had to be removed from the walls, ceiling. All this in a two story home. A real disaster. All that expensive wall texture
Except it also affects the white pipe.
Except that Uponor white also has leaks and cracks... I think your red is more likely to leak than blue because heat exacerbates the premature aging of the pipe, but examples of failed white Uponor are on the web.
I have white pex A that leaked mid pipe. We have chloromine in our water here. And if you watched the pex B video, it's extruded differently. He uses the Pex A fittings and collars for the increased flow over the Pex B fittings restriction from trying to not use expansion in the installation. The B pipe can handle expansion as well as A pipe can.
This material gets used a lot in multi-family or even commercial projects looking to tighten their budget. How long would you say until systems operating under higher temperatures (110-180) will last? I will gladly do my best to talk customers out of using PEX.
A very curious condition of the expansion rings at the 7:00 minute mark. The opinion stated is the pipe is being attacked from within and causing the pipe to turn from white to yellow. How could that be true when the expansion rings, which are NOT in contact with the fluid inside the pipe, be just as uniformly yellowed as the pipe???? That section sure looks like it was yellowed from something external instead of the internal fluid. Age, heat, UV, caustic or acidic air environment, perhaps???
Because it is from the inside and continues to work its way to the outer while traveling through it has an affect on the connections. If it breaks down the interior then it will makes its way to the connection
Omg we just had a carbon copy of a leak in our house from an uponor PEX pipe. Contacting our insurance and class action lawyers, thank you so much for this video.
I appreciate the simplicity and thoroughness of your presentation. I'm always on the lookout for good plumbing information.
I have been using uponor for at least 20 years live in western Pennsylvania. And have found that the splitting seems to occur mostly if the pipe is very cold and it’s expanded. May seem like a coincidence or not but I have had zero leaks from any install that I’m aware of. Thanks for your insight.
Hi plumber brother, another thing that kills pex pipe is sunlight. I lived in florida for 4 years, a couple of my coworkers told me was that a lot of developers bought truck loads of pex straight from uponor and left it all outside as houses and condos were being built. Some pipe sat outside in the sun for a year, I did a few service calls for leaks on pex a. Even the homeowner in a development told me the same thing about having pipe left outside and trying to sue due to leaks, but was to hard to prove.
@@geneticdisorder1900 yes that is another contributing factor. And poly gas tubing has the same issue in fact in western pa our gas companies won’t allow pipe any older than 3 years to be installed and its code that it has to be stored inside or out of direct sunlight. So it’s looking like it’s not defective materials as much as the environmental elements are impacting the integrity!
@Genetic Disorder: Good point. All distributors and users should know that PEX is not intended to be stored outdoors, and that even when stored indoors, PEX should be kept in the original packaging prior to installation for protection against UV/sunlight and other potential hazards. PEX pipe is not to be stored for extended period of time and should be installed within 30 days of exposure to UV light. If subjected to UV exposure for more that 30 days, such PEX material should be discarded and replaced with fresh pipe.
Most Uponor failures are not at the expansion, but literally anywhere on the pipe. Still, making sure the pipe is at least at room temperature before expansion is smart.
I am glad I first bought the PEX B crimper when I started using PEX, forcing me to use all PEX B. So far, I have not heard of the B having any bad leaking problems. I assume at least some of A's problems comes from the pipe being stretched out for the joint fitting, whereas the B seals with a crimped ring without stretching the pipe.
Interesting... Have been working with Upononr PEX-a pipe for over 20 years with no issues. I frequently attach new PEX into existing old PEX pipe so I can see what condition the old PEX is. Never noticed such interior damage as described here. Must be something happening locally, in your region of operation. Uponor discontinued red coated and blue coated pipes couple of years ago, and replaced them with clear pipe with red or blue print. Over 50% of new homes in US are built with PEX pipe, and PEX is choice of materials in my area as well. As far as Class Action Law Suit goes - well, there always be such law suits floating around. In 2021, City of Falsom, CA, filed class action law suit on behalf of 2,000 new homeowners because of pin hole leaks in new copper pipes. Similar Class Action law suit was filed in the well publicized Los Rivero case, filed in 2022 in So.California. Reason, leaking copper pipes. And we don't even wanna start with galvanized pipe and its century old problems. So leaks happen in all available materials - not only PEX. .PEX is a new kid on the block. We just have to accept it. Thank you
I agree I have been using upon for long time and no problems, I am from Orange County CA may be water most clean here!!
Full red AquaPEX is available. I had one of them tell me blue will be available as soon as they find a reliable supplier for the coloring.
If you fully insert and open it can tear
I’m in central Florida and I’ve never seen the inside of pex look like that. I’ve cut pex out on houses with water softener, plain tap, wells, chlorinators, and UV .. 1yr old, 5, 10, etc..
in my area CPVC is king. But I believe he has the best intentions but I feel that it’s Misleading. No plumbing products on the market have never been subject to a case action. NONE. They all have pros and cons.
No, we don't have to 'just accept it'. There would be no progress if we 'just accepted' something that we could otherwise improve.
Thank you for the information.
I’m in south west PA myself. We use a lot of HePex and some AquaPex. We’ve never had any issues with HePex we’ve put in heating system and only once have we had an issue with AquaPex. The location we had the issue with AquaPex was in a municipality that has such high amounts of chlorine in the water that you can smell it gassing out if you put water in a pan and sit it on a counter.
15 years ago I said that stretching pex wasn't a good idea. I'm so glad I Have Never used overpriced uponor garbage.
I'll stick to pex b and my ss camps. 15 years and Not 1 failure....
Always a pleasure to hear the master.
I have a feeling that this piping was exposed to excessive UV and degraded.
People forget that PEX is not to be stored in sunlight or exposed continuously.
Thank you for the information and great video. I was dead set on Uponor pex a expansion. Just received my Milwaukee expansion tool as well. I'm going through your videos now for maybe another option.
pex-a is fine, consider a different brand if you’re concerned.
wow, didn't know about this massive issues thank you Joe, super helpfull
Thank you for putting out this video. I was considering switching to pex A for remodels. Somehow, TH-cam randomly pulled up your video. I don't know if pex A has different brands that may not have a problem, but I will stick with pex B. I have found only one failure with pex B, and that was where someone used a plastic pex fitting with a stainless crimp ring. It completely came off pipe. I appeared to be crimped too close to the end of the pipe and not centered on fitting barbs. I prefer brass fittings and copper crimp rings. The only issue is that sometimes the crimp tool is hard to get into tight spots. I would like to see your preferred fittings and tools. Thanks again.
This is a known issue because of the way that they colored the pipe. All uponor pipe being sold now is without color. This video is just click bait and fear mongering at it's finest.
I’ve been using this 13 years in maine. I have cut into some of the pipe that has highly acidic water after about ten years to do various repairs. Although it becomes harder to expand at ten years after installation it’s still expanding and then contracting and have had zero leaks. I cannot say the same for copper or any other pipe. The water here eats everything but then pex a holds up the best.
I’ve never used it, since it came out I didn’t like it. Glad I’ve never installed any of this junk. Thank you for sharing this, I’ll be showing this to my customers and contractors that ask me for it.
Pex B doesn’t have that problem . Nothing is perfect bro.
@@jennitsu12 nope! B and copper crack or pin hole with copper and some have issues with A i guess. shit happens.
When I built my home 33 years ago I installed Wirsbo in the slab except for one loop I used Stadler PEX C. I was so unsure of this new plastic pipe that I did the radiant on the second floor with copper. Since then I have used PEX A in the snowmelt system on the porch and steps, the dog kennel and a 2400 sf shop. I have never had a leak or any type of failure. I have seen PEX that I left outside uncovered for a few years and it snaps like stale pretzel sticks. I use Uponor exclusively for heating systems as the fittings maintain the ID of the tubing and have less pressure drop. I don't really use it for plumbing as I prefer copper. We have one area here that uses chloramine to sterilize water. That water destroys water softner resin in 10 years and turns anything plastic or rubber into junk.
I am not familiar with oxygen barrier Wirsbow made prior to 1993. I got 2 Uponor Pex A pipe leaks for Christmas. Both where repiped homes 7 years ago.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Here is a short upload of my system, you can see the early Wirsbo manifolds and the PEX C. Stadler was using the electron beam crosslinking at that time. Tried to get a date code off the pipe but it is not legible. It seems the A PEX is having trouble with chlorine, this home has a well so that is no concern but the system id filled with a 30% glycol mixture for over thirty years and that seems to have no effect. Unfortunately the imperfections found in the Zurn piping make it unsuitable for radiant heating systems as repair fittings under slab are unacceptable. th-cam.com/video/CzMDt2YoaSI/w-d-xo.html
Do you have well water or city / chloramine ?
@@mrwdpkr5851 Well water
WOW - am I reeeeeeally glad I've been using Pex B whenever Pex was requested by the customer - this is gonna bring back memories of the Quest fittings failure and lawsuits !!
I built my house in 1992. There is around 3500 feet of Wirsbo hePex in my radiant floor heat of my basement shops and living room. This pipe was colorless translucent with smooth interiors. It looks and is as good as when I installed it. The fittings were brass threaded compression type with internal ferrules. Now, this, of course, does not get a lot of water changes in a closed loop heating service and the iron from the Hypertherm boiler does color the water grey. Now, for domestic water inside, I only use copper with lead free solder. The same goes for my heating headers and water/air heat exchangers.
If I build another building, I would use the same product specifications and construction practices.
I wouldn’t use copper, I’d use pex A or B and install a flow-tech anti-scale system or a whole home filtration system and u should be good according to what he’s saying about the carcinogenic’s causing the pipe to crack
I'm still a believer in copper pipes. I just did a remodel on a 100 year old building. The copper pipes were installed in the early 50s. It was still functioning. The only reason we changed it was to go to bigger supply lines.
Your crazy! The only way copper is worth a shit is if the PH of the water is over 7. Any water with a PH of lower than 7 will have pinholes in copper in just a few years. FACTS!
@bryantaylor4139 there is more to plumbing than repiping houses. Copper is more versatile because it can handle more pressure and vacuum and it can brazed. Copper isn't the best in every situation but neither is pex.
Copper is awesome no debate but way too expensive nowadays. If it were me I'd love copper with propress fittings but talk about pricey!
Thank you Joe, you helped me make the decision to stick with my first decision of using Zurn Pex B, I almost went to Uponor Pex A, because of the flexibility alone. I've been searching online to find more information and came across your video. You very well may have saved me thousands of dollars and a huge headache in the future! Thanks again!
You're thanking him for misleading you?
It isn't as simple as he claims and PEX B is not immune to problems caused by chlorine as the antioxidants added to the PEX (either type ) are sacrificial and ALL PEX is subject to this degradation. Has nothing to do with "undulations" or any other physical characteristic. It's chemistry but only in severe cases will PEX fail in short order. Don't plumb your pool with it.
Undulations? That's just nonsense. The manufacturing process of PEX B uses silane chemistry the antioxidant are not exposed to free radical during manufacturing... but PEX A chemistry (using peroxides) is easily compensated by starting with more antioxidants. Even if you think silane chemistry results in more oxidation resistance, that is still chemical composition and not a physical property.
Then micro-crack problem resulted from the process of getting the colored coatings to bond and that, as stated, decreased the resistance to oxidation. decreased... not eliminated.
I own a plumbing company in Toronto. We service high rise condos throughout the city. We have been running into issue quite often on domestic hot water risers. Pin holes and splits. Just terrible!
Any heat such as hot water will reduce the memory effect of Pex A. How long before a leak? Who knows. Guess 10 years normally but under hot water, maybe as little as 5 years
We have a house that was built in the 2005-2006 time frame with Wirsbo AquaPEX-A white translucent pipe. About 4 years ago, one of the pipes developed a very small crack and started spraying water inside the wall. We had that fixed. Then a year later, another crack / water leak. Then another, and another. We sent about 6 or 8 defective pipes to Uponor and they claim that none of the cracking in the pipes was their responsibility. This has caused so much damage in our house that we've had the house re-piped in the last month (Nov. 2022). With the re-piping, repairs to the walls, texturing, painting, etc. it's cost us over $ 50,000. Most of the Wirsbo piping looks ok, but their are sections where the pipe is discolored and the printing on the pipe is severely faded. All the cracks / leaks have occurred in the sections of the pipe where discoloration occurred.
P.S. A neighbor a few door away, has the same Wirsbo AquaPEX pipe too with same cracking / water leaks. They too have had their house re-piped recently.
It is to bad that you did not call me. You have to prove/ provide evidence to prove your case. Now that the evidence is removed you can no longer prove your case.That being said if you have another neighbor that has a problem call me first. I can teach you how to collect the evidence and have their insurance adjuster call me. What city are you in please. The public likes to believe that it only happens in my area and not in theirs.
Hey Keith, I am going through the warranty process right now with Uponor but they are taking forever and we are at one week a leak now which is really bad. This is obvious that this is a defective pipe issue so it would see that Uponor should cover this. This worries me that you said they would not cover this for you. You had to pay the full $50,000 out of pocket? Did insurance help any?
hi when you re-piped. which one do you use? the copper of pex B again ?
How big is this home square foot 50k seems very high I would have went with type L copper it’s a proven product with a water treatment system
@@brian2100 I had pinholes in my copper all over the house as the water company delivered a lot of air with the water….
I am a master plumber with 28 years of experience.I have been using uponor for around 15 years with zero problems or issues.The only thing i can think of is improper storag before installation.
Wait how long has pex A been available? I thought pex A was a fairly new product in the market?
I got 2 Uponor Pex A failures for Christmas and I just got a call right now of a third!
I have had the brass fittings fail in 15 years, I have never seen a pipe failure.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Chlorinated water I presume? Any failures on Well water?
Also, the caking looks a lot like calcium carbonate precipitation which occurs a lot on surfaces that are subjected to heat and hard water.
The local water here is very hard, so it eats copper pipe from the inside out. The copper pipe in my house was eaten up just as bad that pex.
I installed pex A with a water filtration and softener system. If the water is full of chemicals that destroy piping, it seems like removing the chemicals is the better than trying to find a magical pipe that won’t be damaged by all types of impure water.
I have Uponar AquaPEX used in my home when it was RePiped in 2019. Since then I have had both leaks described in this video, 1st one was right at a joint ring, so small that it took the plumber a week to locate, and repair. 1:27
the next leak was 6 months later, same stretch of pipe but this time 6” from the repaired joint. Both leaks were tiny tiny streams of water, my FLO leak detector my insurance company forced me to install indicated that less than 1 gallon a day was leaking and was probably a leaky facet or toilet. The leak detector is currently showing a small leak, which I cannot locate. The previous leaks ended up dripping through the ceiling drywall, this new leak I assume will do the same soon.
I do appreciate your taking the time to address the cheap pex issues.
Please explain, Uponor pex-a has been in used in Europe since the 1980's and most of europe uses chlorine in their water.
It looks like UV exposure to me.
Thank you so much for this explanation ! And No, we do not just have to accept it ! It appears it is faulty ! That 50% of new housing is using this stuff is scary when purchasing another house and not knowing if you will have to repipe !
You're right... it's just your opinion. But it isn't as simple as you claim and PEX B is not immune to problems caused by chlorine as the antioxidants added to the PEX (either type ) are sacrificial and ALL PEX is subject to this degradation. Has nothing to do with "undulations" or any other physical characteristic. It's chemistry but only in severe cases will PEX fail in short order. Don't plumb your pool with it.
Undulations? That's just nonsense. The manufacturing process of PEX B uses silane chemistry the antioxidant are not exposed to free radical during manufacturing... but PEX A chemistry (using peroxides) is easily compensated by starting with more antioxidants. Even if you think silane chemistry results in more oxidation resistance, that is still chemical composition and not a physical property.
Agree with you 100%. You're obviously knowledgeable in the industry. Nice to see someone who can separate the accurate from the ill-informed. No fault to anyone, I think we're all here trying our best to understand the same thing.
Thanks for sharing this info Joe. I'm about to start construction on a new large home for a client. He prefers that I use copper. Cost is not an issue, but everyone is telling me to use Pex. And it would be much easier - especially since this is rammed earth construction (24" solid exterior and 14" solid interior walls) and running pipe either in the ceiling and down a larger PVC tube in the walls or PVC pipe with Pex fed thru those larger pipes. Copper would be much more difficult, obviously.
I built my home in 2003. All upinor domestic water and total infloor heat. I have replaced at least 12 brass fittings due to failure. I do have somewhat acidic domestic well water that i now treat. At the time i thought the brass fittings would be better than the plastic fittings but i have changed my mind. I do not have all home runs and am waiting for the few brass fittings in the concealed structure to fail. Master plumber with 49 years in the trade until retirement 2 years ago. The good news is that all of the failed fittings were exposed and easily replaced. I would advise to use as many poly fittings as possible.
Yup, it's called "dezinctification"
I wonder if grounding them would help?
I 100% totally agree with you.... I am offering people that have wirsbo pipe in their homes a 2 cubic foot back washing carbon filter that we install before the water softener to take out all
the chlormines and chlorine in the water..... I think that this is a preventitive measure that could extend the life of the plumbing system
Thank you for the information! I just bought a a Milwaukee expansion tool this year, but have yet to use it on a job (I am returning it asap). Does this happen on white Pex A? I can't believe this is happening? After the polybutelyne pipe disaster we have this. The amount of waste generated from repiping is crazy.
I got into the trade In ‘95 doing copper. Got “forced” to switch to B in ‘08. Did some A in ‘18, was almost convinced it was better, but my area (small town) suppliers don’t carry A, only B. Still doing B with brass fittings and copper smash rings. Personal use I would use L copper, if I was building my dream house I’d use hard K copper. Under slab I sleeve B. Which there has been a lot of slab houses in the last 5 years.
That's a major plus for being on a well water system.. No added chemicals to mess with the chemistry of the piping!
I just re-routed a section of Uponor PEX that I installed 7 years ago and the inside and outside look as good as the day I installed it. I'd be interested in a more scientific look at what is going on, rather than this approach where we have no idea if the PEX was installed properly, stored properly (not exposed to excessive UV light), water conditions, etc.. The video is alarmist, without offering much in the way of evidence, other than some cut open PEX that is repeatedly held up to the camera for 10 minutes. As for the lawsuit, we live in a litigious society.
Thank you for this video demonstration and comparison.
I have been running a caustic soap liquid (pH>13) for 4 years in clear Pex A pipe (don't know the brand...yet). The chemical will break down the brass fittings in a few years but there has been ZERO attack on the white Pex A 1/2" pipe.
You made several references to Breakpoint Chlorination but no clarifications as to what it is or how it is a problem. Is this a process being used prior to delivery or in the building where the problem is being seen ?
About 10 or so years ago the municipal water authorities switched from Chlorine to Chlor-amine (sp) for water purification. Breakpoint apparently is a provider of Chlor-amine. He did very briefly state this in his video.
@@69dblcab That's nuts. Chloramine is a terrible disinfectant. The only advantage it has over free chlorine is that it's very stable and doesn't degrade nearly as much as free chlorine in sunlight. Other than that, it's essentially worthless.
Thank you, I'm in the planning stages and this is very helpful
I ve ran miles and miles of copper had a hard time not running straight a particular pipe with nice and shinny joints from properly cleaning flux off the outside of the pipe....nice Ridgid bracing
Took me alot of struggle to make loops bend pipe over to nearest stud to snail....trying to teach guys how to drill straight holes or run waste and vents straight....but I uncover way more failure of copper pin holes electrolytes pipe now....and have only uncovered Uponor failure on yes red pipe near hot water tankless unit that temp setting had been over righted and from looks of somebody used a torch and cooked it probably trying to hurry up the pipe memory....1 time! So what ever they are putting in your water or not condition the water I would say DONT WORRY so much about the pipe instead everyone's HEALTH!
I’m a new construction plumber. I’ve plumbed thousands of houses since 1990. Went from copper to cpvc in early 2000’s to pex a in 2016. I always shied away from crimp because the tend to bleed over time. I think its due to thermal expansion of the different materials at different rates. I’m an expansion guy and mainly use uponor. But have been using riifo, legend(pert) lately coarse of the in ability to get uponor as they switched to the clear pipe with colored lettering. Have not used zern. They allow expansion on their pipe now. I know expanding pert and pex b in the winter is not feasible because it splits. I’m just an install monkey, all this is confusing cause who the heck do you listen to? Down south they use cpvc, cali uses pex b…they ALL have a failure point of one reason or another. Copper for me at this point isn’t an option i will offer. The copper has a huge pinhole failure rate now, the stuff is stupidly expensive, and frankly I’m just not going to re-tool to get back into it. Maybe switch to zern and expand? Or maybe this uponor failure is area/water municipality specific. Who the hell knows. But i will add, your like the only uponor fail videos out there, this must be a california chlorine thing. Not really seeing it in the Midwest.
I'm in Alabama. I've been installing PEX since 2005 and can't remember the last time I even used a piece of cpvc except occasionally for a repair. Nowadays we pretty much just grab a shark bite couple and transition to PEX. Typical for us is white PVC underground and PEX above ground. No plastic ever left out in the sun.
Holy bejesus, CPVC ?!?!?! Don't admit to using that!!!!! 🤣
Seems like it definitely a chloramine chlorine issue, I've noticed it here as a recently on a few of my projects. Lot of discoloration at the ring and the pipe. Did a job in 2013 had made a repair on a manifold half inch supply on a red hotline. Couldn't figure out why there was a crack a fracture on the actual ring splitting. Yeah it's pretty serious man after all this time basically starting to present itself with the material failure. It's a pretty s***** feeling.
He may be the only one making a video about it, but there is a class action law suit, which means that there are thousands of complaints.
This explains why i am a pex b fan with stainless fittings and why i cut so much of this shit out that's flooding houses. Usually near the fitting but sometimes middle of bloody pipe. Ridiculous for being 6 years old.
Interesting. I purchased my house about 7 years ago. When it was repipled, I had it redone with Upenor-A (if I recall correctly). It was done with all white, and a home-run configuration. I will have to check all my connections next time I am in the crawl space. Got it will be a pain to redo if needed.
Thank you for sharing, I appreciate this demonstration.
I'm not questioning your conclusions but the Uponor pipe I installed in our cottage when I replumbed it back in 11 years ago is still white and hasn't leaked a drop and I have well water with a high concentration of iron. I'd agree the the pipes you sectioned have been attacked/damaged but by what? What was in these systems where this pipe was used that caused this? Any pipe, whether PVC, copper, brass, PEX can be damaged if it's being subjected to some sort of chemical that it was not intended to be used with.
I duplex built in 1947 as copper plumbing so it is 75 years old and still good. 30 years from now there will be a big repipe issue replacing all the plastic.
and by then half the plumbers won't know how to solder anymore. be all press fits.
Been doing pex as a certified installer this is interesting but we have been doing pex full on since 97 and have never seen this
I think that this problem is more an indication of the almost universal carcinogenic “drinking” water across the US of A, not even a third world country in this respect. Flint water is everywhere and if it eats your pipe, just think of what it does to your body. In Europe which in some places has preserved ancient Roman standards of clean drinking water as the most important public health measure, that problem does not exist.
The Flint, MI water was acidic because of the incompetence of the water utility not treating the new water source with corrosion inhibitors. The low pH water attacked the lead pipes, causing lead to leach into the water. If Flint had treated the water with corrosion inhibitors (phosphates), there would have been no issues. The problem was the pipes, which are lead from being built a long time ago where lead was common practice for water distribution - as long as it's treated. Chicago is one of the largest consumers of phosphates for drinking water treatment.
Copper piping is also very harmful under acidic water conditions, as it will also leach into the water. Copper poisoning can cause liver failure and death
@@TierNone_LarperatoR I've had an RO unit in my house for drinking water for at least 20 years. Tastes better than bottled water and RO units are a lot less expensive to buy (and filter replacement too) than it used to be with many competitors out there. Also good to have a remineralizer cartridge on the output of the unit or holding tank for taste.
You do know that the Romans used lead pipes
@@josephpimentel4624 I was about go say that
I believe you said this was due to chlorine in the water. I'm here in Florida and we are inundated with chlorine in the water because the water is so bad. If this holds true, then what better place to test this project. I do home repair and remodeling and was looking into changing from CPVC AND COPPER. Now I'm having second thoughts. I'm still old school. so I'm a copper man myself. Tried and true over many years. Copper isn't perfect, but it lasts longer a whole lot longer than 7 years. Thanks for the great info and the effort to letting us know. I'll keep an eye out as well as an ear for anything pertaining to this. Thanks again.
I repipe homes that are 6 years old all the time. they are copper failures. Copper is not copper any more. Copper made in the USA has recycled copper in it that is hot washed from China. I am not a fan anymore and I purchase copper 6 days a week since 1990.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Sounds good. I'll take your word. This country is so far gone and we don't manufacture products like we used too. So I'm going to go with your recommendation by using Zurn Pex B. Now I have a reason to buy the spreader tool also. Thank you very much for the info.
If you have any concerns about chlorine in your public water supply, then two things you should consider: (1) order yourself an inexpensive test kit and confirm just how much chlorine is in your water and (2) possibly consider installing an active charcoal filter at your water supply entry point. Both are likely to be a lot cheaper steps before spending a lot of money on pipe.
If you choose copper, just make sure it is type K or L and not M. The vast majority of copper pipe failure is due to the thinner-walled (and cheaper) type M. But just keep in mind, copper installation is a lot more laborious and expensive than PEX (of any brand). So I would really confirm first if chlorination is really a problem before you make any decision. Be informed. Be wary of stuff you get told on TH-cam. Good luck.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc A couple of decades ago, I worked as a claims adjuster for specialty insurance, one was for homes thru their utility company. We authorized so many repipes for entire zones in FL and PA due to the copper pinhole leaks from the water treatment. At first it was repairs, then as we noticed the pattern, the first time a customer called in for a leak, we have servicers go out and inspect for a repipe. Cheaper in the long run.
@@thebluelunarmonkey was it type m or L that was installed ? Were they on well or city ?
Any house on city water has to be type L where I live in New England and that’s due to pressure fluctuation issues. Type m is only rated for 100 psi and we have areas where the standing pressure can be 90psi during the day. Only time I dealt with pin holes was at my brothers house in Maryland, some hack used type m for city water.
Thanks much for the information. A material failure lawsuit should be the same lawsuit. We call it a joinder because whether it's by the joint or the middle of the pipe, it's still a material failure. I'm only a paralegal, which is sort of like a plumber's apprentice two or three years in, so I'm probably just as confused as you.
There may be more to this. It is stated very very clear never in any instance is pex allowed to see light. Natural, florescent, led, nothing. Paint it, insulate it, whatever but uv will damage it. Is it possible it's from that?
IT IS IN THE WALLS!
@Integrity Repipe inc Chlorine as a desinfection and very aggressive agent was present in drinking water as a standard additive for a long-term before providing some new standards in drinking water preparation.
Agree that PEX-b pipes with silane crosslink additives are more chemically stable than PEX-a ones (especially at high temperatures).
Hi Joe - what city did the yellowed PEX come from? I have properties in Orange, Anaheim and Villa Park that had PEX-A installed in 2000-2010 and none are showing that yellowing. I wonder if what you're seeing is related to specific water conditions.
As with all polymers, as they are undergoing their natural degassing, they become more susceptible to degradation. Maybe if the world begs BASF enough, they can formulate a polymer that will remain stable in almost any environment over a longer period of time?
Uponor pipe is a great product.
Any home with high pressure and or high chloride content is bound to leak at some point
Copper is no different other that the molecular aspects.
Anytype of pex or plastic pipe will always create this occurrence.
If your repiping a house.. always offer a hole home water purification system in addition to repipe.
Not a salt systems as many states outlawed due salt content poluting ground water if its a discharge design.
Chlorine and ammonia (common ingredients to treat water) combination makes chloromine . Detrimental to any system out there even copper.
What you saying is partially true.
The product might be at fault to a degree.. but nothing like quest.
Change the quality of your water when you do a repipe.
That will change the results drastically.
Damn! As a home inspector I have often wondered when this might happen. Seems every time we invent a thin wall mechanically connected supply line they tend to crack
Bottom line... nothing last forever.
I did a house in poly before the ban used crimp rings 25 years later a new owner bought the house and had me change out the poly to pex when the gutted the house I looked at the work at all the joints and they were fine no leaks no problems other than it was poly
then I did a residential house sprinkler System in Uponor although it had no leaks at the time I do not trust this system you are using Plastic to hold plastic leak proof, do not trust this system use cinch or crimp rings but they even have their own draw backs but over all it works best.
@@jfbeam STAINLESS
@@jfbeam : Forever in a house should be 70 years. I still like quality copper. Who knows what chemicals from the Pex will leech into drinking water piping in 20 years… Copper is pretty inert material.
@@ZAPATTUBE fact
Crazy. I caused a whole bunch of trouble when I told one of my company's customer about this situation. His is starting to go after 5 years. I will definitely listen to you if I go off on my own. I bet whole house filters would do a lot to mitigate this. And where are all the pureflow fittings hiding? I'm certain that that's going to be the next thing.
Two points.... One of the very first things I learned about PEX around 20 years ago is that it is easily deteriorated by uv light. You definitely do not want to buy pipe that has been left outside very long. Second point... I've installed miles of PEX, never had an issue or call back using brass or copper fittings with stainless steel pinch rings. The only issue I have seen is pinholes in wirsbo PEX wish I had a service call to repair a leak above a drywall ceiling.
Very true. Coiled PEX comes wrapped in clear plastic wrap. Exposure to UV light deteriorates PEX pipe so that clear plastic wrap prevents UV light from hitting the pipe. Plastic wrap should always stay on, until you use up full roll. ( You start pulling out pipe from inner coil outwards ). Also, PEX should not be stored. It should be used right away, not later than 3 months after purchase. If it is older thant 3 months, don't use it. Also, PEX should not be installed where it is exposed to direct light,. I am working with PEX for over 20 years and never had any problem with it, either. Good to know pin holes in PEX may happen, yet, never seen one, yet. Thank you
I have repaired many carbon fiber fittings cracked…
I have pex b about 10 yrs old that was installed using cinch rings. No pipe failures but one ring failed at the water heater. The failed ring was the code distance from the heater and was attaching the pex to npt threaded fittings. However a galv nipple was use so the may be galvanic corrosion. This was a repipe from copper that was pin-holing everywhere including over the electric service panel.
Hi Joe: My house is on a rainwater collection system and it uses UV light, not any chlorination or bleach. I hope that my pipe will be alright 👍🏽.
Will chloramine cause the same issue to PEX B, or is PEX B more resilient to the chemicals in the water than PEX A?..... Never mind, I just watched the last minute of the video and got my answer, lol lol.
Was this piping for a pool? Otherwise why was breakpoint chlorination applied through these pipes?
Some municipal water sources "sanitize" the output water from the treatment plant through to the consumer wide with chloramine to presumably reduce coliform and other biological contamination. The problem is that chloramine is a terrible disinfectant. But it's more stable than free chlorine, which makes it cheaper. I'm not sure why this guy is using the term "breakpoint chlorination" (it's most properly used in the use of "shock" chlorination where large concentrations of free chlorine are added to water to drive out the chloramines.
All municipalities add disinfectant to their water. The disinfectant of choice 90% of the time will be chlorine or chloramine (chlorine+ammonia). Chloramine is more stable. Water will have a chlorine demand caused by contaminants and chemistry and that demand must be met in order to have free chlorine available to maintain a residual to protect the water from biological contamination. The point at which this demand is met is its breakpoint. Excess chlorine is available to cause oxidation of many things, mainly using organic material such as plastic. This includes RO filters you may have under your sink. Those always have activated carbon prefilters to remove the chlorine. Not only does your water taste better, it protects the RO membrane, which is highly sensitive to chlorine. What color will plastic turn when oxidized by chlorine? First yellow. Then black. I think he is on to something here. Your mileage will vary depending on your municipality’s chlorine/chloramine dosage and the chlorine demand in your water. That’s why there are plenty of examples of success and mounting examples of failure.
Fantastic video! I'm sorry but I just don't trust A. I really don't like B much better. I rather hard pipe with cpvc. It's a little more of a pain due to its rigidity, but I know when it's in there and protected, it's good. It does get brittle over time. With all pipe there are downfalls I suppose. Copper can become weakened from chemicals and minerals. Cpvc gets dry and brittle. Pex A has the faults you described. Pex B has 4,000 crimps which are each potential fail points in time. So I guess we all have to weigh our options and what pipe works best for us depending on location and what our water is like. Great video again!
" I rather hard pipe with cpvc" Seriously? Why do just go all the way back to galvanized? Like CPVC and Butylene, galv was a huge mistake and just a sign of the times when it was used for everything, including venting!
This is good to know. Was really looking into Pex A, but as soon as I noticed you’re here in the OC and know we do have a high chlorine amount, zI’m second guessing it and leaning more towards Pex B or copper with crimp. We’re wanting to repipe to remove the risk of another slab leak, which is common for the neighborhood.
High chlorine will do the same to any pipe you install.
@@TheNismo03 Understood, but how quickly do each degrade over time due to the chloramine? Is there anything to lower the amount of chloramine before it enters the system?
@@TheDrewfallin carbon filtration
Sorry for the late response. I do not install Pex A in homes anymore. the best pipe available right now is Zurn Pex B with f1960 cold expansion fittings. over the years I have had many Uponor pipes fail but to this point not any Zurn Pex B failures. the B Pex will resist chlorine and ammonia better than other pipe there are no undulations in the pipe walls. when chlorine and ammonia are manufactured what are they stored in with no failures ever. plastic!
Funny thing about our Wirsbo AquaPEX pipe that we removed. A lot of it looks normal with no degradation. But their were sections where the AquaPEX is discolored and the printing is badly faded. If it were a chlorine problem, I would have suspected that most of the pipe would have deteriorated.
I never would use the stuff. I didn't like it from the beginning.
Nice video.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge
1. Yellowing indicates a decomposition of the plastic.
2. If the yellowing was caused entirely by chlorinated water, the compression ring would not be yellow. Even the tubing below it was not in contact with chlorinated water.
3. Yellowing is also caused by UV light. Fluorescent lights emit UV radiation whose irradiance is equal to or greater than that of sunlight at wavelengths of approximately 290 to 295 nanometers but not at longer wavelengths.
4. UV itself does not cause failures in PEX, but it can accelerate the rate of chlorine failures. Early warning signs of chlorine induced degradation in PEX piping that has been in service can be observed in the “popcorning” of the pipe surface.
5. Chlorine gets aggressive in elevated water temperatures weakening the insides of the pipes and degrading the pipes.
6. PEX-B is inherently a more oxidation-resistant material and generally has the most chlorine resistance.
7. The advantage of PEX is it is inexpensive to buy and install. The only plastic pressure plumbing that can handle the chlorine and UV well is CPVC. CPVC pipe can withstand higher temperatures than PVC or PEX pipe (up to 200 degrees Fahrenheit vs. 140 degrees Fahrenheit) Installation is not so simple unless it isn't done correctly. It is semi-rigid and might require flex loops over longer spans because it expands in length much more. It takes longer for it to be ready for water. CPVC does degrade over time, but has been used for more than 30 years and in some places laying on the desert sand. CPVC does degrade, but much more slowly. I don't like working with it, but I do need to give credit where credit is due.
For anyone replacing galvanized or CPVC schedule 40 plumbing, watch out! Traditionally, sizing charts have been done with Schedule 40. The way plumbing worked in the past was 1/2" pipe was designed to flow water as though it were a 1/2" straight pipe and oversized to compensate for average losses from Ts and elbows so you would get at least 1/2" of flow in the system. Thus, the ID of 1/2" normal pipe is .622". 1/2" PEX has an ID of .485". 1/2" copper M is 0.569" ID. The next thing people say is yeah but PEX is smooth inside and especially if you do expansion yada yada yada. The answer is no no and no. It isn't even close. Flow charts you find online show the only significant factor is ID. You will find many people very unhappy after they replaced their galvanized or standard CPVC Schedule 40 with PEX. Next you will hear but with PEX-A and their expansion flows a lot better. They can crow about how their elbows flow 40% better, but keep in mind that is just a 2-inch distance at the elbow where there water has to flow faster in crimp PEX. The rest of the length is the same and tests reveal the difference between PEX-A and PEX-B as a system is small. So if you have a slow crimp PEX system, an expansion PEX system replacement will not fix it. There is a reason they make 5/8" PEX. It takes 5/8" PEX to flow 1/2" Copper M, and it takes 3/4" PEX to keep up with 1/2" Galvanized or any schedule 40.
There is a huge manual you can get online that has standard plumbing planning. It is very good. However, watch in their plans what type of pipe they are using in that plan and maximum FPM to design for. Then go to the science sites and you will find what they actually flow in FPM, loses over length, etc.
With a 16,000+ sample size, PEX-B outperformed both PEX-A and CPVC in terms of reliability over time. The difference between PEX-A and PEX-B is not expansion vs. crimp. PEX-A is made using a different process that makes it not only more flexible, but also more vulnerable to heat, chlorine, and UV. A lot of things figure into those statistics such as the percentages of getting a good connection. I thought PEX-A would win on that but it didn't. One could argue CPVC wasn't first because of connection issues but that would be pure speculation on my part. They did mention that CPVC has a big advantage over PEX for hot water lines, especially where chlorine is concerned. Hot water recirculation systems are hot all the time.
I like the SiouxChief Power Pex, it’s a pex b rated for 1960 expansion with high chlorine resistance.
Interesting. I just replaced a PEX manifold. One line had deteriorated. I never encountered this before. Tubes were not yellowed inside. Manifold has a "W" logo on it. House was built in 2015. The failed tube has calcium inside and on the outside. It looks like the tubing split. Calcium is on the supply side of the tubing and not at the entry of the manifold into the tubing. Oh, well. I'm grateful I wasn't sweating copper in the crawl space. Thanks.
This happens with copper as well. This is due to the dedicated recirculation line (constant water moving 24/7) and chlorine or chloramine in your water. First, cut out and replace the bad section at the elbow. Get your recert line on a timer and get a water filtration system to remove any chlorine or chloramine. For chlorine, you need a Carbon Filter. For Chloramine, you need a Catalytic Carbon filter. I used this system for the chloramine in our water. Removes all the chloramine. Fleck 5600SXT Auto Backwash Catalytic Carbon Filter 1.5 from A Plus Water
This sounds more like the problem, not so much the pipe
10K on a repipe?? I did it myself for $1700. Copper pipe. Plumbers are getting rich on overcharging
That's why I use good old fashioned copper pipe. And NO sharkbite fittings!
ME TOO, BRO.
I can remember walking through the training and testing facility and hearing them tell us that this stuff was the best thing since sliced bread. I always thought the expansion rings were the best method of installation and always used Wirsbo/Uponor. I have some very old installations (90 percent are heating/radiant) and have heard of no leaks so far. Fingers crossed.
I have the warsbo in the slab of my house 1990 back when it was white and Swedish made, I have well water and no problems that I know of.I always had the highest opinion of warsbo and even upnour. hope I dont have to jack hammer the 4000sf slab up any time soon. jack is no system has ever worked for radiant heating. steel pipes and copper in the fifties all were destroyed by the ph of the concrete.
The problem with plastic piping is that there's so much variance in the mineral makeup of potable water supplies that you can never quite be 100 percent sure if some trace element that's prevalent in the aquifer or reservoir or whatever your water comes from...won't, in the long run, interact with other things and start fouling the pipes. Most people will get away with absolutely no problems but then there's those edge cases..and sometimes clusters of them.
@@chriskeep9461 Radiant heat is (generally) a closed system, so chloramines are only introduced when you fill or flush the system.
You should be using PEX-C or sometimes called HPEX which has an oxygen barrier to protect the recirculation pumps in radiant floor heating systems..... (Copied) Oxygen Barrier (EVOH) is a strong and flexible cross-linked polyethylene tubing with superior temperature and pressure ratings that is useful in commercial and residential hydronic radiant heating applications. With the same properties as PEX non-barrier pipes. EVOH PEX barrier pipe keeps oxygen and other elements from infiltrating and corrupting the key mechanical components in heating systems.
@@billybob7275Oxygen barrier pex or “HePex” is not Pex C. It’s just a different variation of Pex A.
So my company installs a lot of Uponor Brand Pex and I gotta say when installing a 30,40,50, etc apartment complex, use uponor Milwaukee expansion tool is sooo nice and easy for installation….should we stop using it? It’s a shame that’s what it’s all about in America…gotta build faster and cheaper…money money money
I wish you success at getting their attention. This is a terrifying ticking timebomb in our walls.
So if My water is supplied by my own water well. Then this should not be an issue for my PEX a lines??????????????? Concerned!!!!!
I still use black steel for gas and copper sweat for supply water. PVC is ok for waste. It cost more but I don't care.
CORRECT
I stay with copper L for drinking water .copper M for heating hot water boilers . I like solidering copper better than pro press .
Unless your water is acidic. Then you get copper poisoning, if the water not treated. Copper also pits and later leaks if not carefully deburring cut pipe.
@@bobbray9666 I debur the pipe
I have installed L copper with solder joints in over 600 houses in the county I live in over the past 32 years.With no problems that I know of yet.Still use it.
I re-routed my plumbing with garden hoses.
The thread makes it easy so you don’t need any clamping/crimping
Basically you just screw everything in together and use drop ears for 90° turns.
I don't understand your use of the term breakpoint chlorination. Breakpoint chlorination occurs when you increase total chlorine about 10 times above your chlorine residual (total minus free chlorine) to burn out ammonia and nitrites. When done properly, the chloramines dissociate leaving only free chlorine. Generally this refers to pools (human and marine mammal) and perhaps municipal water treatment plants. Are you perhaps using the wrong terminology? Water that is undergoing breakpoint chlorination shouldn't be going into your pipes at home. Interested in your conclusion but confused by the terminology.
Thank you so much for this video.
I have never liked the Wirsbo piping before - I do not like them even more now after they have morphed into a new zombie called Uponor.
Also additional question. Chemically Pex B is the same. Smooth pipe may slow the process due to lower reaction surface area but it is same polyethylene chemically.
The basic polymer is the same, but the crosslinking involved changes things.
Sir. I'm installing this stuff. I love it. Had my super buy the whole crew, guns. Knowing this now makes me uncertain... thank you for the heads up.
I contacted Joe, and he told me to use Zurn Pex B with F1960 expansion fittings.
Hi James.There are now 2 class action lawsuits Colorado and California. Hi Brian sorry I cut you off by accident my bad
You'll be fine. He just loves to shill ZurnPex. They've been trying to get their expansion product off the ground for 4+ years now. Pex B doesnt have the hoop strength to maintain the connection.
Uponor is just fine ever since they switched to clear pipe. You realize zurn has class action law suits as well right?
@@TheNismo03 Not True. the Clear pipe is not new at all it is the same resin and the same old extrusion method from 1970 with new labeling. you can always watch the video I did on the new lineup. same old same old.
Why is it that after so many years of PEX being on the market we're still hearing about all the failures and issues? Failed piping, rodent damage, corroded fittings, failed clamps, etc.
My homeowner's insurance company dropped me once they found out my house was still plumbed with galvanized and copper pipe. (Built in 1949). I had been with them for 28 years.
Any pipe that I've replaced was replaced with the very same pipe that I took out that lasted 70 years. The city water here is not drinkable here so there's no concern about that, but it is loaded with chlorine.
Houses on both sides of me were re-plumbed less than 10 years ago, both have been having major issues almost since day one. They were re-plumbed just before being sold by the old owners. First it was the clamps that were failing, then the fittings themselves, then the rubber o rings in the new fittings were failing. On top of that, the pipes keep perforating and springing leaks.
Now my homeowner's insurance company wants me to install PEX???
The explicitly say that they do not insure homes with 'metal' or PVC plumbing.
Its been an issue across several companies as well.
Why do they still sell PVC, ABS, and CPVC, or Galvanized or copper if its no good or can't be insured?
For me, I'm sticking with what works, its my house and I'm not dealing with leaks.
Great job, thank you.
CORRECTION: Not 45 mils diameter, but thickness. At same inside diameter, this does 2 things = 1. Reduces the amount of compression, and 2. Reduces the force exerted on the fitting. RSVP?
Never had any trouble and as a commercial contractor dealing in mostly massive multi family the only time i have seen anything like this is from 1. exposure to UV and 2. Exposure to extreme heat or cold and I mean extreme .
it would be helpful if the video explained what breakpoint chlorination is.
Thanks for making this video 👍👍👍👍
hmmmm, breakpoint chlorination eh .Up here in Canada we use ' soft water ', and the only undulations I am concerned about is if I'm a gonna have any undulating times wid the wife .Seriously, great vid, cuz you have set me off on a little investigation concerning this PEX A producr prior to doing my own house, which contains the banned poly-b piping.
Can you use the same fittings in PeX B as you do the A? I’ve not tried it so just wondering
Check the print on the pipe. They will list a bunch of ASTM standards that tell which fittings they are approved for. But in general, PEX-a and b can use all the fitting systems with the following caveat: only a few PEX-b products can use the expansion fittings (like the Zurn expandable PEX-b). When in doubt, check the ASTM list on the pipe print. If you see "F1960", that's expansion. F2159 and F1807 are the poly and brass fittings that can be used with copper crimp or stainless steel press sleeves. ASME 1061 is the Push-to-Connect like SharkBite, but not all PEX wants to play with that system. Check the print on the pipe.
My house in on well, 5 year old pex. all white. plumber uses electrical tape to mark the lines here and there.
I searched up Zurn Pex B, as he recommended it in the video and comments.
The first video that pops up is him talking about Zurn PEX-B failures.
This is the only guy I’ve seen talking about Uponor PEX-A failures after months of casual researching different PEX applications and brands.
Is he just making these videos for views and ad revenue or what?
I haven't spent much time researching this topic, but the little I've delved into it seems to be related to swimming pools as far as breakpoint chlorination is concerned. I know uponor had problems in the past that were supposed to have been resolved, or maybe still ongoing. Who knows? This is one of the reasons I have tried to stay away from pex as much as possible. I guess I'm not really surprised at all that pex is continuing to have problems with leaks. So has the newer pex a actually been reformulated or the manufacturing process changed to actually address these problems?
Polybutylene had the same problem with chlorine. It ultimately creates micro fractures in the material that become macro fractures. It's not surprising PEX could have a similar problem. One potential issue is municipal water supplies can vary in chlorine concentrations.
So where those ones that where yellowed on the outside exposed to uv somehow?
Water is a solvent, the biggest solvent and the added chemicals to clean the filthy water we drink and this is what we get.
Unfortunately even copper pipe gets eaten by water because if water doesn't have a high enough mineral content water molecules want to bind to everything including polymers that make up the body of the PEX and start pulling it apart breaking bonds and causing either the structure to collapse or holes through the structure.
Take a plastic drinking bottle unopened and set it in direct sunlight (speeds up the process) and come back in a few weeks and squeeze the bottle, it will break, this is the same thing that is happening to the PEX, in fact you don't even need to add water to PEX for it to break down, just leave a roll exposed to the elements and you'll get the basic same outcome just from the outside in.
Water is amazing because you can't use it only borrow it and never destroy it.
Thanks 🙊🙈🙉
Yes water is a "solvent," as is any liquid.
But you are confusing the issue when you added sunlight to your argument.
It is the UV ( and some visible) component of sunlight that kills plastics and fabrics. It causes "sission" of the products molecular structure. That is what is going on in your "water bottle".
How much damage that occurs is wavelength dependent. If the wavelength energy level is higher than the molecular bond energies, you get session.
That is why you can't leave Uponor ( or any plastic for that matter ) out in the sun or in the back of the plumbing truck.
PS.. all you chemistry majors can correct me in the details. I'm just an EE and my Chem classes were 40 years ago..
Lol
My house is seven years old and I have had two PEX leaks (under the slab) within the span of six weeks. The information provide has been very helpful and with that being said double check your insurance policy when it comes to faulty pipes. Insurance covers water damage caused by the leaking pipe but not the pipe. Those yellow compromised who-knows-what contaminates are coming out pipes is supply water to the kitchen sink, ice maker, shower, bath tubs. Once the leak is fixed and restoration is complete. It would be in your best interest to do your due diligence on the possible cause of the break. Some insurance company may treat it as neglect or ignorance on your part based on your home owner's policy.
Looks like The pipe is failing against hot water or a Temperature hotter than 160° I’ve seen this on boiler piping and I’ve stopped using it because of these reasons
Why are the fittings so yellow? even PVC you aren't suppose to leave out unprotected.