@@goalie2998 I think he was meaning how nicely labelled and designed the lines were, as opposed to most plumbing installations where the pipes are Tee'd in every direction, no markers, minimal shut off valves. Then again i've seen electrican installations that could be included into that description and where "installed by plumbers".
For a larger home (or any home really) while the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful as the system above, and eliminates the need for every hot water run to a bathroom needed to evacuate an waiting.
We did something similar. Main trunk line to the upstairs feeding a manifold there. Then each of the 4 bathrooms has a supply from that manifold. Recirculating line to that manifold. The master and kids bathrooms are very close to the manifold so hot water is almost instant. The kitchen also has a recirculating line. A little more complex but I like the ability to shut off to all the rooms from a “central” location. Has come in handy already.
The situation you described here is another typical plumbing layout known as "trunk and branch". The benefits of Truck and Branch is that you use less pipe, however, with a "home-run" system (like in the video) you don't send any extra hot water to a fixture than needed.
You know, if you people built showers for water volume instead of water pressure, many teens and adults would take a lot shorter showers. It's that exact control methodology that had me taking forever in the shower controlled by my dad, instead of the 2-minute showers in the house owned by my mother. They said the same of his step-daughter, too. Mere water delivery, and water pressure, is not 'plumbing done right'- water volume at sinks and showers is. I've since proven this as an adult. California regulations can go screw themselves - the rest of the country isn't hurting for water, not to the degree that taking quick showers - made quick by water volume - is ever going to be a problem.
I have had this very manifold system in my house for over 16 years and LOVE it. I did all the plumbing myself and was very easy to do. It does eliminate the shutoffs at each fixture which in my experience many times need replaced about the time you need to use them so you have to do the whole-house shutoff thing anyway. It was VERY nice to just turn off one 'circuit' and change out a faucet recently when I needed to do that.
"... need replaced about the time you need to use them ..." That resonates with me soooo much - I've had that at two different houses, though not with valves at the fixtures. In one, cpvc gate valves (which I didn't know were a thing) didn't shut off completely because overzealous application of primer/glue had warped them. In the other, the house's main shutoff was a brass gate valve. Apparently someone hadn't opened it quite all the way; motion imparted from running water caused grooves to be worn in the mating surfaces. Once again it looked to be in good condition and I expected it to work. I had to do a bit of digging, but fortunately the street valve actually did function.
I imagine you would still want a water shutoff on things like toilets and sinks because you'll still have water in the lines that will make a mess out of your bathroom and under your sink
When a water leak starts spraying you don't want to take the time to go all the way to your garage/basement/utility room to shut it off. Right at the fixture is fastest for damage control.
I feel like after a while , we will find enough information in his video to walk you through how to build a new house from scratch. That was part of the plumbing chapter.
My preference for ad placement would be right after the title card (i.e. intro->title card->ad->rest of the video). Having a unrelated ad in the middle of the content was a bit jarring.
@@billsherman6129 Agreed - Matt next time say FORWARD slash... think of this '\' as leaning back, thus a back slash and this '/' as leaning forward, thus a forward slash. Otherwise a great video as always... thanks!
"Beautiful Install"??? Someone needs to read the installation standard for Viega ManaBloc. The PEX needs to come straight off the fittings (horizontally and vertically), then be secured 4-6 inches from the manifold, BEFORE the tubing bends to prevent putting pressure on the manifold fittings. It's right there in the "viega-pex-installation-manual". This installation was not done in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
You are correct. My Renovator made the plumbers redo the manifolds, so the PEX tubing were horizontal, supported and were not subject to gravity. Since it was done 9 years ago, I hope the plastic holds as i bet the products are better now.
The way this was done is completely acceptable. There’s barely a bend. And if ya wanna get technical they’re straight for a pretty good distance. Also, the gravity of the system puts a lot more stress on the manifold fittings.
@@thomasrudder9639 Then you have a very different opinion than the engineers who designed it and the people who manufacture it. Their installation standards for the Manabloc are unambiguous and this installation does not meet their standard. If the Manabloc and tubing are properly aligned and secured, there will be no stress on the manifold fittings because the fittings will not be under tension nor will they be supporting the load. Read the manual. Argue with them if you disagree.
Yeah. There are even videos available on TH-cam by Viega explaining steps in proper install. It would appear Matt may want to, at the very least, have someone else (seeing how he doesn't have time to shop) research products prior to giving praise.
Different animal altogether, and you'll be using PEX type A (if you're smart) for in-floor heating. We were installing Wirsbo PEX radiant systems as early as the mid '80s and it was a steep learning curve. Have it designed by a professional and don't try for miracles (pushing radiant heat through a plywood subfloor covered with hardwood... yeah, it's 'possible'... people do it all the time. Then they complain for a thousand reasons... heat can't keep up... flooring moves abnormally... hot spots at the pipe.... yadda yadda. Radiant floors should be installed in some kind of thermal mass, period... not stapled up under a wooden subfloor. Just my .02.
I put this in my house 8 years ago. The time to fixture was a consideration in my design so for any small fixtures like standard sink faucets, dishwasher, clothes washer, I used the outlet adapter that converts to 3/8" at the mana-bloc. Also, I used 2 - 1/2" colds and 2 - 1/2" hots for the whirlpool tub in conjunction with 3/4" valving so the tub fills very fast. I insulated the pipe from the heater.
Waiting 15-25 seconds for hot is nothing compared to where I grew up and we had to wait a minute or three for the oil furnace to "wake up" and start heating water. And how much more is the PEX run than a copper run? Not much, I think. If you want the fastest hot water, you need on-demand hot water at or near the point of use, and that is a different animal than PEX vs copper. - - And you leave out, or under-emphasize, the most important reason to use a manifold. Pressure and temperature equalization when multiple taps/appliances are being used.
I like when they set these up in nodules, so you would actually charge the specific room like one restroom. Still is nice you only shut down a single room vs the house.
@@garyring8306 🤣🤣🤣 lol your clearly not a builder. I am and those dedicated shut off valves are trash and fail often. It's nice to shut off areas to replace valves or to just keep off if not in use. It also reduces runs and is more efficient.
Major negatives about these manifold systems you did not address Matt. 1.There is *much* more water pipe in these systems. 2.The manifolds I have worked with were *not* rebuildable...the entire manablock had to be replaced. 3.The maniblocks/valves are fragile, and valve stacks use O rings between each one. Those will probably be a problem as these age. I like Pex though. Good stuff.
Matt, one option in Manabloc's system is to go to 3/8" lines for all faucets and lower flow fixtures (depending on code, it could theoretically serve fixtures up to 3.0 gpm). That way, your wait time actually goes down compared to a trunk and branch system. Of course, any large volume fixtures (shower, washing machine, etc) still gets 1/2". I've installed this system in several small multifamily buildings and the occupants love it.
I also did a 3/8" manabloc install (except for a few fixtures - bathtub, washing machine, hose bibs) on a very old house... 3/8" saves water and the manabloc is hugely helpful at balancing out water pressure drops when multiple fixtures are open (city line is 1/2"). I would probably do as you suggested if I were building a new home. One additional thing I would suggest is copper to the kitchen sink... the pex gives my water a "plastic water bottle in the hot sun" taste.
You actually have to run loaded calculations to say whether or not a pipe size will be able to serve the fixture correctly or not in a system. This is typical in plumbing where people don't consider math in terms of flow rates, demand and the total fixture GPM. What happens when you shoot off the hip is sometimes you get lucky and many times you have flow issues where if more than one fixture is run at the same time a noticeable flow rate drop occurs... the more you run simultaneously the worse the flow. In homes 1500sf & up this is typically a big scale problem. Rarely is the initial plumber called back on new construction because unless the owner understands this is a design issue and catches it soon... it usually ends up as a service call. This is a really bad level of service to the customer. Engineering for electrical & plumbing should be running load calculations and designing the system accordingly so that the demand is met for not only each fixture but the whole house. That is the beginning of providing good service.
@@btownb4462 If by pipe size you mean the supply pipe coming into the house, I agree... my house is 90 years old, and they certainly didn't do any real planning or calculation, it probably should've been piped in at 3/4". But on a per fixture level, I'd say if the fixture is flow limited (like most faucets are to 1.6 GPM) or the speed at which it fills is not a concern (toilet bowl, dishwasher) - 1 x 3/8" pex can provide 1.3 GPM, so if there's hot+cold mixing (2 x 1.3) there won't be a problem with 3/8" pex and even with no mixing it's unlikely that .3 GPM difference will be perceivable in most cases. Multi-unit residential, commercial or large houses could be a different ball game though.
@@deftdawg I agree with the design aspect of knowing how much water is being used to determine the supply line size but the plumbing code actually dictates what sized pipe can be used by a fixture. Sinks, water closets, and showers can be installed with 3/8" pipe. Bathtub and washing machine 1/2".
Does the Manablock system replace the need for water stops under the sinks? Otherwise I see no advantage over an insulated trunk line system for hot water. I don't trust my plumbers to rip through a structure with a PEX bundle the size of a fire hose without doing major damage.
Great Video! You raise some important cons. Particularly with having to evacuate each point of use. What about running a couple trunk lines to different zones or rooms? One trunk to Master Bath, which then forks to vanity and shower...? I love the ability to shut off water to parts of a house for repairs/remodels. Balance that with the cost/waste of evacuating those lines every time... Also, what are your thoughts on point of use water heaters?
@Anthony Sparapani That is how I would do it. Would be nice to be able to run a return line just before the mini-manifold so the water can circulate as well. Clean and simple way of always having hot water quickly.
How would this system work if you had a washer or dishwasher (especially if they were high efficiency) that was really far away without the use of a circulating system? In a regular plumbing trunk and branch system you could run the laundry sink with hot water close to the washing machine to make sure the hot water in the water is actually hot but with this it would seem like the washer would only draw cold water, and since it's high efficiency they don't really use that much hot water so the water would always be cold! I guess dishwashers are better off where you could tee the end compression valve for the kitchen sink and dishwasher, and dishwashers also have heating elements inside.
Jeff Cao mine is installed so that the sink is on the same line as the dishwasher. that way i can run the hot for a few seconds before starting the washer and the line is pre charged with hot water. my washer is also on the same loop as my mudroom basin sink, and the same can be done.
for a bigger house could you use multiple manifolds and run a circ system to the manifolds only? that way the longest pipe you would have to vacate would be
Installed this in my renovation in northern maine. The house is an old 1930's Victorian style. I am not a plumber at all so pex was a great option. Did the 36 port vega and couldn't be happier. He is spot on with the pluses with the use of this. It allowed me to work room by room and slowly bring on services. It also allowed me to do a "loose install" until the house is finished and I can finalize the "design" (it's a but if a rat's nest at the moment by design). The ability to cut a single service is a life saver. I moved the location of my water heater to get it closer to the manifold (faster hot water). And had to add a temp spot for washer and dryer. Cons after 1 year. Hot water delivery can tak a little bit on faucets, showers arent an issue because you generally turn them on and take a minute to get in. Biggest problem was the town pressure was only 40psi... waaaaay to low. I picked up a grundfos scala2 and cranked it up to 70 to 75 psi (what I'm used to). With the long runs from manifold to faucets the pump does get a workout. I'm sure with a conventional setup it would maintain a bit better, I'm talking only about 5psi flux so first world problems. My longest runs go about 40 line ft. Again this is an old house so a bit of over the river and through the woods was required. I would suggest if you have the extra $$ get the upanor/weisbro pex A and the the expansion tool. A friend who is doing a new construction uses it and its flexibility is very nice. Pex B is a little more stubborn in tight places. Overall for a DIY you cant beat the system, a little sharkbite here and some crimps and clamps there and you are happy.
I would never use that system. One of the most expensive things you do is heat water don't ever waste it if you can. If you have gas do on-demand hot water in each room you need it, if not make sure that the runs to hot water are as short as they can be and all of your hot water branching is done as close to the endpoint as possible. Also, who doesn't have a way to shut off the water right at the sink or toilet? Are you kidding on the extra fixture thing? How much time does a person waste running back an forth to the basement? And what if it's leaking when you cut it back on? This is silly.
I'd imagine there are still below the sink shut off valves. I wish I had individual branch line shutoff valves when I replaced leaking below the sink shutoff gate valves that leaked from the stem when touched.
I thought of the same question too. So say you get a leak in the kitchen sink. Now you have to run to the basement to turn off the switch that used to be under the counter? Seems bizarre to me
I think I would have one cold, one hot to each bathroom, not to each faucet. That way it cuts down the amount of lines needed to be run and saves on water ?
I like this idea. Pretty much what I am doing as I refurbish my home. I'm adding a small easy access panel so you can shut off water to the room before running it to each fixture
Just speaking from a homeowner point of view, it’s really worthwhile to have less pipes if possible. I try to insulate as much as possible. You don’t get condensation issues with cold pipes and heat loss with hot pipes.
We do 3/8" pex to sink faucets.. For cold it doesnt matter but for hot water the water delivery is super fast as diameter of 3/8" is about a third the diameter of 3/4" so you dont have the charge a large supply line to fire up one sink.
Matt there are a few things that one could very well do to improve hot water flow on a large house. Install more water heaters. Many people are switching to tankless under sink for direct on demand hot water. Manifolds are fine in some applications. They work best if you run your large line to the areas that you need and install a small closet or access panel along with a water heater per bathroom. This means you run cold water main line to master bath and one line to water heater and the rest to fixtures. My house is going to be a branch design. With 3/4 all thru out and very few of them will be 1/2, most of the half inch is just to make the connection for for very short couple feet runs. I have a well that delivers 25 GPM at 60psi with a main 3/4 inch line that will at some point be replaced with a 1 inch pex line. I am also going to install commercial 1 inch outdoor faucets along with getting 1 inch garden hose as well.
The way to get around the issues with longer runs is to install small manifolds near whatever plumbing group is far away from the water heater. Run a 3/4" line to supply each smaller manifold.
lol i don't think you understand how water flows. Why would a manifold next to the fixture be full of hot water compared to the manifold in the mechanical room? The water will be as cold as the water in the line, until you turn on the water on and move it to the manifold near the fixture. You need hot water flowing to the manifold to keep it hot lmao
@@ryan39584 The point is to avoid stagnant water in long runs that are rarely used. That was the issue raised in the video. If you have manifolds distributed through the house, you only have a short run of 1/2" pipe for the water to get stagnant in. I don't think you understand reading comprehension or critical thinking. Thanks for playing though.
@@ryan39584 Evidently you weren't paying attention at 8:00 where he spoke of having to charge each long home run in the master bath with hot water separately even though the fixtures are only a few feet away from each other. A small manifold in the master batch would eliminate this issue by charging the manifold in the master bath thereby making all nearby water hot rt away. get it?
RO is considered a really bad idea for drinking water in the home. I want RO for certain uses, e.g. nice coffee, but I agree with the World Health Organisation who issued a warning against it
Best way to fix this issue of water waste is point of use small tankless electric water heaters that way you run only cold from manifold. Another not as good way is reduce pipe size to 3/8". I'm looking at trying the pointof use water heating device running on 220v
@@vitalrights7390 That's an interesting idea. I have had the same thought before, but can see a few potential pitfalls: * Cost of each of the systems. Especially versus utilization. The less the system is used, the more expensive it becomes in terms of utility. * Increased maintenance burden. As the build show has mentioned before, tankless heaters are supposed to be flushed every so often. * Increased electricity installation costs. In the US 220 is rare in most parts of the house. Sending it to every place that needs hot water will require a specialty install, and a larger breaker box because each of those is now a two gang breaker. * Electricity and water concerns. There are rules about outlets and electricity in wet environments, like everywhere that you would want one of those tankless heaters. I don't know the rules on 220V in that environment, but I imagine it would take some work to make everything safe. With all of that said, I really love the idea, and hope you can get it to work.
You could always do a run to just the kitchen or bathroom and then branch off that to the fixtures as you would with traditional copper. Once the feed is charged, no waste, no bulk, easy for remodeling too.
Absolutely agree. While the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful.
To quicken the hot water to the taps in my two story, I ran a 3/4 line from the water heater, to a manifold that I located close to the main bathroom shower on the second floor. (Highest point) This manifold had a return line (uninsulated) back to the water heater and connects at its drain tap. This allows for a natural convection recirc loop. I have quick hot water to my bathroom, master bed rm bathroom and laundry room. I also grouped my hot water lines together which allowed me to wrap the bunch with 2 or 3 inch diameter fibreglass pipe insulation in the basement starting from where it groups together after the basement manifold. Once a line leaves the group, it was wrapped in 1/2” diameter. Only pain on doing this was where the pex had a fastener or support. BTW. Yes the laundry is located closer to the areas where clothes come from, the bedrooms on the second floor. And no the laundry room has never experienced a leaked since I built the house in 1994. I also switched to an on demand water heater in 2006. It has the recirc system included so the existing recirc line could connect into that. No regrets. I think this manifold set up is great. Thanks for this video.
@@bojack2740 yes a half in line runs back to the water heater. Originally connected in with the water heater tank drain valve, down low. Now I have a tankless heater that accepts return line.
@@jessybwoy8677 I saw one of these setups in a model home. The salesman told me it can be used to keep the water at specific faucets from getting TOO hot.
That dosent make any sense at all. You would only limit the volume of hot water not the temp. So it may only be 2 gallons a minute vs 3 but the water would still come out scalding
I have done the home runs like this for a long time. What I decided to do, was to bring a 3/4 homerun to the group. (Ex. Master bath has a 3/4 trunk to it, with 1/2 and 3/4 branching off of that main trunk). This way I have hot water delivered one time to the group. I also bring a new manifold to each floor. Most remods I do are big, and so I install new water heaters on each floor. Never a demand for water. I am not a fan of tankless.
I installed this system on my house. One benefit you forgot to mention is greatly reduced fluctuations in pressure. So when you are in the shower and someone is flushing the toilet or running the sink, you water pressure isn’t constantly fluctuating. Plus with zero fittings and long bends there is considerably less resistance within the plumbing. When I did mine, from the meter I ran 2 1 inch pex to the utility room, 1 to the cold side manibloc and 1 to the on demand water heater. My house is a very tall 2 story house with 2 showers on the 2nd story. With only 43psi of city water I can run both showers, the dishwasher and cloths washer with almost no noticeable pressure loss at the showers. It’s very handy when running 4 kids through the shower in the evening while cleaning up after supper and doing the laundry.
I have the same system in my house and for the last 8 years have been trying to figure out how to reduce the pressure drop in the shower when someone flushes the toilet or turns on another faucet. I have great pressure at the main through the meter. I have had three different plumbers look at this problem and contacted the manufacturer but no one seems to have a fix.
@@andyvan27 No - never did. We have enough pressure and volume to take a decent shower, but flush a toilet and we get about half the volume of water coming out of the shower head.
@@andyvan27 If you ever come up with a fix, please let me know. This is crazy. You would think these manifold systems would be great for loss of pressure and volume - but just the opposite. I have tremendous pressure coming into my house and my pressure regulator is set to take it down to 70 psi. Run one faucet and pressure is great. But run another faucet or toilet and I get about half the pressure and volume. I see the one commenter to this video says he only has 43 psi coming in from the street. If my main pressure coming from the street was that low and I flushed a toilet I’d have a trickle coming out of another faucet or shower head. By the way, in my efforts to get this resolved I had a plumber replace the 3/4 inch pex from the pressure regulator and back-flow valve with a one inch line and also replace the back-flow valve thinking that was the problem - that didn’t help. GOOD LUCK BUDDY!
Good pros and cons discussion, but wouldn’t you also reduce the momentary pressure drops when multiple fixtures are being used (ie when you’re in the shower especially)?
Not if the piping was sized correctly. In other words if a 3/4 line was ran to a bathroom for instance you would not notice a drop in volume by flushing a toilet while taking a shower. Its all about volume and pipe size
I have had one of these for over 16 years and when running a shower or any other fixture you can tell NO difference if someone else turns on another fixture.
Hey Matt, you've got a second-take at 10:48 where you didn't cut out the first take immediately before. This is great info. Do you think there's any advantage to hybridizing this system, i.e., using fewer discrete lines from a smaller manifold to isolate, say, single rooms instead of each fixture?
I own 12 houses and one of my homes has this system in it. 3340 sq. ft. house and I have to say ... it's stupid. I actually lived in that house as my personal home for over 2 years and guess how many times I manipulated the water to just turn off one thing? Like when I installed the RO system in the kitchen... do you think I turned off the one marked "kitchen sink"? I did NOT! I went under the sink and I turned it off at the under-sink location. HELLO! But wait... when I replaced a toilet didn't I turn it off at the manifold then? NOPE! Right at the toilet valve! But how about when I replaced one of my valves under my bathroom sink, THEN didn't I go to the manifold and turn off the one marked "bathroom sink"? NOPE! I turned off the valve in the garage to the entire house 'cause it's easy to do so. I didn't have to look at which one or use the special key I just did the 1/4 turn 1" ball-valve and bam, done and done. But say you've got a water-leak behind your fridge because the fridge is broken or something and for some reason your valve isn't working and it's 3am and the kitchen is flooding but you've got 8 kids who will be getting up in 3 hours and need the shower and toilets and water! Well then, yup! it's nice to have this kind of control! ... so ... now ... when the F does that ever happen? Worth the money? Nope. Worth the no-1"-trunk to 1/2" and 1/4" faucets on the hot side? NOPE! Advantages? 1 Disadvantages? Many this is a no-go ... believe me ... I still own and rent out the house and the manifold, now 12 years later, has never been used.
I've seen this install setup a few times, you can install a recirc to the system anytime. You essentially run your recirc off one of the hot outlets, however, all it's doing is recirculating the feed line. It doesn't really make a huge difference unless your mech room and manifold is farther away. The ideal manifold install is through Uponor's manifold system. It's sort of a hybrid trunk and branch system. Essentially you install an in wall manifold on your branch line, and your run your trunks through the manifold. I've had my plumbers do it on several builds now, and it cuts down on a lot of fittings in exchange for a lot more 1/2" pipe. This way your 1/2" pipe runs are usually
Plumber definitely looks like he knew what he was doing and really put the time in to make it look professional, but a couple things that caught my eye was 1) the 3/4 line to the water heater with the use of insert fittings...if more than 1 person is taking a shower and someone turns on a sink it will be noticeable. 2) Most pex manufacturers recommend 12-18 inches of metal pipe separation between the water heater and the pex. 3)3/4 cold water feeding the water softener...with the 3/4 insert fitting, it is basically choking the waterline down to 1/2"...using an uponor brand or something similar would help solve that or running 1" to the manablock
Dude... that manifold system is the most wasteful use of pipe and water imaginable... I did it in my house 15 years ago... Thought it was the coolest thing ever... And then realized it was the stupidest thing ever... but it looks so f****** rad!
From www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pex_design_guide.pdf the pipe temperature limit guideline in 185F (82C). At that temperature, hot water is a health hazard and I've never seen an on demand or immersion heater set to provide water at those temperatures. If it was a pressurised radiator system then definitely the copper is a requirement. Is there a real plumber out there looking at this to answer this thread properly? PS my preference is remote manifolds. I installed a 4C+3H manifold in my bathroom in the local linen closet..install went like a charm.
So his downside of having to wait for each hot water source, run the pex to another manifold closer to the bathroom so you don't have to wait as long once the system is charged.
@Brett Matisz Unless you have a circulating system, then you always have to wait for that first fixture to drain the cold water, but Justin's suggestion would mean you wouldn't need to wait as long for the second fixture in that room. Would it be worth a second manifold for those times? I doubt it. I'd rather just run the whole hot water for one bathroom off of one line. That way you could turn off hot water to that room (most of the advantage of a manifold) but still not have so much pex and your second fixture you turn on won't also have to wait (the advantage of a trunked system).
Exactly! Not really a fan of this system at all. As well, it needs to be fastened down to prevent 'thumping'. Its probably ok as a bundled trunk but might want to move when branched off.
I believe the 1/2" to 3/4" diameter pipe bends more easily whereas the larger 1"+ pipe has a sizable bend radius and wouldn't fit without the 90 degree fitting.
Can you do a pro/con video on central water heaters vs point of use water heaters? Would running just cold lines in the house, and then lower amp tankless heaters for a bathroom, kitchen or washroom make sense?
imabeapirate Think a tankless gas as a main unit with a small 120V on demand in the kitchen and maybe the bathrooms, the small unit could bridge the gap until the gas fires up and gets hot water to the tap.
I was thinking the same thing. Central water heaters seem a bit outdated and they're definitely bulky, especially if you don't have a basement to put it in.
I personally like large central water heaters that are on timers and point source heaters on any long branch runs. With insulation blankets on water heaters, I set the timer to turn on prior to morning use and the same for the after dinner cleanup and later evening shower. While 120 degree hot water seems like its good enough, I want nothing to do with Legionella. Hot water needs to be 140F or hotter for safety. The manifold system system here could be tailored to provide for a long branch with circulation and a smaller manifold close to the end use with a small point source heater.
This is actually something I was wanting to do until I did the actual math on it... Assuming you have an average faucet (2.2GPM according to Google) where you have 50F cold and want 130F hot, it would take 26kW. This means running a dedicated 110A 240V breaker, just for that one faucet. That wire isn't even going to be much smaller than a hot water pipe. Sure, excluding the kitchen sink and maybe washer, nothing in your house really needs 130F temps. So what about 90F? That's "only" 7kW - so a 30A 240V breaker, which is actually pretty reasonable. But, a lot of older houses (at least in the northeast), only have 100A service to the house. This is why tankless electric water heaters aren't really a thing. Personally, I think putting in a small gas tankless for each is just impractical since you'd have to run gas everywhere and exhausts for each one.
I redid the plumbing in my house and ran home runs for almost every fixture using 1/2" CPVC from a 3/4" supply. Matt suggest running 3/4" to the bathroom then splitting off. This seems to me that you would have to run twice the hot water before the temperature stabilized . -- Area of a 3/4" pipe is .44 sq in. Area of 1/2" pipe is .19 sq inch. --- Am I missing something?
FYI When you double the diameter of a pipe you also increase the free area flow rate by pi. This "cubes" the output of the pipe. So from the firefighter's handbook, you get 9 times the number of gallons of water from a 2" hose vs a 1" hose...or at least 3 times the water from a 3/4" pipe than a 1/2".
You can absolutely add a recirc pump. Tap each hot run at the fixture, run it back and install another manifold to combine it then circ through the water heater. Use white or an off color of red to indicate circ line. ID the main manifold to indicate recirc and reference the recirc manifold valve for that circuit. Yes it's more pipe, but whats a little more if you are already running home runs for everything.
I feel like this would work well with splitting the system into smaller manifolds, per level. That way, you have one hot and one cold lead to each bathroom and then much shorter runs to the faucet and shower, for example. Thinking that would drastically reduce the amount of plumbing runs and you'd still have the ability to shut things down locally. Kind of a hybrid between this and the standard branched setups you'd see. But I'm not a plumber or builder, just someone with an interest in keeping up to date on the stuff for future reference Edit: apparently, I'm not the only one that thought of this
Ya but you would need to install a thermostatic mixing valve to avoid uneven distribution of hot and cold water. If you were to for example flush the toilet while you shower it would cause a flash of hot water with the lack of cold water after flushing said toilet. DISCLAIMER: I am not a plumber and the highest level of skill I have in plumbing was when i recently replaced/installed the fill valve in my toilet (thus why I’ve been getting plumbing TH-cam vids recommended to me 💀) with barely any (key word barely) complications. I did recently watch a few plumbing videos out of boredom in the middle of the night while I should have been sleeping and I saved 15% on my car insurance by switching Epstein island Auto Insurance. At this point I’m basically a master TH-cam plumber so ask away and I will look up the answer for you 🤗
Wicked, I have seen many houses with of this kind of plumbing. However the manifold was done per story with a circulation connecting the last manifold with the water heater. So da large pipes are always hot and the branches are short and contain little hot wat!
If one valve on the manifold break you need to replace the entire manifold. Do a DIY manifold to both save money and to not have a bad valve leading to system replacement.
On the hot water side, a 1/2" homerun defeats one of the primary benefits of the homerun system - quick hot water delivery. A 3/8" homerun is sufficient for all but a multi-head shower or tub filler, and it has half the capacity of a 1/2" line, so it will deliver hot water in half the time.
I really like manifolds but I prefer a hybrid system (a main manifold feeding smaller manifolds around the house). Shorten the runs lengths and you still have a central manifold per room to turn fixtures off. I would install my electrical system the same way (using a sub panel for each floor). A bit more expensive but so much easier to add stuff later on.
That's what I was thinking. One run of hot and cold all the way to the bathroom, then split off for toilet, tub, shower, and sink from there. You wash you hands or shave, the hot line is charged for the shower and vice-versa.
while remodeling my house this is what i did some what. instead i only have a upstairs bath and downstairs. my small mechanical room is under my stairs in the kitchen. so the kitchen just has a main feed to the sink and then branch off for a pot filler, hose bib, and ice maker. back in the mechanical room i went up with a main, hit the bath room and branch off to the sink, toilet and shower. first floor bath, i ran a main and copper headers, that reduce to 1/2. and then runs to the clothes washer and then other branches for shower, toilet, and sink. It works quite well. I spent the extra money and have plenty of ball valves installed. my 1 inch main has a valve, then my 3/4 has a valve at the transition, then when it comes up to to the room another valve, then valves to isolate the softener, then valves for upstairs, and water heater isolation, and hard water supply isolation to hard water points. and isolation under the house at the headers. reduced fittings by doing more sweeps and keep it loose for expansion. in the future once i gather up my control system parts from work as we start upgrading customers BAS ill collect the otherwise thrown out good controllers and buy some actuators and install a main water shut off valve that can be controlled as well as add some flood sensors so if i have a leak and im not home it can automatically shut the water off. as well as tie in some other stuff in the house such as my HVAC. but thats another story. anyway so far it seems to work quite well. im running a 27kw tankless water heater, it doesnt do to bad running 2 showers at the same time, or running a bath and taking a shower or running a shower and 2 sinks. whats also nice is say you run the clothes washer and then use the downstairs shower you already have hot water almost immediately since they are tied to the same header. now upstairs wont see much gain from it unless some one was to wash there hands or something and then someone else went to hop in the shower then you could see a gain from it. i wouldnt mind doing a recalculation system however it wouldnt fit in to well with a tankless water heater, even though i have thought of some ideas how to make a tankless work with it and using one of our controllers, some sensors and relays as well as a storage tank, i could make it work however would then take away from the reason to have the tankless anyway since the plus to the tankless is since no one is home x amount of hours a day its not sitting there burning energy to heat a tank of water. unless i set it up with a schedule to where it will start the system at a specific time and stop at a specific time. or have timed intervals.
Just like electrical...how is it not all SMART yet? And not at astronomical prices? (I walk into my house and see water leaking, I have my AirPods in, I say “hey Siri shut off all water”, or to which room). Also those systems could monitor usage on each electrical outlet or water fixture. Also...I already pay TH-cam so I don’t have to have commercials :)
I think your math was a little off for the hot water line. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Volume (V) = Area (A) * Length (L). Area (A) = (pi)*(I.D.^2)/4. So V = (pi)*(I.D.^2)*(L)/(4). Input the numbers: V = (pi)*(0.5^2)*(25*12)/4 = 58.9 sq in. = 0.25 gal
Their isolated from each other. The hot and cold line do not come in contact with each other. Besides - in order to get cold or hot water u have to run the water till the line clears - otherwise it's just room temperature. Personally I think this is a waste of money. U have to use more pex and waste water.
@mattrisinger (NEW BUILD) HOT water RECIRCULATION PLUMBING....... For the hot water supply to circulate.....Couldn't you take a different color PEX line (IE.clear/white, purple, black) from a "T" that is placed at the end of each run; Then said ___(color)___ PEX would "homerun" back down to, yet another manifold; Then said PEX would leave manifold by FLOPPING of ports the inlet & outlet ports. (used to be inlet, is NOW OUTLET)
@@davidb1132 wouldnt know first hand. I Have not had any radiant heating systems in the ones i have installed. Which is what i am assuming your refering to.Meaning none of the ones I install had Recirculating systems.
Hello again Matt. I did install one of these on my prior home. I also had an on demand tank installed. The hot water travelled short enough distances that it was minimal loss, or put a water pitcher in the shower to use for plants later. But this in home run setup with an on demand left me continuous hot showers when I needed for guests, or just long enough for my family of two when we were alone. The gain in not heating water all day was more than enough to reduce any cost of water lost in bringing hot water up to the point of use. Also, 1/2" lines going vertical were easier on the pressure variant vs. a wider column of water. No pumps were needed and if you want to add more lines for a shower, add away and have multiple heads running on a second floor. My setup was 36 circuits, no split or shared lines. All stub outs to the cabinet and I tape my exposed tube with duct tape, the metal looking one without logos. It was easy to secure the lines in walls and having zero joints also helped against joint or 90 degree angles causing resistance to pressure. I am a "Handyman" but I do pull permits on my own home and have been appreciated by the electrical or plumbing inspectors. So it can be done by a homeowner who worries about all the work. Great show and thank you for sharing your info with us.
You math isn't right. It's 1/2 gallon for 50 feet of 1/2". 1/2" PEX only has an ID of .485", which is why they came up with 5/8" PEX to approximate the flow of 1/2" copper .569, which is still well behind 1/2" Schedule 40 .622. Shucks, the OD of 1/2" PEX will almost fit inside of 1/2" Schedule 40. The upside of course is to single low-flow-fixtures, it speeds things up. IMO coming in with 3/4" PEX is way too small so there will be a pretty good pressure drop from other loads. It needs 1" because 3/4" PEX .681" flows nothing like 3/4" Schedule 40 .824. There is a lot going on there. I agree in that that design of having no insulated lines is not conducive to a gravity or pump recirculating system nor preserving heat on long runs. A thought would be to do a branch system to things such as toilets, hose bibs, ice maker, and make or buy a simply 1" manifold with 1/2" PEX-A and insulate the pipes to showers and sinks to improve response times and pressure equalization since the cold and hot would be located at the hot water heater. You could run dedicated warm water returns and check valves easily that way as well.
Actually clumping all the hot water pipes together helps to keep them warm. Anyone taking a shower is warming up the water in the other pipes for everyone else.
We had one of these worthless things! Leaked something terrible! Bought new valves and it still leaked. Paid a plumber a lot of money to replace it with metal valves. WORTHLESS TRASH!! If you install one of these cheaply made, but expensive to buy manifolds, you’ll be SORRY!😬
I'm not sure I'm a fan. I get the idea that you get a continuous run of pipe so fewer connections. In theory you will end up with extra pipe. Pieces that were not long enough to complete your run. And I cannot stomach the loss of water and the long wait times for hot water. I think this is very inefficient and wasteful. Putting in a recirculation pump is also not a great idea on a domestic home as it is extremely expensive to run. Just my thoughts.
I was commercially licensed in 1989, plumbed custom homes for 20 years, now I do mostly service. I've encountered these systems several times- in each case, the home owner wanted rid of the system- mind you- not my suggestion- THEIRS. and I agree. there ARE NO ADVANTAGES to this system. hot water ALWAYS TAKES LONGER to get to fixtures. and there is NO practical way to fix this. shutting down an individual line to a fixture? that's what stops at fixtures are for. even tub/shower valves come with that feature BUILT IN now. the valves at the manifold are plastic- and are absolute krap. give me a good watts or apollo ball valve ANY DAY. way more pipe wasted, way more labor wasted.
Honestly I would never ever install a manifold in any house, it waste a lot of water for no reason. You're gonna wait for the hot water to arrive at every single fixture, not to mention you are gonna waste an incredible amount of pipe for no reason. I will always install a shut-off valve underneath every fixture. I always install shower rough that have two shut-off valves built-in. The only real incovenience is with the tub and exterior line, you're gonna have have to open the wall or ceilling to cap those off or take out the bathtub. I've been a plumber for 15 years now and I've worked with every available material and in my opinion regular pex is the most cost efficient and effective way to pipe a house. 3/4 pex is more than adequate to feed a two bathrooms house with a kitchen, laundry and two exterior line. Add another toilet and lavatory and you've reached the limit for that size of pipe. I usually run mutiple 3/4 lines from the main water source whenever i have a large house with 3-4-5-6++ bathrooms. Working with 1in pex is not really pleasant and easy because its not that flexible and its more costly than running multiple 3/4 lines. To ensure an adequate water supply to all the fixture i always run a 3/4 line all the way until the last two fixtures and only at that point will I reduce down to 1/2in. 99% of fixture (exept bath and shower) have 3/8 internal lines if not 1/4. I used to run a speedway with a shut-off valve to the bath faucet but i've had issues where it wouldnt get enough water sometimes so now i always run directly to the faucet with 1/2 pex, its sometimes a bit more difficult to connect the faucet but ive never had another issue since then. I also run a 3/4 line all the way to the shower faucet and connect it to a copper reducer because i've had issues in the past with certain shower faucet that wouldnt get enough water. Ever since i started following these guidelines, as long as the main water line supplied enough water and pressure, ive never had a complaint or problem.
"It could be a long time before hot water." No, Matt. The first manifold distributed system I installed was 1991. Every pipe was a home run, there were no concealed connections in the system except two. Those two were the master bedroom shower, a dedicated shower, the backside of the Grohe shower valve drywall behind the valve. In the entire remainder of the house, the pipes exited to the shut off valve under the sink or toilet,, visually and manually accessible. The REASON I went with a distributed system was for quick hot water availability to the master bedroom shower. I was presented with two choices only at the engineering stage. With 3 full and 1 half bath, second floor laundry. The minimum riser from basement to second floor was a 1 inch riser. A one inch riser times 20 vertical feet, plus 20 horizontal feet, requires a heated hot water circulating loop,,, or limited hot water if another shower and the laundry tub is filling,, or a LONG time to bring hot water to the Master Bedroom shower. Distributed systems fed with a 1" to the manifold are surge proof. Flush all the toilets you want,, you will never need to have a pressure balanced protector. (Except code still will require it for another decade or two.) So,,for the house in 1991 , a 7/16ths ID (the tech of the day) gray PEX plastic,, plastic is not the heat thief as is copper, (Note: I used zero plastic fitting in the entire system) delivered hot to the master shower in 12 seconds, 70 pipe feet away. 1/2 , 3/4 and 1" copper cannot come close to the performance of a PEX distributed system. I have installed many since then. The goal and the benefit is zero joints in the walls. I used 500 and 1000 foot reels of pipe, set up on a spinning pipe between ladders to pull the pipes through the house, just like Romex. It requires a different mind set,,,,, We think, because of copper, threaded, and CPVC,, we think in right angle bends. Wipe that thinking from your mind and think in terms of a race track with high speed large radius, corners all of radii and parabolas, ,,, a pipe routing can, and should be,, the longest radii that you can envision,, Drill all your holes in the direction of the bend. Making the turn from a 2X10 floor into a 2X4 wall, it is easy to maintain a 20 inch or 30 inch radius. Feeding hot and cold to a 2 sink vanity, toilet, rear yard hose bib, and hot for dish washer and hot and cold for the kitchen sink,,, 9 runs in one wall,,, you do the entire thing with 9 7/8" holes, in each stud, center of wall the farthest run a 7 foot radius. Everything smooth and uninterrupted. I would never bundle my supplies under a basement joist,,, how can you finish the ceiling without a pipe chase, or dropped ceiling,,, and you have lost one of the benefits of many small easy to drill holes in soft arcs, and no hangers or clips. I have done multiple shower rooms for the Boy Scouts,, each shower getting a dedicated hot and cold,,,, zero surge,, zero pressure change when someone else turns theirs on or off. When you get the hang of the system, one man can run all the supplies from basement manifold to inside of every vanity and sink base, shower access, and laundry room wall,, in a single day. And never pull out a torch. It is actually easier and faster than pulling electrical cables,, the plastic pipe is a little flexible and a little rigid and the plastic PEX is slippery against the wood. If you have kept to generous bends,and holes drilled in the direction you are going, , it pulls easy and very fast. The only change I would ask of materials suppliers. The absolute ideal ID for a distributed system is 3/8", a 3/8ths inch PEX line,,, a one centimeter line.,, fairly thick wall, zero right angle bends, would give a 5 gallon per minute flow rate. Smaller and easier to pull,, and yet much faster hot water response. After 27 years? of installing them in my projects, there is nothing faster, there is nothing less expensive, and there is nothing better than a distributed system. What you show on the wall,,, we all should be doing,, with zero fitting buried in the walls,, and zero pipes in outside walls.
This exactly. I installed the Manabloc system on a 1949 house I remodeled 10 years ago. I needed to replace old galvanized water pipe throughout the house. Most of my runs were ⅜" PEX which is more than adequate for faucets and toilets and ½" for bath, shower, laundry and hoses. Very fast heat up throughout the house and no more pressure drop resulting in cold or scalding hot showers.
That is exactly my experience too. Going to the 1/2 for the tub fill makes good sense. The two seater whirlpool tub took a long time to fill. Most of my recent installs have been 1/2 inch,,, because 1/2 inch is so available. The old pex was about 7/16ths ID,,, never had any trouble with delivery rates. Part of it I think is down to the smooth curves and no right angle bends,, the water speeds through.
Every video I watch for Pros and Cons of PEX. No one talks about it. PEX is great but not for running under house or attics or even walls. Unlike copper pipes, PEX have 25-50 year life expectancy. It could be even shorter. The cons are: does not like daylight, prone to chlorine damage, prone to rodents, bacteria magnet, and foul taste from plastic chemicals. Only reason why PEX got popular is. You don't have to be highly skilled to use PEX. Copper is time consuming, expensive, lack of skilled copper plumbers, and higher wages for copper plumber vs PEX plumber.
I like that drinking and ice water (as well as outside taps) are branched out before the softener, to both remove the taste of softening, and to not waste the softening on watering the garden.
Question.....I believe I have such a PEX manifold hidden in between drywall ( wall between attached garage and inside entry/laundry room.). The house is in the South and I "occasionally" get line freeze when we have an uncharacteristic cold-snap freeze. So....I'm thinking of using one of those under-sink-pumps and cold/hot blending systems that are nornally used to help speed up hot water delivery.....BUT.....they also can be configured to blend hot/cold lines to prevent line freezing. My question--> these sysems typically work best when the under-sink pump is located at the FURTHEST AWAY sink from the hot water heater, and if the system uses a more conventional branch system of piping with main line trunk supply and return. Will this freeze protection work for a spaghetti system like this PEX system, without a main trunk/branch arrangement?.....or won't I get a nice "blended" temp with this throughout the house?
One unmentioned advantage is that this system is *way* easier to use when replacing pipes in an existing house and the PEX can be snaked through the walls. Some other notes: In the south: we put these in our garage. If you really want to use shared piping to a distant location you can do that; simply put a manifold or split in [for example] your master bath. You won't have the single-outlet-per-output in your main manifold; but you'll still get many of the advantages. Closed hot loops don't work well with instant-on heaters (because you have to keep re-heating the water); so sometimes the inability of this system to use a closed loop isn't really a disadvantage. You are right that these aren't insulated. I've never seen insulated plumbing pipe (but I'm in the south: maybe it's different in the north). I'm not convinced that "hot shower then hot sink almost immediately before/after" is a common enough scenario to make it something to account for. The lack of joints improves water pressure.
If i were to build a new house, I would run pipes directly to every floor, then use the distribution on each floor in a closet, that can be closed in an emergency.
I would recommend to check your state plumbing codes before installing. In my state you can’t have a direct connection of pex to the water heater. You must have at least 18” of Ferris piping between the pex and the water heater.
I like and have installed PEX manifolds, but I don't consider this to be a "pretty" installation and I do not like Viega system manifolds. I install pipe insulation on both cold and hot PEX lines. I use pipe clamps to the hold the insulation in place. This allows for no thermal breaks in the insulation, allows for expansion/contraction of the PEX material and helps to keep the cold water lines from sweating. I also would have ran non-softened water lines to the toilets (if this is a city water system). The installer/homeowner should have installed a whole house water filter in between the water meter and the input line to the water softener. Most of the softener brands that I have installed in the past require a certain level of micron filtration on the incoming water line or it will void the water softener warranty.
TechSkills Please elaborate on what exactly you don't like about the Viega manifolds? I looked at all the different manifolds before choosing the Viega Manablock for my house. I liked the layout, easy repair ability of valves, included ready made labels, cost and the non-corrosive construction (since we have very hard water here.) As I mentioned in another comment above, it has even survived a few minor freeze-ups out here.
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If 2000 sq.ft is small, I must live in a shed.
No shit. I was thinking same thing
Depends where you are but stuff in tx is cheap
😂😂😂
American standards. I live in a 1000sq apartment and have plenty of space
I have 3400 square feet at my house 2000 square feet is not really that big 2500 square feet is u.s. medium.
When you get the Electrician to plumb your home
I'm an electrician, and this looks like poop.
I was thinking, "Who let the women design a plumbing system?"
@@goalie2998 I think he was meaning how nicely labelled and designed the lines were, as opposed to most plumbing installations where the pipes are Tee'd in every direction, no markers, minimal shut off valves. Then again i've seen electrican installations that could be included into that description and where "installed by plumbers".
I have some electrical experience and I agree!
@I C Why would they do that if you can just turn it off at the manifold ?
For a larger home (or any home really) while the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful as the system above, and eliminates the need for every hot water run to a bathroom needed to evacuate an waiting.
Exactly what I was thinking
We did something similar. Main trunk line to the upstairs feeding a manifold there. Then each of the 4 bathrooms has a supply from that manifold. Recirculating line to that manifold. The master and kids bathrooms are very close to the manifold so hot water is almost instant.
The kitchen also has a recirculating line. A little more complex but I like the ability to shut off to all the rooms from a “central” location. Has come in handy already.
The situation you described here is another typical plumbing layout known as "trunk and branch". The benefits of Truck and Branch is that you use less pipe, however, with a "home-run" system (like in the video) you don't send any extra hot water to a fixture than needed.
Omg. 20 seconds for hot water!?!? Blasphemy! Lol.
A pro that was not mentioned; You can manually turn down the hotwater supply to the shower to tell your kids it is time to get out of the shower.
they make timer valves for the hot side too, so that single run to the kids shower turns hot off after 15 mins ;)
@@brand0n. dead ass lmaooooo
You know, if you people built showers for water volume instead of water pressure, many teens and adults would take a lot shorter showers. It's that exact control methodology that had me taking forever in the shower controlled by my dad, instead of the 2-minute showers in the house owned by my mother. They said the same of his step-daughter, too. Mere water delivery, and water pressure, is not 'plumbing done right'- water volume at sinks and showers is. I've since proven this as an adult. California regulations can go screw themselves - the rest of the country isn't hurting for water, not to the degree that taking quick showers - made quick by water volume - is ever going to be a problem.
Yep, I have a PEX manifold system, and I have turned off the kids' shower hot water a couple of times!
I love that 😂😂😂
I have had this very manifold system in my house for over 16 years and LOVE it. I did all the plumbing myself and was very easy to do. It does eliminate the shutoffs at each fixture which in my experience many times need replaced about the time you need to use them so you have to do the whole-house shutoff thing anyway. It was VERY nice to just turn off one 'circuit' and change out a faucet recently when I needed to do that.
"... need replaced about the time you need to use them ..." That resonates with me soooo much - I've had that at two different houses, though not with valves at the fixtures. In one, cpvc gate valves (which I didn't know were a thing) didn't shut off completely because overzealous application of primer/glue had warped them. In the other, the house's main shutoff was a brass gate valve. Apparently someone hadn't opened it quite all the way; motion imparted from running water caused grooves to be worn in the mating surfaces. Once again it looked to be in good condition and I expected it to work. I had to do a bit of digging, but fortunately the street valve actually did function.
I imagine you would still want a water shutoff on things like toilets and sinks because you'll still have water in the lines that will make a mess out of your bathroom and under your sink
@@fishingwithleachesabsolutely no mess. Think about how a water level works. Does not matter which end it is turned off.
When a water leak starts spraying you don't want to take the time to go all the way to your garage/basement/utility room to shut it off. Right at the fixture is fastest for damage control.
Can you put a hot water recirculation on this system?
I feel like after a while , we will find enough information in his video to walk you through how to build a new house from scratch. That was part of the plumbing chapter.
15 second wait for hot water that's nothing i gotta wait like 2 mnts for my warm water😑
yeah same, I usually fill a bucket instead of wasting that water
How the hell is the buildings done in there . Here in Finland you pretty much get got water immediately.
My preference for ad placement would be right after the title card (i.e. intro->title card->ad->rest of the video). Having a unrelated ad in the middle of the content was a bit jarring.
And for pity's sake, / isn't backslash! Matt said it wrong twice! UGH!
@@billsherman6129 He also called the hot water line and manifold "cold", and made some other trivial errors. It's like no checking at all is done....
@@billsherman6129 Agreed - Matt next time say FORWARD slash... think of this '\' as leaning back, thus a back slash and this '/' as leaning forward, thus a forward slash. Otherwise a great video as always... thanks!
@@billsherman6129 You've got issues, dude.
wah
"Beautiful Install"??? Someone needs to read the installation standard for Viega ManaBloc. The PEX needs to come straight off the fittings (horizontally and vertically), then be secured 4-6 inches from the manifold, BEFORE the tubing bends to prevent putting pressure on the manifold fittings. It's right there in the "viega-pex-installation-manual". This installation was not done in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
You are correct. My Renovator made the plumbers redo the manifolds, so the PEX tubing were horizontal, supported and were not subject to gravity. Since it was done 9 years ago, I hope the plastic holds as i bet the products are better now.
The way this was done is completely acceptable. There’s barely a bend. And if ya wanna get technical they’re straight for a pretty good distance. Also, the gravity of the system puts a lot more stress on the manifold fittings.
@@thomasrudder9639 Then you have a very different opinion than the engineers who designed it and the people who manufacture it. Their installation standards for the Manabloc are unambiguous and this installation does not meet their standard. If the Manabloc and tubing are properly aligned and secured, there will be no stress on the manifold fittings because the fittings will not be under tension nor will they be supporting the load. Read the manual. Argue with them if you disagree.
Yeah. There are even videos available on TH-cam by Viega explaining steps in proper install. It would appear Matt may want to, at the very least, have someone else (seeing how he doesn't have time to shop) research products prior to giving praise.
I was wondering why they started the bend at the fitting. ...3yrs from now when it splits
Awesome! We are planning on using a PEX manifold for our radiant heated floors on our house build!
You don't use this kind of block for a heating system, you need a hydronic manifold for heating.
Different animal altogether, and you'll be using PEX type A (if you're smart) for in-floor heating. We were installing Wirsbo PEX radiant systems as early as the mid '80s and it was a steep learning curve. Have it designed by a professional and don't try for miracles (pushing radiant heat through a plywood subfloor covered with hardwood... yeah, it's 'possible'... people do it all the time. Then they complain for a thousand reasons... heat can't keep up... flooring moves abnormally... hot spots at the pipe.... yadda yadda. Radiant floors should be installed in some kind of thermal mass, period... not stapled up under a wooden subfloor. Just my .02.
@@HBSuccessDo you feel that same about warm board?
I like the hybrid between home run and traditional, localized manifolds
How does that work? Each line from the block goes into a manifold that spreads it between each device in the bathroom?
I put this in my house 8 years ago. The time to fixture was a consideration in my design so for any small fixtures like standard sink faucets, dishwasher, clothes washer, I used the outlet adapter that converts to 3/8" at the mana-bloc. Also, I used 2 - 1/2" colds and 2 - 1/2" hots for the whirlpool tub in conjunction with 3/4" valving so the tub fills very fast. I insulated the pipe from the heater.
that was smart
Waiting 15-25 seconds for hot is nothing compared to where I grew up and we had to wait a minute or three for the oil furnace to "wake up" and start heating water. And how much more is the PEX run than a copper run? Not much, I think. If you want the fastest hot water, you need on-demand hot water at or near the point of use, and that is a different animal than PEX vs copper. - - And you leave out, or under-emphasize, the most important reason to use a manifold. Pressure and temperature equalization when multiple taps/appliances are being used.
I love the manibloc system I put in myself easy had no issues so far in a new construction I have done myself.
I agree, I installed the Manabloc system in my house 14 years ago had no problems and it works great.
Put the key on a string, that way it won't walk away from where it's needed.
I like when they set these up in nodules, so you would actually charge the specific room like one restroom. Still is nice you only shut down a single room vs the house.
tat is why you place a dedicated shut off (like you should to begin with) at the toilet, sink wherever and they rest of the house runs fine.
@@garyring8306 🤣🤣🤣 lol your clearly not a builder. I am and those dedicated shut off valves are trash and fail often. It's nice to shut off areas to replace valves or to just keep off if not in use. It also reduces runs and is more efficient.
@@jr303official That's why you only use r-19s,my Boy.
Major negatives about these manifold systems you did not address Matt. 1.There is *much* more water pipe in these systems. 2.The manifolds I have worked with were *not* rebuildable...the entire manablock had to be replaced. 3.The maniblocks/valves are fragile, and valve stacks use O rings between each one. Those will probably be a problem as these age. I like Pex though. Good stuff.
Matt, one option in Manabloc's system is to go to 3/8" lines for all faucets and lower flow fixtures (depending on code, it could theoretically serve fixtures up to 3.0 gpm). That way, your wait time actually goes down compared to a trunk and branch system. Of course, any large volume fixtures (shower, washing machine, etc) still gets 1/2". I've installed this system in several small multifamily buildings and the occupants love it.
I also did a 3/8" manabloc install (except for a few fixtures - bathtub, washing machine, hose bibs) on a very old house... 3/8" saves water and the manabloc is hugely helpful at balancing out water pressure drops when multiple fixtures are open (city line is 1/2"). I would probably do as you suggested if I were building a new home. One additional thing I would suggest is copper to the kitchen sink... the pex gives my water a "plastic water bottle in the hot sun" taste.
You actually have to run loaded calculations to say whether or not a pipe size will be able to serve the fixture correctly or not in a system. This is typical in plumbing where people don't consider math in terms of flow rates, demand and the total fixture GPM. What happens when you shoot off the hip is sometimes you get lucky and many times you have flow issues where if more than one fixture is run at the same time a noticeable flow rate drop occurs... the more you run simultaneously the worse the flow. In homes 1500sf & up this is typically a big scale problem. Rarely is the initial plumber called back on new construction because unless the owner understands this is a design issue and catches it soon... it usually ends up as a service call. This is a really bad level of service to the customer. Engineering for electrical & plumbing should be running load calculations and designing the system accordingly so that the demand is met for not only each fixture but the whole house. That is the beginning of providing good service.
@@btownb4462 If by pipe size you mean the supply pipe coming into the house, I agree... my house is 90 years old, and they certainly didn't do any real planning or calculation, it probably should've been piped in at 3/4". But on a per fixture level, I'd say if the fixture is flow limited (like most faucets are to 1.6 GPM) or the speed at which it fills is not a concern (toilet bowl, dishwasher) - 1 x 3/8" pex can provide 1.3 GPM, so if there's hot+cold mixing (2 x 1.3) there won't be a problem with 3/8" pex and even with no mixing it's unlikely that .3 GPM difference will be perceivable in most cases. Multi-unit residential, commercial or large houses could be a different ball game though.
@@deftdawg I agree with the design aspect of knowing how much water is being used to determine the supply line size but the plumbing code actually dictates what sized pipe can be used by a fixture. Sinks, water closets, and showers can be installed with 3/8" pipe. Bathtub and washing machine 1/2".
Does the Manablock system replace the need for water stops under the sinks? Otherwise I see no advantage over an insulated trunk line system for hot water. I don't trust my plumbers to rip through a structure with a PEX bundle the size of a fire hose without doing major damage.
Maybe set up a master distribution block and slave manifold(s) where needed?
Great Video! You raise some important cons. Particularly with having to evacuate each point of use. What about running a couple trunk lines to different zones or rooms? One trunk to Master Bath, which then forks to vanity and shower...? I love the ability to shut off water to parts of a house for repairs/remodels. Balance that with the cost/waste of evacuating those lines every time...
Also, what are your thoughts on point of use water heaters?
@Anthony Sparapani That is how I would do it. Would be nice to be able to run a return line just before the mini-manifold so the water can circulate as well. Clean and simple way of always having hot water quickly.
Some people do install it the way you said.
I think you should know what pex is, till then keep it to yourself
How would this system work if you had a washer or dishwasher (especially if they were high efficiency) that was really far away without the use of a circulating system? In a regular plumbing trunk and branch system you could run the laundry sink with hot water close to the washing machine to make sure the hot water in the water is actually hot but with this it would seem like the washer would only draw cold water, and since it's high efficiency they don't really use that much hot water so the water would always be cold! I guess dishwashers are better off where you could tee the end compression valve for the kitchen sink and dishwasher, and dishwashers also have heating elements inside.
Jeff Cao mine is installed so that the sink is on the same line as the dishwasher. that way i can run the hot for a few seconds before starting the washer and the line is pre charged with hot water. my washer is also on the same loop as my mudroom basin sink, and the same can be done.
for a bigger house could you use multiple manifolds and run a circ system to the manifolds only? that way the longest pipe you would have to vacate would be
You want to do that, run an Uponor system. Fewer runs and easy to recirculate.
Installed this in my renovation in northern maine. The house is an old 1930's Victorian style. I am not a plumber at all so pex was a great option. Did the 36 port vega and couldn't be happier.
He is spot on with the pluses with the use of this. It allowed me to work room by room and slowly bring on services. It also allowed me to do a "loose install" until the house is finished and I can finalize the "design" (it's a but if a rat's nest at the moment by design). The ability to cut a single service is a life saver. I moved the location of my water heater to get it closer to the manifold (faster hot water). And had to add a temp spot for washer and dryer.
Cons after 1 year. Hot water delivery can tak a little bit on faucets, showers arent an issue because you generally turn them on and take a minute to get in. Biggest problem was the town pressure was only 40psi... waaaaay to low. I picked up a grundfos scala2 and cranked it up to 70 to 75 psi (what I'm used to). With the long runs from manifold to faucets the pump does get a workout. I'm sure with a conventional setup it would maintain a bit better, I'm talking only about 5psi flux so first world problems.
My longest runs go about 40 line ft. Again this is an old house so a bit of over the river and through the woods was required. I would suggest if you have the extra $$ get the upanor/weisbro pex A and the the expansion tool. A friend who is doing a new construction uses it and its flexibility is very nice. Pex B is a little more stubborn in tight places.
Overall for a DIY you cant beat the system, a little sharkbite here and some crimps and clamps there and you are happy.
I would never use that system. One of the most expensive things you do is heat water don't ever waste it if you can. If you have gas do on-demand hot water in each room you need it, if not make sure that the runs to hot water are as short as they can be and all of your hot water branching is done as close to the endpoint as possible.
Also, who doesn't have a way to shut off the water right at the sink or toilet? Are you kidding on the extra fixture thing? How much time does a person waste running back an forth to the basement? And what if it's leaking when you cut it back on? This is silly.
I'd imagine there are still below the sink shut off valves. I wish I had individual branch line shutoff valves when I replaced leaking below the sink shutoff gate valves that leaked from the stem when touched.
It's not tho. It's set up next to the water heater. So all those hot water lines run straight to it.
I thought of the same question too. So say you get a leak in the kitchen sink. Now you have to run to the basement to turn off the switch that used to be under the counter? Seems bizarre to me
I love mine, put it in myself real easy to do.
I think I would have one cold, one hot to each bathroom, not to each faucet. That way it cuts down the amount of lines needed to be run and saves on water ?
that's probably what he did. you just put a tee at the bathroom.
I like this idea. Pretty much what I am doing as I refurbish my home. I'm adding a small easy access panel so you can shut off water to the room before running it to each fixture
Just speaking from a homeowner point of view, it’s really worthwhile to have less pipes if possible. I try to insulate as much as possible. You don’t get condensation issues with cold pipes and heat loss with hot pipes.
We do 3/8" pex to sink faucets.. For cold it doesnt matter but for hot water the water delivery is super fast as diameter of 3/8" is about a third the diameter of 3/4" so you dont have the charge a large supply line to fire up one sink.
@@1personalt I thought i saw maniblocks with 3/8 lines. That makes sense as 1/2 line is 1/3 the water volume of 3/4 line. 3/8 a lot less water.
Matt there are a few things that one could very well do to improve hot water flow on a large house. Install more water heaters. Many people are switching to tankless under sink for direct on demand hot water.
Manifolds are fine in some applications. They work best if you run your large line to the areas that you need and install a small closet or access panel along with a water heater per bathroom. This means you run cold water main line to master bath and one line to water heater and the rest to fixtures.
My house is going to be a branch design. With 3/4 all thru out and very few of them will be 1/2, most of the half inch is just to make the connection for for very short couple feet runs.
I have a well that delivers 25 GPM at 60psi with a main 3/4 inch line that will at some point be replaced with a 1 inch pex line. I am also going to install commercial 1 inch outdoor faucets along with getting 1 inch garden hose as well.
The way to get around the issues with longer runs is to install small manifolds near whatever plumbing group is far away from the water heater. Run a 3/4" line to supply each smaller manifold.
Yeah they selling the hell out of some pipe so a plumber can have a tiny amount of convenience once every 8years or so.
yep exactly
lol i don't think you understand how water flows. Why would a manifold next to the fixture be full of hot water compared to the manifold in the mechanical room? The water will be as cold as the water in the line, until you turn on the water on and move it to the manifold near the fixture. You need hot water flowing to the manifold to keep it hot lmao
@@ryan39584 The point is to avoid stagnant water in long runs that are rarely used. That was the issue raised in the video. If you have manifolds distributed through the house, you only have a short run of 1/2" pipe for the water to get stagnant in. I don't think you understand reading comprehension or critical thinking. Thanks for playing though.
@@ryan39584 Evidently you weren't paying attention at 8:00 where he spoke of having to charge each long home run in the master bath with hot water separately even though the fixtures are only a few feet away from each other. A small manifold in the master batch would eliminate this issue by charging the manifold in the master bath thereby making all nearby water hot rt away. get it?
I thought code dictated pex not be used within a certain distance to and from the water heater?
Run soft water to Reverse Osmosis system for drinking water. It's a little price but worth it.
RO is considered a really bad idea for drinking water in the home. I want RO for certain uses, e.g. nice coffee, but I agree with the World Health Organisation who issued a warning against it
How about putting a manifold per floor with a 3/4" connecting line between floors ?
That would only be helpful if there was hot water heater at each level in the house.
Best way to fix this issue of water waste is point of use small tankless electric water heaters that way you run only cold from manifold. Another not as good way is reduce pipe size to 3/8".
I'm looking at trying the pointof use water heating device running on 220v
Joe Jameson p
@@vitalrights7390 That's an interesting idea. I have had the same thought before, but can see a few potential pitfalls:
* Cost of each of the systems. Especially versus utilization. The less the system is used, the more expensive it becomes in terms of utility.
* Increased maintenance burden. As the build show has mentioned before, tankless heaters are supposed to be flushed every so often.
* Increased electricity installation costs. In the US 220 is rare in most parts of the house. Sending it to every place that needs hot water will require a specialty install, and a larger breaker box because each of those is now a two gang breaker.
* Electricity and water concerns. There are rules about outlets and electricity in wet environments, like everywhere that you would want one of those tankless heaters. I don't know the rules on 220V in that environment, but I imagine it would take some work to make everything safe.
With all of that said, I really love the idea, and hope you can get it to work.
@@vitalrights7390 in a small house, 3/8" is the better solution.
Great videos, Matt! At 3:32 did you mean hot side?
Can’t have pex within 18” of heater Matt here in TX Matt iam sure it’s the same with every state...
.. .it is. in most it's 36".
Glad someone else noticed this. This guy had always irritated me. Hes an actor ( and a bad one) not a tradesman
I have been installing this system in all my new construction in texas for more than 12 years
You could always do a run to just the kitchen or bathroom and then branch off that to the fixtures as you would with traditional copper. Once the feed is charged, no waste, no bulk, easy for remodeling too.
Absolutely agree. While the system above is extremely granular (meaning that I can literally turn off cold or hot water at EVERY SINGLE FIXTURE), probably just as useful would be to plumb it like your breaker box, meaning that one "circuit breaker" turns on or off an entire room, such as a bathroom. Probably just as useful.
You can trunk and branch only the hot then one monoblock for the cold home runs. This way you can do a recirc pump if you would like.
I wish my house was this way:/ I want instant hot water.
Is there a plumber's trick to locating where the water main comes into a single story house?
Most houses are plumbed different depending on year and type of house. Try locating pipe from meter to an out side tap.
To quicken the hot water to the taps in my two story, I ran a 3/4 line from the water heater, to a manifold that I located close to the main bathroom shower on the second floor. (Highest point) This manifold had a return line (uninsulated) back to the water heater and connects at its drain tap.
This allows for a natural convection recirc loop. I have quick hot water to my bathroom, master bed rm bathroom and laundry room.
I also grouped my hot water lines together which allowed me to wrap the bunch with 2 or 3 inch diameter fibreglass pipe insulation in the basement starting from where it groups together after the basement manifold. Once a line leaves the group, it was wrapped in 1/2” diameter. Only pain on doing this was where the pex had a fastener or support.
BTW. Yes the laundry is located closer to the areas where clothes come from, the bedrooms on the second floor. And no the laundry room has never experienced a leaked since I built the house in 1994. I also switched to an on demand water heater in 2006. It has the recirc system included so the existing recirc line could connect into that.
No regrets. I think this manifold set up is great. Thanks for this video.
Thats how boilers work. Explain, do you a dedicated return line?
@@bojack2740 yes a half in line runs back to the water heater. Originally connected in with the water heater tank drain valve, down low. Now I have a tankless heater that accepts return line.
He didn't mention that you can leave a valve halfway, so that it limits the amount of hot water going to, say, the kids bathroom.
what do you mean by "limit hot water". The proper way to do that is by installing a mixing valve at the faucet.
@@jessybwoy8677 I saw one of these setups in a model home. The salesman told me it can be used to keep the water at specific faucets from getting TOO hot.
That dosent make any sense at all. You would only limit the volume of hot water not the temp. So it may only be 2 gallons a minute vs 3 but the water would still come out scalding
@@fac3th3wolf Typical salesman bullshit. Makes no sense at all
Gary Vallone
exactly...
a thermostatic mixing valve is the only way to limit hot water.
I have done the home runs like this for a long time. What I decided to do, was to bring a 3/4 homerun to the group. (Ex. Master bath has a 3/4 trunk to it, with 1/2 and 3/4 branching off of that main trunk). This way I have hot water delivered one time to the group. I also bring a new manifold to each floor. Most remods I do are big, and so I install new water heaters on each floor. Never a demand for water. I am not a fan of tankless.
What if you used a system like this in a large house with point source heaters at fixtures that use hot water
I would think if it was my house a single story I would have a specific closet as close to the middle of the house as possible.
I installed this system on my house. One benefit you forgot to mention is greatly reduced fluctuations in pressure. So when you are in the shower and someone is flushing the toilet or running the sink, you water pressure isn’t constantly fluctuating. Plus with zero fittings and long bends there is considerably less resistance within the plumbing. When I did mine, from the meter I ran 2 1 inch pex to the utility room, 1 to the cold side manibloc and 1 to the on demand water heater. My house is a very tall 2 story house with 2 showers on the 2nd story. With only 43psi of city water I can run both showers, the dishwasher and cloths washer with almost no noticeable pressure loss at the showers. It’s very handy when running 4 kids through the shower in the evening while cleaning up after supper and doing the laundry.
I have the same system in my house and for the last 8 years have been trying to figure out how to reduce the pressure drop in the shower when someone flushes the toilet or turns on another faucet. I have great pressure at the main through the meter. I have had three different plumbers look at this problem and contacted the manufacturer but no one seems to have a fix.
@@Road_Renner did you ever get this fixed?
@@andyvan27 No - never did. We have enough pressure and volume to take a decent shower, but flush a toilet and we get about half the volume of water coming out of the shower head.
@@Road_Renner, just curious I've tried everything but change the main line. I never thought it might be the manifold.
@@andyvan27 If you ever come up with a fix, please let me know. This is crazy. You would think these manifold systems would be great for loss of pressure and volume - but just the opposite. I have tremendous pressure coming into my house and my pressure regulator is set to take it down to 70 psi. Run one faucet and pressure is great. But run another faucet or toilet and I get about half the pressure and volume. I see the one commenter to this video says he only has 43 psi coming in from the street. If my main pressure coming from the street was that low and I flushed a toilet I’d have a trickle coming out of another faucet or shower head. By the way, in my efforts to get this resolved I had a plumber replace the 3/4 inch pex from the pressure regulator and back-flow valve with a one inch line and also replace the back-flow valve thinking that was the problem - that didn’t help. GOOD LUCK BUDDY!
15 seconds to wait for hot water?? ... I think I can survive
Is it just my OCD or something but hot and cold water lines aren't supposed to touch?
The Pex lines are allowed to touch. There's no separation requirement between hot and cold.
Yeah, they could arc! Stay back!
@@482jpsquared lol i was thinking more like wasted hot water due to temperature loss from hot to cold.
If they touch it summons Leviathan
@@hardleecure Pex is not very temperature sensitive; however, if you install it in an exposed attic you do have to insulate it.
Good pros and cons discussion, but wouldn’t you also reduce the momentary pressure drops when multiple fixtures are being used (ie when you’re in the shower especially)?
Not if the piping was sized correctly. In other words if a 3/4 line was ran to a bathroom for instance you would not notice a drop in volume by flushing a toilet while taking a shower. Its all about volume and pipe size
I have had one of these for over 16 years and when running a shower or any other fixture you can tell NO difference if someone else turns on another fixture.
Hey Matt, you've got a second-take at 10:48 where you didn't cut out the first take immediately before. This is great info. Do you think there's any advantage to hybridizing this system, i.e., using fewer discrete lines from a smaller manifold to isolate, say, single rooms instead of each fixture?
Why does the manifold have a key to turn the valves rather than just small valve handles?
Cost.
Very cool. My house is over 100 years old. Plumbing and electric were both after thoughts. And a complete nightmare to figure out.
I own 12 houses and one of my homes has this system in it. 3340 sq. ft. house and I have to say ... it's stupid. I actually lived in that house as my personal home for over 2 years and guess how many times I manipulated the water to just turn off one thing? Like when I installed the RO system in the kitchen... do you think I turned off the one marked "kitchen sink"? I did NOT! I went under the sink and I turned it off at the under-sink location. HELLO! But wait... when I replaced a toilet didn't I turn it off at the manifold then? NOPE! Right at the toilet valve! But how about when I replaced one of my valves under my bathroom sink, THEN didn't I go to the manifold and turn off the one marked "bathroom sink"? NOPE! I turned off the valve in the garage to the entire house 'cause it's easy to do so. I didn't have to look at which one or use the special key I just did the 1/4 turn 1" ball-valve and bam, done and done.
But say you've got a water-leak behind your fridge because the fridge is broken or something and for some reason your valve isn't working and it's 3am and the kitchen is flooding but you've got 8 kids who will be getting up in 3 hours and need the shower and toilets and water! Well then, yup! it's nice to have this kind of control! ... so ... now ... when the F does that ever happen?
Worth the money? Nope.
Worth the no-1"-trunk to 1/2" and 1/4" faucets on the hot side? NOPE!
Advantages? 1
Disadvantages? Many
this is a no-go ... believe me ... I still own and rent out the house and the manifold, now 12 years later, has never been used.
There's your problem.
8 Kids!
I've seen this install setup a few times, you can install a recirc to the system anytime. You essentially run your recirc off one of the hot outlets, however, all it's doing is recirculating the feed line. It doesn't really make a huge difference unless your mech room and manifold is farther away.
The ideal manifold install is through Uponor's manifold system. It's sort of a hybrid trunk and branch system. Essentially you install an in wall manifold on your branch line, and your run your trunks through the manifold. I've had my plumbers do it on several builds now, and it cuts down on a lot of fittings in exchange for a lot more 1/2" pipe. This way your 1/2" pipe runs are usually
No circ system= wait for hot water. Those plastic shut offs will get old and brittle= snapage and leakage. No pros to that system.
yes and YES.
Plumber definitely looks like he knew what he was doing and really put the time in to make it look professional, but a couple things that caught my eye was 1) the 3/4 line to the water heater with the use of insert fittings...if more than 1 person is taking a shower and someone turns on a sink it will be noticeable. 2) Most pex manufacturers recommend 12-18 inches of metal pipe separation between the water heater and the pex. 3)3/4 cold water feeding the water softener...with the 3/4 insert fitting, it is basically choking the waterline down to 1/2"...using an uponor brand or something similar would help solve that or running 1" to the manablock
Dude... that manifold system is the most wasteful use of pipe and water imaginable... I did it in my house 15 years ago... Thought it was the coolest thing ever... And then realized it was the stupidest thing ever... but it looks so f****** rad!
You can still have a recirc system with that ridiculous manifold system... And just add some more plastic pipe to your badass crib!
Agreed, wouldn't PEX-A work better as the inside diameter of the fitting maintain the 3/4" diameter of the pipe?
Plumber looks like he may have a little OCD... Nice looking work.
From www.huduser.gov/portal/publications/pex_design_guide.pdf the pipe temperature limit guideline in 185F (82C). At that temperature, hot water is a health hazard and I've never seen an on demand or immersion heater set to provide water at those temperatures. If it was a pressurised radiator system then definitely the copper is a requirement.
Is there a real plumber out there looking at this to answer this thread properly?
PS my preference is remote manifolds. I installed a 4C+3H manifold in my bathroom in the local linen closet..install went like a charm.
So his downside of having to wait for each hot water source, run the pex to another manifold closer to the bathroom so you don't have to wait as long once the system is charged.
@Brett Matisz Unless you have a circulating system, then you always have to wait for that first fixture to drain the cold water, but Justin's suggestion would mean you wouldn't need to wait as long for the second fixture in that room. Would it be worth a second manifold for those times? I doubt it. I'd rather just run the whole hot water for one bathroom off of one line. That way you could turn off hot water to that room (most of the advantage of a manifold) but still not have so much pex and your second fixture you turn on won't also have to wait (the advantage of a trunked system).
All of that work to keep all the sweeping bends and then the plumber places a hard 90 at the input of the manifold 🤦♂️
Exactly! Not really a fan of this system at all. As well, it needs to be fastened down to prevent 'thumping'. Its probably ok as a bundled trunk but might want to move when branched off.
Good point !!!
I believe the 1/2" to 3/4" diameter pipe bends more easily whereas the larger 1"+ pipe has a sizable bend radius and wouldn't fit without the 90 degree fitting.
Sloppy job, poorly laid out. Wouldn't hire that plumber. Also, by me you need 18" of copper coming out of the water heater before you go to pex.
So installing a water heater on the second floor is impossible with this system. Got it.
Why would you want to?
(asking for a friend)
Can you do a pro/con video on central water heaters vs point of use water heaters? Would running just cold lines in the house, and then lower amp tankless heaters for a bathroom, kitchen or washroom make sense?
imabeapirate Think a tankless gas as a main unit with a small 120V on demand in the kitchen and maybe the bathrooms, the small unit could bridge the gap until the gas fires up and gets hot water to the tap.
I was thinking the same thing. Central water heaters seem a bit outdated and they're definitely bulky, especially if you don't have a basement to put it in.
I personally like large central water heaters that are on timers and point source heaters on any long branch runs. With insulation blankets on water heaters, I set the timer to turn on prior to morning use and the same for the after dinner cleanup and later evening shower.
While 120 degree hot water seems like its good enough, I want nothing to do with Legionella. Hot water needs to be 140F or hotter for safety.
The manifold system system here could be tailored to provide for a long branch with circulation and a smaller manifold close to the end use with a small point source heater.
This is actually something I was wanting to do until I did the actual math on it... Assuming you have an average faucet (2.2GPM according to Google) where you have 50F cold and want 130F hot, it would take 26kW. This means running a dedicated 110A 240V breaker, just for that one faucet. That wire isn't even going to be much smaller than a hot water pipe.
Sure, excluding the kitchen sink and maybe washer, nothing in your house really needs 130F temps. So what about 90F? That's "only" 7kW - so a 30A 240V breaker, which is actually pretty reasonable. But, a lot of older houses (at least in the northeast), only have 100A service to the house.
This is why tankless electric water heaters aren't really a thing. Personally, I think putting in a small gas tankless for each is just impractical since you'd have to run gas everywhere and exhausts for each one.
a central water heater tank seems wasteful. it keeps 50 to 150 or so gallons of water 160 deg. 24/7/365. versus only when you need it.
When doing a manifold style system you should supply water on both ends of the manifold for a more balanced system
You beat me to it....
Is that why the manifold has that port on the bottom going to nothing and capped off?
@@hillaryclinton2415 Is that why the manifold has that port on the bottom going to nothing and capped off?
I redid the plumbing in my house and ran home runs for almost every fixture using 1/2" CPVC from a 3/4" supply. Matt suggest running 3/4" to the bathroom then splitting off. This seems to me that you would have to run twice the hot water before the temperature stabilized . -- Area of a 3/4" pipe is .44 sq in. Area of 1/2" pipe is .19 sq inch. --- Am I missing something?
CPVC becomes brittle with age. It's a code approved material, but it's not considered ethical in the plumbing community to use for service lines.
FYI When you double the diameter of a pipe you also increase the free area flow rate by pi. This "cubes" the output of the pipe. So from the firefighter's handbook, you get 9 times the number of gallons of water from a 2" hose vs a 1" hose...or at least 3 times the water from a 3/4" pipe than a 1/2".
You can absolutely add a recirc pump. Tap each hot run at the fixture, run it back and install another manifold to combine it then circ through the water heater. Use white or an off color of red to indicate circ line. ID the main manifold to indicate recirc and reference the recirc manifold valve for that circuit. Yes it's more pipe, but whats a little more if you are already running home runs for everything.
I feel like this would work well with splitting the system into smaller manifolds, per level. That way, you have one hot and one cold lead to each bathroom and then much shorter runs to the faucet and shower, for example. Thinking that would drastically reduce the amount of plumbing runs and you'd still have the ability to shut things down locally. Kind of a hybrid between this and the standard branched setups you'd see.
But I'm not a plumber or builder, just someone with an interest in keeping up to date on the stuff for future reference
Edit: apparently, I'm not the only one that thought of this
Ya but you would need to install a thermostatic mixing valve to avoid uneven distribution of hot and cold water. If you were to for example flush the toilet while you shower it would cause a flash of hot water with the lack of cold water after flushing said toilet.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a plumber and the highest level of skill I have in plumbing was when i recently replaced/installed the fill valve in my toilet (thus why I’ve been getting plumbing TH-cam vids recommended to me 💀) with barely any (key word barely) complications. I did recently watch a few plumbing videos out of boredom in the middle of the night while I should have been sleeping and I saved 15% on my car insurance by switching Epstein island Auto Insurance. At this point I’m basically a master TH-cam plumber so ask away and I will look up the answer for you 🤗
Wicked, I have seen many houses with of this kind of plumbing. However the manifold was done per story with a circulation connecting the last manifold with the water heater. So da large pipes are always hot and the branches are short and contain little hot wat!
Which ever plumbing contractor did that job did a nice job and you can tell they definitely care about their work!
That's a crappy system and a bad plumbing layout.
What do you base your comment on?
I’ve seen a couple of TH-cam videos where Zurn PEX uses expansion fittings. I was not aware that PEX B could use expansion fittings.
You’re right - ONLY Zurn brand PEX-B claims it can use expansion fittings
I worked on a 3500 square foot house that had a manifold system and water heater on each end of the house to keep the runs short
I’m a plumber and that looks like ass and is a waste of pipe and water.
If one valve on the manifold break you need to replace the entire manifold. Do a DIY manifold to both save money and to not have a bad valve leading to system replacement.
Meh....cap that valve and swap the fixture to one of the many open valves.
On the hot water side, a 1/2" homerun defeats one of the primary benefits of the homerun system - quick hot water delivery. A 3/8" homerun is sufficient for all but a multi-head shower or tub filler, and it has half the capacity of a 1/2" line, so it will deliver hot water in half the time.
BULLSEYE! but there are SO MANY MORE downsides to a manifold. you can take it from a 30 year veteran plumber.
Что это за бред
Water softeners are often the most common cause of premature water heater failure.
naaah.. .salt, water & steel tank. what could possibly go wrong? lmao
A circuit breaker for your house! Should be standard. Very handy for home maintenance.
I really like manifolds but I prefer a hybrid system (a main manifold feeding smaller manifolds around the house). Shorten the runs lengths and you still have a central manifold per room to turn fixtures off. I would install my electrical system the same way (using a sub panel for each floor). A bit more expensive but so much easier to add stuff later on.
That's what I was thinking. One run of hot and cold all the way to the bathroom, then split off for toilet, tub, shower, and sink from there. You wash you hands or shave, the hot line is charged for the shower and vice-versa.
that is a good idea what about a circulation pump ?
@@rickrudd Yes and it's much easier to insulate one big hot pipe than several small ones.
A hybrid system lets you do recirculation to get latency under control (but not perfect) with a fraction as much pipe and insulation.
while remodeling my house this is what i did some what. instead i only have a upstairs bath and downstairs. my small mechanical room is under my stairs in the kitchen. so the kitchen just has a main feed to the sink and then branch off for a pot filler, hose bib, and ice maker. back in the mechanical room i went up with a main, hit the bath room and branch off to the sink, toilet and shower. first floor bath, i ran a main and copper headers, that reduce to 1/2. and then runs to the clothes washer and then other branches for shower, toilet, and sink. It works quite well. I spent the extra money and have plenty of ball valves installed. my 1 inch main has a valve, then my 3/4 has a valve at the transition, then when it comes up to to the room another valve, then valves to isolate the softener, then valves for upstairs, and water heater isolation, and hard water supply isolation to hard water points. and isolation under the house at the headers. reduced fittings by doing more sweeps and keep it loose for expansion. in the future once i gather up my control system parts from work as we start upgrading customers BAS ill collect the otherwise thrown out good controllers and buy some actuators and install a main water shut off valve that can be controlled as well as add some flood sensors so if i have a leak and im not home it can automatically shut the water off. as well as tie in some other stuff in the house such as my HVAC. but thats another story. anyway so far it seems to work quite well. im running a 27kw tankless water heater, it doesnt do to bad running 2 showers at the same time, or running a bath and taking a shower or running a shower and 2 sinks. whats also nice is say you run the clothes washer and then use the downstairs shower you already have hot water almost immediately since they are tied to the same header. now upstairs wont see much gain from it unless some one was to wash there hands or something and then someone else went to hop in the shower then you could see a gain from it. i wouldnt mind doing a recalculation system however it wouldnt fit in to well with a tankless water heater, even though i have thought of some ideas how to make a tankless work with it and using one of our controllers, some sensors and relays as well as a storage tank, i could make it work however would then take away from the reason to have the tankless anyway since the plus to the tankless is since no one is home x amount of hours a day its not sitting there burning energy to heat a tank of water. unless i set it up with a schedule to where it will start the system at a specific time and stop at a specific time. or have timed intervals.
Just like electrical...how is it not all SMART yet? And not at astronomical prices? (I walk into my house and see water leaking, I have my AirPods in, I say “hey Siri shut off all water”, or to which room). Also those systems could monitor usage on each electrical outlet or water fixture.
Also...I already pay TH-cam so I don’t have to have commercials :)
that is a lot of insulation for HW
Isn’t the sewer pipe wrong at 2:14? I see a vertical wye being used. Shouldn’t that be a sani tee?
I think your math was a little off for the hot water line. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Volume (V) = Area (A) * Length (L). Area (A) = (pi)*(I.D.^2)/4. So V = (pi)*(I.D.^2)*(L)/(4). Input the numbers: V = (pi)*(0.5^2)*(25*12)/4 = 58.9 sq in. = 0.25 gal
Having the same manifold service hot and cold, seems it would heat the cold water and cool the hot unless its very well insulated...
Their isolated from each other. The hot and cold line do not come in contact with each other. Besides - in order to get cold or hot water u have to run the water till the line clears - otherwise it's just room temperature. Personally I think this is a waste of money. U have to use more pex and waste water.
Yes what about legionella
Not when the water is running, not enough time or heat the water
@mattrisinger (NEW BUILD) HOT water RECIRCULATION PLUMBING.......
For the hot water supply to circulate.....Couldn't you take a different color PEX line (IE.clear/white, purple, black) from a "T" that is placed at the end of each run;
Then said ___(color)___ PEX would "homerun" back down to, yet another manifold;
Then said PEX would leave manifold by FLOPPING of ports the inlet & outlet ports.
(used to be inlet, is NOW OUTLET)
Your con would be solved with this system which i have install 13 of them , point of use tankless for the long distance lines for hot.
Brad's Home Improvements what about also putting in a recirculation fixture with a timer and back up battery?
@@davidb1132 wouldnt know first hand. I Have not had any radiant heating systems in the ones i have installed. Which is what i am assuming your refering to.Meaning none of the ones I install had Recirculating systems.
Hello again Matt. I did install one of these on my prior home. I also had an on demand tank installed. The hot water travelled short enough distances that it was minimal loss, or put a water pitcher in the shower to use for plants later. But this in home run setup with an on demand left me continuous hot showers when I needed for guests, or just long enough for my family of two when we were alone. The gain in not heating water all day was more than enough to reduce any cost of water lost in bringing hot water up to the point of use. Also, 1/2" lines going vertical were easier on the pressure variant vs. a wider column of water. No pumps were needed and if you want to add more lines for a shower, add away and have multiple heads running on a second floor. My setup was 36 circuits, no split or shared lines. All stub outs to the cabinet and I tape my exposed tube with duct tape, the metal looking one without logos. It was easy to secure the lines in walls and having zero joints also helped against joint or 90 degree angles causing resistance to pressure. I am a "Handyman" but I do pull permits on my own home and have been appreciated by the electrical or plumbing inspectors. So it can be done by a homeowner who worries about all the work. Great show and thank you for sharing your info with us.
That install should definitely have more than a 3/4 ilet
daddy and daughter . It depends how many bathrooms, but in general rarely a family is using both showers in the same time.
You math isn't right. It's 1/2 gallon for 50 feet of 1/2". 1/2" PEX only has an ID of .485", which is why they came up with 5/8" PEX to approximate the flow of 1/2" copper .569, which is still well behind 1/2" Schedule 40 .622. Shucks, the OD of 1/2" PEX will almost fit inside of 1/2" Schedule 40. The upside of course is to single low-flow-fixtures, it speeds things up.
IMO coming in with 3/4" PEX is way too small so there will be a pretty good pressure drop from other loads. It needs 1" because 3/4" PEX .681" flows nothing like 3/4" Schedule 40 .824. There is a lot going on there.
I agree in that that design of having no insulated lines is not conducive to a gravity or pump recirculating system nor preserving heat on long runs.
A thought would be to do a branch system to things such as toilets, hose bibs, ice maker, and make or buy a simply 1" manifold with 1/2" PEX-A and insulate the pipes to showers and sinks to improve response times and pressure equalization since the cold and hot would be located at the hot water heater. You could run dedicated warm water returns and check valves easily that way as well.
Actually clumping all the hot water pipes together helps to keep them warm.
Anyone taking a shower is warming up the water in the other pipes for everyone else.
Not by much though. You have a point but i dont see noticing a difference
very true. then insulate the clump of lines. not bad.
We had one of these worthless things! Leaked something terrible! Bought new valves and it still leaked. Paid a plumber a lot of money to replace it with metal valves. WORTHLESS TRASH!! If you install one of these cheaply made, but expensive to buy manifolds, you’ll be SORRY!😬
I'm not sure I'm a fan. I get the idea that you get a continuous run of pipe so fewer connections. In theory you will end up with extra pipe. Pieces that were not long enough to complete your run.
And I cannot stomach the loss of water and the long wait times for hot water. I think this is very inefficient and wasteful.
Putting in a recirculation pump is also not a great idea on a domestic home as it is extremely expensive to run.
Just my thoughts.
@Hulk Smash the circulation pump is not the energy guzzler. The heat loss through the pipe is the problem. It can be as much as 12 watts per m
I was commercially licensed in 1989, plumbed custom homes for 20 years, now I do mostly service. I've encountered these systems several times- in each case, the home owner wanted rid of the system- mind you- not my suggestion- THEIRS. and I agree. there ARE NO ADVANTAGES to this system. hot water ALWAYS TAKES LONGER to get to fixtures. and there is NO practical way to fix this. shutting down an individual line to a fixture? that's what stops at fixtures are for. even tub/shower valves come with that feature BUILT IN now. the valves at the manifold are plastic- and are absolute krap. give me a good watts or apollo ball valve ANY DAY. way more pipe wasted, way more labor wasted.
I understand we all need to make money however not a fan of dropping adds in mid of video
Honestly I would never ever install a manifold in any house, it waste a lot of water for no reason. You're gonna wait for the hot water to arrive at every single fixture, not to mention you are gonna waste an incredible amount of pipe for no reason. I will always install a shut-off valve underneath every fixture. I always install shower rough that have two shut-off valves built-in. The only real incovenience is with the tub and exterior line, you're gonna have have to open the wall or ceilling to cap those off or take out the bathtub. I've been a plumber for 15 years now and I've worked with every available material and in my opinion regular pex is the most cost efficient and effective way to pipe a house. 3/4 pex is more than adequate to feed a two bathrooms house with a kitchen, laundry and two exterior line. Add another toilet and lavatory and you've reached the limit for that size of pipe. I usually run mutiple 3/4 lines from the main water source whenever i have a large house with 3-4-5-6++ bathrooms. Working with 1in pex is not really pleasant and easy because its not that flexible and its more costly than running multiple 3/4 lines. To ensure an adequate water supply to all the fixture i always run a 3/4 line all the way until the last two fixtures and only at that point will I reduce down to 1/2in. 99% of fixture (exept bath and shower) have 3/8 internal lines if not 1/4. I used to run a speedway with a shut-off valve to the bath faucet but i've had issues where it wouldnt get enough water sometimes so now i always run directly to the faucet with 1/2 pex, its sometimes a bit more difficult to connect the faucet but ive never had another issue since then. I also run a 3/4 line all the way to the shower faucet and connect it to a copper reducer because i've had issues in the past with certain shower faucet that wouldnt get enough water. Ever since i started following these guidelines, as long as the main water line supplied enough water and pressure, ive never had a complaint or problem.
"It could be a long time before hot water." No, Matt. The first manifold distributed system I installed was 1991. Every pipe was a home run, there were no concealed connections in the system except two. Those two were the master bedroom shower, a dedicated shower, the backside of the Grohe shower valve drywall behind the valve. In the entire remainder of the house, the pipes exited to the shut off valve under the sink or toilet,, visually and manually accessible. The REASON I went with a distributed system was for quick hot water availability to the master bedroom shower. I was presented with two choices only at the engineering stage. With 3 full and 1 half bath, second floor laundry. The minimum riser from basement to second floor was a 1 inch riser. A one inch riser times 20 vertical feet, plus 20 horizontal feet, requires a heated hot water circulating loop,,, or limited hot water if another shower and the laundry tub is filling,, or a LONG time to bring hot water to the Master Bedroom shower. Distributed systems fed with a 1" to the manifold are surge proof. Flush all the toilets you want,, you will never need to have a pressure balanced protector. (Except code still will require it for another decade or two.)
So,,for the house in 1991 , a 7/16ths ID (the tech of the day) gray PEX plastic,, plastic is not the heat thief as is copper, (Note: I used zero plastic fitting in the entire system) delivered hot to the master shower in 12 seconds, 70 pipe feet away. 1/2 , 3/4 and 1" copper cannot come close to the performance of a PEX distributed system. I have installed many since then. The goal and the benefit is zero joints in the walls. I used 500 and 1000 foot reels of pipe, set up on a spinning pipe between ladders to pull the pipes through the house, just like Romex. It requires a different mind set,,,,, We think, because of copper, threaded, and CPVC,, we think in right angle bends. Wipe that thinking from your mind and think in terms of a race track with high speed large radius, corners all of radii and parabolas, ,,, a pipe routing can, and should be,, the longest radii that you can envision,, Drill all your holes in the direction of the bend. Making the turn from a 2X10 floor into a 2X4 wall, it is easy to maintain a 20 inch or 30 inch radius. Feeding hot and cold to a 2 sink vanity, toilet, rear yard hose bib, and hot for dish washer and hot and cold for the kitchen sink,,, 9 runs in one wall,,, you do the entire thing with 9 7/8" holes, in each stud, center of wall the farthest run a 7 foot radius. Everything smooth and uninterrupted. I would never bundle my supplies under a basement joist,,, how can you finish the ceiling without a pipe chase, or dropped ceiling,,, and you have lost one of the benefits of many small easy to drill holes in soft arcs, and no hangers or clips. I have done multiple shower rooms for the Boy Scouts,, each shower getting a dedicated hot and cold,,,, zero surge,, zero pressure change when someone else turns theirs on or off.
When you get the hang of the system, one man can run all the supplies from basement manifold to inside of every vanity and sink base, shower access, and laundry room wall,, in a single day. And never pull out a torch. It is actually easier and faster than pulling electrical cables,, the plastic pipe is a little flexible and a little rigid and the plastic PEX is slippery against the wood. If you have kept to generous bends,and holes drilled in the direction you are going, , it pulls easy and very fast.
The only change I would ask of materials suppliers. The absolute ideal ID for a distributed system is 3/8", a 3/8ths inch PEX line,,, a one centimeter line.,, fairly thick wall, zero right angle bends, would give a 5 gallon per minute flow rate. Smaller and easier to pull,, and yet much faster hot water response. After 27 years? of installing them in my projects, there is nothing faster, there is nothing less expensive, and there is nothing better than a distributed system. What you show on the wall,,, we all should be doing,, with zero fitting buried in the walls,, and zero pipes in outside walls.
This exactly. I installed the Manabloc system on a 1949 house I remodeled 10 years ago. I needed to replace old galvanized water pipe throughout the house. Most of my runs were ⅜" PEX which is more than adequate for faucets and toilets and ½" for bath, shower, laundry and hoses. Very fast heat up throughout the house and no more pressure drop resulting in cold or scalding hot showers.
That is exactly my experience too. Going to the 1/2 for the tub fill makes good sense. The two seater whirlpool tub took a long time to fill. Most of my recent installs have been 1/2 inch,,, because 1/2 inch is so available. The old pex was about 7/16ths ID,,, never had any trouble with delivery rates. Part of it I think is down to the smooth curves and no right angle bends,, the water speeds through.
Every video I watch for Pros and Cons of PEX. No one talks about it.
PEX is great but not for running under house or attics or even walls.
Unlike copper pipes, PEX have 25-50 year life expectancy. It could be even shorter.
The cons are: does not like daylight, prone to chlorine damage, prone to rodents, bacteria magnet, and foul taste from plastic chemicals.
Only reason why PEX got popular is. You don't have to be highly skilled to use PEX.
Copper is time consuming, expensive, lack of skilled copper plumbers, and higher wages for copper plumber vs PEX plumber.
I like that drinking and ice water (as well as outside taps) are branched out before the softener, to both remove the taste of softening, and to not waste the softening on watering the garden.
Question.....I believe I have such a PEX manifold hidden in between drywall ( wall between attached garage and inside entry/laundry room.). The house is in the South and I "occasionally" get line freeze when we have an uncharacteristic cold-snap freeze. So....I'm thinking of using one of those under-sink-pumps and cold/hot blending systems that are nornally used to help speed up hot water delivery.....BUT.....they also can be configured to blend hot/cold lines to prevent line freezing. My question--> these sysems typically work best when the under-sink pump is located at the FURTHEST AWAY sink from the hot water heater, and if the system uses a more conventional branch system of piping with main line trunk supply and return. Will this freeze protection work for a spaghetti system like this PEX system, without a main trunk/branch arrangement?.....or won't I get a nice "blended" temp with this throughout the house?
One unmentioned advantage is that this system is *way* easier to use when replacing pipes in an existing house and the PEX can be snaked through the walls.
Some other notes:
In the south: we put these in our garage.
If you really want to use shared piping to a distant location you can do that; simply put a manifold or split in [for example] your master bath. You won't have the single-outlet-per-output in your main manifold; but you'll still get many of the advantages.
Closed hot loops don't work well with instant-on heaters (because you have to keep re-heating the water); so sometimes the inability of this system to use a closed loop isn't really a disadvantage.
You are right that these aren't insulated. I've never seen insulated plumbing pipe (but I'm in the south: maybe it's different in the north).
I'm not convinced that "hot shower then hot sink almost immediately before/after" is a common enough scenario to make it something to account for.
The lack of joints improves water pressure.
this guy isn't a plumber, he shouldnt being acting as a expert on pex manifold
contractors are not plumbers
If i were to build a new house, I would run pipes directly to every floor, then use the distribution on each floor in a closet, that can be closed in an emergency.
BISKIT Garcia Matt did that in one of his builds. It was a really interesting design
Smart idea! Definitely worth it if you can do it from the get-go!
I would recommend to check your state plumbing codes before installing. In my state you can’t have a direct connection of pex to the water heater. You must have at least 18” of Ferris piping between the pex and the water heater.
I like and have installed PEX manifolds, but I don't consider this to be a "pretty" installation and I do not like Viega system manifolds.
I install pipe insulation on both cold and hot PEX lines. I use pipe clamps to the hold the insulation in place. This allows for no thermal breaks in the insulation, allows for expansion/contraction of the PEX material and helps to keep the cold water lines from sweating.
I also would have ran non-softened water lines to the toilets (if this is a city water system).
The installer/homeowner should have installed a whole house water filter in between the water meter and the input line to the water softener.
Most of the softener brands that I have installed in the past require a certain level of micron filtration on the incoming water line or it will void the water softener warranty.
TechSkills Please elaborate on what exactly you don't like about the Viega manifolds? I looked at all the different manifolds before choosing the Viega Manablock for my house. I liked the layout, easy repair ability of valves, included ready made labels, cost and the non-corrosive construction (since we have very hard water here.) As I mentioned in another comment above, it has even survived a few minor freeze-ups out here.
Could you use mani-block for cold only, and then trunk-twig for hot?
Plumbing code requires 18 inches of separation between the PEX and the water heater. Use a stainless or copper flex line.
THANK YOU
Why is there zero INSULATION on the PEX pipes? The pipe covering also stops the UV from killing the pipe. Naked PEX B is a poor combo.