Interesting race... had me shouting move up at points when they stopped pedalling and he was noodling along. Also that sprint is pretty damn good. Also Mr. Trek Madone slid up the pack like a shark through water
This race looked almost goofy - so many strong looking riders w/ nice bikes but nobody is pedaling, gaps on gaps, interesting cornering, not sheltering from the wind, etc..
It's the age thing. Makes us more cautious. Which LR referred to -- these folks have jobs and families. Even in spirited group rides I'll let wheels go if I have any doubts about the bike handling skills of guys around me.
I’ve raced that race a few times, it’s actually held on an operational airport in Pennsylvania. The finish straight is a 2% incline, and then you come back down on the back side, hence all the coasting.
“flouro Trek rider” in the house. First thing... I’ve watched your vids before and find them extremely annoying because you’re giving away too many secrets. Would you guys knock it off already?🤫🤣. Seriously tho, the GoPro doesn’t quite show the gradient and how off camber that final turn is. It’s very tricky and it feels like the asphalt is really falling away from you. You say a little prayer to the tire gods before you go in hot😉. The long uphill finishing straight into a cross/headwind was brutal on the front. The course is totally exposed. I know you guys like deep analysis so here’s a few more layers. This race takes place in southeastern PA on Mother’s day weekend and we often get non local guys visiting for the holiday. The two guys up the road (Durso/Schreiber) are very strong riders from North Jersey/NY and were given too much freedom. I knew that but couldn’t get cooperation b/c no one recognized their strength as non locals and a few teammates blocked very effectively which is easy to do on this course. The downhill is very fast but with wind from the left the group usually hugs the right gutter so to move up you have to swing wide left into the wind at 30+ mph and then be wide right into the downhill 180 degree turn to make it worth the effort. I tried to bridge solo with 7-8 laps to go. The place to attack is actually just before the finish line as everyone lets off the gas paying for the effort up the hill and then get as aero as possible going down the backside hill. I got within a handful of seconds to the break and just couldn’t latch on. I decided to fall back very exhausted and wait for the sprint. There was a bit of skill and a lot of luck in those last few laps. Thanks for the kind words fellas👍🏻.
I was surprised you didn't comment on the side of road. Had to be inside (left) coming into last corner to stay out of wind. Once he got out of the wind he closed the gap quickly to the front.
think its also a big case of everyone else starting to fade, they dam near started from 550m to go afterall. he shoulda pushed left right after coming out of the corner but he went outside of one guy and moved over after he passed him
@@LanterneRougeCycling not to sure but will check i found some footage on youtube that would probably suite your style of commentary i think the course is in scarbrough and is hilly th-cam.com/video/1T9i1DsCHd0/w-d-xo.html is the video link and you might have to look into the course route thanks for the reply
Looks like Justin could have won with 100 meters gap had he moved up just a little earlier. This footage is proof that FTP and raw power in general is not enough to win these races. Also, he needs to get more much more aggressive in riding: filling every open spot and fighting for proper position is key when the group is so big and everyone seems to be riding at a comfortable pace. Keep up with the good work guys!
takes a little bravery to fill every gap ahead of yourself since it's likely you will filter into the front and be stuck in the wind for a little while.
A video that talks about setting up teammates with a strength in TT in a breakaway group and where to sit to capitalize on those breaks if you are a lone wolf. Is this just a roulette wheel or can you do things to increase likelihood it will succeed?
Question from a Cat 4: It was spoken to in the video about filling gaps & not ok to chop people off if they have the wheel - when is it ok for me to slide in and take the guy's wheel? I often come across the situation in a crit where I'll take the front (working for a teammate or if I just want a good workout) and then want to slot back in 6th or 7th wheel but sometimes am forced to go all the way to the back of the field because I don't know how to legally/safely take the wheel from someone else & they won't let me in mid pack.
theres a difference between chopping and taking your team mates wheel/working on the front. you dont swing across someones front wheel and cause them to brake or swerve, thats just being a douche. also kinda depends on what cat youre racing, as a 4 if youre even slightly assertive most 4s will let it go. try taking someones wheel in the 1/2s and its never gonna happen. its kinda feel, you get your bars in the right place and just slowly take the position you want if theyre not letting you in. id say one thing to try is instead of swinging off the front just slip down right next to the guy instead of having a bike width gap between you and the next guy on the front. MOST of the time people are more then willing to let someone else in if theyre willing to work on the front. i know i love to sit in the top 10-15 in a crit and just float through the corners. you want in and to keep working on the front? BE MY GUEST. last few laps though? or crucial corner/hill whatever coming up? theres no chance in hell i let you take the wheel im on. at that point ive already decided what im doing and im not letting you change that. ive had many many many times on the track where i want to move around and you have to be somewhat assertive yet slowly work your way into a different position. i wont shove someone out of the way, but if theres a gap and i can get my bars or wheel there in front of you its my spot now. i also happen to end up in post race discussions as someone whos a bit more agressive then people expect, but im also a 4 and i have no problem filling small gaps and riding tight/bouncing off shoulders. dont push unless its necessary, but dont be afraid to wedge your way into a gap once you see it. just gotta react, if you think about it its too late
@@NorCalCycling did you race professionally? I myself raced for over 8 years. Have 8 national titles, U-17, junior, u-23 and elite. I always had a lower np than anyone else from my team because of my positioning in the bunch. Even though we had the same waight equipment etc. The "art" of positioning is really hard to learn. Some are born with the skill some have to work for it. One thing is watching a video and commentating on a race. Usually we forget that decisions are made on a bike under a stressful situation like the final kilometers of a race. You're adrenaline is high you're puls is pumping you're breathing hard. So mistakes can happen. BUT if you have such footage of yourself racing you can sit down and see where the mistakes were made. Try to keep calm in such situations. Go to a few races and just practice positioning don't think about the result. The vast majority of my career I raced alone so I was forced to use other people to my benefit. Squeeze every little drop of recovery during a race. Use momentum use the corners use shelter. Even in a peleton of 200 people you can move from position 200 to position 15-20 through the middle of the pac. The key is patince and a cool head.
Unfortunately they had to cancel the race for next year it was a awesome race but in order to win this race its on a breakaway or third wheel into the final hairpin
I love these videos, I would like to see what is on the channel from Cat 5-Cat 1, for me breakaways are more interesting then sprints, but positining is crucial for every rider. So continue guys, you´re awesome!
Always keep pedaling. Not necessarily smashing the pedals or when cornering. Try it. The hike is more efficient. There is a reason your bike is noisy while coasting 2 The I s I ncredi ly efficient. You will be amazed how. Quickly it returns to the static position 3its a race. Your goal is to go as fast as you can for as long as you can Remember if you are not moving up you are moving. iMO. But then what do I knoq.
Is the video made to show bad positioning prior to the sprint? Came here to see some positioning -> Power savings :D But I am in doubt now. Cause I dont understand why you would let em go at 800m, with a strong tailwind.
This wasn’t mentioned but the positioning was poor all around by everyone on the final run in to the line in respect to the cross head wind. The guys contesting the win at the front should have moved to the far left of the tarmac to force gutter everyone behind them. 👌👍
Jeff - I so enjoy your videos. You have a great speaking voice, you are unassuming and humble, knowledgeable and skillful in cycling. Ok, so you aren't always up in the podium position but that makes for a great teaching videos (sorry!) I have spend a long time "trying" to learn what to do and what not to do in CRITS - but I can sit back and watch what the right thing is to do with your videos. Keep them videos coming! Also...in the off season, do more videos about gear, warm-up, practice, training, etc. ...and also, more about PA cycling too! OK Smoketown Airport Crit is cool but more PA stuff! (Especially in Allentown / Trexlertown (Velodrome) ride/racing! 👍 BTW Bobby Lea (multi-National Champ and 3x Olympian set KOM at Smoketown Airport Crit after riding some +40 miles to get there, raced, got STRAVA KOM, and a podium! Also, check out local PA cyclist Shane Kline at Lower Providence (PA) in 2018 video (he came in 2nd to Justin William at Nationals!) ...oh what skill!
Hey guys, nice video analysis! Im into improving position all the time on a race but in the very end i always cant fight the moment and i get stucked at the back. Im was going to say that if you can comment some footage of mine, even if i dont race as Elite or in USA. Just to get some personal tips. Let me know if youre interested!
I have some material of a Fixed Race where i end up losing wheel because of burning lungs too hard. Obviously its not on my channel but i can send it if you like.
So, am I the only one thinking that if you have a crosswind tailwind that you should be on the windward side to get pushed a little by the wind? Being on the sheltered side with a crosswind tailwind just means you don't benefit from the component of the wind that is behind you. The force of the wind on you is the cosine of its angle to you and therefore a 60-degree crosswind from behind would push you along with half the force of a true tailwind.
I try to be as concise as possible, but often I have a lot to say with not much time, especially at the most critical parts of the race (last couple laps) I'm working on being even more concise, thanks for your input.
@@rjbman93 my bad I should have been more explicit. I too enjoy the "slowdown" to point out what I should be looking for. In earlier vids, @norcal would pause the video, which I prefer. The recent 2-3 vids have done rewinds, which I could do without. Anyway, I'm splitting hairs, its all good stuff, and only mention it at all because @norcal asked for feedback in the past.
on a course like this I would be super tempted to just go TT mode on the tail wind side around through to the last corner and hope that noone else can keep up with the pace. This guy was coasting on the tailwind section going 27mph, if he just did a reasonable consistent power it could easily be 35mph
Touching and yelling is behavior that states, "I can't handle this situation I've put myself in". The person in front has no obligation to your assumed entitlement or your problems.
The pink w/light blue forks Specialized is one of the ugliest colour schemes ever imagined. To top it, looks they closed their eyes and pointed at ‘The book of fuggly cycling kit colour combos’ for the mess they are wearing!
What a rad surprise! LR you better have cleared this fling w Benji 😂 @norcal - 162k subscribers @lanterne - 192k subscribers Both worthy of millions or possibly billions more
Interesting race... had me shouting move up at points when they stopped pedalling and he was noodling along. Also that sprint is pretty damn good.
Also Mr. Trek Madone slid up the pack like a shark through water
Agreed
This race looked almost goofy - so many strong looking riders w/ nice bikes but nobody is pedaling, gaps on gaps, interesting cornering, not sheltering from the wind, etc..
It's the age thing. Makes us more cautious. Which LR referred to -- these folks have jobs and families. Even in spirited group rides I'll let wheels go if I have any doubts about the bike handling skills of guys around me.
Also, no guttering! 🤣 too much lovey dovey in this masters race. Mutiny builds character 🤣🤣
I’ve learnt more watching your videos then I did from my professional cycling coach in 3 years.
I’ve raced that race a few times, it’s actually held on an operational airport in Pennsylvania. The finish straight is a 2% incline, and then you come back down on the back side, hence all the coasting.
Even with a few imperfect moments he still smoked em at the end !
Great collaboration (Lanterne/Jeff) looking forward to more!
“Hotdog style”
“flouro Trek rider” in the house. First thing... I’ve watched your vids before and find them extremely annoying because you’re giving away too many secrets. Would you guys knock it off already?🤫🤣.
Seriously tho, the GoPro doesn’t quite show the gradient and how off camber that final turn is. It’s very tricky and it feels like the asphalt is really falling away from you. You say a little prayer to the tire gods before you go in hot😉.
The long uphill finishing straight into a cross/headwind was brutal on the front. The course is totally exposed. I know you guys like deep analysis so here’s a few more layers. This race takes place in southeastern PA on Mother’s day weekend and we often get non local guys visiting for the holiday. The two guys up the road (Durso/Schreiber) are very strong riders from North Jersey/NY and were given too much freedom. I knew that but couldn’t get cooperation b/c no one recognized their strength as non locals and a few teammates blocked very effectively which is easy to do on this course. The downhill is very fast but with wind from the left the group usually hugs the right gutter so to move up you have to swing wide left into the wind at 30+ mph and then be wide right into the downhill 180 degree turn to make it worth the effort.
I tried to bridge solo with 7-8 laps to go. The place to attack is actually just before the finish line as everyone lets off the gas paying for the effort up the hill and then get as aero as possible going down the backside hill. I got within a handful of seconds to the break and just couldn’t latch on. I decided to fall back very exhausted and wait for the sprint. There was a bit of skill and a lot of luck in those last few laps. Thanks for the kind words fellas👍🏻.
Thanks for chiming in! and congrats on the result.
Love this - always been a fan of race craft over watts.
God damn his accelerations out of the hairpins are more than my max power when I'm fresh.
Justin is strong!
Hey... I was there 😂 I'm 15 and race cat 5. I was sitting on the left side under the pop up tent 😂
GREATEST COLLABORATION IN THE WORLD!
Love this content. Thanks for taking the time. Learning lots!
I know I can't keep up with these guys but it's amazing that I ride with many of these guys in Lancaster Bike Club.
I was surprised you didn't comment on the side of road. Had to be inside (left) coming into last corner to stay out of wind. Once he got out of the wind he closed the gap quickly to the front.
think its also a big case of everyone else starting to fade, they dam near started from 550m to go afterall. he shoulda pushed left right after coming out of the corner but he went outside of one guy and moved over after he passed him
Love these collabs with LR!
Wow Jeff has gone global :) . Lantern Rouge collabs!
2:28: 1,300 watts for 13 seconds? Wow, that’s insane. Is there a video of that? I can only hold 1300 watts for 5 seconds.
great video really enjoy your content please could you do a junior race commentary/analysis as it would really help me thanks keep it up
I would be happy to if someone sends me the raw footage and data file.
@@NorCalCycling I'd have sent some in if British cycling allowed us to film them 😬
@@NorCalCycling i would send some but the british cycling rules dont allow it maybe look at the british cycling livestreams and thanks for the reply
@@samabbott7286 Do you lads do any unsanctioned races where you could use the go pros?
@@LanterneRougeCycling not to sure but will check i found some footage on youtube that would probably suite your style of commentary i think the course is in scarbrough and is hilly th-cam.com/video/1T9i1DsCHd0/w-d-xo.html is the video link and you might have to look into the course route thanks for the reply
Looks like Justin could have won with 100 meters gap had he moved up just a little earlier. This footage is proof that FTP and raw power in general is not enough to win these races.
Also, he needs to get more much more aggressive in riding: filling every open spot and fighting for proper position is key when the group is so big and everyone seems to be riding at a comfortable pace.
Keep up with the good work guys!
takes a little bravery to fill every gap ahead of yourself since it's likely you will filter into the front and be stuck in the wind for a little while.
A video that talks about setting up teammates with a strength in TT in a breakaway group and where to sit to capitalize on those breaks if you are a lone wolf. Is this just a roulette wheel or can you do things to increase likelihood it will succeed?
Great Commentary with LR!! Thx for sharing!!!
Another norcal and lantern rouge collab? Chips out beers out time to put these carbs per kilo down 🍿🍺
Beer and chips gut out!
Question from a Cat 4: It was spoken to in the video about filling gaps & not ok to chop people off if they have the wheel - when is it ok for me to slide in and take the guy's wheel? I often come across the situation in a crit where I'll take the front (working for a teammate or if I just want a good workout) and then want to slot back in 6th or 7th wheel but sometimes am forced to go all the way to the back of the field because I don't know how to legally/safely take the wheel from someone else & they won't let me in mid pack.
theres a difference between chopping and taking your team mates wheel/working on the front. you dont swing across someones front wheel and cause them to brake or swerve, thats just being a douche. also kinda depends on what cat youre racing, as a 4 if youre even slightly assertive most 4s will let it go. try taking someones wheel in the 1/2s and its never gonna happen. its kinda feel, you get your bars in the right place and just slowly take the position you want if theyre not letting you in. id say one thing to try is instead of swinging off the front just slip down right next to the guy instead of having a bike width gap between you and the next guy on the front. MOST of the time people are more then willing to let someone else in if theyre willing to work on the front. i know i love to sit in the top 10-15 in a crit and just float through the corners. you want in and to keep working on the front? BE MY GUEST. last few laps though? or crucial corner/hill whatever coming up? theres no chance in hell i let you take the wheel im on. at that point ive already decided what im doing and im not letting you change that. ive had many many many times on the track where i want to move around and you have to be somewhat assertive yet slowly work your way into a different position. i wont shove someone out of the way, but if theres a gap and i can get my bars or wheel there in front of you its my spot now.
i also happen to end up in post race discussions as someone whos a bit more agressive then people expect, but im also a 4 and i have no problem filling small gaps and riding tight/bouncing off shoulders. dont push unless its necessary, but dont be afraid to wedge your way into a gap once you see it. just gotta react, if you think about it its too late
Love this collab. Position is everything!!
really interesting featuring as always! keep doing it, it is awesome
Loving these collabs
Nice work as always, and I continue to learn something new each time👌🏽Thanks...
Just a question. How many years of racing do you guys have? The commentators I mean
Over 10
@@NorCalCycling did you race professionally?
I myself raced for over 8 years. Have 8 national titles, U-17, junior, u-23 and elite. I always had a lower np than anyone else from my team because of my positioning in the bunch. Even though we had the same waight equipment etc.
The "art" of positioning is really hard to learn. Some are born with the skill some have to work for it. One thing is watching a video and commentating on a race.
Usually we forget that decisions are made on a bike under a stressful situation like the final kilometers of a race. You're adrenaline is high you're puls is pumping you're breathing hard. So mistakes can happen. BUT if you have such footage of yourself racing you can sit down and see where the mistakes were made.
Try to keep calm in such situations. Go to a few races and just practice positioning don't think about the result.
The vast majority of my career I raced alone so I was forced to use other people to my benefit. Squeeze every little drop of recovery during a race. Use momentum use the corners use shelter.
Even in a peleton of 200 people you can move from position 200 to position 15-20 through the middle of the pac. The key is patince and a cool head.
@NotCal cycling- smoketown is a long standing East cost crit. Great course on a lightly used airport
Unfortunately they had to cancel the race for next year it was a awesome race but in order to win this race its on a breakaway or third wheel into the final hairpin
Another super helpful collaboration - am putting my new found positioning tactics into practice tomorrow 👍🙏
5:32, "there's a reason I paused it right here". Commercial Ad appears at this very moment. LoL
How strong is Lanterne Rouge? I’ve been watching his videos for a while now and I don’t remember him mentioning his FTP or anything...
100 watt FTP
@@LanterneRougeCycling Is.... Is that going to be a fair race?
@@craigfirman1809 Position trumps power...but for real, Norcal would destroy me haha
I love these videos, I would like to see what is on the channel from Cat 5-Cat 1, for me breakaways are more interesting then sprints, but positining is crucial for every rider. So continue guys, you´re awesome!
Always keep pedaling. Not necessarily smashing the pedals or when cornering.
Try it.
The hike is more efficient. There is a reason your bike is noisy while coasting
2
The I s I ncredi ly efficient. You will be amazed how. Quickly it returns to the static position
3its a race. Your goal is to go as fast as you can for as long as you can
Remember if you are not moving up you are moving.
iMO. But then what do I knoq.
Dope collab
Is the video made to show bad positioning prior to the sprint?
Came here to see some positioning -> Power savings :D But I am in doubt now. Cause I dont understand why you would let em go at 800m, with a strong tailwind.
Thanks for submitting, but so frustrating to watch. I was shouting at the tv! 😱
What category does LR race in?
This wasn’t mentioned but the positioning was poor all around by everyone on the final run in to the line in respect to the cross head wind. The guys contesting the win at the front should have moved to the far left of the tarmac to force gutter everyone behind them. 👌👍
Jeff - I so enjoy your videos. You have a great speaking voice, you are unassuming and humble, knowledgeable and skillful in cycling. Ok, so you aren't always up in the podium position but that makes for a great teaching videos (sorry!) I have spend a long time "trying" to learn what to do and what not to do in CRITS - but I can sit back and watch what the right thing is to do with your videos. Keep them videos coming! Also...in the off season, do more videos about gear, warm-up, practice, training, etc. ...and also, more about PA cycling too! OK Smoketown Airport Crit is cool but more PA stuff! (Especially in Allentown / Trexlertown (Velodrome) ride/racing! 👍 BTW Bobby Lea (multi-National Champ and 3x Olympian set KOM at Smoketown Airport Crit after riding some +40 miles to get there, raced, got STRAVA KOM, and a podium! Also, check out local PA cyclist Shane Kline at Lower Providence (PA) in 2018 video (he came in 2nd to Justin William at Nationals!) ...oh what skill!
Loving the collaborations!
I would love to see you guys continue to review racing footage and break down, good and bad things. I have been learning a lot!
Hey guys, nice video analysis! Im into improving position all the time on a race but in the very end i always cant fight the moment and i get stucked at the back. Im was going to say that if you can comment some footage of mine, even if i dont race as Elite or in USA. Just to get some personal tips. Let me know if youre interested!
I have some material of a Fixed Race where i end up losing wheel because of burning lungs too hard. Obviously its not on my channel but i can send it if you like.
So, am I the only one thinking that if you have a crosswind tailwind that you should be on the windward side to get pushed a little by the wind? Being on the sheltered side with a crosswind tailwind just means you don't benefit from the component of the wind that is behind you. The force of the wind on you is the cosine of its angle to you and therefore a 60-degree crosswind from behind would push you along with half the force of a true tailwind.
You're assuming the wind is going faster than the cyclist which is never the case.
@@NorCalCycling hmmm. OK, interesting. Thanks for the reply.
this was the most unsatisfying video ever
Love this vids, keep it up. FWIW not a huge fan of the rewinding lately. More times than not feels unnecessary.
I try to be as concise as possible, but often I have a lot to say with not much time, especially at the most critical parts of the race (last couple laps) I'm working on being even more concise, thanks for your input.
NorCal Cycling as a counterpoint, I enjoy the slowdown as it gives you time to explain why it's the right move with visuals available
@@rjbman93 my bad I should have been more explicit. I too enjoy the "slowdown" to point out what I should be looking for. In earlier vids, @norcal would pause the video, which I prefer. The recent 2-3 vids have done rewinds, which I could do without. Anyway, I'm splitting hairs, its all good stuff, and only mention it at all because @norcal asked for feedback in the past.
Hi, I love your videos. What kind of camera do you use? GoPro?
This isn't my footage, but yes, I use GoPro.
This looks like a group ride most of the time. Shoulda been any "easy" win if all that power had been used at the right times.
on a course like this I would be super tempted to just go TT mode on the tail wind side around through to the last corner and hope that noone else can keep up with the pace. This guy was coasting on the tailwind section going 27mph, if he just did a reasonable consistent power it could easily be 35mph
@@notreally2406 i know right?
the GoPro makes his front wheel look kinda out of true and its killing me!
the guy is afraid of approaching the other runners, it's probably someone who started cycling late ...
we love this stuff!
It’s all fun and games until I come in for a landing. . . 😀
This deeply hurts as I think about my races/group rides.
last corner he needed to be on the inside, so he is sprinting in the draft.
The man is friggin beast tho
Good video!!
👍🏽
Not in a Hill climb time trial!
Touching and yelling is behavior that states, "I can't handle this situation I've put myself in".
The person in front has no obligation to your assumed entitlement or your problems.
22 mph it’s the average speed with my gravel bike
Such terrible tactics. Just shows, There is racing technique and there is fitness. You need both.
The pink w/light blue forks Specialized is one of the ugliest colour schemes ever imagined. To top it, looks they closed their eyes and pointed at ‘The book of fuggly cycling kit colour combos’ for the mess they are wearing!
First?
What a rad surprise!
LR you better have cleared this fling w Benji 😂
@norcal - 162k subscribers
@lanterne - 192k subscribers
Both worthy of millions or possibly billions more