But even the Partridge sister claimed she was only married posthumously by proxy. These folks could never get their story straight which is why it’s so laughable.
I bought into the myth of Joseph's polygamy until I read the affidavits in the Expositor. The affidavits summarize the polygamy parts of 132 that Hyrum read out loud to church leaders. Since then I make sure to read all sides of the arguments. And I now believe the testimony of hundreds that testified of Joseph's polygamy. Hundreds read or heard D&C 132 prior to it being recopied and handed to Brigham Young in 1847. I increasingly think Joseph's polygamy lead to a loss of spiritual protection and his early death. I will be studying much more of the matter. From both sides.
Well, you should certainly listen to all the sides of an argument. But you have to think about them, too. When people use logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum (with phrases like “testimony of hundreds”), or affirming the consequent (If Hyrum read 132 there would be evidence; people said he read something similar to 132, so he must have done it), they either have not thought things out well or are attempting to hide something. Also, the Joseph-was-a polygamist side has no good answer to the problems of no children from alleged polygamous wives, no contemporaneous records, the altered and forged documents, it being too secret to talk about but there were hundreds of witnesses, Brigham and his friends fooling around with women before they claim Joseph taught them about polygamy, Joseph allegedly wondering how God justified polygamy while doing his Bible translation, which condemns polygamy, etc. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to believe that Joseph was a polygamist. I’m saying that when all the evidence is weighed, it’s not the most logical conclusion-nor is it the just one.
You still haven't told us why Joseph Smith had the polygamist Brigham Young preside over the church court of anti-polygamist William law on April 18, 1844.
@@FleeingBabylon-Now No, Rick, I'm back to providing accurate historical information to combat the false propaganda that brainwashes people like you into believing that Joseph Smith did not orginate polygamy. And I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Joseph Smith had the evil sinner polygamist murder plotter Brigham Young preside over the polygamy opponent William Law's excommunication trial on April 18, 1844.
"Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun." "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." If I can disprove a claim made very succinctly and easily by reading it in the Bible why would I put trust in your other unsupported words?
@@Veevslav1 That doesn't appear to be a commandment for polygamy. So you are not disproving anything many prophets decided on their here own to have more than one wife and each time the polygamist ran afoul of God. If polygamy was allowed wouldn't it make sense that Adam, who was starting human civilization to practice it? God commanded marriage is between one woman and one man. The bible doesn't contradict itself and it doesnt fit the narrative of the Mormon church.
@@randyjordan5521 Many of them also signed the Voice of Innocence so they are admitted liars. Liars make poor witnesses. It's about quality, not quantity.
@@PeterBrownscouts EVERY PERSON IN NAUVOO who knew anything about polygamy---whether they accepted it and practiced it, or whether they opposed it and left the church over it---said that they learned about it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. High-ranking, close insider associates of Joseph and Hyrum Smith such as Sidney Rigdon, John C. Bennett, William Marks, William Law, Austin Cowles, Leonard Soby, and Ebenezer Robinson, ALL said that Joseph Smith started polygamy.
@@randyjordan5521 I can think of two examples where you are wrong, and there's more . . . William Smith and Sarah Lawrence. You can't use Sydney because Sydney never claimed Joseph told him about it, he just believed what others said. William Marks has conflicting second hand witnesses.
@@PeterBrownscouts OMG You're utterly clueless. William Smith preached this in a sermon in Nauvoo on August 17, 1845: "if a sister gives me her hand upon the Spiritual Wife system, to share with me the fate & destinies of time and eternity, I will not be ashamed of her before the public. That [which] I do in the secret chamber I would do in the broad daylight. And now what of the spiritual wife doctrine, so often talked about. Suppose I preach you a little of it. Now don't get scared brethren, and leave the Congregation before I get through, it is such an awful doctrine I know and I am just the man to get into this business, and get out of it too, for I am not the author of God's works, nor am I to blame, for what he has revealed: So a great fuss is made about Spiritual Wives... "Suppose we say spiritual husbands, I would just as son say Spiritual Husbands, as Spiritual Wife, and Spiritual Wife, as Spiritual Husband; To the carnal all things are carnal, and to the spiritual all things are spiritual, to be carnally minded is Death, but to be spiritual minded is life everlasting. "45. Supposing I was to talk about Old Jacob. I read the Bible sometimes, because if the people saw I did not, they would say I am not religious. "46. Now as to Jacob and his Four Wives, you may call them spiritual wives, carnal wives, Devilish wives, or what you please the Bible says that he had four wives. But the principal under which he acted, is what I am at, and as I am a Yankee I have a right to guess, The truth is Jacob was a Prophet of God and the father of the twelve Patriarchs, and these 12, Patriarchs, were born of Four Women, that Jacob had as his wives. I don't know anything about it, only what the Bible says. You will recollect that the Twelve Patriarchs, were the fathers of Twelve Tribes of the house of Israel, and these were God's peculiar people, and they sprang from Jacob's four wives. Jesus Christ himself sprang from the tribe of Judah, and yet the household of Judah, sprang from Judah, who was one of the four women Jacob had to be his wife. Jesus Christ sprang from the tribe of Judah, and from David. David was a great Prophet (Query) Did Jesus Christ spring from illegitimate seed? I guess he did not. Were the 12 Tribes of the house of Israel bastards and not sons? I guess they were not. "47. Again if the Twelve Tribes, were God's peculiar people were they all legitimate, or lawful seed, and if they were all lawful seed, and and sprang from Four Women, how was it they could all be lawful seed? You may guess. "48. I have got almost through with my guessing upon this subject, and have not said anything either, but I guess, when all my guessings come to an end upon this subject, I shall guess Jacob was a friend of God, and did not go to Hell, and that Jesus Christ was not a bastard, and if you can make anything else of it you have a right to do it."
Great video👌⚡💯 "As thin as the air on Mount Everest"🤣🤣🤣 "Not a real historian, don't try this at home"👌🤣 Brian Hales and Mormon stories would get along really well. They both believe the exact same thing. They should just join channels together dedicated to smearing Joseph's name since they tell the same lies. I'll bet Brian believes Santa clause is polygamist too since the reality of him is the same as Joseph's other wives😅
Totally, that’s what I’ve been trying to tell people. At this point, they use all of the same sources. The church just presents them as faith promoting and the Mormon stories crowd does the opposite.
Using polygamy in faith promoting ways is so bad because it's literally calling evil, good. At least those who are opposed to polygamy (even if they believe Joseph practiced it) call it out for what it is!
@@Commenter2121Amen to that!! I don't believe Brian will ever open a single page of Joseph Smith papers...he's too addicted to what he thinks he'll get in the next life. I mean the reason truth has been revealed on this matter is because new evidence has proven Joseph innocent and Brigham a conman. Brian wouldn't believe Joseph if he told him to his face. Not even God could convince him. He's just as vile and angry as the anti Mormons. The new papers recently purchased with the Kirkland temple is more proof that Joseph taught the marriage is between one man and one woman. Emma wouldn't let Brigham have those papers so thankfully they've been preserved. At least until our historians get their hands on them
@Commenter2121 Seriously too. If you put anti Mormon and traditional believing Mormon in the same room, no one would know the difference. Brian will never open the Joseph Smith papers. His ego is the size of the moon so he'll just keep trying to convince everyone else he's right and no one dare argue. He would have fit in with Brigham Young quite well
@@StompMom5 Yep, Brian and others will have to answer for the way they are bearing false witness and leading people astray. I’ve read his material multiple times and I’ve watched him on every podcast I can find. It’s infuriating the way he promotes his own work and speaks about others that have a different opinion than him. The liberties he takes with so many of the sources is very sloppy scholarship.
I just checked Brian Hales website on this and sure enough, there is this one pathetic source listed as evidence of their plural marriage. I hope nobody claims second hand 60 years after I die that I had an additional wife, my future posterity would be so confused :)
Happened to some of my dad's ancestors so he had some serious cleaning up to do. So many were listed as having multiple spouses. Wife with multiple husbands and husband with multiple wives😅. They weren't from Brigham's church either as my dad didn't grow up in the church. Makes for good comedy
It took the so-called church 180 years to finally admit he actually was a polygamist AND polyandrist. The Gospel Topics Essay admits as such. He married children as young as age 14. Is the church currently lying?
@sdfotodude I can’t say whether the church writ large is deliberately lying or not. At the very least, they’re relying on very poor and biased sources to come to exceedingly questionable conclusions.
Then why did his followers start living it openly and have children after Joseph died? For two years. Before moving to Utah. Why weren't THEY afraid? Hypothesis: the fear of living polygamy openly lessened after the end of June 1844. There would be no more April speeches and Hiram Brown excommunications.
BFJ is my ggg grandfather... I cried 3 times just this week alone for my foremothers who had to live this awful life of polygamy. I sure hope these polygamist men repent! God's daughters in Utah were broken by these pretend prophets!
Joseph said he never taught or practiced anything in secret. I don't believe he lied about that. Those stories were made up by the men who did practice it.
@1961Tuber It’s illogical to say that if someone denies committing a crime, it must be because they’re guilty. There has to be evidence-not just accusations.
Ugh. Benjamin Johnson is a key witness in Eliza Partridge’s “marriage” to Joseph too, along with his sister Almera. He just makes stuff up!
Ya, I haven't looked into him directly, but others I know who have studied him says he's pretty sketchy ...
Isn’t it funny how most of the evidence rests on a small, closely connected cabal of people who are extremely biased in favor of polygamy?
@IBelieveJoseph And they call us weird. We want facts while they made Hales their prophet😝
@@IBelieveJoseph No evidence, or most of the evidence
But even the Partridge sister claimed she was only married posthumously by proxy. These folks could never get their story straight which is why it’s so laughable.
I bought into the myth of Joseph's polygamy until I read the affidavits in the Expositor.
The affidavits summarize the polygamy parts of 132 that Hyrum read out loud to church leaders.
Since then I make sure to read all sides of the arguments.
And I now believe the testimony of hundreds that testified of Joseph's polygamy.
Hundreds read or heard D&C 132 prior to it being recopied and handed to Brigham Young in 1847.
I increasingly think Joseph's polygamy lead to a loss of spiritual protection and his early death.
I will be studying much more of the matter. From both sides.
Well, you should certainly listen to all the sides of an argument. But you have to think about them, too. When people use logical fallacies like argumentum ad populum (with phrases like “testimony of hundreds”), or affirming the consequent (If Hyrum read 132 there would be evidence; people said he read something similar to 132, so he must have done it), they either have not thought things out well or are attempting to hide something.
Also, the Joseph-was-a polygamist side has no good answer to the problems of no children from alleged polygamous wives, no contemporaneous records, the altered and forged documents, it being too secret to talk about but there were hundreds of witnesses, Brigham and his friends fooling around with women before they claim Joseph taught them about polygamy, Joseph allegedly wondering how God justified polygamy while doing his Bible translation, which condemns polygamy, etc.
I’m not saying that it’s impossible to believe that Joseph was a polygamist. I’m saying that when all the evidence is weighed, it’s not the most logical conclusion-nor is it the just one.
Can you do an episode on Adam Ondi Ahman? I’m curious to n is what the earliest records said about this.
@Giguere2011 Thank you for the idea! I have added it to my list.
Amazing. “Tacitly.” Thank you for the video.
You are welcome!
Excellent!!!
Glad you liked it!
Who are they kidding right? I did not know Joseph was blind. I believe Joseph too.
All those wives he didn't know he had😅
Gotta laugh with you on that!
You still haven't told us why Joseph Smith had the polygamist Brigham Young preside over the church court of anti-polygamist William law on April 18, 1844.
@@randyjordan5521 Back to trolling hey
@@FleeingBabylon-Now No, Rick, I'm back to providing accurate historical information to combat the false propaganda that brainwashes people like you into believing that Joseph Smith did not orginate polygamy.
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Joseph Smith had the evil sinner polygamist murder plotter Brigham Young preside over the polygamy opponent William Law's excommunication trial on April 18, 1844.
Bonus truth polygamy was never allowed in the Old or New testament.
"Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."
If I can disprove a claim made very succinctly and easily by reading it in the Bible why would I put trust in your other unsupported words?
@@Veevslav1 That doesn't appear to be a commandment for polygamy. So you are not disproving anything many prophets decided on their here own to have more than one wife and each time the polygamist ran afoul of God. If polygamy was allowed wouldn't it make sense that Adam, who was starting human civilization to practice it? God commanded marriage is between one woman and one man. The bible doesn't contradict itself and it doesnt fit the narrative of the Mormon church.
Benjamin Johnson is a ridiculous witness. He's got his name on so much evidence.
More than 100 church members who lived in Nauvoo when polygamy was instituted said that Joseph Smith started it. Not Brigham Young or anyone else.
@@randyjordan5521 Many of them also signed the Voice of Innocence so they are admitted liars. Liars make poor witnesses. It's about quality, not quantity.
@@PeterBrownscouts EVERY PERSON IN NAUVOO who knew anything about polygamy---whether they accepted it and practiced it, or whether they opposed it and left the church over it---said that they learned about it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith.
High-ranking, close insider associates of Joseph and Hyrum Smith such as Sidney Rigdon, John C. Bennett, William Marks, William Law, Austin Cowles, Leonard Soby, and Ebenezer Robinson, ALL said that Joseph Smith started polygamy.
@@randyjordan5521 I can think of two examples where you are wrong, and there's more . . . William Smith and Sarah Lawrence.
You can't use Sydney because Sydney never claimed Joseph told him about it, he just believed what others said. William Marks has conflicting second hand witnesses.
@@PeterBrownscouts OMG You're utterly clueless. William Smith preached this in a sermon in Nauvoo on August 17, 1845:
"if a sister gives me her hand upon
the Spiritual Wife system, to share with me the fate &
destinies of time and eternity, I will not be ashamed of
her before the public. That [which] I do in the secret chamber
I would do in the broad daylight. And now what of the spiritual
wife doctrine, so often talked about. Suppose I preach
you a little of it. Now don't get scared brethren, and leave
the Congregation before I get through, it is such an awful
doctrine I know and I am just the man to get into this business,
and get out of it too, for I am not the author of God's
works, nor am I to blame, for what he has revealed: So a great
fuss is made about Spiritual Wives...
"Suppose we say spiritual husbands,
I would just as son say Spiritual Husbands, as Spiritual
Wife, and Spiritual Wife, as Spiritual Husband;
To the carnal all things are carnal, and to the spiritual all
things are spiritual, to be carnally minded is Death,
but to be spiritual minded is life everlasting.
"45. Supposing I was to talk about Old Jacob. I read the Bible
sometimes, because if the people saw I did not, they would say I am not religious.
"46. Now as to Jacob and his Four Wives, you may call them spiritual
wives, carnal wives, Devilish wives, or what you please
the Bible says that he had four wives. But the principal
under which he acted, is what I am at, and as I am a Yankee
I have a right to guess, The truth is Jacob was a Prophet of
God and the father of the twelve Patriarchs, and these 12,
Patriarchs, were born of Four Women, that Jacob had as his
wives. I don't know anything about it, only what the Bible
says. You will recollect that the Twelve Patriarchs, were the
fathers of Twelve Tribes of the house of Israel, and these were
God's peculiar people, and they sprang from Jacob's four wives.
Jesus Christ himself sprang from the tribe of Judah, and yet
the household of Judah, sprang from Judah, who was one of
the four women Jacob had to be his wife. Jesus Christ sprang
from the tribe of Judah, and from David. David was a great
Prophet (Query) Did Jesus Christ spring from illegitimate seed?
I guess he did not. Were the 12 Tribes of the house of Israel
bastards and not sons? I guess they were not.
"47. Again if the Twelve Tribes, were God's peculiar people were they all
legitimate, or lawful seed, and if they were all lawful seed, and
and sprang from Four Women, how was it they could all be lawful seed? You may
guess.
"48. I have got almost through with my guessing upon this subject, and have not
said anything either, but I guess, when all my guessings come to an end
upon this subject, I shall guess Jacob was a friend of God, and did
not go to Hell, and that Jesus Christ was not a bastard, and if
you can make anything else of it you have a right to do it."
Great video👌⚡💯
"As thin as the air on Mount Everest"🤣🤣🤣
"Not a real historian, don't try this at home"👌🤣
Brian Hales and Mormon stories would get along really well. They both believe the exact same thing. They should just join channels together dedicated to smearing Joseph's name since they tell the same lies.
I'll bet Brian believes Santa clause is polygamist too since the reality of him is the same as Joseph's other wives😅
Totally, that’s what I’ve been trying to tell people. At this point, they use all of the same sources. The church just presents them as faith promoting and the Mormon stories crowd does the opposite.
Using polygamy in faith promoting ways is so bad because it's literally calling evil, good. At least those who are opposed to polygamy (even if they believe Joseph practiced it) call it out for what it is!
@@Commenter2121Amen to that!! I don't believe Brian will ever open a single page of Joseph Smith papers...he's too addicted to what he thinks he'll get in the next life. I mean the reason truth has been revealed on this matter is because new evidence has proven Joseph innocent and Brigham a conman. Brian wouldn't believe Joseph if he told him to his face. Not even God could convince him. He's just as vile and angry as the anti Mormons.
The new papers recently purchased with the Kirkland temple is more proof that Joseph taught the marriage is between one man and one woman. Emma wouldn't let Brigham have those papers so thankfully they've been preserved. At least until our historians get their hands on them
@Commenter2121 Seriously too. If you put anti Mormon and traditional believing Mormon in the same room, no one would know the difference. Brian will never open the Joseph Smith papers. His ego is the size of the moon so he'll just keep trying to convince everyone else he's right and no one dare argue. He would have fit in with Brigham Young quite well
@@StompMom5 Yep, Brian and others will have to answer for the way they are bearing false witness and leading people astray. I’ve read his material multiple times and I’ve watched him on every podcast I can find. It’s infuriating the way he promotes his own work and speaks about others that have a different opinion than him. The liberties he takes with so many of the sources is very sloppy scholarship.
I believe Joseph too!
I just checked Brian Hales website on this and sure enough, there is this one pathetic source listed as evidence of their plural marriage. I hope nobody claims second hand 60 years after I die that I had an additional wife, my future posterity would be so confused :)
Happened to some of my dad's ancestors so he had some serious cleaning up to do. So many were listed as having multiple spouses. Wife with multiple husbands and husband with multiple wives😅. They weren't from Brigham's church either as my dad didn't grow up in the church. Makes for good comedy
It’s pretty amazing what people can get away with if nobody asks any questions.
It took the so-called church 180 years to finally admit he actually was a polygamist AND polyandrist. The Gospel Topics Essay admits as such. He married children as young as age 14. Is the church currently lying?
@sdfotodude I can’t say whether the church writ large is deliberately lying or not. At the very least, they’re relying on very poor and biased sources to come to exceedingly questionable conclusions.
@@IBelieveJoseph I thought they were Prophets?
So true man! I can’t find any solid evidence that Joseph even existed! But as you think for yourself you’ll figure that out.
How did we get the Book of Mormon, bro?
@@senecaaurelius1811 forgery
@@senecaaurelius1811forgery
@@senecaaurelius1811forgery
Wasn't polygamy illegal? maybe that is why J. Smith never admitted to it? Maybe he was afraid of being arrested?
Polygamy was illegal. Maybe Smith didn’t admit to polygamy because he didn’t do it.
Then why did his followers start living it openly and have children after Joseph died? For two years. Before moving to Utah. Why weren't THEY afraid? Hypothesis: the fear of living polygamy openly lessened after the end of June 1844. There would be no more April speeches and Hiram Brown excommunications.
BFJ is my ggg grandfather... I cried 3 times just this week alone for my foremothers who had to live this awful life of polygamy. I sure hope these polygamist men repent! God's daughters in Utah were broken by these pretend prophets!
Joseph said he never taught or practiced anything in secret. I don't believe he lied about that. Those stories were made up by the men who did practice it.
@1961Tuber It’s illogical to say that if someone denies committing a crime, it must be because they’re guilty. There has to be evidence-not just accusations.