Hold on. No. The "no refund" policy does not cover someone in the event of outright fraud and intent to deceive which this looks IMO to have been. That is almost certainly why the AG is involved. You cant just take peoples money and say, "sorry, you agreed to be ripped off." Capulet made statements and claims and agreed to sell a product. They cant just decide not to do it or to skeeze out and then say, sucks to be you. They sold specific services then did not provide those services. Talk to a lawyer and they will tell you fraud is not covered by some statement slipped into a FAQ.
Yeah, sounds like he would be covered in the case of weather, a handful of bands dropping off, or a reasonable venue change (reasonable meaning: within a reasonable distance and fairly comparable capacity). In the case of a massive bait and switch like this, his little disclaimer like this is not good enough.
to my knowledge you cant have a waiver like that to waive away gross negligence like what happened to this festival, so its up to the AG to prove negligence. not paying staff, downsizing venue to 1/10th the capacity (likely the bait and switch regarding how many days and how many bands) all would contribute to proving said negligence.
meanwhile I was having my best live at Rockharz in germany, watching Orden Ogan live. Dixie toilets were cleaned hourly, water was free, showers were in abundance, we had actual flush toilets by the campground, there were security people on golf carts and wuads driving around warning people of every weather change. they even had safe words and gestures you could make to show distress to security and have them take you to safety
@@TankTheTechBut even compared to other festivals like Rock am Ring and Wacken, this one was just run so damn smoothly by the organizers. I've never felt more at ease at a festival despite heavy wind and rainstorms on saturday 😅
I've noticed that both Blue Ridge and Capulet were basically run by one guy alone. This is on the verge of unthinkable in Europe, there's almost always some form of conglomerate, a label, a company or even a magazine behind the events, even the smaller ones.
Yep Metaldays has met the same fate. Couple years of covid, a flooded out venue and he's 1.1m in the hole, claiming bankruptcy and some people can't get refunds from multiple years of cancelations or impacts (2020 & 2023).
Even in the USA, it’s extremely rare. Usually you have a major radio station or its owner (such as Audacy or iHeartRadio) or concert company (like Live Nation) behind a festival.
Even Wacken are not just the 2 founder alone, they had all the years support from the farmers, village and a lot more... . You might do this if you have a TON of xp and know also a LOT of ppl that can lend a hand but a 25y old alone ? LoL nope what xp?
I am a crew member for a band that was supposed to be at capulet fest. Thankfully, we didn’t play. Our TM was telling us this was going to be an absolute sh*tshow for a while leading up to it until the plug was pulled from under us.
@@scarfothe promoter is just lying to himself. It was a shitshow because he wouldn’t or couldn’t pay anyone and had no clue what he was doing. He has no one to blame but himself
These festivals like Wacken, Hellfest, Copenhell, Graspop, Masters of Rock, etc., show how well Europe organizes Rock/Metal festivals. It's a shame we can't do the same here.
Dwp and some of the indep guys (rock fest in wi as example, or rok in ok before dwp bought this year) know how to do it. It's the damn amateurs that are the problem.
We did but unfortunately those festivals don't exist anymore and kinda went to shit right before they went away. Now we're stuck with these shit shows.
I agree with most of the comments here.. the DWP are well run based on other fans experience there .. my two cents we need more diversity in the bands that play those festivals in N America… there’s tons of great rock and metal in Europe and other parts of the world… they seldom get to play the states.. but many of our greatest bands go overseas for the summer festivals… make it work logistically and ultimately for the fans!!! 🤘🤘
Never forget Louisville Death Fest. Promoter bailed mid-fest, then some attendees stepped up and ran the last day while another attendee drove to the promoter's house and made him pay the venue. Shitty show saved as much as possible by the community
The no refund policy doesn't cover fraud. Selling tickets when venue had been downgraded, and linup had significantly changed would seem to qualify as fraud.
I am the TD for a 1200 cap venue, I cannot even fathom the logistics of having bands of that level in a venue that size. Parking for production vehicles, loading docks to handle multiple artists loading in and out, space for dead cases even. Props to the venue crew for even trying to pull it off.
Just purely out of curiosity: Once you and the EC-Boys are done with the summer festival season, i'd like to see a "Best Festival" Video from you. Having some examples and explanations on how a good festival should be done, would be really nice. I only had positive experiences with EU-Festivals, so i guess there should be some good examples from this year's tour. it's a real bummer to see shit like BRR/Capulet happen, i'd probably be fuming if i experienced something like that, bc i'm usually excited a year in advance
As a vocalist myself having performed at Blue Ridge, I think it takes the bait my experience at blue ridge was horrible the dressing room I was in had no ac at all was quite unorganized and had poor sanitation, as for the festival itself, the lines to get to shows were horrible, it was VERY hot and there was little water available. The piles of trash were absolutely disgusting, and no one did anything about it, when the storms hit, trying people off the festival grounds, to safety was a nightmare, and very unorganized. Overall it was really bad and I will never do it again.
Just because the website says "non-refundable" they still have a legal obligation to deliver what was advertised to consumers. Generic disclaimers mean nothing in bait-and-switch situations.
I went to the first day of capulet. I wasn’t ripped off like most people. I had to drive just as far as would have if the venue hadn’t changed. I still got to see the bands I wanted to see. If I had known it was going to be held at the Webster I wouldn’t have bought a ticket. It’s one of the worst venues in New England. The sound/acoustics are the worst. One of the rougher parts of the city. Mostly just street parking nearby. The stage set up is really difficult for bands to set up and break down, single staircase without any guide rails.
I was at Houston Open Air, it got cancelled day of, due to "inclement weather" under clear skies. A7x and a couple other headliners managed to do a show later that day by getting a local venue to open up on a night it was typically closed and honored all festival tickets. I didn't get to go in, because I was planning to buy my festival tickets at the entry and couldn't get one. Luckily, Starset also got a different local venue to let them play as well, and that show was completely free, for everyone. This was back when there was only 4 of them, and they still had the black jumpsuits instead of the white ones. Came and hung out with everyone after the show in the bar, it was great.
Here's the thing, legally - contracts go both ways. They can say the tickets are non-refundable and whoever bought them agrees to that policy, but if THEY don't fulfill their end of the contract (IE putting on the show the buyer paid for, etc), the contract is null and void. Unfortunately, the only recourse is a lawsuit. People aren't getting their money back likely without a class-action lawsuit and those require enough people to want to fight it. In my experience, most people just want to move on.
Exactly. Had to scroll way too far for this comment... Contracts can be legally deemed void if there is the practice of bad faith involved. Bad faith is implied in the fact the organizer "didn't pay the rent", which directly led to the decline of the events that happened. If say a tornado happened and they had to change venues or what not... well, that's not their fault. Also, the amount of bands dropping before the concert is also key indicators that something was going on and isn't the product/show that people paid for. So right there, you can't promise someone one thing, say no refunds, then give them only half of it... To me it sounds like the company, or really that one guy with probably a few people working with him - Was trying to pull this off with $0 in the bank account, and just thought they could stall paying everyone, and pay them once they got their money from the ticket sales... (If they actually planned to pay anyone at all). Unfortunately for them and any many people, the bands were probably dropping off beforehand due to deposits not being made, and the venues just straight up kicked them out when they wern't paid.
@@bmir89 you're exactly right. That's why Blue Ridge is still claiming the show was cancelled due to weather, because weather is an act of God. They're not at fault and don't owe anything other than unpaid labor.
@@bmir89 exactly right. "Acts of God" (that is actually the legal term) exempt the festival organizers from liability if the show fails. That's why Blue Ridge is still claiming they cancelled the festival due to weather. I think they're full of shit but good luck proving that in court. Capulet doesn't have that to fall back on
@@PalmelaHanderson In Germany it is "higher force". If your train didnt go because of a very bad snowstorm, that is higher force. They still have to get you to where you wanted to go though afterwards without paying more. But you cant easily sure for additional stuff. In this case, its easy. One person wouldve to go to court and it would be a general ruling. And an easy one, if it goes to trial. In the case of Blue Ridge, they canceled because of bad weather, officially, but couldve continued after the storm the next day. That would be held against them. You couldnt sue for that one day though. Otherwise the "non-refundable" part would be illegal in most European countries. Even if you agree to the terms, terms that are not to be anticipated by the purchaser, are void. And scaling down is not something you have to anticipate. It just would be void in that case.
I think it's pretty wild that a general non refund policy in the US is even possible. I would have guessed it works like everywhere else. If you sell a service but don't provide the service, people can get refunds.
A former acquaintance of mine tried something similar on a way smaller scale. He booked a somewhat large venue and a mid size German act. Filled the bill with his friends and mismanaged so hard, that the headlining band left without playing a single note. This stunt possibly caused the headlining acts label to blacklist our entire state for booking any of their clients.
One of the things that I'm curious about that I don't think you covered in here: If they were selling tickets for a 13000 capacity venue, and then stepped down to a 1300 capacity venue, if more than 1300 people actually showed up, what happened? They just got turned away?
Tbh us Capulet attendees assumed less than 1300 weekend tickets were sold, hence why they could pull off this change. No idea how Sunday would have worked however with a 250 cap room only
@@maneyac16 If they hadn't sold even to even fill a 1300 capacity venue, it might also explain why they weren't paying venues. Maybe they legit didn't have any money.
@@TankTheTech I know you mentioned they ran the two previous years successfully, so I'm also really curious how the number of bands/size of venue compared to the previous years. Maybe it was smaller and they tried to grow too big too fast?
The non refundable tickets clause would not fly in the EU. If a show/festival is cancelled or postponed they are legally obliged to give refunds, even if there's a no refunds clause.
There was also a fesitval last weekend in Austria, the Rolling Loud, that also had catastrophic organization. Problems with public transport, staff not having a clue about anything and the lack of watersupplies. The organizer thou, said that everything went smothly (it did not)
As one of the barricade guys catching crowd surfers working the stage Electric Callboy played At Blue Ridge... can confirm. The behind the scenes was a nightmare.
Look into Metaldays in Slovenia here in Europe. Once a wonderful festival that just went to hell after Covid. Stories of bands not getting paid, no transfer back to the airport after their gig, etc. People where promised refunds for the 2020 edition and it has basically become a meme for them asking when the refunds will occur. They have also, allegedly, messed up the relations with the town where it was held so badly that it has created problems for other festivals held in that town. The festival had the unfortune to also end up in a massive storm last year so the campground was flooded. The festival went out with a statement yesterday that they will never hold another edition, people had been expecting that for a while though.
It's pretty simple. It isn't easy to throw a festival. All these people who just think, I'll hire a bunch of bands and it will be great, need to go away. The large national guys, and the good independent ones, know that it's all about operations and logistics. The band list doesn't matter if people can't get in. The band list doesn't matter if you don't have facilities that are up to par. The band list doesn't matter if people don't have water. Etc. These people who do this, need face a consequence. Sadly, in this country, it's easy to skirt financial obligations. Something does need to change regarding insurance/tickets/policies regarding cancellations. The intent of the act of god is things out of their control. Not improperly running an event. That's why the AG needs to be looking into this. It's fraud. Not a hail and lightning storm.
The guys from Skillet seem like the type of people who would go and play for the people who showed up after nothing but issues from the promoter, they probably knew the shutdown was coming and worked something out to play a set and then bounce. Probably what i wouldve done “well were here and people came to see us and have already been screwed, lets play for em” wouldnt surprise me
Played New England metal fest in 2008. The building was at last minute after all staging and bands where still showing up condemed by the local code people saying the building was not fit for the purpose. Apperently no one did a prior inspection. Whole night was a cluster. Ended up playing in parking lot to like 700-800 ppl. And half the bands dropped off. The promoter was also almost killed. There were bands like mustache etc flying in from Europe not even knowing the situation. Goes to show one small fuk up can cause a meltdown. We ended up playing as did divine heresy but night was bad vibes. I also had my trigger module stolen that night. Never forget it.
Hopefully there is some sort of help for the folks who paid for this mess, but I agree with you that Blue Ridge was a lot worse. The sanitation related stuff, lack of food and water and just general issues with the festival grounds at BR just makes it worse. The only "festival" I've been to was a local one at a smallish venue but it was all indoor and in the winter. Overall was a great time, would go again.
As a Capulet Fest “attendee” I have to agree. It’s really a situation of choosing whether you prefer to be screwed with 24 hours notice (Capulet) or screwed when you’re already at the festival grounds/campsite. Both situations are completely inexcusable & avoidable with a decent promoter
Meanwhile when rain made the parking fields for Graspop Metal Meeting unusable this year they let us know 'hey we're sorry, parking is closed, you're getting your parking ticket refunded automatically' When rain affected part of the camping grounds there were messages all over the festival telling you where to go and that you would get help if you were affected. I don't know what help they provided as I got lucky, but it makes me feel like they have their shit set up right, at least. They really did their best. Little things can do a lot to make or break confidence in a festival/event
We disputed the charge with our bank and got our tickets back that way. We had weekend tickets and there was no communication from the festival directly to the festival goers. Some people were still unaware that the festival was not happening at Thompson speedway because they did nothing but post on their social media. No emails were sent out early enough to address the situation professionally.
Blue Ridge 2023 attendee here - definitely go the chargeback route with your bank asap and claim services were not rendered. Gather as much evidence as you can (social media screenshots, news articles, even this video) and send it in an email (I had to ask my bank for the right email over the phone but it was better than explaining the situation to a bunch of different customer service reps). Yes the festival happened and their refund policy is tight but the festival did not happen to the extent that was promised (3 days with 50+ bands and even more missed services if you paid for VIP/camping). Despite ~40% of Blue Ridge technically happening last year I was able to get a full refund.
they did NOT "cover themselves" by making you click the agree button. if they fail to deliver the product you paid for, those terms don't save them, THEY broke the contract (which is in effect what buying a ticket is). you can't just write in a clause saying you're not responsible for not supplying the offered product that people purchased. customers were buying a ticket (a CONTRACT), to see aforementioned bands, on specific days, at a specific location, any change to that in bad faith will render the non-refundable portion null and void.
Man, the fact that crappy organizers are still getting away with this crap is amazing. people have learned nothing from Woodstock '99, Fyre and BRRF. Having survived the utter shitshow(literally) of Woodstock '99, it still boggles my mind.
Estevan lied about ticket sales and the finances to the people who booked/coordinated the show. I have 100% proof that the only reason he kept this going was to avoid refunding tickets. He (Estevan) still owes over 10k to the people who planned this event and booked most of the talent.
Survived blue ridge and purchased tickets for capulet! I understand the Change of venue ! I would have drove 5 extra hours if my camping was also honored !! I got an email saying I’d be offered that hotel an hour away. I would have to use my credit card at check it but they would cover the bill. Also the parking would be a maybe when I arrived . Sounded sketchy !! So I didn’t go!
Parking at the Webster is very small . I haven’t been there for a while but probably been there a few dozen times . Many many people had there cars broken into
They didn’t honor the hotel thing, at all. A vendor went to the hotel to get his room and was told nothing was setup for him, so he has to post up in a Walmart parking lot for one night then he packed up and left the second day.
Also, don't buy the extra "insurance". I've done it 2x for shows in other states and still lost my money. Between ticket costs, scalpers, and everything else, it has become way more stressful than standing in line at the grocery store or music store to buy a paper ticket.
I suspect that ticket sales were not what they accounted tor. Especially the 750 weekend VIP Pass. With paying deposits to the bands, venue and production company they ran out of money. I read somewhere else the production company was owed 110k, and the track was not fully paid. I also kind wonder if there wasnt any permits to hold the festival at the track.
Moondance Jam in MN said HOLD MY BEER. It was supposed to be Kansas, Parts of Journey, Creed, Blue Oyster Cult, Foghat and others on July 18-20th but on July 2nd citing "present economic climate" they changed the entire lineup to local/regional acts and initially said "refunds will not be offered." Instead they could go to the original show OR the Deuces Wild Dueling Pianos tickets (held on Aug. 9) or Moondance Harvest Moon Festival (Sept. 21). Obviously there was outrage and 8 days later they finally caved offering refunds, and noted "We just did not meet the necessary financial thresholds to produce a festival with national touring attractions". 30+ year festival still somehow financially mismanaging its way into cancellation weeks before the show. Insanity.
I’m noticing this same trend of scam festivals but for North American K-Pop shows. In 2022, there was KAMP Festival, that had a lot of very well known groups on the line up. It was nearly sold out with nonrefundable tickets but the week of the festival, a bunch of groups had to drop out. It turned out that the company hosting the festival wouldn’t pay to sponsor all their visas so that they could legally work here. They tried this again in 2023 in Mexico. KCON in LA used to be reputable but have had a significant decline- they even tried posting “trendy” videos that were just sexually harassing artists. I’m not sure why people are hosting shows for niche music (but in high demand such metal & K-Pop) to just exploit fans and use them as a cash cow but I noticed this occurring more after COVID when the concert industry began trying to recoup from a massive financial loss.
I played the first rendition of the fest while playing with ISMFOF. We Co-Headlined that night and the vibes this dude gave were something else... Tried to warn as many as I could to avoid this, but I feel for everyone who made plans.. btw thier money comes from a church organization lol
It wasn't 'Unforeseen Circumstances" Estevan had spent all the money prior to obtaining insurance for Thompson Speedway for the event and didn't have enough money for production who walked off due to not having their money.
At this point I feel like bands should create their own independent venue and just hold one massive event every year. Cut out all the shady organizers and just have it what it's meant to be - the bands and the fans. I admit I don't know much about the business side of things, but it's an idea I've thought about for awhile.
Gives me Pandemonium Fest vibes that happened earlier this year. Im glad i didnt buy tix as it was an absolute cluster fuck. And I say that as an audio tech, ive done and been to a lot of festivals.
As the AG pointed out, that boilerplate legal language doesn't actually protect promoters. They can put that there and lean on it, but they'll lose in court. A contract is two directional. They promised to provide certain things in exchange for a certain price. If those things are not provided, every aspect of the contract is void, including "no refund" clauses.
I wonder if sponsorships might be part of the problem. Usually ticket sales are not the biggest earner for events like this. Usually it's sponsors and I don't think people know that so it might be that these inexperienced festival runners are setting prices that they think will cover their costs but then they're not doing the work to go grab sponsors for their events that will actually subsidize ticket, performer, and venue costs Also I agree with your assessment. A festival where the biggest issue is communication is still not as bad as the festival where injury and hospitalization due to how everything is being run as the biggest issue.
As someone who's only a passive consumer of news regarding poorly run events, it surprises me just how many instances there seem to be of event organizers refusing to pay venues properly before the event, resulting in the event getting moved or cancelled the day of. Like, I do understand that much of an event's revenue comes from ticket sales as well as on-ground merchandise and amenities like food or water, but its wild to me that so many venues/locations are willing to wait that long for payment, or at least partial payment. Like it really seems like the raceway really gave the organizers until the day before the event to pay, and that's just so bizarre to me. Why give such a broad window of payment time? All it does is increase the risk of an immense failure and complete loss of money for every possible attendee. It's not just disastrous events, too; it seems like it's just a core practice amongst any moneymaking venture to not tell anybody that shit has fallen through until the last possible second, or even later. People are lucky if they get laid off of their job with even a two week notice, and it seems like tons of fans willing to attend events are lucky if they get any sort upfront communication until after the event is basically over.
18:22 , Their attorney general of the state has already made a statement saying that he is coming for them and he doesn’t care about the no refund policy
Another great video from Tank! This makes me think of a metal festival I went to years ago here in Upstate New York held at the Oswego Motor Speedway. 5FDP and Killswitch Engage were the headliners on the main stage. The first mistake made was the promotors completely over sold the festival tickets. Then half-way through the day about half the bands still scheduled to play are no longer playing because the dumb ass crew they hired brought in an unsafe headlining stage for not only the bands to play on but it was also unsafe for the fans to be there around it. They literally had to truck-in a completely new stage and set it all up for the final bands. It ended with Trivium, Killswitch Engage and 5FDP on the main stage. I walked around the crowd during Killswitch and found Frankie Palmeri the singer in Emmure watching the set. I stopped, gave him and fist bump with a hug and said I was sorry his band never got to play the festival that day. He was very nice. In the end I am EXTREMELY glad they decided to ship in a new stage. It could have been a massive catastrophe with lots of lives lost that day due to poor management at a metal festival.
Yeah the AG said that refund policy ain't going to hold up. Minimal differences between ticket purchase and event date can be covered by non refund policies, you can't promise one thing and then completely change it up the way this guy did.
And this is why, despite some of its shortcomings, I will still go to Rock Fest in Cadott. Sure, security has been overbearing about the "No Moshing" rule, but as far as everything else is concerned? At least they have their shit together, and have been making efforts to improve the festival and camp grounds year after year, showing that they're investing the money back into the fan experience. It's not always a hit, but at least it's not a total miss. You pay for what you want to experience. You want the Rockstar treatment? You're gonna pay for it. You just want to get in and have fun? Get your tix early and it's probably the cheapest in the nation. Sometimes I have my doubts, but damn does shit like this make me grateful for what we DO have. Still think you should come take a look! They've also just announced a new sister EDM festival launching next year, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it!
In the UK there are laws that prevent this sort of thing as certain obligations on the part of the provider cannot be “contracted out” they must be given (or a suitable alternative) or else the provider will have broken the law. (See unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations) 😊
With the AG getting involved there’s a good chance of trying to make them pay-however there’s also a good chance the promoter will declare bankruptcy. Or will disappear.
Hey tank I just started working in my local stage hands union, I’m hoping to become an audio engineer one day and your videos have been a big inspiration on my journey!
Can't be sure about how this stuff works in the US but here in Europe you can write anything you'd like in your terms of conditions, but you're still bound by law. That says pretty much you have a right to undo a purchase if the seller fails to deliver what they said they would.
I would guess that since...some band played one song, they're covered for the non-refund policy as "a show" happened. If it was entirely cancelled, it could be considered not meeting the agreement, but I am not a lawyer.
This shit was wild. He completely ghosted bands, dropped them from the fest. They found out when they weren't on the flyer. It was completely unacceptable how this was handled. The fans are the ones that suffered the most. We got a day off at the beach and fans lost hundreds of dollars and time off work they can't get back. Such a bummer this happened.
Fests turned into scams to me in 98 when I got there & realized I only got to see 1/2 the bands I wanted to see because they had 2 bands playing at once.
13,000 is the capacity of the Speedway, Capulet Fest wasn't going to be allowed to exceed 5,000 according to their contract. That was best case scenario that clearly didn't work out.
225 dollar for 3 days is interesting to me. im paying 180€ for 4 days of bands and an additional day of partying on the camping ground with my camp at summerbreeze
It's wild to me that under US law you can just include a small caveat somewhere in the T&C that prevents refunds. Consumer protection really needs a boost in America.
So, the band LiveKill were on the small stage and that room was double booked. They, unfortunately, had their set cut after one song because the room needed to be cleared out and setup for the other event scheduled to be in there, but the main room was still being used for the rest of the bands.
This is why I love EU, the consumer protection is on the level that makes US really look like some some Crayon eating corporate hellhole. I can pretty much guarantee that in anywhere EU you put that kind of garbage into a consumer contract, you will be so fucked by consumer protection groups and officials in the court room that you won't be selling even lemonade in a cardboard shack in this life or the next one. And the best part... At least in Nordic countries that is 100% free for the consumers, they just report it to the right organizations and while it can take few months, they will run it through the official routes and at least this clear garbage will go through like oiled with laxatives and the consumers (at least mostly) will be refunded or the organizer will be looking at ever growing fines until they have refunded. Like only Finnish consumer protection groups forced Ticketmaster to reword their contracts at least 3 times and they are still going at it because the garbage company had decided that when COVID stuff cancelled gigs they don't need to return the handling fees because they did their work and our consumer laws are VERY clear about that when the consumer doesn't get what is promised, even the middleman doesn't get to keep their fees, the consumer is refunded completely and it's up to the affected companies to figure out who pays and what.
The Webster is an amazing venue. Been there a couple dozen times over the years. It may be my favorite place to catch a show. It's not even close to being capable to host a 50-band festival, though. And they absolutely DO NOT fuck around with shady promoters. What a horror show!
Last year capulet was at the same venue and attracted a less than 200 people for the weekend . Even then it was slightly disorganized, people paid for VIP to meet the bands and the bands ultimately just sat outside their booths the entire time. It was amazing to talk and meet the people performing. That being said it was SUPER tiny. Im pretty sure this failed because they couldnt sell enough tickets to make the show happen.
I have been waiting for you to speak on this since the moment I saw It Dies Today cancel their set which prompted me to look into what happened. Honestly, at this point I personally believe American festivals just don't measure up to European fests and aren't worth the risk. Festivals like this just ruin it for all American fests unfortunately. I'd rather spend a lot more and go overseas to a festival I know is well organized and established that will communicate well and there's a very low chance of last minute chaos than ever attend a festival in the US despite it being much closer to Canada. Between US fests starting to have a bad reputation and the US just in general being an extremely unsafe country compared to most, no thanks.
The problem is that there are very few adults in charge of anything anymore. Childish dreamers (no matter what their age) have no business running anything more complicated than a curbside lemonade stand.
This guy had to be underfunded. He was selling tickets and using pre-sales to pay deposits. When ticket sales weren't super high he ran out of money. Cascade of destruction. That's why the bands started dropping as they didn't get deposits as money ran out. My step- father was a mid tier promoter in WV and we saw this over and over.
I heard some small bands paid like 2300 to play as well. If that was me I’d be walking around slamming doors like I pay the rent around there because I literally did. The guy in charge is also grounded for being disrespectful while he’s living under my roof.
Honestly not shocked Skillet stuck with the festival. Jon would play for a single burnout and 5 cockroaches if it means he can say stupid shit into a microphone.
I don't know about how US prices are for festivals, but 230$ for a linup without at least 2-3 big heavy hitters is really overpriced considering how festivals are around here where I live.
Considering that standard shows for a single band are averaging $80-100 this year in the US that honestly was a steal if you wanted to see more than 2 artists on the lineup. Now I've personally pulled back on the number of shows I'm going to, from about 20 in 2022 to 7 or 8 because at $100 I really have to be deep into a band or artist to justify it to myself, but the market seems to support those prices so the artists and venues will keep charging them.
I find it hard to believe that the stated refund policy is legal, even for the US with it's relatively lax consumer protections. In Europe the change of venues, cancellation of day 3 and maybe even the severe lineup changes are all grounds for a refund. Depending on which country you're in even a change in band's set time (like Skillet getting the earlier slot) could be grounds for a refund In Ireland ticketmaster always has 'No Refunds' on it's tickets but even if its the support act changing/pulling out you get offered a refund. If there's a massive change to the set times, you get a refund. If there's a venue upgrade, you're entitled to a refund. Good example is when Nightwish played in the 3Arena in November 2022. A week before the promoter pulled Beast in Black and Turmion Katilot from the bill for "logistical reasons"( they didn't want to pay Irish accommodation prices for three bands). We were all entitled to a refund if we didn't want to go anymore.
Btw, these refund policy are not like those waivers at theme parks that say you can’t sue? Like when an accident happens due to negligence on the part of the park, people are able to sue despite signing a waiver. That means those people who get hurt in the park due to the own actions can’t sue, but if the park was negligent about safety or other matters, a suit can be filed against the park on behalf of whoever got hurt and/or dies. Likewise, as I understand, a venue or entity can’t disclaim negligence without some sort of legal recourse in cases where festivals must provide refunds and/or cover other lost expenses as a result of not being responsible to ensure the show, services, accommodations, etc. went off as promised reasonably speaking - like when most of the bands won’t be playing and most people can’t even fit into the new smaller venues, and the hotel is now an hour away (it would be reasonable not to provide a refund if a single band had to drop out at last minute and the organizers found a replacement or got some bands to play a bit longer to make up for it). It can’t possibly be as black and white as Tank is saying even though people signed on to the terms of no refunds when purchasing tix and packages with other accommodations/services. That’s probably why the state is investigating and may bring them to court - so it will be proven that the organizers defaulted in their promises. Or like on the basis of false advertising and/or doing a bait and switch - the organizers made promises and clearly didn’t make every effort to deliver as promised and gave a much crappier version in the end, especially when it sounds like they defaulted on financial obligations to secure the original venue for the weekend. I have a hard time believing it’s so black and white because people going to festivals would get ripped off more frequently by unscrupulous organizers on the basis that the tix are “non-refundable” - meaning slimy organizers of festivals would use that phrase as a loophole to bait and switch and make a larger profit with last minute changes to the lineup/venue/accommodations/services “due to circumstances beyond our control.” Maybe it would apply under certain circumstances like weather, a ticket holder getting sick, a ticket holder’s family emergency, travel issues ticket holders may face, etc. However, when an organizer is not doing things responsibly, which leads to major changes in the venue, lineup, accommodations, food and services, etc., I have trouble believing that there is zero recourse to get refunds. In fact, some credit cards will refund to extend warranties, if goods and services weren’t provided as promised, etc. But if there was no possible way to hold them accountable the CT AG wouldn’t have stepped in to investigate and possibly take the organizers to court. If laws need changing, the CT state senate, local assembly, and or our national government would have to step in a change laws to prevent this from happening in the future. But I wouldn’t say there’s no recourse or else the AG wouldn’t have stepped in to determine if there’s a case to help people recoup lost money. I also imagine a class action lawsuit could be an option if a lawyer wanted to take it on. I’m not a lawyer, but I I really think people will get some sort of compensation one way or another, even if it takes time. Kudos to the CT AG for investigating further. These organizers need to be held accountable when there are issues like we’ve seen at a few festivals in recent history. Why didn’t other states and cities step in the investigate the other horrible situations with festivals in their backyards?!
I don't think a festival organiser should be able to weasel out of providing refunds in a case like this just because he stated that he doesn't. This is clearly not the festival that was advertised and the resasons for this were entirely in the organiser's hand. If the organiser doesn't hold up his end of the bargain I don't see why the people who bought tickets should be bound by a refund policy like that. It's not like some weather incident happened that made it impossible to hold it as planned. This is just poor planning that could entirely have been avoided and the organiser should be the one taking responsibility for that
I was considering going to Sunday with my son who's at UCONN. I was always waiting for feedback on the first two days and the weather before pulling the trigger. I figured if it somehow sold out, oh well. The location is a long way from a city. Between that and the lack of a real headliner I expected maybe 5,000 at most. The fact that they had fewer than 1,000 for the first two days was nuts.
Hahahahaha. Dude. I was booked to photograph this event and my point of contact in the media teamed emailed me the day before the announcement saying they quit without explanation. Good thing I didn’t book a hotel or anything
Blue ridge is why I started watching this cool channel, and in turn why I started listen to Electric Callboy. So in a weird way I'm greatful they keep fucking up festivals.
Talking about non-refund policies for tickets, those don't have absolute legal status. In a case like this, where you bought tickets to a festival and then it was cancelled or you couldn't fit in the smaller venue, you're still owed a refund because the festival didn't uphold their end of the deal. You're not going to get a refund if the venue changes but everyone still fits, or if one or two bands drop last minute. But in this case, anyone with Sunday tickets or Friday/Saturday tickets who couldn't fit in the new venue should get refunds, whether that's through a lawsuit, settlement, or attorney general.
Legally speaking you may put whatever you want in a contract. You can write down in the fine lines that everybody buying a ticket sells his future offspings in slavery. Even if you agree the t&c, as slavery is illegal, this clause is without merit.
I was in the music industry pre-COVID and from my experience, really sounds like people trying to do festivals who don't have the professional experience to know how to do it right. Sorry guys, that actually years of experience and much research and its not something you should just jump into.
🔒 Guard yourself from data brokers and spammers and get 60% off an annual plan from INCOGNI by clicking this link: incogni.com/tankthetech
Hold on. No. The "no refund" policy does not cover someone in the event of outright fraud and intent to deceive which this looks IMO to have been. That is almost certainly why the AG is involved. You cant just take peoples money and say, "sorry, you agreed to be ripped off." Capulet made statements and claims and agreed to sell a product. They cant just decide not to do it or to skeeze out and then say, sucks to be you. They sold specific services then did not provide those services. Talk to a lawyer and they will tell you fraud is not covered by some statement slipped into a FAQ.
This looks like a Christian rock fest....sorta!
The Montagues should put on their own festival, to show up the Capulets 🥁
Underrated comment.
"ALL ARE PUNISHED!"
😂😂😂😂😂
Agreed
Rpm fest is in Montague MA. That kinda counts
Do u bite your thumb at me sir?!
There was a Press Conference with the Attorney General, and he believes that the non refund policy will not hold up in court
Good.
Yeah, sounds like he would be covered in the case of weather, a handful of bands dropping off, or a reasonable venue change (reasonable meaning: within a reasonable distance and fairly comparable capacity).
In the case of a massive bait and switch like this, his little disclaimer like this is not good enough.
The AG for CT DOES NOT fuck around. He fights for EVERYONE that’s been wronged
to my knowledge you cant have a waiver like that to waive away gross negligence like what happened to this festival, so its up to the AG to prove negligence.
not paying staff, downsizing venue to 1/10th the capacity (likely the bait and switch regarding how many days and how many bands) all would contribute to proving said negligence.
@@LittIeRoo yeah exactly, you can't just throw out a blanket statement that relieves you of any form of responsibility
meanwhile I was having my best live at Rockharz in germany, watching Orden Ogan live.
Dixie toilets were cleaned hourly, water was free, showers were in abundance, we had actual flush toilets by the campground, there were security people on golf carts and wuads driving around warning people of every weather change.
they even had safe words and gestures you could make to show distress to security and have them take you to safety
Euro Festivals are superior. We all know this. 😂
@@TankTheTechBut even compared to other festivals like Rock am Ring and Wacken, this one was just run so damn smoothly by the organizers. I've never felt more at ease at a festival despite heavy wind and rainstorms on saturday 😅
This! I also went to Rockharz and can only repeat: everything was so well organized. Smooth!
@@TankTheTech we are still waiting for your japan, us-tour and euro festival tour vlogs....
Wtf is a Orden Odan?
I've noticed that both Blue Ridge and Capulet were basically run by one guy alone. This is on the verge of unthinkable in Europe, there's almost always some form of conglomerate, a label, a company or even a magazine behind the events, even the smaller ones.
Yep Metaldays has met the same fate. Couple years of covid, a flooded out venue and he's 1.1m in the hole, claiming bankruptcy and some people can't get refunds from multiple years of cancelations or impacts (2020 & 2023).
Even in the USA, it’s extremely rare. Usually you have a major radio station or its owner (such as Audacy or iHeartRadio) or concert company (like Live Nation) behind a festival.
Even Wacken are not just the 2 founder alone, they had all the years support from the farmers, village and a lot more... . You might do this if you have a TON of xp and know also a LOT of ppl that can lend a hand but a 25y old alone ? LoL nope what xp?
I am a crew member for a band that was supposed to be at capulet fest. Thankfully, we didn’t play. Our TM was telling us this was going to be an absolute sh*tshow for a while leading up to it until the plug was pulled from under us.
How do you feel about your withdrawal being considered an "act of god" according to the festival?
@@scarfothe promoter is just lying to himself. It was a shitshow because he wouldn’t or couldn’t pay anyone and had no clue what he was doing. He has no one to blame but himself
These festivals like Wacken, Hellfest, Copenhell, Graspop, Masters of Rock, etc., show how well Europe organizes Rock/Metal festivals. It's a shame we can't do the same here.
Dwp and some of the indep guys (rock fest in wi as example, or rok in ok before dwp bought this year) know how to do it. It's the damn amateurs that are the problem.
Maryland Death Fest. I aim to get there next year.
We did but unfortunately those festivals don't exist anymore and kinda went to shit right before they went away. Now we're stuck with these shit shows.
Welcome to Rockville, Louder than Life, New England Metal and Hardcore Festival are just some that are well organized
I agree with most of the comments here.. the DWP are well run based on other fans experience there .. my two cents we need more diversity in the bands that play those festivals in N America… there’s tons of great rock and metal in Europe and other parts of the world… they seldom get to play the states.. but many of our greatest bands go overseas for the summer festivals… make it work logistically and ultimately for the fans!!! 🤘🤘
Your insight on these festival disasters is second to none on TH-cam. Keep up the pressure on these guys and keep educating us.
Never forget Louisville Death Fest. Promoter bailed mid-fest, then some attendees stepped up and ran the last day while another attendee drove to the promoter's house and made him pay the venue. Shitty show saved as much as possible by the community
That's crazy, my europeans ass can't fathom
Oof!
The no refund policy doesn't cover fraud. Selling tickets when venue had been downgraded, and linup had significantly changed would seem to qualify as fraud.
The state AG has already gotten involved. I would not be surprised if criminal charges ended up resulting.
I am the TD for a 1200 cap venue, I cannot even fathom the logistics of having bands of that level in a venue that size.
Parking for production vehicles, loading docks to handle multiple artists loading in and out, space for dead cases even. Props to the venue crew for even trying to pull it off.
Just purely out of curiosity:
Once you and the EC-Boys are done with the summer festival season, i'd like to see a "Best Festival" Video from you.
Having some examples and explanations on how a good festival should be done, would be really nice.
I only had positive experiences with EU-Festivals, so i guess there should be some good examples from this year's tour.
it's a real bummer to see shit like BRR/Capulet happen, i'd probably be fuming if i experienced something like that, bc i'm usually excited a year in advance
Seconding this, I'd love to see a video like that from you, Tank!
As a vocalist myself having performed at Blue Ridge, I think it takes the bait my experience at blue ridge was horrible the dressing room I was in had no ac at all was quite unorganized and had poor sanitation, as for the festival itself, the lines to get to shows were horrible, it was VERY hot and there was little water available. The piles of trash were absolutely disgusting, and no one did anything about it, when the storms hit, trying people off the festival grounds, to safety was a nightmare, and very unorganized. Overall it was really bad and I will never do it again.
Just because the website says "non-refundable" they still have a legal obligation to deliver what was advertised to consumers. Generic disclaimers mean nothing in bait-and-switch situations.
From what you said about both festivals, the match up between the two is like a dumpster fire competing with a nuclear explosion. 😅
Hahahahaha. Good analogy.
I went to the first day of capulet. I wasn’t ripped off like most people. I had to drive just as far as would have if the venue hadn’t changed. I still got to see the bands I wanted to see. If I had known it was going to be held at the Webster I wouldn’t have bought a ticket. It’s one of the worst venues in New England. The sound/acoustics are the worst. One of the rougher parts of the city. Mostly just street parking nearby. The stage set up is really difficult for bands to set up and break down, single staircase without any guide rails.
I was at Houston Open Air, it got cancelled day of, due to "inclement weather" under clear skies. A7x and a couple other headliners managed to do a show later that day by getting a local venue to open up on a night it was typically closed and honored all festival tickets. I didn't get to go in, because I was planning to buy my festival tickets at the entry and couldn't get one. Luckily, Starset also got a different local venue to let them play as well, and that show was completely free, for everyone. This was back when there was only 4 of them, and they still had the black jumpsuits instead of the white ones. Came and hung out with everyone after the show in the bar, it was great.
Here's the thing, legally - contracts go both ways. They can say the tickets are non-refundable and whoever bought them agrees to that policy, but if THEY don't fulfill their end of the contract (IE putting on the show the buyer paid for, etc), the contract is null and void. Unfortunately, the only recourse is a lawsuit. People aren't getting their money back likely without a class-action lawsuit and those require enough people to want to fight it. In my experience, most people just want to move on.
Exactly.
Had to scroll way too far for this comment...
Contracts can be legally deemed void if there is the practice of bad faith involved.
Bad faith is implied in the fact the organizer "didn't pay the rent", which directly led to the decline of the events that happened.
If say a tornado happened and they had to change venues or what not... well, that's not their fault.
Also, the amount of bands dropping before the concert is also key indicators that something was going on and isn't the product/show that people paid for. So right there, you can't promise someone one thing, say no refunds, then give them only half of it...
To me it sounds like the company, or really that one guy with probably a few people working with him - Was trying to pull this off with $0 in the bank account, and just thought they could stall paying everyone, and pay them once they got their money from the ticket sales... (If they actually planned to pay anyone at all).
Unfortunately for them and any many people, the bands were probably dropping off beforehand due to deposits not being made, and the venues just straight up kicked them out when they wern't paid.
@@bmir89 you're exactly right. That's why Blue Ridge is still claiming the show was cancelled due to weather, because weather is an act of God. They're not at fault and don't owe anything other than unpaid labor.
@@bmir89 exactly right. "Acts of God" (that is actually the legal term) exempt the festival organizers from liability if the show fails. That's why Blue Ridge is still claiming they cancelled the festival due to weather. I think they're full of shit but good luck proving that in court. Capulet doesn't have that to fall back on
@@PalmelaHanderson In Germany it is "higher force". If your train didnt go because of a very bad snowstorm, that is higher force. They still have to get you to where you wanted to go though afterwards without paying more. But you cant easily sure for additional stuff.
In this case, its easy. One person wouldve to go to court and it would be a general ruling. And an easy one, if it goes to trial.
In the case of Blue Ridge, they canceled because of bad weather, officially, but couldve continued after the storm the next day. That would be held against them. You couldnt sue for that one day though.
Otherwise the "non-refundable" part would be illegal in most European countries. Even if you agree to the terms, terms that are not to be anticipated by the purchaser, are void. And scaling down is not something you have to anticipate. It just would be void in that case.
Are credit card charge backs not an option?
I think it's pretty wild that a general non refund policy in the US is even possible. I would have guessed it works like everywhere else. If you sell a service but don't provide the service, people can get refunds.
A former acquaintance of mine tried something similar on a way smaller scale. He booked a somewhat large venue and a mid size German act. Filled the bill with his friends and mismanaged so hard, that the headlining band left without playing a single note. This stunt possibly caused the headlining acts label to blacklist our entire state for booking any of their clients.
One of the things that I'm curious about that I don't think you covered in here: If they were selling tickets for a 13000 capacity venue, and then stepped down to a 1300 capacity venue, if more than 1300 people actually showed up, what happened? They just got turned away?
That’s actually a really good question.
Tbh us Capulet attendees assumed less than 1300 weekend tickets were sold, hence why they could pull off this change. No idea how Sunday would have worked however with a 250 cap room only
@@maneyac16 If they hadn't sold even to even fill a 1300 capacity venue, it might also explain why they weren't paying venues. Maybe they legit didn't have any money.
@@TankTheTech I know you mentioned they ran the two previous years successfully, so I'm also really curious how the number of bands/size of venue compared to the previous years. Maybe it was smaller and they tried to grow too big too fast?
@@maneyac16 Also just curious, were you there for any of the previous years? Was it a much smaller festival in previous years?
The non refundable tickets clause would not fly in the EU. If a show/festival is cancelled or postponed they are legally obliged to give refunds, even if there's a no refunds clause.
It doesn't fly in the US either. They will have to pay the money back. I hope their insurance premium was paid up, lol.
Saying something on a website does not make it legally binding. It's really just there to discourage people from trying to get a refund.
There was also a fesitval last weekend in Austria, the Rolling Loud, that also had catastrophic organization. Problems with public transport, staff not having a clue about anything and the lack of watersupplies. The organizer thou, said that everything went smothly (it did not)
On their website a quote from 2023: Rolling Loud continues its successful streak
ohhhh.... well, I guess not anymore...?
Holy shit dude I thought I clicked on a random channel when I glanced over the thumbnail and didn't recognize you lol
As one of the barricade guys catching crowd surfers working the stage Electric Callboy played At Blue Ridge... can confirm. The behind the scenes was a nightmare.
Look into Metaldays in Slovenia here in Europe. Once a wonderful festival that just went to hell after Covid. Stories of bands not getting paid, no transfer back to the airport after their gig, etc. People where promised refunds for the 2020 edition and it has basically become a meme for them asking when the refunds will occur. They have also, allegedly, messed up the relations with the town where it was held so badly that it has created problems for other festivals held in that town. The festival had the unfortune to also end up in a massive storm last year so the campground was flooded. The festival went out with a statement yesterday that they will never hold another edition, people had been expecting that for a while though.
It's pretty simple. It isn't easy to throw a festival. All these people who just think, I'll hire a bunch of bands and it will be great, need to go away. The large national guys, and the good independent ones, know that it's all about operations and logistics. The band list doesn't matter if people can't get in. The band list doesn't matter if you don't have facilities that are up to par. The band list doesn't matter if people don't have water. Etc. These people who do this, need face a consequence. Sadly, in this country, it's easy to skirt financial obligations.
Something does need to change regarding insurance/tickets/policies regarding cancellations. The intent of the act of god is things out of their control. Not improperly running an event. That's why the AG needs to be looking into this. It's fraud. Not a hail and lightning storm.
The AG already made a statement saying the "no refunds" clause most likely won't stand in court.
@N.Cognito yay! It's about time!
The guys from Skillet seem like the type of people who would go and play for the people who showed up after nothing but issues from the promoter, they probably knew the shutdown was coming and worked something out to play a set and then bounce. Probably what i wouldve done “well were here and people came to see us and have already been screwed, lets play for em” wouldnt surprise me
Plus you can always sell merch =)
He sold less than 2000 tickets and claimed there was more than 3500 sold a month out.
We live in a country where people will pay $20 for a $2 bill sold by the last president. We are possibly the dumbest people on earth.
Played New England metal fest in 2008. The building was at last minute after all staging and bands where still showing up condemed by the local code people saying the building was not fit for the purpose. Apperently no one did a prior inspection. Whole night was a cluster. Ended up playing in parking lot to like 700-800 ppl. And half the bands dropped off. The promoter was also almost killed. There were bands like mustache etc flying in from Europe not even knowing the situation. Goes to show one small fuk up can cause a meltdown. We ended up playing as did divine heresy but night was bad vibes. I also had my trigger module stolen that night. Never forget it.
Hopefully there is some sort of help for the folks who paid for this mess, but I agree with you that Blue Ridge was a lot worse. The sanitation related stuff, lack of food and water and just general issues with the festival grounds at BR just makes it worse. The only "festival" I've been to was a local one at a smallish venue but it was all indoor and in the winter. Overall was a great time, would go again.
As a Capulet Fest “attendee” I have to agree. It’s really a situation of choosing whether you prefer to be screwed with 24 hours notice (Capulet) or screwed when you’re already at the festival grounds/campsite. Both situations are completely inexcusable & avoidable with a decent promoter
Tank show us how a festival is ran from the day of booking to actual show day
Can we do one better and do a kickstarter for Tankfest?
Maybe an interview with a festival organizer ?
@@sumelar Tankfest? An exhibition of tracked armoured combat vehicles? Maybe book Sabaton... 😉😁🤘
Even though I saw the Instagram posts and the previous video, I still had a "Who's that? Oh." moment when I saw the thumbnail with Tank's new look lol
Meanwhile when rain made the parking fields for Graspop Metal Meeting unusable this year they let us know 'hey we're sorry, parking is closed, you're getting your parking ticket refunded automatically'
When rain affected part of the camping grounds there were messages all over the festival telling you where to go and that you would get help if you were affected. I don't know what help they provided as I got lucky, but it makes me feel like they have their shit set up right, at least. They really did their best.
Little things can do a lot to make or break confidence in a festival/event
We disputed the charge with our bank and got our tickets back that way. We had weekend tickets and there was no communication from the festival directly to the festival goers. Some people were still unaware that the festival was not happening at Thompson speedway because they did nothing but post on their social media. No emails were sent out early enough to address the situation professionally.
Blue Ridge 2023 attendee here - definitely go the chargeback route with your bank asap and claim services were not rendered. Gather as much evidence as you can (social media screenshots, news articles, even this video) and send it in an email (I had to ask my bank for the right email over the phone but it was better than explaining the situation to a bunch of different customer service reps). Yes the festival happened and their refund policy is tight but the festival did not happen to the extent that was promised (3 days with 50+ bands and even more missed services if you paid for VIP/camping). Despite ~40% of Blue Ridge technically happening last year I was able to get a full refund.
I got 3 days worth back, camping $ too. Didn't get early camping entry back or anything else, but it was better than nothing!!
By doing a charge back with Chase. They even knew what it was all about.
they did NOT "cover themselves" by making you click the agree button. if they fail to deliver the product you paid for, those terms don't save them, THEY broke the contract (which is in effect what buying a ticket is). you can't just write in a clause saying you're not responsible for not supplying the offered product that people purchased. customers were buying a ticket (a CONTRACT), to see aforementioned bands, on specific days, at a specific location, any change to that in bad faith will render the non-refundable portion null and void.
Man, the fact that crappy organizers are still getting away with this crap is amazing. people have learned nothing from Woodstock '99, Fyre and BRRF. Having survived the utter shitshow(literally) of Woodstock '99, it still boggles my mind.
What Was BRRF?
@@gianmarcobaudazzi9961 Blue Ridge Rock Festival...
Estevan lied about ticket sales and the finances to the people who booked/coordinated the show. I have 100% proof that the only reason he kept this going was to avoid refunding tickets.
He (Estevan) still owes over 10k to the people who planned this event and booked most of the talent.
Holy shit, Tank shaved!
Been waiting on you to cover this! 🤘🏻🤘🏻
Survived blue ridge and purchased tickets for capulet! I understand the Change of venue ! I would have drove 5 extra hours if my camping was also honored !! I got an email saying I’d be offered that hotel an hour away. I would have to use my credit card at check it but they would cover the bill. Also the parking would be a maybe when I arrived . Sounded sketchy !! So I didn’t go!
Parking at the Webster is very small . I haven’t been there for a while but probably been there a few dozen times . Many many people had there cars broken into
They didn’t honor the hotel thing, at all. A vendor went to the hotel to get his room and was told nothing was setup for him, so he has to post up in a Walmart parking lot for one night then he packed up and left the second day.
Totally random statement:
With the trimmed beard, you bear an uncanny likeness with Mac from It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia!
Haley Joel Ozzfest
Tank, you rule. Thanks for putting the sponsor in a chapter.
My time is my most valuable thing I have.
Also, don't buy the extra "insurance". I've done it 2x for shows in other states and still lost my money. Between ticket costs, scalpers, and everything else, it has become way more stressful than standing in line at the grocery store or music store to buy a paper ticket.
concert/event insurance always. i never regretted paying the extra on my Def Lep/Motley/Poison tickets originally scheduled for summer of 2020
I suspect that ticket sales were not what they accounted tor. Especially the 750 weekend VIP Pass. With paying deposits to the bands, venue and production company they ran out of money. I read somewhere else the production company was owed 110k, and the track was not fully paid. I also kind wonder if there wasnt any permits to hold the festival at the track.
Moondance Jam in MN said HOLD MY BEER. It was supposed to be Kansas, Parts of Journey, Creed, Blue Oyster Cult, Foghat and others on July 18-20th but on July 2nd citing "present economic climate" they changed the entire lineup to local/regional acts and initially said "refunds will not be offered." Instead they could go to the original show OR the Deuces Wild Dueling Pianos tickets (held on Aug. 9) or Moondance Harvest Moon Festival (Sept. 21). Obviously there was outrage and 8 days later they finally caved offering refunds, and noted "We just did not meet the necessary financial thresholds to produce a festival with national touring attractions". 30+ year festival still somehow financially mismanaging its way into cancellation weeks before the show. Insanity.
I’m noticing this same trend of scam festivals but for North American K-Pop shows. In 2022, there was KAMP Festival, that had a lot of very well known groups on the line up. It was nearly sold out with nonrefundable tickets but the week of the festival, a bunch of groups had to drop out. It turned out that the company hosting the festival wouldn’t pay to sponsor all their visas so that they could legally work here. They tried this again in 2023 in Mexico. KCON in LA used to be reputable but have had a significant decline- they even tried posting “trendy” videos that were just sexually harassing artists. I’m not sure why people are hosting shows for niche music (but in high demand such metal & K-Pop) to just exploit fans and use them as a cash cow but I noticed this occurring more after COVID when the concert industry began trying to recoup from a massive financial loss.
I played the first rendition of the fest while playing with ISMFOF. We Co-Headlined that night and the vibes this dude gave were something else... Tried to warn as many as I could to avoid this, but I feel for everyone who made plans.. btw thier money comes from a church organization lol
It wasn't 'Unforeseen Circumstances" Estevan had spent all the money prior to obtaining insurance for Thompson Speedway for the event and didn't have enough money for production who walked off due to not having their money.
At this point I feel like bands should create their own independent venue and just hold one massive event every year.
Cut out all the shady organizers and just have it what it's meant to be - the bands and the fans. I admit I don't know much about the business side of things, but it's an idea I've thought about for awhile.
One festival I actually trust is So What Fest. If every festival was handled the way that that one was, I'd trust it.
Gives me Pandemonium Fest vibes that happened earlier this year. Im glad i didnt buy tix as it was an absolute cluster fuck. And I say that as an audio tech, ive done and been to a lot of festivals.
As the AG pointed out, that boilerplate legal language doesn't actually protect promoters. They can put that there and lean on it, but they'll lose in court. A contract is two directional. They promised to provide certain things in exchange for a certain price. If those things are not provided, every aspect of the contract is void, including "no refund" clauses.
I wonder if sponsorships might be part of the problem. Usually ticket sales are not the biggest earner for events like this. Usually it's sponsors and I don't think people know that so it might be that these inexperienced festival runners are setting prices that they think will cover their costs but then they're not doing the work to go grab sponsors for their events that will actually subsidize ticket, performer, and venue costs
Also I agree with your assessment. A festival where the biggest issue is communication is still not as bad as the festival where injury and hospitalization due to how everything is being run as the biggest issue.
As someone who's only a passive consumer of news regarding poorly run events, it surprises me just how many instances there seem to be of event organizers refusing to pay venues properly before the event, resulting in the event getting moved or cancelled the day of. Like, I do understand that much of an event's revenue comes from ticket sales as well as on-ground merchandise and amenities like food or water, but its wild to me that so many venues/locations are willing to wait that long for payment, or at least partial payment. Like it really seems like the raceway really gave the organizers until the day before the event to pay, and that's just so bizarre to me. Why give such a broad window of payment time? All it does is increase the risk of an immense failure and complete loss of money for every possible attendee. It's not just disastrous events, too; it seems like it's just a core practice amongst any moneymaking venture to not tell anybody that shit has fallen through until the last possible second, or even later. People are lucky if they get laid off of their job with even a two week notice, and it seems like tons of fans willing to attend events are lucky if they get any sort upfront communication until after the event is basically over.
18:22 ,
Their attorney general of the state has already made a statement saying that he is coming for them and he doesn’t care about the no refund policy
rock fest cost me 150 for 4 days ( pre show for 3 day ticket holders)
Another great video from Tank! This makes me think of a metal festival I went to years ago here in Upstate New York held at the Oswego Motor Speedway. 5FDP and Killswitch Engage were the headliners on the main stage. The first mistake made was the promotors completely over sold the festival tickets. Then half-way through the day about half the bands still scheduled to play are no longer playing because the dumb ass crew they hired brought in an unsafe headlining stage for not only the bands to play on but it was also unsafe for the fans to be there around it. They literally had to truck-in a completely new stage and set it all up for the final bands. It ended with Trivium, Killswitch Engage and 5FDP on the main stage. I walked around the crowd during Killswitch and found Frankie Palmeri the singer in Emmure watching the set. I stopped, gave him and fist bump with a hug and said I was sorry his band never got to play the festival that day. He was very nice. In the end I am EXTREMELY glad they decided to ship in a new stage. It could have been a massive catastrophe with lots of lives lost that day due to poor management at a metal festival.
Yeah the AG said that refund policy ain't going to hold up. Minimal differences between ticket purchase and event date can be covered by non refund policies, you can't promise one thing and then completely change it up the way this guy did.
And this is why, despite some of its shortcomings, I will still go to Rock Fest in Cadott. Sure, security has been overbearing about the "No Moshing" rule, but as far as everything else is concerned? At least they have their shit together, and have been making efforts to improve the festival and camp grounds year after year, showing that they're investing the money back into the fan experience. It's not always a hit, but at least it's not a total miss. You pay for what you want to experience. You want the Rockstar treatment? You're gonna pay for it. You just want to get in and have fun? Get your tix early and it's probably the cheapest in the nation. Sometimes I have my doubts, but damn does shit like this make me grateful for what we DO have. Still think you should come take a look! They've also just announced a new sister EDM festival launching next year, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it!
In the UK there are laws that prevent this sort of thing as certain obligations on the part of the provider cannot be “contracted out” they must be given (or a suitable alternative) or else the provider will have broken the law. (See unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations) 😊
With the AG getting involved there’s a good chance of trying to make them pay-however there’s also a good chance the promoter will declare bankruptcy. Or will disappear.
Hey tank I just started working in my local stage hands union, I’m hoping to become an audio engineer one day and your videos have been a big inspiration on my journey!
Can't be sure about how this stuff works in the US but here in Europe you can write anything you'd like in your terms of conditions, but you're still bound by law. That says pretty much you have a right to undo a purchase if the seller fails to deliver what they said they would.
Not sure how their disclaimer covers them when the festival was cancelled Sunday and the capacity went 13k to 1300 people.
I would guess that since...some band played one song, they're covered for the non-refund policy as "a show" happened. If it was entirely cancelled, it could be considered not meeting the agreement, but I am not a lawyer.
It wasn’t a three day show as promised in the ticket
Oh man, I haven't thought of The Webster in years. I been to probably 100 shows there. It's an amazing shithole of a venue that I will always love.
"Intimate" is such a loaded word in the context of a promoter talking about the venue
Nothing More said they lost $10,000 out of their pocket due to crew costs and such. So stuff like that really sucks. I feel bad for the bands too
Absolutely off-topic question:
What do you do in a festival if you have left-handed drummers, since you usually share the same kit?
Reminds me of Comstock in Nebraska
This shit was wild. He completely ghosted bands, dropped them from the fest. They found out when they weren't on the flyer. It was completely unacceptable how this was handled. The fans are the ones that suffered the most. We got a day off at the beach and fans lost hundreds of dollars and time off work they can't get back. Such a bummer this happened.
I heard the speedway didn’t get the rent for the festival so they canceled it and they had to find another venue
Fests turned into scams to me in 98 when I got there & realized I only got to see 1/2 the bands I wanted to see because they had 2 bands playing at once.
13,000 is the capacity of the Speedway, Capulet Fest wasn't going to be allowed to exceed 5,000 according to their contract. That was best case scenario that clearly didn't work out.
225 dollar for 3 days is interesting to me. im paying 180€ for 4 days of bands and an additional day of partying on the camping ground with my camp at summerbreeze
It's wild to me that under US law you can just include a small caveat somewhere in the T&C that prevents refunds. Consumer protection really needs a boost in America.
So, the band LiveKill were on the small stage and that room was double booked. They, unfortunately, had their set cut after one song because the room needed to be cleared out and setup for the other event scheduled to be in there, but the main room was still being used for the rest of the bands.
This is why I love EU, the consumer protection is on the level that makes US really look like some some Crayon eating corporate hellhole. I can pretty much guarantee that in anywhere EU you put that kind of garbage into a consumer contract, you will be so fucked by consumer protection groups and officials in the court room that you won't be selling even lemonade in a cardboard shack in this life or the next one. And the best part... At least in Nordic countries that is 100% free for the consumers, they just report it to the right organizations and while it can take few months, they will run it through the official routes and at least this clear garbage will go through like oiled with laxatives and the consumers (at least mostly) will be refunded or the organizer will be looking at ever growing fines until they have refunded.
Like only Finnish consumer protection groups forced Ticketmaster to reword their contracts at least 3 times and they are still going at it because the garbage company had decided that when COVID stuff cancelled gigs they don't need to return the handling fees because they did their work and our consumer laws are VERY clear about that when the consumer doesn't get what is promised, even the middleman doesn't get to keep their fees, the consumer is refunded completely and it's up to the affected companies to figure out who pays and what.
The Webster is an amazing venue. Been there a couple dozen times over the years. It may be my favorite place to catch a show. It's not even close to being capable to host a 50-band festival, though. And they absolutely DO NOT fuck around with shady promoters. What a horror show!
I saw Ra there in 2003. Enjoyed the room, but it was never suitable for something like this.
@@JamesLatimer Ra. Now THERE is an underrated band. Must have been a great show.
@@Downhuman74 it was. If there was ever a band that I thought should’ve been bigger than they were, Ra was them. Such an interesting sound.
@@JamesLatimer Indeed. Ahead of their time, really. From One sounds like it could have come out last year.
Last year capulet was at the same venue and attracted a less than 200 people for the weekend . Even then it was slightly disorganized, people paid for VIP to meet the bands and the bands ultimately just sat outside their booths the entire time. It was amazing to talk and meet the people performing. That being said it was SUPER tiny. Im pretty sure this failed because they couldnt sell enough tickets to make the show happen.
I have been waiting for you to speak on this since the moment I saw It Dies Today cancel their set which prompted me to look into what happened.
Honestly, at this point I personally believe American festivals just don't measure up to European fests and aren't worth the risk. Festivals like this just ruin it for all American fests unfortunately. I'd rather spend a lot more and go overseas to a festival I know is well organized and established that will communicate well and there's a very low chance of last minute chaos than ever attend a festival in the US despite it being much closer to Canada. Between US fests starting to have a bad reputation and the US just in general being an extremely unsafe country compared to most, no thanks.
The problem is that there are very few adults in charge of anything anymore. Childish dreamers (no matter what their age) have no business running anything more complicated than a curbside lemonade stand.
This guy had to be underfunded. He was selling tickets and using pre-sales to pay deposits. When ticket sales weren't super high he ran out of money. Cascade of destruction. That's why the bands started dropping as they didn't get deposits as money ran out. My step- father was a mid tier promoter in WV and we saw this over and over.
I heard some small bands paid like 2300 to play as well. If that was me I’d be walking around slamming doors like I pay the rent around there because I literally did. The guy in charge is also grounded for being disrespectful while he’s living under my roof.
Honestly not shocked Skillet stuck with the festival. Jon would play for a single burnout and 5 cockroaches if it means he can say stupid shit into a microphone.
I don't know about how US prices are for festivals, but 230$ for a linup without at least 2-3 big heavy hitters is really overpriced considering how festivals are around here where I live.
Considering that standard shows for a single band are averaging $80-100 this year in the US that honestly was a steal if you wanted to see more than 2 artists on the lineup.
Now I've personally pulled back on the number of shows I'm going to, from about 20 in 2022 to 7 or 8 because at $100 I really have to be deep into a band or artist to justify it to myself, but the market seems to support those prices so the artists and venues will keep charging them.
I find it hard to believe that the stated refund policy is legal, even for the US with it's relatively lax consumer protections. In Europe the change of venues, cancellation of day 3 and maybe even the severe lineup changes are all grounds for a refund. Depending on which country you're in even a change in band's set time (like Skillet getting the earlier slot) could be grounds for a refund
In Ireland ticketmaster always has 'No Refunds' on it's tickets but even if its the support act changing/pulling out you get offered a refund. If there's a massive change to the set times, you get a refund. If there's a venue upgrade, you're entitled to a refund. Good example is when Nightwish played in the 3Arena in November 2022. A week before the promoter pulled Beast in Black and Turmion Katilot from the bill for "logistical reasons"( they didn't want to pay Irish accommodation prices for three bands). We were all entitled to a refund if we didn't want to go anymore.
Btw, these refund policy are not like those waivers at theme parks that say you can’t sue? Like when an accident happens due to negligence on the part of the park, people are able to sue despite signing a waiver. That means those people who get hurt in the park due to the own actions can’t sue, but if the park was negligent about safety or other matters, a suit can be filed against the park on behalf of whoever got hurt and/or dies. Likewise, as I understand, a venue or entity can’t disclaim negligence without some sort of legal recourse in cases where festivals must provide refunds and/or cover other lost expenses as a result of not being responsible to ensure the show, services, accommodations, etc. went off as promised reasonably speaking - like when most of the bands won’t be playing and most people can’t even fit into the new smaller venues, and the hotel is now an hour away (it would be reasonable not to provide a refund if a single band had to drop out at last minute and the organizers found a replacement or got some bands to play a bit longer to make up for it).
It can’t possibly be as black and white as Tank is saying even though people signed on to the terms of no refunds when purchasing tix and packages with other accommodations/services. That’s probably why the state is investigating and may bring them to court - so it will be proven that the organizers defaulted in their promises. Or like on the basis of false advertising and/or doing a bait and switch - the organizers made promises and clearly didn’t make every effort to deliver as promised and gave a much crappier version in the end, especially when it sounds like they defaulted on financial obligations to secure the original venue for the weekend.
I have a hard time believing it’s so black and white because people going to festivals would get ripped off more frequently by unscrupulous organizers on the basis that the tix are “non-refundable” - meaning slimy organizers of festivals would use that phrase as a loophole to bait and switch and make a larger profit with last minute changes to the lineup/venue/accommodations/services “due to circumstances beyond our control.” Maybe it would apply under certain circumstances like weather, a ticket holder getting sick, a ticket holder’s family emergency, travel issues ticket holders may face, etc. However, when an organizer is not doing things responsibly, which leads to major changes in the venue, lineup, accommodations, food and services, etc., I have trouble believing that there is zero recourse to get refunds.
In fact, some credit cards will refund to extend warranties, if goods and services weren’t provided as promised, etc. But if there was no possible way to hold them accountable the CT AG wouldn’t have stepped in to investigate and possibly take the organizers to court.
If laws need changing, the CT state senate, local assembly, and or our national government would have to step in a change laws to prevent this from happening in the future. But I wouldn’t say there’s no recourse or else the AG wouldn’t have stepped in to determine if there’s a case to help people recoup lost money.
I also imagine a class action lawsuit could be an option if a lawyer wanted to take it on.
I’m not a lawyer, but I I really think people will get some sort of compensation one way or another, even if it takes time. Kudos to the CT AG for investigating further. These organizers need to be held accountable when there are issues like we’ve seen at a few festivals in recent history. Why didn’t other states and cities step in the investigate the other horrible situations with festivals in their backyards?!
I don't think a festival organiser should be able to weasel out of providing refunds in a case like this just because he stated that he doesn't. This is clearly not the festival that was advertised and the resasons for this were entirely in the organiser's hand. If the organiser doesn't hold up his end of the bargain I don't see why the people who bought tickets should be bound by a refund policy like that. It's not like some weather incident happened that made it impossible to hold it as planned. This is just poor planning that could entirely have been avoided and the organiser should be the one taking responsibility for that
Holy shit dude. You are melting away video from video. Keep up the good work man!
I was considering going to Sunday with my son who's at UCONN. I was always waiting for feedback on the first two days and the weather before pulling the trigger. I figured if it somehow sold out, oh well.
The location is a long way from a city. Between that and the lack of a real headliner I expected maybe 5,000 at most. The fact that they had fewer than 1,000 for the first two days was nuts.
Hahahahaha. Dude. I was booked to photograph this event and my point of contact in the media teamed emailed me the day before the announcement saying they quit without explanation. Good thing I didn’t book a hotel or anything
Blue ridge is why I started watching this cool channel, and in turn why I started listen to Electric Callboy. So in a weird way I'm greatful they keep fucking up festivals.
Fortunately for some of us, too, not every festival has been a crap chute. But hey, worked out for you.
Talking about non-refund policies for tickets, those don't have absolute legal status. In a case like this, where you bought tickets to a festival and then it was cancelled or you couldn't fit in the smaller venue, you're still owed a refund because the festival didn't uphold their end of the deal. You're not going to get a refund if the venue changes but everyone still fits, or if one or two bands drop last minute. But in this case, anyone with Sunday tickets or Friday/Saturday tickets who couldn't fit in the new venue should get refunds, whether that's through a lawsuit, settlement, or attorney general.
Legally speaking you may put whatever you want in a contract. You can write down in the fine lines that everybody buying a ticket sells his future offspings in slavery. Even if you agree the t&c, as slavery is illegal, this clause is without merit.
I was in the music industry pre-COVID and from my experience, really sounds like people trying to do festivals who don't have the professional experience to know how to do it right. Sorry guys, that actually years of experience and much research and its not something you should just jump into.