And he's right. Who even builds a carrier except in double income maps. In AW by web or AW Dual Strike, carriers serve no function. It's a bad APC for air units and a missile combined for slightly more than a battleship. And battleships are actually useful, but bad.
I LOVE the Carrier I dont care what Mangs says I love that Unit and hate how it was not in the original Advance wars 1 and 2. We get cruisers for choppers but not Carrier for fighters and bombers? da fuq!
Tanks really are the bread and butter unit (besides infantry). While they ostensibly lose to mechs, artillery and copters at about their price point, each one of those options has a big weakness. Mechs are too slow and need numbers to fight tanks. Artillery are slow and only really hold ground defensively. Copters are more expensive and can be shut out by a cheaper suplemental unit. The most ridiculous thing is how long tank move is compared to most other units. Their mobility is largely screwed if the maps are focused on one big choke point, which is where artillery will be most able to contest them, but in open maps they can just flank around artillery and mech forces.
@@theedwardian Sure, that just requires a map basically designed to favor mech spam. Most competitive maps have mountains but they are scattered about and mechs won't be able to get to a mountain before getting engaged by something else.
The tank units of the Advance Wars games are great for their demonstration and encapsulation of the aesthetics and style of the armies which they operate in, with each design actually reflecting a famous real-work tank/armored vehicle: Orange Star/Rubinelle: American Bradley Fighting Vehicle/M551 Sheridan Light Tank Hybrid Blue Moon/Lazuria/IDS: Soviet T-34 Main Battle Tank Green Earth: German Panzer 3/Jagdpanzer [Hunting Tank] Hybrid Yellow Comet: Japanese Type 89 I-Go with elements of the French Renault FT design (most notably the large forward tread wheel that tapers towards the rear of the vehicle)
As Flak said: "Tanks are the best and they move far. Tanks are the best" Thank you for teaching us how to not only calculate cost effective engagements but how to utilize units strategically. This is going to really come in handy in AWBW and when AW Reboot comes out, since I doubt they will change units very much. Love to see B Copters next :)
@@USDebtCrisis If we get voice acting in Re-Boot Camp, I really hope he gets a Goofy-but-funny voice (like heavy from TF2, or a "school bully" voice) and not just a generic "dumb" voice.
There are some changes to tanks in Days of Ruin. The biggest change is the reduction in starting/maximum ammunition supply from 9 ammo to 6 ammo. However this is a change that affects the vast majority of units, with most units being reduced from carrying 9 ammo to 6, and 6 to 5 for rockets. This appears to have been a balancing change to make resupply from properties or the need for APCs/Rigs greater.
Admittedly also makes sense for Days of Ruin seeing as it takes place in a post apocalyptic world. There would be less ammo to go around, let alone tank shells and rockets.
It also plays well into the rest of DoR's meta, especially with consideration to experience for units, and Tanks are also less durable in DoR then elsewhere in the series.
@@LeoMidori Tanks may be less durable, but so are medium tanks by a much larger amount. I think tanks are actually much stronger in DoR because they can take a lot more trades.
@@InternetMonster1 I only partially agree since the cost of Medium Tanks and War Tanks both are quite a bit lower as well as their durability being nudged down as a result, but you're right in that Tanks do have a fighting chance against Mediums.
13:28 I like it how you put Max's indirect units close to the enemy units so he can shoot them within their range, as if Max has his CO Power activated.
I can't help but feel like the tank v tank analysis at the end should have been a supplemental video because there's a very important omission to the main analysis, and that is against Battlecopters. You mentioned the ship matchup as not much damage and not very likely, and tank v plane is a non starter as the tank can't shoot back, but the tank v copter fight feels like it should happen reasonably often. I know you're fighting unit deployment limits on these sorts of videos on units with huge versatility in targets, which is why I feel that that situation analysis should have been it's own thing in a separate video. Great series you're doing, though. Looking forward to the rest of it.
Hello, and welcome to another of my comments about what unit of the four AW nations are based upon. OS tanks are M2 Bradley IFVs without TOWs and the autocannon. BM tanks are T-34-85s because of the cylindrical containers on the sides. YC tanks are Renault FTs or Type 89 Japanese medium tank. GE tanks are mini Sturm Tigers or Jagdpanzer series. We don't care about Black Hole units. Weirdly, in SFW, Orange Star has the Soviet tanks, I think, but the rest look like American-made. Haven't played SFW for a very long time.
"The perfect unit" is right. It's not just the stats, it's the way the tank fits into the game- it's the gold standard of unit design in Advance Wars. Flexibility and cheap cost make it a reliable workhorse in most any match, but its role is clearly defined and doesn't trample on other units' niches. Can form a strong core of an army, or supplement a different core just as easily. Equally satisfying to use and fight against. Rewards players who demonstrate good fundamentals, but doesn't punish mistakes or bad play too harshly. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
As Flak says in the Tutorial, Tanks are the best. No change needed. They really do well to keep the fight going until both players have a good economy and can deploy the good stuff like bombers and neotanks. It is incredibly important to understand positioning with tanks and when the can and cannot take fights.
Neo-tanks are more so lategame units. When you have a substantial income superiority they can be nice to finish your opponent off more quickly. That is except for Colin where they really are the best unit to hold out for. It's how I usually play him. Play defense and pocket the extra money from gold rush until you can build a whole bunch of neo-tanks that just can't be stopped. But neo-tanks are a unit to use to leverage a superiority in income. Also against the CPU they are nice as the CPU doesn't surrender when it's hopeless. Very often grinding through the waves of fodder units is more than half the battle which is something I do still hope they'll fix in the remake.
I just wanted to say that the advice to cover your units by overlapping their movement range is one of the most useful pieces of advice I've seen for advance wars. It ended my losing streak on awbw.
I think Bombers where an intentional omission, due to the huge price difference between them. If you're building Bombers for the express purpose of countering Tanks, both you and your opponent are doing something wrong because that game should already be over. You build Bombers for Medium Tanks and Neotanks, maybe Battleships if any exist. I very much agree, though, Battlecopters not being mentioned at all in the analysis is kind of criminal negligence. Battlecopters are pretty much the go-to counter for Tanks on any map with access to an Airport. They only cost 2000 more, have comparable mobility, and fair equally well against Infantry, Mech, and Recon. Only real difference is Battlecopters will need APC support, where as Tanks generally don't. I suppose Airport vs Base availability is also relevant.
I'm going to weigh in with some of my thoughts that are tangentially related to what I said about Mechs. i know I said Mangs doesn't need to show every unit matchup and should just show the highlights, but for tanks, unlike say Recons or AA, I think just about every ground engagement actually is kind of relevant. A funny thing is that 4 tanks ganging up on a Medium tank has almost the same result as 4 Mechs doing it, but it's completely not worth it for the tanks thanks to their cost. on the other hand, 4 mechs getting the strike on a Medium tank on the roads is a tad unlikely since unlike tanks, they move slowly. Getting 2 Mechs and a Tank to strike first isn't the most common thing ever, but I've done it a few times thanks to the fact that they don't move as fast as tanks. Is this worth it? I talked about this in a comment on the mechs video. Well, if the medium tank is on the road and one Mech can strike from a city, I'd say go for it. The hardest counterattack will be on the unit that strikes first and if you do it with a Mech on a city, it will take less damage. The second attack should be from the other Mech, hopefully from defensive terrain but even from roads is fine. By the time you make the third attack with your Tank, a lot of the bite of the medium tank is gone, so I'd say this is worth it if your Tank can strike from plains or better and your Mech can strike from a city, even an enemy city. I'm assuming there aren't any enemies "guarding" the Medium tank. Two tanks can beat a tank on a city yes. If the defender has a second tank, he can just drive up to the city and get the first strike on the attacker's tank. Funnily enough, there is a use for a Mech here since a Mech guarding the tank does exactly the same thing. So feel free to use a tank to bait out your opponent if your plodding Mech is close by.
Attacking a tank on a city from roads is more common than you might think. With Medium Tanks, their slightly slower movement often means they will need to stick to roads. On almost all AW2 VS maps, most of the cities are connected with a road network and while almost every city has a plain (or 3) next to it, it takes can 2 more movement to get in place to attack from plains instead of roads when driving from one city to another. With Tanks this happens less often, but it does happen now and then, most often when you finish repairing a tank and send it off to the front. It seems than the map designs on AWBW make it more likely a Medium Tank is the one forced to attack a tank on a city form roads since Tanks nearly always have that last 2 movement ready. Or that might just be because people use 1 HP units as roadblocks instead of repairing them, so coming up just short hardly every happens.
I think a good addition to this series would be a short segment that lists some COs that are good or bad with the unit in question. Most of them would be pretty obvious (ex: Grit has great artillery, naval units are even worse on Eagle) but I think it would be good for beginners. Additionally, you could talk about common strategies you could use with the unit (like join-capping with infantry). Maybe make that another series called Unit Tactics/Strategies or CO Analysis? Either way, this is a really great series.
I'd have to disagree. Pure unit analysis and applied tactics is a fine topic for a video. And I would rather watch one video on Grit than hear that he is not the greatest at using direct ground units in separate videos for all three tanks, anti-air, recon, and so on. Mangs did start discussing tactical uses for units, such as join capping. Which is more helpful than just seeing matchups and terrain being used.
@@GuardianTactician Towards the end of the post, I started leaning towards making the segments their own series. And he did discuss tactics but I thinking of more advanced tactics and formations. Like this series would be the Intro to Units (101) to give people a basic rundown and what I have in mind would be the Unit Tactics (201) or Unit Formations (301) like how college classes work.
That's why I open up with an artilery in FOW match and I'm currently ranked at place number 141 in FOW, when a tank/recon attack your infantry early wich is covered by your artilery and you have infantry to protect it you hold the advantage of having an indirect that cover your units, and if you have a mech that cover your artilery it's even better because your opponent will think twice before going for the artilery and in the end you'll deal more damage.
Is it really Mangs learning from the top players or is it that com towers ruin things in AWBW? Nah just kidding tanks really are that good even in AW2. But com towers do screw things up. An Infantry and a Tank can't remove a Mech from city in AW2, although the Mech will be so weakened the Tank will usually not take damage even if the attacker is Sami. This can buy a critical turn for the defender, maybe move the Mech away and send in a Tank of his own. In AWBW, towers means that most luck rolls will kill the Mech.
@@alex_zetsu Well they add two com tower because if you are losing the match and the ennemy have 2 com tower but want to turtle you'll have to face an ennemy that deal +20 more damage, so that's the end. So in AWBW you have as an objectif to secure at least a com tower and to defend it, dealing +0% damage while your opponent deal +20% in a tank versus tank matchup at 100/100 100/100 without com towers means that even if you have the first strike you'll probably lose the battle 1vs1. The thing in AWBW is that you can't really cover all your territory so knowing that you have to at least defend your com tower and HQ imply that the ennemy will attack there, depending on the map in an official map it's an important intel and I've won matches just by knowing this and planning accordingly.
@@DarkOrderSolDjango Com towers just screw things up by killing certain tactics that were viable in AW2 and "ending turtling" isn't a good reason since the guy ahead can often pull a win anyways. it's difficult to overpower a 6 property lead with 100/100 units. "People like com towers" can be a good reason to include them, but I still don't like them.
Carrier next please! As a Days of Ruin player, I honestly knew nothing about carriers from Dual Strike / AWBW. Then I discovered that they are the best anti-air unit in the game (besides maybe Fighters).
Another great video! I liked the little in depth strat showcase you did here too. I mean sure this may seem like total basics to most, but even to those veterans; reinforcing it in your mind helps you make sound decisions more often :)
The reason to start with a tank instead of a recon has nothing to do with how much they deal to infantry. In the early game, you'll have a lot of vision already thanks to your infantry. But if you build a recon, you'll be delaying your first tanks, and recons get demolished by tanks. Once the initial infantry start to die off, it makes sense to build some recon to have more stable vision. Any sooner and you're just building a "bad tank".
In the test of using 4 tanks to attack 1 medium tank on roads, the damage value the tanks did is 12,800 (since they reduced the medium tank to 2 hp) while the combined damage value the tanks take in return is 11,200 (700 x 16 hp lost). So, the tanks reduced the opponents value slightly more than the damage they took, which is cost effective for the attacker in terms of total unit value. However, as you mentioned in the video, one unit worth 16,000 is still standing after being attacked by four units that required a total of 28,000 to deploy, which is cost effective for the defender in terms of effectively using units. Yet, the scenario where 4 tanks get to attack 1 medium tank on roads is not likely and the slight value lead may not happen if the medium tank is on defensive terrain or if the attacker is a CO with reduced power or luck. But when the 4 tanks attack the neotank, they take 16,800 (700 x 24 total hp lost) worth of damage and they deal 15,400 (neotank to 3 hp) worth of damage. This scenario is not cost effective for the attack but remains to be cost effective for the defender. And then against megatanks--unit cost wise it is 28,000 vs 28,000, but the high power of the megatank will one shot them all upon counter.
Tanks are still pretty much the same in DoR as they are in other games. And considering how many other units got major changes made to them in that game, it really speaks to how well-made the tank is as a unit!
neotanks are more so a unit to speed up the late game. Their higher movement, ammo/fuel and firepower means if you have an overwhelming advantage they can help you take out the opponent quicker. In single player I really like that they exist as often that phase is longer than all the others as you very slowly have to grind through the waves of units that pose absolutely no threat to you.
I love tanks, even when playing Grit. They can't take a single solid hit from most things, and throw back some damage to finish the fight after the artillery fires. That said, a very different way to play AW2 is ground only tankless. It changes so much if all players can't deploy standard tanks. (And land only, no tanks at all matches are weird too.)
2+ tanks bearing down on another tank on a property can be super dangerous, I quickly recognized this last night when I took on a League Jake mirror match on AWBW that I ultimately won on resignation 3 turns after the moment in question Map was Hellfire MK IV, we were fighting a ton over the corners where I had grabbed and held control of both airports for a little while (neither of us were really trying for the middle lul) up until my Day 13 rolled around and I had _5_ tanks and a couple AAs - all perfect except for one heavily damaged AA - just about ready to trash a B copter and tank I had by the southwest airport Immediately I was thinking "TACTICAL RETREAT AAAAA" - Took out the damaged AA with the copter, moved my tank into the chokepoint and covered it with a T copter, and tried to think of a counter _pronto_ Rockets didn't have the response time, and holing up a copter on the airport just was gonna get it shot back down, so I went with the best thing I could afford - a Md Tank The mere presence of a Md Tank can be super imposing especially with its stopping power, and with it I was quickly taking back control of the area; I probably was gonna lose that airport for a bit if the match went on for a few more turns as he was starting on capturing it, but I was primed to interrupt/cover it back up, and I was pushing solidly on the northeast front too so I think the battle was firmly decided? Who knows lul ... -have you ever considered commentating viewer matches?-
All excellent points and a very fine display of more intricate strategy in terms of relying on baiting with a defensive formation, but I'm gonna embrace Monkey Brain a bit and say Kanbei Tank spam go BRRRRR.
Powerful and useful in early to mid game, and admittedly can still roll in late game. Is amongst the most cost effective, just enough vision to do minor scouts, powerful enough to punch through most units, resistent enough to hold some lines and cheap enough to deploy at respectable qualities. Pretty much a Jack-Of-All-Stats, only countered by Battleships, air units and more powerful variations of tanks. And Mechs as well, although this one depends on who punches first.
I really love these, Mangs. They're great for newcomers like myself, and I've been suggesting them to my little brother so we can do hot seat vs. matches. Can we get Battlecopters next?
Just in case people weren't paying attention at 11:25 tanks do 70 percent base damage against artillery and 85 percent base damage to rockets. That's why he was talking about always hitting a rocket with a tank, but think about whether or not to hit artillery. He didn't outright say it, so I thought id point it out. Love the series. Binging now.
7:20 This is a cost effective trade. 4 tanks with total damage equaling 11,200 funds against a remaining 2HP MDTank (3,200 funds). 16,000 (full hp mdtank) - 11,200 = 4,800. This engagement has a 1,600 funds advantage in favor of the tanks (in isolation).
Mangs I don't know how useful this intel is to you, but I've heard (from Ephraim I believe) that there IS one major difference with Dual Strikes (and I'm assuming DOR too) in that different units charge their CO's power meter differently once destroyed. Apparently, in the DS game, killing a Recon or a Mech automatically grants a power star, regardless of cost.
Worth noting that firepower bonus determines if you can 2 shot a tank on cities. 0 bonus means you are pretty much not going to finish off that tank. +10 means you have a chance to. +20 means you are going to 2 shot the tank. This is important so that your enemy won't withdraw that tank and use that city to launch a counterattack with tanks (especially if it is Kindle).
For future videos, I can see Grit doing Rockets and Artillery, Hachi doing Medium tanks, since his ability to bring out Medium tanks so early is horrifying, Lash doing Neotanks since she invented them, Kanbei doing battleships, just for the irony of Mangs always talking about how insanely pricey Kanbei Battleships are, Jess doing Megatanks, since she offsets their ammo issues, and Flak doing the Cruiser, since both Flak and Cruisers are memes for being bad
@@xdragend Whoops, you're right, I guess I was bound to get one wrong. Maybe Flak can do battleships then, since Flak's "lake battleships" are also a meme
The fact the Tank can fight any ground unit unless it's a Medium, Neo, or Megatank makes it a very versatile unit. If the CO in question is Kanbei or Sturm, they can even use them to fight Medium Tanks given their vastly improved armor and firepower. Two Kanbei Tanks can effectively trade with a Medium Tank provided they both strike first (preferably from defensive terrain) and the Medium is not on a city/base.
technically the tank vs md tank is cost effective in the truest sense (still not a good idea) in total there was *about* 8 grand of damage to all the tanks, but about 14ish grand to the medium tank HAVING SAID THAT, this was the absolute best case scenario and is in no way battlefield reasonable
You'll be surprised how often you can get a chance to attack a Medium tank with 3 Tanks in fog of war, although that's still not a good idea. So it's only one unit away from "the absolute best case scenario." Attacking with 4 or even 3 Mechs would be lovely, but how often does that happen? Attacking with 2 Mechs and a Tank is something I've seen. It's not common by a far shot, but it happens now and then and far more often than it does with Neotanks. Should you attack with 3 Tanks? No. With 2 mechs and a tank? If terrain is favorable, I'd say yes. If Medium tank is on roads, the Mech can attack from (doesn't even need to be yours) and the tank can attack from anywhere but roads, I'd go for it. Kind of odd how 4 tanks, not likely and not worth it, 4 mechs, worth it and not nearly reasonable, but something inbetween can be reasonable and happens now and then. At least 3 times I got this when one of the Mechs crossed a river to get in position.
It's actually cost effective to fight tanks vs medium tanks. In the demonstrated fight tanks lost around 11200 credits of value, whereas the MD tank lost 12800. But still its not recommended to fight tanks vs MD tanks of course
The fact that Tanks do more damage to infantry isn't why I often open up with one instead of a Recon. If my opponent built a tank and promised to only move it 1 square per turn until I get 3 first strikes with a Recon or Tank or until he destroys one of mine, then I'll happily build a Recon and a Mech. If I build that in game where both sides try to win, my Recon is often going to end up being attacked by a Tank. Well that and at least 3 times I built an early Mech and Recon when he built an early Artillery instead of a tank and those 3 times I did quite well and got to attack his Artillery with my Recon. But the obvious problem with opening up Recon is not that Tanks do better against Infantry, but because Tanks do well against Recons.
That was really interesting ! Say, do you intend to do a tutorial about injured units ? I won't be surprised if a lot of player actualy have a poor utilization of injured units, alwayts sending them in suicide mission or wasting cities spot to repare them. I know I do.
what i do most of the time with tanks is that i don't use all it's movement spaces, since they are pretty fast already, cutting 1 or 2 spaces off of it in exchage of staying in range of backup is really good, and most of the time all of them can guard each other.
that'd be too OP, it would have to consume lots of stars or just spawn from production tiles instead of cities, dunno how would call it though, probably "just in time production" (japanese capitalist) "arsenal of democracy" (american capitalist) iron wave or stormed production (russian)
To me, the important take-away with using tanks correctly is not to think of them as individual units. You have to consider them all as a group, moving and positioning them accordingly. In effect, Tanks are solider ants, basically. To be effective, they all need to be coordinated to achieve the larger goal, up to and including sacrificing them when necessary. And by extension, Medium Tanks and Neotanks would play into that analogy too, as there are even bigger solider ants in the colonies of some species.
Will probably like to see something like a unit triangle like the tank vs anti air vs battle copters, they sort of reminds me of the weapon triangle concept from FE series.
another reason why tank is so strong is because in the supposed rock-paper-scissor relation between tank- B-copter - A-Air, B copter isnt a hard counter of tank (it kinda does similar damage compared to a tank agaisnt another tank, but take little to nothing in return and B copter is more expensive) where A-Air is the best counter to B-copter and tank being also one of the better counter to A-Air
I'd argue the Battlecoptor is a great counter to the Tank. It will nearly always get the first strike and the tank becomes so weak that when it attacks Infantry on cities, it will often leave the infantry with 9 HP and take more damage in return. You don't need to spam Battlecoptors, if you have 3 of them and 3 Tanks supporting your infantry and your opponent has 9 tanks supporting his infantry, you'll come out ahead. If he has anti-air, just keeping a single Battlecoptor can deter him from getting too aggressive, just like a Tank guarding a Tank, albeit more expensive. But that 2000 is the price you pay so that it has the flexibility to go from "more expensive tank" to getting some good shots off to make it earn back its value. The Battlecotpor also takes on Medium tanks well. Even a Drake Battlecoptor can attack a Lash Medium Tank on a city. If it's not Lash's city, Battlecoptor will come out ahead. If it's her city and she attacks the next turn and Drake attacks again, the Battlecoptor will at least earn back it's value even if it doesn't come out ahead. So if Battlecoptors are that descent against even Lash Medium Tanks in cities, surely they must be good against Tanks.
@@alex_zetsu a counter yeah, a "great" counter not really. battlecopter can sure get the first strike but can't engage/throw away a B copter for a tank . the reason is because it's more expensive and doesnt deal more damage agaisnt tank than another tank attacking it. if the enemy spam tank, you can't respond with a lot of B copter which is a "great counter" to a tank according to you. you either respond with tank spam (which is common) or you respond by tech up to md tank or neotank. enemy spam A-Air ? build a lot of tank to make great cost effective engagement enemy spam B copter ? build a few A-Air can shut them down completely enemy spam tank ? you cannot build a lot of "great counter" B copter other example of real great counter : A-Air you will gladly sacrifice it for a B copter or a Bomber cruiser you can throw it for sub fighter you would glady also throw for bomber or stealth fighter (you don't want to sacrifice it for a B copter, kinda similar situation to B copter vs tank) tank or any speedy vehicle you can sacrifice it for rocket Any great counter you are glad to sacrifice it to counter unit they are supposed to counter. B copter cannot do that agaisnt tank if A-Air, his worst counter is in range Also a great counter is supposed to destroy or cripple the unit he should counter, which B copter does poorly (for a counter standard) There's a video of excelblem (that mangs recognize it as a great player) that explain how the AW triangle (tank B copter and A-Air) isnt excatly a triangle and why tank spam is meta until the economy allow to buld MD tank confortably or better
@@bienhy5120 "can't engage/throw away a B copter for a tank" true but you're not reallly throwing it away unless there is an AA nearby since tanks can't do much damage to them even on the first strike. But then again attacking a tank with a tank when a Mech is guarding is has the same problem.
@@alex_zetsu it doesnt mean B copter is a "great" counter to tank. in std, if you build a B copter, any opponent will build an A-Air after that so it for 1K less, you can lockdown a unit, however there are map where B copter could become strong forcing enemy to build multiple A-Air to waste their fund, but it's not a great counter to tank. if FoW, yeah B copter could have a chance to strike a tank without being punished but it could be a gamble since enemy can build A-Air but yeah they get a shot or 2 depending the base location which is decent but it has to be more careful about the following shot and so on. it can counter 1 or 2 tank (or even 0 if the tank is stationned in his property) but the counter is short lived once tank come in a high number (like 5+ tank) and building more B copter isnt a good response. as for tank vs tank guarded by mech, sure on his own it's a not a good idea but usually when you push, you do with multiple tank guarding each other. and unlike B copter that get oneshot by A-Air, tank doesnt get oneshot by anything costing less than 15K and it could be hard to get high value when facing them (only mech and arty could do cost effecive damage but their poor action range can make it easier for the tank to play around them, and ofc tank can do agaisnt another tank). If B copter would do more dmg than 55% (on road, but it's even lower on city or forest) then yeah I can agree copter could potentially be better counter than a tank (the price and oneshot from A-Air are still an issue) but I generally prefer tank agaisnt tank that do the exact same damage but cost 2K less so I can use it elsewhere. If I have to use a B copter, it's either if the map favor them so much (lot of mountain/river to juke enemy A-Air or forcing them to build multiple A-Air for a single B copter) or if a CO is specialized on them (mostly sensei, eagle sometime but not to a lesser extend, grimm work too since B copter doesnt care about defense).
`11:35 What if there's two Rockets nearby, and destroying them gives your opponent JUST ENOUGH charge to do an Enhanced Vision and take out one of your units?
the fact that its 1000 cheaper then the AA vehicle means its a vehicle that while not as destructive as such, its multipurpose nature makes up for that...
Anti-air aren‘t actually using machine guns, that‘s why they do relatively well against tanks and other vehicles. Realistically they would be using some kids of auto-cannon (so, shells, not bullets) or maybe rockets. But they kinda look like auto-cannons tbh.
Hey Mangs, I thought of a thing. You suggest that the tank should always take the engagement against the missile, because the missile is worth so much more that it's okay to risk the tank. But then you also note that players rarely build missiles because they're rarely worth the cost. Doesn't the second observation contradict the first? Just because your opponent threw his 12k down the well doesn't mean you should hasten to dangle your 7k in after it. That's just thinking like a Colin main. Or is the assumption that the most common reason why a player builds missiles because he correctly anticipates that missiles will be unusually useful during the match?
My strategy is typically moving around to avoid rockets and artillery then when I can move in to take down the rockets I move in within the blind spot and destroy it, otherwise you will lose your forces pretty quick if you don’t watch out for rocket units
It's the counter to DoR's War Tanks. Similar to artillery but can perform both a direct attack or indirect attack up to 3 spaces away. They obviously do extra damage to tanks & can counter any direct attacks, but other vehicles such as recon or mech & infantry can do some serious damage to them. They make a great barricade in chokepoints vs Mid or War Tanks. They're a bit slow on movement though.
I think you should cover the Anti-Tank from DoR. I don't remember if tanks were changed in that game, but they clearly are a very strong unit until stronger tanks can come out, so I believe the anti-tank was built to be a counter specifically to tanks, capable of attacking in melee and at range. Curious on your analysis of that unit.
It's the counter to DoR's War Tanks. Similar to artillery but can perform both a direct attack or indirect attack up to 3 spaces away. They obviously do extra damage to tanks & can counter any direct attacks, but other vehicles such as recon or mech & infantry can do some serious damage to them. They make a great barricade in chokepoints vs Mid or War Tanks. They're a bit slow on movement though.
I just finished watching this because I accidentally skipped it but I feel a bit bad for Mang's example with the real PvP battle simulation because while I definitely know what he was trying to do in the example, I do say that a part of such which by that I mean the 'first strikes sometimes not winning' has a little bit of a thing to it in which while understandable for why it probably would happen a lot, the blue team moving their tanks like that feel reckless to me for how they moved in their tanks in such a way because due to such allowed the red tanks get the drop on the second blue tank while slowing down the one who attacked. If the blue team did something similar with guarding their tank except guarding the one who initiated the battle, then unless something reveals the blue tanks in some way, it would either just become a weird ineffective stalemate or the red team would come rush down the offensive blue tank, to which both terrain and luck rolls can determine who actually became the victor with the other side having heavier casualties than the original. I only ran a small teat with this kind of terrain setup and the blue team moving to guard instead of rushing and the red team moving in instead ended with the blue team victorious with a 1 HP tank (thus the luck coming into play). Hence I do feel like it's more dependent on how someone plays, how careful they play, and the luck scale along with who moves their forces in.
Even if you don't place the tank on a city. The enemy tank might have attacked the inf. In that case you still get yout first strike on the tank as orange. really depends on how blue plays his turns
Mmm, you should have included some ships and copters for the tank to fire upon, if only for completion's sake. And a Battle Copter to fire on your tank, for the same reason.
The only change I'd want to suggest for tanks is to introduce waterborne versions of these units, with similar price points, like gunboats, corvettes, or frigates (though nothing like the one-shot gunboats from Days of Ruin please).😜 Otherwise, I believe the tanks are fine enough as is.
@@MythicalPhoenixHeart I also wouldn't mind introducing hover tanks that could travel through land or water equally fast (specifically the kind seen in sci-fi settings like Star Wars, using fictional technologies like repulsor lifts for example, instead of modern-day hovercraft, which would have trouble navigating across the kind of rough terrain that ordinary tanks could traverse easily enough), with statistics similar to light tanks, yet also a bit more expensive (with a cost of around, say, 9000). Plotwise, I'd imagine that Black Hole, or some other alien factions like White Nova, Pink Nebula, or Teal Galaxy, would be the ones to field them 1st, with the good guy factions having to capture a lab in order to reverse-engineer and produce them themselves (like what had already happened with Black Hole's Neo Tanks, Black Bombs, Black Boats, and Pipe Runners).
@@ShadowWolfTJC I love the concept of it and it can be produced by factories or Port or both. And if it is produced by ports it can traverse quickly to the battlefield and help with taking down Submarine, Vehicles and Infantry at 65%, 60% and 99% respectively for each and introduction of alien nation would be awesome when advance wars reboot camp sells well and it greenlit for more franchise ideas especially White Nova
@@MythicalPhoenixHeart Speaking of additional alien factions, here's a plot idea: What if Wars World found itself caught in the crossfire of some interstellar war between various alien factions, like in the various proxy wars during the Cold War, such as the Wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and the Middle East, where various smaller nations fought on behalf of various stronger great and super powers like the United States, Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, European Union, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.? What if the plot of said game were to rally the nations of Wars World together to free Wars World from the alien factions' destructive proxy wars, and establish themselves as a neutral power in interstellar affairs (kinda like with Vietnam and Afghanistan)?
@@ShadowWolfTJC Cool Idea, it would be nice to see other countries be represented as faction of other established countries. Since this is a new plot will the CO work like the first two games, follow dual strike or Days of Ruin, or maybe a new concept to use a mixture of old and new mechanics that they can explore?
I've noticed that more people are making tanks early now but they are also being very reckless or overly aggressive early on. Just because you're making tanks instead of recons doesn't mean they should acting like recons. I have seen people use them to attack infantry early on and that can cost you the game. If you're using a tank to attack infantry, you're throwing a 7000 unit into the opponents side of the map to only delay a capture for one turn. You just threw your tank away. I also had some games where I threw my opponent off because I made nothing by infantry and bought a M Tank first with all their tanks on my side of the map before either of us get 16000 funds a day. Those tanks are stuck taking bad engagements with infantry blocking their retreat while the M Tank goes Michael Myers on them because they can't afford a M Tank and it's too far to do anything about it. DON'T BE RECKLESS WITH YOUR TANKS; if you take care of them, they'll take care of you.
Hey Mangs can you make a video that covers everything about AWBW? I feel like a lot of people don't even know about its existance or don't know how the games are played or how the times work, etc.
If infantry are the backbone of an army, tanks are its muscle
If Infantry are the Pawns, Tanks are the Rooks or Knights.
well said
No. Tanks are a supporting tool for the infantry.
But which unit is the appendix?
When you think about it, everything is to protect infantry so they can cap.
The true generalist Unit of Advance Wars.
If unsure, build another tank. Very wise choice.
Mangs: What unit do you want to see next?
Me: (sees the carrier match in the recommend)
Carrier
Mangs: No
And he's right. Who even builds a carrier except in double income maps. In AW by web or AW Dual Strike, carriers serve no function. It's a bad APC for air units and a missile combined for slightly more than a battleship. And battleships are actually useful, but bad.
@@lagg1e Nice diatribe, but he started this series with Missiles, a unit that is just as terrible.
I LOVE the Carrier I dont care what Mangs says I love that Unit and hate how it was not in the original Advance wars 1 and 2. We get cruisers for choppers but not Carrier for fighters and bombers? da fuq!
@@ryanadams0922 its bad unless if its dor carrier its actually usable eith the planes
@@CaptainDCap atleast missle is cheaper than the carrier
18:53 Mangs just demonstrates the importance of scouting accidentally but he's in a Tank video and not the Recon video!
Tanks really are the bread and butter unit (besides infantry). While they ostensibly lose to mechs, artillery and copters at about their price point, each one of those options has a big weakness. Mechs are too slow and need numbers to fight tanks. Artillery are slow and only really hold ground defensively. Copters are more expensive and can be shut out by a cheaper suplemental unit. The most ridiculous thing is how long tank move is compared to most other units. Their mobility is largely screwed if the maps are focused on one big choke point, which is where artillery will be most able to contest them, but in open maps they can just flank around artillery and mech forces.
If your mechs have plenty of mountains to play on, then mechs are superior to tanks.
@@theedwardian Sure, that just requires a map basically designed to favor mech spam. Most competitive maps have mountains but they are scattered about and mechs won't be able to get to a mountain before getting engaged by something else.
The tank units of the Advance Wars games are great for their demonstration and encapsulation of the aesthetics and style of the armies which they operate in, with each design actually reflecting a famous real-work tank/armored vehicle:
Orange Star/Rubinelle: American Bradley Fighting Vehicle/M551 Sheridan Light Tank Hybrid
Blue Moon/Lazuria/IDS: Soviet T-34 Main Battle Tank
Green Earth: German Panzer 3/Jagdpanzer [Hunting Tank] Hybrid
Yellow Comet: Japanese Type 89 I-Go with elements of the French Renault FT design (most notably the large forward tread wheel that tapers towards the rear of the vehicle)
What about Black hole?
Conceptual/futuristic designs?
@@TheGosgosh thats all their stuff.
you could say this about any unit
@@TheGosgosh It resembles a futuristic T-34 with its turret configuration.
@@TheGosgosh
Black Hole tanks:
Brick on wheels, with a fire hydrant where a turret would normally be.
As Flak said: "Tanks are the best and they move far. Tanks are the best"
Thank you for teaching us how to not only calculate cost effective engagements but how to utilize units strategically. This is going to really come in handy in AWBW and when AW Reboot comes out, since I doubt they will change units very much.
Love to see B Copters next :)
A fellow Flak disciple I see
@@amiasg9305 oh no, I just remember that one quote lol
Flak is smarter than Lash, he just plays dumb.
@@USDebtCrisis
If we get voice acting in Re-Boot Camp, I really hope he gets a Goofy-but-funny voice (like heavy from TF2, or a "school bully" voice) and not just a generic "dumb" voice.
Flak: Even an unmoving clock gets the hour correct twice per day.
There are some changes to tanks in Days of Ruin.
The biggest change is the reduction in starting/maximum ammunition supply from 9 ammo to 6 ammo.
However this is a change that affects the vast majority of units, with most units being reduced from carrying 9 ammo to 6, and 6 to 5 for rockets.
This appears to have been a balancing change to make resupply from properties or the need for APCs/Rigs greater.
Admittedly also makes sense for Days of Ruin seeing as it takes place in a post apocalyptic world. There would be less ammo to go around, let alone tank shells and rockets.
It also plays well into the rest of DoR's meta, especially with consideration to experience for units, and Tanks are also less durable in DoR then elsewhere in the series.
@@LeoMidori Tanks may be less durable, but so are medium tanks by a much larger amount. I think tanks are actually much stronger in DoR because they can take a lot more trades.
@@InternetMonster1 I only partially agree since the cost of Medium Tanks and War Tanks both are quite a bit lower as well as their durability being nudged down as a result, but you're right in that Tanks do have a fighting chance against Mediums.
DoR got so many things right about unit rebalancing.
It's just a shame they got every single other thing wrong.
13:28 I like it how you put Max's indirect units close to the enemy units so he can shoot them within their range, as if Max has his CO Power activated.
I'd like to see a series explaining how to use each CO
For a lot of them, he would probably need to consult pro players to get an actually good idea of how to use them optimally.
His CO Tier lists are good overviews about their strengths and weaknesses, though I'd also love an in-depth video about each CO.
YES
Sensei's video would be like, 7 second long.
"Spam his little power. Spam mechs. GG."
Awesome idea. He could even analyze each CO matchup.
I can't help but feel like the tank v tank analysis at the end should have been a supplemental video because there's a very important omission to the main analysis, and that is against Battlecopters. You mentioned the ship matchup as not much damage and not very likely, and tank v plane is a non starter as the tank can't shoot back, but the tank v copter fight feels like it should happen reasonably often. I know you're fighting unit deployment limits on these sorts of videos on units with huge versatility in targets, which is why I feel that that situation analysis should have been it's own thing in a separate video.
Great series you're doing, though. Looking forward to the rest of it.
Hello, and welcome to another of my comments about what unit of the four AW nations are based upon.
OS tanks are M2 Bradley IFVs without TOWs and the autocannon.
BM tanks are T-34-85s because of the cylindrical containers on the sides.
YC tanks are Renault FTs or Type 89 Japanese medium tank.
GE tanks are mini Sturm Tigers or Jagdpanzer series.
We don't care about Black Hole units.
Weirdly, in SFW, Orange Star has the Soviet tanks, I think, but the rest look like American-made. Haven't played SFW for a very long time.
Did red star used to be more russia instead of america?
@@alexlee4154 Nah, just different name from what I can remember. They changed it into Orange Star.
I believe YC's tanks are type 89s, not renaults.
"The perfect unit" is right. It's not just the stats, it's the way the tank fits into the game- it's the gold standard of unit design in Advance Wars.
Flexibility and cheap cost make it a reliable workhorse in most any match, but its role is clearly defined and doesn't trample on other units' niches. Can form a strong core of an army, or supplement a different core just as easily. Equally satisfying to use and fight against. Rewards players who demonstrate good fundamentals, but doesn't punish mistakes or bad play too harshly.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
As Flak says in the Tutorial, Tanks are the best.
No change needed. They really do well to keep the fight going until both players have a good economy and can deploy the good stuff like bombers and neotanks. It is incredibly important to understand positioning with tanks and when the can and cannot take fights.
Whaaaaaaat? Flak Kong is correct with something?
Neo-tanks are more so lategame units. When you have a substantial income superiority they can be nice to finish your opponent off more quickly. That is except for Colin where they really are the best unit to hold out for. It's how I usually play him. Play defense and pocket the extra money from gold rush until you can build a whole bunch of neo-tanks that just can't be stopped.
But neo-tanks are a unit to use to leverage a superiority in income.
Also against the CPU they are nice as the CPU doesn't surrender when it's hopeless. Very often grinding through the waves of fodder units is more than half the battle which is something I do still hope they'll fix in the remake.
@@TheGosgosh To be fair, a horde of Tanks are extremely difficult to counter without air units, indirect fire, or equal numbers of Tanks of your own.
I just wanted to say that the advice to cover your units by overlapping their movement range is one of the most useful pieces of advice I've seen for advance wars. It ended my losing streak on awbw.
Why didn't you show how much damage a bomber and a battle-copter can do to a tank?
Hey, you forgot to mention that air units like battle copters and bombers can also be a good counter to tanks depending on the map.
I think Bombers where an intentional omission, due to the huge price difference between them. If you're building Bombers for the express purpose of countering Tanks, both you and your opponent are doing something wrong because that game should already be over. You build Bombers for Medium Tanks and Neotanks, maybe Battleships if any exist.
I very much agree, though, Battlecopters not being mentioned at all in the analysis is kind of criminal negligence. Battlecopters are pretty much the go-to counter for Tanks on any map with access to an Airport. They only cost 2000 more, have comparable mobility, and fair equally well against Infantry, Mech, and Recon. Only real difference is Battlecopters will need APC support, where as Tanks generally don't. I suppose Airport vs Base availability is also relevant.
I love how the tank is so tiny but looks so hecking cute and valid
@Wiegraf Just zoomer babble, no need to concern yourself.
@@DraconisMarchVII damn i hope that when im old im not as bitter
@@Joaking91 Casual dismission = bitterness? Whatever makes you feel better I guess.
@@DraconisMarchVII more like bitterness leading to unprompted dismission
@@Joaking91 You are committing colossal protection. Could it be that you feel personally slighted?
I'm going to weigh in with some of my thoughts that are tangentially related to what I said about Mechs. i know I said Mangs doesn't need to show every unit matchup and should just show the highlights, but for tanks, unlike say Recons or AA, I think just about every ground engagement actually is kind of relevant.
A funny thing is that 4 tanks ganging up on a Medium tank has almost the same result as 4 Mechs doing it, but it's completely not worth it for the tanks thanks to their cost. on the other hand, 4 mechs getting the strike on a Medium tank on the roads is a tad unlikely since unlike tanks, they move slowly. Getting 2 Mechs and a Tank to strike first isn't the most common thing ever, but I've done it a few times thanks to the fact that they don't move as fast as tanks. Is this worth it? I talked about this in a comment on the mechs video. Well, if the medium tank is on the road and one Mech can strike from a city, I'd say go for it. The hardest counterattack will be on the unit that strikes first and if you do it with a Mech on a city, it will take less damage. The second attack should be from the other Mech, hopefully from defensive terrain but even from roads is fine. By the time you make the third attack with your Tank, a lot of the bite of the medium tank is gone, so I'd say this is worth it if your Tank can strike from plains or better and your Mech can strike from a city, even an enemy city. I'm assuming there aren't any enemies "guarding" the Medium tank.
Two tanks can beat a tank on a city yes. If the defender has a second tank, he can just drive up to the city and get the first strike on the attacker's tank. Funnily enough, there is a use for a Mech here since a Mech guarding the tank does exactly the same thing. So feel free to use a tank to bait out your opponent if your plodding Mech is close by.
more like tankentially
Attacking a tank on a city from roads is more common than you might think. With Medium Tanks, their slightly slower movement often means they will need to stick to roads. On almost all AW2 VS maps, most of the cities are connected with a road network and while almost every city has a plain (or 3) next to it, it takes can 2 more movement to get in place to attack from plains instead of roads when driving from one city to another. With Tanks this happens less often, but it does happen now and then, most often when you finish repairing a tank and send it off to the front. It seems than the map designs on AWBW make it more likely a Medium Tank is the one forced to attack a tank on a city form roads since Tanks nearly always have that last 2 movement ready. Or that might just be because people use 1 HP units as roadblocks instead of repairing them, so coming up just short hardly every happens.
I think a good addition to this series would be a short segment that lists some COs that are good or bad with the unit in question. Most of them would be pretty obvious (ex: Grit has great artillery, naval units are even worse on Eagle) but I think it would be good for beginners. Additionally, you could talk about common strategies you could use with the unit (like join-capping with infantry). Maybe make that another series called Unit Tactics/Strategies or CO Analysis? Either way, this is a really great series.
I'd have to disagree. Pure unit analysis and applied tactics is a fine topic for a video. And I would rather watch one video on Grit than hear that he is not the greatest at using direct ground units in separate videos for all three tanks, anti-air, recon, and so on.
Mangs did start discussing tactical uses for units, such as join capping. Which is more helpful than just seeing matchups and terrain being used.
@@GuardianTactician Towards the end of the post, I started leaning towards making the segments their own series.
And he did discuss tactics but I thinking of more advanced tactics and formations. Like this series would be the Intro to Units (101) to give people a basic rundown and what I have in mind would be the Unit Tactics (201) or Unit Formations (301) like how college classes work.
Aaaah, yes. The bread and butter of the ground army.
Loving this series so far. 😎👍
I want to see Battle Copters or Landers next.
Honestly, I want to see a map that actively encourages the use of a piperunner...
I’d like to see the Battle Copter next, followed by Anti-Air to finish off the main unit trifecta.
Tanks are a fundamental pillar of an army.
Now that you learned that top players in AWBW open tank 1st
you will demolish tomorrow we the scrubs
That's why I open up with an artilery in FOW match and I'm currently ranked at place number 141 in FOW, when a tank/recon attack your infantry early wich is covered by your artilery and you have infantry to protect it you hold the advantage of having an indirect that cover your units, and if you have a mech that cover your artilery it's even better because your opponent will think twice before going for the artilery and in the end you'll deal more damage.
Is it really Mangs learning from the top players or is it that com towers ruin things in AWBW?
Nah just kidding tanks really are that good even in AW2.
But com towers do screw things up. An Infantry and a Tank can't remove a Mech from city in AW2, although the Mech will be so weakened the Tank will usually not take damage even if the attacker is Sami. This can buy a critical turn for the defender, maybe move the Mech away and send in a Tank of his own. In AWBW, towers means that most luck rolls will kill the Mech.
@@alex_zetsu Well they add two com tower because if you are losing the match and the ennemy have 2 com tower but want to turtle you'll have to face an ennemy that deal +20 more damage, so that's the end. So in AWBW you have as an objectif to secure at least a com tower and to defend it, dealing +0% damage while your opponent deal +20% in a tank versus tank matchup at 100/100 100/100 without com towers means that even if you have the first strike you'll probably lose the battle 1vs1. The thing in AWBW is that you can't really cover all your territory so knowing that you have to at least defend your com tower and HQ imply that the ennemy will attack there, depending on the map in an official map it's an important intel and I've won matches just by knowing this and planning accordingly.
Lol
@@DarkOrderSolDjango Com towers just screw things up by killing certain tactics that were viable in AW2 and "ending turtling" isn't a good reason since the guy ahead can often pull a win anyways. it's difficult to overpower a 6 property lead with 100/100 units. "People like com towers" can be a good reason to include them, but I still don't like them.
Carrier next please!
As a Days of Ruin player, I honestly knew nothing about carriers from Dual Strike / AWBW. Then I discovered that they are the best anti-air unit in the game (besides maybe Fighters).
Another great video! I liked the little in depth strat showcase you did here too. I mean sure this may seem like total basics to most, but even to those veterans; reinforcing it in your mind helps you make sound decisions more often :)
The reason to start with a tank instead of a recon has nothing to do with how much they deal to infantry.
In the early game, you'll have a lot of vision already thanks to your infantry. But if you build a recon, you'll be delaying your first tanks, and recons get demolished by tanks.
Once the initial infantry start to die off, it makes sense to build some recon to have more stable vision. Any sooner and you're just building a "bad tank".
The most important piece of Advance Wars’ “weapon triangle.” (Tank, Battle Copter, Anti-Air.)
In the test of using 4 tanks to attack 1 medium tank on roads, the damage value the tanks did is 12,800 (since they reduced the medium tank to 2 hp) while the combined damage value the tanks take in return is 11,200 (700 x 16 hp lost). So, the tanks reduced the opponents value slightly more than the damage they took, which is cost effective for the attacker in terms of total unit value. However, as you mentioned in the video, one unit worth 16,000 is still standing after being attacked by four units that required a total of 28,000 to deploy, which is cost effective for the defender in terms of effectively using units. Yet, the scenario where 4 tanks get to attack 1 medium tank on roads is not likely and the slight value lead may not happen if the medium tank is on defensive terrain or if the attacker is a CO with reduced power or luck.
But when the 4 tanks attack the neotank, they take 16,800 (700 x 24 total hp lost) worth of damage and they deal 15,400 (neotank to 3 hp) worth of damage. This scenario is not cost effective for the attack but remains to be cost effective for the defender. And then against megatanks--unit cost wise it is 28,000 vs 28,000, but the high power of the megatank will one shot them all upon counter.
We now cover the future of warfare.
Also, carrier video when?
Tanks are still pretty much the same in DoR as they are in other games. And considering how many other units got major changes made to them in that game, it really speaks to how well-made the tank is as a unit!
neotanks are more so a unit to speed up the late game. Their higher movement, ammo/fuel and firepower means if you have an overwhelming advantage they can help you take out the opponent quicker. In single player I really like that they exist as often that phase is longer than all the others as you very slowly have to grind through the waves of units that pose absolutely no threat to you.
I love tanks, even when playing Grit. They can't take a single solid hit from most things, and throw back some damage to finish the fight after the artillery fires.
That said, a very different way to play AW2 is ground only tankless. It changes so much if all players can't deploy standard tanks. (And land only, no tanks at all matches are weird too.)
It is also depends on which CO your playing. Kanbei Tanks can take on Medium tanks in favorable engagements.
Tanks a lot for the video i’m just kidding this old joke is so bad
Still, it’s a good track record
2+ tanks bearing down on another tank on a property can be super dangerous, I quickly recognized this last night when I took on a League Jake mirror match on AWBW that I ultimately won on resignation 3 turns after the moment in question
Map was Hellfire MK IV, we were fighting a ton over the corners where I had grabbed and held control of both airports for a little while (neither of us were really trying for the middle lul) up until my Day 13 rolled around and I had _5_ tanks and a couple AAs - all perfect except for one heavily damaged AA - just about ready to trash a B copter and tank I had by the southwest airport
Immediately I was thinking "TACTICAL RETREAT AAAAA" - Took out the damaged AA with the copter, moved my tank into the chokepoint and covered it with a T copter, and tried to think of a counter _pronto_
Rockets didn't have the response time, and holing up a copter on the airport just was gonna get it shot back down, so I went with the best thing I could afford - a Md Tank
The mere presence of a Md Tank can be super imposing especially with its stopping power, and with it I was quickly taking back control of the area; I probably was gonna lose that airport for a bit if the match went on for a few more turns as he was starting on capturing it, but I was primed to interrupt/cover it back up, and I was pushing solidly on the northeast front too so I think the battle was firmly decided? Who knows lul
... -have you ever considered commentating viewer matches?-
All excellent points and a very fine display of more intricate strategy in terms of relying on baiting with a defensive formation, but I'm gonna embrace Monkey Brain a bit and say Kanbei Tank spam go BRRRRR.
First strikes ARE everything.
Blue had one first strike
Red had two, Red won
I think in this particular instance mangs meant that the side that attacks first doesn't always win, and not the First strike mechanic.
@@sirkana Yeah, first strike and first to charge in are different things
@@sirkanaYes, this is what I meant.
Powerful and useful in early to mid game, and admittedly can still roll in late game. Is amongst the most cost effective, just enough vision to do minor scouts, powerful enough to punch through most units, resistent enough to hold some lines and cheap enough to deploy at respectable qualities.
Pretty much a Jack-Of-All-Stats, only countered by Battleships, air units and more powerful variations of tanks. And Mechs as well, although this one depends on who punches first.
Days of ruin be like "Yeah that tank can do decent damage to Medium and War tanks cause why not"
I really love these, Mangs. They're great for newcomers like myself, and I've been suggesting them to my little brother so we can do hot seat vs. matches. Can we get Battlecopters next?
Man I suck at this game but just keep playing it, you are making me a better gamer though for sure
I am learning so much from these videos, thank you
Just in case people weren't paying attention at 11:25 tanks do 70 percent base damage against artillery and 85 percent base damage to rockets. That's why he was talking about always hitting a rocket with a tank, but think about whether or not to hit artillery. He didn't outright say it, so I thought id point it out. Love the series. Binging now.
Those are some weird looking mechs.
7:20 This is a cost effective trade. 4 tanks with total damage equaling 11,200 funds against a remaining 2HP MDTank (3,200 funds). 16,000 (full hp mdtank) - 11,200 = 4,800. This engagement has a 1,600 funds advantage in favor of the tanks (in isolation).
Tank you for this video Mangs. It was very helpful.
Mangs I don't know how useful this intel is to you, but I've heard (from Ephraim I believe) that there IS one major difference with Dual Strikes (and I'm assuming DOR too) in that different units charge their CO's power meter differently once destroyed. Apparently, in the DS game, killing a Recon or a Mech automatically grants a power star, regardless of cost.
Worth noting that firepower bonus determines if you can 2 shot a tank on cities. 0 bonus means you are pretty much not going to finish off that tank. +10 means you have a chance to. +20 means you are going to 2 shot the tank. This is important so that your enemy won't withdraw that tank and use that city to launch a counterattack with tanks (especially if it is Kindle).
For future videos, I can see Grit doing Rockets and Artillery, Hachi doing Medium tanks, since his ability to bring out Medium tanks so early is horrifying, Lash doing Neotanks since she invented them, Kanbei doing battleships, just for the irony of Mangs always talking about how insanely pricey Kanbei Battleships are, Jess doing Megatanks, since she offsets their ammo issues, and Flak doing the Cruiser, since both Flak and Cruisers are memes for being bad
Didn't he already do a video about the Crusier
@@xdragend Whoops, you're right, I guess I was bound to get one wrong. Maybe Flak can do battleships then, since Flak's "lake battleships" are also a meme
@@ianleather5699 Flak has to do the indirect bombers
As for the Megatanks, it's likely that Jess and/or Javier invented those, making either one (or both) being the COs in their demonstration.
@@KurisuBlaze Yep! My other reason for wanting to let Jess be the one to showcase them, if he ever gets to DS units
The fact the Tank can fight any ground unit unless it's a Medium, Neo, or Megatank makes it a very versatile unit. If the CO in question is Kanbei or Sturm, they can even use them to fight Medium Tanks given their vastly improved armor and firepower. Two Kanbei Tanks can effectively trade with a Medium Tank provided they both strike first (preferably from defensive terrain) and the Medium is not on a city/base.
Here we go again, love it!!
I'd say Tanks and AA should have their costs swapped. 8k for a Tank, 7k for an AA.
technically the tank vs md tank is cost effective in the truest sense (still not a good idea)
in total there was *about* 8 grand of damage to all the tanks, but about 14ish grand to the medium tank
HAVING SAID THAT, this was the absolute best case scenario and is in no way battlefield reasonable
Ive used it as Max. It worked. Demolished 2 enemy mds and they resigned
You'll be surprised how often you can get a chance to attack a Medium tank with 3 Tanks in fog of war, although that's still not a good idea. So it's only one unit away from "the absolute best case scenario." Attacking with 4 or even 3 Mechs would be lovely, but how often does that happen? Attacking with 2 Mechs and a Tank is something I've seen. It's not common by a far shot, but it happens now and then and far more often than it does with Neotanks. Should you attack with 3 Tanks? No. With 2 mechs and a tank? If terrain is favorable, I'd say yes. If Medium tank is on roads, the Mech can attack from (doesn't even need to be yours) and the tank can attack from anywhere but roads, I'd go for it. Kind of odd how 4 tanks, not likely and not worth it, 4 mechs, worth it and not nearly reasonable, but something inbetween can be reasonable and happens now and then. At least 3 times I got this when one of the Mechs crossed a river to get in position.
It's actually cost effective to fight tanks vs medium tanks. In the demonstrated fight tanks lost around 11200 credits of value, whereas the MD tank lost 12800. But still its not recommended to fight tanks vs MD tanks of course
The fact that Tanks do more damage to infantry isn't why I often open up with one instead of a Recon. If my opponent built a tank and promised to only move it 1 square per turn until I get 3 first strikes with a Recon or Tank or until he destroys one of mine, then I'll happily build a Recon and a Mech. If I build that in game where both sides try to win, my Recon is often going to end up being attacked by a Tank. Well that and at least 3 times I built an early Mech and Recon when he built an early Artillery instead of a tank and those 3 times I did quite well and got to attack his Artillery with my Recon. But the obvious problem with opening up Recon is not that Tanks do better against Infantry, but because Tanks do well against Recons.
That was really interesting !
Say, do you intend to do a tutorial about injured units ? I won't be surprised if a lot of player actualy have a poor utilization of injured units, alwayts sending them in suicide mission or wasting cities spot to repare them. I know I do.
17:05 so what i learned from this video is 'cities " is a tank's safe word
the pixel art of advance war looks so great, I have to say I'm not a big fan of the 3d models of 1+2 rebootcamp.
what i do most of the time with tanks is that i don't use all it's movement spaces, since they are pretty fast already, cutting 1 or 2 spaces off of it in exchage of staying in range of backup is really good, and most of the time all of them can guard each other.
Hitting a Battleship with a Tank on Nell's Super is the best
If Sensei could spawn tanks with his power it would be called "Tanks for Nothing"
That's a kek from me.
It also sounds like something Jess should have as a super. I say make her the Sensei of tanks and ground vehicles.
that'd be too OP, it would have to consume lots of stars or just spawn from production tiles instead of cities, dunno how would call it though, probably "just in time production" (japanese capitalist) "arsenal of democracy" (american capitalist) iron wave or stormed production (russian)
To me, the important take-away with using tanks correctly is not to think of them as individual units. You have to consider them all as a group, moving and positioning them accordingly. In effect, Tanks are solider ants, basically. To be effective, they all need to be coordinated to achieve the larger goal, up to and including sacrificing them when necessary. And by extension, Medium Tanks and Neotanks would play into that analogy too, as there are even bigger solider ants in the colonies of some species.
13:18 The Neotank redemption arc continues!
Will probably like to see something like a unit triangle like the tank vs anti air vs battle copters, they sort of reminds me of the weapon triangle concept from FE series.
Artillery is what I want to see next.
Infantry are the bread, while tanks are the butter.
another reason why tank is so strong is because in the supposed rock-paper-scissor relation between tank- B-copter - A-Air, B copter isnt a hard counter of tank (it kinda does similar damage compared to a tank agaisnt another tank, but take little to nothing in return and B copter is more expensive) where A-Air is the best counter to B-copter and tank being also one of the better counter to A-Air
I'd argue the Battlecoptor is a great counter to the Tank. It will nearly always get the first strike and the tank becomes so weak that when it attacks Infantry on cities, it will often leave the infantry with 9 HP and take more damage in return. You don't need to spam Battlecoptors, if you have 3 of them and 3 Tanks supporting your infantry and your opponent has 9 tanks supporting his infantry, you'll come out ahead. If he has anti-air, just keeping a single Battlecoptor can deter him from getting too aggressive, just like a Tank guarding a Tank, albeit more expensive. But that 2000 is the price you pay so that it has the flexibility to go from "more expensive tank" to getting some good shots off to make it earn back its value. The Battlecotpor also takes on Medium tanks well. Even a Drake Battlecoptor can attack a Lash Medium Tank on a city. If it's not Lash's city, Battlecoptor will come out ahead. If it's her city and she attacks the next turn and Drake attacks again, the Battlecoptor will at least earn back it's value even if it doesn't come out ahead. So if Battlecoptors are that descent against even Lash Medium Tanks in cities, surely they must be good against Tanks.
@@alex_zetsu a counter yeah, a "great" counter not really. battlecopter can sure get the first strike but can't engage/throw away a B copter for a tank . the reason is because it's more expensive and doesnt deal more damage agaisnt tank than another tank attacking it. if the enemy spam tank, you can't respond with a lot of B copter which is a "great counter" to a tank according to you. you either respond with tank spam (which is common) or you respond by tech up to md tank or neotank.
enemy spam A-Air ? build a lot of tank to make great cost effective engagement
enemy spam B copter ? build a few A-Air can shut them down completely
enemy spam tank ? you cannot build a lot of "great counter" B copter
other example of real great counter :
A-Air you will gladly sacrifice it for a B copter or a Bomber
cruiser you can throw it for sub
fighter you would glady also throw for bomber or stealth fighter (you don't want to sacrifice it for a B copter, kinda similar situation to B copter vs tank)
tank or any speedy vehicle you can sacrifice it for rocket
Any great counter you are glad to sacrifice it to counter unit they are supposed to counter. B copter cannot do that agaisnt tank if A-Air, his worst counter is in range
Also a great counter is supposed to destroy or cripple the unit he should counter, which B copter does poorly (for a counter standard)
There's a video of excelblem (that mangs recognize it as a great player) that explain how the AW triangle (tank B copter and A-Air) isnt excatly a triangle and why tank spam is meta until the economy allow to buld MD tank confortably or better
@@bienhy5120 "can't engage/throw away a B copter for a tank" true but you're not reallly throwing it away unless there is an AA nearby since tanks can't do much damage to them even on the first strike. But then again attacking a tank with a tank when a Mech is guarding is has the same problem.
@@alex_zetsu it doesnt mean B copter is a "great" counter to tank. in std, if you build a B copter, any opponent will build an A-Air after that so it for 1K less, you can lockdown a unit, however there are map where B copter could become strong forcing enemy to build multiple A-Air to waste their fund, but it's not a great counter to tank. if FoW, yeah B copter could have a chance to strike a tank without being punished but it could be a gamble since enemy can build A-Air but yeah they get a shot or 2 depending the base location which is decent but it has to be more careful about the following shot and so on. it can counter 1 or 2 tank (or even 0 if the tank is stationned in his property) but the counter is short lived once tank come in a high number (like 5+ tank) and building more B copter isnt a good response. as for tank vs tank guarded by mech, sure on his own it's a not a good idea but usually when you push, you do with multiple tank guarding each other. and unlike B copter that get oneshot by A-Air, tank doesnt get oneshot by anything costing less than 15K and it could be hard to get high value when facing them (only mech and arty could do cost effecive damage but their poor action range can make it easier for the tank to play around them, and ofc tank can do agaisnt another tank). If B copter would do more dmg than 55% (on road, but it's even lower on city or forest) then yeah I can agree copter could potentially be better counter than a tank (the price and oneshot from A-Air are still an issue) but I generally prefer tank agaisnt tank that do the exact same damage but cost 2K less so I can use it elsewhere. If I have to use a B copter, it's either if the map favor them so much (lot of mountain/river to juke enemy A-Air or forcing them to build multiple A-Air for a single B copter) or if a CO is specialized on them (mostly sensei, eagle sometime but not to a lesser extend, grimm work too since B copter doesnt care about defense).
`11:35 What if there's two Rockets nearby, and destroying them gives your opponent JUST ENOUGH charge to do an Enhanced Vision and take out one of your units?
the fact that its 1000 cheaper then the AA vehicle means its a vehicle that while not as destructive as such, its multipurpose nature makes up for that...
Anti-air aren‘t actually using machine guns, that‘s why they do relatively well against tanks and other vehicles. Realistically they would be using some kids of auto-cannon (so, shells, not bullets) or maybe rockets. But they kinda look like auto-cannons tbh.
Hey Mangs, I thought of a thing.
You suggest that the tank should always take the engagement against the missile, because the missile is worth so much more that it's okay to risk the tank. But then you also note that players rarely build missiles because they're rarely worth the cost.
Doesn't the second observation contradict the first? Just because your opponent threw his 12k down the well doesn't mean you should hasten to dangle your 7k in after it. That's just thinking like a Colin main.
Or is the assumption that the most common reason why a player builds missiles because he correctly anticipates that missiles will be unusually useful during the match?
It's really time to look at artillery and how they work and function
Now Battle Copter!
My strategy is typically moving around to avoid rockets and artillery then when I can move in to take down the rockets I move in within the blind spot and destroy it, otherwise you will lose your forces pretty quick if you don’t watch out for rocket units
Tanks a lot for the tips 😁
I'd like to see the Anti-Tank next. Maybe doing DoR units isn't as easy, but I haven't seen much about it and I wonder what the Anti-Tank can do.
It's the counter to DoR's War Tanks. Similar to artillery but can perform both a direct attack or indirect attack up to 3 spaces away. They obviously do extra damage to tanks & can counter any direct attacks, but other vehicles such as recon or mech & infantry can do some serious damage to them.
They make a great barricade in chokepoints vs Mid or War Tanks. They're a bit slow on movement though.
I think you should cover the Anti-Tank from DoR. I don't remember if tanks were changed in that game, but they clearly are a very strong unit until stronger tanks can come out, so I believe the anti-tank was built to be a counter specifically to tanks, capable of attacking in melee and at range. Curious on your analysis of that unit.
It's the counter to DoR's War Tanks. Similar to artillery but can perform both a direct attack or indirect attack up to 3 spaces away. They obviously do extra damage to tanks & can counter any direct attacks, but other vehicles such as recon or mech & infantry can do some serious damage to them.
They make a great barricade in chokepoints vs Mid or War Tanks. They're a bit slow on movement though.
"...It moves with threads, which is the best ground movement"
Infantry and Mech are we jokes to you?
Yes! Hrrr Tank Treads go zooom!
Was hoping for this
I wonder, will we be seeing this unit analysis series crop up for Super Famicom Wars as well? Could be neat.
Really enjoy these vids, I'd be interested on your thoughts of the Daisenryaku series
I just finished watching this because I accidentally skipped it but I feel a bit bad for Mang's example with the real PvP battle simulation because while I definitely know what he was trying to do in the example, I do say that a part of such which by that I mean the 'first strikes sometimes not winning' has a little bit of a thing to it in which while understandable for why it probably would happen a lot, the blue team moving their tanks like that feel reckless to me for how they moved in their tanks in such a way because due to such allowed the red tanks get the drop on the second blue tank while slowing down the one who attacked.
If the blue team did something similar with guarding their tank except guarding the one who initiated the battle, then unless something reveals the blue tanks in some way, it would either just become a weird ineffective stalemate or the red team would come rush down the offensive blue tank, to which both terrain and luck rolls can determine who actually became the victor with the other side having heavier casualties than the original.
I only ran a small teat with this kind of terrain setup and the blue team moving to guard instead of rushing and the red team moving in instead ended with the blue team victorious with a 1 HP tank (thus the luck coming into play).
Hence I do feel like it's more dependent on how someone plays, how careful they play, and the luck scale along with who moves their forces in.
Calling it now: this is gonna be the video that tanks Mangs' youtube career.
Even if you don't place the tank on a city. The enemy tank might have attacked the inf. In that case you still get yout first strike on the tank as orange. really depends on how blue plays his turns
Mmm, you should have included some ships and copters for the tank to fire upon, if only for completion's sake.
And a Battle Copter to fire on your tank, for the same reason.
Mvp unit with the copter!
Idea for your channel come up with new ideas for units (or take comment suggestions) and say if they would fit in the game well
You should do landers, apcs, and t copters in one video
The only change I'd want to suggest for tanks is to introduce waterborne versions of these units, with similar price points, like gunboats, corvettes, or frigates (though nothing like the one-shot gunboats from Days of Ruin please).😜 Otherwise, I believe the tanks are fine enough as is.
I love that concept of water units to be increased in future advance Wars games and Gunboat needs more ammo for me to use them.
@@MythicalPhoenixHeart I also wouldn't mind introducing hover tanks that could travel through land or water equally fast (specifically the kind seen in sci-fi settings like Star Wars, using fictional technologies like repulsor lifts for example, instead of modern-day hovercraft, which would have trouble navigating across the kind of rough terrain that ordinary tanks could traverse easily enough), with statistics similar to light tanks, yet also a bit more expensive (with a cost of around, say, 9000). Plotwise, I'd imagine that Black Hole, or some other alien factions like White Nova, Pink Nebula, or Teal Galaxy, would be the ones to field them 1st, with the good guy factions having to capture a lab in order to reverse-engineer and produce them themselves (like what had already happened with Black Hole's Neo Tanks, Black Bombs, Black Boats, and Pipe Runners).
@@ShadowWolfTJC I love the concept of it and it can be produced by factories or Port or both. And if it is produced by ports it can traverse quickly to the battlefield and help with taking down Submarine, Vehicles and Infantry at 65%, 60% and 99% respectively for each and introduction of alien nation would be awesome when advance wars reboot camp sells well and it greenlit for more franchise ideas especially White Nova
@@MythicalPhoenixHeart Speaking of additional alien factions, here's a plot idea: What if Wars World found itself caught in the crossfire of some interstellar war between various alien factions, like in the various proxy wars during the Cold War, such as the Wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and the Middle East, where various smaller nations fought on behalf of various stronger great and super powers like the United States, Soviet Union, People's Republic of China, European Union, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.? What if the plot of said game were to rally the nations of Wars World together to free Wars World from the alien factions' destructive proxy wars, and establish themselves as a neutral power in interstellar affairs (kinda like with Vietnam and Afghanistan)?
@@ShadowWolfTJC Cool Idea, it would be nice to see other countries be represented as faction of other established countries. Since this is a new plot will the CO work like the first two games, follow dual strike or Days of Ruin, or maybe a new concept to use a mixture of old and new mechanics that they can explore?
I've noticed that more people are making tanks early now but they are also being very reckless or overly aggressive early on. Just because you're making tanks instead of recons doesn't mean they should acting like recons. I have seen people use them to attack infantry early on and that can cost you the game. If you're using a tank to attack infantry, you're throwing a 7000 unit into the opponents side of the map to only delay a capture for one turn. You just threw your tank away. I also had some games where I threw my opponent off because I made nothing by infantry and bought a M Tank first with all their tanks on my side of the map before either of us get 16000 funds a day. Those tanks are stuck taking bad engagements with infantry blocking their retreat while the M Tank goes Michael Myers on them because they can't afford a M Tank and it's too far to do anything about it. DON'T BE RECKLESS WITH YOUR TANKS; if you take care of them, they'll take care of you.
According to Dual Strike tanks are by far my most produced unit which makes sense as I've won many a battle with tank spam tee hee
Sad, I only use these li'l goodies when I'm with Kanbei. In most of COs I'm always preferring apc-artillery or AAs
Aww, you used Max instead of Jess?
For shame, Mangs. For *shame.*
Jess deserves MD tanks.
@@Mangs1337 Hmm. Well played.
I imagine you reviewing fire emblem classes
Take a shot every time Mango says "tank."
Hey Mangs can you make a video that covers everything about AWBW? I feel like a lot of people don't even know about its existance or don't know how the games are played or how the times work, etc.
True! I didn't know about it until this video.
Is your nickname somehow connected to that of Arcturus Mengsk from Starcraft?