Tractor Hacking: The Farmers Breaking Big Tech's Repair Monopoly
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ม.ค. 2018
- When it comes to repair, farmers have always been self reliant. But the modernization of tractors and other farm equipment over the past few decades has left most farmers in the dust thanks to diagnostic software that large manufacturers hold a monopoly over.
In this episode of State of Repair, Motherboard goes to Nebraska to talk to the farmers and mechanics who are fighting large manufacturers like John Deere for the right to access the diagnostic software they need to repair their tractors.
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Farmers have always been self reliant, but big busines modernizations in the world of farm equipment has left most farmers in the dust. We investigate the farmers hacking their equipment to regain the right to repair their tools.
WATCH NEXT: The Pinball Doctors, the Last Arcade Technicians in NYC - vice.video/2DRls2X
Awesome serie this is!! Please keep it up with the vids.. thx
You spelled business wrong you said "busines"
I am no longer in farming in any way, however back in the 60s we had Massey F and H on the farm. We needed a new larger tractor and JD talked my grand father into a green machine. The next planting season we had a break down and could not get a part for JD was on strike. After the strikes was over planting was over down here in TX. We got the tractor fixed and sold it. Bought a new Massey F to replace it...a few years later we needed a new combine. The JD sale man came to the shop. Grandpa knew him personally and told him "Joel you are OK as a person, however as a JD rep you are not welcome on my place The only other green thing we bought for the far was a Steiger ST270
Hey MB, you could have mentioned about GNU project and FSF as this is somewhat related to what they are struggling for.. www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html
I am a 5th generation farmer and I can vouch that this is indeed a major deal to us. Our experience with all the newer equipment is that we end up with more electrical and computer issues that lead to downtime than due to actual mechanical issues. In one instance I had to hire a mechanic to come on a 380 mile roundtrip just to plug in his computer to diagnose a problem that ended up being a $100 sensor fix. Cost me $2500 to pay for mileage and time.
Hey, that's Louis Rossmann at 9:05 in the back. I knew he'd be here somewhere!
Ma' man is on the front lines, fighting the good fight. He's practically become the face of consumer rights. 👍
He's the people's hero
Was why I came to this video. Was wondering if he was around.
That's very likely why this video wound up in my recommended feed. I've been watching his hearing videos.
@@Earthboundmike TH-cam suggested this video after I've gone through a rabbit hole of LR videos, it all started from Apple product repair and rant videos, then real estate videos, and finally some right to repair videos, and this video today.
This isn’t just with tractors, there’s a repair monopoly on everything new.
Some car manufacturers now have proprietary wrenches that only their dealer repair shops have. Talk about a PITA. One can't even change the oil without taking it to a dealer. Or change a clutch.
I feel for the farmers. But who feels for the others that have to take cars and other equipment to dealers that cant get it to work. You can buy the parts all day, but you have to have that hack to get it to operate.
I've bought several new cars in the last 6 years, most of the ones that I needed special tools for were domestic brands like GM, Ford, others like BMW and Mercedes. But even then the imports are more back yard mechanic friendly (as much as they can be with the complicated new vehicles coming out)than the domestic's now. And its because of the poor sales on domestic brands, they're cheaping out way to much and using special tools and software to try and snag more money from the market to keep the doors open. Until they go back to making quality parts and vehicles again not worth buying domestic IMO.
The brand most friendly to back yard mechanic's are Toyota, Subaru, Volkswagen/Audi.
We live in a society where most throw everything out that's why it has turned into what it is.
@@Anon54387 A trick the electronic keyboard industry is using is to develop a proprietary chip that the device runs on. then after a few years, those chips are no longer made. What would normally be a simple repair for an electronics tech is then rendered impossible.
"If this bill passes Apple might stop selling iPhones in Nebraska." Sounds like a win-win.
The bill needs to say it in a way that leaves the little guys like Apple out,... Or to the point that it points to farming only. A phone is not part of that and using it for a option to doses not impair the use of equipment. It’s a option to use with, not control of. (like a tractor or its parts that can be disable by a component or whole of its working parts. GPS is not part of that. GPS is a option. You man not have the best lines but that’s not going to stop you from farming your field.
How do you milk people, easy, release a new Apple Product.
@@lanksterprice But a dead battery on your iphone can only be replaced by Apple. Apple says it's a safety issue, but a Prius owner can change their own battery...
Lankster Price little guys like apple? Hello do you realize this is 2020 not 2005? Apple isn’t a little guy they are worth billions and that’s just apple alone
yep would would buy any apple crap must b bat shit crazy.
This is exactly why the newest tractor i have was made in 1956. I can work on them, fix them and keep on working. They might be slower and smaller, but in the long run I usually get finished first in our area with less overhead cost, less stress and overall less breakdowns.
CanadianBriar sadly, then problems come a common occurrence with those old tractors
Do you realize they can pay green lobby to strip you of your old comfy tracktor?
@@heyhoe168 bingo
People are missing all the pieces in this scam here. It's not about the tractor, it's about control. It's about the anti-human, anti-natural order globalists, and their corporate agenda to control everything down to the individual farmers - because independent self-sufficient people are a threat to them (the only real threat to them).
on the one hand they push the tech Monopoly so that they can control your tractor. For now it's just about profits, but give it 10 years, and I'm sure if you do something politically uncorrect, or something that the ruling mono-party doesn't want, you might find that your equipment doesn't work, or that "under the terms of service" you have been denied any further support and so on. And from the other end, they use fake "climate change" hysteria to make it illegal for you to use your old reliable equipment, if you don't want to be a simp to be tech industry.
either way they exert the full force of the government and of industry to control you, alien at you, bankrupt you, throw you in jail, and if necessary eliminate you. This is the plan, and if you are free, independent, proud American who respects their culture and heritage, they hate you.
Why not get a 1980s tractor? They don't have modern tech either
@@Laotzu.Goldbug the next step is translating all that computer data into full automation - the death of the family farm and independent farmer. Just like we saw in industry, workers become maintenance labor. One farmer will maybe be lucky enough to monitor a dozen fully automated tractors .. a dog with a note.
Every car enthusiast needs to get behind this, anyone who likes to work on vehicles is in the same boat
I was just thinking the same thing! They also need to get past a legislation where you older model car can be reproduced as new, but emission, safety and etc regulation is the same as was for the original vehicle. This way we can get low costing reliable cars that hold together longer than 5 years or 100k km.
Essentially we can get older 95 toyota corollas, nissan skylines etc reliable cars from 80's and 90's. Heck i would pay small fortune to get brand new condition 95 corolla and there is no this new age tech bullshit under the hood, just simple electronic injection and whole car can be repaired by owner with basic mechanical skills.
seriously, I have a 1972 Spitfire I found in a barn and got running in just a few weeks. My ford Focus is damn near impossible to do anything on. I replaced the brakes myself and the computer wouldn't let me start the car again until my friend who works at a ford dealership let me borrow the diagnostic tablet for half an hour so I could "reset" the sensor. That sensor doesn't do anything, it doesn't even let you know when you need new brakes, but it somehow can turn off the starter motor...
Most car companies already make vehicle repair info available to 3rd party auto shops, which is why you don't have to go to the dealer for every repair. Tesla being a notable exception.
Tesla cars -_-
I was able to add missing features to my F150, such as a backup camera and door keypad and activate it in the computer using a ODB to USB cable purchased off amazon for $20 to 40 and use free software to modify the computer. Plus you can use it to diagnose and fix any problem. If you replace a sensor and need to re-calibrate the computer you can do that. I've seen people add factory screens, change the gauge cluster, fix the speedometer calibration after changing gears or putting on different sized tiers. This is just a few examples. Plus the numerous aftermarket computers that are available for any application.
Not sure why this is any different. I guess the aftermarket support for tractors is pretty small given the fact that there aren't many. It's a lot different when there are hundreds of millions of 20 to 60 thousand dollar trucks/cars on the road that share the same basic computer interface. Not sure how many tractors there are like this or how much they cost but my guess is they number in the low hundreds of thousands and cost more than $100K plus if not close to half a million.
It makes sense that they would want the same flexibility, they just have to fight the manufacture. This sort of stuff should be illegal. I hope they are forced to release the diagnostic software and support it.
This act needs to pass. This is utter horseshit. Farmers are our lifeblood. These people work harder and longer than nearly everyone else. The right to repair is so important.
Farveknor “utter deer shit”*
I think it's hog shit.
nothing but straight facts were said
Okay that’s just not true anymore. Yes they do an amazing an important jobs. But that doesn’t change the fact that they don’t work as much as the average American, and are much better paid than the average American.
And don’t forget they are the most subsidized industry by a landslide. Without the government all farms would go bankrupt within a couple of years.
It’s almost impossible to start your own farm in the US, you either need to be a millionaire or inherit a farm.
Lastly, American farmers produces a subpar product, that can’t compete with a lot of countries, or even be sold in them.
Capitalism has ruined the American farming industry and have made it impossible for the average American to become a owner of a farm.
Martin Rotvig this is intentional on the governments part. They don’t want people being self reliant.
Love how the AT&T rep basically just threatened the entire state of nebraska over farmers having the ability to repair their tractors
True friends of the people, I'm sure!
Is it really that difficult to repair john deere
@@bekabeka71 Have you ever tried to diagnose a 'check engine' light on a car without a code reader, or the information of what those codes mean? You can't. It;s the same thing with these tractors. If you can't figure out the diagnostic codes you have no idea what to fix.
It's not so much about hard to work on as it is about not being able to diagnose the problem.
TheThriceIsRight, This ruling affects many other industries as well. It affects the cel phone industry, the musical instrument industry, Automotive, and any other product that uses software and other electronics to operate.
Hahah and AT&T doesn't even repair devices. They push people to do full replacements
@@scottbc31h22 it's worse with tractors (and sometimes with cars) than just not being able to read the codes.
The problem is that each new component has chips in them that talk to the central computers in the tractor or combine, and if the serial numbers reported to the central computer isn't listed in its database as installed officially by a JD representative (who would put an entry in that central computer to that regard) the tractor will refuse to operate.
This is getting to the point that you can't even change a tyre on a JD tractor, you have to call your JD dealer who will then send out a guy with a new tyre and his laptop to tell the computer in the tractor that yes, this tyre is an authorised JD purchase.
Tesla has some of the same shenanigans going on.
Both American "freedom" companies btw, Japanese, Korean, and European companies tend to not do things like that, certainly not to the same extent.
Once something is bought, it is that persons property including the software. John Deere is basically holding the software hostage
Not just John Deere but lot's of big business from Apple to Tes
Actually they are attempting to hold the hardware hostage via the software which in turn controls everything.
I’m sure they have some legalese bullshit that says your ownership is actually a “subscription license”, and in order to run diagnostics, you must pay the subscription fee by paying the manufacturer to fix it.
Its sad that this is even an issue..
LMAO
Irene agrees - Montana
It's all about $$$ Apple in particular makes a SHITLOAD of money off of repairs -- they don't want you to get your device repaired they want to sell you A NEW (or refurbished by them) device! That's why their repair fees are astronomical...150$ for a new screen assembly, when it costs them less than 5 dollars for those parts and about 15 minutes of labor to do the repair for someone? LoL...like I said they purposely charge ridiculous amounts so they can have their "geniuses" aka salespeople say "Well you're probably better off just getting a new one" -- also, something that people don't realize, if you do take your device to Apple to be repaired, they get to keep all the parts from it, and they of course fix them and use them for legit warranty replacements all the time. So they're double screwing you.
tjwoosta it's am issue in your phone and car too. Should have known sooner.
It's about time someone stood up against these companies and told them what's right. Also really cool to see older people being so crafty with digital technology and also defending democratic principles around it, in Europe anyone above 50 thinks it's just magic and wouldn't even know where to start lol
Farmers, car owners, appliance, etc, anyone and everyone should have the right to repair what they own.
other wise there is not such thing as ownership and what is that called again, I forget.
They should be able to say I own what I paid for (today you might think you own it, but it's not real ownership), and with that should have complete control over how it's repaired, and should be able to buy the parts to repair it.
@GW ok, but you're wrong.
@GW the repairs may be easy but you dont know what to repair if you cant diagnose the problem
@GW I work for a Deere construction dealer. I use my laptop every single day
John Deere. The Monsanto of tractor makers.
Bankrupting farmers four wheels at a time
I wish I could give you 10k likes. How eloquent and to the point 👏🇳🇬
4 wheels at a time
Awesome metaphor
B Laws Well put
Not really... Monsanto isn’t even a company anymore and no one forced anyone to spend any money with either company.
This all seems to be focused on JOHN DEERE. What other manufacturers are doing this? Is it all of them, or is it just JD?
Why our older equipment is holding value so well!
Unfortunately, the bill did not pass. Lydia Brasch is state senator, and if I had known about this bill at the time, I would have gone to Lincoln to support it. As someone who has torn open many electronics to repair them, I think this is an essential right that owners should have over their equipment. When the manufacturer makes it impossible to repair a product, you don't really own it, you are simply renting it.
Check out TEXA Diesel Laptop Diagnostic Equipment
of course the bill didn't pass the big companies pay off the crooks in Washington Dysfunctional Central you get robbed from both ends
@Ellsworth Whitehead
Yet another reason the US needs a free market
littlemas2 Lobbyists bought of enough politicians to kill the bill. 😡😡😡
the farmers do not have to buy this shit. Put these companies out of business. Buy from any other country that gives ownership to the farmer who buys it. These monopolies try this all the time. Sell you a product that you are not allowed to use. Set that shit on fire, get the insurance and buy a tractor from china. Tractors do NOT need computers.
Get these right to repair bills passed!!!
The tricky bit is that it can expose a lot of your proprietary code and technology. So the job of building the diagnostic tools will increase immensely, which is a cost that will be passed on to the consumer. Something you're might say that you're willing to pay for. But only really retroactively, not during the original purchase when it costs 50% more for what is virtually the same product.
Now these diagnostic tools for john deere would be very much like the diagnostic tools for a BMW or something. Which are largely available so in this case it shouldn't be a problem. However the language of the bills is not to be taken lightly.
These products already cost hundreds of thousands. What John Deere and others have done in the last few decades is a joke. I made a stand against case I H not buying their tractor about 10 years ago because they gotten to the point then with out their little computer the tractor wouldnt start. I told them hell no. Yes the computers are very useful but like anything they fail. I need the option to run without them. at the time john deeres computers could still be turned off and tractor was still productive. But it was rapidly coming to this bs issue of the computers not being an option
I'm a software dev, the project I'm working on has currently costs well over 100 million and is not yet released. What I'm trying to display here is that R&D is expensive when everyone working on it has a minimum of a bachelor of science, and hundreds of thousands is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
If you don't want a tractor with computers them don't buy one with computers. Most people do want the gadgets, that's why they're stuffed in there without the proper time to go through a development cycle.
To fix this problem what people needs to do is to show manufacturers, that what you want is quality not quantity. That you do with your money, but that's not something people do. Look at tesla in the automotive world, they're terribly built but stuffed with barely compiling code and people go nuts for them.
If we don't have the time to complete the actual system, we do not have the time to build good tools to troubleshoot it.
Völundr Frey: There are no tractors without computers in them unless you are looking at a tractor that is from the 1970's or older. I work for a John Deere dealer (I do IT support for the field techs) and what Dothemathright 1111 said is correct. John Deere Service Advisor 5.0 is the software for John Deere equipment. Nothing can be done to the tractor without an authorized John Deere Field tech and his laptop with SA on it.
Change a part? Oil change? Swapped out Tires? Sensors in the tractor know you changed something and stop the tractor from starting until a tech is onsite to reset the tripped alert.
There is a lot more going on too but basically all tractor manufactures are like this in some way now and Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan and other auto manufactures are looking at doing the same thing so they can force people to only visit an authorized repair shop at a dealership and all the private repair shops either can only fix old cars or they fold.
wrong answer. get the electronics off the machines.
I think this was in my recommended feed because of Louis Rossmann.
I'm thinking the same thing right now
he's in the video if you look closely
@@dillzilla4454 wow it took me about 3x to spot hi... What are talking about ?
Me too
In fairness, it would make sense since Louis is also completely for the Right to Repair, and Apple/computers isn't the only scummy company/industry trying to prevent people from doing their own repairs.
8:50 Louis Rossman in the back!
lmao
"lmao" indeed. What's laughable is that a laptop & phone repair guy is on the front line, in these courthouses, defending YOU, the farmers & tractor techs and Your Rights - doing Your dirty work! That's not his industry, and yet, he's still got your back! Where are You, the farmers and techs at? You need to be in there, in front of those senators, fighting for Your livelyhood. It's Your ass that's on the line after all, because if this bullshit doesn't pass, the only ones 'LMAOing' are going to be the dealerships, all the way to the bank! 😅 It'll be way cheaper to repair your own equipment than to take it to the 'stealership'.. Ffs, c'mon, it's not rocket science guys.
@@R3TR0R4V3 eeeeey chill for a bit, will ya! Rossmann is doing his part, there are farmers fighting for this as well. However commenters on the internet can be from any country, most are probably not from USA/UK, and have vastly different legal structure
Louis will save tractor owners, from his store in Manhattan.
He's definitely done his part. It's the other people in the repair industry that should do theirs, and that means heading to the courtroom. At some of these hearings, Louis was the only person that showed up.
It’s craziness that you have to fight for the right to repair your own property. People should boycott those companies.
If these people get their way, then you will no longer have property.
These big tech companies are run by socialists/communists/fascists that do not believe in private property.
Hence the push towards lincensed everything. You are not allowed to have your own property.
The other reason behind it is that they can own your property and then rent it out to you for greater profits.
GW no one is taking “right of software” you fool. Look at Apple for example. They have started gluing their batteries in and voiding warranties just to have you spend more cash to take it to their Apple centers.
Every tractor comp. does this so do we just keep doing the same thing
It's not just John deer all the big tractor makes are the same
Great question posed at the end when he asked 'Will his new tractor still be as useful as his old tractor still is, when that new tractor gets to be as old? '
So many products made nowadays (Laundry Machines, Dishwashers, Cellphones) are built to break or be outdated purposely. It's an actual term called Planned Obsolescence , and if these product manufacturers are willing to make things that are designed to break, Consumers should be Allowed to Fix Them!
I would say no! The new equipment coming out today will not last a life time, IMO. Plus the old tractors will still be running and doing work.
@Tcll5850 ???? Try it's already happening. They NEVER design them for maintenance in mind, only what will go together at the factory. How do I know? Several relatives work for dealerships and they complain often enough about the crap that was designed. I've had to work on enough of it myself. It's stupid what manufactures do.
I'm an IT Security Student up here in WI, as well as a hacking and electronics hobbyist. The things you guys are fighting for have a much larger reach that you might think. You aren't just helping farmers, you're helping anyone out there who repairs for a living (or as a hobby).
I still disc, bust, and cut with a Massey Ferguson 135 for one simple reason. I can repair everything on it with basic hand tools.
I would hate to have to farm my 2800 acres with 135 massey
Just plain evil. Same thing Monsanto and their ilk have done to seeds. The best fix is for JD to wake up one morning with zero sales.
Every time Big Tech sinks their greasy teeth into a vertical - they destroy it cuz profit is king. They don't care about anything or anyone but themselves and a bottom line.
Cummins
Cat
BMW
Eaton Fuller
Rockwell automation
I can go on and on, it's not just Deere.
Monsanto, I've just listened to a 2 hour podcast about GMO's, it's the first time I've heard of Monsanto. It's scary how much weight a company can have in a market. Like Apple once you're at the top and have the money behind you you're free to do what you want! Some flavour saver tomatoes seeds landed in a farmers field from a neighbouring farm and Monsanato took him to court for not paying the licence fee for using their seeds, he lost and now he has to pay Monsanto for growing the crop. Madness!
Jess Roberts Eaton Fuller-standard transmissions? I guess in the air clutch and range shift, but not really that convoluted.
Common misconception. Monsanto doesn't bully farmers like this. Or at least, they haven't sued farmers for cross contamination.
They sue farmers that steal their seeds, that's it.
Crazy that it's an issue for a farmer to fix there own tractors 😶
Tom Pemberton Farm Life Lol what do you expect? Have you seen the size of those things? They are comparing a 1930s tractor with a modern one. There's a reason for everything, modern tractors are much more efficient that the old ones, by being more efficient they generate more money and a part of that money needs to be used to repair the tractor so that I keeps making money, very simple equation, if they don't like it and want less efficient equipment they can keep using the 1930s tractor and stop complaining.
Tom Pemberton Farm Life if you want to be a farmer you have to know that no mater what brand you buy there always going to brake down and that’s going to cost u time and money so it’s recommended u know more about the machinery than your farm
Marc D, Thomas Johnson: you do not own a tractor, nor do you appreciate the issue - that's easy to tell, so I don't know why you think your comments add value.
your point about modern tractors being more efficient is true however farmers now in my area make less then they used to per unit of produce comparatively and their tractors also have gone up with the increased efficiency. While all machines require maintenance they are not disputing the fact they want the ability to be able to fix and maintain their own equipment themselves on their farms and not add in addition cost of transporting the machine to the dealer and back again on top of the repairs because as the tractors have become more efficient the repairs and parts have also increased. it is like you having the choice now of maintaining your own vehicle and now you cant because you need a program to make any part you add to the car other then what was added at the dealership not the local mechanic it has to go to the dealership now for all of its repairs and any new addition from a trailer to new brakes. If you can't see a problem with that then i will enlighten you...ITS NOT A FREE MARKET they have monopoly.
Marc D Your logic is specious. Farming is a very time sensitive business. Not unless a farmer is located within a short distance of a dealership, the cost & time to, first, get the machinery to a repair depot and, second, wait for the available time in the shop is potentially disastrous for their entire season and, therefore, their yearly income.
"Tractors are the workhorses of agriculture" Yup, because they replaced the workhorses!!
Yes that is where the term came from.
8:53 take notes everybody: never buy the products of AT&T
Apple is involved? There you go, its a money grab.
That would be corporatism, and in a wider sense, government.
@@GrimFaceHunter LOL Its still capitalism.
Corporatism is capitalism is capitalism.
Under capitalism, they create a computer that doesnt accept other parts. Doesnt matter if its corporatism. lol
Its like the worst parts of capitalism cant be capitalism they have to be something else. No.
@LaFlairdom "Under capitalism, they create a computer that doesnt accept other parts. Doesnt matter if its corporatism. lol"- Is that supposed to be some red herring?
Manufacturers have a right to choose whether they want to use parts that are replaceable or not. Same goes for interchangeability with parts from other manufacturers.
"Its like the worst parts of capitalism cant be capitalism they have to be something else. No."- Evidence?
@@GrimFaceHunter so you think not being able to repair the product you bought because they want to restrict customers with arbetrary computer resets only available to a monopoly is somehow a normal or good thing to do? Stand up for something dude.
No. As i already commented, government is the biggest problem.
This is pure B.S. There needs to be a federal mandate that these machines include stand alone self diagnostics for the life of the machine.
Own the machine? You own the diagnostics. Period.
This is coming from an Electrical Engineer at John Deere,
IMO this whole thing is silly. Of course we don't want people messing with the firmware of our vehicle. Yes, they can (and do) read the codes out to figure out what's wrong, but no machinery company, or car company for that matter, lets people have access to their internal software. Do people gripe that Ford doesn't let them modify their engine software? And the claim that when I buy the vehicle, I own the software is wrong too. When I buy my iPhone I don't own iOS. I own my phone with a version of iOS on it, and I don't expect apple to open it up so that I can screw with it however I want. I'm buying their product with the understanding that it's a whole package.
Our machines are tuned exactly right, and any change that's made deoptimizes them. These people griping are the same people who take their vehicle in for warranty because they chipped it and overtorqued it and blew something out, and they're the same ones that would sue us if we allowed them full access and they made the vehicle do something unsafe. The other thing that would happen immediately is that everyone would disable the pollution control systems, which is illegal and we'd also be on the hook for. I don't know why Deere got singled out in this whole thing, but it ticks me off, if you can't tell. We really go out of our way to take care of our customers and we warranty things that no other company would because that's how we've earned customers' loyalty. The implication that we're greedy and trying to screw all our customers is just plain wrong. We're trying to give them the best, most reliable vehicles and you can't do that if everyone is messing with the internals.
Bryce Miller let me fix my shit then. I'm a millennial and I don't want a modern car because of this bull. Imo the code should be open source. Do what I want to it. IT'S MY CAR. I don't own the code because some software engineer designed it? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? I don't own my engine, because a mechanical engineer designed it. It's the same thing. It's not like people are hacking tractors like phones. The iOS comparison is apples to oranges.
Bryce Miller and if machines are tuned right, why can you easily tune engines and get better mileage, power, etc, and still have it be reliable?
Bryce Miller explain the GPS component bullshit. What does that have to do with software? Just repair the shit. Diagnose the circuit. You're selling 100k plus equipment. And a lot of older cars, like my 99 Sierra, have easily accessible and tunable ECUs. So do Ford's. My friend just tunes his Mazda Speed 6 (joint Ford vehicle) all the time.
Bryce Miller No one wants to haul a machine to the dealer or wait a week for a service guy to fix something that they are perfectly capable of fixing in 5 minutes in the feild.
When I read "could add costs with no associated value," my first thought was how my iPhone charging cord has an expensive chip inside it that's only there to prevent me from using a cheaper charging cord with no special chip inside it.
My grandfather is a farmer in Mississippi. I just visited them over Thanksgiving and he was having a blast telling me about how he learned to use Amazon. He has been ordering parts nonstop once he realized how much cheaper he could get stuff versus going to dealers and shops.
This is another layer of 'planned obsolescence' that drives me crazy. It drives me crazy on new cars too, but for tractors and ag equipment it is just amazingly dumb.
This level of overt animosity towards your customers will destroy the loyalties formed to these companies over generations. We were always a John Deere family now through three generations of farming. If we run green anymore, it will be from the 70's and 80's and that's it.
Customer loyalty means less then nothing when you have a monopoly or duopoly and new companis can't form. Like john Deere has.
Except it isn't just John Deere. That's the point of the article. Tech companies in general don't want people to be able to fix their equipment on their own for a variety of reasons: some legitimate (it voids warranty so you don't make the company pay for your failed repair job), and some not so legitimate (it cuts into their bottom line).
However, I think if you _own_ something, you ought be to able fix, or modify, it however you like.
Yea I can't believe they are giving the farmers who make it possible for us to eat no way to work on there own equipment are you kidding me. Companies should be ashamed of yourself...
Capitalism
no company should be able to hold a person hostage over broken equipment
Jeremy Honeycutt Audi are the ***king worst ...but then I don't buy German Cars for those kind of Bull shit reasons or the fact that their MPG is nonsense (Looking at you Volkswagen!)
Kris McCleary Hope, Capitalism works it makes a damn good tractor, capitalist market forces will correct this as customers to elsewhere. You putting forward that Mao's, Lenin's or Stalin's agricultural model worked?
cenexes 12 ingersoll rand gave me my first taste of this. Proprietary pipe fittings. Are you kidding me? REFUSED to give me a cross reference on a v belt they had on backorder for 4-6wk! I’ll die before buying ingersol.
Leonard McCreary that right there is why American companies will never be able to compete on the market and will only get DOD contracts and people wonder why the defense budget is over half a trillion dollars. cause the military is supporting companies that would otherwise collapse
mwnciboo
Excluding Volkswagen's fiasco, German cars are freakin great. Problem is that they're soooo expen$ive to maintain...
John Deere has done this for years, from pulleys at abnormal angles so you have to buy their belts and so on.
They even do it to their lawn mowers. I needed a new carb and any other lawn mower a Briggs and Stratton carb would work, but nope not on that, had to get a $70 JD carb for it to run right.
They don't want the new equipment to last 50 to 60 years, they need to be able to sell you new equipment.
It goes to show that if you give corporations an inch, they will take a country mile.
Same bullshit is pushed on everyone by white collar pencil pushers who couldn't take a crap without a plumbers help! Corporations have NO patriotism, No conscious, No desire to do what is right. The almighty dollar is the only god they know and CORPORATIONS ARE THEREFORE, NOT PEOPLE!
Trust me, I was trained by one of those national corporations 50 years ago and they write their own bible, called "corporate guidelines."
cuntry
If you give them an inch, they'll take your farm. They don't play around.
I've found salvaging and repairing something to meet a function has been an amazing and rewarding experience. Upcycling cabinets from craigslist vs new ikea stuff, turning an old laptop into a chromebook and SNES emulator vs buying one of each, or even saving a garbage disposal for a compost spreader, the thrill of self-reliance is a pure form of freedom.
I am with you on this, I may not salvage stuff but I like to repair stuff which would normally be thrown out. The repaired item is usually better than when new and will last longer than replacing with a new item which will fail the same way. I consider this advanced recycling. Good for the pocket and also mentally rewarding.
No doubt imabeapirate. I am a 50 yo woman & I got into fixing/building things way back in high school. I wanted a nice Camaro & couldn't afford to buy what I wanted so, with a neighbor's help, I got a used 454 and rebuilt it. I then put that in my older Camaro & slowly rebuilt the entire car. That got me into learning how to fix or repair most anything. Later in life I bought a house that was $90,000 below market value because it needed some work. I spent about $20,000 on materials & did the work myself. Saving money doing it myself is great but yes, you are right, the big payoff of doing yourself is the freedom of being able to do it yourself.
If something breaks, I know how to fix it. I don't feel helpless & dependent on someone else to fix it for me. Even if I end up paying someone to fix something because it's not worth my time to fix it myself, it's a choice, not something I have to do. That self reliance is priceless.
In the farm buisness the newwest tech is what keeps you competitive. You could have one john deer tractor that can plow a few large feilds in an hour, or you could keep your old tractor that only plows the same feilds after 4 hours. They need the newwest stuff so they can stay afloat in this exreamly competitive environment, the faster you plant seeds, the more you can plant.
I'm trying to do it too.
maybe he could turn that $350,000 combine into a useful garbage bin
Saw this in my recommended viewing, probably because of right to repair and Louis Rossman and other's efforts
Same
Same
The same issues with cars. Too many computers and sensors.
The problem is not the computers & sensors... The problem is the attitudes & methods of manufacturers locking rightful owner out of the machines they purchase.
people ask me why i spent $ 11,000 on my 97 cummins 12 valve pickup, no computer, at all, dont even need a battery except to start it.
and how often do modern engines throw codes that turn out to be faulty sensors?
Says the guy on an electronic device...
@@T1Oracle Welcome to the club, idiot.
$1200 quote to replace the starter on my grandfather's Deere that my dad still uses. I made a starter relay for $10 and it works like new again. Don't be afraid to attempt to screw it up yourself if it's already broken.
Damn right!
We had the same problem on a 5065E. The solenoids are known to fail on that type of tractor. I ended up buying a third party companies starter on it and it works great. I think I bought it for 100 bucks and it has been on there 3 years now with no issues. When I talked to John Deere they wanted to sell me a whole new starter (Which would've likely had the same problems)
For 5 or 6 times as much most likely, if not more than that?
That sounds about right. One of the most frustrating things is that if you search the forums they are loaded with people who have the same solenoid problems.
I have an ASV 4810 with CAT 3054T in it. 2 years ago CAT asked me close to $2000 for a brand new starter or $1200 for a rebuilt one. I went with a chinese for $300. Still working. Except for the pain of swapping the parts, I can pay myself a fresh starter every year damned
You wouldn't download a tractor!....
try me ;)
take the word download and replace with share you wouldn't share a meme
Stian Kjellstadli I tried to download more RAM.
Classic meme.
Hahaha throwback right here
In the long run John Deere will probably regret this. They're obviously too greedy for their own good
They probably won't.
@newagetojo it's not unnecessary, they just restrict it way too much like Apple does. The tech is extremely beneficial.
Could a "new" tractor company build a competitive, repairable tractor and enter the market? Or even just supply all the subassemblies for the Farmers to build on site ? ( parts are less regulated than finished vehicles)
A new John Deere Combine costs about $500,000. Maybe farmers should go back to the old style combines and boycott John Deere until they let them fix their own tractors like we did when I was a kid. It's just like Tesla not letting you fix or rebuild your wrecked Tesla car. They will not help you at all to do repairs on your own car. You don't own the technology if you can't get tools or software to fix it. The Tech Companies can now bleed you dry. What is to keep those companies from sending a signal to the car, tractor, cell phone and make it start to fail in small ways to make you think you need a NEW one? Tesla communicates with ALL of its products and collects sensor data from the entire vehicle. They can send signals to the computer on the cars to do tests, what is to keep them from telling a sensor to fail so you have to bring the car in for a repair, costing you money? These companies don't want you to see what they are able to do remotely.
Not quite right there JS13. Tesla is making parts available. They may not have provided them initially because they wanted these parts in the cars they were assembling and didn't have enough to go around.
Well if you have to have a combine , i understand bit if you need a tractor get a BIG BUD. OR A STEIGER TIGER THEY CAN MOVE A BATTLESHIP !!!!!!!
First company that makes their stuff user friendly wins.
Swamp Pappy77, thats how the PC crushed Apple once up on a time.
thats why these corporations work as a cartel by fixing prices and making sure everyone of them stay in line. if a company try to make their components easily replaceable and more customer friendly they will make sure it will go under.
@mark spannar Do you have any idea how easy mechanical repairs are? I'm 100% self taught as far as motorcycles, snowmobiles, dirt bikes etc go and there's not a single mechanical thing I can't replace. Anyone can learn anything if they want to, turning wrenches is annoying but so simple it's stupid.
@@yteka99 based on his comments on this video, I do believe mark spannar knows EXACTLY how easy it is to repair machines like these... Perhaps even these very models. It's blatantly obvious that he is somehow involved in the other side of this argument and likely his livelihood is potentially threatened by farmers and independent mechanics being empowered to affect their own repairs... He might wind up laid off from the stealership he works for in the service department.
This should apply to any sort of device or equipment that we use in our daily lives. You shouldn't have to replace an crucial piece of hardware just because a company "doesn't support it" anymore. If these guys are successful with their cause, it should have great implications for other types of equipment, not just farm tractors. Great job, guys! I think I always knew in the back of my mind that this was a problem, but this video brought it into focus. Well done, Motherboard! :) I'm going to have to show this to my dad. I know he has complained for years now that newer cars are a pain to work on because of all the tech in them. He's pretty against government regulation. But, I don't really trust multi-billion dollar corporations to "work together on the issue" while keeping the best interests of the "little guy" in mind. ;)
Agreed. Planned obsolescence is a complete cancer on society, terrible for the consumer, the environment, pretty much everyone and everything except corporations.
As an embedded software engineer, I can assure you that it's most likely not because of planned obsolescence. It's because of the sheer number of man hours that would be needed to maintain "dead" code base. I'm talking about all the dependencies, licenses, development environment etc.
Now, one could say that that old code is worthless to them. Partly true, but it's also probable that they share some of that code with their newer product lines. Additionally, corporations are often not so keen releasing their old code as open source.
This guy hit the issue of out-dated equipment right on the head.
It's also very possible that these out-dated versions of the software have unfixed bugs in them. To expect the company to go back and maintain old versions_ well there's really no incentive in it for them currently. To just release it all immediately to open-source might cause more chaos instead of helping them repair things.
Although I detest companies like Apple and I will NEVER buy any of their bullshit products for this only-we-can-repair your products mind-set. Apple in particular make their products specifically so people cannot fix them. They want to fool consumers into thinking they are almighty and a simpleton such as you could not fathom the work that is required to repair. When truly they are bricking your phone because you tried to replace a part, gluing parts together so you cannot replace them individually, using specialty screws so its inconvenient for you to buy the tools to wind them, etc. Don't buy from companies that do this shit. Unfortunately these farmers may not have those options.
The problem of maintaining a dead codebase is a completely artificial one. Once the software is deprecated, its source code should be released. That way, those that would like to maintain it can, and those that don't want the hassle can simply upgrade to the new version. Many of the larger farms have resident mechanics; surely they could afford to keep a programmer on staff if it meant cheaper non-dealer repairs. Smaller operations can decide for themselves if learning to maintain the software is worth their time
+vofs You hit the nail right on the head. I forgot to mention that in my original post. Yes. Once it's obsolete, release it to the repair community.
Anyone else love learning about stuff you had no clue about before? I think it’s really important to just know what’s going on in the world no matter how big or small the subject matter is
This is the same issue that happened with auto repair shops. But the granting of access to software was granted much sooner. Keep up the good fight, and you will win. Also, you just gave me a great idea for helping farmers around me. Good day too.
This is why the three tractors I own are all thirty plus years old.
Skankhunt 42
Well seeing as I married an Israeli and I have many friends who live in Israel I have to support them.
Believe it or not you can support a country and a people without supporting everything their government does.
Have you ever been to Israel?
Jacob Riley
I'm just going to point out my observations on this subject.
Judaism just like Christianity and Islam is a religion not a race of people in fact there are many types of Jews from many types of backgrounds and cultures.
I'm an individualist as in I judge an individual on their actions, attitudes, beliefs and behaviors.
I personally despise islam mainly because after nine over seas tours over a twelve year period I have seen Orthodox islam for what it really is.
But ive Also worked with many Muslims who are basically just like me and you and despise what Orthodox islam teaches.
Don't get me wrong i still don't trust them as far as I can throw them but still many of them just want to be left alone.
Basically what I'm Saying is you can't judge the entire tree by one or two rotten Appel's.
This applies to all groups of people.
Now when it comes to the Jew issue I've noticed that many but not all of the individual people who are involved with the new world order, pedo rings, migrant crisis etc, and doing bad things as heads of government, education or entertainment and are doing the "demonic" deeds you speak of are of Jewish heritage and decent but as far as religion goes they all are either open atheist, pagen, Wiccan, rumored or open luciferians or Scientologist.
Very few if any are practicing Jews and they definitely aren't Christian you can tell that by they're actions alone.
But something they all have in common is they all subscribe in some way or another to a social collectivist ideology of some kind or another
Whether it be socialism, Marxism, leninism, maoism or out right communism.
There is an article that was published in 1910 about the communist plan to take down America and it talks about getting the masses to bicker amongst themselves over trivial things including religious and cultural differences.
Basically the divide and conquer strategy that has been being successfully implemented in America and Europe for the past few decades.
It's all right there in that document, everything we're seeing now is what was written in 1910.
Don't be fooled, Israel and it's people aren't your enemy it's the God less social Collectivists who have been planning this attack for the last century and a half.
I work with machines, and honestly I much rather get my hands dirty to fix a tractor then to tow it all the way to the retail store. It's a real bullshit dealing with new stuff...
Israel and Zionism is the cancer that is the route of all pain, sorrow, and evil in the world.
"What'cha got under the hood?"
"Android 8. My neighbor runs Ubuntu on his rig 'cuz he says the updates run smoother."
God Bless all of you in your efforts and may you prevail !
John Deere needs to be ashamed of themselves. The Farmers WERE their Bread & Butter..they truly forgot where they come from. Shame!!!!!
This!!
I totally support Right to Repair! Thanks.
It's all about that money baby!! Deere is terrified of people fixing their own products. I don't own a farm nor do I own a tractor. I do have a small landscape business. I will never own John Deere due to parts and the cost and down time I see other joys go through. I run Exmark I can get parts overnight or choose from after market manufactures to get parts I need. Deere you only have to buy their parts. It's all about that money baby. They hold all the cards and the farmer gets screwed!! Your property you should be able to repair it!
n3qdz way to go!! Stay away from that green junk!!
Its weird though how their construction equipment is easier to fix. These agricultural ones seem like a real pain.
On the newer JD 450J bulldozer, you can do basic tests with the onboard computer, and get all of your codes.
Meanwhile in agriculture its all locked??? The fuck
Inverted V12 Powerhouse because john deere himself does not make any construction equipment that would rather come from german manufacturers liebherr and then only be painted green for the us market
Thorsten Erlenkamp I know the early 2000s were mostly hitachi but repainted.
Thorsten Erlenkamp but its all manufacturers that ive seen which you can pull out the diagnostics in the onboard computer, or use a snapon scanner for motors for other settings
"I am afraid the ordinary citizen will not like to be told that the banks can, and do, create money...And they who control the credit of the nation direct the policy of Governments and hold in the hollow of their hands the destiny of the people." ~ Reginald McKenna, former Chancellor of the Exchequer, January 24, 1924
Greetings: We have suffered the same problem in the trucking industry since the advent of engine computer technology introduced in the late 80s. Most of the repairs R electronics related. I support Ur cause.
Thinking of upgrading the Kubota.
Was thinking of going green (John Deere).
I'll go with an old rebuilt Case.
They will never hold me hostage.
Deere is awful. All I had to do was buy a used JD mower and fix an idler puller on it to see what kind of crap they pull. I needed basically a bolt that was custom and a washer. When I got to the JD shop they were not liking me much because I wasn't hauling in a high dollar combine but was just a guy with a little green mower. The parts they sold me...oh God. They had re-designed a "bolt and a washer" into a multi-piece "assembly" that was like $43. Never again will I use anything that is that shade of green.
Mike Ries thanks for sharing. new holland is also bad this way also.
Mike Ries, the only good shade of green, is "seafoam green" which is ONAN , before Cummins, bought them, that is
I'm a city slicker with a lawn "tractor". Could care less who drives what to plant and harvest what. I kind of like the ORANGE mower.
Same with orange badged motorcycles
When I found the lathe my dad bought in the shed I was kicking myself. Could have made that bolt myself out of a piece or round stock.
John Deere use to promote one of the advantages of their Two-Cylinder tractors (1917-1961) was their simplicity, ease of operation and owner service repair.
I love vice for this, great journalism
John deere is going to ruin a good thing over the simple issue of greed.
Troy Brownrigg it’s every tractor company
@@steveirwinproductions2018 correction, it's basically every company.
@Don Olypopper My buddy just replaced the engine in his own car. It didn't seem like the federal government did anything to stop him. What kinds of repairs is the federal government stopping? If you're talking about regulations that restrict one's ability to avoid pollution control laws isn't that a good thing?
@Don Olypopper Yeah car enthusiasts have been dealing with that lately
@Don Olypopper The government requires manufacturers to provide a standardized OBD port on their cars so that generic OBC readers can connect to the cars diagnostic information. In the early days of computers in cars car manufacturers attempted to make diagnostic equipment sales a profit center by using proprietary diagnostic interfaces. The government forced them to stop doing this. But maybe tractor manufacturers have no such requirement and that is one of the issues here? You can't get read their diagnostic data unless you have their diagnostic equipment? If that's the case that must be really annoying to the people that own those tractors. There is also the issue of the companies trying to prevent the use of after market and used repair parts by electronically monitoring them and not allowing the tractor to start if those repair parts are detected. Is that one of the major issues? I was fully prepared to be outraged at John Deere after I read the article. I just didn't think I knew enough to sustain much outrage.
It's a proven and well known fact that Car manufacturers and dealerships make more money from after sales spares and repairs/services than on the car itself.
I have no doubt farm machinery is in the same category and would be crapping themselves at the thought of having to give up repair and diagnostic exclusivity.
It's seriously unethical behaviour on the part off major tech dealers these days.
John Deer, GM, Toyota, Nisan, Mitsushitty, Apple, Microsoft....
Actually the fact that Apple and MS reps turned up to the meeting just shows how deeply this whole Romney skimming racket goes.
Hope the bill goes through and the rest of the world follows.
i don't know if car manufacturers make more money from spares (since there is a wide range of chineese/aftermarket parts) but what i do know for sure is that CAT (caterpillar) makes more money from spares then say from their front end loaders
Not true. Most cars are not fixed at the dealership; they're fixed at 3rd party mechanics (jiffy lube, etc) and newer cars today are only taken to dealerships for tune ups and recalls that are usually almost entirely free for the car owner. If you knew anything about car repair you'd know how simple it is to hook up a scan tool, find the error code, and find solutions to how to fix it online. Most parts are also much cheaper to order third-party as well like Amazon (though I don't recommend it)
This is obviously completely different for those Farmers in this video though. It's not nearly as easy as hooking up an obd-2 and scanning for codes. It's also much easier with this obfuscation of diagnostic tools for manufacturers to implement planned obscelesence, though I doubt that is the case very often.
That's why I don't fuck with cars post 2000
The thing about the car industry is that cars have always had a history of DIY repair so entire industries sprouted around car modification so whatever the manufacturer might try to do to stop DIY, these other industries have professional engineers working to make these cars accessible again. Plus car companies are chock full of car enthusiasts themselves so many of them at least want the cars to be accessible to a degree. That and cars that are too complicated are harder for techs to work on.
@@MuseR. modern FRS and Miata are very DIY tho
8:50 Louis Rossmann cameo!
Louis Rossmann casually chilling in the back😂😂
You would think John deer wouldn't be dickdeads to hardworking farmers guess they don't care at all
John Deere is especially bad when it comes to sharing information in the world of heavy equipment.
CarEnthusiast I’m a JD tech and I have no problem sharing infos with all my customers.
@Jacob Strutner sorry man, we aren't talking about airing up tires here or sweeping out the cab. Even though on some cars you need to reset info if you do major tire work. All major repairs on this type of new equipment require access to computers and software. Even lots of small repairs. Even some updates do, and technically I suppose that an update isn't even a repair.
All about dat $money$
@@ifyoutip often you don't need a Service tool to repair a tractor. Onboard diagnostics show you codes, that you can look up in your operators manual and give you an idea of where to look. Having the computer is more for updating software and the convenience of the technician working on the problem. Most failures are still of a mechanical part.
Shame on John Deere.
Chuck Keough This modern day,Nazis.
It's not just Deere, many other companies do this crap. Motorola has been doing this since the early 80's when they started manufacturing Synthesized programmable 2-way radios and having their own high proprietary software to service a radio or reprogram it. It's not 2018 and there are people out there that have hacked Motorola software(s) and wrote their own to enable locked features on radios that were locked by the factory. Motorola does not like it but that cannot do much to stop it either.
Greed never wins in the end.
This is sensationalized. JD uses J1939 which is a universal standard for diagnostic messages. And they have an easy accessible port to get the codes out right next to the seat. Also the repair manuals are available for all the tractors. What these guys are complaining about is they have to hack together their own CAN Bus cable because JD won't sell them one. Plus I am assuming they are refering to the actual can bus reader. Well JD doesn't even make the ones they use. Go buy any of the off the shelf products (they are expensive) or hack one together with an arduino like these guys for a few bucks.
The only thing they can't do is turn on/off features because they requires reprogramming. This is the same for trucks and cars. You install a trailer kit on your 2010 Ford F150, you will have to have it turned on at the dealer. You won't ever get access to modify the source code, not because JD/CNH/AGCO/Ford hates you, but because they don't want to get sued when the safety features that are required by law are disabled.
They keep referring to the ability to diagnosis and repair, but then claim rulings that prevent modification of source code. Google J1939-73 and DTCs. Its all easily spelled out. Yes JD does use some custom codes outside of the standard ones. Gonna have to plop the $55 on the service manual where they are available.
Sorry for the rant. I am one of those guys that wrote all that code for multiple companies in my career and get tired of people like this that think we don't have to go through years of testing and that over 90% of what I do is to help diagnose problems and to ensure the vehicle reacts predictably to issues that happen on .0001% of all vehicle with that code. But I mean, go ahead and dive into the multiple layer peer reviewed, thousands of hours of verification and testing, third party verified, 4 million lines of code and dig around. This isn't a website, its code that controls a 16 ton tank driving down the road.
Makes me feel better, John Deere is an American institution, kinda like apple pie and baseball.
Shame on people who buy their products, knowing what the situation would be if/when it broke down. It's no secret that things that man builds can break, but being told that I have the right to buy and pay for a machine, but not the right to look at or change the settings of how that machine that I paid for will work? I don't think so. I'll spend my money on a more user-friendly machine. To hell with JD for building machines that they KNOW are going to let the customer down and then force the customer to pay deere-ly to get fixed.
All the best of luck. Up here in Canada we are trying to accomplish the same thing, and yes, we want it for everything. Phones, cars, dishwashers and all the other stuff that is piling up in landfill, while our wallets are screaming about having to buy new things all the time because to get some small thing repaired at a dealership is quite likely to cost you more than buying a new thing. I want the right, and the ability (parts, tools, diagnostics) to fix things myself and to hang onto things as long as possible.
On a small farm of 4300 acres we average over $100,000 in equipment repairs alone annually and a lot of that comes from labor costs.
And this why i hate computers in equipment, vehicles, etc.
These new tractors will not run 50 or 60 years like the old ones.
We still use tractor my father bought in 70', even then it was USED, he bought it for about 2k€ and the maintaince since then still hasn't even come close to the price he bought it for...No computer, no pile of shit features you don't need, just a reliable machine doing what its made for. Something is wrong? Basically in 99% of these cases, we can fix the said problem on the field with no special equipment needed
Same here.
I mean, if we didn't over complicate this software and made it open source, we probably wouldn't have this issue. It's ironic that the point of computerized machines is to make things easier and more efficient then before! Sadly companies use it to screw over the consumer.
NoobSkillz Gaming we actually have two tractors that are from ‘79-‘83 and they are both in good condition and they are pretty damn easy to use one has a few problems but the both work and are used quite often. The have no computer software or anything like that just levers and like two buttons (the start switch and pto switch)
They do this with everything. Stove, frig, dishwasher, etc. etc. I see dozens of these in the dump that are only a few years old because the computer failed and was cheaper to buy new that to fix that shit. One family got a new washer and dryer. They did not have a plug in for the dryer so it sat for three years. when I get it plugged in and turned it on the computer was dead from the factory. The store said could not get that model any more as was discontinued. they paid $1500 for that shit and never use it once.
This was quality content about something I know nothing about. I hope you will continue making videos like this one.
My argument would be. When i buy something do I own it? Yes..
Can I fix, change, or mod something I own; if it doesn't break the law. Yeah you can..
Is it the dealers job to police the people who purchase there products and make sure they are repaired correctly? No..
If a person has modded there tractor and is unsafe it's up to the cops and surrounding people to report such unsafe behavior. Not the dealership
To me it seems like the dealership is more the owner than the owner them self's.
This really burns my bread. I got this list of do's and don'ts emailed to me when I moved into this apartment last minute. One of the don'ts "do not attempt to repair your car in the parking lot... You will be promptly towed.." really?! My damn car blew up 2 months later and I KNEW it was coming. I'm still mad as hell, I spent so much time working on that car. It's in a dang ole crusher now.
9:05 That's Louis Rossman the Mac repair guy lol
I noticed him as well. I wonder what he was doing there?
The meeting was relevant to his business, he's a third party repair shop.
I was wondering if Louis knew about this, then saw this comment... Lol he's so on it.
oh shit it is i didnt even notice him at first.
Yeah, I remember him live streaming this. He was so pumped up about the implications of this bill 😄
Farmers hacking their tractors and going into depth about network interface cables and sensors, something you would expect to read in a William Gibson novel
Denying right to repair creates hackers not the other way around.
Had the same issues with my Volvo Transport Truck. So obviously designed to keep the repairs in-house and it had serious problems constantly.
same thing with cars nowaday, let us fix it. open and free diagnosis software or you cant sell your product
Free or not, there should be legislation in place to force manufacturers to inform consumers that there is Software "available" for them to run a simple diagnostics. You have your dashboard with information, why then shouldn't you be allowed to have a simple (limited) software to diagnose against optimal parameters and register a replacement part?
AFAIK, there was already an agreement for third-party auto shops to this effect - manufacturers had to agree to share software and diagnostic information with them for free (before, they would often only share it with dealerships).
But that agreement stopped short of including the general public - and only applied to cars.
Still, that small victory is partly why there's so much hope.
Veikra you realize almost every single car even old ones have an ECU to control all the shit
A lot of manufacturers are very open with their software, but there's usually a several year gap before normal people can reasonably get their hands on the diagnostic software unless you have a scan tool subscription which is very pricey.
Veikra Since the Asian manufacturing revolution that started with the Japanese in the 80's, this is basically how manufacturers like this actually make money. There is very little money to be made in the sale. It's the nature of the beast. John Deere seems reasonable. They are open to new ideas but this kind of stuff will put dealers out of business and hurt the American manufacturing sector.
It's essentially easier to buy old iron and outfit it with the minimal creature comforts and needs than to operate new plastic. And i've seen it done in plenty of places.
aserta trucking industry is going the same direction. Now you can't even buy a glider kit cus government is outlawing it by 2020.
That was Obama's EPA. If this hasn't been changed already, you should write the Trump administration because they may repeal that shit.
There are small displacement gas engine vehicles from the 80's that get over 40 MPG. If you get hit by one of these modern SUVs, you're fucked though.
my grandfather still uses tractors from the mid 60s and the 70s quite often.
This is basically why I bought a 67 vw bug as my first car, I live in Venezuela this is turning in to cuba, everyone was like "you can buy a 2008 car with air conditioning with that money" and i was like "yeah, no" I don't know shit about mechanics and I'm learning on this car everything is pretty simple and it works, and I know that I will run this car until madmax apocalypse. newer cars parts are harder to find and imposible to buy with my salary but I can still afford repairs of my old little bug.
farmers we need in this last days to supply our food its great blessing kept safe all
its a shame, that we even have to discuss about that
Why would Apple care? Because they would have to let people actually *FIX* their hardware! Instead of buying _NEW_ hardware. This is a *MASSIVE* known problem with their laptops. You can't get any information from Apple about the motherboard or how to fix it. They will tell you that your *$1000* laptop has to be replaced when a *$6* component fails! This is a terrible practice and needs to be stopped. It's gotten to the point now that you don't even own your own hardware! You're just licensed to use it! What a world we live in where you can't modify something you paid for.
Keenan Conner I agree with that if we are only licensed to us it they should have to repair it free. I don’t know if it is true but. It sure seems like after Apples new version comes out they want you to up date your device a few times. To get the bugs out they put in. Now your older device does not work so good any more. Than in a few more years the software won’t support the old device. Than you have to get a new one
It's been proven that in most places you legally can open your own hardware and fix it, it's not legal to void a warranty. The companies say it is but it's not legal, even if you open it and break the tamper seal they legally can't reject your warranty claim unless you've damaged something. They know that it's illegal and have been taken to court and lost, but they also know the average consumer isn't going to know this or both taking them to court. A kind of legal loophole that needs to be shut down.
Been repairing my own apple products for years. It's all online!
Hardly! I hate having to go to sketchy russian forums for my board diagrams.
Late capitalism at its finest. A forced obsolescence and surplus that hurts the advancement of society and consumers. It's only great for the real customer, the shareholders. We are just seen as cattle.
It's called VENDOR LOCK and it's completely malicious. Richard Stallman etc saw this coming. They were laughed at.
Install gentoo.
Stallman is a hack fraud that piggybacked on the achievements of Linus Torvalds.
Or when you spend 400,000+ on some of these peices of equipment you buy the extra 1,500 dollar service advisor 5 that gives you more diagnostic data then most on here could comprehend........and when you do need you ecu reflashed or a new one loaded with a payload you walk over to the service department and they bench flash it for you in a half an hour.........some might even do it for free cause the downloads are free
Anton Zuykov
Fine. But they made it so you can't run the hardware without the software. Take Apple for instance. Until recently if you replace the screen on your phone with a aftermarket vendor because he didn't have a week to wait for the APPLE AUTHORIZED TECH to send it back to Apple and then send it back to you because he was not authorized to fix it. Apple would brick your phone.
Imagine changing the windshield because of crack on your car. Then one morning you can't start your car after you put in a new safelite glass. Why? Chevy , Ford or whoever decided you have to have the original windshield before your car can start.
That's bullnuts.
Update: Apple backpedaled and stop doing that recently realizing they pissed off a lot of customers.
Well like the video said.... the software will keep you from replacing hardware components because it wont recognize them without their JD software which you have no access to unless you have a JD service tech come with a JD laptop. It is an arbitrary and frankly malicious roadblock on their part. If it was me I would be damn sure the next tractor I bought wasn't JD for that reason alone.
Pass this bill for the right to diagnose and repair ! The government never prepared for the computer age and how to regulate it as if we were still in the pre technology era. Thank you farmers for your service !!!!!
Thanks for all the content, put off watching this for like 3 months. HAHAHA
Huge problem in medical equipment. I work in medical missions in the developing world and this can be very difficult where we have little or no source for parts except manufacturer... Disgusting.
Oh, yeah, the maintenance problem is a big ripoff! If you need something to be recalibrated,or just to yearly do the maintenance, for example in a elecronic manufacturing company you send out the unit to the authorized lab which need to have a licence from the original company, and this ripoff costs for a spectrum analyzer 20k.BTW the lab does nothing, just gives you the results that everything is OK! You could do this in house too but you're not authorized! Everyone needs a slice from the pie! And they're just keep pulling you down, no matter what!
If the argument you are trying to make is for personal medical devices then I think you have the right to repair it as with any other thing you own; it is your life (assuming the device is critical/diagnostic). If the argument you are trying to make is for medical devices that service multiple people then I agree you shouldn't have the right to repair. No offense to you or your skills, but I wouldn't want joe shmo fixing an MRI machine that is used to diagnose potentially fatal illnesses just because he thinks he can save a buck. Or a defibrillator, .etc. If you mess up, it has a trickle down effect to everyone who potentially uses the device. Medical devices are held to a different standard than consumer devices, because if they fail... lawsuits, death, .etc.
FD, perhaps you missed the "missions in the developing world" part. They don't have access to proper servicing or parts, and not being able to jerry-rig it only means guaranteed deaths instead of at least having a chance.
@@chad_bro_chill I did miss it. Sorry
S'all good mang
buying the machine should include the software end of story. Anything else is simply extortion.
same with phones, game consoles and tablets, Remember the Red Ring of death from the xbox 360? yeah, turns out all microsoft did was reset the OS, but you werent allowed to or able to do it yourself, you had to send yoru xbox off to microsoft and pay like 90 bucks to get it fixed
Car and equipment dealers make their living via this "extortion" you speak of, how are you going to change that?
7:41 The tractor changes haha..
8:51, heey! that's Louis rossmann in the background
I own a farm, got 3 tractors in varying sizes, all of them 30+ years old and works great still!. They really built well these old hunks of metal, old tractors can last 100 years. Its a shame all these new tractors have so much unnecessary tech on them that forces to average farmer to go to a dealership.
Yeah, old stuff *just f-ing works* forever, none of this unnecessary electronic BS.
Regulations are a major factor that drove manufacturers to deploy such technology.
I guess this is part of the old cause and effect rule.
They are a lot simple to maintain. and reliable.
Jack Benimble- I farm, co-own it with my dad and we are the only two employees on the farm. Between me and him we split about 90k annual income between us both. Ideally the size of our farm needs another hand but that means we'd have to split it 3 ways. I guess that's average farming 30-40k annual income, feels like low pay actually for back breaking work. The farmers with huge $300,000 Combine Harvesters and Row Crop Tractors that cost more than a super car are not your average farmer. They're industrial farmers and they are 'big timing' as you say, probably make $500,000+ annually, and have a dozen employees.
All modern tech is designed to to fail because they want you to replace not repair. Old tech was designed to last forever.
Right to Repair is the reason I want Tesla to fail. They won't even sell body parts to anybody but an authorized service center. You can only buy a service manual in MA because of MA laws.
They're like apple, overpriced, over engineered, starts breaking after warranty expires.
Jace Purdy powerful batteries for their 100k sports car. Their new 35k model don’t even go past 300 miles a charge. And it drops 30-40% when the weather gets colder
@@williehawaii9967 this is battery chemistry, if *anyone* finds a much better technology, you'll win a nobel prize. Also those batteries are dangerous if damaged, selling fire-bombs to random people could end in lawsuits.
lociiInsight that isn’t battery chemistry that’s fraud. Elon promised a model 3 with 350 miles when it first came out for preorders. Now we find out it doesn’t even reach 300
@@williehawaii9967 i was referring to the temperature issue mostly, but the range is a product of the attempts to increase battery life
My newest Deere is a 6105R tractor. I am able to see the diagnostic codes on the display. My previous 6220's I was also able to see codes on the dash. With these codes and the service manuals from Deere I have been able to repair multiple electrical/electronic problems with my tractors. I have not had a need to connect a laptop to any of them. Doesn't all of Deere's (more modern) equipment have these diagnostic codes available on either the screen or the dash? If so what's the laptop for? Thanks
Keepin' it real down on the farm.
I love the lady who says that if it were to pass the big companies just won't sell or ship to that state. Good luck with that. You might want to give a heads up to your PR dept before going through with that. There are plenty of companies that have sunk for less.
That's exactly what I thought. I couldn't believe a major corporation would send someone so stupid to a public hearing and make major anti-consumer statements like that.
John Deere has been playing this game since the 1980's. Get big or get out is their motto and they have even been driving their own dealers to merge, get bigger or loose the franchise since that time. In the early 1980's there were 5 JD dealers in a 45 mile are I lived in. Now there are 2, and in many places its much less than that.
Sorry my grammar was so bad in my post. Was past my bed time! LOL. Just wanted to say I found out it is down to 1 dealer in the area I grew up in. I'm not picking on Deere either since CaseIH is just as bad.
Govt should sponsor an Open Source Truck manufacturing, a company which makes trucks and releases everything (Circuit diagrams, mechanical drawings, ..etc) online, more farmers would buy that, even if its a bit more expensive than others
Micromanufacturing will kill all those monopolists. And good.
To be fair, they've actually been playing this game since the 50's. Merging dealers was going on in my state of MI for a long time. As far as the Right to Repair concept, I understand it from the POV of the owner, however, those dealerships need to exist too. It's a careful balance that JD has not done a good job of balancing.
I'm late to the discussion but you want to talk about a messed up company? Caterpillar is way worse than John Deere something as simple as not using a CAT branded bolt on a piece of equipment can void all warranties.
I drove a McCormick Farmall Cub many years ago at a summer camp I worked at.
I would say a big key to this would be environmentalist backing. It changed the automotive industry drastically. During the mid-90s a common diagnostic protocol for all vehicles was established to allow mechanics 2 keep emission standards on Vehicles being serviced and repaired in independent shops.OBD2 allowed cars being repaired at independent automotive shops to maintain admission standards. They allowed the dealers to restrict your access to all the bells and whistles but engine control modules and transmission brakes another items were available in the aftermarket.
Sounds like there is a market for some "open source" tractor software
Michael Tardrew sounds like there’s a market for non-computerised tractors
this, i'm in the state where this report was filmed, and farmers here often go to estate sales or forclosure auctions FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of buying old 80's and early 90s tractors, they wont bother with new tractors for this very reason,
Non-computerized would be great, but federal emissions laws require electronic controls. There's a lot of safety stuff, and actually a lot of automation on stuff like that combine, all needs computer controls on the machine.
We could step back in time to the non-electronic stuff, but there's actually an efficiency loss to using it.
Kiboe is right there, though. If repair costs cancel out the efficiency gain (sometimes they do), then it's cheaper to run the old stuff. This is actually why so many older semi trucks are being rebuilt and put into service by independent over the road truckers - the newer trucks with DPF systems break constantly. Any diesel that requires DEF is less reliable than a pre-DPF truck. There are a lot of companies that delete the systems illegally, simply because they can't afford the $4000-$7000 repair bill that the shitty emissions system hits them with when it breaks every 3-6 months. After the delete and required re-tune (and you see this on light duty trucks that have the same done), you get more power and better fuel economy. Add in not having to spend money on DEF, or repairs to the DPF system, and the fact that most states you don't really risk getting caught deleting, and there's almost no good reason NOT to delete.
That's dumb, let them fix their own equipment!!
It's not their equipment! Just like Windows 10 isn't your OS! You're simply paying to use them.
enticed2zeitgeist can't compare with W10 or any full software product
enticed2zeitgeist
Your copy of Windows is YOURS, the tricky part is to prove you didn't modify it for, or simply re-distributed. As long as it stays in a machine it was bought for/first installed in, it is 100% yours (tricky again, for your own use). You are mislead by IP legislation: if you buy a piece of artwork, you can still do whatever you want with it "as long as" you don't "somehow" adversely affect the potential sales of the product or infringe their rights of exclusive ownership of the ideas implemented. Therefore, if this software is kept off other people and does not, in an altered form, affect their brand/quality, no one can tease you with any license.
You are told it is a License, because it's easier for software developers to justify the distribution of almost entirely identical copies, to totally different consumers who would thus be unable to claim any right transferred, over the same copy. So the issue is "multiplication".
Frankly, some legislation made upon copyrights, is unconstitutional for a great deal of countries, by penalizing individuals who didn't make a profit from redistribution of entirely identical copies. If you wrote a book and someone was reading it over a radio broadcast that might seem illegal, especially if there's any form of profit for the station, but if one wouldn't claim authorship (mention the author), denature the content under the said authorship, nor make money by broadcasting that content, then the only real infringement would be "distribution without the consent of the author" and that is when "lost sales" could be sought. The fact is, digital copies, forced unnatural methods (laws) to protect the rights of the creators, like royalties and things like that.
They bought the equipment with software installed because, the Manufacturers FIRSTLY "mislead" the customers into believing their products were "better" than other/previous equipment. The machinery is automated and requires software to work "as advertised", therefore it IS included in the purchase along with the Tractor.
I can't believe such profanity of legislation was pushed in the USA. The only instrument of punishment is Voiding the Warranty of the said equipment. IP has nothing to do with registering a new part (hardware) into the tractor computer. DMCA punishing consumers over their own hardware maintenance. Fking ridiculous!
No, literally, you don't own a copy of Windows 10. Microsoft has full control over it.
It really is. I know I live in a different continent all together, but I've never seen restriction like this before. That's pretty retarded. Most farmers don't have top of the line new models, and even if they did, they wouldn't be paying for servicing and repair at the dealer, it would be way too expensive and they don't have the finances to that as most of commercial farmers are already struggling.
My brother in law doesn't have a tractor younger than 10 years or much older. Why? Not because he couldn't buy them, but because he is actually able to service, repair and rebuild older tractors without struggling to do so. And the older models don't lack performance.
I work at a golf course. Every 3 years we get brand new mowers and brand new Gators on lease from John Deere. We’re sponsored so we get it cheap and they’ll repair most things. But we only have one tractor made after the 80s. One 2010 or so Kubota, to operate one specific piece of machinery, and the rest old John Deere tractors. They’re fantastic. Would never get newer ones
Old is Gold.
This is why I never and will never buy any tractor that was built after 1981. All my stuff is pre-81 and older, the oldest tractor I have on the property is a 1950s TD-6 and D-8.
Who would have thought that something 50 years older would be less hassle to keep running. Improvements in technology are supposed to move us forward, but it's only moving corporations forward.
@@dpla9752 Right!?
I kid you not, the only tools thus far I've had to use on the D8, and TD-6 to completely rebuild them/maintain them is a 3/4 - 1" drive socket set, cheater bar, big mamma ratchet, stick welder, a wrench set, some metal files, heavy duty chain, and a big ass hammer....
Today you need an entire workshop filled with CNC milling machines, high tech $20+K computers and software, thousands of dollars worth of odd ball tools, and a bunch of other things.
Do you farm anything?
@@kaljamaha3412 No, haven't for 15 years now... Mainly a logger and construction worker as well as contracting out machinery to do work projects.
@@mr.techaky7655 ok thanks and i live on a dairy farm but i think were are going to end it because its not worth it anymore
That's the country we live in they have to pass a law in order for you to work on your own equipment that you paid your hard-earned money for don't you just love America
I'm gonna need a citation on that. Otherwise you're just hating on the Winner
Youre allowed to work on it, the problem is there is propietary software and equipment required for the repair that you cant acess
Johnny V baby, actually there leasing it, even though there buying it, there Screwing the Farmers, it's not right, start finding people to Hack in there Equipment, gotta do what you gotta Do
How is capitalism at fault? In a true Free Market were the Government doesn't enforce monopolies anybody could develop the diagnostic software for the tractors and sell it to the farmers. The way it works now, if a independent firm tried to develop and sell the software, they would get sued and big daddy government would use the police to either arrest them or make em pay. Yeah so much for "capitalism" being at fault, sounds more like shitty as laws getting enforced by our lord and savoir big daddy government.
Johnny V baby, actually there just leasing it, even though they paid out the Butt for there equipment, makes you sick watching them getting screwed, you don't need John Deere if it's an older model, to me Find someone to Hack there system
John Deere is overpriced crap with everything proprietary.
Buy Kubota, Mahindra, Messy, Case just tons of much better options out there.
Nitesh Kumar but it’s green
but also for some people in remote areas John Deere may be the only company with a dealership within 2 hours, and during intensive times where shit needs to get done we can't afford to drive 5 hours for a belt for a combine just because the cat dealership is the only place where u can get em
So true, wen ever my dad get suggestions on a new tractor an he asks the model an they say John Deer, my immediately says no they don't work
the older john deeres are pretty good tho
Nitesh Kumar are you even in USA 🇺🇸 it’s really sad to see ? Life digitally enforced and people who care less? Product pushers...
I started long ago and John Deere in it day.. I like John Deere But The electronic gadgetry? Fix it? With the Laptop?
Wyoming Cat in 1999 instructors taught much about the upcoming new machines post y2k
A John Deere 690B or a newer 690E? Or F?
Kubota? Ohhh da joyz of stick$