I am really looking forward to Legions Imperialis. I am slightly worried at how many models I may have to paint for a full 3000pts army, but I love the idea of bigger battles than possible at 28mm. I do have Titanicus and Aeronautica already as I have been hoping for an Epic reboot for a while.
I am VERY pumped over this game and thank you for your breakdown of possible points. One suggestion for us gamers in going in slowly, is to think in terms of 1500 points with perhaps team games. I have 5 other friends that are going to get into this and we might team up to help each other with rules, tactics, etc., while we ate painting and expanding our armies. This includes the fact that we all plan to have both a Loyalist AND and Traitor army. I will use them Space Marines of the Starter Box as Blood Angels and the Solar Auxilia as Cythonian Headhunters (traitors).
I'm thinking similar. I figure ill start to a 1k target for two armies on a 4x4 board. I've had some friends express interest but I enjoy having a complete game ready to go. I do think players will settle at a point total different to GWs recommended one but we'll have to see
Nice overview, some of their design choices are confusing (eg the "model" name thing, using the word detachment when 40k had a different meaning for it, the layout of the cards etc) so I'm a little worried the rules have been rushed a bit... but I love the mini designs so at the very least I'll enjoy collecting and painting one of each I guess!
Yeah, I suspect it will be. I'm confident the boards will sell out fast, probably the terrain too, and I'd imagine the astartes will sell out faster than the solar auxilia. No doubt GW will estimate conservatively preferring to sell out than hold stock.
@@optimalgamestate I've seen a lot of comments about these boards across the Internet. I really don't understand why people would want them. A piece of cloth or maybe a gaming mat works just as well
@@torros1839 you're right, but there is something nice about the tactical nature of the board being a physical thing. The Necromunda boards are the closest example we have and they are super popular constantly selling out whenever they are released. Personally I have 2 boxes of them so 1 board too short for a 3x3 table >< but I think if I was starting over I would get a neoprene mat instead and be done with it.
Thanks for the balanced review, some good points ... I'm leaning towards Alpha Legion (who's side am I on? Everyone and no ones!) Or maybe Imperial Fiats, there isn't really a Legion I don't like so that's going to be tough!
It will cost more than we think it should but we'll still order it first thing the morning preorders go up and feel lucky that we got it before it sold out 🙄
I’m totally gonna use LI as an opportunity to start a heresy iron warriors army. I love 40K but it’s a pain in the butt to make iron warriors be how I want them to be. And I don’t want to also play full size 30k as I don’t have the room for more normal size models. So LI seems like the best of all the things I want :)
I think they could have made some of the weapon profiles easier to read by having separate profiles for vehicles or infantry. Might be a bit easier to read than having to pay attention to the weapon traits and seeing how they modify the profile based on target. Looking forward to this game, mini models are great.
That's true. Maybe we should be stacking all our light weapons together or something like that. It might also be interesting telling the differences between the tiny models. "You thought these were Assault Marines? No these guys all have Plasma Guns, now time to die"
Yeah I saw an example done up on an epic discord and it looked much easier to read. Something like: weapon. range. dice. to hit. AP Inf/Veh. Traits battlecannon. 32". 1. 4+. 0/-2. Armourbane heavy bolter. 12". 2. 5+. 0/-- Arc (front), Point defense lascannon. 24". 1. 4+. 0/-1. Arc (front) Gets rid of a few traits like anti-tank and whatever the anti infantry ones will be. The tiny models will be interesting, I have some of the original Epic Space Marines, and you can definitely tell the difference (well you could if I hadn't blobbed all the paint on). These ones will be a big bigger, so I think should be ok.
I am sure like most of their books they will specify in the rules a base = a model. A lot of the terms people are currently confused by should be no worry after a full read.
I think I would prefer the firefight mechanic from Epic 40k over a close combat phase. 5x4 seems way to small. I can't remember the playing Epic on anything less than a 6x4 and the majority of the time 8x5 to allow some manoeuvre room
Definitely something I'd want to try at least XD It'll be interesting to see how the meta will play out. If you know your opponent is going to take a Warlord do you take Titan killers to take it down or just focus on Infantry and take objectives while the Warlord can only Plasma Annihilator 5 Space Marines at a time XD
So are the armies in the starter box two space marine armies with solar auxillia allies and a titan or a space marine force with a titan and a solar auxillia force with titan. I supose we could run it either way but i wonder what the intended set up is.
I think it's a Space Marine Force + Titan and Solar Auxilia Force + Titan. Otherwise the 70/30 percentages for main force and support don't work. That does mean we wouldn't be able to field the entire box as a single army unless they (hopefully) give us a special formation.
They should be part of the GW release once it comes out. www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/26/the-new-legions-imperialis-terrain-is-the-perfect-backdrop-for-an-epic-throwdown/
I had a look around to see if I could work out who was doing the rules. I thought maybe James Hewitt as he xid such a great job with Titanicus. I don't think he is but he did mention in an interview that the Titanicus rules had been drafted to do epic as well which is interesting. Andy Hoare does seem to be the lead with the heresy team which is encouraging as he's been taking good care of Necromunda
It'll be interesting to see how Titans work in LI. It sounds like they're going to dual support and if they're reboxing the Titans we might see the terminals (and maybe even cards) go into the box which would be great. If LI is a success it might even get us more toys for AT!
@@geeksworkshop I mostly agree. I suspect there will be a formation in the box that lets you run everything, either as a split or as a combined single force. The box does kind of showcase everything which is good in theory, but means you end up with tons unused and makes me less interested in getting a second box. I think a perfect starter for me would remove the Warhounds, take away the Auxilia and be two armies of Space Marines I could combine into a single force.
@@optimalgamestate The best way I can describe the box is an introduction box. An introduction into gluing 8mm models together. Get your tweezers ready! I really hope it does well, but don't think it's off to the best start. They are repackaging all the titans and knights on top on whatever is happening with the new stuff. I totally agree marine vs marine would have been a much better jump off point. The box art implies the forces are together, when you can't field most of it together.
😂I know I know, it's a bad habit from before the days of audiobooks and proper pronunciation guides. To me he'll always be that imperial commander with the cybron-osmotic gill after the acid storms on Susa!
New Epic rules pretty subpar, this game has seemed to have ripped a lot out of first epic (space marine) with similar orders and CAF for melee combat, you have to declare orders for everything at the start of the turn so this game won't have the tactical flexibility of Epic Armageddon where you can hold back elements of your force until later in the turn to be able to pivot to react say to a thunderhawk assualt or teleport attack. Rules look pretty dumbed down. Also saw scale comparisons with predators and there is no way both scales can exist in the same force, at lot of existing Epic players are looking at this and going thanks but no thanks. GW really dropped the ball in not accomediating most of the existing player base. Epic Armageddon is in my opinion the best ruleset GW ever released and it wouldn't surprise me at all if people buying into the new scale of minitures end up playing Epic Armageddon rules instead where I think your 3000 point army will look a bit more sensible compared to what GW have planned in the new rules.
Yeah, I think if you were a NetEA player this release is bittersweet. The game you love is finally getting supported, but it's not the game you love, and there's a good chance it'll suck the air out of the old community. Personally, the last time I played was with Space Marine so I'm happy enough to see the orders return. The scale one is interesting. The old scaling was to be honest a complete mess, with models using different scales across categories (e.g. tanks used one scale, infantry another, titans another again). If they had released the game with a scale to match the old epic models, I think the current Titanicus and Aeronautica players would have been furious. On the flip side, infantry are just bases and if your tanks look consistent then it's probably going to be fine.
I think they should have gone 3mm instead. ok, price tag would have ended the same as smaller miniatures but you'd need more of them, but for the lore and setting, being able to actually field droves of titans, you really need to go down in scale. plus it would remove many gritty details, on that scale who cares if the foot sloggers are terminators with hammers or devastator marines, they are all insignificant ants anyway. also the rules seem very close to 2nd edition epic, which I played as a kid and enjoyed a lot, but it took a LOOOOONG time to play. Not looking forward to 6+ hour games nowadays!
"Its gonna be a very expensive game" 🤣 no sh@t its games workshop. Jokes on them a 3d print is pretty cheap and worth the investment over buy multiple boxes.
Ha! I should have said, "This is going to be expensive, even by GW standards" I have loved all the armies getting painted over the last few months. The delay did leave a nice resin shaped hole that people have happily filled.
@@optimalgamestate you should look into Imperial Dominatus, its a fan made version of 30k epic, the only bad side is it was designed for mass battles and the infantry amount is crazy. But a fun version that is easy to understand and games are faster.
1) It's not on the scale of a real Warhammer , so it doesn't fit to my Curiously Assembled Collection. 2) This is the Horse Heresy, the least interesting settnig. I'll pass with a slight regret that the Games Workshop could have spent these resources on improving the real Warhammer.
Funny you should say that, for some the old epic scale is the only true scale to play 40k at. The 28mm heroic just cant capture the massive scale of these battles. Each to their own, I'm happy to play at all scales.
I am really looking forward to Legions Imperialis. I am slightly worried at how many models I may have to paint for a full 3000pts army, but I love the idea of bigger battles than possible at 28mm. I do have Titanicus and Aeronautica already as I have been hoping for an Epic reboot for a while.
I am VERY pumped over this game and thank you for your breakdown of possible points. One suggestion for us gamers in going in slowly, is to think in terms of 1500 points with perhaps team games. I have 5 other friends that are going to get into this and we might team up to help each other with rules, tactics, etc., while we ate painting and expanding our armies. This includes the fact that we all plan to have both a Loyalist AND and Traitor army. I will use them Space Marines of the Starter Box as Blood Angels and the Solar Auxilia as Cythonian Headhunters (traitors).
I'm thinking similar. I figure ill start to a 1k target for two armies on a 4x4 board. I've had some friends express interest but I enjoy having a complete game ready to go. I do think players will settle at a point total different to GWs recommended one but we'll have to see
Great insight and review of info. I am super excited for this as I was already collecting and own a crap ton of titans. Cannot wait for release.
I Love AT, so I'll be running a few Titans from time to time
Nice overview, some of their design choices are confusing (eg the "model" name thing, using the word detachment when 40k had a different meaning for it, the layout of the cards etc) so I'm a little worried the rules have been rushed a bit... but I love the mini designs so at the very least I'll enjoy collecting and painting one of each I guess!
Thanks for covering this - really looking forward to it, just hoping it's not going to be one of those 'blink and you miss it' releases......
Yeah, I suspect it will be. I'm confident the boards will sell out fast, probably the terrain too, and I'd imagine the astartes will sell out faster than the solar auxilia. No doubt GW will estimate conservatively preferring to sell out than hold stock.
@@optimalgamestate I've seen a lot of comments about these boards across the Internet. I really don't understand why people would want them. A piece of cloth or maybe a gaming mat works just as well
@@torros1839 you're right, but there is something nice about the tactical nature of the board being a physical thing. The Necromunda boards are the closest example we have and they are super popular constantly selling out whenever they are released. Personally I have 2 boxes of them so 1 board too short for a 3x3 table >< but I think if I was starting over I would get a neoprene mat instead and be done with it.
Thanks for the balanced review, some good points ... I'm leaning towards Alpha Legion (who's side am I on? Everyone and no ones!) Or maybe Imperial Fiats, there isn't really a Legion I don't like so that's going to be tough!
Excellent choice. I was thinking of going for Imperial Fists and Iron Legion for that classic stand-off. Hopefully it's not crazy expensive 😅
Curious about this, played v2 epic space marine as a kid and loved it. Not keen on GW nowadays as it is extremely expensive but we'll see.
Air Assaults, Drop pods!, Thunderhawks!, oh JoY!
I honestly wish they would tell us the prices of the box set. Its kind of infuriating not knowing if I will buy it or not.
It will cost more than we think it should but we'll still order it first thing the morning preorders go up and feel lucky that we got it before it sold out 🙄
I’m totally gonna use LI as an opportunity to start a heresy iron warriors army. I love 40K but it’s a pain in the butt to make iron warriors be how I want them to be. And I don’t want to also play full size 30k as I don’t have the room for more normal size models. So LI seems like the best of all the things I want :)
Gosh, imma need to bust out the 3d printer for this!
I think they could have made some of the weapon profiles easier to read by having separate profiles for vehicles or infantry. Might be a bit easier to read than having to pay attention to the weapon traits and seeing how they modify the profile based on target. Looking forward to this game, mini models are great.
That's true. Maybe we should be stacking all our light weapons together or something like that. It might also be interesting telling the differences between the tiny models. "You thought these were Assault Marines? No these guys all have Plasma Guns, now time to die"
Yeah I saw an example done up on an epic discord and it looked much easier to read. Something like:
weapon. range. dice. to hit. AP Inf/Veh. Traits
battlecannon. 32". 1. 4+. 0/-2. Armourbane
heavy bolter. 12". 2. 5+. 0/-- Arc (front), Point defense
lascannon. 24". 1. 4+. 0/-1. Arc (front)
Gets rid of a few traits like anti-tank and whatever the anti infantry ones will be.
The tiny models will be interesting, I have some of the original Epic Space Marines, and you can definitely tell the difference (well you could if I hadn't blobbed all the paint on). These ones will be a big bigger, so I think should be ok.
I am sure like most of their books they will specify in the rules a base = a model. A lot of the terms people are currently confused by should be no worry after a full read.
I think I would prefer the firefight mechanic from Epic 40k over a close combat phase. 5x4 seems way to small. I can't remember the playing Epic on anything less than a 6x4 and the majority of the time 8x5 to allow some manoeuvre room
If possible i would like to make a titan legio with solar auxilia as support… but we will see soon enough if that route is possible
I think people will run a warlord though. Or a warmaster. Hopefully my iconoclast gets to see some action. Lol
Definitely something I'd want to try at least XD It'll be interesting to see how the meta will play out. If you know your opponent is going to take a Warlord do you take Titan killers to take it down or just focus on Infantry and take objectives while the Warlord can only Plasma Annihilator 5 Space Marines at a time XD
So are the armies in the starter box two space marine armies with solar auxillia allies and a titan or a space marine force with a titan and a solar auxillia force with titan. I supose we could run it either way but i wonder what the intended set up is.
I think it's a Space Marine Force + Titan and Solar Auxilia Force + Titan. Otherwise the 70/30 percentages for main force and support don't work. That does mean we wouldn't be able to field the entire box as a single army unless they (hopefully) give us a special formation.
@@optimalgamestatethey confirmed on social media that the box comes with a special formation
what are those game tiles?
They should be part of the GW release once it comes out. www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/26/the-new-legions-imperialis-terrain-is-the-perfect-backdrop-for-an-epic-throwdown/
The game looks like it tries to learn something from all the previous versions. Whoever is testing this game, they have their hands full.
I had a look around to see if I could work out who was doing the rules. I thought maybe James Hewitt as he xid such a great job with Titanicus. I don't think he is but he did mention in an interview that the Titanicus rules had been drafted to do epic as well which is interesting. Andy Hoare does seem to be the lead with the heresy team which is encouraging as he's been taking good care of Necromunda
I hope this doesn’t kill off AT as a game
Seems like future AT supplements will be contained within future releases for LI
It'll be interesting to see how Titans work in LI. It sounds like they're going to dual support and if they're reboxing the Titans we might see the terminals (and maybe even cards) go into the box which would be great. If LI is a success it might even get us more toys for AT!
You can't even take all the marines in one army... Only one tank option and two units of tanks. They should have given us some transports in the box
I'm sure there will be lots of extra boxes for us to buy XD
@@optimalgamestate Terrible design for a boxed set. It's as if the people who designed it had never played the game or even built a list.
@@geeksworkshop I mostly agree. I suspect there will be a formation in the box that lets you run everything, either as a split or as a combined single force. The box does kind of showcase everything which is good in theory, but means you end up with tons unused and makes me less interested in getting a second box. I think a perfect starter for me would remove the Warhounds, take away the Auxilia and be two armies of Space Marines I could combine into a single force.
@@optimalgamestate The best way I can describe the box is an introduction box. An introduction into gluing 8mm models together. Get your tweezers ready! I really hope it does well, but don't think it's off to the best start. They are repackaging all the titans and knights on top on whatever is happening with the new stuff. I totally agree marine vs marine would have been a much better jump off point. The box art implies the forces are together, when you can't field most of it together.
Cool vid, but pretty sure Its 'Lee-man Russ' not le Man Russ😂
😂I know I know, it's a bad habit from before the days of audiobooks and proper pronunciation guides. To me he'll always be that imperial commander with the cybron-osmotic gill after the acid storms on Susa!
New Epic rules pretty subpar, this game has seemed to have ripped a lot out of first epic (space marine) with similar orders and CAF for melee combat, you have to declare orders for everything at the start of the turn so this game won't have the tactical flexibility of Epic Armageddon where you can hold back elements of your force until later in the turn to be able to pivot to react say to a thunderhawk assualt or teleport attack. Rules look pretty dumbed down.
Also saw scale comparisons with predators and there is no way both scales can exist in the same force, at lot of existing Epic players are looking at this and going thanks but no thanks. GW really dropped the ball in not accomediating most of the existing player base.
Epic Armageddon is in my opinion the best ruleset GW ever released and it wouldn't surprise me at all if people buying into the new scale of minitures end up playing Epic Armageddon rules instead where I think your 3000 point army will look a bit more sensible compared to what GW have planned in the new rules.
Yeah, I think if you were a NetEA player this release is bittersweet. The game you love is finally getting supported, but it's not the game you love, and there's a good chance it'll suck the air out of the old community. Personally, the last time I played was with Space Marine so I'm happy enough to see the orders return.
The scale one is interesting. The old scaling was to be honest a complete mess, with models using different scales across categories (e.g. tanks used one scale, infantry another, titans another again). If they had released the game with a scale to match the old epic models, I think the current Titanicus and Aeronautica players would have been furious. On the flip side, infantry are just bases and if your tanks look consistent then it's probably going to be fine.
I think they should have gone 3mm instead. ok, price tag would have ended the same as smaller miniatures but you'd need more of them, but for the lore and setting, being able to actually field droves of titans, you really need to go down in scale.
plus it would remove many gritty details, on that scale who cares if the foot sloggers are terminators with hammers or devastator marines, they are all insignificant ants anyway.
also the rules seem very close to 2nd edition epic, which I played as a kid and enjoyed a lot, but it took a LOOOOONG time to play. Not looking forward to 6+ hour games nowadays!
Buying boards is a con, just put them on the table like gamers did for years!
"Its gonna be a very expensive game" 🤣 no sh@t its games workshop. Jokes on them a 3d print is pretty cheap and worth the investment over buy multiple boxes.
Ha! I should have said, "This is going to be expensive, even by GW standards" I have loved all the armies getting painted over the last few months. The delay did leave a nice resin shaped hole that people have happily filled.
@@optimalgamestate you should look into Imperial Dominatus, its a fan made version of 30k epic, the only bad side is it was designed for mass battles and the infantry amount is crazy. But a fun version that is easy to understand and games are faster.
1) It's not on the scale of a real Warhammer , so it doesn't fit to my Curiously Assembled Collection.
2) This is the Horse Heresy, the least interesting settnig.
I'll pass with a slight regret that the Games Workshop could have spent these resources on improving the real Warhammer.
Funny you should say that, for some the old epic scale is the only true scale to play 40k at. The 28mm heroic just cant capture the massive scale of these battles. Each to their own, I'm happy to play at all scales.