This was amazing! I would absolutely love if you did the same for Senna and swain, I was thinking about that while watching this. I'm a senna main now but used to main thresh and always adored the potential of every champion with stacking passives!
@@Flavourius A topic I've always wanted to cover, but they're a bit unique of a soul to be included on this one. They get their own dedicated video for sure.
Something to note about the rabadons vs void staff testing is that it is done at level 6 so the base damage of thresh's abilities are lower. This means void staff performs even better than shown as the base damage would also be amplified by the magic penetration.
@@karole7345 Do you think that support thresh will go rabadon/void staff? Cryo played ap thresh mid, as a burst mage, not support. Though damage is still useful on support, as adcs lack damage early game, they are late game champions after all.
what's important to know is the armor from souls are bonus armor and not base armor. this change a lot of things bcs of runes and drakes and keep in mind to never get close to yasuo after his ult since he will ignore half of your BONUS armor
Yeah, do you remember the Season, where Last Whisper penetrated just Bonus Armor. Making any Tank even more tanky, except Thresh?. I hated that so much. I think they just forgot Thresh, when they made this choice back then.
Compared to other infinite scalers, it feels like playing well around Thresh's passive rewards him with not getting weaker over time. As in you must do it in order to follow other champions baselines, I mean: Collect good Senna stacks, and you get really strong. Collect good Thresh stacks, and you don't get weaker. Nevertheless, I still think Thresh is peak champion design.
@@psychokuca302 yeah but senna gets attack range and crit chance and senna already starts the game with very high attack range which just makes her kiting game even stronger plus marginally more damage from crit which is the real benefit.
@@Shadow-bk1im Her crit dmg as far as i remember is nerfed, and yes,she has a good range,but,she also hsa a wind up on her aa,which,when you try to kite, is really,and i mean really, limits your kiting, even with slow on q. Does she get strong,at what she supposed to do when has enough souls? Yes. Does tresh get strong,at what he supposed to do? Yes.
@@psychokuca302 I make the comparison because less AD per lvl means you deal marginally less damage. Less armor though, you become fragile to the point you can't properly fulfill your role, in Thresh's example. In ane case, you make a good point. a Senna without proper stacks is as good as useless. I think a better illustration would be a bell curve. Senna fluctuates more between the extremes of useless or busted, while Thresh is tamer, living mostly in the middle ground, and unable to reach Senna's peaks.
@@patrickbastos1267 This is a good point about their differences. And this difference comes from their role and their abilities. Even if they are both sups,thresh still will be useful with his lockdown,and as a sup, his stacks doesn’t provide *that* much value, as for senna, even if she is a sub, she is a damage dealing sup, where every stack,maybe less valuable in gold(now,I actually got curious about that,Cryo Senna stacks video pls), but they may be more valuable in overall image, where 20 more or 20 less armor for thresh might be not a big difference,cuz of how armor scaling works in league, but 20 souls for senna makes huge difference, cuz 20 range,20(I believe?) ad and 10 crit is a lot,for a dmg dealer
The calculation should be different for different builds, and the souls should be worth more early before the first buy. Before first buy each soul is worth even more since you are scalling in lane, when they buy you might have to collect more to go beyond their buy. So for every item enemies get the less the soul is worth untill you catch up (for your build).
wrong, gold value for base stats is absolute. although they make a larger difference earlier on in the game because of the % diff in stats you have when compared to late game with full items but the gold value is still the same.
There are like a million other factors to consider here. I think many thresh players would gladly give up a soul for 50g for example, because it allows them to get to their item spikes faster. The worth of each individual piece of gold changes every second depending on what other players are doing, the game state, your items, etc. It's also good to keep in mind that souls have the advantage of being effective immediately. Having 3000g in your inventory in a fight won't do you any good. Granted, that is an extreme example, but the same goes for say 750g which is very common at basiclly any point of the game. It's like a mini Ornn passive in that regard.
Well about the recursive bow It's 700 gold yeah, but it gives you attack speed too. 300 gold for 12% AS mean that 1% AS is worth 25 gold. So recursive bow is 15 on hit and 3% AS for 400 gold, meaning 15 on hit damage is worth 325 gold and not 700😊
Wouldn't it be better to treat W shield as like health from Health potion or refillable potion? To better reflect the temporary nature? Calcs: -Instead of 5.34 hp per soul, it becomes 50g/120hp = .416 * 2 per soul = 0.83 gold per soul per W cast per person. Or .83 * Soul * Person(s) affected. -Or you could use refillable potions: 150g / (2 * 100) = .75 * 2ps = 1.5g per W cast per Person. I understand why it is simpler to simply count it as max hp using ruby crystal, but I don't think it would be accurate based on this.
As a Thresh Main that only has played him Support until yet I have to say that those bonus stats really feel like they add up. I think the armor you get on average as a Support is fair and keeps you pretty much on pair with other supports. What does make a difference tho is the bonus ap and onhit. I've had games where I build regular Support Thresh (Radiant Virtue, Knights Vow and Zekes) and I still somehow outdamage my AD-Carry, especially in laningphase. This extra damage is something that I really enjoy right after his satisfying combos. Its just such a great champ.
I have 200k mastery on Thresh and I don't recall the last time I got above 100 souls in a game. In my experience, games often end before you even reach 60, regardless of whether I'm playing with or against him. Thresh's "armor growth" is way below that of other tanks for this reason. Only in extreme cases does his "base" armor get to the same level as someone like Leona or Braum. Figuring out the average amount of souls gained per level given an average game and then comparing that against the average armor growth stats of other hook champions would probably result in his passive being assigned a negative gold value when counting the armor alone. Certainly I wouldn't count it as a positive gold value until he's on par with his peers in "base" armor. From there, I would look to the on-hit damage, AP and shield to really tell whether Thresh is statistically ahead or behind. AP is 20.75 gold per point, and on-hit damage is *21.68 gold per point. I think you can make a case for shield being around half the value of hp, giving shield a value of 2,677... gold per shield. Added together that's around 45 gold per soul until he breaks even on armor, giving him around 4500 gold's worth of on-hit damage, AP and shielding at 100 stacks. Or 2250 gold at 50, which in my experience is usually the norm. The trouble is that Thresh isn't really designed to use AP and on-hit damage all that well, arguably decreasing the effective value of souls further. And we haven't even started counting Thresh's missing armor growth as a negative value against his passive. By and large, this passive is more flavorful than it is an advantage. As it stands, it's my opinion that you could probably remove it and give Thresh a normal armor growth and he'd likely be better off in most scenarios. *Dagger is 300 gold and 12 % AS, putting the value of AS at 25 gold per %. Recurve Bow is 700 gold with 375 of that being tied up in the 15 % AS, leaving 275 gold for the 15 on-hit damage, giving us 21.677... gold per point.
the 80g value is correct if you are inverting them on low tier components (the ones used as value reference) which means they are not as strong as 80g inverted on a full recipe. in few words: those 80g value per soul are not worth 80g.
This is a great video! Something I do want to criticise is the fact that you compare the gold value of 100 souls to the gold value of 2 legendary items (or 2 legendary items plus boots) near the middle of the video. This is although you derive the value of those souls from the gold efficiency of basic items (amp tome, cloth armour), which are substantially LESS gold efficient than legendary items. So 7425 gold worth of souls and 7425 gold worth of legendary items don't actually have the same value, as legendary items are far more gold efficient than basic items. :)
An interesting quirk about how Thresh's abilities scale is that because the shield from Lantern only has a Souls ratio, any other AP items you buy won't benefit your shield, unlike other supports who can get extra support value out of their damaging items. This also means that a Thresh investing purely in tank items still has a pretty decent shield. At 100 Souls, even with a rank 1 W you're looking at 250 Shield, which ain't nothin' to sneeze at.
also means there's some p. solid value in dipping into the forbidden idol pool as an otherwise full tank, because the 15% heal and shield power from a redemption turns that cool 250 shield into an even cooler 287 shield, not to mention how it effectively increases the value of all future souls. something worth considering even as a solo lane thresh, as keeping a fed carry or two alive is a valid wincon for every member of the team
I like going grasp, overgrowth, heartsteel, titanic and/or demonic embrace, wits end or nashers, then going mr or armor for the last 2-3 items thus utilizing all of the souls potential, and allowing him to inf. Stack health, apx2, ad, on-hitx2 if nashers, armor, and shielding.
oh yeah, i love this thresh passive. it's the main reason he is my favorite adc, together with jhin. Because in my opinion, he is one of the best picks in ad heavy teams, or assassins. because what i think many people underestimate is that adc thresh can be just as much a playmaker as support. So a good adc thresh can peel for himself, make the catches and plays you think of with a thresh, and still be an absolute solid damage carry. it is so much fun, and has so much potential.
the question is still, if it is more useful to grab souls in exchange for letting teammates die. So I'd say if you can get 2 souls by walking or 3 souls by throwing the W, but in exchange, you walk away from a teammate risking them dieing, it should still be worth it in the long term. Usually the teammates don't die every single time you walk away, so getting a value of 150 Gold for a small chance that your teammate dies is still worth it. If I tell my adc, I let him die because 3 Souls are worth more than him, I can just ff, because he will instantly start trolling.
For future reference you should always pair void staff with sorc shoes for testing purposes since the relationship between flat and percent penetration is very extreme. Say a target has 100 MR, if you have just void the target's new MR is 60, but just add Sorc shoes and the target now has 42. The difference in damage dealt is roughly 7.25% (37.25% damage reduction vs 30%) If you add further Flat penetration (say 11 more for a penetration mythic + 5 from having void staff), the target's MR is further reduced down to 31, causing a new damage reduction of 24% For the real curious individuals if you add shadow flame you can get a further 15 to 25 magic penetration giving a new damage reduction of: 14% to 6% So with Boots, Penetration mythic, void staff, and shadow flame you are able to ignore nearly 100 mr.
Even disregarding the armor gain/25g per soul (since that's mainly an offset to no armor growth), 50g of stats per soul is way more than I thought. I always collect my souls as long as they're not around the enemy backline, and always wondered why others don't. But I guess yeah the stats aren't *that* important on support thresh, assuming your team is good and you don't need to be the primary tank vs a physical comp. some extra burst from AP and on-hit is nice but not mandatory, 2-3 seconds of CC is enough to kill any squishy target. Armor is cool but you're a ranged support, assuming you have a bruiser or a tank top/jg you should be fine with less than standard support armor. I guess it's still worth it to get them in case game goes to 200+ souls though, 100 armor and 200 ap over the enemy support sounds nice.
you could like, calculate the total gold per level of stats that thresh gets vs the other supports on average? to account for the lack of armor growth? thresh might have better health growth than the others, or whatever else. might be worth a consideration
That is true and a bit of an oversight since Thresh did get his health/level buffed back when armor was reworked for everyone (Thresh had 12 armor at one point, then had 16 for a long time his base armor was buffed closer to the 28 it is now when Runes were reworked in Season 8 or so. Since everyone else also got Armor/level buffs iirc, Thresh got health/level buffs instead). That said Health and Armor aren't completely interchangeable, but still would've been a good thing to add for sure, even if the video would get a bit longer.
I got an about 70-75% winrate in aram by relying on souls (in there soul powah is doubled). It is just so satisfying to be overwhelmingly stronger than just about any melee or ad champ who's not chugging on true damage juice.
At a glance sure it might feel like that, but the argument is how much gold value a Thresh soul is worth. Thresh may have to jump through an extra hoop, but no soul = no armor so the two are inseperable. The premise is how much a single point into a stat is worth in gold, not how valuable the stat is compared to the rest of the roster.
@@stormsliva while the premise of the video is deriving the value of a thresh soul, that information can only be appreciated in full when put in the scope of a game state. I think its entirely fair to argue that you only start "counting" the gold lead souls give you with respect to armor after you break even with the base armor value of your equivalent on the enemy team. Prior to that point, you are merely making up for the gold value in stats that opponents gain through exp. I think it would be very reasonable to argue that Thresh souls have two different values, one for pre and another for post 100 stacks. You could soften that number up if you were playing in an Auto-Attack Carry position, but you can see what i am getting at.
@@SephK13 But the video has nothing to do with a gold lead. It's gold efficiency; an agreed upon value with a set definition. Moreso, the video is here to answer the age-old question of what the worth of a soul is in a cute way that ties to a video game mechanic. If anything it would be represented by an estimated equation, not selecting some arbitrary level & number of souls. The contextual value of that armor is so muddied when trying to compare it to his competitors because there are closer to 200 other champions in the game.
For the topic of Thresh's W scaling, HP is a good to compare to, but it could also be seen as a theoretical 200% AP scaling, since Thresh builds that dont invest in AP through items only get it from the souls they grab. Of course it isnt actually an AP ratio so it doesnt benefit from Baron buff or the percent increases to AP that Infernal dragon gives, which support and non-AP offense builds will likely run into.
Also means thresh can build hp and get his armor from souls. I dont play him preferring nautilus and alistar consistent stuns but makes me wonder if it would be good to pick him up. Most people dont know how to take lanterns anyway
The shield is worth significantly more than straight HP - it's repeated. Per base you're going to use it a couple times at least. It's more like having extra AP for a single ability.
Don't forget that stats from passives and skills is worth more, because you are not limited by amount of item slots. In the very, very late game, the stats from skills and passives become much greater, as it allows you to exceed the power ceiling and continue to scale.
Although I love Thresh (actually one of my favourite supps when I played the role), it would be fun to give him a Kit that revolved more about the souls. You know, more "visually", not just "some damage here, some damage there", but like upgrades for reaching certain soul counts.
something else to mention, iirc there is falloff for armor at a certain point, where stacking armor becomes less potent. It's why I used to take second wind as opposed to conditioning, since I would more often than not hit late game easily hitting that softcap, and the effective hp works wonders especially with thresh's limited healing options. Then again, I was the crazy person who thought transcendence was better than jak'sho, so take my words with a grain of salt. lol
That's not actually true, the way armor scaling works means that 1 armor always effectively increases your health by 1% against physical damage. A lot of people think it's diminishing returns because the % damage reduction does get smaller, but take into account the fact that % damage reduction is stronger the more you have (going from 0% to 10% is a small change, but 80% to 90% is halving the damage you receive).
@@geli95us I feel like he might have meant that 2000hp with 250 armour (7000 effective health against AD), you'd be better off buying 2 ruby crystals for 800 gold and increasing your stats to 2300hp and 250 armour (8050 effective HP against AD) instead of buying 40 armour with chain vest with 800 gold to have 2000hp with 290 armour (7800 effective HP against AD). Not to mention the fact that your effective health against magic damage increases with the health increase, not just being more cost effective against AD. Not to mention giant's belt for 900g and 350hp (8225 effective HP against AD), being more gold efficient than ruby crystals. At some point you do get diminishing returns when you keep buying resistances, and neglecting health. 1 point of resistances gives 1% effective health against that damage type. You can think of 250 armour as having 3.5x health against AD. 2000 hp with 500 armour (12k HP vs AD) is the same effective HP against AD as 3000 hp and 300 armour, but 3000 hp makes you 50% tankier against magic damage. With rubies, 2.6g per HP: 2.6k gold for 1000hp, but needing 200 less armour, cloth is 20g per armour, which is 4000 gold for 200 armour. Same effective HP against AD for 1.4k cheaper, and you're 50% tankier against magic damage. There are diminishing returns, as resistances are a "health multiplier", it requires you to have enough health to multiply for it to make sense. It's a balancing act between what damage your enemies can dish out, and how consistently. Similarly, the math changes when you account for healing, as more resistances do not reduce amount healed, as long as it's not % health based (on your champion). Teammate healing you for 500 hp? You're better off with more resistances than HP, as you'd heal 3000 effective HP vs AD with 500 armour, compared to 2000 HP vs AD with 300 armour. It's why your healers should focus on the frontline, unless it is to save your damage dealers. Keeping damage dealers close to 100%+ hp is useless when you allow your frontline to die, who can use your heals with several times the efficiency.
@@sudenluola2241 Yes, but the same thing applies to health, health and resistances are multiplicative, which means that you want to have a specific ratio to get the most value out of them, that doesn't mean that they have "diminishing returns", and no one in their sane mind would say that health has diminishing returns. (Again, this math applies to a lot of things in the game, ad and as for example, they are more effective when bought together, that doesn't mean they have "diminishing returns" either)
@@geli95us huh. thought it was originally like that, but then they added in the % reduction stuff and thought they fiddled with it like ability haste/cooldown %. thanks for the enlightenment friend
@@clreyawesome3527 strictly speaking, ability haste works in the exact same manner. 1 ability haste means you get 1% more casts in the same span of time, and 100 ability haste means you get 100% more casts in the same span of time*. an arrangement you might recognize from how attack speed works, as it's literally the exact same math. really, the change from cooldown reduction to ability haste was a way to make a core stat work like all the rest, changing it from a stat that subtly scaled multiplicatively with itself to one that scales linearly ( *it is technically more complicated than this, since unlike attacks, abilities don't factor their cast time into their cooldowns nor does ability haste have any effect on cast times. so aside from the sole exception of abilities that cast instantly, there's a constant delay between each ability cast that would remain even at 100% cdr. this doesn't really matter much outside of extreme cases, since the vast majority of abilities have a cast time of 0.25s, but it _is_ a fundamental detail worth noting )
One could make an argument for not focussing on souls on summoners rift. But on Aram you get doubled souls and can literally build full mr and your armor can well keep up with it making you an absolute monster after 15 or so minutes with just a tad attackspeed. And don't get me started on urf thresh... that thing ...
There is a few games that I play Thresh support and I solo kill enemy jungle because of those stat, it's seem not so important but it's definitely worth to take. Ps. Zeke convergence also perfect item for Thresh support and one of the reasons is because of the soul as well.
Do you think Thresh would performe better in general if he could consistantly farm his souls , something simmilar to how Veigar , Swein or Nasus can farm their stacks activly without relying on the RNG of the game?
Maybe, I feel like Senna having an additional way to get them by 2-tapping people lets her get them really fast if she tries, so that would help Thresh a lot of course. That said, the way the RNG works, similar to crit, is that the chance of a soul dropping will increase every time a soul doesn't drop, and vice versa, with every soul that drops, the next death will have a lower chance, balancing it out on average. That was something I remember reading about a lot back in the day, but looking around these days I just see "33% chance to drop souls". I don't think it was changed, but maybe it was.
@@CryoBeat that's an implementation of rng common to a lot of games with frequent proc effects but _especially_ mobas due to their competitive nature, and league is no different. granted, it's easy to miss because league has very few random procs, but it _does_ have a major universal one in critical strikes and, yep, the true chance of your attacking critting is modified based on how many of your previous attacks were crits. thing is, your displayed crit chance is still effectively accurate, as a 25% chance to crit still means that you can expect around 25 crits in a sequence of 100 attacks. this is because the ( properly implemented ) algorithms used for this effect take the desired chance and calculate the derived values so that the average proc rate remains the same, while still reducing the standard deviation - effectively meaning the proc is more often "on schedule" thresh souls are an interesting case, though, as the "schedule" of its procs can be charted in two noticeably different ways. there's the obvious one where, like crit, the chance is modified after every roll to push the chances towards dropping a soul every third minion that dies around thresh, but there's an interesting niggle to that: while you can't reasonably predict how many attacks a champ will pull off by a certain minute mark, the number of minions they should encounter is really simple. it's 6 every half minute ( per lane, but there's an obvious logistical issue with soaking minions from multiple lanes at once ), with an extra siege minion every minute and a half until minute 15 that always drops a soul, so at that minute 15 mark, you can expect a champion to encounter 190 minions, 10 of which are siege. so that's 10 guaranteed souls, plus one for every third minion out of the 180 others for 60 souls, totaling up to an expected average of 70 souls for 4.67 souls per minute prior to siege minions spawning more frequently. well, the actual expected average is a bit lower without really affecting the souls per minute, since you can't exactly expect thresh to catch the minions as they spawn at minute 5 ( albeit that _would_ deal with that aforementioned logistical issue ) either way, this still means you can look at the game timer and go, hey, thresh should really have x souls by now according to this simple formula, and that's a perfect case for implementing that expectation _programmatically._ so it's possible that the chance doesn't directly modulate every time a minion dies around thresh, but instead it compares his current souls ( whether it be souls from minions, from minions and monsters, from random drops, or just his total souls altogether ) to a calculated projection of how many souls he _should_ have by the current game time, and modifies the chance according. or it could use both, since they're not exactly mutually exclusive. if i had to go off my gut and what i know about riot's design ethos, i'd definitely guess that the projected value method is used, as it lets thresh roam, lose lane, and miss outright souls while still "banking" the opportunity to collect the souls lost by not being around minions. that lets him be a _lot_ more consistent than he would be otherwise, and also prevents him from being punished solely for engaging in the very important support job of leaving the lane it also matches up p. well with what i've seen and played of thresh, as it always seems like a _lot_ more waves that drop three or four random souls after making a comeback from a bad early game. 'course, whether that's actually the case is something i figure you have a much better idea of, for obvious reasons. it's something that should be easy to have an intuitive grasp of solely from enough experience, since the standard of two random souls per wave makes it real simple to notice when you're suddenly getting a lot more or less
I tried top thresh after watching a video of yours, it went pretty well, but yeah that attack wind up sucks so much. tbh it would be a more than viable pick if not for that xD
To be fair... i think this voiceline is still based on his release time. Where the first soul was 1 AP and 1 Armor worth. Which then decreased with every soul until it reached 0,5 AP and Armor with 100 souls. Nowadays it is always the same :D Edit: Wow, I wrote this while watching the ad, and the topic of the video is way different then I expected xD
Okay, but is this a solid basis for a mathematically correct *bruiser thresh* build, grabbing exclusively items that have improved cost effectiveness for a bulky on-hit build that just whittles away enemies in the 1v1 while providing damage AND cc in a teamfight
well you kinda talked about why its a nightmare to balance the game. you cant really put a number on the value of certain things since one value affects another. fe more atckspd=more value for on hit effects or ad but if enemies build resistances that value drops again but penetration can give more value again but that depends on your stats and the enemies... xD
These souls exist to make Thresh at the level of other supports. But it won’t pull him off any stronger. On average you will have about 100-130 souls per game. Souls used to drop more often, and at 200, you were a threat to thin targets. But now there is no such thing. And Thresh doesn’t seem to increase his resistance with level like other champions. SO souls are just gimmicks, and they have no value. You simply have to collect them in order to keep up.
Is Thresh’s passive change still a thing? I remember there was a point when collecting souls that it went from +1 to the stats to like +3 or something instead. I think it was like 184 souls or something. I remember that being a thing at one point, but is it still a thing?
What point would nashors be worth it over any other Item in an on hit build? I mainly only play events so I wanna know if it is worth it as a last item or after core items(excluding resistances and character taxes).
Even in an on-hit build, the 100 AP will impact your ability damage so that's a plus, however, you're right that other than that, it does far less damage than most other on-hit effects. Wit's End gives useful magic resist, BOTRK gives anti-tank and lifesteal, Rageblade gives hybrid penetration, etc. Nashor's does provide ability haste and the only reason to take it is to do AP shenanigans. As a last item, defensive stuff will likely be more useful so you can DPS for longer in my opinion, but 50% attack speed on Nashor's isn't bad either.
@@CryoBeat thank you for the answer. I would also like to ask if nashors would be a good item against squishy targets in a gamemode like arena or nexus blitz where you mainly/might only see ADC’s or bruisers(?) like yas/yone. And if getting it over more resistances (hp/armour) is worth it because of the boosted souls.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Should we do the same for Senna and Swain?
How about Senna and Lucian's soul first, talks about completion's sake but doesn't include them.
This was amazing!
I would absolutely love if you did the same for Senna and swain, I was thinking about that while watching this.
I'm a senna main now but used to main thresh and always adored the potential of every champion with stacking passives!
@@Flavourius A topic I've always wanted to cover, but they're a bit unique of a soul to be included on this one.
They get their own dedicated video for sure.
@@CryoBeat Neat :D
Then do some numbercrunch definitely on Swain next because Senna is cringe.
Think the math for Senna is 35g per soul, but not super clear because the lifesteal and range portions are a little item dependent.
Fun fact: 90% of *alchemist* stops before *doing a succesfull human transmutation*
hol up
10% is the op
“Ed…ward… big brother…”
@@unsemplicetriangoloHELL NAH💀💀💀💀💀
@@unsemplicetriangolotoo dark, bro
Something to note about the rabadons vs void staff testing is that it is done at level 6 so the base damage of thresh's abilities are lower. This means void staff performs even better than shown as the base damage would also be amplified by the magic penetration.
thats one ADC's auto attack. YOure supposed to support not DPS
@@karole7345 Do you think that support thresh will go rabadon/void staff? Cryo played ap thresh mid, as a burst mage, not support. Though damage is still useful on support, as adcs lack damage early game, they are late game champions after all.
actual reason i play AP Rakan Support (and mid)@@frogfrog_4
@@karole7345 his base kit does that already
no items will increase his stun time so getting a bit of extra dmg can work if the enemies are squishies
what's important to know is the armor from souls are bonus armor and not base armor. this change a lot of things bcs of runes and drakes and keep in mind to never get close to yasuo after his ult since he will ignore half of your BONUS armor
Thanks for the tip, I always think about Yasuo's R ignoring total armor.
Thts unfair because thresh doesnt have any base gain armor and relys on souls from my understanding.
@@Cherry-pu4mx it's a give and take. you get bonus armor synergies and can affect your armor growth with gameplay. other people can also utilize this
Yeah, do you remember the Season, where Last Whisper penetrated just Bonus Armor. Making any Tank even more tanky, except Thresh?.
I hated that so much. I think they just forgot Thresh, when they made this choice back then.
@@AlryFireBlade lol yas ult penetrates bonus armor. So feel tht pain still when up against a yas.
I can't wait for my teammates to link me this video every time I don't cancel my recall for souls
Compared to other infinite scalers, it feels like playing well around Thresh's passive rewards him with not getting weaker over time. As in you must do it in order to follow other champions baselines, I mean:
Collect good Senna stacks, and you get really strong.
Collect good Thresh stacks, and you don't get weaker.
Nevertheless, I still think Thresh is peak champion design.
Senna, is somewhat like thresh, as she doesnt get ad per lvl,so she still gets weaker if she doesnt collect souls
@@psychokuca302 yeah but senna gets attack range and crit chance and senna already starts the game with very high attack range which just makes her kiting game even stronger plus marginally more damage from crit which is the real benefit.
@@Shadow-bk1im Her crit dmg as far as i remember is nerfed, and yes,she has a good range,but,she also hsa a wind up on her aa,which,when you try to kite, is really,and i mean really, limits your kiting, even with slow on q. Does she get strong,at what she supposed to do when has enough souls? Yes. Does tresh get strong,at what he supposed to do? Yes.
@@psychokuca302 I make the comparison because less AD per lvl means you deal marginally less damage. Less armor though, you become fragile to the point you can't properly fulfill your role, in Thresh's example.
In ane case, you make a good point. a Senna without proper stacks is as good as useless.
I think a better illustration would be a bell curve.
Senna fluctuates more between the extremes of useless or busted, while Thresh is tamer, living mostly in the middle ground, and unable to reach Senna's peaks.
@@patrickbastos1267 This is a good point about their differences. And this difference comes from their role and their abilities. Even if they are both sups,thresh still will be useful with his lockdown,and as a sup, his stacks doesn’t provide *that* much value, as for senna, even if she is a sub, she is a damage dealing sup, where every stack,maybe less valuable in gold(now,I actually got curious about that,Cryo Senna stacks video pls), but they may be more valuable in overall image, where 20 more or 20 less armor for thresh might be not a big difference,cuz of how armor scaling works in league, but 20 souls for senna makes huge difference, cuz 20 range,20(I believe?) ad and 10 crit is a lot,for a dmg dealer
This could be a nice series for every soul related champ.
Tresh being able to gather the souls with his W makes total sense but i never knew he could. 12 Years of League and i still learn new stuff
I have same thing with few other champions. Like cait getting headshots faster in bushes
@@dynias7282 Wait isnt that in her Passiv Description?
@@holschermarcit is. Tho could be mssed if you've never played her
@@holschermarc i have a thing to not read description of abilities and passives, and trying to understand them in practise
@@dynias7282 Fair point
The calculation should be different for different builds, and the souls should be worth more early before the first buy.
Before first buy each soul is worth even more since you are scalling in lane, when they buy you might have to collect more to go beyond their buy.
So for every item enemies get the less the soul is worth untill you catch up (for your build).
wrong, gold value for base stats is absolute. although they make a larger difference earlier on in the game because of the % diff in stats you have when compared to late game with full items but the gold value is still the same.
There are like a million other factors to consider here. I think many thresh players would gladly give up a soul for 50g for example, because it allows them to get to their item spikes faster. The worth of each individual piece of gold changes every second depending on what other players are doing, the game state, your items, etc. It's also good to keep in mind that souls have the advantage of being effective immediately. Having 3000g in your inventory in a fight won't do you any good. Granted, that is an extreme example, but the same goes for say 750g which is very common at basiclly any point of the game. It's like a mini Ornn passive in that regard.
Well about the recursive bow
It's 700 gold yeah, but it gives you attack speed too.
300 gold for 12% AS mean that 1% AS is worth 25 gold.
So recursive bow is 15 on hit and 3% AS for 400 gold, meaning 15 on hit damage is worth 325 gold and not 700😊
go to 6:25 this was taken into account
As a thresh main, collecting souls are 100% worth, either you wanna build an ap build or go fully tank
Wouldn't it be better to treat W shield as like health from Health potion or refillable potion? To better reflect the temporary nature?
Calcs:
-Instead of 5.34 hp per soul, it becomes 50g/120hp = .416 * 2 per soul = 0.83 gold per soul per W cast per person. Or .83 * Soul * Person(s) affected.
-Or you could use refillable potions: 150g / (2 * 100) = .75 * 2ps = 1.5g per W cast per Person.
I understand why it is simpler to simply count it as max hp using ruby crystal, but I don't think it would be accurate based on this.
As a Thresh Main that only has played him Support until yet I have to say that those bonus stats really feel like they add up. I think the armor you get on average as a Support is fair and keeps you pretty much on pair with other supports. What does make a difference tho is the bonus ap and onhit. I've had games where I build regular Support Thresh (Radiant Virtue, Knights Vow and Zekes) and I still somehow outdamage my AD-Carry, especially in laningphase. This extra damage is something that I really enjoy right after his satisfying combos. Its just such a great champ.
8:28 "enemies focusing you as a support isn't likely" - as a twitch support main, i get focused more than a cheerleader in the mens locker room
you should do this for senna and figure out whose souls are better
0:30 😂 looking at Thresh from this angle is hilarious, he looks so silly with his teeth like that it's actually cute
hope they keep hybrid pen in the game in some form after they ditch mythics, genuinely really cool option to have for fun builds
My Best friend always asked me "why are you flashing for those souls"
Me who's a thresh main knows the value of it: it's the law
If you are going for a one-shot build: priceless
So souls are basically cannon minions, got it👍
Souls are worth as much as the person that had them uwu
So zero
I have 200k mastery on Thresh and I don't recall the last time I got above 100 souls in a game. In my experience, games often end before you even reach 60, regardless of whether I'm playing with or against him. Thresh's "armor growth" is way below that of other tanks for this reason. Only in extreme cases does his "base" armor get to the same level as someone like Leona or Braum.
Figuring out the average amount of souls gained per level given an average game and then comparing that against the average armor growth stats of other hook champions would probably result in his passive being assigned a negative gold value when counting the armor alone. Certainly I wouldn't count it as a positive gold value until he's on par with his peers in "base" armor.
From there, I would look to the on-hit damage, AP and shield to really tell whether Thresh is statistically ahead or behind.
AP is 20.75 gold per point, and on-hit damage is *21.68 gold per point. I think you can make a case for shield being around half the value of hp, giving shield a value of 2,677... gold per shield.
Added together that's around 45 gold per soul until he breaks even on armor, giving him around 4500 gold's worth of on-hit damage, AP and shielding at 100 stacks. Or 2250 gold at 50, which in my experience is usually the norm.
The trouble is that Thresh isn't really designed to use AP and on-hit damage all that well, arguably decreasing the effective value of souls further. And we haven't even started counting Thresh's missing armor growth as a negative value against his passive.
By and large, this passive is more flavorful than it is an advantage. As it stands, it's my opinion that you could probably remove it and give Thresh a normal armor growth and he'd likely be better off in most scenarios.
*Dagger is 300 gold and 12 % AS, putting the value of AS at 25 gold per %. Recurve Bow is 700 gold with 375 of that being tied up in the 15 % AS, leaving 275 gold for the 15 on-hit damage, giving us 21.677... gold per point.
He plays ap thresh, not support thresh
the 80g value is correct if you are inverting them on low tier components (the ones used as value reference) which means they are not as strong as 80g inverted on a full recipe.
in few words: those 80g value per soul are not worth 80g.
This is a great video!
Something I do want to criticise is the fact that you compare the gold value of 100 souls to the gold value of 2 legendary items (or 2 legendary items plus boots) near the middle of the video.
This is although you derive the value of those souls from the gold efficiency of basic items (amp tome, cloth armour), which are substantially LESS gold efficient than legendary items.
So 7425 gold worth of souls and 7425 gold worth of legendary items don't actually have the same value, as legendary items are far more gold efficient than basic items.
:)
An interesting quirk about how Thresh's abilities scale is that because the shield from Lantern only has a Souls ratio, any other AP items you buy won't benefit your shield, unlike other supports who can get extra support value out of their damaging items. This also means that a Thresh investing purely in tank items still has a pretty decent shield. At 100 Souls, even with a rank 1 W you're looking at 250 Shield, which ain't nothin' to sneeze at.
also means there's some p. solid value in dipping into the forbidden idol pool as an otherwise full tank, because the 15% heal and shield power from a redemption turns that cool 250 shield into an even cooler 287 shield, not to mention how it effectively increases the value of all future souls. something worth considering even as a solo lane thresh, as keeping a fed carry or two alive is a valid wincon for every member of the team
I like going grasp, overgrowth, heartsteel, titanic and/or demonic embrace, wits end or nashers, then going mr or armor for the last 2-3 items thus utilizing all of the souls potential, and allowing him to inf. Stack health, apx2, ad, on-hitx2 if nashers, armor, and shielding.
I had the information thanks to the thumbnail but I still watched it even though I'll probably forget all of this in an hour or two
So best build will be guinsos - hurricane - nashors - lichbane - rabadons - thornmail ? Noted going into ranked right now.
oh yeah, i love this thresh passive. it's the main reason he is my favorite adc, together with jhin. Because in my opinion, he is one of the best picks in ad heavy teams, or assassins. because what i think many people underestimate is that adc thresh can be just as much a playmaker as support. So a good adc thresh can peel for himself, make the catches and plays you think of with a thresh, and still be an absolute solid damage carry. it is so much fun, and has so much potential.
I just love that u keep using Phantasy Star Online Themes on your vids
PSO and PSO2 will never leave me.
the question is still, if it is more useful to grab souls in exchange for letting teammates die. So I'd say if you can get 2 souls by walking or 3 souls by throwing the W, but in exchange, you walk away from a teammate risking them dieing, it should still be worth it in the long term. Usually the teammates don't die every single time you walk away, so getting a value of 150 Gold for a small chance that your teammate dies is still worth it. If I tell my adc, I let him die because 3 Souls are worth more than him, I can just ff, because he will instantly start trolling.
3 souls > 1 his soul
My teammates wouldn't take the lantern anyway they prefer to use their flash instead 🧠
For future reference you should always pair void staff with sorc shoes for testing purposes since the relationship between flat and percent penetration is very extreme.
Say a target has 100 MR,
if you have just void the target's new MR is 60,
but just add Sorc shoes and the target now has 42.
The difference in damage dealt is roughly 7.25% (37.25% damage reduction vs 30%)
If you add further Flat penetration (say 11 more for a penetration mythic + 5 from having void staff), the target's MR is further reduced down to 31, causing a new damage reduction of 24%
For the real curious individuals if you add shadow flame you can get a further 15 to 25 magic penetration giving a new damage reduction of:
14% to 6%
So with Boots, Penetration mythic, void staff, and shadow flame you are able to ignore nearly 100 mr.
Even disregarding the armor gain/25g per soul (since that's mainly an offset to no armor growth), 50g of stats per soul is way more than I thought. I always collect my souls as long as they're not around the enemy backline, and always wondered why others don't. But I guess yeah the stats aren't *that* important on support thresh, assuming your team is good and you don't need to be the primary tank vs a physical comp. some extra burst from AP and on-hit is nice but not mandatory, 2-3 seconds of CC is enough to kill any squishy target. Armor is cool but you're a ranged support, assuming you have a bruiser or a tank top/jg you should be fine with less than standard support armor. I guess it's still worth it to get them in case game goes to 200+ souls though, 100 armor and 200 ap over the enemy support sounds nice.
you could like, calculate the total gold per level of stats that thresh gets vs the other supports on average? to account for the lack of armor growth? thresh might have better health growth than the others, or whatever else. might be worth a consideration
That is true and a bit of an oversight since Thresh did get his health/level buffed back when armor was reworked for everyone (Thresh had 12 armor at one point, then had 16 for a long time his base armor was buffed closer to the 28 it is now when Runes were reworked in Season 8 or so. Since everyone else also got Armor/level buffs iirc, Thresh got health/level buffs instead).
That said Health and Armor aren't completely interchangeable, but still would've been a good thing to add for sure, even if the video would get a bit longer.
I got an about 70-75% winrate in aram by relying on souls (in there soul powah is doubled). It is just so satisfying to be overwhelmingly stronger than just about any melee or ad champ who's not chugging on true damage juice.
the conversation about thresh's base armor growth also goes for his ability damage and his w shield strength.
Good video. I'm not sure armor value should be counted though, since the armor gain basically makes up for Thresh's poor base armor growth.
At a glance sure it might feel like that, but the argument is how much gold value a Thresh soul is worth. Thresh may have to jump through an extra hoop, but no soul = no armor so the two are inseperable.
The premise is how much a single point into a stat is worth in gold, not how valuable the stat is compared to the rest of the roster.
@@stormsliva while the premise of the video is deriving the value of a thresh soul, that information can only be appreciated in full when put in the scope of a game state. I think its entirely fair to argue that you only start "counting" the gold lead souls give you with respect to armor after you break even with the base armor value of your equivalent on the enemy team. Prior to that point, you are merely making up for the gold value in stats that opponents gain through exp. I think it would be very reasonable to argue that Thresh souls have two different values, one for pre and another for post 100 stacks. You could soften that number up if you were playing in an Auto-Attack Carry position, but you can see what i am getting at.
@@SephK13 But the video has nothing to do with a gold lead. It's gold efficiency; an agreed upon value with a set definition. Moreso, the video is here to answer the age-old question of what the worth of a soul is in a cute way that ties to a video game mechanic.
If anything it would be represented by an estimated equation, not selecting some arbitrary level & number of souls. The contextual value of that armor is so muddied when trying to compare it to his competitors because there are closer to 200 other champions in the game.
Souls have no price tag, they're priceless!
For the topic of Thresh's W scaling, HP is a good to compare to, but it could also be seen as a theoretical 200% AP scaling, since Thresh builds that dont invest in AP through items only get it from the souls they grab. Of course it isnt actually an AP ratio so it doesnt benefit from Baron buff or the percent increases to AP that Infernal dragon gives, which support and non-AP offense builds will likely run into.
Also means thresh can build hp and get his armor from souls. I dont play him preferring nautilus and alistar consistent stuns but makes me wonder if it would be good to pick him up. Most people dont know how to take lanterns anyway
@@ethosterros9430 Most of the time I end up using lanterns to catch distant souls or throw it for the shield mid-combat anyways.
The shield is worth significantly more than straight HP - it's repeated. Per base you're going to use it a couple times at least. It's more like having extra AP for a single ability.
would make more sense to derive its value from a consumable healing item imo
Don't forget that stats from passives and skills is worth more, because you are not limited by amount of item slots. In the very, very late game, the stats from skills and passives become much greater, as it allows you to exceed the power ceiling and continue to scale.
hearing the music from phantasy star online ep.2 in a random ass video about thresh made me go down memory lane
Although I love Thresh (actually one of my favourite supps when I played the role), it would be fun to give him a Kit that revolved more about the souls. You know, more "visually", not just "some damage here, some damage there", but like upgrades for reaching certain soul counts.
Says the guy that misses 50% on average of the souls he could have collected on camera then posts it on YT. Thank you kind sir
wth am i doing watching a Thresh essay at 3am
Same 😅
Cryo: explaining how much a soul is worth
Meanwhile people's name in the background gameplay:
The title is the thresh voiceline and i love it
Thresh "Torment comes in so many flavors"
Armor, AP, and on-hit
Wasnt expecting the wonderhoy jumpscare
Stacking passives feels like obtaining cocaine
something else to mention, iirc there is falloff for armor at a certain point, where stacking armor becomes less potent. It's why I used to take second wind as opposed to conditioning, since I would more often than not hit late game easily hitting that softcap, and the effective hp works wonders especially with thresh's limited healing options. Then again, I was the crazy person who thought transcendence was better than jak'sho, so take my words with a grain of salt. lol
That's not actually true, the way armor scaling works means that 1 armor always effectively increases your health by 1% against physical damage.
A lot of people think it's diminishing returns because the % damage reduction does get smaller, but take into account the fact that % damage reduction is stronger the more you have (going from 0% to 10% is a small change, but 80% to 90% is halving the damage you receive).
@@geli95us I feel like he might have meant that 2000hp with 250 armour (7000 effective health against AD), you'd be better off buying 2 ruby crystals for 800 gold and increasing your stats to 2300hp and 250 armour (8050 effective HP against AD) instead of buying 40 armour with chain vest with 800 gold to have 2000hp with 290 armour (7800 effective HP against AD). Not to mention the fact that your effective health against magic damage increases with the health increase, not just being more cost effective against AD. Not to mention giant's belt for 900g and 350hp (8225 effective HP against AD), being more gold efficient than ruby crystals.
At some point you do get diminishing returns when you keep buying resistances, and neglecting health. 1 point of resistances gives 1% effective health against that damage type. You can think of 250 armour as having 3.5x health against AD. 2000 hp with 500 armour (12k HP vs AD) is the same effective HP against AD as 3000 hp and 300 armour, but 3000 hp makes you 50% tankier against magic damage. With rubies, 2.6g per HP: 2.6k gold for 1000hp, but needing 200 less armour, cloth is 20g per armour, which is 4000 gold for 200 armour. Same effective HP against AD for 1.4k cheaper, and you're 50% tankier against magic damage.
There are diminishing returns, as resistances are a "health multiplier", it requires you to have enough health to multiply for it to make sense. It's a balancing act between what damage your enemies can dish out, and how consistently.
Similarly, the math changes when you account for healing, as more resistances do not reduce amount healed, as long as it's not % health based (on your champion). Teammate healing you for 500 hp? You're better off with more resistances than HP, as you'd heal 3000 effective HP vs AD with 500 armour, compared to 2000 HP vs AD with 300 armour. It's why your healers should focus on the frontline, unless it is to save your damage dealers. Keeping damage dealers close to 100%+ hp is useless when you allow your frontline to die, who can use your heals with several times the efficiency.
@@sudenluola2241 Yes, but the same thing applies to health, health and resistances are multiplicative, which means that you want to have a specific ratio to get the most value out of them, that doesn't mean that they have "diminishing returns", and no one in their sane mind would say that health has diminishing returns.
(Again, this math applies to a lot of things in the game, ad and as for example, they are more effective when bought together, that doesn't mean they have "diminishing returns" either)
@@geli95us huh. thought it was originally like that, but then they added in the % reduction stuff and thought they fiddled with it like ability haste/cooldown %. thanks for the enlightenment friend
@@clreyawesome3527 strictly speaking, ability haste works in the exact same manner. 1 ability haste means you get 1% more casts in the same span of time, and 100 ability haste means you get 100% more casts in the same span of time*. an arrangement you might recognize from how attack speed works, as it's literally the exact same math. really, the change from cooldown reduction to ability haste was a way to make a core stat work like all the rest, changing it from a stat that subtly scaled multiplicatively with itself to one that scales linearly
( *it is technically more complicated than this, since unlike attacks, abilities don't factor their cast time into their cooldowns nor does ability haste have any effect on cast times. so aside from the sole exception of abilities that cast instantly, there's a constant delay between each ability cast that would remain even at 100% cdr. this doesn't really matter much outside of extreme cases, since the vast majority of abilities have a cast time of 0.25s, but it _is_ a fundamental detail worth noting )
The Phantasy Star Online music is healing my soul
10:45. Dam, that was nasty, made me forget what you were even saying 😂
I thought the armor value decreased to 0.75 after a few
One could make an argument for not focussing on souls on summoners rift. But on Aram you get doubled souls and can literally build full mr and your armor can well keep up with it making you an absolute monster after 15 or so minutes with just a tad attackspeed. And don't get me started on urf thresh... that thing ...
There is a few games that I play Thresh support and I solo kill enemy jungle because of those stat, it's seem not so important but it's definitely worth to take.
Ps. Zeke convergence also perfect item for Thresh support and one of the reasons is because of the soul as well.
Do you think Thresh would performe better in general if he could consistantly farm his souls , something simmilar to how Veigar , Swein or Nasus can farm their stacks activly without relying on the RNG of the game?
Maybe, I feel like Senna having an additional way to get them by 2-tapping people lets her get them really fast if she tries, so that would help Thresh a lot of course. That said, the way the RNG works, similar to crit, is that the chance of a soul dropping will increase every time a soul doesn't drop, and vice versa, with every soul that drops, the next death will have a lower chance, balancing it out on average.
That was something I remember reading about a lot back in the day, but looking around these days I just see "33% chance to drop souls". I don't think it was changed, but maybe it was.
@@CryoBeat that's an implementation of rng common to a lot of games with frequent proc effects but _especially_ mobas due to their competitive nature, and league is no different. granted, it's easy to miss because league has very few random procs, but it _does_ have a major universal one in critical strikes and, yep, the true chance of your attacking critting is modified based on how many of your previous attacks were crits. thing is, your displayed crit chance is still effectively accurate, as a 25% chance to crit still means that you can expect around 25 crits in a sequence of 100 attacks. this is because the ( properly implemented ) algorithms used for this effect take the desired chance and calculate the derived values so that the average proc rate remains the same, while still reducing the standard deviation - effectively meaning the proc is more often "on schedule"
thresh souls are an interesting case, though, as the "schedule" of its procs can be charted in two noticeably different ways. there's the obvious one where, like crit, the chance is modified after every roll to push the chances towards dropping a soul every third minion that dies around thresh, but there's an interesting niggle to that: while you can't reasonably predict how many attacks a champ will pull off by a certain minute mark, the number of minions they should encounter is really simple. it's 6 every half minute ( per lane, but there's an obvious logistical issue with soaking minions from multiple lanes at once ), with an extra siege minion every minute and a half until minute 15 that always drops a soul, so at that minute 15 mark, you can expect a champion to encounter 190 minions, 10 of which are siege. so that's 10 guaranteed souls, plus one for every third minion out of the 180 others for 60 souls, totaling up to an expected average of 70 souls for 4.67 souls per minute prior to siege minions spawning more frequently. well, the actual expected average is a bit lower without really affecting the souls per minute, since you can't exactly expect thresh to catch the minions as they spawn at minute 5 ( albeit that _would_ deal with that aforementioned logistical issue )
either way, this still means you can look at the game timer and go, hey, thresh should really have x souls by now according to this simple formula, and that's a perfect case for implementing that expectation _programmatically._ so it's possible that the chance doesn't directly modulate every time a minion dies around thresh, but instead it compares his current souls ( whether it be souls from minions, from minions and monsters, from random drops, or just his total souls altogether ) to a calculated projection of how many souls he _should_ have by the current game time, and modifies the chance according. or it could use both, since they're not exactly mutually exclusive. if i had to go off my gut and what i know about riot's design ethos, i'd definitely guess that the projected value method is used, as it lets thresh roam, lose lane, and miss outright souls while still "banking" the opportunity to collect the souls lost by not being around minions. that lets him be a _lot_ more consistent than he would be otherwise, and also prevents him from being punished solely for engaging in the very important support job of leaving the lane
it also matches up p. well with what i've seen and played of thresh, as it always seems like a _lot_ more waves that drop three or four random souls after making a comeback from a bad early game. 'course, whether that's actually the case is something i figure you have a much better idea of, for obvious reasons. it's something that should be easy to have an intuitive grasp of solely from enough experience, since the standard of two random souls per wave makes it real simple to notice when you're suddenly getting a lot more or less
finally we got the answer 😭😭😭😭
Now you have to calculate the cost of a soul for Senna. I am waiting
I tried top thresh after watching a video of yours, it went pretty well, but yeah that attack wind up sucks so much. tbh it would be a more than viable pick if not for that xD
"What is the worth of a soul?"
Oh you cheeky bastard
with so many numbers the meaning of gold has fully vanished for m-
75 gold you say? that's one and a half potions! i'm sold
Thresh voicelined "poor lost soul" after I missed the first soul, and I just thought it was funny
To be fair... i think this voiceline is still based on his release time.
Where the first soul was 1 AP and 1 Armor worth. Which then decreased with every soul until it reached 0,5 AP and Armor with 100 souls.
Nowadays it is always the same :D
Edit: Wow, I wrote this while watching the ad, and the topic of the video is way different then I expected xD
every time you said per soul, the carl Croissant came to my mind, im sorry, incredibly sorry, had to led it out...
I am disappointed this wasn't a baldurs gate crossover episode
I mean it's one soul, what could it cost? 700 gold?
12:30 I sat through over ten minutes of delicious delicious numbers only to get flashbanged by anime
beautifully explained as usual, great video :3
the random mafuyu jumpscare in the video gave me a whiplash... Mr Cyro, are you also a project sekai player....
I think "addict" is a good word to describe it.
Okay, but is this a solid basis for a mathematically correct *bruiser thresh* build, grabbing exclusively items that have improved cost effectiveness for a bulky on-hit build that just whittles away enemies in the 1v1 while providing damage AND cc in a teamfight
well you kinda talked about why its a nightmare to balance the game. you cant really put a number on the value of certain things since one value affects another.
fe more atckspd=more value for on hit effects or ad but if enemies build resistances that value drops again but penetration can give more value again but that depends on your stats and the enemies... xD
Withers from BG3: Very well I am satisfied
sooo, thornmail dmg scales with bonus armor (which soul armor counts as), just leavin it here...
Glad to see i wasn't missremembering
once they fix thresh AA windup time, it will genuinely make on-hit items viable on him.
yo the phantasy star online soundtrack in the background !
THE ANCIENT QUESTION. GREAT RUN DOWN
sick vid thx for explaining thresh big ups
hm... I might consider trying a Heartsteel>Void Staff>Rabbadons build
One of the best design champ, nothing more to say
These souls exist to make Thresh at the level of other supports. But it won’t pull him off any stronger. On average you will have about 100-130 souls per game. Souls used to drop more often, and at 200, you were a threat to thin targets. But now there is no such thing. And Thresh doesn’t seem to increase his resistance with level like other champions. SO souls are just gimmicks, and they have no value. You simply have to collect them in order to keep up.
so an early dark seal (especially the new one) is broken.
Very very cool essay, and nice math :)
The thing is thresh needs armor since he does not get any armor from level up
I mean free stats is free stats. I didnt know about the on hit but that makes them even better in teamfights getting free consistent damage.
I consider myself as a statistics enjoyer, but boy I am LOST
Is Thresh’s passive change still a thing? I remember there was a point when collecting souls that it went from +1 to the stats to like +3 or something instead. I think it was like 184 souls or something. I remember that being a thing at one point, but is it still a thing?
I thought this was a very old video when he mentioned IE as an expensive "legendary" item
Thank you, I am now a thresh top main
wouldn t this stats growth have awesome sinergy with nashors?
and second item riftmaker to gain sustain
bro you forgot to add the extra shield that comes from ability power itself
Little bit outdated, since Amplifying Tome is now 400g, making the value of AP go down to 20g
for the shield scaling wouldnt it make more sense to match it with the scaling of another equivalent shield on an enchanter or something?
What point would nashors be worth it over any other Item in an on hit build? I mainly only play events so I wanna know if it is worth it as a last item or after core items(excluding resistances and character taxes).
Even in an on-hit build, the 100 AP will impact your ability damage so that's a plus, however, you're right that other than that, it does far less damage than most other on-hit effects. Wit's End gives useful magic resist, BOTRK gives anti-tank and lifesteal, Rageblade gives hybrid penetration, etc. Nashor's does provide ability haste and the only reason to take it is to do AP shenanigans.
As a last item, defensive stuff will likely be more useful so you can DPS for longer in my opinion, but 50% attack speed on Nashor's isn't bad either.
@@CryoBeat thank you for the answer. I would also like to ask if nashors would be a good item against squishy targets in a gamemode like arena or nexus blitz where you mainly/might only see ADC’s or bruisers(?) like yas/yone. And if getting it over more resistances (hp/armour) is worth it because of the boosted souls.
@@CryoBeat what about kraken, the ap scaling on thresh could be juicy
To mr crab, it's only 65 cent
this is what im telling withers next run
Something I didn't know I needed to know. Now I want to play thresh.😂
2:23 demoman?
Jak'Sho the Protein, my favorite mythic item