A good topic to talk about, also a difficult one to find “the” truth in. Because of lack of evidence, and both sides having their own “truths”... What I do can tell (because I’m an gojukai practitioner for almost 30 years. And I’ve gratefully trained in the hombu dojo in Tokyo. Under Goshi and his son Gohei Yamaguchi). Is that’s from my own personal experiences, this is content partially “true”. Can confirm: - Gojukai does have other heights in stances and even in certain moves in kata are different (for example kata Seisan, we do a high sokuto/yoko-geri after the sanbon renzuki in shiko dachi). - The lack of the “old Okinawa ways”. We do train with attributes like chi ishi, and we have hardening drills. Only their more scarce than in The Okinawa goju. Can’t confirm: -The way the gojukai says “Osu”. This isn’t what I’ve heard when training in Japan and elsewhere. - The emphasis on point kumite. We have our “own” kumite which is called Goju-jiyu kumite. Since I’ve been training, even the Gojukai has come to the question: is sports karate interfering and taking over the “old” ways. Our free kumite distinguishes itself in the maai (間合い). It’s close combat, mostly moving in and around nekoashi. Keep your private mostly protected with your legs and moving fluidly around. So their is a lot of turning an twisting. To move around (in and outside) of your opponent. The catlike flexibility and quickness. Even throws, locks, knees even headbuts are allowed when done in “skin touch”. Low kicks even controlled “kicks” to block the knees are allowed. So if one tries to step in. Just block the knee with the inside of your foot, to annoy or prevent the attacker from attacking. It’s NOT full contact like kyokushin, and the usages of the more “risky” moves. Will depend on the rank and comfort or the moves of the practitioner. From what I believe after al these years of training: there is no karate style, better karate than others. Teaching, interpretations and knowledge will always vary at some points. Keep listening to each other, ask questions out of intrest (not because you want to hear your own thoughts to be confirmed). And ask and tell each other why instead of how. Disclaimer: all above is based on my own experiences, so it’s not “the” truth!
I agree with you. I am a student of Gojukai (IKGA/Yamaguchi Ha) for more than 20 years. We never use "osu" like mentions here, not in honbu and not in my dojo, not all IKGA dojos in my country and other countries that I have visited. For Japanese Shotokan, yes they use "osu" but not us. Our kumite, we have jiyu kumite, where it is full contact kumite. Yes we do sparring point kumite just as WKF does, but we also have jiyu kumite.
Great synopsis. And also emphasizing the variety and many subtleties that Gojukai retained from Okinawan Goju. I'm familiar with Gojukai practicing the "light touch" jiyu that allows for vulnerable/vital targets; Okinawan Goju practicing Irikumi Go sparring, sometimes with bogu; and both potentially practicing WKF point sparring and/or knockdown rules.
Before I watch my understanding is that Japanese karate is more about self development and Original Okinawan karate is about self defense and life and death situations. But I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot watching this video.
Liked and sub'd. Well done. Not a "cop out" answer at all. All planning begins with goals. Choose your goal before you choose your method. Good stuff, thanks.
Would love to do a collab video/podcast with you sometime! Because I went to Ritsumeikan I know a lot of the OB karate team members from way back when. For example Matsuura Senpai who graduated from Ritsumeikan in the 50s, is an 8th dan, and still teaches to this day!
Your videos are very interesting. Please it is important that you continue with them. I think they help to understand what karate really is. A video about Higaonna Morio Shihan would be a contribution. Regarda from Panquehue, San Felipe, V Region, Chile
Man!!! Glad to find this channel! As a Goju ryu practicioner, I always liked to know more about the differences! Firt point started when I compared Higaoona sensei (Morio) and Gogen's style.
Thank you for having completed your homework and your Superlative presentation! I concur with you on the Okinawan Goju Ryu. I studied under Seikichi Toguchi and who's photo you use in your opening photo. Arigato
Okinawan Goju is my first style, so it remains most comfortable to me and makes sense. Having since trained in Shotokan (JKA as well as Butokukan Karate-do, in Japan, in a dojo that does not use “Ouss!”, and Washinryu Karate-do) I can imagine that Japanese Goju must have more Shotokan , or Shotokan-like, elements.
I always find the topic of Karate 🥋 interesting, it has so many facet and is a very healthy activity for level minded , cool headed individuals and can be practiced well into the fifties and some times 60's 70's & 80's as a instructor. 🥋
I am a Shorin Ryu black belt and I am studying Goju ryu. I am fascinated with your dicertation on the philosophy of Goju ryu. You present the subject with a great deal of research. I am also a follower of Jesse Encamp. Thank you for your time and all the work you do.
Nice video, thank you. I'm curious as to why there's no mention of the OGKK (Okinawa Goju-ryu Karatedo Kyokai) that was created by Eichi Miyazato sensei, the one selected by Miyagi's students to be the successor after Miyagi sensei's death.
He doesn't mention OGKK because the he doesn't know about the OGKK. As I said in a previous post, his understanding, experience and knowledge is severely lacking. It's going to get himself in the trouble posting these things.
@@astromongre539 well it's good that he's doing this to learn more about Goju Ryu outside of what he has been taught. Being able to provide the feedback should help him in learning more.
Miyagi Sensei did not appoint a successor. Eiichi Miyazato Sensei was close to Miyagi, and received the original Hojo Undo equipment after Miyagi's passing. That does not make him successor. Meitoku Yagi received Miyagi's keikigi and obi. It doesn't make him successor either. Only Seko Higa received rank from Miyagi Sensei. He was not the successor either.
Hello! Just found your excellent videos about goju ryu history and philosophy! You won a new subscriber ;) One question I wanted to know is what institution do you graduated black belt? Just for curiosity, I'm not judging at all! I've been training for the last two years under IOGKF and I'm loving it!
Hi ! First time visiting your channel. Awesome content, I was wondering the differences between those two interpretations of Goju-Ryu. How would you compare Uechi-Ryu and Goju-Ryu? That'd help a lot
I actually thought you'll prefer Japanese Goju... because you look a lot like Gogen Yamaguchi *makes a quick getaway* Great video seriously! This channel deserves more subs!
Keep in mind that Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo, had gotten his Judo into the public school system, grades 1 - 12. School kids. As such, it was deemed inappropriate to teach strikes and kicks to children as part of their regular physical education program. Hence the focus on throwing, grappling, and physical conditioning. (Katame-waza, is NOT "pins", it is "grappling" in general.) The hope was that after graduation, students would continue their Judo education and learn the other components of Judo as adults. Unfortunately(?), sport Judo became so popular that it took on a life of its own. Teams and competitions were formed at the college level and beyond. Having never experienced other aspects of Judo, atemi and other aspects never even came up on the radar of competitors, and would have been considered a waste of time toward winning tournaments. WWII came on, the Allied occupation followed, and there were other reasons not to emphasize martial elements.
It would be interesting to somehow demonstrate, maybe through Kata, the differences between the two. You could explain what's different & why one might be more useful than the other. I realize this will take knowing the bunkai of each, but it would be worth the research. I've heard far to many negative comments for over 35 years, with most over the last 10, of each one criticizing each other. When I ask either side, none have had any 'real' knowledge of the other that they are criticizing. It's like watching FOX News versus CNN! (Usually with CNN having zero true knowledge...my opinion). If anyone knows that this comparison has already been done, please tell me where I can find it.
7:46 There was a lot of contact between IGKA and Meibukan (from 1973) until the last few years. Whenever higher level students wanted to go to Okinawa Goshi arranged for them to study with first Meitoku Yagi and then with Meitatsu. It changed some time after Meitoku's death in 2003. That contact led to changes in Katas from how Gogen did them to more like how it was done in Meibukan. The bunkai is a mixture of Meibukan and Goshi and some of his closest Karateka (for example Hiromasa Kikuchi) worked out.
fun story. some idiot on another video comment section was claiming that pure karateka can out grapple BJJ practitioners, and that karate was influenced by jiu-jitsu. i kept telling him no it wasn't, so i linked this video as evidence and he construed homeboy here saying karate was developed independently of japanese martial arts and influenced 2 mondern sytles of JJJ as meaning the exact opposite lmao.
There was never a split between Goju kai and IOGKF, for Okinawan Goju Ryu dojos were never part of the same organization. There are maybe ten Goju kaiha in Okinawa, all of them traceable to Miyagi Chojun. There is also a style called "toon ryu", founded by Juhatsu Kyoda, student of Higashiona Kanryo, and also Miyagi Chojun's senpai by one month. Toon Ryu does not include Miyagi's innovations.
Yes, It's true As I have traind in Naha Okinawa Japan from the direct linage of the founder of Goju-Ryu Master Chojun Miyagis Senior successful student Master Meitoku Yagi and RTKA Karate INDIA. Respected khoshi Sensei Rajesh L Thakkar Chief Inspector and technical director of India.Traditional okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate is the best according to my world wide of many years right from my childhood experience.🙏 Arigato
I must admit, I was getting ready to let you know about the influence on Japanese Goju from Yagi Meitoku, but finally you did mention him. He travelled to Japan quite a bit to teach Yamaguchi the Goju Ryu Kata.
I beg to differ on the "ossu' story. While I'm certainly not a Goju Kai karateka, I have trained with my Goju friends on quite a few occasions over many years, one memorable time being in Japan at the Goju Kai Tokyo HQ under the watchful eye of Yamaguchi Sensei 'The Cat'. On one occasion, when the present Goju Kai Chief Instructor, Goshi Yamaguchi Sensei, was taking the class, he raised the subject of 'Ossu'. He spoke of it as being low level language, impolite & rather 'rough'. I believe he preferred to hear "hai".
...your hair style goes with Yamaguchi's version more closely than with Higaonna's very short style though. ;) I was a little surprised you didn't talk about the difference in body-conditioning (iron-body/iron palm/traditional okinawan weight training, etc.) b/n the two versions.
Not to rip on our host here, but my old Sensei wouldn't let his male students have long hair. I didn't understand at the time, but now that I'm older I see that he really did want was best for his students. I suppose it's a different world now days, but if you read Funakoshi's book, a hair style can have an effect on ones life.
Okinawan style is healthier and less prone to injury. But the points made in this video applies to most classical martial arts when it transitioned into modern do system (shallower, more gross strength oriented system).
Some say Gogen Yamaguchi started Goju under Takeo Maruyama. Some others say he started under Higa Seiko... Where are the evidences of what you've said on your side ? I've observed that very low stances are present in Jundokan and Meibukan. Shodokan and Shoreikan have higher stances for the same kata moves, probably due to Higa Seiko's teachings, who are probably closer to Kanryo Higaonna's Naha-te than Miyagi, who innovated after exchanging with Shuri-te and Tomari-te masters. So lower stances already existed outside of Japanese Karate prior to Yamaguchi's version. In the same way, some practice the Miyagi's form for Geki Sai Ichi and Geki Sai Ni with Jodan Zuki while others practice Chudan Zuki. We can observe the same changes through Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu generations. Motobu Choki and Gichin Funakoshi had relatively low stances, just like Anko Itosu, but Chotoku Kyan and Chatan Yara kept higher stances, influenced by their small size and Sokon Matsumura's teachings (according to Higa Minoru sensei and Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei). Martial arts evolve, that's why they're called so. Talking about sportive forms of Karate is another topic, mainly depending on your own feeling. But Okinawan call it "Shiai", which means "game", meaning "child play". Gichin Funakoshi once said 2 interesting things that I share myself : - Competition is only for ego flattering. The one who searches for Te shouldn't bother with such futile things. - If you change the form of Karate, then it is not Karate anymore. He meant that if your purpose in practising Karate is not self defense, then it's not the art he used to teach. So can we still call these competitions Karate ? And should we still call Karate these competition-based "styles" or teachings ? The experts keep on debating about it since the Judo creation from partial Jujutsu techniques and for competition purpose. But I personally think that if the main purpose is a sportive application, just like competitions, it shouldn't even keep being called "martial art". The way people practice differ from one to the others. And it may differ from the art/sport purpose. Coming back to Yamaguchi's purpose, the will of competition probably comes from his kenjutsu practice, like many Japanese practitioners... Good topics to be discussed !
I have nidan in Jkf goju Kai japanese and Shodon Hanshi marquez okiniwan goju Ryu, I've also studied with Kayo Ong Okiniwan goju Ryu yes big difference 😁
No, please stop them. His misinformation is going to get someone or himself into big trouble one of these days. Looked down the road 20 years.... He'll have to delete these videos if he wishes to continue and grow on his path in karate.
An opponent of mine was once awarded a half point because I roundhoused them too hard to the thigh. Semi-contact is a stupid idea. Is it touch-contact or full-contact ? It is subjective. Derp.
Siiiigh.... this is why i crosstrained with boxing. Allows you take learn rolling with the punches. Though i tried to keep it secret from my sensei, i still gave it away accidentally from our last sparring. Sigh. I would love to train in a goju school nearby if still possible. At this point, i'm really just looking for any techniques to supplement my understanding of how karate can be practical.
My experience with swords has shown me that you do indeed need to put a great deal of force to cut bone and cutting bone is what is required to end the fight immediately. Merely cutting someone can actually make the person more dangerous as they become wild and desperate when they are injured. Also edge alignment is of such critical importance that it can mean the difference between cutting bone or injuring the person at all. Kendo does absolutely nothing to acknowledge this. No matter what sword your using stabbing the throat and face at the eye line is the easiest way to win a fight and to destroy the other person composure. Leaving the tip at eye level and reducing all cuts to a minimum distance to return to this threat is how you keep the person in suffocating defense. The body absolutely hates sharp things approaching the eyes and will naturally tell the person to instinctively turn away. Lastly actual sword fights which take into account the previous principles will be almost exclusive won by footwork and rarely binding the sword into a compromising position. If the fighter properly retracts the sword without remove its intent to me since the eyes it’s unlikely to be bound loss will come from the person swiftly moving past your guard by inserting the sword behind yours and running across you while facing angled in. If a person is not experienced slapping them on the top of the head swiftly is the most common. Although musashi insisted on striking the wrists as primary I was never able to make this work. Please someone link if there is a proper tutorial on how to cut the wrists without reaction or following a persons attack... that sort of stuff doesn’t translate to sparing. All successful fighting techniques really on either of balancing or bating a false guard. The only reactionary attacks that work are grappling in my opinion and experience. The if you do this than all do that crowd doesn’t spar in my experience.
From some of the comments here, it is obvious that some people did not pay close attention to certain things you said. The difference is that Okinawan Goju Ryu IS Goju Ryu. I was told that Miyagi gave Gogen some corrections and verbal permission to teach his version of Goju Ryu. But many Gojukai people believe that Gogen was the successor. Not even Miyagi Sensei's Okinawan students were appointed successor. The closest and most notable student to receive anything from Miyagi Sensei was Higa Seko, to whom Miyagi awarded Shihan. The document is written in Miyagi's own handwriting, and is in the Museum built by Hokama Tetsuhiro Sensei, in his dojo.
Jump step supporting leg I to opponent and throw roundhouse to head, aim for neck to make up the distance 👍🏼 Real GojuRyu doesn't tech to fight so to speak, your taught how to properly punch, kick and block, and then your first kata, after you know your first kata well enough to pass grading to yellow belt, Senzi surprises students by fighting them all individually that day, the students were not told about direct combat fighting ever before this, so they are shocked and forced to use what they have learned from Kata during fighting, this helps them develop and pull chi from inside them, from only the kata moves they learned. It's a way to find their fighting spirit and develop inner chi, even though they are clueless to it all but are taught over time to tap inside and develop character more than defence or offence. God Bless and Much Love
Technically, those gloves were a gift to my mother for when she went into remission for breast cancer, so they're more for sentimental reasons than for training in. Thanks for the advice though, I'll keep it in mind the next time I'm in the market for gloves!
@@stevesweeton131 I believe it was stated by Tetsuhiro Hokama to my sensei that he worked for Japanese, US and Soviet intelligence during WWII which makes him a tripple agent and pretty rotten as a man. Wiki does mention him working with US soldiers and soviets after he was captured by the latter. Hokama also stated that he didn't study under Chojun Miyagi for long until he started doing his own thing which is popularising his watered down Goju-ryu to the masses in Japan. He wished to compete with Funakoshi's Shotokan. However Mas Oyama succeeded him in that with his Kyokushin which isn't even karate.
@@Mr440c Thanks for the insight. I studied Japanese Goju under Hanshi Angel (recently deceased) way back in the late 70's through the 80's. He studied under Peter Urban & then went to Japan and studied under Gogan Yamaguchi for about a year to earn his 3rd Dan. He never mentioned any questionable character of Gogan. Plus I don't know about the claim of weak or water-down either. It has served me quite well. However I do not know much about Okinawa Goju. In regard to Self Defense, my philosophy has always been that it's more about dedication and athleticism of the individual than the style. As long as the school pressure-tests frequently with hard-sparing, most styles will serve you well. I agree that many Goju schools, both Japanese & Okinawan, focus primarily on Kata & very little, if any, sparing. So those that don't frequently hard-spare I won't consider a self-defense school. Those are simply philosophical dance schools/ black-belt-mills for soccer-mom kids. However it honestly depends on the individual & the particular school and not on the style. But that is very interesting to hear about Gogan. At 62 I've learned not to criticize a style because often you'll find yourself on your back in match in an open tournament or even worse, on the street by that "style". I use to make fun on Shito Ryu & Taikwondon't....LOL....until I got my ass kicked by one of each. Yahahaha, yep tough lesson for an arrogant young man with very little life experience. I'm not trying to be controversial regarding the blanket categorization of an individual style. But I have say I wouldn't advise it in an open forum. However I'm old now and I have given up such bold ventures. My body is to broken-down now.
@@stevesweeton131 traditional Goju-ryu is a very whole school that doesn't focus on anything. You as a practitioner must focus on things yourself. It's been done on Okinawa back when karate hasn't even had this name "the chineese hand." Now we live in dfferent environments so our rithm doesn't fit to those old ways of training. I for one just focus on sanchin and breathing at the moment on sanchin with the supervision of my teacher. The correct breathing and learning to walk properly is essential for fighting. It is also good for my back that has quite a bit of protrusions. Our sensei often tells us to learn to walk. He emphasises that. Being able to walk while throwing strikes or grappling is essentailly what is called a footwork. And breathing is essential for accumulating energy and being able to fight during sparring at all. If you can't breathe there comes a moment in a fight when you lose your confidence and can't do anything but throw one punch or a kick or some lazy ass atempt at throwing or holding your opponent. In my oppinion we don't spar enough as you said but when it comes down to everything else I consider myself being lucky to attend to one of the best martial arts schools in the World. The knowledge we are getting is just that vast. It's just as you described yourself. Many of us are adult men that are quite hurt and sparring regularly is just that risky not to mention the differences in height and weight. Chilldren group though spar every damn training. I envy them so much.
@@Mr440c What school do you attend & where? Your experience sounds similar to mine. All styles in the US are going to make modifications to fit the sensei of each school. I personally believe all styles were meant to evolve. I don't buy into the philosophy of trying to keep it "pure" to it first origins. After all these "styles" all evolved from various other origins and adapted to as many regions. However, today there is far to much variation from my earlier days in the 70's. Back then there were only a handful of Goju schools across the the entire US, Japanese or Okinawan. Now there a dime a dozen with many self proclaimed very high dan levels. Superempei use to be a very secret kata only taught to very select black belts. It would not even be demonstrated outside of a black belt class. Now it's used in every competition I watch. Plus there is very little bunkai and/or just wrong if they do. Example, I seldom hear many that even know the simple meaning of the same ending of every Goju kata...at least in Japanese Goju. Again I have seen very little Okinawan Goju. Even Hanshi Angel made modifications to some kata and he learned them all much closer to the? original roots which many were modified by Gogan. J I remember discussing his reasoning & he was simply adapting details that simplified certain moves to make them much more practical. But he would stick with the foundation of each like not incorporating the pretty, high kicks of "other" styles. Kicking to the head just isn't practical
For me this was actually confusing. I had trained as a guest in Sydney with Yamaguchi Sensei (now head of the Goju Kai) and he specifically mentioned not using Ossu in karate. I believe that he considered it to be something a ruffian might use. His preference was for the Japanese 'hai' meaning Yes to confirm understanding. This was in the late 80's or early 90's, so maybe over time the Goju Kai just gave up an accepted Ossu. Who knows?
You are very are miss inform about the Goju ryu Organizations in Japan .. THE JKF GOJU KAÍ IS the TRUE recognized government body for Goju ryu in Japan since 1972. recognized by the JKF and Japanese government… the OGKK IS the recognized Goju ryu body by the Okinawa n Government. The IOGKF cane out the OGKK .. There in many Okinawa goju ryu groups in Okinawa. They are all legit but they are slight different..,
Could you possibly be more wrong by trying to sound smart? A collegiate vocabulary doesn't make you right. Your mindset on this subject is very immature. Not saying that you are immature, but saying you obviously don't have enough depth and experience, nor a deeper understanding of the history to present this subject. You're way off base here and many of the other subjects you present are out of your league.
A good topic to talk about, also a difficult one to find “the” truth in. Because of lack of evidence, and both sides having their own “truths”...
What I do can tell (because I’m an gojukai practitioner for almost 30 years. And I’ve gratefully trained in the hombu dojo in Tokyo. Under Goshi and his son Gohei Yamaguchi). Is that’s from my own personal experiences, this is content partially “true”.
Can confirm:
- Gojukai does have other heights in stances and even in certain moves in kata are different (for example kata Seisan, we do a high sokuto/yoko-geri after the sanbon renzuki in shiko dachi).
- The lack of the “old Okinawa ways”.
We do train with attributes like chi ishi, and we have hardening drills. Only their more scarce than in The Okinawa goju.
Can’t confirm:
-The way the gojukai says “Osu”. This isn’t what I’ve heard when training in Japan and elsewhere.
- The emphasis on point kumite.
We have our “own” kumite which is called Goju-jiyu kumite. Since I’ve been training, even the Gojukai has come to the question: is sports karate interfering and taking over the “old” ways.
Our free kumite distinguishes itself in the maai (間合い). It’s close combat, mostly moving in and around nekoashi. Keep your private mostly protected with your legs and moving fluidly around. So their is a lot of turning an twisting. To move around (in and outside) of your opponent. The catlike flexibility and quickness.
Even throws, locks, knees even headbuts are allowed when done in “skin touch”. Low kicks even controlled “kicks” to block the knees are allowed. So if one tries to step in. Just block the knee with the inside of your foot, to annoy or prevent the attacker from attacking.
It’s NOT full contact like kyokushin, and the usages of the more “risky” moves. Will depend on the rank and comfort or the moves of the practitioner.
From what I believe after al these years of training: there is no karate style, better karate than others. Teaching, interpretations and knowledge will always vary at some points.
Keep listening to each other, ask questions out of intrest (not because you want to hear your own thoughts to be confirmed). And ask and tell each other why instead of how.
Disclaimer: all above is based on my own experiences, so it’s not “the” truth!
I agree with you. I am a student of Gojukai (IKGA/Yamaguchi Ha) for more than 20 years. We never use "osu" like mentions here, not in honbu and not in my dojo, not all IKGA dojos in my country and other countries that I have visited.
For Japanese Shotokan, yes they use "osu" but not us.
Our kumite, we have jiyu kumite, where it is full contact kumite. Yes we do sparring point kumite just as WKF does, but we also have jiyu kumite.
Hey. I'm goju kai too but we drifted so far from y'all we are almost an independent dojo
Great synopsis. And also emphasizing the variety and many subtleties that Gojukai retained from Okinawan Goju.
I'm familiar with Gojukai practicing the "light touch" jiyu that allows for vulnerable/vital targets; Okinawan Goju practicing Irikumi Go sparring, sometimes with bogu; and both potentially practicing WKF point sparring and/or knockdown rules.
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 In Meibukan Goju-ryu, we have Irikumi Ju Kumite. But Irikumi isn't practised in every Goju dojo in Okinawa though.
Before I watch my understanding is that Japanese karate is more about self development and Original Okinawan karate is about self defense and life and death situations.
But I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot watching this video.
Liked and sub'd. Well done. Not a "cop out" answer at all. All planning begins with goals. Choose your goal before you choose your method. Good stuff, thanks.
I like your way to explain the art and its history. Thank you very much!! Please stop by, when you come to okinawa!
Oh My Gods!!! I went to Ritsumeikan university and was on the Karate team there!!!
You can see the kanji for Ritsumeikan University on my belt and my gi in my videos🥋
Would love to do a collab video/podcast with you sometime! Because I went to Ritsumeikan I know a lot of the OB karate team members from way back when. For example Matsuura Senpai who graduated from Ritsumeikan in the 50s, is an 8th dan, and still teaches to this day!
Just found your channel man. Keep it up 👊 Awesome content. IOGKF brown belt from Australia 👊
I would like to see an okinawan goju karateka compete in Karate Combat.
So true. I mostly see shotokan
Sport is not combat.
@@areitomusic not intrinsically, but some are, hence the term combat sports.
There are. And there are some goju-ryu practitioners in the Karate Combat discord (such as myself)
Your videos are very interesting. Please it is important that you continue with them. I think they help to understand what karate really is. A video about Higaonna Morio Shihan would be a contribution. Regarda from Panquehue, San Felipe, V Region, Chile
Man!!! Glad to find this channel! As a Goju ryu practicioner, I always liked to know more about the differences! Firt point started when I compared Higaoona sensei (Morio) and Gogen's style.
Thank you for having completed your homework and your Superlative presentation! I concur with you on the Okinawan Goju Ryu. I studied under Seikichi Toguchi and who's photo you use in your opening photo. Arigato
Okinawan Goju is my first style, so it remains most comfortable to me and makes sense. Having since trained in Shotokan (JKA as well as Butokukan Karate-do, in Japan, in a dojo that does not use “Ouss!”, and Washinryu Karate-do) I can imagine that Japanese Goju must have more Shotokan , or Shotokan-like, elements.
Damatte Keiko to all. And to all a Good night.
I always find the topic of Karate 🥋
interesting, it has so many facet and is a very healthy activity for level minded , cool headed individuals and can be practiced well into the fifties and some times 60's 70's & 80's as a instructor. 🥋
I am a Shorin Ryu black belt and I am studying Goju ryu. I am fascinated with your dicertation on the philosophy of Goju ryu. You present the subject with a great deal of research. I am also a follower of Jesse Encamp. Thank you for your time and all the work you do.
Great job, very well documented. I really liked it. I also like your pronunciation of Japanese names / words. 😉👌
Nice video, thank you. I'm curious as to why there's no mention of the OGKK (Okinawa Goju-ryu Karatedo Kyokai) that was created by Eichi Miyazato sensei, the one selected by Miyagi's students to be the successor after Miyagi sensei's death.
He doesn't mention OGKK because the he doesn't know about the OGKK. As I said in a previous post, his understanding, experience and knowledge is severely lacking. It's going to get himself in the trouble posting these things.
@@astromongre539 well it's good that he's doing this to learn more about Goju Ryu outside of what he has been taught. Being able to provide the feedback should help him in learning more.
Miyagi Sensei did not appoint a successor. Eiichi Miyazato Sensei was close to Miyagi, and received the original Hojo Undo equipment after Miyagi's passing. That does not make him successor. Meitoku Yagi received Miyagi's keikigi and obi. It doesn't make him successor either. Only Seko Higa received rank from Miyagi Sensei. He was not the successor either.
Your Japanese pronunciation is better than the average martial TH-camr.
Good job men! Very good research
Hello! Just found your excellent videos about goju ryu history and philosophy! You won a new subscriber ;)
One question I wanted to know is what institution do you graduated black belt? Just for curiosity, I'm not judging at all!
I've been training for the last two years under IOGKF and I'm loving it!
Hi !
First time visiting your channel.
Awesome content, I was wondering the differences between those two interpretations of Goju-Ryu.
How would you compare Uechi-Ryu and Goju-Ryu?
That'd help a lot
Great videos thanks and make more please
That's the plan!
I actually thought you'll prefer Japanese Goju... because you look a lot like Gogen Yamaguchi *makes a quick getaway*
Great video seriously! This channel deserves more subs!
Keep in mind that Kano Jigoro, founder of Judo, had gotten his Judo into the public school system, grades 1 - 12. School kids. As such, it was deemed inappropriate to teach strikes and kicks to children as part of their regular physical education program. Hence the focus on throwing, grappling, and physical conditioning. (Katame-waza, is NOT "pins", it is "grappling" in general.) The hope was that after graduation, students would continue their Judo education and learn the other components of Judo as adults. Unfortunately(?), sport Judo became so popular that it took on a life of its own. Teams and competitions were formed at the college level and beyond. Having never experienced other aspects of Judo, atemi and other aspects never even came up on the radar of competitors, and would have been considered a waste of time toward winning tournaments. WWII came on, the Allied occupation followed, and there were other reasons not to emphasize martial elements.
It would be interesting to somehow demonstrate, maybe through Kata, the differences between the two. You could explain what's different & why one might be more useful than the other. I realize this will take knowing the bunkai of each, but it would be worth the research. I've heard far to many negative comments for over 35 years, with most over the last 10, of each one criticizing each other. When I ask either side, none have had any 'real' knowledge of the other that they are criticizing.
It's like watching FOX News versus CNN! (Usually with CNN having zero true knowledge...my opinion).
If anyone knows that this comparison has already been done, please tell me where I can find it.
7:46 There was a lot of contact between IGKA and Meibukan (from 1973) until the last few years. Whenever higher level students wanted to go to Okinawa Goshi arranged for them to study with first Meitoku Yagi and then with Meitatsu. It changed some time after Meitoku's death in 2003. That contact led to changes in Katas from how Gogen did them to more like how it was done in Meibukan. The bunkai is a mixture of Meibukan and Goshi and some of his closest Karateka (for example Hiromasa Kikuchi) worked out.
fun story.
some idiot on another video comment section was claiming that pure karateka can out grapple BJJ practitioners, and that karate was influenced by jiu-jitsu. i kept telling him no it wasn't, so i linked this video as evidence and he construed homeboy here saying karate was developed independently of japanese martial arts and influenced 2 mondern sytles of JJJ as meaning the exact opposite lmao.
There was never a split between Goju kai and IOGKF, for Okinawan Goju Ryu dojos were never part of the same organization. There are maybe ten Goju kaiha in Okinawa, all of them traceable to Miyagi Chojun. There is also a style called "toon ryu", founded by Juhatsu Kyoda, student of Higashiona Kanryo, and also Miyagi Chojun's senpai by one month. Toon Ryu does not include Miyagi's innovations.
Yes, It's true As I have traind in Naha Okinawa Japan from the direct linage of the founder of Goju-Ryu Master Chojun Miyagis Senior successful student Master Meitoku Yagi and RTKA Karate INDIA. Respected khoshi Sensei Rajesh L Thakkar Chief Inspector and technical director of India.Traditional okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate is the best according to my world wide of many years right from my childhood experience.🙏 Arigato
Out of curiosity, what style of Goju-ryu are you studying? You reference Seikichi Toguchi a fair bit it seems.
Not related to your specific question or the video itself but I couldn't help it. Here's a thumbs up for that amazing profile picture and username!
@@victoringeson haha ... thanks!
This was one of the most cogent explanations of the origins and reasons for sport kumite rules that I have ever heard. Thank you.
I must admit, I was getting ready to let you know about the influence on Japanese Goju from Yagi Meitoku, but finally you did mention him. He travelled to Japan quite a bit to teach Yamaguchi the Goju Ryu Kata.
They didn’t learn it. Maybe because the Japanese were to full of themselves. They should have stayed instead of half learning and half making it up.
Meitoku Yagi did travel to Japan, but it was not for the purpose of teaching Gogen. He did teach him the kata while in Japan.
I beg to differ on the "ossu' story. While I'm certainly not a Goju Kai karateka, I have trained with my Goju friends on quite a few occasions over many years, one memorable time being in Japan at the Goju Kai Tokyo HQ under the watchful eye of Yamaguchi Sensei 'The Cat'. On one occasion, when the present Goju Kai Chief Instructor, Goshi Yamaguchi Sensei, was taking the class, he raised the subject of 'Ossu'. He spoke of it as being low level language, impolite & rather 'rough'. I believe he preferred to hear "hai".
just subbed good vid
Glad I caught the ending
Time for me to learn
A lot of information delivered very fast. must watch twice.
Great breakdown! Thank you!
...your hair style goes with Yamaguchi's version more closely than with Higaonna's very short style though. ;) I was a little surprised you didn't talk about the difference in body-conditioning (iron-body/iron palm/traditional okinawan weight training, etc.) b/n the two versions.
Not to rip on our host here, but my old Sensei wouldn't let his male students have long hair. I didn't understand at the time, but now that I'm older I see that he really did want was best for his students. I suppose it's a different world now days, but if you read Funakoshi's book, a hair style can have an effect on ones life.
Okinawan style is healthier and less prone to injury. But the points made in this video applies to most classical martial arts when it transitioned into modern do system (shallower, more gross strength oriented system).
Some say Gogen Yamaguchi started Goju under Takeo Maruyama. Some others say he started under Higa Seiko... Where are the evidences of what you've said on your side ?
I've observed that very low stances are present in Jundokan and Meibukan. Shodokan and Shoreikan have higher stances for the same kata moves, probably due to Higa Seiko's teachings, who are probably closer to Kanryo Higaonna's Naha-te than Miyagi, who innovated after exchanging with Shuri-te and Tomari-te masters.
So lower stances already existed outside of Japanese Karate prior to Yamaguchi's version.
In the same way, some practice the Miyagi's form for Geki Sai Ichi and Geki Sai Ni with Jodan Zuki while others practice Chudan Zuki.
We can observe the same changes through Shuri-te/Shorin-ryu generations. Motobu Choki and Gichin Funakoshi had relatively low stances, just like Anko Itosu, but Chotoku Kyan and Chatan Yara kept higher stances, influenced by their small size and Sokon Matsumura's teachings (according to Higa Minoru sensei and Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei).
Martial arts evolve, that's why they're called so. Talking about sportive forms of Karate is another topic, mainly depending on your own feeling. But Okinawan call it "Shiai", which means "game", meaning "child play".
Gichin Funakoshi once said 2 interesting things that I share myself :
- Competition is only for ego flattering. The one who searches for Te shouldn't bother with such futile things.
- If you change the form of Karate, then it is not Karate anymore.
He meant that if your purpose in practising Karate is not self defense, then it's not the art he used to teach. So can we still call these competitions Karate ? And should we still call Karate these competition-based "styles" or teachings ?
The experts keep on debating about it since the Judo creation from partial Jujutsu techniques and for competition purpose. But I personally think that if the main purpose is a sportive application, just like competitions, it shouldn't even keep being called "martial art".
The way people practice differ from one to the others. And it may differ from the art/sport purpose. Coming back to Yamaguchi's purpose, the will of competition probably comes from his kenjutsu practice, like many Japanese practitioners...
Good topics to be discussed !
Maybe the reason why it took so much time to be proficient, is that Funakoshi was the teacher...
I practice Freestyle Goju Kai Karate
I have nidan in Jkf goju Kai japanese and Shodon Hanshi marquez okiniwan goju Ryu, I've also studied with Kayo Ong Okiniwan goju Ryu yes big difference 😁
Big ups to Kayo Sensei! I've trained with him a little as well, and every lesson was always a great workout and super informative.
Never stop these vids my friend!
No, please stop them. His misinformation is going to get someone or himself into big trouble one of these days. Looked down the road 20 years.... He'll have to delete these videos if he wishes to continue and grow on his path in karate.
@@astromongre539 ok pal 👌🏻
I prefer Okinawa Goju-Ryu Karate-Jutsu
An opponent of mine was once awarded a half point because I roundhoused them too hard to the thigh. Semi-contact is a stupid idea. Is it touch-contact or full-contact ? It is subjective. Derp.
Do cage fighting you can kick them as hard as you want lol
Oss!!! That should say it all Oss!!!
You never mentioned the late Hanshi Lou angel who was the successor of gogen the cat yamaguchi
Is there a document that verifies this? Why would Gogen name him and not his own son successor??
So what you're saying is yamaguchi did more damage to the karate than any other historical figure
Siiiigh.... this is why i crosstrained with boxing. Allows you take learn rolling with the punches. Though i tried to keep it secret from my sensei, i still gave it away accidentally from our last sparring. Sigh. I would love to train in a goju school nearby if still possible. At this point, i'm really just looking for any techniques to supplement my understanding of how karate can be practical.
My experience with swords has shown me that you do indeed need to put a great deal of force to cut bone and cutting bone is what is required to end the fight immediately. Merely cutting someone can actually make the person more dangerous as they become wild and desperate when they are injured.
Also edge alignment is of such critical importance that it can mean the difference between cutting bone or injuring the person at all. Kendo does absolutely nothing to acknowledge this.
No matter what sword your using stabbing the throat and face at the eye line is the easiest way to win a fight and to destroy the other person composure. Leaving the tip at eye level and reducing all cuts to a minimum distance to return to this threat is how you keep the person in suffocating defense. The body absolutely hates sharp things approaching the eyes and will naturally tell the person to instinctively turn away.
Lastly actual sword fights which take into account the previous principles will be almost exclusive won by footwork and rarely binding the sword into a compromising position. If the fighter properly retracts the sword without remove its intent to me since the eyes it’s unlikely to be bound loss will come from the person swiftly moving past your guard by inserting the sword behind yours and running across you while facing angled in.
If a person is not experienced slapping them on the top of the head swiftly is the most common. Although musashi insisted on striking the wrists as primary I was never able to make this work. Please someone link if there is a proper tutorial on how to cut the wrists without reaction or following a persons attack... that sort of stuff doesn’t translate to sparing. All successful fighting techniques really on either of balancing or bating a false guard. The only reactionary attacks that work are grappling in my opinion and experience. The if you do this than all do that crowd doesn’t spar in my experience.
From some of the comments here, it is obvious that some people did not pay close attention to certain things you said. The difference is that Okinawan Goju Ryu IS Goju Ryu. I was told that Miyagi gave Gogen some corrections and verbal permission to teach his version of Goju Ryu. But many Gojukai people believe that Gogen was the successor. Not even Miyagi Sensei's Okinawan students were appointed successor. The closest and most notable student to receive anything from Miyagi Sensei was Higa Seko, to whom Miyagi awarded Shihan. The document is written in Miyagi's own handwriting, and is in the Museum built by Hokama Tetsuhiro Sensei, in his dojo.
🙇🏻
I practice Japanese guju Kai unfortunately it is I flawed style , it has no counters for if my kicking leg is grabbed by my opponent
Jump step supporting leg I to opponent and throw roundhouse to head, aim for neck to make up the distance
👍🏼
Real GojuRyu doesn't tech to fight so to speak, your taught how to properly punch, kick and block, and then your first kata, after you know your first kata well enough to pass grading to yellow belt, Senzi surprises students by fighting them all individually that day, the students were not told about direct combat fighting ever before this, so they are shocked and forced to use what they have learned from Kata during fighting, this helps them develop and pull chi from inside them, from only the kata moves they learned. It's a way to find their fighting spirit and develop inner chi, even though they are clueless to it all but are taught over time to tap inside and develop character more than defence or offence.
God Bless and Much Love
Everlast gloves suck. They fall apart. If you are getting into boxing you should buy better gear. Good luck with it.
Technically, those gloves were a gift to my mother for when she went into remission for breast cancer, so they're more for sentimental reasons than for training in. Thanks for the advice though, I'll keep it in mind the next time I'm in the market for gloves!
@@GojuRyuPhilosopher I am sorry to hear about your mom. Treasure those gloves. Keep up the hard work. "Shut up and train".
Honestly knowing that Japanese Goju-ryu school was partially founded by someone like Yamaguchi is all you need to realise it's waste of time.
I would be curious to hear what the reasons are for your negative comment regarding Gogan Yamaguchi. I don't know much about him.
@@stevesweeton131 I believe it was stated by Tetsuhiro Hokama to my sensei that he worked for Japanese, US and Soviet intelligence during WWII which makes him a tripple agent and pretty rotten as a man. Wiki does mention him working with US soldiers and soviets after he was captured by the latter.
Hokama also stated that he didn't study under Chojun Miyagi for long until he started doing his own thing which is popularising his watered down Goju-ryu to the masses in Japan. He wished to compete with Funakoshi's Shotokan. However Mas Oyama succeeded him in that with his Kyokushin which isn't even karate.
@@Mr440c Thanks for the insight. I studied Japanese Goju under Hanshi Angel (recently deceased) way back in the late 70's through the 80's. He studied under Peter Urban & then went to Japan and studied under Gogan Yamaguchi for about a year to earn his 3rd Dan. He never mentioned any questionable character of Gogan. Plus I don't know about the claim of weak or water-down either. It has served me quite well. However I do not know much about Okinawa Goju.
In regard to Self Defense, my philosophy has always been that it's more about dedication and athleticism of the individual than the style. As long as the school pressure-tests frequently with hard-sparing, most styles will serve you well. I agree that many Goju schools, both Japanese & Okinawan, focus primarily on Kata & very little, if any, sparing. So those that don't frequently hard-spare I won't consider a self-defense school. Those are simply philosophical dance schools/ black-belt-mills for soccer-mom kids. However it honestly depends on the individual & the particular school and not on the style.
But that is very interesting to hear about Gogan.
At 62 I've learned not to criticize a style because often you'll find yourself on your back in match in an open tournament or even worse, on the street by that "style". I use to make fun on Shito Ryu & Taikwondon't....LOL....until I got my ass kicked by one of each. Yahahaha, yep tough lesson for an arrogant young man with very little life experience.
I'm not trying to be controversial regarding the blanket categorization of an individual style. But I have say I wouldn't advise it in an open forum. However I'm old now and I have given up such bold ventures. My body is to broken-down now.
@@stevesweeton131 traditional Goju-ryu is a very whole school that doesn't focus on anything. You as a practitioner must focus on things yourself. It's been done on Okinawa back when karate hasn't even had this name "the chineese hand."
Now we live in dfferent environments so our rithm doesn't fit to those old ways of training.
I for one just focus on sanchin and breathing at the moment on sanchin with the supervision of my teacher. The correct breathing and learning to walk properly is essential for fighting. It is also good for my back that has quite a bit of protrusions. Our sensei often tells us to learn to walk. He emphasises that.
Being able to walk while throwing strikes or grappling is essentailly what is called a footwork. And breathing is essential for accumulating energy and being able to fight during sparring at all. If you can't breathe there comes a moment in a fight when you lose your confidence and can't do anything but throw one punch or a kick or some lazy ass atempt at throwing or holding your opponent.
In my oppinion we don't spar enough as you said but when it comes down to everything else I consider myself being lucky to attend to one of the best martial arts schools in the World. The knowledge we are getting is just that vast. It's just as you described yourself. Many of us are adult men that are quite hurt and sparring regularly is just that risky not to mention the differences in height and weight.
Chilldren group though spar every damn training. I envy them so much.
@@Mr440c What school do you attend & where?
Your experience sounds similar to mine. All styles in the US are going to make modifications to fit the sensei of each school. I personally believe all styles were meant to evolve. I don't buy into the philosophy of trying to keep it "pure" to it first origins. After all these "styles" all evolved from various other origins and adapted to as many regions. However, today there is far to much variation from my earlier days in the 70's. Back then there were only a handful of Goju schools across the the entire US, Japanese or Okinawan. Now there a dime a dozen with many self proclaimed very high dan levels. Superempei use to be a very secret kata only taught to very select black belts. It would not even be demonstrated outside of a black belt class. Now it's used in every competition I watch.
Plus there is very little bunkai and/or just wrong if they do. Example, I seldom hear many that even know the simple meaning of the same ending of every Goju kata...at least in Japanese Goju. Again I have seen very little Okinawan Goju.
Even Hanshi Angel made modifications to some kata and he learned them all much closer to the? original roots which many were modified by Gogan. J I remember discussing his reasoning & he was simply adapting details that simplified certain moves to make them much more practical. But he would stick with the foundation of each like not incorporating the pretty, high kicks of "other" styles. Kicking to the head just isn't practical
Okinawa
Anybody actually heard "damete keikou" in Oki? Never heard it being used there in three years.
The problem I have with guju kai karate is that it doesn't teach what to do if you're opponent grabs your leg and dus not let go
Gojuryu philosopher, or goofus?
Love the "Oss" comment
For me this was actually confusing. I had trained as a guest in Sydney with Yamaguchi Sensei (now head of the Goju Kai) and he specifically mentioned not using Ossu in karate. I believe that he considered it to be something a ruffian might use. His preference was for the Japanese 'hai' meaning Yes to confirm understanding. This was in the late 80's or early 90's, so maybe over time the Goju Kai just gave up an accepted Ossu. Who knows?
@@BelloBudo007 as far as I know, in mainland Japan, they use "oss", and in Okinawa, they use "hai" (pronounced as in the English word "hi").
I stick with USA GOJU 👊🏼🇺🇸
CHINESE GOJU RYU
Both hands above the screen son 🙈
You are very are miss inform about the Goju ryu Organizations in Japan .. THE JKF GOJU KAÍ IS the TRUE recognized government body for Goju ryu in Japan since 1972. recognized by the JKF and Japanese government… the OGKK IS the recognized Goju ryu body by the Okinawa n Government. The IOGKF cane out the OGKK .. There in many Okinawa goju ryu groups in Okinawa. They are all legit but they are slight different..,
Could you possibly be more wrong by trying to sound smart? A collegiate vocabulary doesn't make you right. Your mindset on this subject is very immature. Not saying that you are immature, but saying you obviously don't have enough depth and experience, nor a deeper understanding of the history to present this subject. You're way off base here and many of the other subjects you present are out of your league.
Go easy there - keep it friendly
Explain what you see are his errors, otherwise your critique is irrelevant.
Can you please show us where he is wrong, and what he said that was inaccurate?