The good news is that you are going to need a much bigger barn. I don't know of anybody that hasn't said, i wish this barn was bigger. And just think, you already have the trolley track laid out and installed that you'll need in your much bigger barn. Already looking forward to the videos on how you build your new much bigger barn. Cheers until your much bigger barn videos come out.
I had a feeling it would need to be resting on something to avoid twisting, still, you're halfway to now having a Tesla style mega factory with a rail line straight through. Sure half the fun is figuring it out, great work.
Good job. 👍👍👍 Thanks for sharing, Necessity is the mother of invention. The head is not just for growing lice. Read what Festy wrote. Make the arcs in sections and you don't have to rebuild the bender.
Though this must have been frustrating for you, your honest self appraisal and analysis is both entertaining and hugely to your credit. Well done and thank you once again. Martin on Rousay, Orkney.
I do enjoy your adventures. I have a large workshop on my rural property. I make all sorts of things, some prove to be more successful than others. All part of the learning curve.
Just been sent to watch this by one of my subscribers. I've just had a very similar problem on the one I built this week. I think you might be onto something with a horizontal machine then you can support the ends on benches etc. Great work. Love the train track. Keep up the good work. 👍👍
We had this problem with our commercially made roll bender at my last job. To some extent, I always thought it was somewhat on purpose, so that you can roll tighter circles without running into the machine. We once used it to make a helical sculpture, very cool! But yes, it just seems to be a feature of that style of bender and not your build that is at fault.
Perhaps you could add an upside down bottle of soapy water with hose & tap to feed it into the rollers while you are bending, this might prevent it from twisting & make it easier to bend the steel. I've seen people also weld a vertical length of pipe temporarily to the ends so that they have a exaggerated T shape so someone can hold a round steel bar through the middle of the vertical pipe to keep it from twisting too.
Hi Tim I used to make round hay bale feeders and have bent plenty of tubing on a chinese rolling machine. The machine I used had about the same spacing between the dies as your machine but I bent 2.5mm galvanized tubing. The tubing you are bending looks like 3-4mm thick. If I were you I would space the dies further apart to have more pressure on the pipe. If you had a second story or pit you could swop the dies around so your pipe hangs while you roll but horizontal will keep it ground level. I used to center the seam of the pipes towards the center pulley to help keep the wall thickness even around the bend. A reversable motor will help you keep your hands free while you guide the pipe through the dies. Never guide the pipe from the feeding side, guide it from the side it exits, that way you "pull" the pipe into a straight bend or curve. Good luck!
I think it's wheel alignment, this will be compounded by the weight of the pipe. Over 6metres a few thou or 1/100th a mil will will make a lot of difference! The commercial horizontal ring rollers that I have worked with didn't have any end support. You might be able to compensate with out-feed rollers that you could adjust in height, I hope so!
have you tried simply reversing the pipe with each trip through the bender? That's what I do in a simple rolling mill for nonferrous metal bars, wires and sheets
Yes I thought the same Tim, you'd have to lay the machine on its side. But then you'd have to place te supporting rollers at ever closer intervals... unless you'd take a concrete floor as support. Is the terrain around your house quite as big as the sky is tall over there? I admire your perseverance
a dirty quick solution - hang two pulleys a couple meters above the press and tie the ends of the pipe to a rope, and a 10-20 kilo weight on the other.
Something I think I would try, although it might not work, is to support the dangly end of the pipe with a rope that hangs from your roof, as straight to your roller as you can arrange it. Obviously, there will be a point where you won't be able to do this anymore, but maybe by that point the curve will be established enough that the corkscrew won't happen as much? It's probably worth trying before you chop the whole thing apart to re-engineer it.
This makes me wonder what would happen if the dies were swapped top for bottom so that the pipe bends down rather than up. I guess you'd need to build a tower to put it on then!
Yes, yes, yes! Turn gravity from enemy into collaborator! Plus a tall tower is always better than a short tower whether you decide you need a much larger barn, or not.
only then you'd have to raise yourself with the pipe roller while you're bending the pipe because you wouldn't quite be able to reach it once the bend is getting to a certain stage
could a setup similar to bent wood lamination work? Where you make a horizontal contour and then bend the pipe to shape by running a chain through it and pulling it in with a come-along or something similar. Obviously with all the work that already went into making this contraption, converting it to horizontal probably makes more sense, just wondering.
I think it would be an improvement yes. One thing to think about is that with a pipe rolling machine like this, we are always left with a short straight segment at the end of each curve we make. It is always as least as long as the distance from one of the outer bending wheels to the centre wheel. One way round this problem is if we can later weld up the segments, and then roll them into a full circle in one piece, but if the machine's shape and size doesn't allow for that, then we end up wasting quite a bit of pipe, depending on how many segments we've used. If those offcuts can be used for something else though, no problem!
Still think, that horizontal orientation will be better, but how about upside down? The end of the pipe would bend towards the ground, so it will not have to support itself, but in this case you should put your bender on the roof, or dig a trench for the pipe XD
I made a pipe roller like yours. I had to make safety rails for a chemical tank. I turned the roller upside down from the way yours is oriented. I then suspended the thing from my fork lift. I let gravity work for me. I successfully built my railings. I used the roller for just the one job. That was more than 20 years ago. I used a screw instead of hydraulics.
It happens all the time with that sort of roller. A lot of times you will see people have angle finders and a big pipe wrench on the pipe to try to force it to stay straight. For really long curves you basically have to increase the distance between the rollers to support it better.. If you think of it as a triangle you are making the base wider to make it more stable.
One option, make the polytonal supports sectional, rather than one full swept bend something like a gothic arc - two straight verticals jointed to two arch sections. Yes, fair bit of work for the connectors but actually a nicer space to use in the end thanks to the additional height at the sides. The two arch sections would have thought would be small enough not to have the spiralling issue due to a fraction of the weight and length -being around a quarter of what you are working with now.
You are a natural engineer much like my grandfather was. He was not University trained but was an inventor just like you. What you are doing is called Research and Development. In your case is driven by economics and need.
I understand the effect of gravity on the pipe, but are you sure that 6-8mm lateral movement in your top roller isn't the cause? I think some HDPE milk carton shims could help a lot.
What you have should (will) work with some minor adjustment to technique. I suggest you apply a pipe wrench to the work piece to counter the longitudinal twist as you roll. You will need to take multiple small bites and apply a little torque every meter or so as you roll. Will be easier with a helper, but it can be done one handed. As your machine may want to tip as the torque is applied, best to nip the bend in the undesired dimension in the bud. You are only trying to counter the off axis weight of the pipe. A horizontal rig will do the same thing; need some torque on the workpiece regardless. Nice vid.
Just an idea...if its on its side, instead of having to support the whole lenght of the pipe as it comes out, could you rest and hold the extruded end in place on a small dolley trolley to support it, and the force of the pipe being pushed through the machine would move the support trolley along the ground and if needs be use a second one if theres too much sag as it it comes out ?
Can you turn your rolling setup upside down, at least until the pipe hits the ground. If it starts off bending straight by hanging down then maybe it would continue straight after that if you then swap the rollers to roll upwards again. A bit of a faff though.
Tim, this won't work but if you had a pipe welded or fitted a pipe at 90°and pointed up relative to the bender you could ensure it stays aligned until it has sufficient curve to make it impossible to fall and produce Cork screw. Try laying in bed with your arm vertical , it takes no effort but as soon as it wanders from the upright it's all down to muscle or friction between pipe and rollers in your case. A scaffold Tee may hold it with a lever in it.
tim tie a cable on both sides of the pipe and use a turn buckle to pull back the pipe if i starts to wonder away both side must have turn buckles to adjust left or right you can tie it off on a heavy object i made a roller what is happening is normal
@@WayOutWestx2 if you take your time you will finish faster the idea is to keep the pipe straight while rolling or build a strong table and rest the roller face down so it will be horizontal so you can get better access to keep the pipe straight
Kind of confused. If you are making a poly tunnel, don't you just need to bend half the pipe & keep the legs straight? Probably I am not understanding as if you do need a u section you would only need to bend half the pipe, then weld half the remaining straight pieces to either side of the bend. Still a horizontal bender might be fun. Thanks for sharing!
It depends how big you want your tunnel to be. You could use a few lengths for one frame if you wanted it really big, but I'm aiming for one curved length over the top, with straight legs attached.
Did you make sure that your axes of rotations are (and stays) really parallel to each other and perpendicular to the pipe? Think about it as if the pipe was spinning: the folding action would spin as well, and induce the cork screw effect. one way to make sure the pipe would spin on itself is to tilt your wheels. (so ... dont do that !!!)
Thanks Thomas. I have a horrible feeling you may be right. I've just cut it up and when I checked for parallel they were out by a tiny bit. Obviously they were right when I first put it up but something may have moved. Silly me!
@@WayOutWestx2 Thinking again this morning, I think perpendicular to the tube is the most important. They could be parallel to each other but skewed and induce a roll of the tube. Also its possible that this effect is increased by the way your wheels are produced (groovy ..) Try putting some graphite on the tube to make it slippery. Oil or grease might not work because too much pressure.
No the problem is you made it too weak ,you need to make it more. Heavier the plate steel above the jack needs to be thicker but if you make it heavier you won't be able to move it by hand that's what I think don't scrap it use it on smaller pipes
"The sky is very tall" - great saying Tim! I'm sure you'll find a solution! Great video!
The good news is that you are going to need a much bigger barn.
I don't know of anybody that hasn't said, i wish this barn was bigger.
And just think, you already have the trolley track laid out and installed that you'll need in your much bigger barn.
Already looking forward to the videos on how you build your new much bigger barn.
Cheers until your much bigger barn videos come out.
It's good you make mistakes. It only means we get to see you figure out how to fix them
I had a feeling it would need to be resting on something to avoid twisting, still, you're halfway to now having a Tesla style mega factory with a rail line straight through. Sure half the fun is figuring it out, great work.
That transition with the machine rolling from the old track to the new outdoor track was flawless. I'm impressed!
I LOVE "failure" videos! Documenting what doesnt work, is every bit as valuable as documenting what does.
I’m chuffed to see how confident you’ve become at welding with the new welder 👍👍👍
You and me both!
Yes, just take care to avoid the fumes from zinc galv. Bad stuff for us as our bodies concentrate it/ bioaccumulate it fairly efficiently.
Yes in Hungary the home made pipe benders are on tables and horizontal.. good luck.
They say, 'education is expensive', so i'll learn from you. Enjoyable video.
Good job. 👍👍👍 Thanks for sharing, Necessity is the mother of invention. The head is not just for growing lice. Read what Festy wrote. Make the arcs in sections and you don't have to rebuild the bender.
When will it cease to be a pipe dream. If at first.......Good luck Tim.
I have complete faith that you will get this all figured out.
Ha! Thanks, Jennifer : - )
Kudos on not giving up!
Love your channel. Especially the troubleshooting videos.
Great effort anyway from which we can all learn from.👍☘️
Or maybe short segments anyway the trial and error process could result in an unexpected happy breakthrough! Good luck Tim, may the force be with you!
👍👌👏 Yes, and may the bending force not be against him
Best regards luck and health.!
Though this must have been frustrating for you, your honest self appraisal and analysis is both entertaining and hugely to your credit. Well done and thank you once again. Martin on Rousay, Orkney.
Much appreciated!
Love the commentary on these videos
Good luck Tim !
Good luck with the horizontal pipe roller! I look forward to seeing future endeavors!
You and me both!
Interesting I have used commercial built pipe rollers and had the same problem and they are built upright. Good idea to build it on it side. John
I do enjoy your adventures. I have a large workshop on my rural property. I make all sorts of things, some prove to be more successful than others. All part of the learning curve.
Good luck. We all know you will work it out, you always do and we love watching you working stuff out ❤️❤️❤️
Ah, the scientific process! ... I reckon the horizontal tango ought to work. Good luck. :)
Good luck, I have faith in you, I know you can do it
Good Luck Tim
Good luck Tim
Good luck Tim.
Thank you!
Thanks for sharing. Failures are interesting too.
Happier New Year!
Here wishing you luck! Love the project.
Just been sent to watch this by one of my subscribers. I've just had a very similar problem on the one I built this week. I think you might be onto something with a horizontal machine then you can support the ends on benches etc. Great work. Love the train track. Keep up the good work. 👍👍
Thanks. You too. Oh, for a lathe like yours : - )
Horizontal roller build coming along nicely - video up in a day or two..
Great video and you learn from your mistakes
Check the hydraulic jack works on its side cause I had one that wouldn’t due to the oil level whilst on its side
It may only be happy in a particular orientation, probably something inconvenient like the handle on the bottom.
@@hughbrackett343 ha ha
I'm intrigued, Richi - can you tell me more? Send a link?
It does work on its side, but it's seeping oil - so I need to do it another way
Make the hoops in three sections & weld a spigot in the ends. Drill through for a retaining pin.
You are so great, Tim.
We had this problem with our commercially made roll bender at my last job. To some extent, I always thought it was somewhat on purpose, so that you can roll tighter circles without running into the machine. We once used it to make a helical sculpture, very cool! But yes, it just seems to be a feature of that style of bender and not your build that is at fault.
That's reassuring to hear - thanks.
Perhaps you could add an upside down bottle of soapy water with hose & tap to feed it into the rollers while you are bending, this might prevent it from twisting & make it easier to bend the steel. I've seen people also weld a vertical length of pipe temporarily to the ends so that they have a exaggerated T shape so someone can hold a round steel bar through the middle of the vertical pipe to keep it from twisting too.
Love watching your videos :)
Could be an idea for spiral stairway
This is exactly how I have seen them made. Add a pipe wrench to control the amount of twist.
Learning by doing. It's the only way . . .
I'm sure you'll get it to work. Love the pizza iron btw.
Thanks, Nigel : - )
Hi Tim I used to make round hay bale feeders and have bent plenty of tubing on a chinese rolling machine. The machine I used had about the same spacing between the dies as your machine but I bent 2.5mm galvanized tubing. The tubing you are bending looks like 3-4mm thick. If I were you I would space the dies further apart to have more pressure on the pipe. If you had a second story or pit you could swop the dies around so your pipe hangs while you roll but horizontal will keep it ground level. I used to center the seam of the pipes towards the center pulley to help keep the wall thickness even around the bend. A reversable motor will help you keep your hands free while you guide the pipe through the dies. Never guide the pipe from the feeding side, guide it from the side it exits, that way you "pull" the pipe into a straight bend or curve. Good luck!
Thanks, Corver, but I solved the problem - have a look at this th-cam.com/video/Esn1ZTaID9g/w-d-xo.html
Well, it would seem that you’re on the right track now Tm. 😝
Adjustable roller stands 👍🏻
I think it's wheel alignment, this will be compounded by the weight of the pipe. Over 6metres a few thou or 1/100th a mil will will make a lot of difference! The commercial horizontal ring rollers that I have worked with didn't have any end support. You might be able to compensate with out-feed rollers that you could adjust in height, I hope so!
I think you could be right - or partially right, at least. I'm halfway through the new build so I hope to find out soon..
have you tried simply reversing the pipe with each trip through the bender? That's what I do in a simple rolling mill for nonferrous metal bars, wires and sheets
Yes I thought the same Tim, you'd have to lay the machine on its side. But then you'd have to place te supporting rollers at ever closer intervals... unless you'd take a concrete floor as support. Is the terrain around your house quite as big as the sky is tall over there? I admire your perseverance
a dirty quick solution - hang two pulleys a couple meters above the press and tie the ends of the pipe to a rope, and a 10-20 kilo weight on the other.
Something I think I would try, although it might not work, is to support the dangly end of the pipe with a rope that hangs from your roof, as straight to your roller as you can arrange it. Obviously, there will be a point where you won't be able to do this anymore, but maybe by that point the curve will be established enough that the corkscrew won't happen as much? It's probably worth trying before you chop the whole thing apart to re-engineer it.
This makes me wonder what would happen if the dies were swapped top for bottom so that the pipe bends down rather than up. I guess you'd need to build a tower to put it on then!
Yes, yes, yes! Turn gravity from enemy into collaborator! Plus a tall tower is always better than a short tower whether you decide you need a much larger barn, or not.
you could flip the machine upside down, raise it to the required height, and then the weight of the pipe would be an aid rather than a hindrance.
only then you'd have to raise yourself with the pipe roller while you're bending the pipe because you wouldn't quite be able to reach it once the bend is getting to a certain stage
@@Kirmeins der
could a setup similar to bent wood lamination work? Where you make a horizontal contour and then bend the pipe to shape by running a chain through it and pulling it in with a come-along or something similar. Obviously with all the work that already went into making this contraption, converting it to horizontal probably makes more sense, just wondering.
You're right - it could work. But then you'd need a different form for every different thing you want to make..
Would it be easier to cut the pipe into shorter lengths, roll them into arcs , and then weld them together into the full size arch?
I think it would be an improvement yes. One thing to think about is that with a pipe rolling machine like this, we are always left with a short straight segment at the end of each curve we make. It is always as least as long as the distance from one of the outer bending wheels to the centre wheel. One way round this problem is if we can later weld up the segments, and then roll them into a full circle in one piece, but if the machine's shape and size doesn't allow for that, then we end up wasting quite a bit of pipe, depending on how many segments we've used. If those offcuts can be used for something else though, no problem!
Still think, that horizontal orientation will be better, but how about upside down? The end of the pipe would bend towards the ground, so it will not have to support itself, but in this case you should put your bender on the roof, or dig a trench for the pipe XD
On the roof and bent back through the doors Tim, that's the one I'm voting for.
I'm tempted, but The roof wouldn't support me and the machine even if I could get it up there. And a trench would quickly become a duck pond : - )
Yes . You should have built it on its side. Or a 45 degree angle , which is halfway between.
I made a pipe roller like yours. I had to make safety rails for a chemical tank. I turned the roller upside down from the way yours is oriented. I then suspended the thing from my fork lift. I let gravity work for me. I successfully built my railings. I used the roller for just the one job. That was more than 20 years ago. I used a screw instead of hydraulics.
Excellent. Yes, if I had a way to lift the roller up, that would make sense for me too
It happens all the time with that sort of roller. A lot of times you will see people have angle finders and a big pipe wrench on the pipe to try to force it to stay straight. For really long curves you basically have to increase the distance between the rollers to support it better.. If you think of it as a triangle you are making the base wider to make it more stable.
Yes, that sounds right.
You could say... there is a learning curve to bending pipes.
Ha!
That's like a roller coaster track very hard to make deliberately
One option, make the polytonal supports sectional, rather than one full swept bend something like a gothic arc - two straight verticals jointed to two arch sections. Yes, fair bit of work for the connectors but actually a nicer space to use in the end thanks to the additional height at the sides. The two arch sections would have thought would be small enough not to have the spiralling issue due to a fraction of the weight and length -being around a quarter of what you are working with now.
"the sky around here is very tall" 🤣🤣🤣
Lucky😆
You are a natural engineer much like my grandfather was. He was not University trained but was an inventor just like you. What you are doing is called Research and Development. In your case is driven by economics and need.
I understand the effect of gravity on the pipe, but are you sure that 6-8mm lateral movement in your top roller isn't the cause? I think some HDPE milk carton shims could help a lot.
What you have should (will) work with some minor adjustment to technique. I suggest you apply a pipe wrench to the work piece to counter the longitudinal twist as you roll. You will need to take multiple small bites and apply a little torque every meter or so as you roll. Will be easier with a helper, but it can be done one handed. As your machine may want to tip as the torque is applied, best to nip the bend in the undesired dimension in the bud. You are only trying to counter the off axis weight of the pipe. A horizontal rig will do the same thing; need some torque on the workpiece regardless. Nice vid.
I know i'm late, but...how much is the zoom on that camera?
And how much was the camera?
Just an idea...if its on its side, instead of having to support the whole lenght of the pipe as it comes out, could you rest and hold the extruded end in place on a small dolley trolley to support it, and the force of the pipe being pushed through the machine would move the support trolley along the ground and if needs be use a second one if theres too much sag as it it comes out ?
Exactly - dollies everywhere
@@WayOutWestx2 you can never have too many dollies ! lol
Can you turn your rolling setup upside down, at least until the pipe hits the ground. If it starts off bending straight by hanging down then maybe it would continue straight after that if you then swap the rollers to roll upwards again. A bit of a faff though.
Unfortunately it's a bit complicated to do that - but thanks for the suggestion.
This comment is here to boost your standing in the youtube algorithm
And maybe this reply will help!
@@JDeWittDIY Good thinking :)
@@CraigsWorkshop I think any and all activity in the comments will help! :)
Good job boys!
@@JDeWittDIY What a great little corner of the internet :)
Why not make gothic arch polytunnel with 3 bends or bend at the top and arched sides ... would you need to build a swage tool then 😁
Crickey , dont you ever give up ! maybe it is a quick re-jig of the old one ? I hope so.
The rolls I made I put out side and put the machine on its side.
Warts and all. Rare these times.
Tim, this won't work but if you had a pipe welded or fitted a pipe at 90°and pointed up relative to the bender you could ensure it stays aligned until it has sufficient curve to make it impossible to fall and produce Cork screw. Try laying in bed with your arm vertical , it takes no effort but as soon as it wanders from the upright it's all down to muscle or friction between pipe and rollers in your case. A scaffold Tee may hold it with a lever in it.
Time to make a REALLY tall vertical machkime
tim tie a cable on both sides of the pipe and use a turn buckle to pull back the pipe if i starts to wonder away both side must have turn buckles to adjust left or right you can tie it off on a heavy object i made a roller what is happening is normal
It might work - but it would be very slow, wouldn't it?
@@WayOutWestx2 if you take your time you will finish faster the idea is to keep the pipe straight while rolling or build a strong table and rest the roller face down so it will be horizontal so
you can get better access to keep the pipe straight
no such thing as a mistake just oppitunites to learn
the ongoing discovery process of finding new, not-obvious problems. But if you don't try you don't find out...
Kind of confused. If you are making a poly tunnel, don't you just need to bend half the pipe & keep the legs straight? Probably I am not understanding as if you do need a u section you would only need to bend half the pipe, then weld half the remaining straight pieces to either side of the bend. Still a horizontal bender might be fun. Thanks for sharing!
It depends how big you want your tunnel to be. You could use a few lengths for one frame if you wanted it really big, but I'm aiming for one curved length over the top, with straight legs attached.
make the hoops out of 2inch water pipe
You two have Sisu. If you end up not able to make straight curves you might have made the worlds largest wine opener maker instead.
Good luck with finding a solution. I don't suppose you have checked youtube for videos showing how big companies do it?
That would be too easy!
@@WayOutWestx2 Handmade Extreme (Another Brit) has just released a video of him making a roller.
Thanks, I'll look him up. (But I'm not a Brit!)
Супер!!!
Did you make sure that your axes of rotations are (and stays) really parallel to each other and perpendicular to the pipe? Think about it as if the pipe was spinning: the folding action would spin as well, and induce the cork screw effect. one way to make sure the pipe would spin on itself is to tilt your wheels. (so ... dont do that !!!)
Thanks Thomas. I have a horrible feeling you may be right. I've just cut it up and when I checked for parallel they were out by a tiny bit. Obviously they were right when I first put it up but something may have moved. Silly me!
@@WayOutWestx2 Thinking again this morning, I think perpendicular to the tube is the most important. They could be parallel to each other but skewed and induce a roll of the tube. Also its possible that this effect is increased by the way your wheels are produced (groovy ..) Try putting some graphite on the tube to make it slippery. Oil or grease might not work because too much pressure.
God loves a trier.
Why not build it upside down?
that sounds exhausting
Turn it upside down. The weight of the pipe will add to the downward curve.
You're right - but I'd need a big hole for that
What he do?
Make a curly-que
Out in the blue
Boo-Hoo-Hoo
Ha!
I'm sure there is someone who needs cork screw pipe?
Go home pipe, your drunk 😁
Luck
No the problem is you made it too weak ,you need to make it more. Heavier the plate steel above the jack needs to be thicker but if you make it heavier you won't be able to move it by hand that's what I think don't scrap it use it on smaller pipes