@@RickMcCargar I totally agree, I did not hear civility at all. This is an "Oh sh#t I didn't know what I was talking about when I assumed that JHS was ripping people off" video! Again, did this guy do this (guitar effects pedal maker) rip people off when they gave me a free pedal?
classy to me would have just been removing the original video and saying sorry... not pretending to "not know what it actually takes to make a pedal" or to "not expect the roasting he got"... this guy has zero credibility lol
I've never understood the obsession with how much money other people are making. If you paid $150 for a pedal, and the manufacturer made $149 from it, so what? It was obviously worth $150 to you, or you wouldn't have paid it. If you had known the manufacturer's margin before buying it, would it have made a difference? If so, fine, but that just means it's more important for you to somehow punish the maker for making a lot of money than to have the tone you want. If you ask me, JHS should make more profit than they do, but the market obviously disagrees with me on that. Anyway, props to JNC for admitting error and to JHS for educating everyone. Like most people, I'm encouraged by the civility on display here.
Well said. Consumers buy value, not cost plus some arbitrary markup. If you manage to build something for a $1 that people are willing to pay $500 for, you deserve every bit of that $499.
I mean being a consumer you have to have some way to gauge the value of something aside from it's price or wouldn't you always just buy the most expensive thing you could afford? I understand where he was coming from in the original video in that sense--as trying to figure the value of something based on its components is the most obvious way to try to figure out if you're getting what you're paying for. But obviously there are many many many real world situations where that kind of calculation makes no sense (why does it cost $25 to park during an event? because it's worth it). So I don't really think JNC was being intentionally accusatory except in the somewhat clickbaity title, he just really didn't have any idea what the like inherent value of a pedal is to know what the bang-for-the-buck is. It's a way of thinking.
Wrong. He started by making a ton of faulty assumptions that proved he knows nothing about building a manufacturing business.. He was gracious after being called out, nicely, by Josh.
That’s the wrong attitude to have, the same way J Cordy was feeling is the same way A LOT of people have been feeling about pedal companies for years and now EVERYONE can see a video J Cordy and Josh Video and have a deeper understanding how the industry works.
I don’t get the hate, this is a win win situation. Pedal manufacturers get to clear up some frustrating misconceptions for them around the business, and consumers get educated on what actually goes into making a pedal and why the prices are what they are. Win-win 👍🏻
his video didn't need to be made in the first place. You don't need to own a business to understand basic overhead cost. it cost money and a LOT of time and effort to make all the things we have. all you see is the finished product, and none of the work that went into making it.
Its pretty simple. Any builder can charge how much they want about anything, people can buy it or not Its a free world. Dont get the need of explosure people sitting in they rooms need about everything nowadays Just get a cheaper pedal. People dont make videos taking a Ferrari or a Rolex claiming that its a rip off
Another important lesson here is that on the internet or in any media, it’s well known that asking a question like “Are pedal companies ripping us off?” implies an answer in the affirmative. In politics and sensationalist journalism, asking a question can be a sneaky way of putting ideas into people’s heads. I don’t think you were doing that on purpose, but the result was the same. Big respect to you for this video retraction and apology. As Josh said, both of you have educated us on this subject, as well as demonstrating civility that is so rare on the internet. Thank you for your educational channel, your fantastic playing, and your example of handling this conversation so graciously. ☮️☮️
I'd love to see you fly out to JHS and put a pedal together and Josh talk you through why, how and the idea behind the pedal you could build, if such a thing was possible...
This is a video I'd love to see. Especially given John's demonstrated comfort with both the digital and analog world and could speak well to some of the pros and cons of digital/modeling/etc. and where he sees that space while also speaking to his obvious affinity for real amps and analog pedals. The icing on the cake would be taking an existing JHS Pedal and making a limited run with some branding/word play on this TH-cam video exchange they just had in front of us all. Add a mode switch called Civility.
Everyone always forgets the costs of doing business. Little things like tools, insurance, rent/mortgage, taxes, employee wages, their taxes, their health insurance, electricity, water, gas, sewer, trash, and lots of little things that add to the costs of doing business. Now think that doubling the cost of producing an item will cover everything? Not on your life. That’s why things cost what they cost. This country got stuck onto cheap stuff at the beginning of globalization and cheap labor and Walmart, EBay prices and can’t escape it. That’s why we can’t understand how prices go up and why. Now you know pass it on. ThanksJosh.
This this and this. What's a man's time worth to make a new product line in the first place? It's worth a lot, especially if you own the business. You do that because you're passionate about what you do, not because you want to rip people off. Listening to some young guy with no experience claim that so-and-so is ripping them off is infuriating. Anyone who's started a business has had to spend money and time on things they never imagined, has had get 34 different stupid permits for things that don't matter, has had to secure 5 different kinds of insurance, has had to suck up to venture capitalists to secure funding ... let's not even start with taxes ... ooooh did we mention that today, you'll sweat unforeseeable increases in overhead costs because of a new shipping tariff in Cairo? And your roof is leaking. It never ends.
I subscribe to you and JHS. Speaking purely from an engineers background, I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed by your video. I then watched Josh's response and have to say that he was very gentlemanly. I think this video is brilliant and I appreciate everything you've said. Well done sir.
Personally, I think this whole situation has been very positive due to the maturity of the people involved. Unlike many of the comments. Some of the haters are honestly telling me that they don't see a nice new piece of gear on the odd occasion that interests them and then think jesus, no way would I pay that, what a ridiculous price. I know I do regularly of late. The fact that Josh is so willingly transparent is commendable, he has just done the pedal industry as a whole a huge favour with his explanation. A consumer will ultimately pay what they can afford if they really want something, or buy a knock off version which satisfies their yourning. Anyone here know a typical consumer who fully researches B2B and B2C before buying? I don't. John is clearly a well meaning guy, I think picking up on a specific brand was probably the big mistake but TBF Josh had done the Ross video which I think sparked the questions initially. Really enjoy both channels and will continue to do so.
I just don't get it. John, in the interest of his audience, publicly raised a question on the actual costs of manufacturing of the products. There is a lot of paid content, lots of TH-camrs get paid for the "reviews", a lot of shilling is going on and a lot of companies are selling way overpriced stuff because, of course, there are magic germanium diodes inside, and when a guy is doing something out of good will, he gets a lot of backlash from butthurt fanboys "I'm unsubsribing, bla bla, misinformation, bla bla". This is not CNN but an opinion channel and there is no requirement for John to spend his time doing complex research on supply chains and whatnot. In return, you got an official response from the company and you gained some knowledge how this business operates. You win as a consumer.
no, i saw a few min of JHS response, enough to get the point and this vid showed up in sidebar and I watched enough of this to get the point as well. I doubt I would have clicked a vid that seemed to imply that American pedal companies are ripping everyone off, cause that is silly.
Nice apology. If you´ve ever tried to run a business you´d know how you price your products depending on the price it costs to make it, the market price, the demand for it and the cost of your whole opertation. Josh was really kind and didactic in his video, so you´ve learned a lot and so the rest of us.
I haven't seen a backpedal that smooth since Michael Jackson's Moonwalk. Something else that is never considered is that you're also paying for tge R&D for every FAILED design that never makes it to market.
Fair play on this one, John. Much respect to anyone who puts their hand up when they get it wrong. Fair play to Josh too, for being very gentlemanly. Not everything on the interwebs is toxic.
Owning up to your mistakes is important. Josh didn't need to respond to your prior video, but he was compelled to and educated all of us on what it takes to run a US based oedal company. I appreciate that you owned up that you were initially misinformed. I rarely buy new unless it's a great deal, otherwise I stick with buying gently or barely used gear.
You asked a fair question, Josh replied in an informative way. I’m sure we all learnt something. End of, as I see it - I don’t get why so many haters started coming for you, maybe this video will help them to feel better
He asked a fair question, with a bit of sarcasm.....let's be honest.....he did not get his facts straight, instead was more concerned about hitting his mark of putting out 3 to 5videos per day....if you are on a platform you are responsible for your comments.....
@@gmcsilverado4183 he asked ‘are pedal companies ripping us off’. Fair question as I see it. Gear has gotten expensive, we’re now seeing $1000 pedals. I know that’s not JHS but whatever. The whole thing from John seemed light hearted to me. He even jokingly pulled the pedal to bits and called himself a knob. It’s not this serious man, no need for the drama.
This is how real men with integrity handle their business. I have made respect for both of you. Subscribe to you both for years now. Fantastic job bro...now we need the JNC DRIVE DELAY REVERB FROM JHS!!😊
TBH, I'm amazed that any small company can keep going in today's music gear marketplace. It's pretty cutthroat, especially with knockoff experts in the far east breathing down their necks and cloning anything successful. Look how the music shops have nearly all disappeared in the face of competition from online dealers. Hats off to the dedication and enthusiasm of these mad scientists that keep pushing, innovating, refining - all so we can sound better.
I feel the average guitar consumer is lacking in a basic understanding of business economics. In general, they shouldn’t be critical of a product’s pricing until they’ve tried running a business. And even then, one basic premise of economics is that if the market thinks something is overpriced, people won’t buy it. So if you don’t want it, just don’t buy it. Who cares if you think others are getting gouged, that’s their problem, a business isn’t being predatory unless they are overly lying about something in the process of selling you an item. Edit: I should clarify that it’s okay to have an opinion. That opinion will just be sort of useless (in MY opinion) if it centers on “I don’t like the profit margin this company is making.” That’s just business. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
Love this channel and will continue to watch, however, I think an overriding point is still missed in this little hubbub: If titles like: "is so-and-so ripping us off?" are released by sources with significantly sized audiences, then the seeds of that possibility are planted in many minds, and a certain number of those minds will tend to consider it true until unproven, even if no credible proof of it is presented in the first place. Once this effect takes hold, it may be hard to undo. So "Poorly worded" could be an understatement - "100% verify your proof before posing such "questions" to an attentive audience" would seem more applicable. Is the concept of how this works really a mystery to so many? Words are powerful (+to quote JHS: "words is hard") Anyway, keep up the great work on this channel - great content here.
no. i dont want to see a reward for that much of a fuckup come out of this for him. He should be ashamed and learn from that not take it as an opportunity to broaden his channel.viewerbase.
1) these are luxury goods. If you find them expensive then there are always alternatives that compete. 2) if you want to support living wages for employees and keep a business open then we have to be willing to pay the cost for the item we want. 3) Competition keeps the pricing in check and if they can maximize their profits in the process, that’s just good business.
You also have to remember that buying in the UK inport duty has to be paid (and that is also applied to the shipping) plus the additional 20% VAT which makes things a lot worse (as retailers pass all the costs for dealing with such things on to the customer) I discovered the costs when i built my own big muff varient that a load if friends liked and wanted, nobody would have wanted to pay for the time and work. Its really hard to understand where the costs come from till you try to build something. Well done for addressing the misunderstanding
As an American, I must say there is a cultural difference. I know John's apology is forthright and sincere, but, the British have a way of making everything sound a little cheeky, and we forgive you most of the time. Thank you JNC for making the attempt to right what was definitely at least "bad form" as you Brits say.
For reference, I used to design the physical parts of electronic gadgets for a big company. We had relatively low volumes (numbers of units to make). We found that the prices did not get significantly better until we could order 10,000 units of an item per year. Below that number (per SKU), costs did not come down. This was for electronic devices made and assembled in the USA. If your product line has 25 different devices, you'd need to order 10K for each of them to get really good costs. You can do the math. Josh is almost certainly paying twice what a high volume manufacturer would be paying, especially for off-shore.
It’s all the hidden cost that people who have never ran a business don’t see. And remember people like Josh won’t work an 8 hour day , they will be working even when asleep. Kudos to you mate for this video. I can fully understand what you are saying about the high end pedals. But then again a banana gaffa taped to a wall just sold for 5mil so wtf do we know
Thanks John, for making this video. We are all nob heads asking questions and you making a follow up video like this shows you are an honest broker. I think JHS really put his soul in trying to resurrect the Ross brand and so your video gave him a chance to do public therapy.
As you said, we as consumers don't know...and most companies are not going to share the details as freely as JHS...so you posed as reasonable question and Josh responded... manufacturing in the US IS ridiculously high however,with a lot of companies opting to send manufacturing overseas (to China, Indonesia, Vietnam and so on)which does massively increase profits ...but as you said we had no way of knowing.
I actually happy you brought up these questions cause to be honest I had these thoughts myself and thanks to you and Josh’s honesty and dignity it helped me understand better the real full story behind these things. You actually raised up I think every consumer’s assumptions and helped out clearing this off. Thank you for that and for all the videos you’re making.
While manufacturing, transportation, distribution and retail markup have lots of unknowns, I think that it's still ok to ask why Fender can make an entire modeling amp complete with cabinet and speaker for close to or less than their pedalboard amp. In other words, critical awareness and logic can still let us ask sometimes what gives?
Well done for posting this. You're right, Josh was very gracious in his reply. I took your original video as a genuine question, not an accusation, and we've all benefited from the resulting discussion with a better understanding of how the market works. 👍
I don’t think that is why people question price. It’s the cheap Chinese pedals, which some are great. Josh explains almost half the margin is going to the stores. That means a $99 pedal is really a $50 pedal. That brings jhs and china much closer.
@@BOSSenjoyer Different companies have different costs and don't you remember how cheap Chinese labour has been in comparison with American Labour,,,if you want a cheap clone, get it but if you want the quality you get from American or UK Companies then there are hidden costs in running those companies as well as the standards for the high quality components, in those cases where they are higher quality......demonfx do a great quality KOT but it won't be quite the same and the costs involved in creating it will be entirely different to the Chinese knockoff or wherever it comes from...this is all clear I won't comment further
@@ValBoschi-ix9cd That's not worth $190 to me for a clone of a two knob compressor, and everyone else obviously. An original only costs that much because of collector value, not musician value.
Being an good guitar player and "youtube famous" doesn't make anyone an expert in anything else. Great lesson. Should have started with questions instead of assumptions. I built a 3500 employee IC design/mfg co with facilities in U.S., Europe and Asia. When I saw your video, the points made were so entirely off the mark that it was laughable. People get a bit of fame, and it goes to their head. Josh did a great job explaining the many ways you had no idea what you were talking about...while being gracious.
This is fascinating. The Curse of Knowledge vs The Dunning-Kruger Effect. On one hand, business owners know so much about the cost of doing business and how systems work that its harder to remember a time when you had no business side knowledge at all, from the consumer perspective, aka The Curse of Knowledge. On the other hand, the less you know about something the more you think you understand because you lack the necessary knowledge you would need to know what you're missing. As Steven Fry once said, "You have to be pretty smart to know how dumb you are." This back-and-forth pits two classic cognitive biases against each other, but in a super respectful give and take that was refreshing to watch.
To give a reasonably good example of base costs… A Morning Glory clone kit from a UK based company that I use regularly is £48.60 + postage. That includes the PCB, all parts, a Gorva (decent quality) footswitch and a Hammond enclosure (industry standard) You then have to build it yourself. Factor in your own time, electricity, soldering equipment and accessories… There ain’t much in it! The satisfaction of building your own pedals is fantastic, and I love doing it. The cost is not low however.
As an amateur builder using kits at home, I was initially frustrated by your first video, but also I had to consider that there are things that I didn’t know until I started building myself - like bulk-buying component savings etc. I think that this exchange has been handled graciously. Good on you!
I just happened upon Josh's video reply to this. Big respect for you making this video. Josh did a great job responding and this is great to see you taking responsibility
Wow, humility is not dead. Love to see this. Talk about taking the route of harmony rather than starting a potential circle of negativity. This is how you have real open discourse. Great job from you and Josh not spreading negativity, but just being curious to hear the whole story.
Go online and look at any public companies income statement. Especially manufacturing sector. Top of the report will be revenue minus direct costs (materials, direct labor, etc). Then you have your gross profit. But keep doing, then usually indirect costs (sales cost, administrative, rents etc). Profit number is much lower. But you’re not done yet. You haven’t paid taxes, you haven’t paid any interest that most businesses pay on borrowed money. The number at the end of all this is drastically different than the gross profit when you simply subtracted cost of materials and other direct costs.
There is another way to understand the cost to you, our cost is the amount we pay divided by how many years we use it for. If you buy it and use it twice and put it in a closet, it is expensive, if you use it every day for 5 years the cost drops down to nothing.
You posed legitimate questions, and JHS answered them in a civil and informative manner. The result was an enlightening discussion. I think we all learned something from this exchange.
What everyone seems to forget are the actual costs of doing/being in business. To take the cost of components only is incorrect. There are business costs to take into consideration, such as rent, utilities and of course labour/employee costs. There general rule, in Australia anyway, is that if you are making anything less than 30 to 35% gross profit then you’re losing money.
I think your question was still relevant. As consumers, we generally are in the dark regarding product costs, development, distribution and value. With inflation, this has especially been a factor in asking if buying any product is reflecting real aggregate costs to bring it to market or whether manufacturers are taking advantage of it to make more profit. Let's be clear, companies are in the business to make money. They value of what they sell ultimately is what we will buy it for. The whole process is quite sophisticated, complicated, and based on supply and demand. Nonetheless, things are expensive. Perhaps cost of these luxury items for the average person has reached a threshold where, regardless of costs, consumers will not pay the cost. The other issue is the business to business manufacture/shipping cost vs. markup. We see that during Black Friday. Discounts by sellers feeds into this ongoing question of how much markup there is, and do we want to pay it.
....and being a Retailer for a while....the "Mark-up" of goods does NOT take into account the Retailer's cost of doing business, paying employees, insurance, taxes, rents, utilities, equipment, display fixtures, etc. The expenses are MASSIVE!
The thing is, all of the answers to these questions about the cost of manufacturing and running a business is available to the public. It's available online, in your libraries etc. It's free information as well and it's not being held close to keep it secret. I get it, it's quicker, easier to complain in a video ( not just Mr. Cordy) than to actually take an hour and do some research. I'm glad this all worked out and there wasn't a huge drama fest over it. I hope people will reference Josh's video for generations to come and maybe learn a thing or two about just how expensive it is to run a business, especially one that actually manufactures a product.
Kudos to you for taking responsibility for your actions and comments, and most importantly having the humility to admit it could've been handled better. It is encouraging to see two people, especially in today's fast paced world of social media and misinformation, to exercise emotional intelligence and handle an issue as respectful adults.
Josh could have ignored the whole thing since it was just a lot of false assumptions. He responded, explaining the costs of doing business that people who don’t run a business don’t see. We live in a world where people become self appointed experts. From health care to foreign policy to just mowing grass in a park folks make assumptions or decide that they know because they’ve listened to the observations of a content provider or a politician. It’s easy to be an armchair expert. It’s harder to step back, admit that you don’t know what you don’t know and try to fix that using reliable sources.
Fair play to you for apologising dude. I think the public already knows you and Josh are decent and honest people but a big positive to take from all of this is that it highlights both of you as authentic & trust wordy experts in your fields given how it was all handled. Maybe In a "rocky road" kind of way, it has all been very informative and useful in dissolving any previous scepticism about pricing ha ha Gratitude & thanks to you both.
The Boss DD-3 delay pedal cost 170GBP ($213USD) in December of 1987. Adjusted for inflation that's nearly 600GBP($752USD). And that was Boss/Roland, a huge corporation with industrial-scale manufacturing facilities, producing enormous quantities. This new sense of entitlement to rock-bottom prices isn't based in reality. Yes we can get cheap pedals from Chinese manufacturing facilities, but that doesn't mean everything is going to be that cheap. It's no different than furniture -- yes you can get an Ikea or Amazon or Walmart shelf for $50 and it will do the job. Check prices for a Made In USA shelf from a company that pays a living wage to their employees -- it's going to cost more.
Unfortunately, and no offense John, but a lot of guitar players don’t know much about how these businesses operate. It can seem like they’re raking in the money, but the investment needed to create a pedal making business is a ton of money. Remember people, businesses are made to make money. They want to straddle the line between giving the customers a good price and making the most money for themselves. I don’t know why Im blabbering, anyway cheers lol
Fair play John. Most of us know you're a good guy and didn't mean to spread misinformation. Shame loads decided to jump in and bash you for asking the question.
I watch John’s content, I enjoy Dumble tones. I don’t own any JHS pedals or watch Josh’s content on TH-cam. However I totally understand the bashing. The question “Are pedal builders ripping us off?” Is fine, but to go after one small builder like some kind of muckraker armed with misinformation is deserving of pushback.
I love you both. Got to learn from observing both of your perspectives. As a consumer, it makes sense to ask the question, and great to know more about the plights pedal makers go through as well. Anyway, its over, we're all wiser now.
Easily 100 lessons learned between the three videos. I absolutely loved the dialogue and how it was handled by both of you. I know I learned quite a bit from it and I suspect many others have too; the cost of doing business! It’s not easy out there. And indeed consumers are left to make assumptions. These videos have taught more about business than semesters worth of university. And possibly more importantly, how we should treat one another. The world can learn a ton from you both! Thank you both!
The crazier part is right now in america as a small business owner in CT Income tax paid out on profits federal plus state are equal to 42%!! You work so hard to make a dollar and you only get to keep .58 cents from it. This is why so many small businesses are tax evaders, but JHS is a longstanding company obviously pays their taxes. Even if you say 'well hes going to net a million dollars, nah 😂 the government is taking HALF every time. Really important to remember that.
You asked a good question of the industry, perhaps targeted the wrong co, worded it incorrectly, and focused on a US-made pedal that wasn’t too expensive. Maybe Vemuran would’ve been a more appropriate subject. Josh’s reply and your apology are both class.
132k subs. You have some responsibility now. uninformed clickbaiting can have real life consequences. tone down your titles. Maybe next try to get the ceos of mosky, donner, cuvave, and Mr uli B himself how they can make a profit off a great sounding clone of some smaller company. at the price point THEY are selling. If you buy cheapos new, you also have responsibilities for the market you are moving in. if money is an issue buy thos cheapos used 1 time profit is enough for those leeches.
I do like the concept though of you taking pedals apart and asking questions, that’s how I started watching Driftwood Guitars channel, when they started sawing acoustic guitars in half was super interesting to see the build quality
Handled well. The first video was a bit of an overreaction. Josh responded well with transparency, and you responded responsibly as well. Good lesson for us all.
I have a bonsai overdrive, and it's one of my favorite pedals. It definitely feels like it's worth the money to have a well built pedal so close to home
Solid video. Best thing about this is learning and that both you and Josh handled things with class, discussion, and information Vs the back and forth mudslinging that passes as communication these days.
Good stuff! I’m sure it didn’t feel great to see Josh’s response but…at the same time I bet seeing his engagement was validating for the channel as well! You put out good stuff man! Appreciate it!
The questions raised are my questions regarding Everything I have. From the chair I am sitting on to the keyboard, the i-am-99% sure-overpriced-guitar, to the sofa in my living room to my over-engineered toothbrush ¯\_(°°)_/¯ why is everything so expensive?? is it really justified?
Josh and John nailed it. One person believes one thing. The other believes something else. And we have a debate…. Crazy how seeing another point of view and understanding where they are coming from is something we have lost in this world. There are more than just one persons opinion and openly having a conversation or debate on anything for that matter needs to be brought back. Awesome video John. Glad to see you guys not be hateful and share info.
Another thing we are missing is that in order to get the raw Parts at the cost Josh is quoting, you need to buy a huge amount. You can't make this pedal for $60. You can make 10,000 of them at a cost of 600,000 dollars.
I guess another question is: What's wrong with charging a lot for a pedal that does something the builder demonstrates to be unique? Why would charging more than a moderate amount over cost be considered "ripping people off" since people can just choose not to buy it (not like we're talking about bread here). If what the pedal does turns out not to be considered so valuable in the marketplace, it won't sell at the high cost and it will have to be discounted. This is the way most of the world's economy works particularly wrt to brand perceptions, less essential items, luxery oriented items, or goods that have value based in subjective criteria. There is no "rip-off" scenario here that I can see.
The component cost of making a product shouldn't be a factor in consumer ratings or value whatsoever. Things like design, labour, and Development has to be taken into account, plus the company needs to be profitable to survive. Even if a part costs $0.20, the R&D / tooling cost could be $20k+, it's not as simple as saying the part is "worth" 20 cents. The dealer cost for a Fender guitar can be as low as 50% retail price. $1000 Guitar / Dealer Pays $500 - The Material Cost alone has to be less than $100 when you add up everything else including the design team salaries, factory workers salaries, taxes on everything, tooling costs, etc. If they sold you that guitar for $200 the company simply would not exist. Also, retail price shouldn't only be based on those factors. There's many brands out there selling T-Shirts for $1000+.. because there's perceived value in the brand itself, the status of a product, and desirability. Gibson Custom Shop guitars don't *actually* cost 2.5x to make compared to USA models. maybe 1.5x, that extra 1x markup is because of the status, desirability, etc.
Nice job on apologizing. I had noticed and find it interesting that pedal prices - JHS in particular - hadn't gone up. I did not know it had been 15 years. Wow. That is a really big deal for any business, especially in the US with the inflation pressures in recent years. Everyone should also understand that businesses aren't in business just to employee people and sell products or services. The owners are taking risks and spending sleepless nights running the business and are entitled to make a profit. Without profit, the business is not sustainable.
I think your questions on 1st video, were because we are used to cheap chinese manufacture costs and high margins like apple and nvidia practice.. That's was companies normally try to do.. You were not wrong to question.. Maybe the tone was not very good, but it happens. Nice that you made a 2nd video. Regards to you and Josh.
Humility is a sign of maturity and wisdom! Well done and may both of your futures prosper showing others how men can handle disagreements and misunderstandings appropriately!
As players… If we want good gear, we WANT small companies that care to have comfortable margins. That’s how innovation is able to get injected into product lines. If they are on the edge of bankruptcy, you get “safe”. Edit: Great video BTW… I’m not sure if Josh said this, but the quality and robustness of of PCBs has a very wide range, definitely not all created equal.
The civility that the Internet can still offer. Nice one John and Josh.
The original video was not civil. It was accusatory, and entirely amateurish from a biz perspective.
@@RickMcCargar I totally agree, I did not hear civility at all. This is an "Oh sh#t I didn't know what I was talking about when I assumed that JHS was ripping people off" video! Again, did this guy do this (guitar effects pedal maker) rip people off when they gave me a free pedal?
Appreciate this comment, thank you
@@RickMcCargar Totally.What got me was the whole 'My video is sponsored by xxxx, now let me tell you why making money is bad.'
Josh's response was classy, you're being classy in return. This is good, two of my favorite channels/entertainers getting along.
It's too bad JFS fans can't act that way
Boo. He was a dumbass to begin with. No class or character. He only returned it on kind because of Josh' integrity. Hopefully he gains from it.
@@DaveDurangoit's too bad more people don't see things as they were instead of dreaming up your own reality.
classy to me would have just been removing the original video and saying sorry... not pretending to "not know what it actually takes to make a pedal" or to "not expect the roasting he got"... this guy has zero credibility lol
I've never understood the obsession with how much money other people are making. If you paid $150 for a pedal, and the manufacturer made $149 from it, so what? It was obviously worth $150 to you, or you wouldn't have paid it. If you had known the manufacturer's margin before buying it, would it have made a difference? If so, fine, but that just means it's more important for you to somehow punish the maker for making a lot of money than to have the tone you want. If you ask me, JHS should make more profit than they do, but the market obviously disagrees with me on that. Anyway, props to JNC for admitting error and to JHS for educating everyone. Like most people, I'm encouraged by the civility on display here.
Well said. Consumers buy value, not cost plus some arbitrary markup.
If you manage to build something for a $1 that people are willing to pay $500 for, you deserve every bit of that $499.
I mean being a consumer you have to have some way to gauge the value of something aside from it's price or wouldn't you always just buy the most expensive thing you could afford? I understand where he was coming from in the original video in that sense--as trying to figure the value of something based on its components is the most obvious way to try to figure out if you're getting what you're paying for. But obviously there are many many many real world situations where that kind of calculation makes no sense (why does it cost $25 to park during an event? because it's worth it). So I don't really think JNC was being intentionally accusatory except in the somewhat clickbaity title, he just really didn't have any idea what the like inherent value of a pedal is to know what the bang-for-the-buck is. It's a way of thinking.
Everyone should watch Josh’s video if they haven’t seen it.
100%
No
Yep
I really have no desire
John, you handled the situation like a true gentleman. Thank you for being honest and transparent.
Like a morning glory
Wrong. He started by making a ton of faulty assumptions that proved he knows nothing about building a manufacturing business.. He was gracious after being called out, nicely, by Josh.
this is a joke right? please tell me you're joking?... you don't actually think he was being honest and transparent do you?
Now that you and Josh are best friends can you see if JHS will accept your promo code JNC40 to get 40% off his pedals 😂
😂😂😂😂
Lol. Josh was offering to GIVE him pedals. 😅. Turned into kind of a win.
Yes!!!
Too funny! Well done!
🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Both you and Josh handled this well, and no hate is deserved. The lesson is that a video on a topic you don't fully understand is a bad idea.
Or maybe the main lesson should be: If you don't know the first thing about an issue, be very careful about making any assumptions.
Josh handled it well. this guy doesn't know what he is talking about and should just shut up.
I have an additional take. It was all worth it for the content.
@@nickrouse8426 that's actually a good point because it became a learning experience for everyone involved.
That’s the wrong attitude to have, the same way J Cordy was feeling is the same way A LOT of people have been feeling about pedal companies for years and now EVERYONE can see a video J Cordy and Josh Video and have a deeper understanding how the industry works.
I don’t get the hate, this is a win win situation. Pedal manufacturers get to clear up some frustrating misconceptions for them around the business, and consumers get educated on what actually goes into making a pedal and why the prices are what they are. Win-win 👍🏻
Because Josh already said most of that stuff, but this dude skipped around the video or didn't listen the first time.
his video didn't need to be made in the first place. You don't need to own a business to understand basic overhead cost. it cost money and a LOT of time and effort to make all the things we have. all you see is the finished product, and none of the work that went into making it.
@@masterofnone4161 Sadly, not everyone understands how business management works
Its pretty simple. Any builder can charge how much they want about anything, people can buy it or not Its a free world. Dont get the need of explosure people sitting in they rooms need about everything nowadays Just get a cheaper pedal. People dont make videos taking a Ferrari or a Rolex claiming that its a rip off
Another important lesson here is that on the internet or in any media, it’s well known that asking a question like “Are pedal companies ripping us off?” implies an answer in the affirmative. In politics and sensationalist journalism, asking a question can be a sneaky way of putting ideas into people’s heads. I don’t think you were doing that on purpose, but the result was the same. Big respect to you for this video retraction and apology. As Josh said, both of you have educated us on this subject, as well as demonstrating civility that is so rare on the internet. Thank you for your educational channel, your fantastic playing, and your example of handling this conversation so graciously. ☮️☮️
That's a very important lesson in life people need to learn more. The news is so horrible about stuff like this.
I'd love to see you fly out to JHS and put a pedal together and Josh talk you through why, how and the idea behind the pedal you could build, if such a thing was possible...
Potential pedal name: The cost + ripper
this is a perfect idea. They could shoot a bunch of videos over a couple of days
This is a video I'd love to see. Especially given John's demonstrated comfort with both the digital and analog world and could speak well to some of the pros and cons of digital/modeling/etc. and where he sees that space while also speaking to his obvious affinity for real amps and analog pedals. The icing on the cake would be taking an existing JHS Pedal and making a limited run with some branding/word play on this TH-cam video exchange they just had in front of us all. Add a mode switch called Civility.
humble pie for the holidays - pass it around. Josh is an absolute legend and deserves this apology.
TH-camrs are allowed to be normal people. John basically said things I’ve heard from guitar players for years.
He publicly trashed a small American company to his audience of 120,000 people. That is different that you telling your close friends.
@ dramatic.
@@tennisnutts7370 omg he did not lol
Josh's tone shifted when you called yourself a knob in your Crimson video
Everyone always forgets the costs of doing business. Little things like tools, insurance, rent/mortgage, taxes, employee wages, their taxes, their health insurance, electricity, water, gas, sewer, trash, and lots of little things that add to the costs of doing business. Now think that doubling the cost of producing an item will cover everything? Not on your life. That’s why things cost what they cost. This country got stuck onto cheap stuff at the beginning of globalization and cheap labor and Walmart, EBay prices and can’t escape it. That’s why we can’t understand how prices go up and why. Now you know pass it on. ThanksJosh.
This this and this. What's a man's time worth to make a new product line in the first place? It's worth a lot, especially if you own the business. You do that because you're passionate about what you do, not because you want to rip people off. Listening to some young guy with no experience claim that so-and-so is ripping them off is infuriating. Anyone who's started a business has had to spend money and time on things they never imagined, has had get 34 different stupid permits for things that don't matter, has had to secure 5 different kinds of insurance, has had to suck up to venture capitalists to secure funding ... let's not even start with taxes ... ooooh did we mention that today, you'll sweat unforeseeable increases in overhead costs because of a new shipping tariff in Cairo? And your roof is leaking. It never ends.
Nah, Cordy just invested in a Camera and a microphone. That's all a business is, right?
I subscribe to you and JHS. Speaking purely from an engineers background, I have to admit that I was a bit annoyed by your video. I then watched Josh's response and have to say that he was very gentlemanly.
I think this video is brilliant and I appreciate everything you've said. Well done sir.
Personally, I think this whole situation has been very positive due to the maturity of the people involved. Unlike many of the comments.
Some of the haters are honestly telling me that they don't see a nice new piece of gear on the odd occasion that interests them and then think jesus, no way would I pay that, what a ridiculous price.
I know I do regularly of late.
The fact that Josh is so willingly transparent is commendable, he has just done the pedal industry as a whole a huge favour with his explanation.
A consumer will ultimately pay what they can afford if they really want something, or buy a knock off version which satisfies their yourning.
Anyone here know a typical consumer who fully researches B2B and B2C before buying? I don't.
John is clearly a well meaning guy, I think picking up on a specific brand was probably the big mistake but TBF Josh had done the Ross video which I think sparked the questions initially.
Really enjoy both channels and will continue to do so.
I just don't get it. John, in the interest of his audience, publicly raised a question on the actual costs of manufacturing of the products. There is a lot of paid content, lots of TH-camrs get paid for the "reviews", a lot of shilling is going on and a lot of companies are selling way overpriced stuff because, of course, there are magic germanium diodes inside, and when a guy is doing something out of good will, he gets a lot of backlash from butthurt fanboys "I'm unsubsribing, bla bla, misinformation, bla bla". This is not CNN but an opinion channel and there is no requirement for John to spend his time doing complex research on supply chains and whatnot. In return, you got an official response from the company and you gained some knowledge how this business operates. You win as a consumer.
Good on you for being honest and not ashamed to admit when you make a mistake, because brother, we ALL do
maybe be less clickbaity and you won't need a 17 min apology video.
But did you click on the video because of the click bait title? Be honest.
no, i saw a few min of JHS response, enough to get the point and this vid showed up in sidebar and I watched enough of this to get the point as well. I doubt I would have clicked a vid that seemed to imply that American pedal companies are ripping everyone off, cause that is silly.
I agree with you, but that's less content. Now he's got two videos with engagement and a free pedal on the way.
The Internet has made us all experts who don't know what they're talking about once we have to talk to an expert from the real world.
Nice apology. If you´ve ever tried to run a business you´d know how you price your products depending on the price it costs to make it, the market price, the demand for it and the cost of your whole opertation. Josh was really kind and didactic in his video, so you´ve learned a lot and so the rest of us.
I haven't seen a backpedal that smooth since Michael Jackson's Moonwalk.
Something else that is never considered is that you're also paying for tge R&D for every FAILED design that never makes it to market.
Cheers form Nashville. Great job receiving negative feedback and then responding the way you did, John! We've all been there.
Fair play on this one, John. Much respect to anyone who puts their hand up when they get it wrong. Fair play to Josh too, for being very gentlemanly. Not everything on the interwebs is toxic.
Owning up to your mistakes is important. Josh didn't need to respond to your prior video, but he was compelled to and educated all of us on what it takes to run a US based oedal company.
I appreciate that you owned up that you were initially misinformed. I rarely buy new unless it's a great deal, otherwise I stick with buying gently or barely used gear.
You asked a fair question, Josh replied in an informative way. I’m sure we all learnt something. End of, as I see it - I don’t get why so many haters started coming for you, maybe this video will help them to feel better
Because he didn't ask a fair question. There was a whole lot of false assumptions that painted jhs in a bad light.
He asked a fair question, with a bit of sarcasm.....let's be honest.....he did not get his facts straight, instead was more concerned about hitting his mark of putting out 3 to 5videos per day....if you are on a platform you are responsible for your comments.....
@@gmcsilverado4183 he asked ‘are pedal companies ripping us off’. Fair question as I see it. Gear has gotten expensive, we’re now seeing $1000 pedals. I know that’s not JHS but whatever. The whole thing from John seemed light hearted to me. He even jokingly pulled the pedal to bits and called himself a knob. It’s not this serious man, no need for the drama.
@@NickGranville Shhh - that kind of rationality doesn't feed the mob
@@gmcsilverado4183 his video was rhetorical. Watch it again.
This is how real men with integrity handle their business. I have made respect for both of you. Subscribe to you both for years now. Fantastic job bro...now we need the JNC DRIVE DELAY REVERB FROM JHS!!😊
yes!!!
The Back Pedal.
TBH, I'm amazed that any small company can keep going in today's music gear marketplace. It's pretty cutthroat, especially with knockoff experts in the far east breathing down their necks and cloning anything successful. Look how the music shops have nearly all disappeared in the face of competition from online dealers. Hats off to the dedication and enthusiasm of these mad scientists that keep pushing, innovating, refining - all so we can sound better.
I feel the average guitar consumer is lacking in a basic understanding of business economics. In general, they shouldn’t be critical of a product’s pricing until they’ve tried running a business. And even then, one basic premise of economics is that if the market thinks something is overpriced, people won’t buy it. So if you don’t want it, just don’t buy it. Who cares if you think others are getting gouged, that’s their problem, a business isn’t being predatory unless they are overly lying about something in the process of selling you an item.
Edit: I should clarify that it’s okay to have an opinion. That opinion will just be sort of useless (in MY opinion) if it centers on “I don’t like the profit margin this company is making.” That’s just business. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
Love this channel and will continue to watch, however, I think an overriding point is still missed in this little hubbub: If titles like: "is so-and-so ripping us off?" are released by sources with significantly sized audiences, then the seeds of that possibility are planted in many minds, and a certain number of those minds will tend to consider it true until unproven, even if no credible proof of it is presented in the first place. Once this effect takes hold, it may be hard to undo. So "Poorly worded" could be an understatement - "100% verify your proof before posing such "questions" to an attentive audience" would seem more applicable. Is the concept of how this works really a mystery to so many? Words are powerful (+to quote JHS: "words is hard")
Anyway, keep up the great work on this channel - great content here.
Now let’s have a JNC and JHS live stream interview. 🙌🤘
no. i dont want to see a reward for that much of a fuckup come out of this for him. He should be ashamed and learn from that not take it as an opportunity to broaden his channel.viewerbase.
1) these are luxury goods. If you find them expensive then there are always alternatives that compete. 2) if you want to support living wages for employees and keep a business open then we have to be willing to pay the cost for the item we want. 3) Competition keeps the pricing in check and if they can maximize their profits in the process, that’s just good business.
You also have to remember that buying in the UK inport duty has to be paid (and that is also applied to the shipping) plus the additional 20% VAT which makes things a lot worse (as retailers pass all the costs for dealing with such things on to the customer)
I discovered the costs when i built my own big muff varient that a load if friends liked and wanted, nobody would have wanted to pay for the time and work.
Its really hard to understand where the costs come from till you try to build something.
Well done for addressing the misunderstanding
As an American, I must say there is a cultural difference. I know John's apology is forthright and sincere, but, the British have a way of making everything sound a little cheeky, and we forgive you most of the time. Thank you JNC for making the attempt to right what was definitely at least "bad form" as you Brits say.
Fair play to both you guys for handling this situation in a mature manner. 💙💙
For reference, I used to design the physical parts of electronic gadgets for a big company. We had relatively low volumes (numbers of units to make). We found that the prices did not get significantly better until we could order 10,000 units of an item per year. Below that number (per SKU), costs did not come down. This was for electronic devices made and assembled in the USA. If your product line has 25 different devices, you'd need to order 10K for each of them to get really good costs. You can do the math. Josh is almost certainly paying twice what a high volume manufacturer would be paying, especially for off-shore.
Very helpful to have this info-thanks!
It’s all the hidden cost that people who have never ran a business don’t see. And remember people like Josh won’t work an 8 hour day , they will be working even when asleep. Kudos to you mate for this video. I can fully understand what you are saying about the high end pedals. But then again a banana gaffa taped to a wall just sold for 5mil so wtf do we know
Josh is now building a new transparent overdrive called the JNC for $79. Limited supply.
It should be called "The Ripoff"
Grace. Humility. Love it. Thank you.
All good. I looked at it as a question from you and the experts gave their answer. Your question is a question that many have that just don’t know
In all honesty, part of the problems seems to be the volume of Videos you put out and the lack of research and thought behind it.
Thanks John, for making this video. We are all nob heads asking questions and you making a follow up video like this shows you are an honest broker. I think JHS really put his soul in trying to resurrect the Ross brand and so your video gave him a chance to do public therapy.
Great. This is what open honest dialogue looks like. Bravo to both Gents.
As you said, we as consumers don't know...and most companies are not going to share the details as freely as JHS...so you posed as reasonable question and Josh responded... manufacturing in the US IS ridiculously high however,with a lot of companies opting to send manufacturing overseas (to China, Indonesia, Vietnam and so on)which does massively increase profits ...but as you said we had no way of knowing.
I actually happy you brought up these questions cause to be honest I had these thoughts myself and thanks to you and Josh’s honesty and dignity it helped me understand better the real full story behind these things. You actually raised up I think every consumer’s assumptions and helped out clearing this off.
Thank you for that and for all the videos you’re making.
While manufacturing, transportation, distribution and retail markup have lots of unknowns, I think that it's still ok to ask why Fender can make an entire modeling amp complete with cabinet and speaker for close to or less than their pedalboard amp. In other words, critical awareness and logic can still let us ask sometimes what gives?
Well done for posting this. You're right, Josh was very gracious in his reply. I took your original video as a genuine question, not an accusation, and we've all benefited from the resulting discussion with a better understanding of how the market works. 👍
10,000 units is fairly standard point to gain advantage of wholesale/bulk pricing.
Custom designs may not even have a price reduction at that scale.
Staff, equipment, building, transport, advertising, taxes, r&d, there are so many costs all over the place
I don’t think that is why people question price. It’s the cheap Chinese pedals, which some are great. Josh explains almost half the margin is going to the stores. That means a $99 pedal is really a $50 pedal. That brings jhs and china much closer.
Is a clone of a clone worth those expenses? No.
@@BOSSenjoyer Different companies have different costs and don't you remember how cheap Chinese labour has been in comparison with American Labour,,,if you want a cheap clone, get it but if you want the quality you get from American or UK Companies then there are hidden costs in running those companies as well as the standards for the high quality components, in those cases where they are higher quality......demonfx do a great quality KOT but it won't be quite the same and the costs involved in creating it will be entirely different to the Chinese knockoff or wherever it comes from...this is all clear I won't comment further
@@ValBoschi-ix9cd That's not worth $190 to me for a clone of a two knob compressor, and everyone else obviously. An original only costs that much because of collector value, not musician value.
Being an good guitar player and "youtube famous" doesn't make anyone an expert in anything else. Great lesson. Should have started with questions instead of assumptions. I built a 3500 employee IC design/mfg co with facilities in U.S., Europe and Asia. When I saw your video, the points made were so entirely off the mark that it was laughable. People get a bit of fame, and it goes to their head. Josh did a great job explaining the many ways you had no idea what you were talking about...while being gracious.
This. Josh was super gracious.
He almost got away with it.
a beautiful mature response on both your behalves! really admirable and a great example to follow!
This is fascinating. The Curse of Knowledge vs The Dunning-Kruger Effect.
On one hand, business owners know so much about the cost of doing business and how systems work that its harder to remember a time when you had no business side knowledge at all, from the consumer perspective, aka The Curse of Knowledge.
On the other hand, the less you know about something the more you think you understand because you lack the necessary knowledge you would need to know what you're missing.
As Steven Fry once said, "You have to be pretty smart to know how dumb you are."
This back-and-forth pits two classic cognitive biases against each other, but in a super respectful give and take that was refreshing to watch.
To give a reasonably good example of base costs… A Morning Glory clone kit from a UK based company that I use regularly is £48.60 + postage. That includes the PCB, all parts, a Gorva (decent quality) footswitch and a Hammond enclosure (industry standard) You then have to build it yourself. Factor in your own time, electricity, soldering equipment and accessories… There ain’t much in it! The satisfaction of building your own pedals is fantastic, and I love doing it. The cost is not low however.
As an amateur builder using kits at home, I was initially frustrated by your first video, but also I had to consider that there are things that I didn’t know until I started building myself - like bulk-buying component savings etc. I think that this exchange has been handled graciously. Good on you!
I just happened upon Josh's video reply to this. Big respect for you making this video. Josh did a great job responding and this is great to see you taking responsibility
Wow, humility is not dead. Love to see this. Talk about taking the route of harmony rather than starting a potential circle of negativity. This is how you have real open discourse. Great job from you and Josh not spreading negativity, but just being curious to hear the whole story.
Go online and look at any public companies income statement. Especially manufacturing sector. Top of the report will be revenue minus direct costs (materials, direct labor, etc). Then you have your gross profit. But keep doing, then usually indirect costs (sales cost, administrative, rents etc). Profit number is much lower. But you’re not done yet. You haven’t paid taxes, you haven’t paid any interest that most businesses pay on borrowed money. The number at the end of all this is drastically different than the gross profit when you simply subtracted cost of materials and other direct costs.
And also, love both Josh and JNC response. Both acted like adults and listened to each other. Respect to you both and what a great example.
Glad you both handled this like adults and not getting caught in a bunch of drama.
Coming soon: The JHS John Cordy signature pedal
This is the most wholesome TH-cam “drama” in history lol love both channels!
Congrats for this and thank you for this opportunity. We have all learnt from it.
There is another way to understand the cost to you, our cost is the amount we pay divided by how many years we use it for. If you buy it and use it twice and put it in a closet, it is expensive, if you use it every day for 5 years the cost drops down to nothing.
You posed legitimate questions, and JHS answered them in a civil and informative manner. The result was an enlightening discussion. I think we all learned something from this exchange.
no he didnt, he didnt pose legitimate questions. He made assumptions and then attacked.
What everyone seems to forget are the actual costs of doing/being in business. To take the cost of components only is incorrect. There are business costs to take into consideration, such as rent, utilities and of course labour/employee costs. There general rule, in Australia anyway, is that if you are making anything less than 30 to 35% gross profit then you’re losing money.
This is the most polite TH-cam beef of all time 🥩
I think your question was still relevant. As consumers, we generally are in the dark regarding product costs, development, distribution and value. With inflation, this has especially been a factor in asking if buying any product is reflecting real aggregate costs to bring it to market or whether manufacturers are taking advantage of it to make more profit. Let's be clear, companies are in the business to make money. They value of what they sell ultimately is what we will buy it for. The whole process is quite sophisticated, complicated, and based on supply and demand. Nonetheless, things are expensive. Perhaps cost of these luxury items for the average person has reached a threshold where, regardless of costs, consumers will not pay the cost. The other issue is the business to business manufacture/shipping cost vs. markup. We see that during Black Friday. Discounts by sellers feeds into this ongoing question of how much markup there is, and do we want to pay it.
Seems like you’ve UnWankered yourself here man. Kudos. 🤘🏼
Love the reaction from both sides, you are setting example here how real man handle being wrong. Mutual respect is key. Cheers
....and being a Retailer for a while....the "Mark-up" of goods does NOT take into account the Retailer's cost of doing business, paying employees, insurance, taxes, rents, utilities, equipment, display fixtures, etc. The expenses are MASSIVE!
The thing is, all of the answers to these questions about the cost of manufacturing and running a business is available to the public. It's available online, in your libraries etc. It's free information as well and it's not being held close to keep it secret. I get it, it's quicker, easier to complain in a video ( not just Mr. Cordy) than to actually take an hour and do some research. I'm glad this all worked out and there wasn't a huge drama fest over it. I hope people will reference Josh's video for generations to come and maybe learn a thing or two about just how expensive it is to run a business, especially one that actually manufactures a product.
Kudos to you for taking responsibility for your actions and comments, and most importantly having the humility to admit it could've been handled better. It is encouraging to see two people, especially in today's fast paced world of social media and misinformation, to exercise emotional intelligence and handle an issue as respectful adults.
Josh could have ignored the whole thing since it was just a lot of false assumptions. He responded, explaining the costs of doing business that people who don’t run a business don’t see. We live in a world where people become self appointed experts. From health care to foreign policy to just mowing grass in a park folks make assumptions or decide that they know because they’ve listened to the observations of a content provider or a politician. It’s easy to be an armchair expert. It’s harder to step back, admit that you don’t know what you don’t know and try to fix that using reliable sources.
Fair play to you for apologising dude. I think the public already knows you and Josh are decent and honest people but a big positive to take from all of this is that it highlights both of you as authentic & trust wordy experts in your fields given how it was all handled. Maybe In a "rocky road" kind of way, it has all been very informative and useful in dissolving any previous scepticism about pricing ha ha Gratitude & thanks to you both.
The Boss DD-3 delay pedal cost 170GBP ($213USD) in December of 1987. Adjusted for inflation that's nearly 600GBP($752USD). And that was Boss/Roland, a huge corporation with industrial-scale manufacturing facilities, producing enormous quantities. This new sense of entitlement to rock-bottom prices isn't based in reality. Yes we can get cheap pedals from Chinese manufacturing facilities, but that doesn't mean everything is going to be that cheap. It's no different than furniture -- yes you can get an Ikea or Amazon or Walmart shelf for $50 and it will do the job. Check prices for a Made In USA shelf from a company that pays a living wage to their employees -- it's going to cost more.
Unfortunately, and no offense John, but a lot of guitar players don’t know much about how these businesses operate. It can seem like they’re raking in the money, but the investment needed to create a pedal making business is a ton of money. Remember people, businesses are made to make money. They want to straddle the line between giving the customers a good price and making the most money for themselves. I don’t know why Im blabbering, anyway cheers lol
Fair play John. Most of us know you're a good guy and didn't mean to spread misinformation. Shame loads decided to jump in and bash you for asking the question.
I watch John’s content, I enjoy Dumble tones. I don’t own any JHS pedals or watch Josh’s content on TH-cam. However I totally understand the bashing. The question “Are pedal builders ripping us off?” Is fine, but to go after one small builder like some kind of muckraker armed with misinformation is deserving of pushback.
I love you both. Got to learn from observing both of your perspectives. As a consumer, it makes sense to ask the question, and great to know more about the plights pedal makers go through as well. Anyway, its over, we're all wiser now.
Easily 100 lessons learned between the three videos. I absolutely loved the dialogue and how it was handled by both of you. I know I learned quite a bit from it and I suspect many others have too; the cost of doing business! It’s not easy out there. And indeed consumers are left to make assumptions. These videos have taught more about business than semesters worth of university. And possibly more importantly, how we should treat one another.
The world can learn a ton from you both! Thank you both!
The crazier part is right now in america as a small business owner in CT Income tax paid out on profits federal plus state are equal to 42%!! You work so hard to make a dollar and you only get to keep .58 cents from it. This is why so many small businesses are tax evaders, but JHS is a longstanding company obviously pays their taxes. Even if you say 'well hes going to net a million dollars, nah 😂 the government is taking HALF every time. Really important to remember that.
You asked a good question of the industry, perhaps targeted the wrong co, worded it incorrectly, and focused on a US-made pedal that wasn’t too expensive. Maybe Vemuran would’ve been a more appropriate subject. Josh’s reply and your apology are both class.
132k subs. You have some responsibility now. uninformed clickbaiting can have real life consequences. tone down your titles. Maybe next try to get the ceos of mosky, donner, cuvave, and Mr uli B himself how they can make a profit off a great sounding clone of some smaller company. at the price point THEY are selling. If you buy cheapos new, you also have responsibilities for the market you are moving in. if money is an issue buy thos cheapos used 1 time profit is enough for those leeches.
I do like the concept though of you taking pedals apart and asking questions, that’s how I started watching Driftwood Guitars channel, when they started sawing acoustic guitars in half was super interesting to see the build quality
Handled well. The first video was a bit of an overreaction. Josh responded well with transparency, and you responded responsibly as well. Good lesson for us all.
I have a bonsai overdrive, and it's one of my favorite pedals. It definitely feels like it's worth the money to have a well built pedal so close to home
This may have been an 'awkward moment' for Josh and John, but it was TH-cam Gold for us! 🤪
Definitely informative.
Solid video. Best thing about this is learning and that both you and Josh handled things with class, discussion, and information Vs the back and forth mudslinging that passes as communication these days.
Good stuff! I’m sure it didn’t feel great to see Josh’s response but…at the same time I bet seeing his engagement was validating for the channel as well! You put out good stuff man! Appreciate it!
The questions raised are my questions regarding Everything I have. From the chair I am sitting on to the keyboard, the i-am-99% sure-overpriced-guitar, to the sofa in my living room to my over-engineered toothbrush ¯\_(°°)_/¯ why is everything so expensive?? is it really justified?
Josh and John nailed it. One person believes one thing. The other believes something else. And we have a debate…. Crazy how seeing another point of view and understanding where they are coming from is something we have lost in this world.
There are more than just one persons opinion and openly having a conversation or debate on anything for that matter needs to be brought back.
Awesome video John. Glad to see you guys not be hateful and share info.
Another thing we are missing is that in order to get the raw Parts at the cost Josh is quoting, you need to buy a huge amount. You can't make this pedal for $60. You can make 10,000 of them at a cost of 600,000 dollars.
I guess another question is: What's wrong with charging a lot for a pedal that does something the builder demonstrates to be unique? Why would charging more than a moderate amount over cost be considered "ripping people off" since people can just choose not to buy it (not like we're talking about bread here). If what the pedal does turns out not to be considered so valuable in the marketplace, it won't sell at the high cost and it will have to be discounted. This is the way most of the world's economy works particularly wrt to brand perceptions, less essential items, luxery oriented items, or goods that have value based in subjective criteria. There is no "rip-off" scenario here that I can see.
It is called slander and he almost got away with it.
The component cost of making a product shouldn't be a factor in consumer ratings or value whatsoever. Things like design, labour, and Development has to be taken into account, plus the company needs to be profitable to survive. Even if a part costs $0.20, the R&D / tooling cost could be $20k+, it's not as simple as saying the part is "worth" 20 cents.
The dealer cost for a Fender guitar can be as low as 50% retail price. $1000 Guitar / Dealer Pays $500 - The Material Cost alone has to be less than $100 when you add up everything else including the design team salaries, factory workers salaries, taxes on everything, tooling costs, etc. If they sold you that guitar for $200 the company simply would not exist.
Also, retail price shouldn't only be based on those factors. There's many brands out there selling T-Shirts for $1000+.. because there's perceived value in the brand itself, the status of a product, and desirability. Gibson Custom Shop guitars don't *actually* cost 2.5x to make compared to USA models. maybe 1.5x, that extra 1x markup is because of the status, desirability, etc.
Move forward.
We learnt together.
This is a great discussion.
Everybody gain more knowledge.
Nice job on apologizing. I had noticed and find it interesting that pedal prices - JHS in particular - hadn't gone up. I did not know it had been 15 years. Wow. That is a really big deal for any business, especially in the US with the inflation pressures in recent years. Everyone should also understand that businesses aren't in business just to employee people and sell products or services. The owners are taking risks and spending sleepless nights running the business and are entitled to make a profit. Without profit, the business is not sustainable.
I think your questions on 1st video, were because we are used to cheap chinese manufacture costs and high margins like apple and nvidia practice.. That's was companies normally try to do.. You were not wrong to question.. Maybe the tone was not very good, but it happens. Nice that you made a 2nd video. Regards to you and Josh.
Good on you. Nice to see examples of TH-camrs being human.
This is an excellent response - you're a scholar and a gentleman, Mr. Cordy.
Thanks to you for raising it and well balanced. You and Josh are both good guys!
Humility is a sign of maturity and wisdom! Well done and may both of your futures prosper showing others how men can handle disagreements and misunderstandings appropriately!
As players… If we want good gear, we WANT small companies that care to have comfortable margins. That’s how innovation is able to get injected into product lines. If they are on the edge of bankruptcy, you get “safe”.
Edit: Great video BTW…
I’m not sure if Josh said this, but the quality and robustness of of PCBs has a very wide range, definitely not all created equal.