I would really like to hear Ryan and Ron Spomer talk about cartridges. This is the level-headed, experienced, and informed type of discussion we all need. All the while, entertaining.
@Vortex Nation Mark B. is definitely the unsung hero of the podcast. He's like your buddy who always has extra ear and eye pro for whoever forgets. He keeps the wheels on the train turning.
If cheap is yer criteria, then 22lr is king lol. 6.5 destroys 308 at any real range, if you never take shots past 200 then yea 308 all day but 500+ 6.5 is another league, 308 might as well be flintlock.
I went with .308 because I wanted a 20-inch barrel. On an old podcast, Ryan recommended starting with the bullet you want to hunt with and develop a load for it. I agree with you both that the right bullet for the job and practice is far more important than what cal. you use. Great info, guys!
Been looking hard at 6.5cm for awhile and the other new cartridges for a new rifle, and it does seem like the conversation should REALLY be about bullets for sure!
Good point on the reloaded 7x57. The original 7x57 pressure was 50,307 CUP in the supposedly relatively weak model 93 action. Although according to some that there is no really accurate formula for converting CUP to PSI, using one of the supposed most accurate formulas that translates to 58,458 PSI. In plenty strong actions like my Kar. 98, which is really a medium length action, you can take full advantage of the 7x57's larger case capacity over the 7mm-08. You can get the 7x57 pretty close to 270 Winchester performance with careful hand loads. The same can be said for the 6.5x55 vs the 6.5 Creedmoor. I've got all the cartridge/calibers listed herein and a lot more except the 6.5 Creedmoor. Over the last 50 years I've harvested more deer with my Ruger M77 270 Winchester than anything else. All the rest are just for occasional variety. If I had to get rid of all but one and couldn't hand load I'd stick with the 308 Winchester. Widest selection of bullet weights, common cup and core bullets or premium varieties from many manufacturers priced accordingly and availability. Except for the availability and price issues I'd pick the 7mm-08. Flat shooting, less recoil than the 308. Plenty of inexpensive, synthetic stocked rifles that I hate to admit are amazingly accurate. I'm old and traditional like the cartridge and rifle combinations I like. Happy hunting boys and girls!😊
The reloading manuals state that there are two different factory loadings for the Swede in Europe. Because modern arms are able to tolerate higher pressures, but there are still old rifles around. All the big deal about that Creedmore disappears once you know that. Practicing is difficult when you cannot afford it because of the price. It's all academic when you live and hunt where a three hundred yard shot is exceedingly rare. Act accordingly to your own situation
Just get both imo. I agree with you entirely btw. But there’s nothing wrong with having and being proficient in both, and I think that should be everyone’s goal
@@traceyevans2757except that’s a 2nd gun 2nd ammo type. And you’re not really gaining much other than more available ammo types. So maybe just go 308 and who cares that it drops a little less and drifts a little more. If you’re dialing and holding for wind. It’s not like you’re making pop shots. It’s not sub 300 blk vs 55g 223 at distance. What difference does it make if you hold 2 mils or 3 mils for wind when you know what you’re holding for your round anyway. So I see why and don’t disagree with both. But with the caveat you’re adding a rifle and cartridge to your arsenal that might be space and capability better used elsewhere. If someone has a 6.5 but no shot gun. Maybe get a 12g instead of a 308. Know what I mean? 9mm, 556, 308/-06/.270/6.5creed/7remmag pick one, 12g. After those 4. Get whatever you want. But I’d say have those 4 first. You can concealed carry fight hunt and survive. After that double down with another bolt gun maybe a magnum, another pistol maybe 45 or 10mm or 357, maybe have a little 22 lr. Build out capabilities. Not collectables.
Another great podcast. Thanks guys. I've got a 6.5, but not a .308. I've been a 30-06 guy, more than a .308 forever, and the 30-06 has always been considered a .308 magnum to me. This podcast has opened my eyes a bit more on the .308.
@@texpatriot8462you can literally handload 308 to match 3006 up until like 200 grain bullet weights, then the 3006s greater case capacity has the advantage.
@@chanoleyva8584there is no situation where a .308 can match a 30-06 loaded to equal pressures. It simply has more room for powder. If you said it’s an irrelevant difference at the lighter bullet weights, I’d agree with that.
A bullet tailored to application can help so much. Not just the cartridge but also the intended game. I look forward to the results of the extensive testing 😅
Even for a few years after the 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced I kept seeing articles along the lines of "The Unpopular 6.5'". It took several years for the Creedmoor to get popular for hunting.. It started out as a 1000yard competition cartridge. It was its long range accuracy with inexpensive rifles that got people's attention at first. The 260, although sometimes used in competition, was really thought of as more of a youth and ladies hunting cartridge. Kinda a lesser version of a 308.
Swedes been winning matches and shooting moose with it for over a century try telling them it's a ladies cartridge. Creedmoor is nothing new just fits in a short action and Remington botched 260 just like they did 244 wrong twist
@@paulknopp5694 No one has implied the 6.5x55 was considered a women's cartridge. 6.5's just were not popular in the US until the mid 2010's. Not many seemed to know about the 6.5x55 in the 1960's when I was growing up. Many DID know that the Japanese used a 6.5 in WWII and generally disparaged the cartridge in comparison to the 30-06. The twist on the 260 Rem is OK for 140 grain bullets, so that wasn't really the problem. Being a necked-down 308 meant that it was limited to bullets with a relatively short ogive, at least in a short action. It was mainly considered a low-recoil variant of the 308. A half-step up from a 243 and best for the slight of frame or recoil sensitive. A perfect example is that the outdoors writer Ron Spomer prefers hunting cartridges more powerful than the 308 whereas his wife shoots a 260.
Sorry I misunderstood I'm not trying to cause a fight. I'm very happy that the 65 caliber has become so popular of late because there's a lot better bullet selection than there ever was
Both of these cartridges hold 40-45 gr of powder(potential energy) and have a wide variety of projectiles available. It should be no surprise that they share a lot of performance overlap and are basically interchangeable.
@@simonharris4801 be happy with your 308. The real advantage of the creed in my book is the factory ammo. If you compare say 168 gold medal match to 140 hornady match the 6.5 creedmoor is way better probably once you get beyond 600-700 yards. If you start hand loading the performance gap will shrink a lot. You can get a way better bullet and probably pick up 100-150 ft/sec and then the only real disadvantage to the 308 is recoil and that isn’t a big deal unless you are on a timed event.
The best way I've found to look at these two rounds is. I prefer 308 300yards and in. And 6.5 for all applications past 300. That's ware the creed shines. The 308 beats it for hunting in every way inside 300. The 6.5 beats 308 in every way past 300. That sums it up in a fast way I think 🤔
The 6.5 does not beat the 308 past 300 in retained energy. Honestly not a huge difference in drop and drift either. If you are seeing the 308 fall off at 300 yards significantly you need a different bullet
@@K-bob_45 Exactly, even 6.5 grendel will be able to hit just as far but without that extra oomph. These wildcats are usually designed for long range shooting in design instead of a mixture of lethality and range.
@@K-bob_45 yes 300 is ware the 6.5 and 308 meet and the 6.5 is better accurate and better energy past 300 idk what planet ur on but that's ware the 6.5 pulls ahead. It's facts not opinion
I would like to hear Ryan talk differences between .243, 6 creed, and 6.5 creed. I have always loved my little .243 for dusting yote's and then loading some 90gr barnes for blackbear and deer size game.
23:16 That list for the 'new shooter' Exactly what I was considering, in watching your 270 vs 30-06 comparison earlier today. Excellent presentation. Thank you.
I went down the 6.5 cm road a few years ago after decades with the 308. I built an AR-10 Frankenrifle with a carbon fiber barrel and just loved the accuracy. But I built it to hunt and clearly the rifle was unwieldy pig. After a couple years in the field with handloads I was not all that impressed. Within “normal” hunting ranges, under 350 yards, the 308 has better terminal ballistics. Bigger holes and more blood on the ground makes for easy tracking when called for. I don’t miss the 6.5 at all. For longer ranges I have a stupid accurate 7mag with a brake so recoil is no issue.
Frontal area is a very legitimate factor. I love the Swede and feel that it is very capable but as you know the smaller bores are more sensitive to bullet choice, get to the .308 and larger and the average bullet is simply more effective….It becomes a much bigger deal when we get into big bodied deer and larger critters.
Ryan: "Yes"! More conversation / comparison like this Podcast please! and please try to make a Podcast with Ron Spomer and Ryan! Thanks! Regards from Switzerland.
Bruh the 6.5 need more cant even kill a whitetail less than 300 yards. Too many horror storys that is a target round not a hunting round. Too many fanboys tried to push that round and hype it up, now so many people are losing deer. And no i dont own a .308, i roll with the king of cartridges 7mm rem mag. I back it up with .30-06 springfield.
@kylecomeaux7880 That is an objectively ridiculous statement, considering that 243 Win (a less powerful cartridge) has decades of success against whitetails and that the European continent has seen over a century of very successfully hunting moose and stag with 6.5x55 Swede (which is functionally identical to 6.5CM). Your statements sound more like the result of 6.5CM being the default cartridge of new hunters over the last decade, and too many new hunters don't know what the heck they're doing.
find the 6.5 cheaper then 308 here in canada were I am. last trip to the store the prices were 6.5 creedmore $33.99 a box 308 $41.99 a box both were winchester power points.
@@outdoorsythings2573 That can certainly be the case. I only give 308 the budget conscious nob because there's much, much more low-end (read: poor quality) ammo available, and if you're on a really strict budget, that might be the difference between shooting and not (especially for training. It's all well and good to fork out for a box of Precision Hunter for the actual hunt, but that's expensive ammo to practice with). If you reload or stick to decent/good factory ammo, then that point is totally irrelevant.
Where I live in Georgia 308 win is the number 1 most available ammo with different options then 30-06 and 6.5 cm are fighting for 2nd but I've never shot anything with a 308 or 6.5cm but the fun thing about cartridges is that they all work lol
Wait.. speed? If you mean Velocity, my .308 runs 168gr ELD-M at ~2750fps, which is pretty much what I'd expect a 6.5 Creed to do with a 143gr. Although, personally I'd choose either one if I had both, based on what I have ammo for and which rifle I prefer shooting.
@@travismckenney407 okay, now I have to wonder - how is a chronograph going to tell you the speed at 300? Of course - use a ballistic calculator to calculate it using the BC off the same box that told you the velocity, which is also prone to being wrong (sometimes right, sometimes wrong - just like the velocity. BC changes as well). So what's the point of buying a chronograph for this, just look at a calculator. I've checked both Hornady and Nosler Ammo. The Creed generally starts a little behind, but not by much and at 300 it's closed the gap to be within 100fps almost every time (except one Hornady Match load where it's ahead - 6.5 147gr ELD-M at 2695fps vs .308 168gr ELD-M at 2700fps). But that is only if you're comparing 140gr vs 165gr. If you go to 130gr for the 6.5 or 180gr for the .308, the BCs are generally more similar and the Velocities shift more in the Creeds favour (not necessarily faster). Again, to me it comes down to the rifle itself, for instance how its setup, how accurate it is and how nicely it shoots, as well as the Ammo I have available.
Or, split the difference between both, gain all the advantages and only a fraction of either's downsides with the phenomenal 7mm-08. Reload it to even compete with 270Win (factory) performance!
Lol I was about to type something similar and thought “someone’s beat me to it I’ll bet.” Same magazine capacity. Able to use a 20” barrel. Lots and lots of projectiles to choose from. Lighter recoil than a 308 and more energy down range than 6.5 Creedmoor. Considerably flatter trajectory than 308. The big downside to 7mm-08 is ammo availability and rifle choices. Sure everyone “makes” their rifles in 7mm-08 but try to find one in a store… there are 5-10 rifles in either 308 or 6.5 CM for every one on the rack in 7mm-08. A few days ago my Cabelas had 11 variations of 270 Winchester, 25+ in 6.5 Creedmoor, and I didn’t count the 308 variants. 1 choice for 7mm-08 and I’d never heard of the manufacturer. I hand load and am about to build a light-ish hunting rifle so neither bothers me.
I dont understand all the 6.5 is a significantly fast argument. Take a Nosler ABLR, 129gr at 2807 vs Nosler ABLR 168 at 2698. That's a 109 fps difference; or 3.9% more speed; but 39 gr weight diffence; or 23% increase. I'd call that more efficient. Both great, but I've come around to 308 is not the wrong answer for pretty much anything. 6.5Cr isn't wrong for most, but inside of 400 yards; I would take 308 9 times out of 10; but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Simple physics - increasing mass increases the energy less than increasing the speed. Without doing the math, because it's late here and I am lazy, I think a 3.9% increase in speed will increase kinetic energy than the 23% increase in mass. KE= 1/2MV^2 Quick example; Double the mass, but keep the same speed, and you get double the kinetic energy. Double the speed but keep the same mass, and you get 4 times as much energy.
Splitting hairs between the 2. Barrel life ammo selection and availability tips the scales in favor of the 308 for me. I own both and like them both but 308 is the clear winner head to head. Hard to beat a 308 with a 168 gr partition out to 4 or 500 yds for hunting. But the most important thing is the shooter and how much practice you put in regardless of caliber
6.5 is far more forgiving for shots over 800. At most huntimg ranges the 308 is excellent but shooting steel or maybe predators at true long range the 6.5 has a clear edge
168 eldm with a bc of .523 going 2800 fps makes almost 3000 lbs ft of energy at the muzzle, at 1k yards that bullet is still going like 1400 with an energy of 800 lb.ft that beats pretty much Any 6.5 creedmoor load
I got a SAKO in 6.5 PRC as it provides some additional velocity at range. Interesting to listen to guys try and split hairs between to medium game cartridges.... Then I don't see enough difference between the 308 and the Creedmore to justify the higher cost and lower choice options. My 308 is my go to, and the 6.5 PRC was a impulse buy because I wanted a SAKO.
A buddy of mine packed around a 26" 6.5 on a 10 day remote hunt in pws... by the end of this winter he had the local gunsmith chop it down to 18" like my rifle cause it was unwieldy to pack through willow thickets and up mountains 😆
It’s funny that people get all twisted up about a “long action” that adds, what, 1/2” to length? However, some cartridges really need a 24” or even 26” barrel while the 308 and others can do fine with a 20” or even 18” barrel. Which makes a bigger difference in rifle handiness? This gets even more important when you start talking about suppressors.
I have a cva scout in 6.5 creedmoor. talk about a small compact rifle with a 20 inch barrel. has a youth stock on it also, because winter clothing adds alot and full stock is all messed up with alot layer. but if you dont mind a single shot, it's the way to go to keep barrel length and keep the package small. not haveing 6 to 7 inchs of reciever really shortens every nicely. and that cva scout while not going to win me any matches can consistently keep my shots in a 1.5 inch group all day long, and any thing that does 2.5 groups I consider hunting good. it's most definitely a hunting rifle, worth looking into. and you can reload dang fast if you practice. not much difference in a bolt action. iv gotten off a second shot a few times on deer no problems.
My hunting was a bit of a stuffup this year. I could not find a Waterbuck for my .308 to shoot at, and then when we wanted to shoot Blesbuck and springbuck with my 6.5CM, the wind was trying to blow the veld away with it. I got two blesbuck, but it was not a great experience.
Great podcast between the 2. Here in South Carolina, I trend towards the 6.5 due to a little less recoil and will do the job from the critters around these parts. If I was living say up north with bigger game, probably would choose the 308 for being a 30 caliber and you could use a heavier bullet. Both are great cartridges for medium game, I might just pick up both when it’s all said and done, thanks guys.
Another great podcast. I think you need to do it but the stipulation needs to be with the 6.5 Creedmoor you shoot the most popular weight bullets i.e. 140, 143, 147 grain. And with the .308 you shoot the 150 to 165 grain.
I have 7mm08 308win 6.5cm and love them , for elk n moose bush hunting 308win 168gr ,for deer 7mm08 140gr and for long range target shooting 6.5cm 147gr
I think a 3 way conversation with Ryan M., Ron Spomer Outdoors and Backfires, Jim Harmer my 3 favorite goto pod casts for losing myself in total hunting rifle indulgence...
A comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and the 7mm-08 Remington would be interesting. At least they have bullet weights in common so a more apples to apples comparison to speak would be interesting.
2 Completely different rounds that serve the hunter well, 1 originally designed to serve as a convenient military round ,1 designed to hit a bullseye at a long range distance! Both are great at what they do ! Would love to have either one!
I would love to see this test done. I actually have a lot of ideas floating around in my head right now for ways to do it. If you are serious about doing gel testing you should reach out to ballistic dummies lab and see if they can do a deer chest for you.
Thank you for discussing bullet design. I feel that many hunters are ignorant of bullets and the characteristics of what they are hunting with. I have been guilty of using the wrong bullet for what I needed to accomplish. Hopefully, that won't happen to me again.
I've played a drinking game as I've listened to multiple back-to-back episodes. I take a drink every time I hear "smattering" and "folded like a five dollar bill." I'm now more than half hiccup snockered...
6.5 is a better catridige on performance; 308 is better for military guns, automatic loading and so on. Diferent finalities. 6.5 wears faster gun barrels too. What is important to you?
17:05 I absolutely agree. Its in fact the reason I avoided considering bolt action, for many years, Only now finding the Tikka and thinking. Oh. That's beautiful. Ok. I accept. Between a buttered glass action, and minimal recoil, It seems very pleasant and effective.
Great conversation! Another metric while comparing might include short barrel lengths. Mark often mentions compact hunting rifles. Does one cartridge outperform another with shorter barrels. I find I like hunting with a suppressor and barrel length can be an issue. Keep up the good work
Let’s get some ballistics gel and light this candle! Examining bullet construction and performance on test media, I’m looking forward to this conversation. Request? 308 win/Barnes TTSX bullets performance, between their factory ammo weight ranges. Example 130gr vs 150gr vs 168gr. Always enjoy 10 min talk podcast 👍!!
I went .308 with a 16.25" barrel and a supressor. Nice because there are better subsonic bullets for .308. I load the 168 gr. Accubond LR for heavy loads and the Hornady Sub-X 175 for my subsonics. The range I typically take deer on the properties I hunt is 50-120 yards. The subsonic is still perfect for that and no ear pro needed. ;) I have a 1-4 x 25 lpvo and Iron sights on the .308 - Mossberg MVP in .308. I should add that being a box magazine fed, I can carry two mags one for high power in case a long range shot becomes available and keeping the subsonic in the rifle ready. I'd love to see your in depth review.
Oh absolutely! I’ve had great experiences with 6.5 for target shooting and honestly I think it’d make a great military cartridge as well. It’s flat shooting, absurd range, easy recoil management. A stellar caliber that’s easily approachable. Though I’ll admit there’s just something about .308 / 7.62 x 51 I just love. It’s kind of my go-to hunting cartridge and it’s just great fun to shoot.
If ballistics gel tests are performed, please test bullets at ranges/velocities of extended ranges. Terminal performance at extended ranges of 600 yards would be more relevant than 100 yards in todays world. At least test certain long range bullets such as ABLR and or federal terminal ascent at the 600 yards.
I would LOVE to see ballistics gel tests at 300 yards. That would help separate the wheat from the chaff both in bullet choices and cartridge choices. Shooting ballistics gel at 10-25 yards isn’t meaningless, but 300 yards would be MUCH more interesting to me.
Thank you for acknowledging 6.5 creed can be enough for elk. My dad and I have 6 elk between each of us in Wyoming, all with a 6.5 creed. Last year my dad got his at 650 yards, which I'll admit it's a little risky, but anything sub 500 yards is plenty fine if you know how to shoot your gun.
People always think about bullet weight, but I rarely hear people talking about sectional density, which so matters, and the 6.5 has very good sectional density.
To settle this in some meaningful way, you would need to go on an extensive cull hunt in Africa, hunt same species/size(lets say at least 30 comparable animals each) with both the 308 and 6.5 cm in similar rifles and comparable bullet construction (Tikka T3x with eldx or ttsx) and collect data (distance, placement, how much time to get down etc)
Here's the problem with the 308 cartridge and why I've never understood how it became so popular. In order to really get efficient velocity, you need to shoot the lighter for caliber bullets with a lower BC. The 130s-150s shoot great out of the 308. But they also shoot great out of a 270 with a higher BC. You wanna step up to the 165-175 grain bullets? Good choice, oh, except that the 7mm chamberings do it better. The 30 cal bullets do great between 165-220, and now with the 300 PRC, up to 250. Oh, but your velocity with the 308 with those bullets is in the low 2000s. Wanna shoot those out of the 308, it's going to look like a basketball shot to shoot it to 500 yards. The thing the 308 does do well, is save your barrel life. Great. 80% of guns bought today will never have the barrel burned out, regardless of caliber or chambering
Where I live 6.5 creedmore is not a legal option for full size game, sambar deer predominate and while they aren't elk , they are big. Min cal legal in Vic Australia for sambar is .270, so the creed is out yet 30-30 is perfectly acceptable, logical..... Most run .308 or 30-06
I'd love to see the ballistics gel tests done! For increased realism you could put a piece of deer hide over the end you are shooting, and you could even put a deer scapula in the mould as you pour the gel in, to see the different rounds effects on bone penetration.
A half dozen YT channels (noted in particular earlier in the thread) have done this. As has some other channel done the other particulars on their channel. Be easier to interview each "expert" than start a knew on already established metrics/science.
Hahaha, absolutely! Luckily for me I've matured past taking sides on this one lol. My .308 serves me well, but I know a 6.5 Creed would do just as well for me.
Good point about the 308 case. It took me a long time to admit the 243 would kill deer just as dead as my 270 at reasonable, ethical hunting distances. I never thought of a 243 as a medium bore. For me that's .338, .358, .366 (9.3mm) and .375" bullet diameters. I have at least one rifle shooting bullets in all those diameters except the 375. 358 Winchester is great but little known number. I don't have a 243 but it's better on my wish list in a Savage model 99. Happy hunting!😊
My friend from South Africa recently took his 6.5 Creedmoor with on an Eland hunt. At 210m hit right through the heart with an ELD-X, it ran maybe 20 paces and fell. I'm going to be taking my .308 after Eland soon and I am expecting pretty much the same result, based on shot placement. If I had both a .308 and a 6.5 Creed, I'd probably just pick on or the other based on the Ammo I have and which rifle is more fun to shoot, or whether it's the first tuesday of the month! I highly doubt I'd ever notice a difference in Terminal performance, only in recoil and joy to use, which both are affected just as much by the rifle itself.
I'm in SA and split between which one to get. A mate also just went with his 6.5 and shot everything under the sun with zero take down issues. The idea of walk and stalk plains game hunting would probably lend to a lighter 6.5 setup?
@@SeanZAcz Personally I think that as long as you put it where it needs to be with a bullet that does the job well, you probably won't notice a difference. I've unfortunately not been able to shoot a 6.5 yet, but hopefully soon. In my opinion, choose whichever you can find ammo for as well as a nicer rifle. I prefer the Howa 1500 and put mine into a stock/chassis, so for me the rifle part is sorted. As for ammo, up here in Namibia when I went into the store they had about 10 boxes of 6.5 Creed in total and 8 types of .308 with plenty of stock... so I went with the .308 - every time I'm in the store, there's plenty of ammo available. As per rifle setup, honestly I think you'd be just fine with a lightweight .308 or 6.5 just the same. I don't know if I'd notice the recoil difference. Personally, my choice would come down to what I have - if I have something smaller like a 6mm, I'd go .308, if I have something bigger like a .30-06 or .300 Mag, I'd go 6.5. Just to create a little bit more diversity between the choices. Don't be too troubled by it, you'll enjoy either. Lekker skiet!
I have a 308 because it is still a nato standard. I do like the look of the 6.5, but would like to see it become a standard before investing alot into it. I would like to see a scar heavy in 6.5.
I've always thought this conversation was remedied pretty easily. If you live east of the Mississippi River, use a .308Win. If you live west of the Mississippi River, use a 6.5Creedmoor. The problem is fixed for many who own guns because most of us own more than one. So have both.
Idc if it takes months, years. I want to see ordinance gel tests of the top 5 most common bullets in the top 3 cartridges of every caliber from .22 to .50. I'll take a 100 yard test, but I would like to see tests at 300 and 500
Interesting and thoughtful conversation, thank you. I faced this decision personally when picking my Scout rifle and I went with the 308. Not because the 308 is better but it is better for me given my background, education and experience. That written, my next barrel for my Encore will be the 8.6 BLK - as soon as I can buy it - which is a child cartridge of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
One of the interesting parts of this argument has to to with average accuracy with factory ammo. Terminal performance depends on hitting the right spot. The 6.5 Creedmoor is more recent design than the 308 and especially, a lot of "old faithfuls" like the 30-06 and 270. The Creedmoor was initially designed as a competition cartridge and its chamber has features that make it easier to get a very accurate loading. In particular, the 6.5 CM has.a relatively long section of straight freebore (only 1/2 thousand of an inch larger than the bullet dia) that acts like a guide to align the bullet with the bore and keep it straight as it engraves in the rifling. The 308 also has a section of freebore, but it is shorter and has four times the clearance to allow the bullet to wiggle a little as it engraves. The 30-06, 270 (and even the WSM's) have just a taper into the rifling with nothing to help align the bullet. Although each of these cartridges can be very accurate, ones with long, tight freebore tend to be less picky and more likely to shoot small groups with off-the-shelf ammo Note: The section of long, tight freebore is not really new, the 1940's Weatherby Magnums have it and virtually all "match chambers" utilized in accuracy competition have used it for decades.
32:42 As a first time rifle purchaser, I selected the 6.5CM for the exact reasons outlined in Ryan’s Story - I just couldn’t articulate it. Now that I have it, my next question is: What’s the next cartridge for Large North American Game. Ryan kinda hinted that it’s the .308 Would love to see a Podcast Named: So you bought a 6.5 Creedmoor, what’s your next purchase for America’s Big Game? Taking the attributes of the 6.5 CM and scaling up to cover anything you could come across including grizzlies and moose would be super interesting. Is it the .308, is it the 30-06, is it the .280 AI, is it the .270 Win, is it the 7Rem Mag - I Don’t know Mark! I just don’t know!
Even older calibers like the 30.06 with new powders and new projectile technology have become a different performance caliber than what they were originally intended. The 308 the 30.06. the 270 the 243 are going to benefit from new powders and new projectile technology.
They can't compete on high bc bullet options though. Fine for hunting medium game at reasonable ranges but out of their league in long range competition
I have, and shoot and reload both. You will find the 6.5 creedmoor will be slightly more accurate -less drop. However, you can get more weight in the 308. So given the same speed on impact it will give more energy on the target. I load to give more speed out the barrel with both, slightly. While the 308 is more easy to find over the counter, the 6.5 Creed has become easy to get too. it depends on if your hunting or target shooting. But mostly it depends on if you practice, get that?
Please explain with some proof other than opinion how the 6.5 will be more accurate. I've shot in most rifle disciplines competitively since 1996 & would love to see the proof so that I may enlighten my fellow competitors
I would really like to hear Ryan and Ron Spomer talk about cartridges. This is the level-headed, experienced, and informed type of discussion we all need. All the while, entertaining.
Ron and Ryan have a nice ring to it.
I'd donate to this idea
Could be a great podcast!
Yup
I think Ryan and Ron would get along swimmingly
As long as Ryan is here the podcast is good.
And Mark:).
Mark B.
@Vortex Nation Mark B. is definitely the unsung hero of the podcast. He's like your buddy who always has extra ear and eye pro for whoever forgets. He keeps the wheels on the train turning.
@@VortexNation I do like the podcast best with all 3 of you on it ;)
@@VortexNation 🤣🤣🤣
308 will be king as long as it's cheaper and readily available where ammo is sold. Wide variety of choices also helps 308.
Perfectly stated 👍
True but It could lose its place in the near future. I’m seeing more and more 6.5cm and it’s maybe $5 less per box
If cheap is yer criteria, then 22lr is king lol. 6.5 destroys 308 at any real range, if you never take shots past 200 then yea 308 all day but 500+ 6.5 is another league, 308 might as well be flintlock.
No 6.5 cm to be had during pandemic in my parts and an entire shelf full of .308, so I tend to agree.
If you reload 308 can cost more using similar quality components
Think I'll just split the difference and go 7mm-08. I wish 7mm-08 ammo was more available and cheaper like .308.
👍🏻
yes. I wish there was more 7-08 I'd make the switch from 6.5
Im thinking it just wasnt dIfferent enough from the 308 to be wildley popular.
@@anonymousf454 I believe that to be the case as well.
I've been waiting for this topic for a long time
Nobody talks about sectional density in comparisons. This is why the 6.5 swede was so successful.
Who’s swede? lol jk
Great flow between the two of you, looking forward to a cartridge talk on the 7.5 Swiss
I went with .308 because I wanted a 20-inch barrel. On an old podcast, Ryan recommended starting with the bullet you want to hunt with and develop a load for it. I agree with you both that the right bullet for the job and practice is far more important than what cal. you use. Great info, guys!
Been looking hard at 6.5cm for awhile and the other new cartridges for a new rifle, and it does seem like the conversation should REALLY be about bullets for sure!
Please do this segment and call it Cartridge Science!
Stay tuned! 😎
Right!? Definitely would like to see more of these videos. Be cool to see why 25-06 destroys every other "deer" cartridge. Lol
.264 + .308 = .572 Divide by 2 = .286 So just go .284 close enough so the answer is 7mm-08 Rem. or reload 7mm x 57 Mauser TC Men
Hear hear, let’s hear it for the venerable 7’s. Unless I’m in coastal brown bear country, then I’m carrying a .338 howitzer.
Good point on the reloaded 7x57. The original 7x57 pressure was 50,307 CUP in the supposedly relatively weak model 93 action. Although according to some that
there is no really accurate formula for converting CUP to PSI, using one of the supposed most accurate formulas that translates to 58,458 PSI. In plenty strong actions like my Kar. 98, which is really a medium length action, you can take full advantage of the 7x57's larger case capacity over the 7mm-08. You can get the 7x57 pretty close to 270 Winchester performance with careful hand loads. The same can be said for the 6.5x55 vs the 6.5 Creedmoor. I've got all the cartridge/calibers listed herein and a lot more except the 6.5 Creedmoor. Over the last 50 years I've harvested more deer with my Ruger M77 270 Winchester than anything else. All the rest are just for occasional variety. If I had to get rid of all but one and couldn't hand load I'd stick with the 308 Winchester. Widest selection of bullet weights, common cup and core bullets or premium varieties from many manufacturers priced accordingly and availability. Except for the availability and price issues I'd pick the 7mm-08. Flat shooting, less recoil than the 308. Plenty of inexpensive, synthetic stocked rifles that I hate to admit are amazingly accurate. I'm old and traditional like the cartridge and rifle combinations I like. Happy hunting boys and girls!😊
The reloading manuals state that there are two different factory loadings for the Swede in Europe. Because modern arms are able to tolerate higher pressures, but there are still old rifles around.
All the big deal about that Creedmore disappears once you know that. Practicing is difficult when you cannot afford it because of the price. It's all academic when you live and hunt where a three hundred yard shot is exceedingly rare.
Act accordingly to your own situation
7 PRC is the answer
@@MrRourk
Could be just load for accuracy !
For me, if you mostly hunt, go .308 for the versatility. If you mostly target shoot but hunt on occasion, go 6.5CR.
Just get both imo. I agree with you entirely btw. But there’s nothing wrong with having and being proficient in both, and I think that should be everyone’s goal
6.5 is far superior to any 308 honestly except in price!
@@mylesharvey6488 please explain, be specific
@@Yelladog78 I think it was a typo 6mm ARC
@@traceyevans2757except that’s a 2nd gun 2nd ammo type. And you’re not really gaining much other than more available ammo types. So maybe just go 308 and who cares that it drops a little less and drifts a little more. If you’re dialing and holding for wind. It’s not like you’re making pop shots. It’s not sub 300 blk vs 55g 223 at distance. What difference does it make if you hold 2 mils or 3 mils for wind when you know what you’re holding for your round anyway. So I see why and don’t disagree with both. But with the caveat you’re adding a rifle and cartridge to your arsenal that might be space and capability better used elsewhere. If someone has a 6.5 but no shot gun. Maybe get a 12g instead of a 308. Know what I mean? 9mm, 556, 308/-06/.270/6.5creed/7remmag pick one, 12g. After those 4. Get whatever you want. But I’d say have those 4 first. You can concealed carry fight hunt and survive. After that double down with another bolt gun maybe a magnum, another pistol maybe 45 or 10mm or 357, maybe have a little 22 lr. Build out capabilities. Not collectables.
😂 once I heard the old bull and the young calf instantly thought of step brothers 🤣
7-08 splits the difference beautifully but whatever cartridge checks your boxes wins
Another great podcast. Thanks guys. I've got a 6.5, but not a .308. I've been a 30-06 guy, more than a .308 forever, and the 30-06 has always been considered a .308 magnum to me. This podcast has opened my eyes a bit more on the .308.
If you have a 6.5, the 308 doesn't add much. The 30-06 (or a 270) is an actual step up in power.
@@texpatriot8462you can literally handload 308 to match 3006 up until like 200 grain bullet weights, then the 3006s greater case capacity has the advantage.
@@chanoleyva8584there is no situation where a .308 can match a 30-06 loaded to equal pressures. It simply has more room for powder. If you said it’s an irrelevant difference at the lighter bullet weights, I’d agree with that.
A bullet tailored to application can help so much. Not just the cartridge but also the intended game. I look forward to the results of the extensive testing 😅
6.5, the calibre we never knew we needed. Remington, missed it with the .260 there.
But the swedes got it right over a century ago
Even for a few years after the 6.5 Creedmoor was introduced I kept seeing articles along the lines of "The Unpopular 6.5'". It took several years for the Creedmoor to get popular for hunting.. It started out as a 1000yard competition cartridge. It was its long range accuracy with inexpensive rifles that got people's attention at first. The 260, although sometimes used in competition, was really thought of as more of a youth and ladies hunting cartridge. Kinda a lesser version of a 308.
Swedes been winning matches and shooting moose with it for over a century try telling them it's a ladies cartridge. Creedmoor is nothing new just fits in a short action and Remington botched 260 just like they did 244 wrong twist
@@paulknopp5694 No one has implied the 6.5x55 was considered a women's cartridge. 6.5's just were not popular in the US until the mid 2010's. Not many seemed to know about the 6.5x55 in the 1960's when I was growing up. Many DID know that the Japanese used a 6.5 in WWII and generally disparaged the cartridge in comparison to the 30-06.
The twist on the 260 Rem is OK for 140 grain bullets, so that wasn't really the problem. Being a necked-down 308 meant that it was limited to bullets with a relatively short ogive, at least in a short action. It was mainly considered a low-recoil variant of the 308. A half-step up from a 243 and best for the slight of frame or recoil sensitive. A perfect example is that the outdoors writer Ron Spomer prefers hunting cartridges more powerful than the 308 whereas his wife shoots a 260.
Sorry I misunderstood I'm not trying to cause a fight. I'm very happy that the 65 caliber has become so popular of late because there's a lot better bullet selection than there ever was
For car guys 308 is a naturally aspirated V8 and 6.5 Creed is a twin turbo 6 cylinder - Basically
fantastic episode, that leaves me thirsting for the terminal ballistic finally podcast!!! Great job fellas
Both of these cartridges hold 40-45 gr of powder(potential energy) and have a wide variety of projectiles available. It should be no surprise that they share a lot of performance overlap and are basically interchangeable.
I Just went 308 24. 1/10 twist I'm happy with it so far Wonder about the 6.5 though
@@simonharris4801 be happy with your 308. The real advantage of the creed in my book is the factory ammo. If you compare say 168 gold medal match to 140 hornady match the 6.5 creedmoor is way better probably once you get beyond 600-700 yards. If you start hand loading the performance gap will shrink a lot. You can get a way better bullet and probably pick up 100-150 ft/sec and then the only real disadvantage to the 308 is recoil and that isn’t a big deal unless you are on a timed event.
Great idea with the gel. Just add the 7-08 to the mix😂😂
Yes please!
We want JIM
Jim will be back!
I want ur mom
The best way I've found to look at these two rounds is. I prefer 308 300yards and in. And 6.5 for all applications past 300. That's ware the creed shines. The 308 beats it for hunting in every way inside 300. The 6.5 beats 308 in every way past 300. That sums it up in a fast way I think 🤔
This.
The 6.5 does not beat the 308 past 300 in retained energy. Honestly not a huge difference in drop and drift either. If you are seeing the 308 fall off at 300 yards significantly you need a different bullet
Gotta go well past 300 before the differences really start adding up.
@@K-bob_45 Exactly, even 6.5 grendel will be able to hit just as far but without that extra oomph. These wildcats are usually designed for long range shooting in design instead of a mixture of lethality and range.
@@K-bob_45 yes 300 is ware the 6.5 and 308 meet and the 6.5 is better accurate and better energy past 300 idk what planet ur on but that's ware the 6.5 pulls ahead. It's facts not opinion
Would definitely make a cool comparison. I would also love to see the 270 win added to the comparison for terminal ballistics to the 6.5 creed.
Ryan said it a while back…”the hottest 6.5creed loading doesn’t come close to the most standard .270win offering”
I would like to hear Ryan talk differences between .243, 6 creed, and 6.5 creed. I have always loved my little .243 for dusting yote's and then loading some 90gr barnes for blackbear and deer size game.
Ryan's knowledge of cartridges and ballistics is incredible for his age (im assuming hes in is early 30s or maybe late 20s)
35 I believe!
Eggzacamundo grasshopper! Lotsa knowledge in the Grey Matter filing themselves accordingly. We would Wish
23:16
That list for the 'new shooter'
Exactly what I was considering, in watching your 270 vs 30-06 comparison earlier today.
Excellent presentation.
Thank you.
"He was equally as dead. I ate all of him." Poetic.
6:56
Read your comment moments before he said it😂 Love this line too
He has a way with words
True that
6.5 is fun to shoot therefore one will shoot (practice) more often. But as said " 30 caliber will help you sleep better when more maybe needed."
Very very outstanding video guy’s. Great job. Keep the language clean too. Keep up the good work. Thanks a lot friend. SC Navy vet. 1965. 🇺🇸😊
I went down the 6.5 cm road a few years ago after decades with the 308. I built an AR-10 Frankenrifle with a carbon fiber barrel and just loved the accuracy. But I built it to hunt and clearly the rifle was unwieldy pig. After a couple years in the field with handloads I was not all that impressed. Within “normal” hunting ranges, under 350 yards, the 308 has better terminal ballistics. Bigger holes and more blood on the ground makes for easy tracking when called for. I don’t miss the 6.5 at all. For longer ranges I have a stupid accurate 7mag with a brake so recoil is no issue.
Frontal area is a very legitimate factor. I love the Swede and feel that it is very capable but as you know the smaller bores are more sensitive to bullet choice, get to the .308 and larger and the average bullet is simply more effective….It becomes a much bigger deal when we get into big bodied deer and larger critters.
And then there's the 7mm"08!
Still waiting for that 300 Win Mag Ryan
Ryan: "Yes"!
More conversation / comparison like this Podcast please!
and please try to make a Podcast with Ron Spomer and Ryan!
Thanks!
Regards from Switzerland.
Id be so happy to see y'all do a podventure with 6.5 and 308 on gel. If it goes well expand it to other commonly used medium game cartridges.
Yes! Maybe thrown in other cartridges. Multiple Projectiles for a variety of species.
Stay tuned! 😏
.308 is superior in ballistics
@@boygonewhoopdataZZ depends on what you are after
@@VortexNation When are you going to make a bow sight for us? 😏
The .308 does put more energy on target at ethical hunting distances (
Bruh the 6.5 need more cant even kill a whitetail less than 300 yards. Too many horror storys that is a target round not a hunting round. Too many fanboys tried to push that round and hype it up, now so many people are losing deer. And no i dont own a .308, i roll with the king of cartridges 7mm rem mag. I back it up with .30-06 springfield.
@kylecomeaux7880 That is an objectively ridiculous statement, considering that 243 Win (a less powerful cartridge) has decades of success against whitetails and that the European continent has seen over a century of very successfully hunting moose and stag with 6.5x55 Swede (which is functionally identical to 6.5CM).
Your statements sound more like the result of 6.5CM being the default cartridge of new hunters over the last decade, and too many new hunters don't know what the heck they're doing.
@@gpearce116.5cm is a garbage round. Its made for TARGET shooting, i wont be convinced otherwise. I’ll stick to my tried and true cartridges
find the 6.5 cheaper then 308 here in canada were I am. last trip to the store the prices were
6.5 creedmore $33.99 a box
308 $41.99 a box
both were winchester power points.
@@outdoorsythings2573 That can certainly be the case. I only give 308 the budget conscious nob because there's much, much more low-end (read: poor quality) ammo available, and if you're on a really strict budget, that might be the difference between shooting and not (especially for training. It's all well and good to fork out for a box of Precision Hunter for the actual hunt, but that's expensive ammo to practice with).
If you reload or stick to decent/good factory ammo, then that point is totally irrelevant.
Where I live in Georgia 308 win is the number 1 most available ammo with different options then 30-06 and 6.5 cm are fighting for 2nd but I've never shot anything with a 308 or 6.5cm but the fun thing about cartridges is that they all work lol
6.5 for me any day if I need speed within 300 yards ❤
Wait.. speed? If you mean Velocity, my .308 runs 168gr ELD-M at ~2750fps, which is pretty much what I'd expect a 6.5 Creed to do with a 143gr. Although, personally I'd choose either one if I had both, based on what I have ammo for and which rifle I prefer shooting.
Buy a chronograph and tell me which one has more speed inside 300 yards.
@@travismckenney407 okay, now I have to wonder - how is a chronograph going to tell you the speed at 300?
Of course - use a ballistic calculator to calculate it using the BC off the same box that told you the velocity, which is also prone to being wrong (sometimes right, sometimes wrong - just like the velocity. BC changes as well). So what's the point of buying a chronograph for this, just look at a calculator.
I've checked both Hornady and Nosler Ammo. The Creed generally starts a little behind, but not by much and at 300 it's closed the gap to be within 100fps almost every time (except one Hornady Match load where it's ahead - 6.5 147gr ELD-M at 2695fps vs .308 168gr ELD-M at 2700fps). But that is only if you're comparing 140gr vs 165gr. If you go to 130gr for the 6.5 or 180gr for the .308, the BCs are generally more similar and the Velocities shift more in the Creeds favour (not necessarily faster).
Again, to me it comes down to the rifle itself, for instance how its setup, how accurate it is and how nicely it shoots, as well as the Ammo I have available.
@@marcmoore4115 I was agreeing with you stupid. I was arguing with him. Good lord catch a clue
Frontline Rejects channel has great bullet testing on it
Or, split the difference between both, gain all the advantages and only a fraction of either's downsides with the phenomenal 7mm-08. Reload it to even compete with 270Win (factory) performance!
Lol I was about to type something similar and thought “someone’s beat me to it I’ll bet.” Same magazine capacity. Able to use a 20” barrel. Lots and lots of projectiles to choose from. Lighter recoil than a 308 and more energy down range than 6.5 Creedmoor. Considerably flatter trajectory than 308.
The big downside to 7mm-08 is ammo availability and rifle choices. Sure everyone “makes” their rifles in 7mm-08 but try to find one in a store… there are 5-10 rifles in either 308 or 6.5 CM for every one on the rack in 7mm-08. A few days ago my Cabelas had 11 variations of 270 Winchester, 25+ in 6.5 Creedmoor, and I didn’t count the 308 variants. 1 choice for 7mm-08 and I’d never heard of the manufacturer. I hand load and am about to build a light-ish hunting rifle so neither bothers me.
I dont understand all the 6.5 is a significantly fast argument. Take a Nosler ABLR, 129gr at 2807 vs Nosler ABLR 168 at 2698. That's a 109 fps difference; or 3.9% more speed; but 39 gr weight diffence; or 23% increase. I'd call that more efficient. Both great, but I've come around to 308 is not the wrong answer for pretty much anything. 6.5Cr isn't wrong for most, but inside of 400 yards; I would take 308 9 times out of 10; but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Simple physics - increasing mass increases the energy less than increasing the speed. Without doing the math, because it's late here and I am lazy, I think a 3.9% increase in speed will increase kinetic energy than the 23% increase in mass.
KE= 1/2MV^2
Quick example; Double the mass, but keep the same speed, and you get double the kinetic energy.
Double the speed but keep the same mass, and you get 4 times as much energy.
Splitting hairs between the 2. Barrel life ammo selection and availability tips the scales in favor of the 308 for me. I own both and like them both but 308 is the clear winner head to head. Hard to beat a 308 with a 168 gr partition out to 4 or 500 yds for hunting. But the most important thing is the shooter and how much practice you put in regardless of caliber
6.5 is far more forgiving for shots over 800. At most huntimg ranges the 308 is excellent but shooting steel or maybe predators at true long range the 6.5 has a clear edge
168 eldm with a bc of .523 going 2800 fps makes almost 3000 lbs ft of energy at the muzzle, at 1k yards that bullet is still going like 1400 with an energy of 800 lb.ft that beats pretty much Any 6.5 creedmoor load
@@chanoleyva8584 lol
@@jwalesoutlaw3294 6.5 cm is overrated in my opinion
@chanoleyva8584 not for shooting at 1000 yards it's not its why you don't see any 308s competing in PRS
I got a SAKO in 6.5 PRC as it provides some additional velocity at range. Interesting to listen to guys try and split hairs between to medium game cartridges.... Then I don't see enough difference between the 308 and the Creedmore to justify the higher cost and lower choice options. My 308 is my go to, and the 6.5 PRC was a impulse buy because I wanted a SAKO.
I also like that you can get 18 and 20" 308 rifles a lot easier then 18-20" Creedmores.
A buddy of mine packed around a 26" 6.5 on a 10 day remote hunt in pws... by the end of this winter he had the local gunsmith chop it down to 18" like my rifle cause it was unwieldy to pack through willow thickets and up mountains 😆
It’s funny that people get all twisted up about a “long action” that adds, what, 1/2” to length? However, some cartridges really need a 24” or even 26” barrel while the 308 and others can do fine with a 20” or even 18” barrel. Which makes a bigger difference in rifle handiness? This gets even more important when you start talking about suppressors.
I have a cva scout in 6.5 creedmoor. talk about a small compact rifle with a 20 inch barrel. has a youth stock on it also, because winter clothing adds alot and full stock is all messed up with alot layer. but if you dont mind a single shot, it's the way to go to keep barrel length and keep the package small. not haveing 6 to 7 inchs of reciever really shortens every nicely. and that cva scout while not going to win me any matches can consistently keep my shots in a 1.5 inch group all day long, and any thing that does 2.5 groups I consider hunting good. it's most definitely a hunting rifle, worth looking into. and you can reload dang fast if you practice. not much difference in a bolt action. iv gotten off a second shot a few times on deer no problems.
My hunting was a bit of a stuffup this year. I could not find a Waterbuck for my .308 to shoot at, and then when we wanted to shoot Blesbuck and springbuck with my 6.5CM, the wind was trying to blow the veld away with it. I got two blesbuck, but it was not a great experience.
Recent podcast with Ron Spomer and Randy Newberg he uses 308 on elk and like the 708 for deer and pronghorn. He recent got a 6.5 prc to play with.
Randy said it’s his new pet to play with so it will be interesting to see if the 6.5 PRC becomes his favorite!
Can we get a 10 min talk on the 416 rem mag?
Great podcast between the 2. Here in South Carolina, I trend towards the 6.5 due to a little less recoil and will do the job from the critters around these parts. If I was living say up north with bigger game, probably would choose the 308 for being a 30 caliber and you could use a heavier bullet. Both are great cartridges for medium game, I might just pick up both when it’s all said and done, thanks guys.
Another great podcast. I think you need to do it but the stipulation needs to be with the 6.5 Creedmoor you shoot the most popular weight bullets i.e. 140, 143, 147 grain. And with the .308 you shoot the 150 to 165 grain.
Yes to the experimentation
You should also do a comparison of the different 300s, winmag wsm rum wby
I have 7mm08 308win 6.5cm and love them , for elk n moose bush hunting 308win 168gr ,for deer 7mm08 140gr and for long range target shooting 6.5cm 147gr
Let's play a drinking game, everytime Ryan says "smattering" we all take a shot 😅
It is basically a moral imperative that you do the terminating terminal performance turmoil cartridge science segment.
I think a 3 way conversation with Ryan M., Ron Spomer Outdoors and Backfires, Jim Harmer my 3 favorite goto pod casts for losing myself in total hunting rifle indulgence...
A comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and the 7mm-08 Remington would be interesting. At least they have bullet weights in common so a more apples to apples comparison to speak would be interesting.
2 Completely different rounds that serve the hunter well, 1 originally designed to serve as a convenient military round ,1 designed to hit a bullseye at a long range distance! Both are great at what they do ! Would love to have either one!
I would love to see this test done. I actually have a lot of ideas floating around in my head right now for ways to do it. If you are serious about doing gel testing you should reach out to ballistic dummies lab and see if they can do a deer chest for you.
The talks with just you two ,are much better flowing and easier to watch. For me anyway. 😊
Thank you for discussing bullet design. I feel that many hunters are ignorant of bullets and the characteristics of what they are hunting with. I have been guilty of using the wrong bullet for what I needed to accomplish. Hopefully, that won't happen to me again.
I've played a drinking game as I've listened to multiple back-to-back episodes. I take a drink every time I hear "smattering" and "folded like a five dollar bill." I'm now more than half hiccup snockered...
6.5 is a better catridige on performance; 308 is better for military guns, automatic loading and so on. Diferent finalities. 6.5 wears faster gun barrels too. What is important to you?
17:05
I absolutely agree.
Its in fact the reason I avoided considering bolt action, for many years,
Only now finding the Tikka and thinking.
Oh.
That's beautiful. Ok. I accept.
Between a buttered glass action, and minimal recoil,
It seems very pleasant and effective.
Great conversation! Another metric while comparing might include short barrel lengths. Mark often mentions compact hunting rifles. Does one cartridge outperform another with shorter barrels. I find I like hunting with a suppressor and barrel length can be an issue. Keep up the good work
Let’s get some ballistics gel and light this candle! Examining bullet construction and performance on test media, I’m looking forward to this conversation.
Request? 308 win/Barnes TTSX bullets performance, between their factory ammo weight ranges. Example 130gr vs 150gr vs 168gr.
Always enjoy 10 min talk podcast 👍!!
Do it!!!!! We need more cowbell!!!!
I went .308 with a 16.25" barrel and a supressor. Nice because there are better subsonic bullets for .308. I load the 168 gr. Accubond LR for heavy loads and the Hornady Sub-X 175 for my subsonics. The range I typically take deer on the properties I hunt is 50-120 yards. The subsonic is still perfect for that and no ear pro needed. ;) I have a 1-4 x 25 lpvo and Iron sights on the .308 - Mossberg MVP in .308. I should add that being a box magazine fed, I can carry two mags one for high power in case a long range shot becomes available and keeping the subsonic in the rifle ready. I'd love to see your in depth review.
Love both! Love my 6.5 for target :)
Oh absolutely! I’ve had great experiences with 6.5 for target shooting and honestly I think it’d make a great military cartridge as well. It’s flat shooting, absurd range, easy recoil management. A stellar caliber that’s easily approachable.
Though I’ll admit there’s just something about .308 / 7.62 x 51 I just love. It’s kind of my go-to hunting cartridge and it’s just great fun to shoot.
So Ryan, sako makes a 156g for 6.5 Creedmoor, bonded led bullet that I dropped a bear with two days ago. Shout out from Canada 🇨🇦
do they ? I'm going to have to look into that. sounds perfect for what I use my 6.5 for.
If ballistics gel tests are performed, please test bullets at ranges/velocities of extended ranges. Terminal performance at extended ranges of 600 yards would be more relevant than 100 yards in todays world. At least test certain long range bullets such as ABLR and or federal terminal ascent at the 600 yards.
I would LOVE to see ballistics gel tests at 300 yards. That would help separate the wheat from the chaff both in bullet choices and cartridge choices. Shooting ballistics gel at 10-25 yards isn’t meaningless, but 300 yards would be MUCH more interesting to me.
You guys Deadset have the best job in the world
😂 We like what we do - thanks for tuning in!
Great video again. Thank you.
16 inch 308 AR-10's built with a little weight savings in mind are fantastic. Mine weights under 10 pounds all kitted out with a 4-12 scope.
Thank you for acknowledging 6.5 creed can be enough for elk. My dad and I have 6 elk between each of us in Wyoming, all with a 6.5 creed. Last year my dad got his at 650 yards, which I'll admit it's a little risky, but anything sub 500 yards is plenty fine if you know how to shoot your gun.
I have a swede and have a dropped elk. I have no issues whatsoever with a 6.5 using a good bullet for anything in North America.
People always think about bullet weight, but I rarely hear people talking about sectional density, which so matters, and the 6.5 has very good sectional density.
To settle this in some meaningful way, you would need to go on an extensive cull hunt in Africa, hunt same species/size(lets say at least 30 comparable animals each) with both the 308 and 6.5 cm in similar rifles and comparable bullet construction (Tikka T3x with eldx or ttsx) and collect data (distance, placement, how much time to get down etc)
Yeah, no kidding. People will curse or promote a projectile or chambering based on a single anecdote
I am putting this in the suggestion box immediately!:)
Mark B.
I'd like to watch Ryan and Jayden discuss hunting, ballistics etc. Sure, gelatin testing.
Here's the problem with the 308 cartridge and why I've never understood how it became so popular. In order to really get efficient velocity, you need to shoot the lighter for caliber bullets with a lower BC. The 130s-150s shoot great out of the 308. But they also shoot great out of a 270 with a higher BC. You wanna step up to the 165-175 grain bullets? Good choice, oh, except that the 7mm chamberings do it better. The 30 cal bullets do great between 165-220, and now with the 300 PRC, up to 250. Oh, but your velocity with the 308 with those bullets is in the low 2000s. Wanna shoot those out of the 308, it's going to look like a basketball shot to shoot it to 500 yards. The thing the 308 does do well, is save your barrel life. Great. 80% of guns bought today will never have the barrel burned out, regardless of caliber or chambering
Where I live 6.5 creedmore is not a legal option for full size game, sambar deer predominate and while they aren't elk , they are big. Min cal legal in Vic Australia for sambar is .270, so the creed is out yet 30-30 is perfectly acceptable, logical.....
Most run .308 or 30-06
I love the quote: "she folded like a $5 tent".
Love this! I’m definitely interested in a real test comparison between these two calibers.
I'd love to see the ballistics gel tests done! For increased realism you could put a piece of deer hide over the end you are shooting, and you could even put a deer scapula in the mould as you pour the gel in, to see the different rounds effects on bone penetration.
More research coming soon! 👀
A half dozen YT channels (noted in particular earlier in the thread) have done this. As has some other channel done the other particulars on their channel. Be easier to interview each "expert" than start a knew on already established metrics/science.
As always an entertaining and interesting discussion!
You should do a cartridge showdown series in collaboration with Hornady 👍
For barrel life and cost per round (based partly on availability), 308 wins, hands down.
95g v max in a 6.5creed is my coyote missile of choice.
The comment section is gonna be big on this one guys!!!
Hahaha, absolutely! Luckily for me I've matured past taking sides on this one lol. My .308 serves me well, but I know a 6.5 Creed would do just as well for me.
I dont think any of the .308 case cartridges are bad . .243 is my medium bore go to.
Good point about the 308 case. It took me a long time to admit the 243 would kill deer just as dead as my 270 at reasonable, ethical hunting distances. I never thought of a 243 as a medium bore. For me that's .338, .358, .366 (9.3mm) and .375" bullet diameters. I have at least one rifle shooting bullets in all those diameters except the 375. 358 Winchester is great but little known number. I don't have a 243 but it's better on my wish list in a Savage model 99. Happy hunting!😊
My friend from South Africa recently took his 6.5 Creedmoor with on an Eland hunt. At 210m hit right through the heart with an ELD-X, it ran maybe 20 paces and fell.
I'm going to be taking my .308 after Eland soon and I am expecting pretty much the same result, based on shot placement.
If I had both a .308 and a 6.5 Creed, I'd probably just pick on or the other based on the Ammo I have and which rifle is more fun to shoot, or whether it's the first tuesday of the month! I highly doubt I'd ever notice a difference in Terminal performance, only in recoil and joy to use, which both are affected just as much by the rifle itself.
I'm in SA and split between which one to get. A mate also just went with his 6.5 and shot everything under the sun with zero take down issues. The idea of walk and stalk plains game hunting would probably lend to a lighter 6.5 setup?
@@SeanZAcz Personally I think that as long as you put it where it needs to be with a bullet that does the job well, you probably won't notice a difference. I've unfortunately not been able to shoot a 6.5 yet, but hopefully soon.
In my opinion, choose whichever you can find ammo for as well as a nicer rifle. I prefer the Howa 1500 and put mine into a stock/chassis, so for me the rifle part is sorted. As for ammo, up here in Namibia when I went into the store they had about 10 boxes of 6.5 Creed in total and 8 types of .308 with plenty of stock... so I went with the .308 - every time I'm in the store, there's plenty of ammo available.
As per rifle setup, honestly I think you'd be just fine with a lightweight .308 or 6.5 just the same. I don't know if I'd notice the recoil difference.
Personally, my choice would come down to what I have - if I have something smaller like a 6mm, I'd go .308, if I have something bigger like a .30-06 or .300 Mag, I'd go 6.5. Just to create a little bit more diversity between the choices.
Don't be too troubled by it, you'll enjoy either. Lekker skiet!
I have a 308 because it is still a nato standard. I do like the look of the 6.5, but would like to see it become a standard before investing alot into it. I would like to see a scar heavy in 6.5.
FN makes one. They're in stock at Bud's Gun Shop right now.
@@barrettanderson2781 now I have to sell my car.
I've always thought this conversation was remedied pretty easily. If you live east of the Mississippi River, use a .308Win. If you live west of the Mississippi River, use a 6.5Creedmoor. The problem is fixed for many who own guns because most of us own more than one. So have both.
The 6.5 projectile is also just great at basically any speed and can come in different weights. We have 6.5 Grendel, Creedmore, and PRC
Idc if it takes months, years. I want to see ordinance gel tests of the top 5 most common bullets in the top 3 cartridges of every caliber from .22 to .50. I'll take a 100 yard test, but I would like to see tests at 300 and 500
Interesting and thoughtful conversation, thank you. I faced this decision personally when picking my Scout rifle and I went with the 308. Not because the 308 is better but it is better for me given my background, education and experience. That written, my next barrel for my Encore will be the 8.6 BLK - as soon as I can buy it - which is a child cartridge of the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Let's get Ryan out there with a slow motion camera and a few blocks of ballistic gel i want to see this happen
Stay tuned 😃
@@VortexNation I'm on the edge of my seat
@@VortexNation please throw 7mm-08 into the mix and shoot gel at 300 yards, PLEASE.
I have them and a few others, 7mm-08 is my baby!
One of the interesting parts of this argument has to to with average accuracy with factory ammo. Terminal performance depends on hitting the right spot. The 6.5 Creedmoor is more recent design than the 308 and especially, a lot of "old faithfuls" like the 30-06 and 270. The Creedmoor was initially designed as a competition cartridge and its chamber has features that make it easier to get a very accurate loading. In particular, the 6.5 CM has.a relatively long section of straight freebore (only 1/2 thousand of an inch larger than the bullet dia) that acts like a guide to align the bullet with the bore and keep it straight as it engraves in the rifling. The 308 also has a section of freebore, but it is shorter and has four times the clearance to allow the bullet to wiggle a little as it engraves. The 30-06, 270 (and even the WSM's) have just a taper into the rifling with nothing to help align the bullet. Although each of these cartridges can be very accurate, ones with long, tight freebore tend to be less picky and more likely to shoot small groups with off-the-shelf ammo
Note: The section of long, tight freebore is not really new, the 1940's Weatherby Magnums have it and virtually all "match chambers" utilized in accuracy competition have used it for decades.
32:42 As a first time rifle purchaser, I selected the 6.5CM for the exact reasons outlined in Ryan’s Story - I just couldn’t articulate it. Now that I have it, my next question is: What’s the next cartridge for Large North American Game. Ryan kinda hinted that it’s the .308
Would love to see a Podcast Named: So you bought a 6.5 Creedmoor, what’s your next purchase for America’s Big Game?
Taking the attributes of the 6.5 CM and scaling up to cover anything you could come across including grizzlies and moose would be super interesting.
Is it the .308, is it the 30-06, is it the .280 AI, is it the .270 Win, is it the 7Rem Mag - I Don’t know Mark! I just don’t know!
308 for do all or if want a step up from 6.5 because recoil ig 6.5 prc
depends on what is required to use them on. amongst many variants.
Even older calibers like the 30.06 with new powders and new projectile technology have become a different performance caliber than what they were originally intended. The 308 the 30.06. the 270 the 243 are going to benefit from new powders and new projectile technology.
They can't compete on high bc bullet options though. Fine for hunting medium game at reasonable ranges but out of their league in long range competition
@@jwalesoutlaw3294 There was a time when hunting ment getting close to your game.
@rikertvonfulton16 yea because technology was a limiting factor. You can still do that, alot of dudes out hunting with a bow or muzzleloader still.
Yes. Do it guys. Sounds great
I’m genuinely surprised at how young Ryan looks, sounds older.
I have, and shoot and reload both. You will find the 6.5 creedmoor will be slightly more accurate -less drop. However, you can get more weight in the 308. So given the same speed on impact it will give more energy on the target. I load to give more speed out the barrel with both, slightly. While the 308 is more easy to find over the counter, the 6.5 Creed has become easy to get too. it depends on if your hunting or target shooting. But mostly it depends on if you practice, get that?
Please explain with some proof other than opinion how the 6.5 will be more accurate. I've shot in most rifle disciplines competitively since 1996 & would love to see the proof so that I may enlighten my fellow competitors