I just started researching this round last week to build a new gun. Already reload the 300 blk and 308. Thought that'd be a good one with what I've seen. How is it to reload?
@@titomish5914 Ok. kid. lol I bet you just started shooting about 5 years ago and grew up watching survivor. I own 3 - 6.5s and 3-708s the 708 is a better hunting cartridge. if you compare 6.5 anything there's only one 6.5 that's King and that's the 6.5 by 300 weatherby Magnum!
I’m still a 308 man. Mainly because I’m heavily invested firearms chambered in the cartridge and reloading for it, but also I’m a traditionalist. I recognize 6.5CM is a capable hunting cartridge; the Swedes have been taking reindeer for decades with the 6.5x55 which is pretty much a ballistic twin of the CM. However, the 308 has more energy, can shoot heavier bullets, and makes a bigger hole. Within 300 yards I’d argue it has more killing power and the superior ballistics of the 6.5CM don’t come into play.
the 6.5 supposedly has the best terminal performance.... ? I would never know. If any animal drops or runs less than 100 yards, it's coin toss, for what cartridge to use. Guys sitting around a table having to come up with something else to sell to stay competitive. Who's to say the 6.5 300 Weatherby is better than the 300 ?
Yes and, as usual with these new cartridges they keep rolling out - they totally lie about the velocity numbers. The 6.5 creedmoor can barely manage 2,600 unless you want to use a 26" barrel.
There is no legal hunting of reindeer in Sweden. There is no wild reindeer in Sweden, they are all owned by the Sami population. Norway has some wild ones. When 6.5 is mentioned in large game hunting, Swedish moose hunting is often mentioned. But they always forget to mention the DOG. Swedish hunting dogs makes the hunting distance a lot shorter, usually under 50 yards. Even without a dog if they are hunting from a hunting tower/stand. The dense forest makes the line of sight 100-150 yards. Sure there are exceptions. But generally it is close. And the 6.5x55 with a 156 grain lead nose bullet has no problem. But for the ranges you have in the US. It is no magic medicine. But it has soft recoil and good accuracy. Cheers from Sweden 🇸🇪
Really enjoyed this new tact your taking. I commented on the other podcast about comparing the 165 to the 147. But let me share some personal experience that led me away from the 6.5. I shot an Axis doe for meat several years ago. Short shot, 50 yards. Behind the shoulder transversing the body cavity. The load was a 129 ABLR Nosler@ over 2900 fps. The bullet went clean through and the doe ran 100 yards with almost no blood. The shot was perfect as it took off the top of the heart and blew through the lungs. Just a year later I broke out the 308 700 and hit a buck at 50 yards, shoulder shot. 165 @ 2700fps. The deer ran 50 yards and collapsed. Much bigger exit wound, a lot more blood and there was absolutely nothing left of the lungs! This led me to the conclusion that a 308 is a superior hunting cartridge at normal ranges. Key word, normal ranges. Longer ranges,the 6.5 reigns supreme.
There's no free lunch with ballistics. The extra penetration of the copper bullets comes at the cost of a smaller diameter wound channel. The bullet only has so much energy so to penetrate further it much cling to the energy. Only way to get a bullet to penetrate further and do the same amount of damage is to change to a cartridge with more energy. My father and I both hunted with copper this year. I shot 2 deer with my 308, 1 at 120 yards and 1 at 250 yards. Both were DRT. I was using the 168mkz from cavity back which expands very large. My father shot 2 deer with his 6.5 creed at 150 yards using the 120ttsx. Both ran 50 yards with no blood trail and tiny exit wounds. He made perfect shots so the bullet still did the job. After hunting season I shot both bullets into gel. At a 100 yards the 120ttsx only expanded to .44". meanwhile the 168mkz expanded to .85". His bullet penetrated much further due to the smaller diameter but mine dumped all its energy, resulting in DRT kills with fist size holes.
Great job guys, love the show. It’s gonna be the 308 for me. Recently read an article about an eastern hunter with tracking dogs used for finding wounded deer. The owner of the dogs mentioned he noticed more work from his dogs since the popularity of the 6.5 creedmoor. He basically mentioned the eastern woods are much thicker than out west making tracking more difficult. and the 30 cal bullets drop deer much faster. It makes since a 165-180 grain 30 cal bullet just hits harder than a 6.5mm 140 grain bullet. You get more of the “boom flop” affect you guys mention. Huge fan you guys rock.
As a long time eastern hunter….. I find this hard to believe……not the results of more work for his dogs becuase of the spike in 6.5 creed moor users…. I find the reasoning to be faulty tho…… I’ve killed many deer most of which with a 270 or a 4570….. but in the last few years have killed several with a 308 and a 6.5 creed…… including so far this year one with a 6.5 then one a day later with a 308….. and I can’t say the deer with the 308 died faster or dumped more blind then the one the day before with the 6.5……. I believe the spike in 6.5 sales did a few bad things tho…..from what I’ve noticed with ppl I know and work with/hunt with everyone and there brother ran out and bout a 6.5 and at the same time bought…. Either the cheapest scope on the shelf( cuze they were on a budget)….. or the highest power yet still cheapest scope they could find….. say like Walmart center point 6x24….. the also bought at the time what the store recommended……1 box of hornady eld m ammo….. took it to the range shot 2 or 3 bullets to sight in and off they went hunting……. Thinking any deer in there sights was dead……. And what really happened was a deer walks out 40 years away in poor light….. and 1 that shitty low budget high power scope wouldn’t allow them to see good at all and pow they take a shitty shot… then on top of the already horrible shot the match bullet they chose basicly exploded not allowing popper penetration to give them any hope at all of a pas thru and finding any good blood trial………. Idk how many times among ppl I hunt with I’ve seen 2 camps of ppl when it comes to the 6.5…… the I bought it cuze it will shoot 1000 yards guys that will never shoot 1000 and there shitty optics choice is horrid…… and then the opposite…. The 6.5 is junk and wounds everything you shoot……. There’s no in between
@@CMR.718 I think it'd be closer than you think. The eld-x expands rapidly and thus might slow down pretty fast not getting the penetration a conventional cup and core might get. Just speculation.
We need to look at the bullet options used in this comparrison and contemplate. The 140gr lead option in 6.5 CM has a much higher SD than a stubby 150gr .308 bullet. Atleast it should've been a 165gr option which would've had roughly the same entry speed as the 140gr and, given the additional weight, penetrate a little deeper than the 150gr. Maybe not equal to 140gr, but much closer most definetly with a much bigger permanent wound cavity because of kinetic energy advantage. Second, he monolithic option for the .308 was on the heavier side than typical options used in .308. If it were a 150gr option, I guarantee it would've penetrated equal or more than the 130gr option in 6.5 CM, because of increase speed / momentum. 165gr mono in .308 takes up significant case capacity and affects its speed. 130gr in 6.5cm would still be doing about 2850 ft/s compared to 2650ft/s from 165gr .308. Re-run this test with the following bullets: Lead options: 6.5 CM = 120gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248) .308 = 165gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248) Mono options. 6.5 CM = 120gr TTSX (SD = 0,248) .308 = 150gr TTSX (SD = 0 226) Then you'll have an apples to apples comparison and possibly a different outcome.
Really neat video. I really liked seeing the penetration test of the two rifles. We know for a fact, based on a long history, that a .308 shooting a 150 grain cup and core bullet is ample white tail/ muley medicine. This proves that the 6.5 is also ample. Even though we have evidence of the 6.5x55 doing quite well as a big game cartridge in Sweden and Norway. we also have a long history of 6.5s being used to great affect in Africa on plains game. But, you are comparing apples and oranges. A 150 grain .308 bullet has a substantially lower sectional density than a 140 grain 6.5mm bullet. I would expect a bullet with a sectional density of .226 to be out performed by a bullet with a sectional density of .287 if we assume similar bullet construction and fairly similar velocities. We can not overstate the importance of a bullet's construction and it's sectional density.
This is kind of old now, but something i noticed that wasn't mentioned is the 6.5 penetrated much deeper than the 308 did before the permanent cavity started. So the 6.5 could possibly go half way thru the animal before it did most of its damage.
When doing which is better you should not use close to same bullet weight. Use the best bullet for the job in each caliber, like a 6.5 143gr vs a 308 178 gr for big game. Under 500 yards a smaller diameter, lighter bullet vs a heavier larger diameter bullet is going to have a much different result, especially if hitting bone.
I love your guys' unscripted interactions. The dialogue in the cartridge comparison video had me rolling my eyes the whole time even though I largely agreed with the results.
It is important to note that some copper alloy bullets are designed to open at lower velocities than others. Not all require 2,000fps, for example. Some are designed for intermediate-power cartridges like the 300 blackout, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel and can open at speeds of 1,500 fps or below. There are even some designed to open at subsonic velocities. As the guys said, it is important to know what your bullet can do and stay within its operational range.
It’s one of the most common, on the shelf, options for 308. Go to any store and you’re likely to find a 150gr cup and core 308 load. That’s not to say that you can’t find a 165, but 150 is by far the most common loading. I think Ryan and Mark described this better in the next comparison of 308 and 30-06, that they tried to not exactly match the competing ammo but use common options available for sale to the average hunter
Have a model 70 classic in .308, have yet to see why I need anything else. the gun far out ranges my eyes. If the target is 500 yards, I stalk a bit closer, that's part of hunting.
Yes, and it is fairly easy to solve for drop. Also, if you think of the ballistics advantage of the 6.5 CM in terms of distance then the picture also changes. It is only about a 30 to 50 yard advantage at ~500 yards and about 100 yard advantage past 1000 yards. Not that big a difference in the changing conditions of the hunter's world.
@@vicdiaz5180 more accurate - highly debatable. Longer range, yes. But I would never use a Barnes TTSX under 2.200 ft/s on impact. So that shrinks the extra effective range of the 6.5 CM quite a bit. If it has to be a 6.5 I would go with the PRC.
I absolutely enjoyed this video with show and tell. Thank you for all the efforts behind the scenes gentlemen. This is why I look every day for new content from your podcasts.
Great job! It would be interesting to see the gains by going to a cartridge firing a similar weight/design projectile at an increased velocity eg, 6.5 prc 270win
the progression of podcast to gel testing to discussing the results and diving deeper.... LOVED IT!!! I've killed WT and Mule deer with both cartridge's and all deer we equally dead. I would love to see you guys do the same test with 3 calibers: 7mm reg mag vs. 300 WSM vs. 300 Win mag... I think that would have some surprising results too. I'm not convinced 300 win mags are the king of the hill like most hunters think they are
Great research boys! As a new shooter and hunter its educational to see how these two calibers match up. With 308 being easier to get and affordability of it, maybe 6.5 will get to that point making it easier choice.
This was immensely helpful in my quest for the one bolt gun for all large game in North America. Try to figure out what would cover everything from coyotes and boars to bears. This gives me more food for thought. Thank you for the great information fellas.
Damn guys, I'm 6 months new to firearms and looking to buy my first rifle. Coming from the movie industry I have to say this content covers every element in a spectacular way. There's a real 'at home with family' feeling from the vortex podcasts. As an outsider looking in I'd say you could probably punt your glass a little more often, I'm in the market for an optic and the choice is endlessly confusing even after watching podcasts. I also walked away from these episodes still not knowing which caliber is best for hunting certain size game. Example, I'm from south africa and clearly the 6.5 is sufficient for springbok but then I hear thing like it's not enough for blue wildebeest and one needs a heavier bullet. Maybe I missed it in the show but ultimately it comes down to bullet choice between the two and they both have similar take down power? Enkosi kakhulu
Hello, my name is Zachary. I have no affiliation with Vortex, but I am a fellow hunter. It sounds like a 308 would be a great first gun to have, mainly because of the versatility in cartridges. Lighter grain weight for smaller animals and bigger grain weight for bigger animals. I recommend checking out some of Vortex's earlier videos explaining scopes for beginner hunters to help figure out which you prefer. I hope this helps and maybe someone with more insight on guns may respond and help with your decision.
At normal hunting ranges .308 will do most things you want. As I understand it a lot of PH in Africa are very happy when clients arrive with a .308. Obviously for big game you're looking at bigger cartridges but for cost, availability, performance, ease of getting ammunition or reloading I would say .308. If you were shooting paper I'd say go for a 6.5 Creedmoor.
Fantastic video and hope to see more just like it. My only suggestion would be to compare bullets with similar sectional densities for a more accurate representation of penetration. A 190 gr. 308 would be comparable to the 140 gr. 6.5 bullet. This would obviously affect the drop and drift as well. The intended use would be the deciding factor for me on which of these cartridges is better. If I was shooting moose at 150 yards I would opt for the 308, pronghorn at 400 yards I would go with the 6.5.
Absolutely. We see this often when compariing different calibers. Testers will often compare bullets of similar weights, which isn't really a true apples to apples comparison. Comparing different calibers with similar sectional densities would give a truer representation of how bullets of different calibers perform compared to one another.
I'd like to volunteer all the shoulder blades and hides from the deer I shoot this year. Please do this test, again, with hide and bone over the ballistics gel!
There are more high bc 30 cal projectiles on the market now, and 308 can push most of those projectiles at respectable velocities, thus kinda narrowing the gap, and in ways beats 6.5cm. I'll stick with 308 👍🏼
In the Beginning of the video you mentioned how wide a deer is, and I want to compare that to where the permanent wound cavity is (the most damage). Even something as big as a Kudu or Gemsbuck, is not that wide. I Frankly could not care less if the bullet passes through or not, as long as the widest part of the wound channel is in the chest cavity
This was very enjoyable. I personally enjoy the longer format vs the first video. I say keep doing both for views but this is the one I am likely to watch. My vote of curiosity is the 300 wsm vs the 6.8 western or 6.5 prc. I bought my WSM back in 07. 300 WSM feels almost left behind on ammo selection since 2021. I don't hunt anything but steel and paper these days an the rifle now weighs 18 pounds (without optic) and most of my ammo fired is reloaded because I can't find the factory stuff I liked. Barrel has about 500ish (depending on how I shoot it) left of "accurate" life. Been pondering the will the next barrel be a different caliber that fits my bolt head and magazines because of factory availability.
Shoot what you love , love what you shoot. Practice makes perfect, been practicing with my 308 for 40 years, guess I’ll keep shooting it. If I had more than 600 meters to shoot I may try something different but I don’t.
🤔 For Future Reference, Mentioning the Barrel Length of Each Gun is Important and Chronographing the Velocities (instead of just mentioning the velocities on the factory loads)! 🤪
what people need to understand is the sectional density on a 150 grain 30 cal is 226, the 140 speer hotcor 6.5 S.D is 287 this is how marketing in cartridge makers have pumped the 6.5 up by using bullets close to the same grain in claiming much better performance. well sure but put the same hot core in a 180 grain bullet in a 30 cal and see how deep it will drive. your sectional density is what's going to drive the bullet for deeper penetration and of course speed. a 120 gr 6.5 is much more comparable to the 150 30 cal and I expect results would be similar.
I’m skeptical of shooting monos for whitetail deer. Very little blood loss. I shot a few whitetails with Hammers (love loading them) and they dropped but noticed very little blood. Good video. Have to keep in mind actual harvesting of game is somewhat different than gel but understand have to use something. Thanks
Great video and info! I think your breezed through one of the most important categories. COST! 308 in most cases is half the cost. If you buy more ammo you can shoot more and become a better shooter!
I'd like to see a .300 WSM vs 7 PRC comparison, and a .270 Winchester vs 7mm 08 comparison. Maybe throw the 30-06 in those, too, as a "control" base to compare them.
I think the 6.5 gets a bad reputation sometimes because some people don’t understand bullets. Some people are shooting a bullet that’s to tough at to long of a range or to soft at to close of range. It really is a fabulous cartridge but it’s not a fast one so bullet selection can be more important sometimes.
I've gone through alot of your guys' videos and I gotta say excellent video fellas. Sad Jimmy didn't get to appear as well. I hope we get to see more of these direct Cartridge comparison tests. Some things I think would help entertain and show the results little better would be, after excavating the bullets, pouring some hard setting wax or resin down the wound channel to be able to take some more exact measurements and show them off in a cool way. Keep up the great work fellas
My state has a minimum caliber requirement for Elk of .277 so that could factor into choice of rifle if you could only have one. Something to consider.
If you are only hunting paper, steel, and deer… 6.5CM is pretty efficient. If you are hunting paper, steel, deer, moose, and elk the 308WIN with 175-180gr bullets is a better choice. The 7mm-08 is arguably the best of both worlds… the sweet spot balance. Of course, having one of each in your safe is the best if you can manage it. 😉👍🏼
After listening to that Hornady Terminal ballistics podcast you guys did, and also looking into Trauma surgeon findings, I find that the most important part of the bullets work is that first 'big' wound cavity. Take time and learn how things die, then you will know that all this knock down, pass through, energy dump stuff makes very little to no difference in killing the animal.
I enjoy the comparison, but not sure the comparison is necessary. As others have pointed out one flies flatter and one hits harder. Choose the one that best fits your needs. If the .308 kicks too much for you drop down to the 7mm/08.
Ryan, you said you would do anything for cartridge science... Would you love to work with... An elk, ballistic flesh, 'dense ballistic gel' for muscle, ballistic gel for organs, Something lighter for lung space, and something printed for skeletal structure.... Or even... Elk. Skeletal, with ballistic gel bodies? And then shoot through the bones, to see what it does to the wound track after bone impact?
The TSX loadings interested me, learned things I have never been able to see. One thing that I would like to see tested is the Federal TSX loading for 30-30, because it seems to not line up with the first thought in my mind talking velocity needed to expand.
I have a Mossberg Predator 7.62x51/308. I reload with IMR4895, 165gr Speer, Federal magnum primers and Federal, Winchester or Remington cases. I downed my first moose at 228 yards. The bullet entered the right side through a rib, took out both lungs, and took out another rib on the way out. My father in law who has always used a 30-06 was very impressed as he thought the 308 was inadequate for moose hunting. The moose stumbled 14 yards and dropped. I will never stop using my 308 unless the shot is over 300 yards, then I use my Parker Hale 300 Win Mag. Stay safe and happy shooting.
I think the argument between the two for hunting is like arguing over a Honda Civic holding up better against a F350 at 65mph or a F450 at 60mph. Shot placement is the most important factor in my opinion.
I see this a lot and it’s really missing the point. The point of gel is to be homogeneous and consistent. If you shot say a femur or any other bone how would you hit it exactly the same every time? The point of gel is to be a homogeneous substitute for comparison sake.
@@K-bob_45 I'm fully aware of this, but unless you only hunt gel blocks you still can't tell which cartridge is better on game. Be interested to see penetration of both cartridges especially through hide which would be very easy to make identical on both gel blocks
@@banana3955 your statement is false. If one projectile penetrates 30” and one penetrates 15” you know which one will penetrate more. The only question is how that actually translates.
@@banana3955a 6.5 projectile has a higher sectional density than a 7.62 projectile assuming similar weight classes. Bullet weigh class, design and construction being the same, the bullet with a higher SD will punch through anything better than a bullet with a lower SD.
So. I'm trying to decide final. Between Tikka T3x selections. Trying to decide between the Supervarmint , the Veil Wideland, the ( Compact Tactical?) Or the TAC A1. I ruled out the Tikka T3x Lite. It seems to me that I definitely love the Tikka action (it being the consideration that has me actually excited to pick up a bolt action at all. Having been trained on the C7A1, I the Canadian Armed Forces, the semi automatic and that scope, with the compensations, I simply never liked the idea of taking my eyes away from the target to manipulate the bolt action. Tikka makes it so easy. Cerakote, has me convinced. Threaded barrel, has me convinced, even if an attached suppressor might not be an option... (can one get an integrated 'suppressed profile barrel? For a Tikka?) And I'm sold on the 6.5 Creedmoor. I've been considering the 20 inch barrels over the 24 inch barrels. From your podcasts. Particularly if a brake or suppressor will add. And I've been considering the benefits of a beautiful red dot for close, and perhaps an optional lpvo? 1-6 or 1-10? Perhaps with the red dot on a t zer0 magnification, a 2-10 or 3-9... I have a desire for a modest or medium data Reticle. From your Reticle podcast, I have some preference there. Is there any advice you can offer, to help me land on one of the Tikka offerings, that's NOT the TAC A1? How would the Supervarmint or the Compact tactical, or the Veil Wideland compare? How much value or function, does that TAC A1 chassis (furniture?) Really bring? Is it my love for the AR, that draws me to the TAC A1? Does the weight saving on the other variants, preferable for mobile hunting (I'm not a spring chicken anymore) But does the TAC A1 extra weight, reduce recoil that much more....
@@thedirtygot9570 even with the European philosophy to go shorter, And the US trending away from super long, outside of a competition platform? If it's purely for hiking, hunting, and I carry my own gear. (I probably overpack my ruck like Mark, and I'm not a big guy. 160 lbs at 6 ft tall. So, lean. I do like a bow, so I'm accustomed to length, so I can probably justify the longer barrel. I'll follow up below with a question.
@@thedirtygot9570 what exactly does a longer barrel do. It seems from my research, that the barrel length, to a point, is similar to draw length with an arrow. In that it gives the shot forces time to act on the projectile. Longer draw (or barrel). Allows longer time to propel the arrow (or Bullet) That seems to lend itself to increased projectile velocity, for what would otherwise be the same arrow(or. Bullet) Same Arrow fired from a 28 inch draw, likely travels faster fired from a 30 inch draw. Same bullet fired from a 20 inch barrel could travel faster from a 24+inch barrel. If so. Moving on. I also saw a thing, which makes me think that shorter barrels, below a point, allow more flash, sight and sound. I don't think I'm allowed a suppress or in British Columbia, so, that won't be a simple. Solution there. If, a longer barrel functionally reduces muzzle flash sound, that could be interesting. I believe I am allowed a a muzzle brake, in British Columbia, Which could help with recoil. 6.5 is rumoured to be relatively modest, in recoil, depending on the platform. But, if it's not a heavy competition rifle, Even if it's not a superlight rifle, I'm told to expect more 'felt recoil', (uncompensated) The brake might help compensate there. I like simple solutions which counterbalance each others cons, leaving you a majority of pros. Ie. If a longer barrel, allows one to harness more of the explosive force of the cartridge, And contains more of that combustion within the reaction chamber and barrel, releasing more of the energy into propulsion, If it releases less powder to flash, and bang, and boom... Producing less noise, If that allows a gentler cartdige like the 6.5 creed, to perform exceptionally, and compete through velocity and ballistics,with a higher powder charge, or a larger projectile, or other less gentle or less accurate alternatives... I like that.
@@thedirtygot9570 does a longer barrel, increase velocity, and thus create a 'flatter trajectory', Through longer range profile? For a more accurate projectile, through the range profile.
increases 30 to 50 fps per inch! also shorter barrels, 22" and under don't shoot the heavier bullets (143ELDX) as well! if I had it to over I would get a 24 to 26 inch! @@jonathanbennison9220
Pincers vs pinchers LOL. If you're of a certain age, you may remember Pat McManus. He once wrote about his expert use of hand tools: the squeezer, the twister, the banger.... Many good laughs over the years.
I don‘t understand the positive connotation of massive penetration depth here. In ethical shots for the average hunter, so at max quartering away slightly inside 300 yards, the Barnes will just come out the other end with significant speed. That means that way less energy was dumped in the target. Even on a perfect lung shot this will lead to longer distances until the game drops, which in low light or rough terrain might make the difference between finding the game or not. Sure if you are a perfect shot, you always hit the high shoulder immobilizing the game and if this is your one chance to get that ticket game, the massive penetration depth of the Barnes is a plus. And if you are not as perfect as you thought there is at least more likely a blood trail to follow 😂
Gel penetration isn't 1 for 1. Meat is tougher. You can't just stick tweezers into an elk. Plus hide, plus bone, and you'll find 30 inches of gel becomes 15 inches of animal pretty quick
@@mattcomchoc2957 hence me talking about a shot behind the shoulder. There is empty space and lungs are less dense than gel. Again, as soon as the shot placement strategy is considering any real structure, I see the benefits of the copper monos.
Used an M110 in 7.62x51 in service, it's a very solid performer. After service I purchased the SW Performance Center MP10 in 6.5 Creed. 0 to 500M they are essentially equal. After 500M I'll take 6.5 on game (whitetail and smaller) or targets. Love a .308 but nowadays I shoot 5.56mm, 9mm, and 6.5 Creedmoor, don't need or want anything else
To add more data to the equation. Hornady 150gr Inter Bond 308 gave a complete pass through on a 1400+ lb American Bison under 100 yards. The was a rib shot heart/double lung hit.
My thoughts on why the solid metal bullets get better penetration vs their cup and core counterparts. The distinct four petal design of the mono bullets act more like a four blade broad head. Less surface area to slow them down as fast. Which leads to that propeller type effect in the gel that they are known for. And over all better penetration. After my youngest used my AR with a cup and core on her first deer. I decided that we either needed to use a copper bullet or a bigger caliber. The cup and core killed the whitetail, but didn't leave an exit. Making blood tracking impossible for me. Thankfully a body hunt with a neighbors help, recovered the little buck. I think the 70gr Barnes TSX might give a better result. Haven't had on game experience with it yet, to confirm.
Great video guys. Despite the results, I just feel more confident having a .30 cal bullet for deer. Not saying the 6.5 isn’t a good choice, but the .308 has more than proven itself.
You should have chosen the projectiles that were similar in SD as you used penetration as a key metric. Higher SD projectiles in any caliber have thicker jackets and penetrate better- generally. The penetration differences go away with copper, then it is the velocity at impact and bore/frontal area consideration. You should repeat the test with a better projectile selection to remove some of the variables. Normalise for impact velocity as a minimum with similar projectile construction and SD.
I would be very curious to see how the 7mm-08 stacks I to this. Is that cartridge ignored on the basis that there is not enough factory support options? Why did that cartridge not become popular to begin with?
I'm confused now. I have believed; - 6.5 CM for long distance paper - 7mm RM for long distance meat. - 308/30-06 for big critters close-in. - 375 HH for fangs and claws.
Don't forget barrel twist rates. Early M16 couldn't stabilze heavy bullets. Same goes for some 270, 7 mags, etc... 338 Spectre twist for 225 - 250 bullet weights use 1:3 twist. I always like 30-06 range wt. Low 100s to low 200s
Seriously, no joke, should have included .223 Rem. to this discussion with a varmint load, a cup/core, and a monolithic copper load out of a AR/bolt gun. Would be interesting to see how similar or dissimilar the results would've been.
The 6.5Cm is a more modern and better all around cartridge than the 308. Much like 243 or 270 was to the 30-30 back in the day. This is coming from a 308 user with no plans to change.
Well done! Have been using the .308 for many many years, however have just started using the 6.5 recently due to having eye surgery. Love both. With that said I also have a love affair with the .260 remington. recently built one from a Savage model 11 and love how it shoots. Would love to hear your thoughts on the .260.
Ryan. Is it true? Is 6.5 the newest Old Kid on the block (circa 1890?) 6.5 caliber predecessor to the 6.5 CREEDMORE.... Circa 1890 (Scandinavian Europe) European hunting for over 100 years with a 6.5? New to the US market, finally trendy as of, you said 2007 for CREEDMORE?
57:14 If the 65 creed more, won't have the same terminal impact, the same potential, out beyond 300 yards, 500 yards, or 700 years, whatever... Fairly simple to carry both rounds? Perhaps a second magizine, preloaded with the 'long range' round? The, I expect to meet my targets inside 300 yards, however, If the perfect target appears, and the shot is within my confidence...out at 500 or 700 yards. And I do shoot, and I do hit. I can simply bring a long range option for that scenario? And either running the action to load a long range round, clearing one close range copper, if necessary Or swapping magazine, to load the long range ballistic selection... Seems viable?
The 6.5 is certainly more efficient, and for long range shooting its a no brainer. But for hunting I would prefer the .308. It seems the larger area and higher bullet weight will offer more forgiveness on a less than ideal shot. The smaller and lighter the bullet, the more you have to rely on good shot placement. For an extreme example, I'd rather shoot a moose with a .50 cal rather than a .22lr. I think the idea of "no replacement for displacement" still applies, and while elk have been taken with the 6.5, I don't think it would be most hunters first choice. When it comes to LR, 6mm and 6.5 take the cake, but when it comes to hunting 30 cal is still king.
This is why I love the 7mm-08 it sits right between the two...
7mm08 never gets the love it deserves. Should be more popular
@@cbrochu22it’s not popular because it isn’t that good number speak for themselves
That’s for sure
I just started researching this round last week to build a new gun. Already reload the 300 blk and 308. Thought that'd be a good one with what I've seen. How is it to reload?
@@titomish5914 Ok. kid. lol I bet you just started shooting about 5 years ago and grew up watching survivor. I own 3 - 6.5s and 3-708s the 708 is a better hunting cartridge. if you compare 6.5 anything there's only one 6.5 that's King and that's the 6.5 by 300 weatherby Magnum!
I’m still a 308 man. Mainly because I’m heavily invested firearms chambered in the cartridge and reloading for it, but also I’m a traditionalist. I recognize 6.5CM is a capable hunting cartridge; the Swedes have been taking reindeer for decades with the 6.5x55 which is pretty much a ballistic twin of the CM. However, the 308 has more energy, can shoot heavier bullets, and makes a bigger hole. Within 300 yards I’d argue it has more killing power and the superior ballistics of the 6.5CM don’t come into play.
the 6.5 supposedly has the best terminal performance.... ? I would never know. If any animal drops or runs less than 100 yards, it's coin toss, for what cartridge to use. Guys sitting around a table having to come up with something else to sell to stay competitive. Who's to say the 6.5 300 Weatherby is better than the 300 ?
Yes and, as usual with these new cartridges they keep rolling out - they totally lie about the velocity numbers. The 6.5 creedmoor can barely manage 2,600 unless you want to use a 26" barrel.
There is no legal hunting of reindeer in Sweden. There is no wild reindeer in Sweden, they are all owned by the Sami population. Norway has some wild ones.
When 6.5 is mentioned in large game hunting, Swedish moose hunting is often mentioned.
But they always forget to mention the DOG. Swedish hunting dogs makes the hunting distance a lot shorter, usually under 50 yards.
Even without a dog if they are hunting from a hunting tower/stand. The dense forest makes the line of sight 100-150 yards. Sure there are exceptions. But generally it is close.
And the 6.5x55 with a 156 grain lead nose bullet has no problem.
But for the ranges you have in the US. It is no magic medicine.
But it has soft recoil and good accuracy.
Cheers from Sweden 🇸🇪
Really enjoyed this new tact your taking. I commented on the other podcast about comparing the 165 to the 147. But let me share some personal experience that led me away from the 6.5. I shot an Axis doe for meat several years ago. Short shot, 50 yards. Behind the shoulder transversing the body cavity. The load was a 129 ABLR Nosler@ over 2900 fps. The bullet went clean through and the doe ran 100 yards with almost no blood. The shot was perfect as it took off the top of the heart and blew through the lungs. Just a year later I broke out the 308 700 and hit a buck at 50 yards, shoulder shot. 165 @ 2700fps. The deer ran 50 yards and collapsed. Much bigger exit wound, a lot more blood and there was absolutely nothing left of the lungs! This led me to the conclusion that a 308 is a superior hunting cartridge at normal ranges. Key word, normal ranges. Longer ranges,the 6.5 reigns supreme.
There's no free lunch with ballistics. The extra penetration of the copper bullets comes at the cost of a smaller diameter wound channel. The bullet only has so much energy so to penetrate further it much cling to the energy. Only way to get a bullet to penetrate further and do the same amount of damage is to change to a cartridge with more energy. My father and I both hunted with copper this year. I shot 2 deer with my 308, 1 at 120 yards and 1 at 250 yards. Both were DRT. I was using the 168mkz from cavity back which expands very large. My father shot 2 deer with his 6.5 creed at 150 yards using the 120ttsx. Both ran 50 yards with no blood trail and tiny exit wounds. He made perfect shots so the bullet still did the job. After hunting season I shot both bullets into gel. At a 100 yards the 120ttsx only expanded to .44". meanwhile the 168mkz expanded to .85". His bullet penetrated much further due to the smaller diameter but mine dumped all its energy, resulting in DRT kills with fist size holes.
Great job guys, love the show. It’s gonna be the 308 for me. Recently read an article about an eastern hunter with tracking dogs used for finding wounded deer. The owner of the dogs mentioned he noticed more work from his dogs since the popularity of the 6.5 creedmoor. He basically mentioned the eastern woods are much thicker than out west making tracking more difficult. and the 30 cal bullets drop deer much faster. It makes since a 165-180 grain 30 cal bullet just hits harder than a 6.5mm 140 grain bullet. You get more of the “boom flop” affect you guys mention. Huge fan you guys rock.
As a long time eastern hunter….. I find this hard to believe……not the results of more work for his dogs becuase of the spike in 6.5 creed moor users…. I find the reasoning to be faulty tho…… I’ve killed many deer most of which with a 270 or a 4570….. but in the last few years have killed several with a 308 and a 6.5 creed…… including so far this year one with a 6.5 then one a day later with a 308….. and I can’t say the deer with the 308 died faster or dumped more blind then the one the day before with the 6.5……. I believe the spike in 6.5 sales did a few bad things tho…..from what I’ve noticed with ppl I know and work with/hunt with everyone and there brother ran out and bout a 6.5 and at the same time bought…. Either the cheapest scope on the shelf( cuze they were on a budget)….. or the highest power yet still cheapest scope they could find….. say like Walmart center point 6x24….. the also bought at the time what the store recommended……1 box of hornady eld m ammo….. took it to the range shot 2 or 3 bullets to sight in and off they went hunting……. Thinking any deer in there sights was dead……. And what really happened was a deer walks out 40 years away in poor light….. and 1 that shitty low budget high power scope wouldn’t allow them to see good at all and pow they take a shitty shot… then on top of the already horrible shot the match bullet they chose basicly exploded not allowing popper penetration to give them any hope at all of a pas thru and finding any good blood trial………. Idk how many times among ppl I hunt with I’ve seen 2 camps of ppl when it comes to the 6.5…… the I bought it cuze it will shoot 1000 yards guys that will never shoot 1000 and there shitty optics choice is horrid…… and then the opposite…. The 6.5 is junk and wounds everything you shoot……. There’s no in between
This is cool. How about the 270 Winchester vs the 6.5 PRC and to make Mark smile how about 300 WSM vs the 300 PRC.
300 PRC would blow the 300 WSM out of the water
The 270 is an outstanding round. 😁😁😁
Let’s go! Great Idea
270 vs 6.5 PRC please!!
@@CMR.718 I think it'd be closer than you think. The eld-x expands rapidly and thus might slow down pretty fast not getting the penetration a conventional cup and core might get. Just speculation.
We need to look at the bullet options used in this comparrison and contemplate. The 140gr lead option in 6.5 CM has a much higher SD than a stubby 150gr .308 bullet. Atleast it should've been a 165gr option which would've had roughly the same entry speed as the 140gr and, given the additional weight, penetrate a little deeper than the 150gr. Maybe not equal to 140gr, but much closer most definetly with a much bigger permanent wound cavity because of kinetic energy advantage.
Second, he monolithic option for the .308 was on the heavier side than typical options used in .308. If it were a 150gr option, I guarantee it would've penetrated equal or more than the 130gr option in 6.5 CM, because of increase speed / momentum. 165gr mono in .308 takes up significant case capacity and affects its speed. 130gr in 6.5cm would still be doing about 2850 ft/s compared to 2650ft/s from 165gr .308.
Re-run this test with the following bullets:
Lead options:
6.5 CM = 120gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248)
.308 = 165gr Core Lokt (SD = 0,248)
Mono options.
6.5 CM = 120gr TTSX (SD = 0,248)
.308 = 150gr TTSX (SD = 0 226)
Then you'll have an apples to apples comparison and possibly a different outcome.
Could shoulda would've. Would be interesting but they ant going to re test it...
100%
SD needs to be as equal as possible for a comparison. This comparison is almost useless, learned unfortunatelly not much...
Ruan brings up good points. I think the bullet choices for 308 Winchester gave advantages to 6.5 Creedmoor.
Wish they would compare apples to apples
Wait till bro finds out how fast you can push a 130 grain 308, it doesn't have the Bc or sd of the 130 6.5 but at 3200 it doesn't really matter
Really neat video. I really liked seeing the penetration test of the two rifles. We know for a fact, based on a long history, that a .308 shooting a 150 grain cup and core bullet is ample white tail/ muley medicine. This proves that the 6.5 is also ample. Even though we have evidence of the 6.5x55 doing quite well as a big game cartridge in Sweden and Norway. we also have a long history of 6.5s being used to great affect in Africa on plains game.
But, you are comparing apples and oranges. A 150 grain .308 bullet has a substantially lower sectional density than a 140 grain 6.5mm bullet. I would expect a bullet with a sectional density of .226 to be out performed by a bullet with a sectional density of .287 if we assume similar bullet construction and fairly similar velocities. We can not overstate the importance of a bullet's construction and it's sectional density.
This is kind of old now, but something i noticed that wasn't mentioned is the 6.5 penetrated much deeper than the 308 did before the permanent cavity started. So the 6.5 could possibly go half way thru the animal before it did most of its damage.
When doing which is better you should not use close to same bullet weight. Use the best bullet for the job in each caliber, like a 6.5 143gr vs a 308 178 gr for big game. Under 500 yards a smaller diameter, lighter bullet vs a heavier larger diameter bullet is going to have a much different result, especially if hitting bone.
Hands down the best channel on TH-cam! Thank you for all the $ and efforts put into these videos. You guys have my dream job.
I love your guys' unscripted interactions. The dialogue in the cartridge comparison video had me rolling my eyes the whole time even though I largely agreed with the results.
It is important to note that some copper alloy bullets are designed to open at lower velocities than others. Not all require 2,000fps, for example. Some are designed for intermediate-power cartridges like the 300 blackout, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel and can open at speeds of 1,500 fps or below. There are even some designed to open at subsonic velocities. As the guys said, it is important to know what your bullet can do and stay within its operational range.
I think the better comparison in the cup and core would have had the 308 in 165ish. The 308 was light at 150 and it with more velocity in theory.
I agree 100%.
I agree, that's a pretty light load for 308.
It’s one of the most common, on the shelf, options for 308. Go to any store and you’re likely to find a 150gr cup and core 308 load. That’s not to say that you can’t find a 165, but 150 is by far the most common loading. I think Ryan and Mark described this better in the next comparison of 308 and 30-06, that they tried to not exactly match the competing ammo but use common options available for sale to the average hunter
Have a model 70 classic in .308, have yet to see why I need anything else. the gun far out ranges my eyes. If the target is 500 yards, I stalk a bit closer, that's part of hunting.
What a joy on a Monday morning! 👍 well done gents.
Inside 300 - 308 Win all day long. More energy on target and 27% more frontal area, with negligible difference in drop.
Yes, and it is fairly easy to solve for drop. Also, if you think of the ballistics advantage of the 6.5 CM in terms of distance then the picture also changes. It is only about a 30 to 50 yard advantage at ~500 yards and about 100 yard advantage past 1000 yards. Not that big a difference in the changing conditions of the hunter's world.
True but if you are trying to hit further and more accurate 6.5 is the round to have.
@@vincentwood7036 wind drift might be the more relevant parameter. As you say drop is easy to solve for nowadays with rangefinders and apps
@@vicdiaz5180 more accurate - highly debatable. Longer range, yes. But I would never use a Barnes TTSX under 2.200 ft/s on impact. So that shrinks the extra effective range of the 6.5 CM quite a bit. If it has to be a 6.5 I would go with the PRC.
Drop at a 1000 yards is a big difference actually. 7mm-08 at a 1000 is a 36" difference vs the 308
I absolutely enjoyed this video with show and tell. Thank you for all the efforts behind the scenes gentlemen. This is why I look every day for new content from your podcasts.
You guys did a great job with this.. good info. I appreciate your experience
Great job! It would be interesting to see the gains by going to a cartridge firing a similar weight/design projectile at an increased velocity eg, 6.5 prc 270win
What about comparing it to the 260 rem ?
the progression of podcast to gel testing to discussing the results and diving deeper.... LOVED IT!!! I've killed WT and Mule deer with both cartridge's and all deer we equally dead. I would love to see you guys do the same test with 3 calibers: 7mm reg mag vs. 300 WSM vs. 300 Win mag... I think that would have some surprising results too. I'm not convinced 300 win mags are the king of the hill like most hunters think they are
Great research boys! As a new shooter and hunter its educational to see how these two calibers match up. With 308 being easier to get and affordability of it, maybe 6.5 will get to that point making it easier choice.
Excellent video, love seeing this type of testing. And the dialog was waaaay better than the scripted style of the previous 6.5 vs 308 video
6.5PRC vs 270Win. Needs to be tested next. The numbers are so close together on them both. It needs to be tested. New vs Old again.....
This was immensely helpful in my quest for the one bolt gun for all large game in North America. Try to figure out what would cover everything from coyotes and boars to bears. This gives me more food for thought. Thank you for the great information fellas.
Damn guys, I'm 6 months new to firearms and looking to buy my first rifle. Coming from the movie industry I have to say this content covers every element in a spectacular way. There's a real 'at home with family' feeling from the vortex podcasts. As an outsider looking in I'd say you could probably punt your glass a little more often, I'm in the market for an optic and the choice is endlessly confusing even after watching podcasts. I also walked away from these episodes still not knowing which caliber is best for hunting certain size game. Example, I'm from south africa and clearly the 6.5 is sufficient for springbok but then I hear thing like it's not enough for blue wildebeest and one needs a heavier bullet. Maybe I missed it in the show but ultimately it comes down to bullet choice between the two and they both have similar take down power? Enkosi kakhulu
Hello, my name is Zachary. I have no affiliation with Vortex, but I am a fellow hunter. It sounds like a 308 would be a great first gun to have, mainly because of the versatility in cartridges. Lighter grain weight for smaller animals and bigger grain weight for bigger animals. I recommend checking out some of Vortex's earlier videos explaining scopes for beginner hunters to help figure out which you prefer. I hope this helps and maybe someone with more insight on guns may respond and help with your decision.
At normal hunting ranges .308 will do most things you want. As I understand it a lot of PH in Africa are very happy when clients arrive with a .308. Obviously for big game you're looking at bigger cartridges but for cost, availability, performance, ease of getting ammunition or reloading I would say .308. If you were shooting paper I'd say go for a 6.5 Creedmoor.
I look forward to seeing more comparisons like this one.
Fantastic video and hope to see more just like it. My only suggestion would be to compare bullets with similar sectional densities for a more accurate representation of penetration. A 190 gr. 308 would be comparable to the 140 gr. 6.5 bullet. This would obviously affect the drop and drift as well. The intended use would be the deciding factor for me on which of these cartridges is better. If I was shooting moose at 150 yards I would opt for the 308, pronghorn at 400 yards I would go with the 6.5.
Absolutely. We see this often when compariing different calibers. Testers will often compare bullets of similar weights, which isn't really a true apples to apples comparison. Comparing different calibers with similar sectional densities would give a truer representation of how bullets of different calibers perform compared to one another.
you gave the advantage to the 6.5. Now, you have to do one where you use the bullets that have a similar bc and SD
They don’t exist in the 308
@flynnryder7798 sure they do. I said similar not exact
I'd like to volunteer all the shoulder blades and hides from the deer I shoot this year. Please do this test, again, with hide and bone over the ballistics gel!
There are more high bc 30 cal projectiles on the market now, and 308 can push most of those projectiles at respectable velocities, thus kinda narrowing the gap, and in ways beats 6.5cm. I'll stick with 308 👍🏼
Gotta love these podcasts. Well done boys.
In the Beginning of the video you mentioned how wide a deer is, and I want to compare that to where the permanent wound cavity is (the most damage).
Even something as big as a Kudu or Gemsbuck, is not that wide. I Frankly could not care less if the bullet passes through or not, as long as the widest part of the wound channel is in the chest cavity
I'm interested in PRC family of cartridges along with the Creedmoor. I enjoy the newer close tolerance chamber offerings.
Was hoping for a bonus feature of the fabled .308 130 gr Barnes load!
Great new format with cartridge talk.
This was very enjoyable. I personally enjoy the longer format vs the first video. I say keep doing both for views but this is the one I am likely to watch. My vote of curiosity is the 300 wsm vs the 6.8 western or 6.5 prc. I bought my WSM back in 07. 300 WSM feels almost left behind on ammo selection since 2021. I don't hunt anything but steel and paper these days an the rifle now weighs 18 pounds (without optic) and most of my ammo fired is reloaded because I can't find the factory stuff I liked. Barrel has about 500ish (depending on how I shoot it) left of "accurate" life. Been pondering the will the next barrel be a different caliber that fits my bolt head and magazines because of factory availability.
Shoot what you love , love what you shoot. Practice makes perfect, been practicing with my 308 for 40 years, guess I’ll keep shooting it. If I had more than 600 meters to shoot I may try something different but I don’t.
Up next .270 vs 6.5 creedmoor!
Absolutely love these podcasts!!!
🤔 For Future Reference, Mentioning the Barrel Length of Each Gun is Important and Chronographing the Velocities (instead of just mentioning the velocities on the factory loads)! 🤪
what people need to understand is the sectional density on a 150 grain 30 cal is 226, the 140 speer hotcor 6.5 S.D is 287
this is how marketing in cartridge makers have pumped the 6.5 up by using bullets close to the same grain in claiming much better performance. well sure but put the same hot core in a 180 grain bullet in a 30 cal and see how deep it will drive.
your sectional density is what's going to drive the bullet for deeper penetration and of course speed. a 120 gr 6.5 is much more comparable to the 150 30 cal and I expect results would be similar.
I would love to see you place a flat hard plate 6 or 8 inches inside the gel as it’s formed to simulate bone.
I’m skeptical of shooting monos for whitetail deer. Very little blood loss. I shot a few whitetails with Hammers (love loading them) and they dropped but noticed very little blood. Good video. Have to keep in mind actual harvesting of game is somewhat different than gel but understand have to use something. Thanks
How do guys from Vortex get bullets out of ballistics gel?
With a Docter cut
Inside 500 yard dose it really matter. Most game is shot inside 200 yards.
What is the minimum amount of velocity and energy recommended for copper bullets to expand effectively?
Great video and info! I think your breezed through one of the most important categories. COST! 308 in most cases is half the cost. If you buy more ammo you can shoot more and become a better shooter!
In the 308WIN vs 6.5CM debate, the clear winner is 7mm-08REM. Especially with the 145gr Barnes LRXBT bullet.
No one is talking about the 7-08 💩
@@titomish5914except us.
I never like it for some reason. But it works damn well. I'd probably just go 308
I'd like to see a .300 WSM vs 7 PRC comparison, and a .270 Winchester vs 7mm 08 comparison. Maybe throw the 30-06 in those, too, as a "control" base to compare them.
I think the 6.5 gets a bad reputation sometimes because some people don’t understand bullets. Some people are shooting a bullet that’s to tough at to long of a range or to soft at to close of range. It really is a fabulous cartridge but it’s not a fast one so bullet selection can be more important sometimes.
Sometimes I wonder how many newbies are trying to hunt 6.5 with target bullets and then get surprised with bad results.
I've gone through alot of your guys' videos and I gotta say excellent video fellas. Sad Jimmy didn't get to appear as well. I hope we get to see more of these direct Cartridge comparison tests. Some things I think would help entertain and show the results little better would be, after excavating the bullets, pouring some hard setting wax or resin down the wound channel to be able to take some more exact measurements and show them off in a cool way. Keep up the great work fellas
My state has a minimum caliber requirement for Elk of .277 so that could factor into choice of rifle if you could only have one. Something to consider.
Great presentation and very informative. Looking forward to more of these.
Amazing video guys! Problem solved I bougth both, 308 for me and 6.5 for my girlfriend. Keep doing!
Imagine using the 130gn barnes in the 308. That was a heavy copper load for a 308.
If you are only hunting paper, steel, and deer… 6.5CM is pretty efficient.
If you are hunting paper, steel, deer, moose, and elk the 308WIN with 175-180gr bullets is a better choice. The 7mm-08 is arguably the best of both worlds… the sweet spot balance. Of course, having one of each in your safe is the best if you can manage it. 😉👍🏼
What an absolute great series
After listening to that Hornady Terminal ballistics podcast you guys did, and also looking into Trauma surgeon findings, I find that the most important part of the bullets work is that first 'big' wound cavity.
Take time and learn how things die, then you will know that all this knock down, pass through, energy dump stuff makes very little to no difference in killing the animal.
Which is exactly why I'm a shoulder shooter. I'm looking to inflict the maximum damage to an animals structure when shot.
I enjoy the comparison, but not sure the comparison is necessary. As others have pointed out one flies flatter and one hits harder. Choose the one that best fits your needs. If the .308 kicks too much for you drop down to the 7mm/08.
This is exactly 💯 right. This is what i was talking about yesterday. Good job guys.
Ryan, you said you would do anything for cartridge science...
Would you love to work with...
An elk, ballistic flesh, 'dense ballistic gel' for muscle, ballistic gel for organs,
Something lighter for lung space, and something printed for skeletal structure....
Or even...
Elk. Skeletal, with ballistic gel bodies?
And then shoot through the bones, to see what it does to the wound track after bone impact?
When are you going to talk about the Nosler Partition for North American big game hunting and even whitetails?
“I’ve heard you make better slapping sounds”
👀
7mm-08 for hunting 500y and in.
The TSX loadings interested me, learned things I have never been able to see. One thing that I would like to see tested is the Federal TSX loading for 30-30, because it seems to not line up with the first thought in my mind talking velocity needed to expand.
I have a Mossberg Predator 7.62x51/308. I reload with IMR4895, 165gr Speer, Federal magnum primers and Federal, Winchester or Remington cases. I downed my first moose at 228 yards. The bullet entered the right side through a rib, took out both lungs, and took out another rib on the way out. My father in law who has always used a 30-06 was very impressed as he thought the 308 was inadequate for moose hunting. The moose stumbled 14 yards and dropped. I will never stop using my 308 unless the shot is over 300 yards, then I use my Parker Hale 300 Win Mag. Stay safe and happy shooting.
I think the argument between the two for hunting is like arguing over a Honda Civic holding up better against a F350 at 65mph or a F450 at 60mph. Shot placement is the most important factor in my opinion.
Such a great video guys! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and all the information.
I'd like to see this comparing cartridge in the same caliber, like 45-70 vs 450 bushmaster, 7mm-08 vs 7mm Rem Mag, or 300 Win Mag vs 300 Weatherby
Would of been awesome to see what each round would do to the gel block though a piece of hide or even bones
I see this a lot and it’s really missing the point. The point of gel is to be homogeneous and consistent. If you shot say a femur or any other bone how would you hit it exactly the same every time? The point of gel is to be a homogeneous substitute for comparison sake.
Paul Harrell meat target style.
@@K-bob_45 I'm fully aware of this, but unless you only hunt gel blocks you still can't tell which cartridge is better on game. Be interested to see penetration of both cartridges especially through hide which would be very easy to make identical on both gel blocks
@@banana3955 your statement is false. If one projectile penetrates 30” and one penetrates 15” you know which one will penetrate more. The only question is how that actually translates.
@@banana3955a 6.5 projectile has a higher sectional density than a 7.62 projectile assuming similar weight classes. Bullet weigh class, design and construction being the same, the bullet with a higher SD will punch through anything better than a bullet with a lower SD.
So.
I'm trying to decide final. Between Tikka T3x selections.
Trying to decide between the Supervarmint , the Veil Wideland, the ( Compact Tactical?)
Or the TAC A1.
I ruled out the Tikka T3x Lite.
It seems to me that I definitely love the Tikka action (it being the consideration that has me actually excited to pick up a bolt action at all. Having been trained on the C7A1, I the Canadian Armed Forces, the semi automatic and that scope, with the compensations, I simply never liked the idea of taking my eyes away from the target to manipulate the bolt action.
Tikka makes it so easy.
Cerakote, has me convinced.
Threaded barrel, has me convinced, even if an attached suppressor might not be an option... (can one get an integrated 'suppressed profile barrel? For a Tikka?)
And I'm sold on the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I've been considering the 20 inch barrels over the 24 inch barrels.
From your podcasts.
Particularly if a brake or suppressor will add.
And I've been considering the benefits of a beautiful red dot for close, and perhaps an optional lpvo? 1-6 or 1-10? Perhaps with the red dot on a t zer0 magnification, a 2-10 or 3-9...
I have a desire for a modest or medium data Reticle.
From your Reticle podcast, I have some preference there.
Is there any advice you can offer, to help me land on one of the Tikka offerings, that's NOT the TAC A1?
How would the Supervarmint or the Compact tactical, or the Veil Wideland compare?
How much value or function, does that TAC A1 chassis (furniture?)
Really bring?
Is it my love for the AR, that draws me to the TAC A1?
Does the weight saving on the other variants, preferable for mobile hunting (I'm not a spring chicken anymore)
But does the TAC A1 extra weight, reduce recoil that much more....
The creedmoor is affected more by barrel length than the 308! Get the longest barrel length you can get!
@@thedirtygot9570 even with the European philosophy to go shorter,
And the US trending away from super long, outside of a competition platform?
If it's purely for hiking, hunting, and I carry my own gear. (I probably overpack my ruck like Mark, and I'm not a big guy. 160 lbs at 6 ft tall. So, lean. I do like a bow, so I'm accustomed to length, so I can probably justify the longer barrel.
I'll follow up below with a question.
@@thedirtygot9570 what exactly does a longer barrel do.
It seems from my research, that the barrel length, to a point, is similar to draw length with an arrow.
In that it gives the shot forces time to act on the projectile.
Longer draw (or barrel). Allows longer time to propel the arrow (or Bullet)
That seems to lend itself to increased projectile velocity, for what would otherwise be the same arrow(or. Bullet)
Same Arrow fired from a 28 inch draw, likely travels faster fired from a 30 inch draw.
Same bullet fired from a 20 inch barrel could travel faster from a 24+inch barrel.
If so. Moving on.
I also saw a thing, which makes me think that shorter barrels, below a point, allow more flash, sight and sound.
I don't think I'm allowed a suppress or in British Columbia, so, that won't be a simple. Solution there.
If, a longer barrel functionally reduces muzzle flash sound, that could be interesting.
I believe I am allowed a a muzzle brake, in British Columbia,
Which could help with recoil.
6.5 is rumoured to be relatively modest, in recoil, depending on the platform.
But, if it's not a heavy competition rifle,
Even if it's not a superlight rifle,
I'm told to expect more 'felt recoil', (uncompensated)
The brake might help compensate there.
I like simple solutions which counterbalance each others cons, leaving you a majority of pros.
Ie. If a longer barrel, allows one to harness more of the explosive force of the cartridge,
And contains more of that combustion within the reaction chamber and barrel, releasing more of the energy into propulsion,
If it releases less powder to flash, and bang, and boom...
Producing less noise,
If that allows a gentler cartdige like the 6.5 creed, to perform exceptionally, and compete through velocity and ballistics,with a higher powder charge, or a larger projectile, or other less gentle or less accurate alternatives...
I like that.
@@thedirtygot9570 does a longer barrel, increase velocity,
and thus create a 'flatter trajectory',
Through longer range profile?
For a more accurate projectile, through the range profile.
increases 30 to 50 fps per inch! also shorter barrels, 22" and under don't shoot the heavier bullets (143ELDX) as well! if I had it to over I would get a 24 to 26 inch!
@@jonathanbennison9220
Pincers vs pinchers LOL. If you're of a certain age, you may remember Pat McManus. He once wrote about his expert use of hand tools: the squeezer, the twister, the banger.... Many good laughs over the years.
Very informative you guys are funny, entertaining as you fire back and forth
I don‘t understand the positive connotation of massive penetration depth here. In ethical shots for the average hunter, so at max quartering away slightly inside 300 yards, the Barnes will just come out the other end with significant speed. That means that way less energy was dumped in the target. Even on a perfect lung shot this will lead to longer distances until the game drops, which in low light or rough terrain might make the difference between finding the game or not.
Sure if you are a perfect shot, you always hit the high shoulder immobilizing the game and if this is your one chance to get that ticket game, the massive penetration depth of the Barnes is a plus. And if you are not as perfect as you thought there is at least more likely a blood trail to follow 😂
Gel penetration isn't 1 for 1. Meat is tougher. You can't just stick tweezers into an elk. Plus hide, plus bone, and you'll find 30 inches of gel becomes 15 inches of animal pretty quick
@@mattcomchoc2957 hence me talking about a shot behind the shoulder. There is empty space and lungs are less dense than gel.
Again, as soon as the shot placement strategy is considering any real structure, I see the benefits of the copper monos.
Used an M110 in 7.62x51 in service, it's a very solid performer. After service I purchased the SW Performance Center MP10 in 6.5 Creed. 0 to 500M they are essentially equal. After 500M I'll take 6.5 on game (whitetail and smaller) or targets. Love a .308 but nowadays I shoot 5.56mm, 9mm, and 6.5 Creedmoor, don't need or want anything else
I really enjoy yalls cartridges talks and Ryan's perspective on these things.
PS. It's. 300 W. S. M. Not wissum.
They Kno , it's an inside joke between them
@johncollins1958 I am aware lol just playing into it.
Great job. Love your podcasts
To add more data to the equation. Hornady 150gr Inter Bond 308 gave a complete pass through on a 1400+ lb American Bison under 100 yards. The was a rib shot heart/double lung hit.
My thoughts on why the solid metal bullets get better penetration vs their cup and core counterparts. The distinct four petal design of the mono bullets act more like a four blade broad head. Less surface area to slow them down as fast. Which leads to that propeller type effect in the gel that they are known for. And over all better penetration.
After my youngest used my AR with a cup and core on her first deer. I decided that we either needed to use a copper bullet or a bigger caliber. The cup and core killed the whitetail, but didn't leave an exit. Making blood tracking impossible for me. Thankfully a body hunt with a neighbors help, recovered the little buck. I think the 70gr Barnes TSX might give a better result. Haven't had on game experience with it yet, to confirm.
Great video guys. Despite the results, I just feel more confident having a .30 cal bullet for deer. Not saying the 6.5 isn’t a good choice, but the .308 has more than proven itself.
You should have chosen the projectiles that were similar in SD as you used penetration as a key metric. Higher SD projectiles in any caliber have thicker jackets and penetrate better- generally. The penetration differences go away with copper, then it is the velocity at impact and bore/frontal area consideration. You should repeat the test with a better projectile selection to remove some of the variables. Normalise for impact velocity as a minimum with similar projectile construction and SD.
I would be very curious to see how the 7mm-08 stacks I to this. Is that cartridge ignored on the basis that there is not enough factory support options? Why did that cartridge not become popular to begin with?
I'm confused now. I have believed;
- 6.5 CM for long distance paper
- 7mm RM for long distance meat.
- 308/30-06 for big critters close-in.
- 375 HH for fangs and claws.
Very little the 6.5 Creed can do at long range that 308 can’t, plus 308 has the benefit of wide bullet weight range and huge availability.
Don't forget barrel twist rates. Early M16 couldn't stabilze heavy bullets. Same goes for some 270, 7 mags, etc... 338 Spectre twist for 225 - 250 bullet weights use 1:3 twist. I always like 30-06 range wt. Low 100s to low 200s
308 for the win. Next question.
Seriously, no joke, should have included .223 Rem. to this discussion with a varmint load, a cup/core, and a monolithic copper load out of a AR/bolt gun. Would be interesting to see how similar or dissimilar the results would've been.
just so on point with so much,, had my wife watch a bit of it,, i told her this was us when i worked at the gun stores
6.8 Western vs ... up to you!
.
When a episode with Nicholas Laufenberg talking about his new Book: "The Precision Marksman".?
Thanks Mark and Ryan.
6.8 western vs 7prc
Or 6.8 western vs 308
Then why do the Exotic hunts in Texas say don't bring a 65 Creedmoor.
The 6.5Cm is a more modern and better all around cartridge than the 308. Much like 243 or 270 was to the 30-30 back in the day. This is coming from a 308 user with no plans to change.
Well done! Have been using the .308 for many many years, however have just started using the 6.5 recently due to having eye surgery. Love both. With that said I also have a love affair with the .260 remington. recently built one from a Savage model 11 and love how it shoots. Would love to hear your thoughts on the .260.
Ryan.
Is it true?
Is 6.5 the newest Old Kid on the block (circa 1890?)
6.5 caliber predecessor to the 6.5 CREEDMORE....
Circa 1890 (Scandinavian Europe)
European hunting for over 100 years with a 6.5?
New to the US market, finally trendy as of, you said 2007 for CREEDMORE?
57:14
If the 65 creed more, won't have the same terminal impact, the same potential, out beyond 300 yards, 500 yards, or 700 years, whatever...
Fairly simple to carry both rounds? Perhaps a second magizine, preloaded with the 'long range' round?
The, I expect to meet my targets inside 300 yards, however,
If the perfect target appears, and the shot is within my confidence...out at 500 or 700 yards.
And I do shoot, and I do hit.
I can simply bring a long range option for that scenario?
And either running the action to load a long range round, clearing one close range copper, if necessary
Or swapping magazine, to load the long range ballistic selection...
Seems viable?
What binocular do each of you use for hunting?
A Vortex! 🤣🤣🤣
@@marksmith4627 well, whidathunk that? More info pls! Thx
I personally run the Razor UHD 10X42 and Razor UHD 12x50 the most. ...Depends on the hunt which one I choose.
Mark B.
@@VortexNation thank you!
live in west Texas, longer open spaces and LOTS of wind!!! Dose this change the outcome???
Awesome content!!! We need a vs of the new straight walls (350 LG, 400 LG, 450 BS etc.)
I have a 308 BLR for in the scrub pig hunting and a Sako A7 6.5mm creed Moor for deer up to 350m. Neither has ever let me down on a hunt
Did the copper projectiles turn backwards like the lead did ?
The 6.5 is certainly more efficient, and for long range shooting its a no brainer. But for hunting I would prefer the .308. It seems the larger area and higher bullet weight will offer more forgiveness on a less than ideal shot. The smaller and lighter the bullet, the more you have to rely on good shot placement. For an extreme example, I'd rather shoot a moose with a .50 cal rather than a .22lr. I think the idea of "no replacement for displacement" still applies, and while elk have been taken with the 6.5, I don't think it would be most hunters first choice. When it comes to LR, 6mm and 6.5 take the cake, but when it comes to hunting 30 cal is still king.
Did you try and compare the 2 calibers in terms of bullets with the same BC?