The apologetics infuriate me. The amount of twisting and wresting of scripture that they do is absolutely crazy. I wouldn't trust any of them to even tell me what 1+1 is. I think what a lot of the people who maintain the idea that Joseph and Hyrum were polygamists and that Emma is a liar don't realize is that Emma's testimony should mean A LOT. But bc we're always taught in the church that it doesn't, her testimony just gets disregarded. Bc who was more loyal to Joseph? Who loved Joseph more than her? NO ONE! And yet we just chuck her testimony aside like trash bc other people with basically nothing to back up their "testimonies" and "evidences" go "Oh she lied." It's ridiculous. To put these people's testimonies over Emma's (even if they are multiple) is absolutely nonsensical. Pres. Nelson once said before he was the prophet that sometimes we may feel like it's us against 100,000 other people and we might in those cases think "Well can a 100,000 other people really wrong? Yes!!! A 100,000 other people CAN be wrong!!!" Hence, just bc Emma is outnumbered in testimonies by these other people does NOT mean that we should just discredit her and assume she is lying. It is 100% possible for her to be right while all of the others are wrong. And as someone who has been researching and investigating all of this for several months now I can 100% testify beyond any doubt that they are ALL wrong and Emma is right.
On this note I guess we can here inject the LDS published Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" (on LDS official website). According to this essay, Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously. The essay brings out that most of Smith’s wives were between the ages of 20 and 40, but that he married Helen Mar Kimball “several months before her 15th birthday.” Or in other words, when she was still 14. Essay footnote #24 says that according to “careful estimates,” Smith had 30 to 40 wives.
It wouldn't make any difference if Joseph Smith never practiced it. The bottom line is the Lord never revoked it, at the time, after it started. Whether that was Joseph Smith or Brigham young. The Lord stopped it when he said too. People can try and say like I believe Joseph and others that post. I believe that those who try are basically apostates. 2:14 But the church is still true and growing and nothing will stop that. If it wasn't the church would've died off long ago.
Sh! Don't tell Joseph's 40 wives. And don't tell the LDS church, who came out admitting it. Of course, Joseph Smith is how and why polygamy was practiced in their church. Joseph grew so angry at the Nauvoo Expositor for speaking against polygamy, that he violated the First Amendment and had the press utterly destroyed. There is a reason why almost all, if not all, of the church leaders were against Joseph, or called liars by Joseph, or excommunicated by Joseph. Evidence is NEVER garbage. Concerning the Expositor... "They cite the practice of plural marriage, accusing Smith and other church leaders of using their ecclesiastical position to coerce recently arrived female converts into becoming Smith's "spiritual wi[ves]". They also cite the "false doctrine of many Gods", saying "[i]t is contended that there are innumerable Gods as much above the God that presides over this universe, as he is above us; and if he varies from the law unto which he is subjected, he, with all his creatures, will be cast down as was Lucifer". The Expositor contained affidavits alleging the teaching of a revelation from Smith which "authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time." Statements were made by William Law, his wife Jane, and Austin Cowles. According to the author of the video, this was all made up with is utter nonsense.
The sparse allegations in the Expositor were just that: allegations. Allegations are not evidence. There is evidence that Brigham, Heber and other apostles were marrying multiple women in the 1840s. There are records, and they had children by them before 1844. There is no such evidence for Joseph and Hyrum. The testimony from Joseph's alleged wives comes decades later, after Brigham is practicing in the open and saying that it came from Joseph.
@@IBelieveJoseph If they were mere allegations, why did they provoke Joseph Smith into taking the First Amendment Rights? The fact that his wives made testimonies when they knew it was safe to do so is powerful evidence that it occurred, not vice versa as you suggest.
Bring them young is such a hilarious name for a cult leader. As for the video it's inane, you might as well say the Israelites never killed anybody because they had a commandment not to kill, despite the testimonies of them killing.
I’m curious as to why Joseph smith wanted to keep the Whitney’s visit as mentioned in his letter to them a secret from Emma. And why Emma knowing they were there would be dangerous
@zrosix2240 Well, the letter doesn’t mention keeping the visit a secret from Emma. Joseph asks the Whitneys to not come while Emma is there. In fact, he tells them to find out when Emma is coming (and what easier way than by coordinating with her?) so they’re not there simultaneously. Joseph also asks Newell to come first, and for them to avoid observation. Despite the inaccurate editorial framing, you can read the letter here: www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1 Joseph was hiding just outside of town at the time, being hunted by lawmen from Missouri. Joseph likely thought that his friends and family all dropping by to visit together was too risky.
@@IBelieveJoseph I do think it’s odd for people to use this as evidence of polygamy when he specifically requests newel along with the women. It’s more likely Joseph was feeling lonely and wanted friends to hang out with than having a secret meeting with his polygamous wives. And even if they were his polygamous wives, why would Emma arriving be dangerous for them when according to their “scholarly” explanation, Emma was unaware of the marriage. Joseph could’ve simply lied and said their (as Emma knew the Whitney’s well herself) friends were visiting. Especially since it wasn’t just one woman showing up, but an entire family. The entire explanation they give for it being polygamous is just a stretch
@@zrosix2240 the reason it would be "dangerous," in this interpretation of events, is because it would endanger the tryst that JS is trying to arrange. It would defeat the purpose of the visit, even if it didn't raise suspicions in Emma (which it might well, of course). What's extremely odd to me is why the letter is meant to be burned upon reading, why the men are meant to scout ahead of the women, and why this must all be kept a secret from his wife. What's YOUR explanation for the cloak and dagger, if it's merely a few friends hanging out?
Truth to me stands up on its own integrity. Christ said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” Truth then does not need to be defended, it merely needs to be perceived and lived as Christ lived it. “Know the truth and the truth shall make you free,” are the words of Christ. To live the truth is to become the truth! Christ’s truth is his divine character manifest through “divine nature,” and even now He stands upon that integrity! Therefore, my filter for truth must also be in “divine nature,” (fruits of the Spirit) if I have any hope of becoming like Him! “Be holy for I am holy” are the words of Jehovah to ancient Israel. This teaches me that God the Father’s truth is also founded in “divine nature.” Like Father like Son. Therefore, every old and new doctrine or philosophy I hear must be filtered through “divine nature” (the fruits of the Spirit) and if it does not pass that test, through the filter of virtue, honesty and holiness, and every other godly divine attribute; I have learned to “let it go” and I do not worry about it. My confidence, therefore, is not in principalities and governments of men (the arm of flesh and organized religion) but in godliness of character as Father and Christ manifest it.
I took the doctrine of polygamy and it did not pass the test of “divine nature…” as the scriptures will prove. Questions we should ask ourselves: Has polygamy ever been right? Will it ever be right? Did the Prophet Joseph Smith ever teach polygamy or live it? Absolutely Not in all cases! For these scriptural reasons. The Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit, and if he repents not he shall be cast out. Thou shalt not commit adultery, and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not shall be cast out. But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.” (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 42:22 - 26) Revelation given February 9, 1831 This revelation was called “embracing the law of the Church” This revelation was true and binding the day it was given and is true and binding for all generations to come.
Personally, I see the passionate arguments made on both sides of this topic - and enough uncertainty that it is clearly not a settled matter. I appreciate all the individuals, from both sides of the conclusions, who are putting in the effort to research... I just hope the focus continues to be on finding the truth and does not degenerate into insults and attacks on individuals (as there are some external motivations on both sides) . At the end of the day, for me, it seems that the the Lord was very clear in D&C 132 v8: Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. This topic is clearly one of confusion - by that definition, it is hard to see how polygamy is of the Lord - regardless of who started it (Brigham or Joseph).
I happen to believe Smith did practice polygamy. However it doesn't matter if he did or did not practice it because he's still the one responsible for introducing and promoting this degenerate behavior amongst his congregation
@president234 That’s a strange point of view to take, since Joseph regularly denounced polygamy, and kicked people out of the church if he found them practicing or teaching it. Most of the people claiming Joseph did it were polygamists, and they claimed it after Joseph was long dead.
@@IBelieveJoseph There's nothing strange about it. He is the one who introduced it to the church. So why would he kick them out for practicing it when he's the one who started it? So he claims to get a revelation from God and then goes about rejecting it? Come on that's ridiculous
@president334 When and where do you think he introduced it to the church? You say that “he claims he got a revelation from God.” If you’re referring to D&C 132, I have some bad news for you: th-cam.com/video/Poj3EPwQufs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qJOimM0CWxJz9lo9
@IBelieveJoseph Smith didn't write D&C 132. So eternal marriage is a lie and the church was corrupted from the beginning. All the more reason not to trust LDS doctrine
Thank you for this research. I’m inclined to believe this perspective, but I’m still waiting on a plausible explanation for William Clayton’s journals. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think his journals are contemporary evidence of Joseph’s polygamy. His journals talk about multiple instances where Joseph is engaging in or approving of plural marriage. I would love clarification on this topic if you can.
Also the journals of women married to Joseph Smith. Not to mention all of the other early Mormons who kept journals. Everything you need to Study yourself out of Mormonism is in the LDS archives.
If Joseph wasn't a polygamist then that would mean a lot of people would had to have either been deceived or intentionally lied about it. Certainly some lied however many honorable people testified with firsthand knowledge. Polygamy was going on in the church and instead of destroying the Nauvoo Expositor he could have simply issued a statement in the Times and Seasons.
There is a lot of history and background that we don't really hear about in church. If you study the historical archives of the church you see that there are a lot more people who testified of Joseph's innocence than there are of people who said he was guilty. The amount of teaching and testifying that Joseph and Hyrum did against plural marriage is also a huge testament in and if itself of their innocence. People in the church tend to act like Joseph and Hyrum's personal testimonies of their innocence don't mean anything just bc a few people (who admit that there isn't even any substantial evidence of their having practiced plural marriage) come up behind them (after they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and say they are guilty. Also just from knowing the scriptures it is very clear that plural marriage is a false doctrine and that if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, there's no way he would have lived it. For example, God told Joseph (during the time when Joseph was said to have been practicing plural marriage) that no one who keeps the laws of God will need to break the laws of the land. So there's no way God would go against His own words and command Joseph to practice plural marriage, which was illegal in Illinois. He doesn't operate that way. Also if you look at the "evidences" and "accounts" from people of Joseph and Hyrum having lived plural marriage, they are incredibly strange and suspicious. Such as no one ever using the scriptures to refute the doctrine which Joseph and Hyrum were very actively teaching against. And multiple of these accounts have strange holes, and some of them even have doubles that don't coincide with each other.
@@peachysparkles I agree that history is very fuzzy and that plural marriage is not a true doctrine. However whether Joseph did it or not is a different question. The laws of God and man can certainly align however they are generally mutually exclusive. Following God in China will likely get you killed. I personally think a large evidence that Joseph did it, is because after Kirtland he was fundamentally a different "Joseph" so to speak. He received almost no revelations, was involved in temporal affairs, and started introducing false doctrines. He made many prophecies that provably didn't happen and was described as arrogant. The book Joseph in the Gap describes that because the members rejected the fulness, in Kirtland, then God removed his gifts from Joseph and he suffered because of this.
Thank you for your earnest comment! However, I don't think you're thinking very clearly. "Certainly some lied however many honorable people testified with firsthand knowledge." That's an assumption, not a fact. Even if they weren't intentionally lying, memories can be distorted and altered over time. Human memory is exceptionally fallible. "Polygamy was going on in the church" Yes, by Brigham Young and Heber Kimball. "...and instead of destroying the Nauvoo Expositor he could have simply issued a statement in the Times and Seasons." Joseph did not want to destroy the Expositor, and he issued multiple statements in the Times and Seasons condemning polygamy.
@@IBelieveJoseph Honorable because other contemporary people claimed they were. This is also based on their previous statements. This would include people like William Marks who was the Nauvoo Stake President. On June 8th 1844, Joseph who was the Mayor of Nauvoo, met with the Nauvoo City Council for six and a half hours then again on June 10th for seven and a half hours. At the conclusion of the June 10th meeting the entire council, including Joseph, voted to destroy the Expositor. Nothing printed in the Expositor was false. Joseph decided to destroy it because he didn't like what it was saying and claimed it was a public nuisance.
@@Telavian I don't think that building a case entirely on what people claim about something is a good idea. William Marks said that Joseph was not a polygamist. I quote him in the video. Did you even watch it? Please, what is your source for Joseph voting to destroy the Expositor?
You took that quote from Zion's Harbinger in a completely different way than I did. I thought it was a false quote showing Joseph Smith having admitted that he was deceived in regards to receiving a revelation from God that plural marriage was true. But the way youre presenting it makes more sense and coincides with the other quote by Brother Marks.
Glad you got something from the video! Actually, I just dropped a new video on the subject of Marks and that quote: th-cam.com/video/yM-BmtvjL_c/w-d-xo.html
First, Hyrum did not become a polygamist. Not only is the evidence for that even weaker than with Joseph, Hyrum explicitly said that "God has not commanded anyone to have more than one wife." th-cam.com/video/QxVtJvgvHAs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5Bp15Son-n1ivSdJ Second, "affair" in the 1800 did not have the modern connotation of extramarital sexual activity. webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/affair And even if it did, an accusation is not evidence.
@@IBelieveJoseph Please tackle the evidence on both of these issues. It is widely accepted that Hyrum practiced plural marriage and that Oliver was referring to Joesph’s sexual activity.
@@Jjj53214 Well, I don't really care what's "widely accepted." What I care about is the truth. The "evidence" for Hyrum's polygamy consists of accusations. That's it. Oliver may have assumed at first that something sexual happened, but the words he used in the document you referred to do not necessarily indicate that. The misconceptions around that are so prevalent though, that it may be worth a video in the future. Thanks for the idea!
@@IBelieveJoseph Where there is smoke, there is often (although not always) fire. I would like it if Smith was not a polygamist. It would be ideal if all the many affidavits, interviews, accusations, and allegations from his associates were false. However, it is important simply as a matter of objectivity to at least accept the possibility that he may have indeed practiced sexual plural marriage.
I have done my research into this and what I have found is JS did polygamy but the days he was marrying these women were their choice and secondly they were around 9 months pregnant
Joseph Smith never said he wasn't a polygamist. The Book of Mormon also condemns secret signs and tokens, yet that's what the temple is. Joseph Smith theology changed as he progressed, hence the differences.
Thanks for your comment! Joseph absolutely said that he was not a polygamist. He may not have used those exact words, but you'd have to be pretty obtuse to not understand what he's saying, here for instance: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zLQEfWMoG1r_G-sn. As for the temple ordinances, Michelle Stone has pretty credibly demonstrated that Brigham invented them: th-cam.com/video/S4pHzYtAOeg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vAnHZ7W8e19mDNfc
@IBelieveJoseph so did Joseph Smith. Scholarly work means scholars go where the evidence leads them. Faith in God and still finding value in the LDS community are separate topics. I'll never understand why it is so difficult to take real, proven historical evidence and move forward, even though it is disturbing. Have you read the happiness letter? Have you ever talked to people who's husband's did terrible things that caused them such anquish and can't verbalize or talk about it truthfully? Even the community of christ faces this issue head on, and even as a LDS member, I'd say they follow the core doctrines closer than the Brighamites, which other sects call us. I had to face my temple working, high counselman ex was sleeping with men. I hated it but had to face it and move forward. I can't excuse Joseph either. Poor Emma
Have any of the descendants of the offspring of Hyrum Smith’s supposed plural wives been genetically tested to see if Hyrum had children with any of them?
Okay lets look at them ( i think you reversed your order) #1 Joseph kind of sort of condemns polygamy Which is kind of sort of true, if you read the actual words to the best we know them Joseph never flatly condemns polygamy even though he is under criminal charge for polygamy. He usually says he has authority or "keys" to allow "restoration" and thus he never flatly denies polygamy. #2 Joseph and Hyrum and Emma consistently condemn polygamy This is simply wrong. Hyrum was against it as was Emma and both were forced to accept it in their lives. Hyrum married 2 additional wives less than a year before his death. Emma shared her "mansion" with Joseph's other wives. In all accounts Emma did not take polygamy well. #3 Brigham Young was a Liar Well that is really unrelated, apologist use it as a backward explanation, however it is unrelated for example the Expositor was written by a member of the twelve and never even mentions Brigham, and is written too early for Brigham's hand and it contains D&C 132 ( which is huge) #4 Poor Quality of Evidence for Joseph being a polygamous 2 affidavits and a criminal charge were issued before Joseph's murder. 3 plural wives testified in court it was true in every form. An a public newspaper printed the detail, which the mob destroyed rather than answered #5 No children Emma needed 6 years to meet that standard (living DNA strain). 20 year old Joseph with a young pretty wife didn't meet the standard for 6 years. So why would you expect a 37 year old Joseph to meet it in a night or week? The Expositor states once Joseph had his fun the girl was quickly sent away. So if you look at how many attempts Joseph and Emma likely had when Joseph was 20-26 verses the short flings it is highly likely Joseph wasn't that fertile and is plural attempts were drastically smaller in number. It should also be noted that the 2 children falsely attributed to Joseph from plural wives make sense if they were practicing activities that make children and make no sense if they were celibate relationships. There are some skeptic issues here maybe not intentional but it is critical to use the same standard both ways. Joseph worked through others. Others wrote most everything, Joseph went to great lengths to avoid writing and thus much more is hearsay than usually however the choose to accept this and the choose to reject that should be applied equally both ways. For example Joseph was tarred, feather and scheduled for castration some say over a land deal, others say over a 19 year old girl. I ask you which would seem to fit better? And finally the whole Fannie Alger issue the problem there is when as much as what.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Allow me to offer some corrections. Joseph absolutely did explicitly condemn polygamy. "Joseph forbids it, and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife." th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.html The only "evidence" that Hyrum and Emma accepted polygamy is the testimony of polygamists decades later. Brigham Young being a liar is absolutely important, because he's the primary accuser of Joseph. Every other Mormon who accused Joseph was dependent on Brigham one way or another. Being accused of a crime doesn't make someone guilty. The side the plural wives were testifying for lost the case--the judge and jury found their testimony unconvincing. The paper was destroyed by the sheriff following an official order, not by a "mob." And many other papers were printing similar things but were not destroyed by "mobs." Interesting thoughts about the children, and I admitted the possibility. But it's still a big discrepancy, since in the same time frame Brigham and Heber were already siring children on their plural wives. The inescapable facts are that Joseph and his family consistently denied it, and no woman accused him of it until decades later when they were under Brigham's control in Utah.
@@IBelieveJoseph I think there are a lot of errors in that post, I do understand you believe it. I also understand there will be no definitive proof available to us at this time However lets look at the best of the previous post which is the journal reference. Simply who wrote it the exact writing you are looking at? D&C 101 (1835) and D&C 109?(1844) would seem to be what is referenced in that journal. So I see as important but not convincing. The primary reason I would not consider it convincing is it is typical of accounts from the time. So why would I accept this account more important than first hand accounts? This account is a transcript just to give this transcript equal weigh, not superior weight, but equal weight, we need testimony from the author. He needs to confirm it was his actual writing and no one else's and explain the apparent inconsistencies. For example it is a very high quality writing to be done while walking, and it makes no contextual sense, nothing related proceeds it or follows it. I referred to this in the initial posts why dismiss multiple direct first hand accounts under oath, while accepting a written statement which has not been authenticated?
@@ernestcook4285 Thank you , I dont think anyone will seriously contest that however I don't see its relevance. There are dozens of polygamy/affair/adultery issues outside of Brigham. Just for a simple example the excommunication related to Fanny Alger, if false it would have provided a need to stamp out any hints of these issues in the future, and that was opposite what happened.
@Whats Up quite a difference between the 2 men, Joseph translated the BOM , organized the church, and saw God. Brigham changed scripture in DC ,ordained polygamy , is a liar, and had culpability knowledge and responsibility of the Mountain Meadow massacre. So by their works, who are you prone to believe? Me, I believe Joseph.
You kind of have to close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears to come up with something this ridiculous. I mean you have to be dedicated to ignoring reality.
@littlewingmyoho your message is not thought out. These guys are not giving an honest story. And why are you reading the Book of Mormon in the first place? Are you doing it for an honest reason? Do you want to know if it's true? Have you even read the Bible? If you were reading the Old Testament, you'd say the same thing? It's all about honesty. Try it some time.
@littlewingmyoho Well, good luck to you. Clearly, you haven't found God yet. To receive, you first have to give, or at least ask. Would help if you didn't listen to lies.
@@WatchingwaitingG2DJoseph Smith was a false prophet he said Jesus was coming back in 1891 he said that the Quakers on the moon how can you trust a liar
If you ever doubt Joseph Smith, go to the source. Go inside the LDS Temple in Independence, Missouri and read the books of Abraham and Joseph. It's not like he got the Book of Mormon from some dead guy. Anyone can examine the original Gold Plates for themselves. Remember what Christ said... Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert [wilderness]; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Why wouldn’t William Law keep contemporaneous evidence of the revelation if it in fact existed and was in his possession? He apparently just handed the evidence back and THEN threw a fit? Furthermore, the most shocking part in D&C 132 by far says that Emma Smith could be destroyed, but nobody who claimed they saw the revelation mention anything about it?
You seem to be insinuating that Joseph wanted to destroy the Expositor to hide his polygamy. Not only would that have not worked, since many other newspapers were printing similar stories, but there are multiple accounts stating that the city council ordered that destruction of the paper against Joseph's wishes. But Brigham Young was sure happy that it was destroyed: th-cam.com/video/5LsRA7Liyk0/w-d-xo.html
@@IBelieveJoseph The minutes are freely available in the JSP project and clearly list the "mayor" making many statements about its destruction. Joseph even wrote a letter to Governor Ford justifying the destruction.
In the minutes of the meeting discussing the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, there was a man who came forward to testify that the same printing press had tried to hire him to make plates to print counterfeit money. They were afraid that the news of fake money would bring mobs that would connect it to the Mormons. Since the Kirkland safety society printing fake money is partially what brought the mobs to Kirkland in the first place, this was a valid concern.
One of those sources that you quoted was actually a man who talk to Joseph, when he was in jail, and the statements of Joseph, or about him regretting the fact that he was involved with polygamy it was Joseph saying that polygamy would be his downfall. It wasn’t Joseph Smith denouncing other people in the church practicing with me. It was him regretting his own activities.
@SmilingOutdoorGrill-np3xp Thanks for your comment! I've never seen any evidence that Joseph taught "multiple marriage." He and Hyrum explicitly taught that polygamy was an abomination. Check out my other videos to see more. Like this one: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8HlPZhpMc_SeU6w9
BOM is written by Joe smith himself 😂😂😂 Zero evidence DNA and archeological 😂😂😂😂 JST gets absolutely demolished by the Dead Sea scrolls in this Old Testament translation 😂😂😂
It's not that they can't get anything right, necessarily. It's that they're not looking for the truth, but are looking for whatever will defend their beliefs.
@TheMormonAtheist Hey! Thank you for your comment. I have read excepts of No Man Knows My History. It's awful! I try to deal in primary sources--Ms. Brodie dealt in rumors and innuendo. I'm not sure what you mean about me being an apologist for the (LDS?) church. The LDS Church teaches that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I share evidence that they're wrong. That's the opposite of an apologist.
This is incorrect. Joseph was not legally married to anyone other than Emma his wife. He was sealed to other sisters. Plural marriage is not Polygamy. Plural marriage was legal and still is. Polygamy is illegal and still is. They are not the same.
@michaelparks5669 Thank you for your comment! From what I've seen, Joseph and Hyrum did not make any distinction between plural marriage, polygamy, and spiritual wifery in their condemnations. Joseph specifically condemned "plurality of wives," as I document here: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3nyNhZnvR7rtcbZ9 The distinctions seem to have grown up as people tried to make sense of Brigham's lies. If you've seen anything from Joseph or Hyrum specifying a difference between "plural wives" and polygamy, please share.
@@IBelieveJoseph Joseph Smith did make a distinction. The law makes a distinction. Joseph Smith denied he was practicing polygamy. Did you not know that? Polygamy correctly called "bigamy" is a legal term. It means to register in a court of law more than one individual as your spouse. It is illegal. There are no such registered marriages involving Joseph Smith. Thus he was telling the truth. Plural marriage is a religious term It means to declare more than one spouse as one's own with mutual consent. It is legal. It is protected under the First Amendment. Joseph Smith denied he was practicing polygamy. There are no records of Joseph Smith having registering any marriage other than to his wife Emma. There has been an extensive search to find descendants of Joseph Smith by women other than his by his wife Emma. DNA evidence proves there are no known descendants of anyone being the descendent of Joseph Smith other than by his wife Emma Hale Smith. Brigham Young's lies? Explain.
BREAKING NEWS: A historical document written in Nauvoo, Illinois in 1843 has been discovered which sheds more light on Joseph Smith's polygamy practice. It was written by a 16 year old girl to whom Joseph had recently introduced the doctrine: I looked out the window and what did I see? The Prophet Joseph making eyes at me. It shouldn't come as a complete surprise. The angel told him "Try HER on for size!" Now, I could take a powder and leave the scene, But he'd probably send Porter huntin' after me. I guess it must be so, But I don't wanna be, The prophet's wife number thirty-three.
Hey Mr. Jordan, I was interested in your claim, so I looked it up. It only took me a minute to verify what you said is false, and just a clever little poem you came up with to entertain at your presentation at the "8th Annual Ex-Mormon Conference" on October 5, 2002 in Salt Lake City, UT. I'll give you the credit for me not recognizing the tune to which this is meant to be sung at first, and it is at very least clever. But what you've shown here is that you're not interested in truth, you're interested in pursuing the cause of convincing that Joseph was a polygamist, even to the point where you are willing to lie and intend to mislead others with so called "breaking news". If your evidence against the subject is really as strong as I see you claim on many other videos, you wouldn't have to stoop to intentionally coming up with falsities to further your claims. God is on the side of truth, whether that truth be that Joseph was a liar, adulterer and polygamist or that he was not. You do yourself and no one else justice by serving the author of all lies instead of the author of truth. I hope you seek God's truth above all us, and I would hope anyone is open to God revealing the truth, whatever it might be, in their honest search.
@@RiftFishing What you should rather check is the Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" on LDS official website. This essay, does bring out that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously. The footnote #24 in this essay says that according to “careful estimates,” Smith had 30 to 40 wives. It also says that most of Smith’s wives were between the ages of 20 and 40, but that he married Helen Mar Kimball when she was still 14.
So you expect I guy who was breaking the law as a bygamist and committing many taboos to admit to it. Many cheaters will never admit to cheating on their wives let alone of their entire income and reputation are ruined if it comes out. But hey let’s just throw out the testimony of all the women that testified they were his wives or he approached them. How misogynistic. 30 women’s testimonies are less then one man’s.
So, you consider the denial of the crime as evidence? Speaking of throwing out the testimony of women, why are you discounting the testimony of the women who said Joseph was innocent, like Emma Smith and Mary Page?
My concern with the women's testimonies is that it seems there was a huge of pressure on them - they were generally at this time married to Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball or another leader.... and there was a real interest in the church to show that polygamy was part of the original church set up by Joseph.... (driven by the church's conflict with the US government - which I think understandably put everyone in "survival mode") - so it seems to me there was an extremely strong motivation for many women (safety and survival of their families) to respond to the affidavit requests in a way that supported the church's position and were aligned with the results their leaders (whom they had testimonies were prophets, seers and revelators) desired.
They prove no such thing. Many of the documents are much later accounts of people (mostly Brigham and Heber's wives) claiming that Joseph was a polygamist. Documents that are closer to Joseph's lifetime were deliberately altered to make it appear that he supported polygamy. Here's a great example: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fA2a3gm76zfKfY9h
@@IBelieveJoseph What's your proof that "documents that are closer to Joseph's lifetime were deliberately altered"? And that they support that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? When in fact the LDS published Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" admits that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously.
Wow, this is just sad. This guy flatly denies a historical truth known to all the world at the time it happened, and documented a thousand ways... a historical fact beyond any shadow of a doubt. The State of Utah was only allowed to join the United States on condition that it would abolish the polygamy that was known to everyone. And his "top 5 reasons" are so lame, so pathetic, that any ten year old child could see that this guy is an idiot. The ability of people caught up in religious cults to deceive themselves never ceases to amaze me.
Phil Paine you my friend are the clueless one. This man’s evidence is spot on. You obviously don’t understand or realize what a sneaky snake Brigham Young was. Brigham Young was an amazing, liar. He also talked many other people into lying as well. He had multiple women write affidavits stating non-truths. In other words, lies. He had people claim they were witnesses to Joseph’s relationships with other women. That’s very easy to do when you have extreme power and control over the entire organization, and it’s also pretty easy to say whatever you want when the person you are making claims toward was a dead man, and unable to defend himself. Joseph adamantly opposed having more than one wife. Brigham Young and many of his closest friends had numerous wives. Brigham and his best friend Heber C Kimball, had a combined total of 99 wives. Joseph Smith had only one. And that’s the honest to God truth.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm claiming the LDS church didn't practice polygamy. So I assume that you didn't watch the video. But if you did and would like to actually criticize my reasons instead of using ad hominem, please do so. Thank you!
@@IBelieveJoseph- You are trying to rewrite history to suggest or show that Joseph did not restore the doctrine, did not practice the doctrine and did not approve of the doctrine. What didn't you get wrong?
The apologetics infuriate me. The amount of twisting and wresting of scripture that they do is absolutely crazy. I wouldn't trust any of them to even tell me what 1+1 is.
I think what a lot of the people who maintain the idea that Joseph and Hyrum were polygamists and that Emma is a liar don't realize is that Emma's testimony should mean A LOT. But bc we're always taught in the church that it doesn't, her testimony just gets disregarded. Bc who was more loyal to Joseph? Who loved Joseph more than her? NO ONE! And yet we just chuck her testimony aside like trash bc other people with basically nothing to back up their "testimonies" and "evidences" go "Oh she lied." It's ridiculous. To put these people's testimonies over Emma's (even if they are multiple) is absolutely nonsensical. Pres. Nelson once said before he was the prophet that sometimes we may feel like it's us against 100,000 other people and we might in those cases think "Well can a 100,000 other people really wrong? Yes!!! A 100,000 other people CAN be wrong!!!" Hence, just bc Emma is outnumbered in testimonies by these other people does NOT mean that we should just discredit her and assume she is lying. It is 100% possible for her to be right while all of the others are wrong. And as someone who has been researching and investigating all of this for several months now I can 100% testify beyond any doubt that they are ALL wrong and Emma is right.
Great points, Ms. Sparkles.
@@IBelieveJoseph Thank you! Keep up the good work ma brotha!
On this note I guess we can here inject the LDS published Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" (on LDS official website). According to this essay, Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously. The essay brings out that most of Smith’s wives were between the ages of 20 and 40, but that he married Helen Mar Kimball “several months before her 15th birthday.” Or in other words, when she was still 14. Essay footnote #24 says that according to “careful estimates,” Smith had 30 to 40 wives.
I think that they are just following Joseph's example, he taught them well, and they helped him pass for a prophet.
It wouldn't make any difference if Joseph Smith never practiced it. The bottom line is the Lord never revoked it, at the time, after it started. Whether that was Joseph Smith or Brigham young. The Lord stopped it when he said too. People can try and say like I believe Joseph and others that post. I believe that those who try are basically apostates. 2:14 But the church is still true and growing and nothing will stop that. If it wasn't the church would've died off long ago.
Great work.. the truth always has a way of coming out..
Thank you for watching!
Great podcast, well researched and full of truth! 👍
Are you serious ?
You can't recognize truth when you believe lies.
Thank you! After a year of listening to people such as yourself, I believe he was a monogamist!
You're very welcome!
Very well said and done!
Thank you!
Sh! Don't tell Joseph's 40 wives. And don't tell the LDS church, who came out admitting it. Of course, Joseph Smith is how and why polygamy was practiced in their church. Joseph grew so angry at the Nauvoo Expositor for speaking against polygamy, that he violated the First Amendment and had the press utterly destroyed. There is a reason why almost all, if not all, of the church leaders were against Joseph, or called liars by Joseph, or excommunicated by Joseph.
Evidence is NEVER garbage. Concerning the Expositor...
"They cite the practice of plural marriage, accusing Smith and other church leaders of using their ecclesiastical position to coerce recently arrived female converts into becoming Smith's "spiritual wi[ves]". They also cite the "false doctrine of many Gods", saying "[i]t is contended that there are innumerable Gods as much above the God that presides over this universe, as he is above us; and if he varies from the law unto which he is subjected, he, with all his creatures, will be cast down as was Lucifer".
The Expositor contained affidavits alleging the teaching of a revelation from Smith which "authorized certain men to have more wives than one at a time." Statements were made by William Law, his wife Jane, and Austin Cowles.
According to the author of the video, this was all made up with is utter nonsense.
The sparse allegations in the Expositor were just that: allegations. Allegations are not evidence. There is evidence that Brigham, Heber and other apostles were marrying multiple women in the 1840s. There are records, and they had children by them before 1844. There is no such evidence for Joseph and Hyrum. The testimony from Joseph's alleged wives comes decades later, after Brigham is practicing in the open and saying that it came from Joseph.
@@IBelieveJoseph If they were mere allegations, why did they provoke Joseph Smith into taking the First Amendment Rights? The fact that his wives made testimonies when they knew it was safe to do so is powerful evidence that it occurred, not vice versa as you suggest.
Bring them young is such a hilarious name for a cult leader. As for the video it's inane, you might as well say the Israelites never killed anybody because they had a commandment not to kill, despite the testimonies of them killing.
@@IBelieveJoseph D&C 132 which was written by Smith, makes it pretty clear he endorsed polygamy.
@@tsutt_aceDo you have proof that Joseph wrote section 132, which was published long after Joseph was murdered, by his poligamist enemies.
I’m curious as to why Joseph smith wanted to keep the Whitney’s visit as mentioned in his letter to them a secret from Emma. And why Emma knowing they were there would be dangerous
@zrosix2240 Well, the letter doesn’t mention keeping the visit a secret from Emma. Joseph asks the Whitneys to not come while Emma is there. In fact, he tells them to find out when Emma is coming (and what easier way than by coordinating with her?) so they’re not there simultaneously. Joseph also asks Newell to come first, and for them to avoid observation. Despite the inaccurate editorial framing, you can read the letter here: www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1
Joseph was hiding just outside of town at the time, being hunted by lawmen from Missouri. Joseph likely thought that his friends and family all dropping by to visit together was too risky.
@@IBelieveJoseph I do think it’s odd for people to use this as evidence of polygamy when he specifically requests newel along with the women. It’s more likely Joseph was feeling lonely and wanted friends to hang out with than having a secret meeting with his polygamous wives. And even if they were his polygamous wives, why would Emma arriving be dangerous for them when according to their “scholarly” explanation, Emma was unaware of the marriage. Joseph could’ve simply lied and said their (as Emma knew the Whitney’s well herself) friends were visiting. Especially since it wasn’t just one woman showing up, but an entire family. The entire explanation they give for it being polygamous is just a stretch
@@zrosix2240 the reason it would be "dangerous," in this interpretation of events, is because it would endanger the tryst that JS is trying to arrange. It would defeat the purpose of the visit, even if it didn't raise suspicions in Emma (which it might well, of course). What's extremely odd to me is why the letter is meant to be burned upon reading, why the men are meant to scout ahead of the women, and why this must all be kept a secret from his wife. What's YOUR explanation for the cloak and dagger, if it's merely a few friends hanging out?
So good!!
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Truth to me stands up on its own integrity. Christ said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” Truth then does not need to be defended, it merely needs to be perceived and lived as Christ lived it. “Know the truth and the truth shall make you free,” are the words of Christ. To live the truth is to become the truth! Christ’s truth is his divine character manifest through “divine nature,” and even now He stands upon that integrity! Therefore, my filter for truth must also be in “divine nature,” (fruits of the Spirit) if I have any hope of becoming like Him! “Be holy for I am holy” are the words of Jehovah to ancient Israel. This teaches me that God the Father’s truth is also founded in “divine nature.” Like Father like Son. Therefore, every old and new doctrine or philosophy I hear must be filtered through “divine nature” (the fruits of the Spirit) and if it does not pass that test, through the filter of virtue, honesty and holiness, and every other godly divine attribute; I have learned to “let it go” and I do not worry about it. My confidence, therefore, is not in principalities and governments of men (the arm of flesh and organized religion) but in godliness of character as Father and Christ manifest it.
I took the doctrine of polygamy and it did not pass the test of “divine nature…” as the scriptures will prove.
Questions we should ask ourselves: Has polygamy ever been right? Will it ever be right? Did the Prophet Joseph Smith ever teach polygamy or live it? Absolutely Not in all cases! For these scriptural reasons.
The Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit, and if he repents not he shall be cast out.
Thou shalt not commit adultery, and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not shall be cast out. But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 42:22 - 26)
Revelation given February 9, 1831
This revelation was called “embracing the law of the Church” This revelation was true and binding the day it was given and is true and binding for all generations to come.
But Joseph was special, he got to break the Commandments, especially that one about having no other gods before God.
Personally, I see the passionate arguments made on both sides of this topic - and enough uncertainty that it is clearly not a settled matter. I appreciate all the individuals, from both sides of the conclusions, who are putting in the effort to research... I just hope the focus continues to be on finding the truth and does not degenerate into insults and attacks on individuals (as there are some external motivations on both sides) . At the end of the day, for me, it seems that the the Lord was very clear in D&C 132 v8: Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
This topic is clearly one of confusion - by that definition, it is hard to see how polygamy is of the Lord - regardless of who started it (Brigham or Joseph).
or a 5 gallon can of gas lighting
I happen to believe Smith did practice polygamy. However it doesn't matter if he did or did not practice it because he's still the one responsible for introducing and promoting this degenerate behavior amongst his congregation
@president234 That’s a strange point of view to take, since Joseph regularly denounced polygamy, and kicked people out of the church if he found them practicing or teaching it. Most of the people claiming Joseph did it were polygamists, and they claimed it after Joseph was long dead.
@@IBelieveJoseph There's nothing strange about it. He is the one who introduced it to the church. So why would he kick them out for practicing it when he's the one who started it? So he claims to get a revelation from God and then goes about rejecting it? Come on that's ridiculous
@president334 When and where do you think he introduced it to the church? You say that “he claims he got a revelation from God.” If you’re referring to D&C 132, I have some bad news for you: th-cam.com/video/Poj3EPwQufs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qJOimM0CWxJz9lo9
@IBelieveJoseph Smith didn't write D&C 132. So eternal marriage is a lie and the church was corrupted from the beginning. All the more reason not to trust LDS doctrine
Thank you for this research. I’m inclined to believe this perspective, but I’m still waiting on a plausible explanation for William Clayton’s journals. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think his journals are contemporary evidence of Joseph’s polygamy. His journals talk about multiple instances where Joseph is engaging in or approving of plural marriage. I would love clarification on this topic if you can.
It's difficult to say, since the Church won't let anyone see William Clayton's journals--only redacted and edited transcripts.
th-cam.com/video/PGlzpnAAYDI/w-d-xo.html
Also the journals of women married to Joseph Smith. Not to mention all of the other early Mormons who kept journals. Everything you need to Study yourself out of Mormonism is in the LDS archives.
Check out Michele Stone’s extensive work on this on her podcast “123 problems”
If Joseph wasn't a polygamist then that would mean a lot of people would had to have either been deceived or intentionally lied about it.
Certainly some lied however many honorable people testified with firsthand knowledge.
Polygamy was going on in the church and instead of destroying the Nauvoo Expositor he could have simply issued a statement in the Times and Seasons.
There is a lot of history and background that we don't really hear about in church. If you study the historical archives of the church you see that there are a lot more people who testified of Joseph's innocence than there are of people who said he was guilty. The amount of teaching and testifying that Joseph and Hyrum did against plural marriage is also a huge testament in and if itself of their innocence. People in the church tend to act like Joseph and Hyrum's personal testimonies of their innocence don't mean anything just bc a few people (who admit that there isn't even any substantial evidence of their having practiced plural marriage) come up behind them (after they are dead and can't speak for themselves) and say they are guilty.
Also just from knowing the scriptures it is very clear that plural marriage is a false doctrine and that if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, there's no way he would have lived it. For example, God told Joseph (during the time when Joseph was said to have been practicing plural marriage) that no one who keeps the laws of God will need to break the laws of the land. So there's no way God would go against His own words and command Joseph to practice plural marriage, which was illegal in Illinois. He doesn't operate that way.
Also if you look at the "evidences" and "accounts" from people of Joseph and Hyrum having lived plural marriage, they are incredibly strange and suspicious. Such as no one ever using the scriptures to refute the doctrine which Joseph and Hyrum were very actively teaching against. And multiple of these accounts have strange holes, and some of them even have doubles that don't coincide with each other.
@@peachysparkles I agree that history is very fuzzy and that plural marriage is not a true doctrine. However whether Joseph did it or not is a different question.
The laws of God and man can certainly align however they are generally mutually exclusive. Following God in China will likely get you killed.
I personally think a large evidence that Joseph did it, is because after Kirtland he was fundamentally a different "Joseph" so to speak. He received almost no revelations, was involved in temporal affairs, and started introducing false doctrines. He made many prophecies that provably didn't happen and was described as arrogant.
The book Joseph in the Gap describes that because the members rejected the fulness, in Kirtland, then God removed his gifts from Joseph and he suffered because of this.
Thank you for your earnest comment! However, I don't think you're thinking very clearly.
"Certainly some lied however many honorable people testified with firsthand knowledge."
That's an assumption, not a fact. Even if they weren't intentionally lying, memories can be distorted and altered over time. Human memory is exceptionally fallible.
"Polygamy was going on in the church"
Yes, by Brigham Young and Heber Kimball.
"...and instead of destroying the Nauvoo Expositor he could have simply issued a statement in the Times and Seasons."
Joseph did not want to destroy the Expositor, and he issued multiple statements in the Times and Seasons condemning polygamy.
@@IBelieveJoseph Honorable because other contemporary people claimed they were. This is also based on their previous statements. This would include people like William Marks who was the Nauvoo Stake President.
On June 8th 1844, Joseph who was the Mayor of Nauvoo, met with the Nauvoo City Council for six and a half hours then again on June 10th for seven and a half hours. At the conclusion of the June 10th meeting the entire council, including Joseph, voted to destroy the Expositor. Nothing printed in the Expositor was false. Joseph decided to destroy it because he didn't like what it was saying and claimed it was a public nuisance.
@@Telavian I don't think that building a case entirely on what people claim about something is a good idea.
William Marks said that Joseph was not a polygamist. I quote him in the video. Did you even watch it?
Please, what is your source for Joseph voting to destroy the Expositor?
You took that quote from Zion's Harbinger in a completely different way than I did. I thought it was a false quote showing Joseph Smith having admitted that he was deceived in regards to receiving a revelation from God that plural marriage was true. But the way youre presenting it makes more sense and coincides with the other quote by Brother Marks.
Glad you got something from the video! Actually, I just dropped a new video on the subject of Marks and that quote: th-cam.com/video/yM-BmtvjL_c/w-d-xo.html
@@IBelieveJosephI will check it out!
Two things: (1) Hyrum Smith became a polygamist, and (2) what about Cowdery’s allegation of Smith having an filthy affair. Please comment on these.
First, Hyrum did not become a polygamist. Not only is the evidence for that even weaker than with Joseph, Hyrum explicitly said that "God has not commanded anyone to have more than one wife." th-cam.com/video/QxVtJvgvHAs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5Bp15Son-n1ivSdJ
Second, "affair" in the 1800 did not have the modern connotation of extramarital sexual activity. webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/affair And even if it did, an accusation is not evidence.
@@IBelieveJoseph Please tackle the evidence on both of these issues. It is widely accepted that Hyrum practiced plural marriage and that Oliver was referring to Joesph’s sexual activity.
@@Jjj53214 Well, I don't really care what's "widely accepted." What I care about is the truth. The "evidence" for Hyrum's polygamy consists of accusations. That's it. Oliver may have assumed at first that something sexual happened, but the words he used in the document you referred to do not necessarily indicate that. The misconceptions around that are so prevalent though, that it may be worth a video in the future. Thanks for the idea!
@@IBelieveJoseph Where there is smoke, there is often (although not always) fire. I would like it if Smith was not a polygamist. It would be ideal if all the many affidavits, interviews, accusations, and allegations from his associates were false. However, it is important simply as a matter of objectivity to at least accept the possibility that he may have indeed practiced sexual plural marriage.
I have done my research into this and what I have found is JS did polygamy but the days he was marrying these women were their choice and secondly they were around 9 months pregnant
Joseph Smith never said he wasn't a polygamist. The Book of Mormon also condemns secret signs and tokens, yet that's what the temple is. Joseph Smith theology changed as he progressed, hence the differences.
Thanks for your comment! Joseph absolutely said that he was not a polygamist. He may not have used those exact words, but you'd have to be pretty obtuse to not understand what he's saying, here for instance: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zLQEfWMoG1r_G-sn.
As for the temple ordinances, Michelle Stone has pretty credibly demonstrated that Brigham invented them: th-cam.com/video/S4pHzYtAOeg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vAnHZ7W8e19mDNfc
@IBelieveJoseph so did Joseph Smith. Scholarly work means scholars go where the evidence leads them. Faith in God and still finding value in the LDS community are separate topics. I'll never understand why it is so difficult to take real, proven historical evidence and move forward, even though it is disturbing. Have you read the happiness letter? Have you ever talked to people who's husband's did terrible things that caused them such anquish and can't verbalize or talk about it truthfully? Even the community of christ faces this issue head on, and even as a LDS member, I'd say they follow the core doctrines closer than the Brighamites, which other sects call us. I had to face my temple working, high counselman ex was sleeping with men. I hated it but had to face it and move forward. I can't excuse Joseph either. Poor Emma
Have any of the descendants of the offspring of Hyrum Smith’s supposed plural wives been genetically tested to see if Hyrum had children with any of them?
@jakesgardening2622 Good question. I don't know of any women making a claim of having children from Hyrum as a plural wife.
Okay lets look at them ( i think you reversed your order)
#1 Joseph kind of sort of condemns polygamy
Which is kind of sort of true, if you read the actual words to the best we know them Joseph never flatly condemns polygamy even though he is under criminal charge for polygamy. He usually says he has authority or "keys" to allow "restoration" and thus he never flatly denies polygamy.
#2 Joseph and Hyrum and Emma consistently condemn polygamy
This is simply wrong. Hyrum was against it as was Emma and both were forced to accept it in their lives. Hyrum married 2 additional wives less than a year before his death. Emma shared her "mansion" with Joseph's other wives. In all accounts Emma did not take polygamy well.
#3 Brigham Young was a Liar
Well that is really unrelated, apologist use it as a backward explanation, however it is unrelated for example the Expositor was written by a member of the twelve and never even mentions Brigham, and is written too early for Brigham's hand and it contains D&C 132 ( which is huge)
#4 Poor Quality of Evidence for Joseph being a polygamous
2 affidavits and a criminal charge were issued before Joseph's murder. 3 plural wives testified in court it was true in every form. An a public newspaper printed the detail, which the mob destroyed rather than answered
#5 No children
Emma needed 6 years to meet that standard (living DNA strain). 20 year old Joseph with a young pretty wife didn't meet the standard for 6 years. So why would you expect a 37 year old Joseph to meet it in a night or week? The Expositor states once Joseph had his fun the girl was quickly sent away. So if you look at how many attempts Joseph and Emma likely had when Joseph was 20-26 verses the short flings it is highly likely Joseph wasn't that fertile and is plural attempts were drastically smaller in number. It should also be noted that the 2 children falsely attributed to Joseph from plural wives make sense if they were practicing activities that make children and make no sense if they were celibate relationships.
There are some skeptic issues here maybe not intentional but it is critical to use the same standard both ways. Joseph worked through others. Others wrote most everything, Joseph went to great lengths to avoid writing and thus much more is hearsay than usually however the choose to accept this and the choose to reject that should be applied equally both ways. For example Joseph was tarred, feather and scheduled for castration some say over a land deal, others say over a 19 year old girl. I ask you which would seem to fit better? And finally the whole Fannie Alger issue the problem there is when as much as what.
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Allow me to offer some corrections.
Joseph absolutely did explicitly condemn polygamy. "Joseph forbids it, and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife." th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.html
The only "evidence" that Hyrum and Emma accepted polygamy is the testimony of polygamists decades later.
Brigham Young being a liar is absolutely important, because he's the primary accuser of Joseph. Every other Mormon who accused Joseph was dependent on Brigham one way or another.
Being accused of a crime doesn't make someone guilty. The side the plural wives were testifying for lost the case--the judge and jury found their testimony unconvincing. The paper was destroyed by the sheriff following an official order, not by a "mob." And many other papers were printing similar things but were not destroyed by "mobs."
Interesting thoughts about the children, and I admitted the possibility. But it's still a big discrepancy, since in the same time frame Brigham and Heber were already siring children on their plural wives.
The inescapable facts are that Joseph and his family consistently denied it, and no woman accused him of it until decades later when they were under Brigham's control in Utah.
@@IBelieveJoseph I think there are a lot of errors in that post, I do understand you believe it. I also understand there will be no definitive proof available to us at this time However lets look at the best of the previous post which is the journal reference. Simply who wrote it the exact writing you are looking at? D&C 101 (1835) and D&C 109?(1844) would seem to be what is referenced in that journal. So I see as important but not convincing. The primary reason I would not consider it convincing is it is typical of accounts from the time. So why would I accept this account more important than first hand accounts? This account is a transcript just to give this transcript equal weigh, not superior weight, but equal weight, we need testimony from the author. He needs to confirm it was his actual writing and no one else's and explain the apparent inconsistencies. For example it is a very high quality writing to be done while walking, and it makes no contextual sense, nothing related proceeds it or follows it.
I referred to this in the initial posts why dismiss multiple direct first hand accounts under oath, while accepting a written statement which has not been authenticated?
I agree with the others who responded to you. I believe in Joseph, and I believe Brigham is a liar.
@@ernestcook4285 Thank you , I dont think anyone will seriously contest that however I don't see its relevance. There are dozens of polygamy/affair/adultery issues outside of Brigham. Just for a simple example the excommunication related to Fanny Alger, if false it would have provided a need to stamp out any hints of these issues in the future, and that was opposite what happened.
@Whats Up quite a difference between the 2 men, Joseph translated the BOM , organized the church, and saw God. Brigham changed scripture in DC ,ordained polygamy , is a liar, and had culpability knowledge and responsibility of the Mountain Meadow massacre. So by their works, who are you prone to believe? Me, I believe Joseph.
I could be wrong in my comment below but I got my information from Don Bradly who is a historian
You kind of have to close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears to come up with something this ridiculous. I mean you have to be dedicated to ignoring reality.
Do you have any specific criticisms of specific evidence or claims in the video?
Just keep giving 10% and keep your head in the sand. We all need more shopping malls
Sure puppy. Try not to smoke too much pot. It kills brain cels. You need all you got.
@littlewingmyoho your message is not thought out. These guys are not giving an honest story. And why are you reading the Book of Mormon in the first place? Are you doing it for an honest reason? Do you want to know if it's true? Have you even read the Bible? If you were reading the Old Testament, you'd say the same thing? It's all about honesty. Try it some time.
@littlewingmyoho Well, good luck to you. Clearly, you haven't found God yet. To receive, you first have to give, or at least ask. Would help if you didn't listen to lies.
@littlewingmyoho really. Well, try not insulting before you accuse someone of it. And you definitely don't know God. Is the truth an insult?
@@WatchingwaitingG2DJoseph Smith was a false prophet he said Jesus was coming back in 1891 he said that the Quakers on the moon how can you trust a liar
And why was JS tarred and feathered?
Um polyandry maybe?
pure genuine bullshit!!!!.....was was polygamist !!!!
@melmetz5122 Thank you for your barely coherent comment! I hope you at least watched the video.
There is literally a website called the wives of Joseph Smith distance from a member of the church
If you ever doubt Joseph Smith, go to the source. Go inside the LDS Temple in Independence, Missouri and read the books of Abraham and Joseph. It's not like he got the Book of Mormon from some dead guy. Anyone can examine the original Gold Plates for themselves.
Remember what Christ said...
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert [wilderness]; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
The Nauvoo Expositor begs to disagree. Why destroy a contemporaneous record of his "whoredoms"?
Why wouldn’t William Law keep contemporaneous evidence of the revelation if it in fact existed and was in his possession? He apparently just handed the evidence back and THEN threw a fit? Furthermore, the most shocking part in D&C 132 by far says that Emma Smith could be destroyed, but nobody who claimed they saw the revelation mention anything about it?
You seem to be insinuating that Joseph wanted to destroy the Expositor to hide his polygamy.
Not only would that have not worked, since many other newspapers were printing similar stories, but there are multiple accounts stating that the city council ordered that destruction of the paper against Joseph's wishes. But Brigham Young was sure happy that it was destroyed: th-cam.com/video/5LsRA7Liyk0/w-d-xo.html
@@IBelieveJoseph The minutes are freely available in the JSP project and clearly list the "mayor" making many statements about its destruction.
Joseph even wrote a letter to Governor Ford justifying the destruction.
In the minutes of the meeting discussing the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, there was a man who came forward to testify that the same printing press had tried to hire him to make plates to print counterfeit money. They were afraid that the news of fake money would bring mobs that would connect it to the Mormons. Since the Kirkland safety society printing fake money is partially what brought the mobs to Kirkland in the first place, this was a valid concern.
Joseph didn't just want to destroy it, he did!
One of those sources that you quoted was actually a man who talk to Joseph, when he was in jail, and the statements of Joseph, or about him regretting the fact that he was involved with polygamy it was Joseph saying that polygamy would be his downfall. It wasn’t Joseph Smith denouncing other people in the church practicing with me. It was him regretting his own activities.
I actually have an entire video about how that's wrong: th-cam.com/video/yM-BmtvjL_c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=sDozD-RJ31On81Yh
He definetly he was mit married to any women accept Emma, he regretted teaching The New Everlasting Covenant multiple marriage.
@SmilingOutdoorGrill-np3xp Thanks for your comment! I've never seen any evidence that Joseph taught "multiple marriage." He and Hyrum explicitly taught that polygamy was an abomination. Check out my other videos to see more. Like this one: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8HlPZhpMc_SeU6w9
BOM is written by Joe smith himself 😂😂😂
Zero evidence DNA and archeological 😂😂😂😂
JST gets absolutely demolished by the Dead Sea scrolls in this Old Testament translation 😂😂😂
Your excessive emoji use definitely makes you seem like a credible scholar who has thoroughly examined these issues.
@@IBelieveJoseph thanks you’re just as credible as broseph smith 🤣
Lol, mormon apologetics crack me up. Always twisting their history to benefit their crazy beliefs, it becomes a full time job.
It's not that they can't get anything right, necessarily. It's that they're not looking for the truth, but are looking for whatever will defend their beliefs.
@@IBelieveJoseph well put.
Read No man Knows my history. Written by David O Mckays niece. Your in denial my man. Your a great apologist for the church.
@TheMormonAtheist Hey! Thank you for your comment. I have read excepts of No Man Knows My History. It's awful! I try to deal in primary sources--Ms. Brodie dealt in rumors and innuendo.
I'm not sure what you mean about me being an apologist for the (LDS?) church. The LDS Church teaches that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I share evidence that they're wrong. That's the opposite of an apologist.
This is incorrect. Joseph was not legally married to anyone other than Emma his wife. He was sealed to other sisters. Plural marriage is not Polygamy. Plural marriage was legal and still is. Polygamy is illegal and still is. They are not the same.
@michaelparks5669 Thank you for your comment! From what I've seen, Joseph and Hyrum did not make any distinction between plural marriage, polygamy, and spiritual wifery in their condemnations. Joseph specifically condemned "plurality of wives," as I document here: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3nyNhZnvR7rtcbZ9
The distinctions seem to have grown up as people tried to make sense of Brigham's lies. If you've seen anything from Joseph or Hyrum specifying a difference between "plural wives" and polygamy, please share.
@@IBelieveJoseph Joseph Smith did make a distinction. The law makes a distinction. Joseph Smith denied he was practicing polygamy. Did you not know that? Polygamy correctly called "bigamy" is a legal term. It means to register in a court of law more than one individual as your spouse. It is illegal. There are no such registered marriages involving Joseph Smith. Thus he was telling the truth. Plural marriage is a religious term It means to declare more than one spouse as one's own with mutual consent. It is legal. It is protected under the First Amendment. Joseph Smith denied he was practicing polygamy. There are no records of Joseph Smith having registering any marriage other than to his wife Emma. There has been an extensive search to find descendants of Joseph Smith by women other than his by his wife Emma. DNA evidence proves there are no known descendants of anyone being the descendent of Joseph Smith other than by his wife Emma Hale Smith. Brigham Young's lies? Explain.
BREAKING NEWS: A historical document written in Nauvoo, Illinois in 1843 has been discovered which sheds more light on Joseph Smith's polygamy practice. It was written by a 16 year old girl to whom Joseph had recently introduced the doctrine:
I looked out the window and what did I see?
The Prophet Joseph making eyes at me.
It shouldn't come as a complete surprise.
The angel told him "Try HER on for size!"
Now, I could take a powder and leave the scene,
But he'd probably send Porter huntin' after me.
I guess it must be so,
But I don't wanna be,
The prophet's wife number thirty-three.
Hey Mr. Jordan, I was interested in your claim, so I looked it up. It only took me a minute to verify what you said is false, and just a clever little poem you came up with to entertain at your presentation at the "8th Annual Ex-Mormon Conference" on October 5, 2002 in Salt Lake City, UT.
I'll give you the credit for me not recognizing the tune to which this is meant to be sung at first, and it is at very least clever. But what you've shown here is that you're not interested in truth, you're interested in pursuing the cause of convincing that Joseph was a polygamist, even to the point where you are willing to lie and intend to mislead others with so called "breaking news".
If your evidence against the subject is really as strong as I see you claim on many other videos, you wouldn't have to stoop to intentionally coming up with falsities to further your claims.
God is on the side of truth, whether that truth be that Joseph was a liar, adulterer and polygamist or that he was not. You do yourself and no one else justice by serving the author of all lies instead of the author of truth. I hope you seek God's truth above all us, and I would hope anyone is open to God revealing the truth, whatever it might be, in their honest search.
@@RiftFishing So what you're telling us is, you're a doofus with no sense of humor.
@@RiftFishing What you should rather check is the Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" on LDS official website. This essay, does bring out that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously. The footnote #24 in this essay says that according to “careful estimates,” Smith had 30 to 40 wives. It also says that most of Smith’s wives were between the ages of 20 and 40, but that he married Helen Mar Kimball when she was still 14.
Meanwhile genealogy... has a different view of joes sexual exploits
I actually have a video about that: th-cam.com/video/Od-X0SNnhDE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=P7QzibhI8TnMPCBt
So you expect I guy who was breaking the law as a bygamist and committing many taboos to admit to it. Many cheaters will never admit to cheating on their wives let alone of their entire income and reputation are ruined if it comes out.
But hey let’s just throw out the testimony of all the women that testified they were his wives or he approached them. How misogynistic. 30 women’s testimonies are less then one man’s.
So, you consider the denial of the crime as evidence?
Speaking of throwing out the testimony of women, why are you discounting the testimony of the women who said Joseph was innocent, like Emma Smith and Mary Page?
My concern with the women's testimonies is that it seems there was a huge of pressure on them - they were generally at this time married to Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball or another leader.... and there was a real interest in the church to show that polygamy was part of the original church set up by Joseph.... (driven by the church's conflict with the US government - which I think understandably put everyone in "survival mode") - so it seems to me there was an extremely strong motivation for many women (safety and survival of their families) to respond to the affidavit requests in a way that supported the church's position and were aligned with the results their leaders (whom they had testimonies were prophets, seers and revelators) desired.
Point 6 - Joseph's eye sight. Joseph by all accounts was a handsome man. I do not remember him being blind.
Then tell me why Joseph wasn't a Polygamist.? When it has been proven that he had about 40 wife's.!!! see LDS Church Documents prove it.!!!!
They prove no such thing. Many of the documents are much later accounts of people (mostly Brigham and Heber's wives) claiming that Joseph was a polygamist. Documents that are closer to Joseph's lifetime were deliberately altered to make it appear that he supported polygamy. Here's a great example: th-cam.com/video/6rW67TG8_D4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fA2a3gm76zfKfY9h
@@IBelieveJoseph What's your proof that "documents that are closer to Joseph's lifetime were deliberately altered"? And that they support that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? When in fact the LDS published Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" admits that Joseph Smith was married to multiple women simultaneously.
Nauvoo Expositot.
Wow, this is just sad. This guy flatly denies a historical truth known to all the world at the time it happened, and documented a thousand ways... a historical fact beyond any shadow of a doubt. The State of Utah was only allowed to join the United States on condition that it would abolish the polygamy that was known to everyone. And his "top 5 reasons" are so lame, so pathetic, that any ten year old child could see that this guy is an idiot.
The ability of people caught up in religious cults to deceive themselves never ceases to amaze me.
Phil Paine you my friend are the clueless one. This man’s evidence is spot on. You obviously don’t understand or realize what a sneaky snake Brigham Young was. Brigham Young was an amazing, liar. He also talked many other people into lying as well. He had multiple women write affidavits stating non-truths. In other words, lies. He had people claim they were witnesses to Joseph’s relationships with other women. That’s very easy to do when you have extreme power and control over the entire organization, and it’s also pretty easy to say whatever you want when the person you are making claims toward was a dead man, and unable to defend himself.
Joseph adamantly opposed having more than one wife. Brigham Young and many of his closest friends had numerous wives. Brigham and his best friend Heber C Kimball, had a combined total of 99 wives. Joseph Smith had only one. And that’s the honest to God truth.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm claiming the LDS church didn't practice polygamy. So I assume that you didn't watch the video.
But if you did and would like to actually criticize my reasons instead of using ad hominem, please do so. Thank you!
Great, another anti reality person who cannot grasp the history….
@rickgrimes931 What specifically did I get wrong?
@@IBelieveJoseph- You are trying to rewrite history to suggest or show that Joseph did not restore the doctrine, did not practice the doctrine and did not approve of the doctrine. What didn't you get wrong?
#josephsmithisnotapolygamist