Wes is spot on about Dune being cynical. Tolkien actually hated Dune because because there was no clear good guy or bad guy. In interviews Frank Herbert wrote Dune after WW2 as an exploration as to how and why people follow charismatic leaders to do horrible things.
And the cynicism really gets cooking in Dune Mesiah and Children of Dune. This is what i loved about the books when I read them when I did. It was not black and white and messy as the world is. I try and return to the first 3 books every 7ish years because they stay the same but I change and how I absorb them changes.
He actually never specified (as far as what I’ve looked into can tell) why he disliked it. We can only surmise. Although if you have a source for that defs share as I’m interested. The only evidence I am aware of is that letter to come one who has given him a copy after he already had one.
It always puts a huge grin on my face every time I hear Ty say "Goodbye Ty." 😆 I can clearly feel the resentment and resignation in Ty's voice. Ty does NOT like doing it. But he begrudgingly accepts that it works. The best thing about it is Ty's hate and resentment. It is the only reason it works so very well. I love it.
Bonkers as it would have been, I wish Jodorowsky had made his version of Dune. Salvador Dali and Mick Jagger with a Pink Floyd soundtrack and Geiger's designs - the world missed out on a wild cinematic experience.
I agree about the decision to cast Christopher Walken as the Emperor. TBH, I think a better choice for the Emperor would've been Kyle MacLachlan; and not just to have a bit of fan service for the 1984 film, but because he's also a better age for the Emperor than Walken was and would've given a more regal presence to the character.
Yeah none of the emperors have been well cast in any adaptations. The book specifically says he looks 35 despite being in his 70s. It would really drive home the importance of spice and how it extends life.
On the same general page with Ty (disagree with his Austin Butler feelings though). The visuals, sound, music, acting, etc are stellar, A+++. For me the story telling aspect of this though was B at best.. Like a lot of Denis movies, the vibe and craft he brings is amazing but there is a coldness, a distance to them. This one is better in this aspect than his previous movies but still has that feeling. Folks I talked to didn't get much of what was being hinted or or the importance of many of the moments. There were along for the ride but almost none of the themes and plots of the book came through to them. I also thought the transitions from scene to scene, and conveying the gravity of many of the important points were totally lost. From the attack in the first one that wasn't clear why it happened or the importance, to drinking the water of life, it was skimmed over, rushed. You didn't feel the dread of it coming nor the gravity of when it happened. A sentence or two at most addressing it ahead of time and then rushed through.
Loved the conversation between you two guys. Very true analysis by Ty, saying Part 1 left so much unexplored that Part 2 felt like a lot of things just happen. Been a listener of your podcast since the beginning due to my love of the Expanse and the book series. Keep them coming!
Interesting. I never read the books before (I started now) and the first movie was the first time I ever really came in contact with the story. Contrary to Ty's friend, I found the first movie more confusing than the second. There was so much to take in, all the characters and their motivations and relations, the world building, and so on. I wasn't totally confused, but there were moments where I was like "Who's that? What are they doing and why? What's happening?". I had that way less in the second movie, I could follow the plot relatively easy, as far as I can remember. My first statement after watching Dune II was "The first one was awesome, the second one was better." That said, I do not doubt that translating that book to a screen can only come with a huge cost. Totally agree there.
Sorry Ty. Spice didnt magically made the Space Guild 'teleport' ships. They combined maths with a small amount of foresight to plot their course through space (make sure they didnt plunge in a sun). Space ships were apparently so advanced that they could move faster than the 'normal' mind could not just plot a course like we do now. Spice didnt gave the Bene Geneserit telepathic powers. They were trained in precise observation, something they already could that before they knew spice. The telepathic coms between Paul and Alia was a sort of side effect that had to do with Pauls foresight and that Alia and Paul were very closely related. Paul called it the 'web of Tao'. Alia could see or feel Paul's 'vision's'. In a certain way they were twins in mind. It was that fact that when Paul disconnected from his sister that basicly drove her mad. Lynch made it like it was inherent to the BG spice trial result
The Dune and Children of Dune miniseries done by SciFi/Syfy weren't too bad considering the funding limitations - I think it was my preferred version over the 1984 Lynch version. Lynch was over the top with the sets and effects, yet quite disconnected in my opinion. SyFy's version was much closer to the books, and definitely not as disconnected as Lynch, but it took 6 hours for each one. This most recent version was incredible cinematically, but I don't know that I agree with how it ended - there was no reconciliation between Paul and Chani which really needs to be there to set up the sequel/next generation.
Salute of the Jugger was the international release of Blood of Heroes. Has about 10 extra minutes of minor world building....and it's got a more badass ending.
I read the Dune series in the 60s when I was in 4th grade and loved the first, was confused and disappointed with the second, annoyed with the third. I realize after hearing this podcast that I was too young/naive to enjoy seeing the potential hero choose to turn to power. I've never wanted to reread it but I've wondered why it quit working for me when it did. Thanks for clearing that up.
I tried reading Dune at 12. And was absolutely lost lol, so good on you Ty I did read it again when I was 17 and was more on my level then. Thankfully my father then pushed me to Read Enders Game and I've been a scifi guy ever since. Villeneuves Dune is amazing. Especially for people who have read atleast the first book but I'd say the first few Especially!
My wife and I are great fans of the Literature of Science Fiction, so Dune is near the top of our list. We viewed Part 1 as an introduction, and waited on Part 2 to have a firm opinion. We both came away with a bad case of brain cramp to our lore brains, while appreciating Dune for the cinematic tour de force which it was. It was hands down the best visual presentation to date. As adaptations go, we hold it to be in second place to the SciFi mini-series. Our greatest complaint about Dune (p1 & p2) as adaptations were the very poor adaptations of Jessica, Chani, and Hara, and the slighting of the Bene Gesserit, the Mentats, and the Spacing Guild.
I think for the portion of the fandom already invested in the story, Denis had a confidence about the existing knowledge of these fans, and set out to make a movie that both took advantage but didn't require it. (somewhat elevated, I hope that makes sense to someone!)
I'm a straight mix of both of these points of view. I agree that they had to make movies that work on 2 levels, one for total newbies based entirely on emotion and one for book readers who would see more in it (easter eggs i guess). However, i also totally get that even that has ended up giving us a story that really doesn't cover (despite a 3 movie run time presumably) all of the ideas and complexities in this universe. I remember just being so disappointed with the first movie that they were taking so much time over (story-wise) unimportant 'texture' while not even covering half of the first book and not stopping at the built in, obvious and useful time jump that would have given so much more time and space to explore what they needed to for the second film. I just don't get why they didn't take advantage of that.
Nice to hear the take on Dune 1 & 2. This gave me an opportunity to appreciate the movie more given the complexities of the film adaptation of Frank Herbert’s books/vision given Ty’s view. Sets and costumes were amazing. The character twists were disappointing. I am not sure they decided to change those arch’s. I didn’t see the point. Good show guys!
The 3 Dune prequel books were written in a very Star Wars way. Which isn't all that surprising considering who one of the authors was. However, those novels would translate exceptionally well into a multi-season mini series or show because of it. The problem is that because those books are more pop sci fi rather than intellectual sci fi, the fans who like Dune hate those. And they often struggle to put aside any differences to allow themselves to enjoy them. I liked the new Dune movies for the vibes and experience rather than what it makes me think about. Also, hearkening on the viewer experiences you guys speak to. The first movie couldn't be as information dense as it truly should have been or it would have alienated the more broad audience. Was the second movie not even green lit until the first proved it could make good money? I agree on Feyd. His depiction felt very detached from the world around him in a way that diminished his lethality.
Jorodowsky went on to make a comic series, the Incal, when Dune didn't work out. The Incal has a cult following but it's also trippy. It did spawn some side stories that i found more interesting, like the metabarons
Next review “scavengers Reign” A mix of Moebius and Studio Gibli please! And tell Dennis villeneuve to film the 7,8 and 9 the expanse books. Thanks guys
The fact that RobertJordan took so much from this book to make his epic is a good sign. And i got more Wheel of time from this movie than 2 seasons of the series amazon f-ed up
Damn, Wes appears to be smarter than Ty (@ min 37). This is a 3 part series to make a likely 9 hour epic for the first two books. The 3rd person omniscient storytelling is akin to a text scroll. Both the Lynch movie and the first books use Irulan to explain the complexities of this universe. D. Villeneuve not only hit this out of the park attempted to tell the story visually. Just amazing.
My guess is that the Spacing Guild is being saved as the baddies for part 3. I see them as secret partners of the Emperor that has been forced into action to protect their addiction.
Think you guys are over-thinking it honestly. Yes, I agree that changes have to be made to the film when converting it from the book. (And yes, I've read the book twice, I've also read "Messiah" and "Children" and "God Emperor" and you can stop with "Children" in my opinion, but that's another matter), it then comes down to how willing are you going to be to accept the changes? There's a number of background details that are minimized or left out of the DV movies (the 80s movie sucked, the Sci-Fi miniseries was earnest but underfunded as you say, so I'm only talking about Villeneuve's movies from this point forward) and we can argue and debate whether or not those omissions matter and how much, but I don't think they matter all that much because Villeneuve knows the source material, loves it, and has captured the essence of it even when he's changed some things around. For example, it was pure genius to compress the timeline in the movies, because it avoided having 1-2 year old Alia (among other things) walking around talking and stabbing people and just looking silly (there's no way in a movie you can make that not look silly.) Even the Harkonnens, which were always the weak link in the book...just cartoonishly evil...are done about as well as they can be done in these movies (still cartoonishly evil, but genuinely menacing too.) I don't know how anyone can do the book better or with more justice than has been done by Villeneuve in these two parts. I can go back and rewatch these anytime, whereas something like "Star Wars," which I was a big fan of the first trilogy in younger days...even that first trilogy just looks pretty pale anymore..."Dune Lite" I guess. There's a lot more depth to "Dune" (book and movie) than that.
Hey wasn't Zardoz supposed to be on that list? Isn't that in the T&TG rules by now? 😂 Villeneuve Dune is magnificent. I haven't completely read the books, but it did feel like there was something(s) missing- though not all the things were necessary. I think he said they were basically using the book as the screenplay. So they must have painted in just enough details to make the dialogue make sense. A daring approach but overall he made it work as a film. The soundtrack is half of that (although the constant cinematic "big moment" cues got to the edge of tiresome by the end). Seeing it on the big screen re-awakened my love for big screen sci-fi.
Neither my wife or my daughter has read any of the books. My daughter (19) absolutely loved these movies, and she actually did pick up on quite a few of the details that I wasn't sure she would catch. Afterwards, I showed her the Lynch Dune and she really liked the quasi steam punk vibe it gives, visually. She's always been a *huge* fan of practical effects over CGI, even though they have their limitations. But she thought the story was a total mess (which it is, especially when they speed-ran the last 40 minutes). My wife was bewildered by it and was counting the minutes down until it ended. Understood the overall idea, but was confused by a lot of the details and characters.
Dune had a big box office. Think it can work on two levels as Ty was saying. 1st level a coherent simple emotional story with great visuals and cinematography and 2nd put in a lot of the intellectual elements subtly with enough info so people who know the books enjoy it. Loved the movies. Glad Deni did two parts. Epic! Movies without intelligence or good philosophy elements bore me. Expanse was philosophical and original but had explored over them for six season. If Herbert was alive it would be interesting to see what he would do with a multi season format? He was prolific. Would take mega $$ as they point out.
Yeah, part 2 is a mess. Not only because they had to cram so much into it, but also oversimplified lots of things. The main one being the core message of the book about charismatic leaders. The book treats Paul as a protagonist who is taking a dangerous and questionable path. The movie just makes him into a blatant anti-hero - completely unsympathetic, which rids the movie of a character to whom we could relate to or root for. Oh, and they made Chani insufferable. I loved part 1, hated part 2 - and now retroactively I hate both.
I agree, Fist of the Northstar is out of place here. Instead it belongs on the top 5 works of fiction EVER…..when ever they get to that. 😂 Just like with the remake of ONE PIECE, the Fist of the Northstar reboot currently in the works with better pacing and visuals will absolutely gain traction. We as a society are lost, kids need to be brought up on manime.
I’m obviously less intellectual than you guys. I enjoyed the new Dune movies for what they are, and having watched them had no desire to read the books, even less so after this pod!
I feel asleep on the first one in the theater…very slow, and I know the story LOL. I rewatched it before going to see 2, but I fell asleep AGAIN. Watched it finally after lots of coffee. Part 2 I made it through but jeezus they could easily get the whole thing out as a two parter. NO I did not read the books…didn’t have to . Got to hear every damn detail a thousand times from my nerd friends that read it (as it went with EVERY movie based on books in my whole life). It is a decent reboot of the 80s movie, however, so predictable. Probably why I fell asleep, like ok I get it, get on with it. I watched the old one, yes it is cheesy as hell, but damn it flew by and was very enjoyable. IMO the Expanse is the ONLY good thing I have seen on TV or movies in DECADES. I honestly just re-watch it over and over, never gets old.
I'm a sci-fi nerd, I've read the books several times. I watched the 1st movie with my husband, who had no former knowledge about Dune whatsoever. He didn't like it very much, because he didn't get how things worked in that universe; like, why people fight with swords when there are firearms, who the Bene Gesserit are, how the universe is governed etc. This is not explained enough for "normies" in the movie, but book readers who have that knowledge will recognize how things fit together. So I'd say the movie is primarily for people with a prior knowledge of Dune. "Normies" can watch it, but they won't get the whole picture, and they won't appreciate it as much because they won't see the little details that book readers will notice. The biggest problem imho though, is the way the last act of the 1st movie is structured. It should have ended with the attack on Arrakeen and the escape of Paul and Jessica. Right when they are "safe" out in the desert and Paul has his first glimpse of his terrible purpose, that's when it should have ended - with the big question mark that vision would have created - "what does this mean for the next movie?". That it continues after that point drags out the story after the climax in a way that is very much like the Return of the King. That's also a problem for "normies" because it makes the story lose momentum. You expect a movie to end after a big climax like the Arrakeen attack, and when it doesn't you tend to get impatient and unfocused. Also, the last "climax" of the movie shouldn't be the fight with Jamis, because that is dwarfed by the attack on Arrakeen. All of that should have been in the next movie. Moving it there, and adding more explanation about the world and more focus on the betrayal of Yueh instead, would have made the 1st movie better. Both the problems mentioned above, I can overlook because I have read the books, and now that I've talked about the books with my husband and given him the rundown of the world of Dune, it's politics and the philosophical problems presented in the books, he can too. Now he likes the 1st movie a lot more, but a movie should be able to stand on its own, without the watcher needing prior knowledge to get the basics.
Oh and Austin Butler is frikkin' AWESOME as Fayd!!! He does one of the best performances in the movie. All the thought he put into the way he portrays Fayd, from the way he talks similarly to Stellan Skarsgård's character, the baron Harkonnen, to the way he moves is next level.
Not sure if that's how he's portrayed in the book, but they did a good job of making Feyd seem almost feral, though overall the character is pretty two dimensional. One of the casualties of limited running time, I suppose.
Man, as the podcasts go by Ty is looking more and more like that scientist (Dr. Brackish Okun) in Independence Day that gets choked out by the alien in Area 51.
Different people have different perspectives, I guess. I'm more of a Dunatic than you guys (in book terms: I've read and re-read the full Frank Herbert series mutiple times and spent tons of $$$ on premium movie seating, 4K releases, blu-rays of the Lynch film and SciFy miniseries, art books, etc.). But it's clear in my mind that unless you get through at least "Children of Dune", you really don't get to see that Dune is at its heart a modern Greek tragedy (with all the moral ambiguity that entails). Herbert himself said that whether a character is seen as a hero or a villain depends on where you stop telling the story. A lot of people finish Dune (the book) thinking Paul is an archetypal hero (despite strong hints throughout). By the time they get through "Dune Messiah", they often think of Paul as the villain they didn't want (and stop reading there and then). But Herbert could well have continued his line by saying that if you tell the story to the end of the protagonist's arc, more often than not, the character is seen as a tragic figure worthy of bitter sympathy. For "Dune", that means "Children". Star Wars is unabashedly a kids' movie (that also appeals to adults with its light fluffy Hollywood action-filled, good guy/bad guy storytelling). Dune (the book) is a LOT more complex (emotionally) and especially morally ambiguous - not the stuff of kids' movies at all but in effect what Star Wars "borrowed" from and dumbed down. To reduce Dune to a simple allegory ("Beware of heoes/messiahs") as this discussion emphasized is to overplay the intellectual dimensions (which I do love but at times find a tad "preachy" to my taste) at the expense of what is FAR from an emotionally/morally simple story. Villeneuve specializes in films of moral ambiguity that don't overly hold viewers' hands with a lot of exposition. He almost always tells his stories from the perspective of an imperfectly informed, often female character (Chani in this case). Seeing events through that character's eyes, the moviegoer isn't usually SUPPOSED to know what's happening in a Villeneuve film (until they ARE supposed to, that is...) All this poses a challenge for fans of the book who know where the story is "supposed" to go - with its weird omniscient narrator voice and TONS of exposition (philosophical and otherwise) that can't be translated into film. The Dune films are definitely Villeneuve's take on the story - one that's still setting the stage for the fundamental reveals to come. (Newbies have no idea yet of everything "big" in what Paul has seen with his freshly forged omniscience and they're bound to find his dilemma gut-wrenching and thought-provoking - as most of his films are.) The next film will take us to the (desperate) "villain" stage (where you see what you think is the end of Paul's story and have very ambiguous feelings about). Then the question is whether we get the full multi-generational tragedy (Herbert adopted the name "Atreides" from Greek myth for a reason) that only comes to a head in a certain father-and-son scene on a sand dune near the end of "Children". And also whether today's movie-going public is ready for a 3- or 4-film series that ends up as a Greek tragedy... I have no idea how that will play out, but will be along for the ride the whole way...
Hm, but the second movie is even simpler than the first. It tries even harder to not be confusing. That's the flaw for me, part 1 alludes to the complexity at least. But part 2 completely cuts it out
Books with deep story's like Dune or even like Ender Games 1000000% need to be series over movies, the time length of movies just won't give these story's justice.
Paul is the focal point for all of the human beings who had ever lived and all of the human beings who ever might have a chance at living in order to provide for the conditions that brought about the existence of The God Emperor. Without Leto II, all of humanity comes to an end. The entire summed genome of humanity across time is expressing itself through these people to create the conditions for survival, and Paul and ultimately Leto II are at the very center of it. This is why Paul is not the good guy or the bad guy, nor was that Herbert's intent. He is exactly what fate, as dictated by humanity's quest for true survival, has demanded he be by creating all of the necessary and precise conditions for a human like him to exist.
I think the best description of those films I've seen was actually yours, when in a podcast way back you said about the first one something along the lines of "it's the best film about the things that happen in Dune, not about the philosophy of Dune". And I believe it translates well into the second part as well.
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them". it was not about men against machine, it was about men against men WITH machines sociopolitical
I feel that Denis' deal with Chani was that he used her as a storytelling device to objectify Paul's inner struggle for audience to understand. By not giving here more proactive role he simply left her at the same level of inaction and irrelevance as she is in the book thus keeping the main plot structure intact.
The Butlerian Jihad is mentioned several times in the first book. The abilities of the Bene Geserit, the Mentats and the Guild Navigators are described as a result of genetic manipulation, and not "space magic". Also: Rebecca Ferguson refused to read the book, because she assumed that the book was "sexist" and "dated".
So much a** kissing in these comments. 'I agree with Ty' like a thousand times. DV didn't make and never intended to make book movies. He made a version of the Herbert story that would be theatrically proficient, thought provoking, fun, beautiful, faithful to the books, and still get Herbert's message/s across. Which he did. In spades. These are artists we are dealing with. Not historians. This is like criticizing Van Gough about how Starry Night is inaccurate because stars aren't realistically that big in the sky. So the source material wasn't followed (reality) and the changes he made to the night sky could have been better. You ever heard someone do a cover of a song you love? It'll never be the same because you can't stop comparing it to the original. All you have to do is stop doing that and enjoy it for what it is. It gets easier with practice. (of course some covers suck, probably not the best example)
If I agree with the take of one of my fav ever authors does that mean I'm supposed to write a book yes ok cool brb gonna go write a long novel that no one will read so nobody will be able to tell me its trash so we will all assume its a masterpiece okay byeeeeeeeeeee PS get wes a pop filter
Read Dune and Dune Messiah and stop there. Those two books tell a complete story and are good. The two books were also written together. There is a reason Villeneuve has chosen to do a trilogy of movies if these two books only. Children of Dune was written after the first two books and it isn’t great and is really a set up for the rest of the series that IMO are best left unread.
Before I hear your comments, I would say that Dennis is amazing BUT the problems with the film are inherent to the medium of film in a theatrical setting. I would beg him to recut his footage into a 10 part miniseries. I KNOW he has the footage to do it. It would be SO much better.
I love you guys, but please look up the correct pronunciation of Denis Villeneuve. I'm not French, but I know a little, and I always stumble over how both of you are saying it. Apart from that: Don't change a thing!
I'd disagree with Ty in that i didn't read the books but i got all of these narratives of hydroeconomy, false messiah and i'd agree that i'd love move time but i think a lot of what he wants is in the movie it's just not spoonfed and dumb viewers will kinda missinterpret. But people are dumb.
Butlerian Jihad was NOT about the fear machines would take over the human race in a Terminator way (still a great movie BTW), but about a revolt that exposed human development stagnation. pple were too lazy too think/develop, computers/thinking machines were in the way of human development and couldf not be trusted in their predicted outcome. After that the Mentat schools and Bene Geserit Society were created. With the discovery of Spice, the Benegeserit development took a sharp turn (the BG started with development of precisize objervation and total nerve and muscle control) with their ancestral knowledge in female lineage (prolly a reference to Jewish lineage) and the start of the Space Guild. Technology was not completely abandoned. Ix and Richese still produced 'forbidden' technology.
Can't believe how much I disagree with Ty on this one... Dune 2 was one of my favorite movies of all time, top 10 possibly top 5. The story was incredibly tight and multi-layered. I think Ty fell into the "Book Readers Fallacy" on this one, being too tied to the book and/or previous canon/versions of the story. But thats OK since he is an author LOL Paul's motivations went through three acts. His original motivations were out of Duty and Family. Then the visons of Chani and meeting her lead to his motivations changing to love and all the trappings involved with it. And finally with his decision to take the water of life, his motivation becomes strictly about survival... He uses the Fremen and his power in order for himself and family to SURVIVE the future, at the cost of love. Chani had a lot to do... She was the viewers guide into Fremen culture, physically engaged in much of the on screen fighting, taught Paul the ways of the Fremen, and was ultimately the representation of the life Paul truly wanted yet had to sacrifice in order to survive. Without her in the story, Pauls story is significantly weaker and less compelling. There was also no discussion about the amazing scene with Paul addressing the council. That was a scene I've never seen in ANYTHING before.
The Chani from the book is a Fremen, a desert creature, and if we know anything about the Fremen, they are efficient. To a Fremen, love is not drama, love is not complicated, if it is, it is ended immediately. Chani believed in Paul's precognition and visions for the greening of Dune, and trusted him inexplicably. The movie version of her irritated me, the devide between the Northern Fundamentalists and the Southern revolutionaries was not from the book, and just muddies the relationship between Paul and Chani.
![Mass Effect 3 Legendary Edition (Insanity) / Platinum Playthrough / Part 9 [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GjL7gwUf5-E/mqdefault.jpg)
Wes is spot on about Dune being cynical. Tolkien actually hated Dune because because there was no clear good guy or bad guy. In interviews Frank Herbert wrote Dune after WW2 as an exploration as to how and why people follow charismatic leaders to do horrible things.
And the cynicism really gets cooking in Dune Mesiah and Children of Dune. This is what i loved about the books when I read them when I did. It was not black and white and messy as the world is. I try and return to the first 3 books every 7ish years because they stay the same but I change and how I absorb them changes.
Dune is grimdark.
He actually never specified (as far as what I’ve looked into can tell) why he disliked it. We can only surmise. Although if you have a source for that defs share as I’m interested. The only evidence I am aware of is that letter to come one who has given him a copy after he already had one.
@@stanthechanman Warhammer 40K steals (lovingly) from dune above all else, so its absolutely grimdark.
It always puts a huge grin on my face every time I hear Ty say "Goodbye Ty." 😆
I can clearly feel the resentment and resignation in Ty's voice. Ty does NOT like doing it. But he begrudgingly accepts that it works. The best thing about it is Ty's hate and resentment. It is the only reason it works so very well. I love it.
I think we need at least another hour of dune talk.
The podcast must flow.
Bonkers as it would have been, I wish Jodorowsky had made his version of Dune. Salvador Dali and Mick Jagger with a Pink Floyd soundtrack and Geiger's designs - the world missed out on a wild cinematic experience.
Leettssss goooo Expanse and Dune, top tier sci-fi
Ty, you absolutely must read God Emperor of Dune!
‘Nuff said . . . ✌️😎
It's the core of the entire series.
Was about to say. Finishing Children and skipping on God Emps. What a waste.
I agree about the decision to cast Christopher Walken as the Emperor. TBH, I think a better choice for the Emperor would've been Kyle MacLachlan; and not just to have a bit of fan service for the 1984 film, but because he's also a better age for the Emperor than Walken was and would've given a more regal presence to the character.
Even Kyle M. would have looked to old for the role (canonically speaking).
Yeah none of the emperors have been well cast in any adaptations. The book specifically says he looks 35 despite being in his 70s. It would really drive home the importance of spice and how it extends life.
I love Walken in anything he's in, except dune 2. Bad casting choice
I was waiting for this since I saw the movie! Love hearing your guys' take on one of my favorite sci fi stories and world!
On the same general page with Ty (disagree with his Austin Butler feelings though). The visuals, sound, music, acting, etc are stellar, A+++. For me the story telling aspect of this though was B at best.. Like a lot of Denis movies, the vibe and craft he brings is amazing but there is a coldness, a distance to them. This one is better in this aspect than his previous movies but still has that feeling.
Folks I talked to didn't get much of what was being hinted or or the importance of many of the moments. There were along for the ride but almost none of the themes and plots of the book came through to them. I also thought the transitions from scene to scene, and conveying the gravity of many of the important points were totally lost. From the attack in the first one that wasn't clear why it happened or the importance, to drinking the water of life, it was skimmed over, rushed. You didn't feel the dread of it coming nor the gravity of when it happened. A sentence or two at most addressing it ahead of time and then rushed through.
Sci-fi desert dystopia: Snow in the Desert (a short story episode from Love, Death and Robots)
Loved the conversation between you two guys. Very true analysis by Ty, saying Part 1 left so much unexplored that Part 2 felt like a lot of things just happen. Been a listener of your podcast since the beginning due to my love of the Expanse and the book series. Keep them coming!
Interesting. I never read the books before (I started now) and the first movie was the first time I ever really came in contact with the story. Contrary to Ty's friend, I found the first movie more confusing than the second. There was so much to take in, all the characters and their motivations and relations, the world building, and so on. I wasn't totally confused, but there were moments where I was like "Who's that? What are they doing and why? What's happening?".
I had that way less in the second movie, I could follow the plot relatively easy, as far as I can remember. My first statement after watching Dune II was "The first one was awesome, the second one was better."
That said, I do not doubt that translating that book to a screen can only come with a huge cost. Totally agree there.
Nausicaa Valley of the Wind is a great sci fi wasteland movie.
Sorry Ty. Spice didnt magically made the Space Guild 'teleport' ships. They combined maths with a small amount of foresight to plot their course through space (make sure they didnt plunge in a sun). Space ships were apparently so advanced that they could move faster than the 'normal' mind could not just plot a course like we do now. Spice didnt gave the Bene Geneserit telepathic powers. They were trained in precise observation, something they already could that before they knew spice. The telepathic coms between Paul and Alia was a sort of side effect that had to do with Pauls foresight and that Alia and Paul were very closely related. Paul called it the 'web of Tao'. Alia could see or feel Paul's 'vision's'. In a certain way they were twins in mind. It was that fact that when Paul disconnected from his sister that basicly drove her mad. Lynch made it like it was inherent to the BG spice trial result
Thanks for clearing up these misconceptions really well
Well stated.
The Dune and Children of Dune miniseries done by SciFi/Syfy weren't too bad considering the funding limitations - I think it was my preferred version over the 1984 Lynch version. Lynch was over the top with the sets and effects, yet quite disconnected in my opinion. SyFy's version was much closer to the books, and definitely not as disconnected as Lynch, but it took 6 hours for each one. This most recent version was incredible cinematically, but I don't know that I agree with how it ended - there was no reconciliation between Paul and Chani which really needs to be there to set up the sequel/next generation.
Julie Cox, mmmmm
Spot on Ty, I agree on all points
Salute of the Jugger was the international release of Blood of Heroes. Has about 10 extra minutes of minor world building....and it's got a more badass ending.
Love you guys, Ty at home and Wes at a pub lol this podcast is like Spice, it must flow!
I read the Dune series in the 60s when I was in 4th grade and loved the first, was confused and disappointed with the second, annoyed with the third. I realize after hearing this podcast that I was too young/naive to enjoy seeing the potential hero choose to turn to power. I've never wanted to reread it but I've wondered why it quit working for me when it did. Thanks for clearing that up.
One of my favourite episodes so far
It's a long time since I've seen it, but 'Hardware' freaked me out. I haven't seen 'Cherry 2000'; now I have to.
I tried reading Dune at 12. And was absolutely lost lol, so good on you Ty
I did read it again when I was 17 and was more on my level then. Thankfully my father then pushed me to Read Enders Game and I've been a scifi guy ever since. Villeneuves Dune is amazing. Especially for people who have read atleast the first book but I'd say the first few Especially!
29:11 It's been a long time... but I feel like the 4th and 5th books, (certainly one of them,) was at least on par with the original.
Thanks guys
Everything Ty says... 100%!!
My wife and I are great fans of the Literature of Science Fiction, so Dune is near the top of our list. We viewed Part 1 as an introduction, and waited on Part 2 to have a firm opinion.
We both came away with a bad case of brain cramp to our lore brains, while appreciating Dune for the cinematic tour de force which it was. It was hands down the best visual presentation to date.
As adaptations go, we hold it to be in second place to the SciFi mini-series.
Our greatest complaint about Dune (p1 & p2) as adaptations were the very poor adaptations of Jessica, Chani, and Hara, and the slighting of the Bene Gesserit, the Mentats, and the Spacing Guild.
i'm the same ...
aah, finally I get my weekly fix again. Was very distraught. ♥
I think for the portion of the fandom already invested in the story, Denis had a confidence about the existing knowledge of these fans, and set out to make a movie that both took advantage but didn't require it. (somewhat elevated, I hope that makes sense to someone!)
I'm a straight mix of both of these points of view. I agree that they had to make movies that work on 2 levels, one for total newbies based entirely on emotion and one for book readers who would see more in it (easter eggs i guess). However, i also totally get that even that has ended up giving us a story that really doesn't cover (despite a 3 movie run time presumably) all of the ideas and complexities in this universe.
I remember just being so disappointed with the first movie that they were taking so much time over (story-wise) unimportant 'texture' while not even covering half of the first book and not stopping at the built in, obvious and useful time jump that would have given so much more time and space to explore what they needed to for the second film. I just don't get why they didn't take advantage of that.
Nice to hear the take on Dune 1 & 2. This gave me an opportunity to appreciate the movie more given the complexities of the film adaptation of Frank Herbert’s books/vision given Ty’s view. Sets and costumes were amazing. The character twists were disappointing. I am not sure they decided to change those arch’s. I didn’t see the point. Good show guys!
Enjoyed this one guys!
The 3 Dune prequel books were written in a very Star Wars way. Which isn't all that surprising considering who one of the authors was. However, those novels would translate exceptionally well into a multi-season mini series or show because of it. The problem is that because those books are more pop sci fi rather than intellectual sci fi, the fans who like Dune hate those. And they often struggle to put aside any differences to allow themselves to enjoy them.
I liked the new Dune movies for the vibes and experience rather than what it makes me think about. Also, hearkening on the viewer experiences you guys speak to. The first movie couldn't be as information dense as it truly should have been or it would have alienated the more broad audience. Was the second movie not even green lit until the first proved it could make good money?
I agree on Feyd. His depiction felt very detached from the world around him in a way that diminished his lethality.
I have that same bug zapper LOL
Jorodowsky went on to make a comic series, the Incal, when Dune didn't work out. The Incal has a cult following but it's also trippy. It did spawn some side stories that i found more interesting, like the metabarons
Next review “scavengers Reign” A mix of Moebius and Studio Gibli please! And tell Dennis villeneuve to film the 7,8 and 9 the expanse books. Thanks guys
lets hope part 3 concludes it in a way us fans can bear.
Wes -- Welcome back!
The fact that RobertJordan took so much from this book to make his epic is a good sign.
And i got more Wheel of time from this movie than 2 seasons of the series amazon f-ed up
I'd love to see ty tackle some anime movies. Hard to find good writers who have seen anime from the older stuff to now.
Apparently I don't live on the desert island I thought I did. Cherry 2000 is my favorite and thought everyone else forgot about it 😂
Damn, Wes appears to be smarter than Ty (@ min 37).
This is a 3 part series to make a likely 9 hour epic for the first two books.
The 3rd person omniscient storytelling is akin to a text scroll.
Both the Lynch movie and the first books use Irulan to explain the complexities of this universe.
D. Villeneuve not only hit this out of the park attempted to tell the story visually. Just amazing.
I enjoyed the miniseries
My guess is that the Spacing Guild is being saved as the baddies for part 3. I see them as secret partners of the Emperor that has been forced into action to protect their addiction.
Do Robot Jox!
Think you guys are over-thinking it honestly. Yes, I agree that changes have to be made to the film when converting it from the book. (And yes, I've read the book twice, I've also read "Messiah" and "Children" and "God Emperor" and you can stop with "Children" in my opinion, but that's another matter), it then comes down to how willing are you going to be to accept the changes? There's a number of background details that are minimized or left out of the DV movies (the 80s movie sucked, the Sci-Fi miniseries was earnest but underfunded as you say, so I'm only talking about Villeneuve's movies from this point forward) and we can argue and debate whether or not those omissions matter and how much, but I don't think they matter all that much because Villeneuve knows the source material, loves it, and has captured the essence of it even when he's changed some things around. For example, it was pure genius to compress the timeline in the movies, because it avoided having 1-2 year old Alia (among other things) walking around talking and stabbing people and just looking silly (there's no way in a movie you can make that not look silly.) Even the Harkonnens, which were always the weak link in the book...just cartoonishly evil...are done about as well as they can be done in these movies (still cartoonishly evil, but genuinely menacing too.)
I don't know how anyone can do the book better or with more justice than has been done by Villeneuve in these two parts. I can go back and rewatch these anytime, whereas something like "Star Wars," which I was a big fan of the first trilogy in younger days...even that first trilogy just looks pretty pale anymore..."Dune Lite" I guess. There's a lot more depth to "Dune" (book and movie) than that.
I hope Ty has seen the proper version of Blood of Heroes, with the extra 5 minutes at the end.
Hey wasn't Zardoz supposed to be on that list? Isn't that in the T&TG rules by now? 😂
Villeneuve Dune is magnificent. I haven't completely read the books, but it did feel like there was something(s) missing- though not all the things were necessary. I think he said they were basically using the book as the screenplay. So they must have painted in just enough details to make the dialogue make sense. A daring approach but overall he made it work as a film. The soundtrack is half of that (although the constant cinematic "big moment" cues got to the edge of tiresome by the end). Seeing it on the big screen re-awakened my love for big screen sci-fi.
Neither my wife or my daughter has read any of the books. My daughter (19) absolutely loved these movies, and she actually did pick up on quite a few of the details that I wasn't sure she would catch. Afterwards, I showed her the Lynch Dune and she really liked the quasi steam punk vibe it gives, visually. She's always been a *huge* fan of practical effects over CGI, even though they have their limitations. But she thought the story was a total mess (which it is, especially when they speed-ran the last 40 minutes).
My wife was bewildered by it and was counting the minutes down until it ended. Understood the overall idea, but was confused by a lot of the details and characters.
Dune had a big box office. Think it can work on two levels as Ty was saying. 1st level a coherent simple emotional story with great visuals and cinematography and 2nd put in a lot of the intellectual elements subtly with enough info so people who know the books enjoy it. Loved the movies. Glad Deni did two parts. Epic! Movies without intelligence or good philosophy elements bore me. Expanse was philosophical and original but had explored over them for six season. If Herbert was alive it would be interesting to see what he would do with a multi season format? He was prolific. Would take mega $$ as they point out.
Where does Tank Girl sit in the dystopian desert list? :)
Crap I missed another good one!!😂
I am just trying to read Ty's whiteboard.
Part II Fast Battle. The Expanse X confirmed?
Ugh! Does this mean I have to watch Dune 2 so I can know what y'all are referring to🤣
Yeah, part 2 is a mess. Not only because they had to cram so much into it, but also oversimplified lots of things. The main one being the core message of the book about charismatic leaders. The book treats Paul as a protagonist who is taking a dangerous and questionable path. The movie just makes him into a blatant anti-hero - completely unsympathetic, which rids the movie of a character to whom we could relate to or root for. Oh, and they made Chani insufferable.
I loved part 1, hated part 2 - and now retroactively I hate both.
I agree, Fist of the Northstar is out of place here. Instead it belongs on the top 5 works of fiction EVER…..when ever they get to that. 😂
Just like with the remake of ONE PIECE, the Fist of the Northstar reboot currently in the works with better pacing and visuals will absolutely gain traction. We as a society are lost, kids need to be brought up on manime.
I think the storyline for Chani will be played out in Dune Messiah. Because that’s where the conflict over the religious aspects really happens.
I’m obviously less intellectual than you guys. I enjoyed the new Dune movies for what they are, and having watched them had no desire to read the books, even less so after this pod!
My wife had never see any Dune movie. I showed her the Villeneuve and Lynch. She prefers the Lynch as do I.
Hey Guys, Would be great to do a Deep Dive into the show Foundation....Sure yoo've seen it!
I feel asleep on the first one in the theater…very slow, and I know the story LOL. I rewatched it before going to see 2, but I fell asleep AGAIN. Watched it finally after lots of coffee. Part 2 I made it through but jeezus they could easily get the whole thing out as a two parter. NO I did not read the books…didn’t have to . Got to hear every damn detail a thousand times from my nerd friends that read it (as it went with EVERY movie based on books in my whole life). It is a decent reboot of the 80s movie, however, so predictable. Probably why I fell asleep, like ok I get it, get on with it. I watched the old one, yes it is cheesy as hell, but damn it flew by and was very enjoyable. IMO the Expanse is the ONLY good thing I have seen on TV or movies in DECADES. I honestly just re-watch it over and over, never gets old.
I'm a sci-fi nerd, I've read the books several times. I watched the 1st movie with my husband, who had no former knowledge about Dune whatsoever. He didn't like it very much, because he didn't get how things worked in that universe; like, why people fight with swords when there are firearms, who the Bene Gesserit are, how the universe is governed etc. This is not explained enough for "normies" in the movie, but book readers who have that knowledge will recognize how things fit together. So I'd say the movie is primarily for people with a prior knowledge of Dune. "Normies" can watch it, but they won't get the whole picture, and they won't appreciate it as much because they won't see the little details that book readers will notice.
The biggest problem imho though, is the way the last act of the 1st movie is structured. It should have ended with the attack on Arrakeen and the escape of Paul and Jessica. Right when they are "safe" out in the desert and Paul has his first glimpse of his terrible purpose, that's when it should have ended - with the big question mark that vision would have created - "what does this mean for the next movie?". That it continues after that point drags out the story after the climax in a way that is very much like the Return of the King. That's also a problem for "normies" because it makes the story lose momentum. You expect a movie to end after a big climax like the Arrakeen attack, and when it doesn't you tend to get impatient and unfocused. Also, the last "climax" of the movie shouldn't be the fight with Jamis, because that is dwarfed by the attack on Arrakeen. All of that should have been in the next movie. Moving it there, and adding more explanation about the world and more focus on the betrayal of Yueh instead, would have made the 1st movie better.
Both the problems mentioned above, I can overlook because I have read the books, and now that I've talked about the books with my husband and given him the rundown of the world of Dune, it's politics and the philosophical problems presented in the books, he can too. Now he likes the 1st movie a lot more, but a movie should be able to stand on its own, without the watcher needing prior knowledge to get the basics.
Oh and Austin Butler is frikkin' AWESOME as Fayd!!! He does one of the best performances in the movie. All the thought he put into the way he portrays Fayd, from the way he talks similarly to Stellan Skarsgård's character, the baron Harkonnen, to the way he moves is next level.
Dystopian Wasteland Movies. Turbo Kid, Stalker, Punishment Park.
...Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo
I wanted more throat singing/chanting sardukar
Also, as I listen to this discussion, I REALLY wish y'all would watch and comment on Andor.
Wes should've played Fade.
Casting Timothée Chalamet to also play Feyd Rautha would have been a bold choice.
Not sure if that's how he's portrayed in the book, but they did a good job of making Feyd seem almost feral, though overall the character is pretty two dimensional. One of the casualties of limited running time, I suppose.
Man, as the podcasts go by Ty is looking more and more like that scientist (Dr. Brackish Okun) in Independence Day that gets choked out by the alien in Area 51.
Different people have different perspectives, I guess. I'm more of a Dunatic than you guys (in book terms: I've read and re-read the full Frank Herbert series mutiple times and spent tons of $$$ on premium movie seating, 4K releases, blu-rays of the Lynch film and SciFy miniseries, art books, etc.).
But it's clear in my mind that unless you get through at least "Children of Dune", you really don't get to see that Dune is at its heart a modern Greek tragedy (with all the moral ambiguity that entails).
Herbert himself said that whether a character is seen as a hero or a villain depends on where you stop telling the story.
A lot of people finish Dune (the book) thinking Paul is an archetypal hero (despite strong hints throughout). By the time they get through "Dune Messiah", they often think of Paul as the villain they didn't want (and stop reading there and then).
But Herbert could well have continued his line by saying that if you tell the story to the end of the protagonist's arc, more often than not, the character is seen as a tragic figure worthy of bitter sympathy. For "Dune", that means "Children".
Star Wars is unabashedly a kids' movie (that also appeals to adults with its light fluffy Hollywood action-filled, good guy/bad guy storytelling).
Dune (the book) is a LOT more complex (emotionally) and especially morally ambiguous - not the stuff of kids' movies at all but in effect what Star Wars "borrowed" from and dumbed down.
To reduce Dune to a simple allegory ("Beware of heoes/messiahs") as this discussion emphasized is to overplay the intellectual dimensions (which I do love but at times find a tad "preachy" to my taste) at the expense of what is FAR from an emotionally/morally simple story.
Villeneuve specializes in films of moral ambiguity that don't overly hold viewers' hands with a lot of exposition. He almost always tells his stories from the perspective of an imperfectly informed, often female character (Chani in this case). Seeing events through that character's eyes, the moviegoer isn't usually SUPPOSED to know what's happening in a Villeneuve film (until they ARE supposed to, that is...)
All this poses a challenge for fans of the book who know where the story is "supposed" to go - with its weird omniscient narrator voice and TONS of exposition (philosophical and otherwise) that can't be translated into film.
The Dune films are definitely Villeneuve's take on the story - one that's still setting the stage for the fundamental reveals to come. (Newbies have no idea yet of everything "big" in what Paul has seen with his freshly forged omniscience and they're bound to find his dilemma gut-wrenching and thought-provoking - as most of his films are.)
The next film will take us to the (desperate) "villain" stage (where you see what you think is the end of Paul's story and have very ambiguous feelings about). Then the question is whether we get the full multi-generational tragedy (Herbert adopted the name "Atreides" from Greek myth for a reason) that only comes to a head in a certain father-and-son scene on a sand dune near the end of "Children". And also whether today's movie-going public is ready for a 3- or 4-film series that ends up as a Greek tragedy...
I have no idea how that will play out, but will be along for the ride the whole way...
Where did Wes get the notion that Baron Vladimir was intentionally injected with genetic diseases?
I feel like not enough attention was given to PITCH BLACK
Feyd should have been exactly like Paul but his opposite.
Hm, but the second movie is even simpler than the first. It tries even harder to not be confusing. That's the flaw for me, part 1 alludes to the complexity at least. But part 2 completely cuts it out
Lmao fist of the Northstar
Books with deep story's like Dune or even like Ender Games 1000000% need to be series over movies, the time length of movies just won't give these story's justice.
Paul is the focal point for all of the human beings who had ever lived and all of the human beings who ever might have a chance at living in order to provide for the conditions that brought about the existence of The God Emperor.
Without Leto II, all of humanity comes to an end. The entire summed genome of humanity across time is expressing itself through these people to create the conditions for survival, and Paul and ultimately Leto II are at the very center of it. This is why Paul is not the good guy or the bad guy, nor was that Herbert's intent. He is exactly what fate, as dictated by humanity's quest for true survival, has demanded he be by creating all of the necessary and precise conditions for a human like him to exist.
I think the best description of those films I've seen was actually yours, when in a podcast way back you said about the first one something along the lines of "it's the best film about the things that happen in Dune, not about the philosophy of Dune". And I believe it translates well into the second part as well.
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them".
it was not about men against machine, it was about men against men WITH machines
sociopolitical
I feel that Denis' deal with Chani was that he used her as a storytelling device to objectify Paul's inner struggle for audience to understand. By not giving here more proactive role he simply left her at the same level of inaction and irrelevance as she is in the book thus keeping the main plot structure intact.
no love for salute of the jugger when it comes to dystopian wasteland movies oh well just means the list is wrong
I like to maintain that Zelazny’s This Immortal is better than Dune
That was one of my first Sci Fi reads. I really loved it. Too bad no one has ever filmed this one
PS - Zelazny has always been one of my Favs
Gerard butler, russell Crowe, perhaps even Wes Chatham or Thomas Jane. I can see any of those guys making a good Conrad.
X -specially
GO WATCH TANK GIRL, WES!!!
The Road with Viggo Mortensen!
The Butlerian Jihad is mentioned several times in the first book.
The abilities of the Bene Geserit, the Mentats and the Guild Navigators are described as a result of genetic manipulation, and not "space magic".
Also: Rebecca Ferguson refused to read the book, because she assumed that the book was "sexist" and "dated".
and her lack of understanding of jessica is painful to watch
So much a** kissing in these comments. 'I agree with Ty' like a thousand times. DV didn't make and never intended to make book movies. He made a version of the Herbert story that would be theatrically proficient, thought provoking, fun, beautiful, faithful to the books, and still get Herbert's message/s across. Which he did. In spades. These are artists we are dealing with. Not historians.
This is like criticizing Van Gough about how Starry Night is inaccurate because stars aren't realistically that big in the sky. So the source material wasn't followed (reality) and the changes he made to the night sky could have been better.
You ever heard someone do a cover of a song you love? It'll never be the same because you can't stop comparing it to the original.
All you have to do is stop doing that and enjoy it for what it is. It gets easier with practice. (of course some covers suck, probably not the best example)
If I agree with the take of one of my fav ever authors does that mean I'm supposed to write a book yes ok cool brb gonna go write a long novel that no one will read so nobody will be able to tell me its trash so we will all assume its a masterpiece okay byeeeeeeeeeee PS get wes a pop filter
Read Dune and Dune Messiah and stop there. Those two books tell a complete story and are good. The two books were also written together. There is a reason Villeneuve has chosen to do a trilogy of movies if these two books only.
Children of Dune was written after the first two books and it isn’t great and is really a set up for the rest of the series that IMO are best left unread.
Before I hear your comments, I would say that Dennis is amazing BUT the problems with the film are inherent to the medium of film in a theatrical setting. I would beg him to recut his footage into a 10 part miniseries. I KNOW he has the footage to do it. It would be SO much better.
I love you guys, but please look up the correct pronunciation of Denis Villeneuve. I'm not French, but I know a little, and I always stumble over how both of you are saying it. Apart from that: Don't change a thing!
I'd disagree with Ty in that i didn't read the books but i got all of these narratives of hydroeconomy, false messiah and i'd agree that i'd love move time but i think a lot of what he wants is in the movie it's just not spoonfed and dumb viewers will kinda missinterpret. But people are dumb.
Butlerian Jihad was NOT about the fear machines would take over the human race in a Terminator way (still a great movie BTW), but about a revolt that exposed human development stagnation. pple were too lazy too think/develop, computers/thinking machines were in the way of human development and couldf not be trusted in their predicted outcome. After that the Mentat schools and Bene Geserit Society were created. With the discovery of Spice, the Benegeserit development took a sharp turn (the BG started with development of precisize objervation and total nerve and muscle control) with their ancestral knowledge in female lineage (prolly a reference to Jewish lineage) and the start of the Space Guild. Technology was not completely abandoned. Ix and Richese still produced 'forbidden' technology.
So glad to see you guys; I was worried after getting nothing last week
43:30 ty casually exploring what makes the jedi creepy
As they say about Jodorovsky's Dune, it's the best Dune movie they never made.
That is a dumb take, though!
Jodorowsky's "Dune" would have had nothing to do with Dune, except for its names and aesthetics.
No, it's called sarcasm. It's the best adaptation because they never made it.....
@@rode73
Got it!
@@rode73
In my defense, I've encountered many individuals who unironically had this view!
Can't believe how much I disagree with Ty on this one...
Dune 2 was one of my favorite movies of all time, top 10 possibly top 5. The story was incredibly tight and multi-layered.
I think Ty fell into the "Book Readers Fallacy" on this one, being too tied to the book and/or previous canon/versions of the story. But thats OK since he is an author LOL
Paul's motivations went through three acts. His original motivations were out of Duty and Family. Then the visons of Chani and meeting her lead to his motivations changing to love and all the trappings involved with it. And finally with his decision to take the water of life, his motivation becomes strictly about survival... He uses the Fremen and his power in order for himself and family to SURVIVE the future, at the cost of love.
Chani had a lot to do... She was the viewers guide into Fremen culture, physically engaged in much of the on screen fighting, taught Paul the ways of the Fremen, and was ultimately the representation of the life Paul truly wanted yet had to sacrifice in order to survive. Without her in the story, Pauls story is significantly weaker and less compelling.
There was also no discussion about the amazing scene with Paul addressing the council. That was a scene I've never seen in ANYTHING before.
The Chani from the book is a Fremen, a desert creature, and if we know anything about the Fremen, they are efficient. To a Fremen, love is not drama, love is not complicated, if it is, it is ended immediately. Chani believed in Paul's precognition and visions for the greening of Dune, and trusted him inexplicably. The movie version of her irritated me, the devide between the Northern Fundamentalists and the Southern revolutionaries was not from the book, and just muddies the relationship between Paul and Chani.