ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Imperial Japanese Navy Submarines
With Mark E. Stille
Part of Submarines Week
• Submarines
An introduction to the types, roles and campaigns of IJN Submarines.
Mark Stille - Commander USN (retired) is the author of numerous books focusing on naval history in the Pacific. He recently concluded a nearly 40-year career in the intelligence community, including tours on the faculty of the Naval War College, on the Joint Staff and on US Navy ships. He received his BA in History from the University of Maryland and also holds an MA from the Naval War College.
Mark's books on this subject:
The Imperial Japanese Navy in the Pacific War
USA bookshop.org/a...
UK uk.bookshop.or...
USN Fleet Destroyer Vs IJN Fleet Submarine: The Pacific 1941-42
USA bookshop.org/a...
Japanese Combined Fleet 1941-42: The Ijn at Its Zenith, Pearl Harbor to Midway
USA bookshop.org/a...
UK uk.bookshop.or...
www.historicna...
Mark's shows on Leyte Gulf for WW2TV
Part 1 www.youtube.co...
Part 2 www.youtube.co...
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That was a very informative talk from Mark. As always here on @WW2TV I learnt a lot.
The Japanese DID make a plethora of aircraft designs and prototypes- Tojo, Jack, Frank, Tony etc (and these are just fighters - I use their their allied code names for brevity’s sake) . Their problem was producing them in numbers hence the
reliance on older types (e.g Zeke) which became increasingly obsolete as the war progressed.
I think I came into today's show with some preconceived ideas of the Japanese Sub fleet and Mark did this terrific presentation of the reality of the fleet and it's operations and folks in the sidebar were just brilliantly engaged. Good information, but damn there's a lot more to be discussed it's like a Master's level seminar class. It tied in so well with the whole week of shows. I know we're not paying you enough Paul, so take yourself and Mag out for dinner and drinks. Fantastic, ready for another round.
Great presentation 👏. What really struck me was that 19 of 190 IJN subs lost during the war were sunk by USN submarines. That this happened in the absence of homing torpedoes is truly astounding.
I suppose the boats were on the surface.
A very complimentary discussion added to a very technical discussion that I watched earlier this week from Drachinifel. Thanks for bringing this analysis to us, Woody. It was very insightful
Thanks Jay
I have always been a proponent of the "If only the Japanese had concentrated on the merchant shipping" line of thought. Mark has done a good job of explaining how that is really untrue. His expert analysis of the numbers and capabilities of the IJN's submarine force disproves this once and for all, at least for me. The lack of radar, and above all SIGNINT as to where and when the U.S. Navy and Merchant Fleets were operating also came to light. I am amazed that they did as well as they did considering the factors of lack of resources that Japan had at the time. I wonder at the number of Japanese sailors lost overall considering that their crews were larger in most cases than the U Boat crews. Loved watching this replay and am sorry I missed the live show. Cheers to all.
Good job,Paul and Mark. The Japanese did want their subs to concentrate on Allied warships. But now we know the real reasons beyond the myth of Bushido code.
Woody/Mark. Been away for a few days so started catching up with missed presentations with this gem. I love the naval episodes. This was a great one in a subject that I know little about. I have been educated today. Thanks to you both! Bob
Woody - I have been to Los Angeles where I could not find anything re WW2. Looked to see when your presentations were on and found them to be at very unacceptable local times! Therefore I pay tribute to the regular viewers who do watch at incredible local times! Thanks again for all your hard work!
Yep, my live times are not ideal for anyone on the West coast who isn't retired or otherwise at home
I live not far from Brookings, Oregon, the only place in the contiguous US that was bombed by an Axis plane.
The pilot, Nobuo Fujita, flew a Glen launched by _I-25._ Among other missions he managed a reconnaissance of Sydney's harbor, then later on another patrol dropped two incendiary bombs near Brookings, hoping to start forest fires.
After the war he visited Brookings to apologize, it's an interesting story.
I've read that his successes were used in the IJN to validate the concept and inspire continued use and development.
@@ColinFreeman-kh9us Yes, Sydney Harbour (Australia), on 17-02-42.
I have since found out that he did recon over a fair number of Australian cities; he actually has a Wiki page!
For more weirdness, the Japanese also sent midget submarines into Australian harbors. One sank the _HMAS Kuttabul._
After the somewhat experimental V-boats, USN submarine classes were successive rather than parallel, and general purpose rather than specialized. Starting with the Porpoise class, each succeeding class had evolutionary incremental improvements. Gato class boats were coming into commission when PH was attacked, were followed by the Balao class (with some overlap), and the Tench class were coming into commission as WW2 was ending.
Great stuff Woody & Mark! I learned more about the IJN's submarine arm! Loved it. Gotta have him back :)
When PH was attacked, the US had 73 submarines in the Pacific. 18 were obsolescent/obsolete S-boats; several more were obsolescent or marginally useful V-boats. An advantage for USN boats was being able to focus on bottlenecks in predictable shipping lanes ("everything" headed to or from Japan).
A Glen launched from a sub flew over Melbourne in southern Australia upon Feb ‘42. I’m from Melbourne and I was shocked to hear this.
The British were concerned about Japanese cooperation with Germany in the western Indian Ocean in 1942 hence the invasion of Madagascar to prevent it being used by Japanese submarines to disrupt supply lines to the 8th army in Egypt ahead of el Alamein.
Drachinifel posted a video on the subject yesterday as well.
Thanks for a great show on a lesser known subject, which does not get a lot of coverage.
very interest topic and analysis
Great video, Mark E Stille is a national treasure!
Intro comment as an Australian my whole concept of the Japanese submarine campaign is the midget submarine attacks especially the one on Sydney Harbour , the sinking of a hospital ship and minefields off Gabo Island and I only know the last one because I worked on trawlers around there . Pretty ineffective
Wow. Love this. Learning so much I didn't know.
Oh boy! Sub stuff! Thank you!
Prior to Operation Barbarossa the Japanese and Germans had a very easy communication via the Trans Siberian Railroad. The Japanese helped many of the Graf Spree's crew return to Germany via Peru and NYK Passenger Liners . After Barbarossa the Germans sent several German Cargo ships to Biscay Ports. They also took Germans and essential cargo back to Europe!
1st class presentation thank you woody and mark
Solid.
This is excellent stuff! I’d love to see more of this hyper-focused stuff from the japanese perspective
Me too, the problem is finding the experts
Always top quality bro. Thanks for the great content. Insightful and entertaining.
Fascinating. Learned a lot on this show. Thanks!
Me too
This really corrected my impression of Japanese sub capacity. I think they probably carried on with the fleet support operations when even pre-war exercises showed them to be ineffective because the alternative was admitting to the failure of their entire strategic doctrine.
That's always the plan on the channel, to get people to rethink their opinions
@ErrolGC Japanese built 9 submarines in 1941-1945 between 3000-5300 tons. Actually more but 9 reached comissioning. The vast amount of resources throwed on these wet dreams (submarines with quarters fit for admiral, and 3 single engined bomber launched by I-400 destroying US west coast) is something very few understand. They had Aichi to develope M6A Seiran to fullfill their wet dreams (and waste yet more Japanese resources). Japanese could had built 50 to 60 1000 tons RO boats on effort of these 9 useless giants. The stupidity Japanese showed here is so thick soup i cant wade through it.
@@kimmoj2570I guess there could be method in the madness. Drachinifel explained in one of his video's the reason for the mega-battleships Yamato en Musashi. The Japanese had calculated that they could better use their resources for fewer large high quality ships than more lesser ships. They calculated that they could do more damage this way.
Could be that they applied the same logic to submarine building.
I am not saying they're right. I am only saying it could be a cold calculation in stead of a wet dream. 😉
@@bwarre2884Japanese wanted sub squadrons organized like destroyer squadrons. German method running subs had 1 chief and lot of indians. Japanese admirals wanted ofcourse for prestige much, much more chiefs. Nevermind the amount of indians (=actual combat boats). The largest boats were ment to house freaking admiral and his wooden office desk !! Japanese did not discover that this admiral will be under water, an incapable to communicate for all daylight hours in contested waters. After discovering this "pretty important" :facepalm: lack of comms somewhere in 1939-40, just after they had dumped countless millions building (and starting to build) those white elephant subs, being stubborn, they designed and built Oyodo class cruiser to house sub squadron admiral. Thank God only 1 of them. In surface battle there could be advantage having freaking big ship that can destroy anything on sight. But in sub warfare, the humblest DE can kill MORE easily the white elephants which takes minutes to crash dive and could not manouvre underwater properly. These Japanese monsters were 10 times easier to kill than German type VII boats, which crash dived in 30 seconds, could go DEEP, manouvre, and there were tens of times more of them. Above all this SNAFU, in North Atlantic patrolling aircraft could almost never visually see sub on periscope depth, flying right over. In Pacific shallow depth sub was seen CLEARLY by aircraft if flying over close enough (in Med too). IJN did many things right, but their submarine arm did EVERYTHING possible to be as useless as possible.
@@kimmoj2570 I never said it was a good idea. :)
Even though, the boats of the I-400 type could sail around the world and there were plans to attack the West Coast of the US with their floatplanes dropping biological weapons. Not sure what their chances would be, but luckily the war was over before they started.
And the French built a submarine with two 8-inch guns and a floatplane (Surcouf). The boat wasn't a big succes but still the Free French liberated two islands with it. :)
I’m always interested in comparative studies and and the similarities that pop up. Early in the war, US submarine commanders were criticized for being too cautious based on prewar exercises emphasizing the use of staying submerged and using acoustic sensors to attack. Here’s the IJN apparently with the same mindset. More comparisons please!
A good presentation. However I do have a difficult time agreeing with the statement that the midget subs attacking Pearl were a wasted effort. Parks Stephenson and others have made a very compelling case that the last wreck to be discovered indeed fired its two torpedoes against Battleship Row (and contrary to the usual detractors of the theory, it is based on far more than supposition on a possible 'rooster tail' seen in one of the Japanese photos taken during the attack).
Excellent 👍
The Japanese Navy also engaged the US during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Island s in 1942: the Hornet was lost ( severely damaged, abandoned, then scuttled) So, that is 4 carriers the US lost in 42, not 3.
The IJN did not successfully follow up and press their advantage after this said battle....perhaps because they could not conceive of any effective way to flexibly deploy their subs?
The light cruiser wasn’t sunk. According to the slide it was just damaged.
34:02 Drac did an episode on the early Japanese submarine campaign recently....... And i know whats coming here , for unkown reasons the Japanese subs failed to bag a fair few Captial ships toing and froing out of Pearl Harbour in the next couple of weeks
Fuel