And for those of you who live in Antarctica where jet fuel freezes, and will be commenting below shortly about how this video is incorrect, you need a heater pad 😂 and a ton of insulation. I'm sure someone will disagree. Keep in mind that regardless of the temperature, if you can insulate it well enough, it should be able to handle anything. At least on this planet. And yes, you still need low temp charging protection. That's why I prefaced this video with the dangers of charging without it. Solar batteries are charged unattended, so it is crucial to have full protection for your system at all times. Figured that was implied, but I just got an ignorant comment about that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Does off-grid solar confuse you? Check out my DIY friendly website for solar system packages and product recommendations, and so much more! www.mobile-solarpower.com Join our DIY solar community! #1 largest solar forum on the internet for beginners and professionals alike: www.diysolarforum.com Check out my best-selling, beginner-friendly 12V off-grid solar book (affiliate link): amzn.to/2Aj4dX4 If DIY is not for you, but you love solar and need an offgrid system, check out Tesla Solar. Low prices and great warranty, and they can take your entire house offgrid with their new Powerwalls: ts.la/william57509 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My solar equipment recommendations (Constantly updated! Check here first): 12V/48V Lithium Batteries: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-batteries.html Solar System Component Directory: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solarcomponents.html Plug-N-Play Systems: www.mobile-solarpower.com/full-size-systems.html Complete 48V System Kits: www.mobile-solarpower.com/complete-48v-solar-kits.html DIY Friendly Air Conditioner/ Heat Pumps: www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-friendly-air-conditioners.html Complete 48V System Blueprint: www.mobile-solarpower.com/48v-complete-system-blueprint.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My Favorite Online Stores for DIY Solar and Coupon Codes: -Current Connected: SOK, Victron and High Quality Components. Best prices and warranty around: currentconnected.com/?ref=wp -Signature Solar: Cheap Server Rack Batteries and Large Solar Panels: www.signaturesolar.com/?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Ecoflow Delta Official Site: My favorite plug-n-play solar generator: us.ecoflow.com/?aff=7 -AmpereTime: Cheapest 12V batteries around: amperetime.com/products/ampere-time-12v-100ah-lithium-lifepo4-battery?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Rich Solar: Mega site and cheaper prices than renogy! Check them out: richsolar.com/?ref=h-cvbzfahsek -Shop Solar Kits: Huge site with every solar kit you can imagine! Check it out: shopsolarkits.com/?ref=will-p -Battery Hookup: Cheap cell deals bit.ly/2mIxSqt 10% off code: diysolar -Watts 24/7: Best deals on all-in-one solar power systems, with customer support and distribution here in the USA: watts247.com/?wpam_id=3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact Information: I am NOT available for personal solar system consult! If you wish to contact me, this is my direct email: williamprowsediysolar@gmail.com Join the forum at diysolarforum.com/ if you wish to hang out with myself and others and talk about solar FTC Disclosure Statement and Disclaimers: Every video includes some form of paid promotion or sponsorship. Some links on this youtube channel may be affiliate links. We may get paid if you buy something or take an action after clicking one of these. My videos are for educational purposes only. Information is subject to change/update at any time. Electricity is DANGEROUS and can kill. Be smart and use common sense :) DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, An affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com may get paid if you buy something or take an action after clicking one of these.
Without the heater pads, how much discharge would it take to bring the battery up to a safe charging temperature at say 20* ?? If I am using raw cells and a BMS in an off road vehicle in cold weather, do I want to mount the BMS on the cells to make sure the cells get heated up faster or will I screw myself in the summer under heavy discharge loads?
Thank you. For talking about heaters. My first step with lifepo4 batteries was to put them in a picnic cooler. Upon discharging, the temperature immediately climbed to 148 F. The cooler trapped the heat of discharge and I knew a cooler was not going to be a year around solution. These batteries are in an unheated uninsulated storage shed on the Colorado plains. It gets hot insidenin the summer and cold inside in the winter. I use Morningstar ProStar controllers because of their low temperature foldback in winter. I also use thin orange silicone heaters on a thermostat, powered from the solar panels, through buck converters. Overnight temps in the winter are typically minus 6 C and the heaters will have the batteries warm enough to charge by 9 am. Please talk more about how to handle extreme cold in future videos. I can use the help.
Hi Will, I don't know if you remember me from way back. I have always been one of your most ardent supporters. I want to offer another option in terms of keeping your batteries warm. I use heating mats designed for the germination of plant seedlings. I place each of my 24v 100hh batteries on an incredibly inexpensive seedling heat mat. I run a large ranch at over 7000 feet in the southern Rockies. Winds often bring us well below zero.
I live in Ohio and my SOK batteries are mounted in a 5th wheel trailer in the unheated front compartment. My batteries metal cased but are inside a plastic storage container inside the front compartment. They do get below freezing in the winter and do need the heating pads which I have installed with a digital controller. I doesn’t heat often but it does activate once in a while. I know because I track it with a remote weather sensor.
As much as I enjoy watching you rip into, literally or figuratively, a battery or a battery maker, or a car maker for that matter,, these videos where are you discuss I don’t know, call it the fundamentals are actually more helpful, to me anyway, then the teardowns. I for one would not of made the connection to the need to keep current flowing to the battery despite it being in safety mode if it weren’t for this follow up. All my batteries are in a subterranean concrete bunker (we call it the basement) so I don’t need this type of functionality, but it was still very informative.Thank you
I am working on building an over-landing rig and probably will not have heat in the vehicle during winter, below freezing, excursions. I will probably be charging up a cell phone at night once I am going to bed, but that will probably only take an hour or so. I have been going back and forth on whether I need to consider heating a LiFePO4 battery. I think this video makes it clear that my scenario is one that would make having a battery heating system wise.
I RV in winter sometimes and my battery are situated in a compartment that is suppose to get some heat but the battery still freeze and I then have to run the generator to run the furnace on max for a while until I can get to start charging again. I end up spending a lot of extra energy just tu get them warm enough. I will be adding some battery warmer and insulation to make it less painful.
THANK YOU!!! I'm getting so tired of people online saying they need heated batteries and only give pre fab marketing sentences or no actual data and don't understand you can discharge batteries when they are cold. I live in Canada so it gets cold but as soon as you enter an rv or van you turn the heaters on, the battery can discharge, the bms takes care of the low temp and won't take a charge, after a night with the heaters on the battery will be warm enough to take a charge in the morning.
I have 4 battleborn batteries in an unheated greenhouse and despite the fact that the temperature outside regularly dips into the teens or below in the winter, the low temp charging disconnect has never triggered. Mind you there can be several days in a row at these temps without sun, but the thermal mass of the greenhouse and the fact that the batteries self heat when discharging as Will mentions seems to be enough!
Would you know if it did? Is it a manual reset or perhaps you are notified by bluetooth? I have no low temp cutoff that i know of…the manufacturer is nebulous about the BMS built into my A123 pouched-celled battery pack. I undersatnd my cells can withstand discharge down to 0F yet like most lithium…charging below 32F is a huge huge no-no.
I would know because I would see that the batteries are not charging from the solar. For battleborn the low temp charge disconnect is 25F in my understanding and if triggered will not reconnect until 32F.
Also I can charge the batteries from a generator and they have never refused a charge so far. In any case Will makes a good point to prioritize insulation since the batteries do generate heat on their own.
I'm sure there is some convenient correlation that the greenhouse is warm when the sun is out, and the batteries are most likely to charge when the sun is out. Seems like a nice symbiosis if you live somewhere that gets kind of cold but not really cold. In which case you need a heck of a greenhouse.
Will, I know this is an old thread and you'll probably never read this, but I so appreciate you. You continue to increase my understanding and confidence.
I plan on putting about 460-560 AH in the front compartment of our new 5W RV. That is an unheated compartment that is currently vented for L.A. batteries. The adjacent storage compartment is heated and thus I am seeing a 10-15 deg F higher track than the outside temps without plugging the vent tube & battery box lower air intake. If I reduce the leaks I think I won't need a heated battery, just a low-temperature cut-off. It gets cold at 8,500 feet in May and October where we camp host, but most of the summer will be worry-free. The internal heat of the battery, the 3KW inverter, & 3 Victron Charge controllers for 1,440-watt of solar on the roof & ground (steering around trees & canyon walls as needed) will also help. I will have a temp-controlled fan to the vent outside for the summer months as well. I will tweak as needed.
Canbat has a nice heating system, which kicks on only when the battery is connected to the charger, and take power only from the charger. It works only when needed. That’s a very useful feature especially if it kicks in when nothing else does.
I live at 7500ft elevation in Colorado. In my unheated Chicken coop, the pack sets up in the rafters of the 12x12 shed and the cold temp protection does kick in... I have been debating on either a double insulation or getting from 12v heat pads and use an ink bird temp controller and DC to DC SSR to keep the pack warm.
Hello from the western slope!! It was 17F this morning. We store our travel trailer with no electrical connection, as well as our solar completely disconnected. The batteries were at 32 degrees! So, I would probably just turn on my propane heater for a little bit, then could provide power with our Lithiums. Also of interest, I turned off the power to the camper on 15 January; the Lithiums were at 99% state of charge. A month later in the cold...and they were at 99% today!
I am in Canada and out in a boat in the winter using a trolling motor up with lots of cold wind.... definitely think this is the thing i may need to help charge the batteries when I make the switch from SLA. So many ones I found id love to see you do a tear down on, like the CANBAT and the relion battery. Would love to know they are good quality before paying $1,200 per battery.
Sensor placement is a very good key too that you mentioned. You probably want the sensor as far away from the pads as possible. Maybe sandwitch it between cells right in the middle and have the heater on all sides. It will take some time for the heat to gravitate through the battery and to the sensor, so when sensor reads a higher temp you know you're good to go. And yeah it's probably best to have separate heater than to be tied to a specific brand/cell. I'm still using lead acid for all my stuff so don't have to worry about this, but these cells are slowly starting to become more available in Canada so eventually do want to start playing around with these. Most likely for vehicular stuff once I start getting more equipment on my homestead property.
I am quite intrigued by this. I have looked into my Prius gen 3 losing 12V battery power, and concluded the location way back isolated and out in the rear quarter, with zero insulation, is a fridge in effect come winter. I have bought a couple of little heater plates, but will first insulate, and already have a solar panel attached. This will probably be best. Good vid.
There is a company in Norway that sells heated battery with a added feature.. They charge at reduced rate below 0°C. The charge rate is 0.05C, and current above that will go to the heating pads. The reason for this setup is to use the limiting sun hours in winter for low rate charging, and not heat.
@@leonardsackett9568 the max charge speed is a function of temperature, not a hard cutoff. But it's cheaper to make a BMS with a hard cutoff. Will Prowse have an interview with a battery maker where they taking about this topic.
I definitely need to get a battery with an internal heater. My RV has a 110v fridge which I’d like to leave powered via solar when my RV is in storage. It gets very cold - easily cold enough for hard freezing. I have no problem with temperature when I’m living in the RV, but when its just sitting there, ambient temperature can stay below 25F for days and days in a row.
I've heard of low temp concerns with lithium, but generally the context doesn't include the bottom end of that temp range. Would you mind letting me know what temp i should never go below for charging, or discharging (in case they are different). Thanks Will, you're a wealth of info & experience, providing huge value!
Back years ago, ppl with a well, would put a 100watt lightbulb in the well house to keep the water from freezing, it's a tiny building, just bug enough for the water tank, and the well. Usually insulated. A 100w bulb can keep it about 45°-60°F when it's about 0°F outside, in some cases, and escamo can build a igloo and stay warm from body heat, trapped air is a excellent insulation, and combined with a thermal mass, it's not going to get that cold that fast! So a battery box with a tail light bulb could be used to keep it above freezing!
This is what I do with my bank. My battery is in an old bathroom vanity with some styrofoam insulation and a 40w bulb. I store my power tools battery in same spot.
New subscriber. Helpful as I learn more about my goal of moving from deep cycle lead acid to lifepo4 in my boat. Thanks for posting beginner videos like this. Batteries, charger, performance running electronics, etc. Your videos are easy to follow and presented well.
Hey Will, nice Test! I also built myself an Lifepo4 Battery (6kwh) for my ebike to charge everyday. I use an old Apc UPS as inverter. That works surprisingly well. You can have a pure sine wave 1000 watt unit for 50$ you replace the AGM ones with your Battery Bank. You should mention in one of your Videos. It would really help people, that are on a bugdet. You can Build a very cheap AIO Powerstation.
Hi! Just went to your channel to see if you might have a video showing how to do the build you describe. Think you could create one and post? I (and probably many others) would love to see. Thanks!
You should do a video on charging a battery safely below freezing. These can actually be charged below freezing at a low C rate. 32-14 F charge less than 0.1C. My battle borns keep charging down to 25F without heaters. If you did a video like this, it will be the first on TH-cam. Test capacity before and after cold charging at different C rates. You have the batteries to do it.
Yes, we have actually discussed this with the CEO of battleborn (video interview I posted on this channel already). I did do some videos on this and pulled full capacity at very low temps. I removed the videos because they were not made with the same quality as my other videos and I was using a pack from big battery, and I do not like them at all.
@@WillProwse I've seen almost all of your videos in the last year or two. I did watch the battle born video. I'd love to see them videos you took down, or make some new ones on this subject. Thanks!
I'm planning on locating my LiFePO4 battery rack in an unconditioned storage closet within an open carport. Where I live, the ambient high temperatures average around 30C throughout the summer, but can hit 40C for maybe a week or two. I see some conflicting data on cell degradation at these temperatures. Should I simply just try to cool the rack to ambient temperatures during the summer with increased airflow, or should I try active cooling -- maybe a recirculating chiller or small AC?
Will, do you have or can you do a lifepo battery maintenance video? I’ve searched, but you have a ton of great content. Thanks for what you do, this video helped me out, and quite timely too.
Will be putting my battery's, in the heated basement of our camper. So the only time they might be even close to 32 degrees. Camper will be shut down, with battery's switched off. Hope to our 6 solar panes and the battery's installed by fall on our camper. Your book came in today.
After looking at this video I decided I *do* need internal heaters for my batteries. I have them stored in the non-heated garage in the back of my camper. so cool air can run under the car and make it way colder. They sre not in a plastic box (I build a wooden box around them instead, but thats only to deflect items from accidentally hitting the batteries, not to insulate in any way shape or form. I also drive fairly often into snowy areas, like up a mountain. I decided to do something similar to what you did, with the sewage heating pad, and use a terranium one, which fits sandwiched between the cells. I am planning to make some kind of insulation as well which I can put on in the winter and take off in the summer, but havent planned that one out yet
I have a portable trailer with computer equipment in Utah where the winter temperature ranges from 14 to 34 F depending upon the day and the sun. I ended up getting the battleborn batteries for reliability and the heater. Solar is the only way to charge the other than going to the trailer with a generator. So I need to ensure the solar few hours gets the most charge. It worked well for long stretches. During some unfortunate circumstances the batteries ended up being drained and before we could get they were completely empty. So we had to heat the batteries up w the generator before we could even recharge. I had brought with added reptile heating pads ha ha to assist in the process. The batteries are insulated but it’s an unmanned trailer so given enough time it’s cold. The unfortunate part is we were getting a lot of solar during the week that we were not able to get up there but the temperature prevented charging. Live and learn Love the channel
I was thinking of using some of mine on a pole for security cameras the way it looked to me was if the temperature was under spec the solar charging energy was diverted to the heating pads untill conditions improved then switched to charging. Perfection
@@williamvaughan1218 this is a great idea, have a separate circuit that runs directly off solar(and battery as backup) to run the heating elements with whatever power is available! This is possibly the best idea I've seen for keeping batteries charged with solar 100% hands-off and reliable. GREAT IDEA once again!
I bought an EarthX LiFePO4 battery, which they market to snowmobiles. I used it in sub-zero temperatures and it ate itself. No low temp charging protection. So low temp charging protection is very important. But even in sub-zero it could still push a few hundred amps to run the starter just fine. So I think you're right.
@@joels7605 not if you use a BMS with low temp discharge cutoff. And diesel cars and electric cars don't drain the 12V while running, if you use an un-heated lithium battery with no low temp cutoff you will ruin it in a gasoline vehicle if its below freezing.
@@eldiablooooo EarthX sells a 12v battery as a lead-acid replacement. It's sealed with an integrated BMS. It does not have low temp cutoff. Also if you start a vehicle the alternator DOES charge the battery for the first few seconds/minutes until it's up to voltage.
Haha! Getting the batteries to below 32F in the UP of Michigan in mid winter would be no problem!!! Hmm, but not to buy the internal heater pads... Thinking here. I trust your knowledge. Focus on insulation or keep in a heated living space. What about if my RV is in storage, or in the parking lot while I stay in a hotel since it is so cold?
Thanks for this Will and all your great content, I'm learning a lot from you! Would be nice to get some more in depth talk about low temperature charge protection options, as there's sometimes deals on lifepo4 without the low charge protection so I'm tempted to purchase those and figure out an alternative way to do a low temperature cut off from all the charging methods(alternator, solar, shore power) and it's not clear whether that's a bad idea.
All I can do is vouch for my 2 UNheated Battleborns. I have an off grid near the Canadian border The heat went out and they were as low as -30F for a month or so. As soon as we got there, heated the place up everything seemed fine. We use a Rich Solar MPPT 40 amp controller. So far, so good
For offgrid rv use I never really saw a use for those heaters. Just as their mass makes them resistant to getting cold, I’d imagine those resistive heaters would have to run a long time to bring the cells up if cold soaked down in the single digits. Better to mount them inside furnace heated area. Where the batteries were can become a storage area (for items that aren’t temperature sensitive) so you wouldn’t loose any space.
I have a bit under 200 ah of the headway cells in my car audio build. They're in their own cooled box but I haven't installed heaters on them n it got pretty cold here in northern utah so instead of risking it I pulled them out. Which sucked cause it was like 18 deg. I know folks will read this and scoff but for me coming from Vegas, that shits freezing! I'll be installing heating pads in the airing when they go back in. Thanks you will, excellent video as always
I just want to throw it out there how thankful I am for these videos. I'm plenty smart, but have little kids and little time to research stuff on my own. I've been through hundreds of your videos while burping my baby and whatnot. I'm currently putting together my first system on my pop-up truck camper so that me and my family can adventure off grid for years to come. So thanks. And, fuck the haters that get on here trying to contradict you all the time. I'm sure this started as a hobby simply to help others. ✌️😎
Will is right. I have 4 AGM batteries in my van. I live where the internal temperature of the van while in storage gets below 10 degrees sometimes. This year, just before I left for warmer territory, I came up with a solution. I put a dog warmer pad over the top of the 4 batteries (with insulator in between for safety). Nice and warm. I also put the dog warmer pad over my lithium e-bike batteries in the downtube of my e-bike. Nice and warm. No problem. I will be upgrading to batteries with low temperature cut off in a few weeks. I'm going to use the same dog warming pad. Once I am underway, the inside of the van is heated via an Espar heater. No worries.
Since heat rises, I doubt the efficiencies of heating above the batteries is really that useful. Try putting the heater pad under the batteries and you'll need it on for a lot less time.
@@dougle03 *HEAT* doesn't rise. Pure heat, as in IR radiation, emits equally regardless of gravity. Warm *air* rises, sure. But that isn't the same thing. In this case, a blanket will help trap the warm air close to the batteries where as a pad under would allow all that warm air to quickly rise away from the battery. This is pretty easy to test - lay on top of a heated blanket and then lay under the same heated blanket. Which configuration do you feel most warm?
I actually contacted one of the manufactuers of a LiFePO4 battery that I was considering and asked if the batteries could be insulated such as we do with outdoor water pipes when we expect a winter freeze. Or heated with a 12V warming blanket, etc. The manufacturer of that battery told me neither of this methods will work and that I need to remove my batteries and take them indoors to charge! ??? Hardly a feasible setup for a person living in their van and relying 24/7/365 on solar and the battery bank!
I live about 75 mi south of you and I have long thought that I would prefer a battery I could keep inside instead of one that cannot be safely charged inside a living space. I am on a fixed income and built a lead-acid bank years ago because I could add capacity slowly. So, as you noted, a battery that is unlikely to be exposed to low temperatures is at very low risk.
We live in SE Michigan. I have had a 1 gallon bottle of distilled water in my unheated garage over the winter. Last week it was frozen solid as a rock. Today it is half water, half ice, we have a "warm" spell. The low for the next three nights is estimated to be about 12f and the high for the next two days 20f. Just to see I melted the remainder of the ice out of the jug and filled it with OUR 39F TAP WATER. Will check on it in 3 days. PS: have a 100ah SOK and last time 2-3 weeks ago its low temp disconnect was working....could not charge it.
Advice appreciated. I have a small hunting shed where I stay the night occasionally, a 100 watt solar panel and will be using a Rich 20 amp MPPT controller soon, have it on order. I have been using a Rich PWM controller for the last two years. My AGM 100 amp battery is in a wooden box (2" thick boards, not air tight though relatively so) sitting beside the shed. My power usage is relatively low with everything DC - lights, fans and a small DC TV. I have been listening to a lot of discussion about the LifePO4 batteries and trying to decide if this type battery is appropriate for me. Since I only stay at the shack now and then, there is no regular drain on the battery to heat up the box most of the time. I can insulate inside the battery box in some manner, so I am wondering if perhaps a very light draw from a DC light burning inside the shack or some other low-draw device might provide enough heat from discharge to keep the battery warm. Is this something I should be doing with the AGM battery as well? Temps here in winter get below freezing, in the 20"s fairly often but also in the teens and single digits occasionally. We did have -5 degree temps for two or three days this past winter. I am relatively new to solar and trying to learn more, and I do appreciate any information any of you might be willing to share. I will say that the system I currently have has served me well for the last two seasons, but it appears that (guessing) the battery may be losing some power since it has dropped below 12.2 amps with light usage a couple of times, and more often the 5 bar battery indicator on the controller drops to 4 bars fairly quickly, such as with only 14 watts of lights and a 10 watt fan running. Is a LifePO4 for me, to give plenty of reserve power when I need it, or am I better off to continue with an AGM battery? And, will a low-draw device provide enough heat to keep the battery warm? As I say, I am trying to learn more and I know that most of you guys have far more knowledge about solar applications than I do. I appreciate your input.
Well said will.. thermal mass is real. If your using your batteries they will create their own heat.. it takes along time for that mass to cool down/freeze
Will great explanation video. Really helpful, your positive enthusiasm is contagious. On another aspect of off-grid installations, could you cover the aspect of availability of solar panels build with perovskite cells?
@Jerry Malisz - solar panels make DC output, so just wondering why you are interested in having that output come from a particular kind of cell? FWIW as far as I know, there are no commercially available perovskite cell based panels for sale yet. The manufacturing technology is getting better and they are getting close to prime time, but then again, it’s been the next big thing since 2008 when I first tuned into cell tech.
Good focus lately about temperature. Would also be interested in how to have focus on high temperatures, which are prevalent in Africa, Australia amongst other regions.
Last month we had some single digit temps, and were without power for a few days. My Bluetti was at about 43% and had been sitting in my truck. Needless to say, the Bluetti was not going to take a charge after sitting in the truck. It took about 4 hours in a 60 F environment to warm up enough to take a charge. I wish I had just started using the Bluetti in the extreme low temps to see if the inverter would have generated enough heat to get the unit up to charging temperature. Since I use the Bluetti as my "on-the-road" power source, I think I may put an RV tank heater around it so I'll be good to charge in most any weather.
I was all cued up to get a heated battery from Ampere Time but watched your SOK video and that changed my mind. They also offer a heated one but after seeing this video I think I will skip the heat. And due to their form factor I might be able to fit 2 of the 200ah in my motorhome in their stock location under my steps. My big issue is that this is outside. So winter could possibly be an issue. I think I have room to build a box or at least make a reflectex liner for this compartment.
I have a bluetti in my chicken coop in NH. The low temp cut off has been triggered. Had to bring it inside to warm it up before it would charge. I installed it in a Styrofoam cooler with the top cracked open and never had a problem after that, even when temps were below freezing.
On the opposite end of managing cold temperatures, have you done any videos on managing hot temperatures? I have concerns about using lithium batteries in hot weather where temps can reach the high 90s and under cover temps can easily exceed 110 degrees. What kind of damage actually occurred when temps exceed storage or discharge temp limits? Thank you!
Will! Been with you since that scary night in Eureka when the tweaker’s were freaking you out. Bro, you deleted most all of your boon docking vids. They were great.
I live in an area where outdoor temps are frequently above 110 f I want to build a battery / inverter setup inside of a small chest freezer that is controlled by a thermal switch to keep it near 77f and a heating pad that keeps it above 35f in the winter
Will/et al: Im a new subscriber and your videos are a help. I will use a 50amp 5th wheel for extended stays in North western Montana this winter for skiing. It can get down to -15 during the day while I will be away from the RV skiing. Im building the system now . I will be completely off grid using a 3K generator for BU. Ill need to run a combination of propane and 120 Volt heaters on /off through the night. Ive gotten away with this before with just the generator but getting tired of waking up freezing so Im looking for improvement this year. Im considering Battleborn and SOK with internal heaters. Im probably capable of rigging something up but you did not go into enough detail on that. My situation is Similiar to some other comments with a front un-insulated /unheated compartment made for a generator. However I wont be able to retreat to heated shop with VAC for repairs: something the videos Ive viewed on TH-cam so far overlooks. Im looking at 3-5 200w, 24V solar panels in series, 400AH SOK or Battleborns and a Victron system using the MultiPlus II inverter. Any feedback is appreciated.
-40 when I head S for the winter ❄️🥶 so yes I do need heater pads. I have 3 of them, 12 watts each for keeping RV holding tanks from freezing. They were much cheaper than the battery heaters I have seen advertised
winter last year I couldnt charge as my batteries where cold, a week ago I thought oh no winters coming! then remembered I bought some small pads to stop my water tanks freezing and never used because of the heat under the van from the diesel heater, so now I'm fitting the 4 50w pads under my 8 cells, so like 25w on each 305ah cell. I thought under would be better as heat rises, and my cell is measured near the top
I'm in Canada where it gets -35c, we store our van in winter, so we do have the internal battery warmer as part of our Victron set up provided by the VAN builder. Worked great last winter. My fear though is the heater failing. The battery won't charge because of the BMS etc, but I'm worried that the battery will freeze and get ruined? And my big fear is the heater and the bms fails haha. So every day I'm out there, making sure it works in below 0 weather.
Makes sense. 🙂 I was actually thinking that it made more sense to just use thermal insulation so it is nice that someone confirmed that my thinking was correct.🙂
@@sawmillmods1659 Yep, insulation alone in climates that spend long periods below freezing will require additional heat either through cycling of the batteries and/or heating pads.
I guess I just wasn't aware of how cold it had to be before batteries would be damaged. If it's just 32 degrees you're right, it's unnecessary almost everywhere in the US. Thanks for the video!
Do a video on lithiums that are good for boats. Also there seems to be a lot of emphasis on cold\hot sensors. Is that necessarily important in all cases?
We had 18 F⁰ outside at 10 o'clock in the morning. My batteries have a sheet metal roof but open on the side. The BMS said that the internal battery temperature was still 36.4 F⁰.
Oh yeah, My van gets well below freezing as I don't run the (diesel) heater all night (or use it every day). Only when I wake up. I've camped and rode my moto a hundred times below freezing, no big deal. Where my batteries are stored it takes a while for them to warm up. I'll install a big heated tank pad for next winter (or just come back to Florida for the winter). The problem with insulation of course is it can slow the warming up process - it works both ways. I've got 2 soks but I'm seriously thinking of a couple of 300 ah unheated batteries - because you can never have enough.
Hi Will, Thanks for teaching us about solar and solar charging.. I just bought an off grid home in Northern Maine. The temps in Winter get to -#30 degrees a few times. Also I am not there all the time. I probably will be there 20 days a month. What is the best way for me to handle the batteries in this situation. Thanks for your help Jack
My question would be at ultracold temperatures. I see that most LFPs are rated to -20C for discharging. Would there be any damage to the battery to power the heater pads below this temp (low C rate discharge possible)? I have an offgrid cabin in Canada and will often get to -30C or colder in winter. The solar panels will get covered in snow once I leave, so can't really keep a load on the battery to self warm it above the -20C limit.
@@WillProwse Thanks Will, you are a wealth of knowledge. I've been debating this use case for a while. You may have given me an excuse to search out LTOs again. If only they weren't so expensive
I have SOK batteries I live in northen Canada. I have only had low temp cut off once, it has got to -4C inside the house with them still working they seem to hold some heat. The time I had low temp cut off it was -10C in the house ... about -35C outside.
All I know is that the android tablets we have in our school busses to do pre and post trip inspections on, work terribly or not at all, once the AM temperatures are below about 22 degrees F overnight. If the bus sits idle for more than one night (like over a weekend) then the temperature had better not go below 32 degrees (even if the device is fully charged when the bus is shut down). So YES, we need internal heaters that switch on/off with the weather.
Hey Will, I would like to use a lifepo4 battery in my truck, and being in the midwest it gets cold. The problem I would have is if the BMS cuts off the load (not just the charging) at low temperatures, it wouldn’t start the truck.
How would you recommend insulating two 12v 100ah batteries? I am debating on travel trailer installation, whether I can continue to store outside in a black plastic holders, or insulate the holders, or go through whole process of bring the batteries inside under the bed and pulling wires from the frame.
I would like to know if I can use one of these lead Iron phosphate batteries to run a solar panel fence charger on a ranch where it some time reaches a 120ﾟ
living in my part of cal, 1000F elv. a bit below the snow line (3000F), but can get a good dusting a couple times a year, but 99% gone that day. not really sure if i need the added cost of built in warmers. with that said. it can get down into the teens for a couple day-more. so if not heated, then yes needs low temp cut off. my rv is not the best for insulation, under the bed it gets colder than the cabin does. (no air movement there). would just a dog bed warmer, heating pad, something like a water hose heater line, maybe a incandescent work light? i am thinking just some heat there can keep the temp up a bit. but yes more "stuff" between the outside air then the factory location. that is open to the night air. and yes sitting in the yard, it is plugged into the home source. (sad pg&e). only thing always on is the microwave clock, the fridge, (only 2 things that must have ac power to work), and the stereo again just a clock (12V DC). no lights, heater, etc. in "camp" if it is cold outside, (no ac power input there as i boon dock). the cabin heater is on. at 63, creaky joints, i do not like being cold.
I store my 3kwh big battery 24v inside an old bathroom vanity with some cheep styrofoam insulation on the interior walls. When cold, I have a 40w incandescent bulb turned on inside. Just enough heat to keep it above freezing. My solar shed is otherwise not heated.
I bought a 280AH battery and will be inside my van. I also purchased an Olympian Wave 3 heater. So, I'm wondering if I build a box out of the 1 inch pink foam with a high R value work? I saw some guy put towels on top and around the battery also? Eventually Id like to install the self adhesive heating pads but Im still not sure how to wire them and fuse em.
Can I wrap my batteries with something like a yoga mat to help keep my lithium batteries a little warmer? I moved them from my tongue to inside my travel trailer but still a little concerned about the early spring and late fall trips here in Utah.
I sure hope the low temp disconect works on my SOK batteries. They are in our un insulated machine shed and it's going to be 4 degrees farenheit this week. There are two 100 and hour. Batteries and only 200 watts of solar panels. That probably is not enough current to harm them even if the low temp cut off failed.
I live in the high desert of Oregon, where you get a chance of sub freezing temperatures any time of the year. I would need to keep LiFePo batteries indoors here, as I have seen it near -30C since I moved up here, and old timers talk about it being below -40C. I currently own a high capacity AGM battery, but will probably be buying LiFePo batteries soon.
And for those of you who live in Antarctica where jet fuel freezes, and will be commenting below shortly about how this video is incorrect, you need a heater pad 😂 and a ton of insulation. I'm sure someone will disagree. Keep in mind that regardless of the temperature, if you can insulate it well enough, it should be able to handle anything. At least on this planet.
And yes, you still need low temp charging protection. That's why I prefaced this video with the dangers of charging without it. Solar batteries are charged unattended, so it is crucial to have full protection for your system at all times. Figured that was implied, but I just got an ignorant comment about that.
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👍👀👍
What about when summer comes. Do you have to remove the thermal insulation to make sure the battery doesn't get too hot? 🙂
Without the heater pads, how much discharge would it take to bring the battery up to a safe charging temperature at say 20* ?? If I am using raw cells and a BMS in an off road vehicle in cold weather, do I want to mount the BMS on the cells to make sure the cells get heated up faster or will I screw myself in the summer under heavy discharge loads?
Freely Roaming has a video where he builds a battery with temp sensors, fans and heating pads. It protects against heat and freezing temps.
The fact that you even have to make this disclaimer...because the internet lol
Thank you. For talking about heaters. My first step with lifepo4 batteries was to put them in a picnic cooler. Upon discharging, the temperature immediately climbed to 148 F. The cooler trapped the heat of discharge and I knew a cooler was not going to be a year around solution. These batteries are in an unheated uninsulated storage shed on the Colorado plains. It gets hot insidenin the summer and cold inside in the winter. I use Morningstar ProStar controllers because of their low temperature foldback in winter. I also use thin orange silicone heaters on a thermostat, powered from the solar panels, through buck converters. Overnight temps in the winter are typically minus 6 C and the heaters will have the batteries warm enough to charge by 9 am. Please talk more about how to handle extreme cold in future videos. I can use the help.
Hi Will, I don't know if you remember me from way back. I have always been one of your most ardent supporters. I want to offer another option in terms of keeping your batteries warm. I use heating mats designed for the germination of plant seedlings. I place each of my 24v 100hh batteries on an incredibly inexpensive seedling heat mat. I run a large ranch at over 7000 feet in the southern Rockies. Winds often bring us well below zero.
I live in Ohio and my SOK batteries are mounted in a 5th wheel trailer in the unheated front compartment. My batteries metal cased but are inside a plastic storage container inside the front compartment. They do get below freezing in the winter and do need the heating pads which I have installed with a digital controller. I doesn’t heat often but it does activate once in a while. I know because I track it with a remote weather sensor.
As much as I enjoy watching you rip into, literally or figuratively, a battery or a battery maker, or a car maker for that matter,, these videos where are you discuss I don’t know, call it the fundamentals are actually more helpful, to me anyway, then the teardowns. I for one would not of made the connection to the need to keep current flowing to the battery despite it being in safety mode if it weren’t for this follow up. All my batteries are in a subterranean concrete bunker (we call it the basement) so I don’t need this type of functionality, but it was still very informative.Thank you
There's no one on TH-cam like this channel !! Thank you Sir
Very informative
I am working on building an over-landing rig and probably will not have heat in the vehicle during winter, below freezing, excursions. I will probably be charging up a cell phone at night once I am going to bed, but that will probably only take an hour or so. I have been going back and forth on whether I need to consider heating a LiFePO4 battery. I think this video makes it clear that my scenario is one that would make having a battery heating system wise.
I RV in winter sometimes and my battery are situated in a compartment that is suppose to get some heat but the battery still freeze and I then have to run the generator to run the furnace on max for a while until I can get to start charging again. I end up spending a lot of extra energy just tu get them warm enough. I will be adding some battery warmer and insulation to make it less painful.
THANK YOU!!! I'm getting so tired of people online saying they need heated batteries and only give pre fab marketing sentences or no actual data and don't understand you can discharge batteries when they are cold. I live in Canada so it gets cold but as soon as you enter an rv or van you turn the heaters on, the battery can discharge, the bms takes care of the low temp and won't take a charge, after a night with the heaters on the battery will be warm enough to take a charge in the morning.
I have 4 battleborn batteries in an unheated greenhouse and despite the fact that the temperature outside regularly dips into the teens or below in the winter, the low temp charging disconnect has never triggered. Mind you there can be several days in a row at these temps without sun, but the thermal mass of the greenhouse and the fact that the batteries self heat when discharging as Will mentions seems to be enough!
Would you know if it did? Is it a manual reset or perhaps you are notified by bluetooth? I have no low temp cutoff that i know of…the manufacturer is nebulous about the BMS built into my A123 pouched-celled battery pack. I undersatnd my cells can withstand discharge down to 0F yet like most lithium…charging below 32F is a huge huge no-no.
I would know because I would see that the batteries are not charging from the solar. For battleborn the low temp charge disconnect is 25F in my understanding and if triggered will not reconnect until 32F.
Also I can charge the batteries from a generator and they have never refused a charge so far. In any case Will makes a good point to prioritize insulation since the batteries do generate heat on their own.
@@chasmarischen4459 20ft by 80 high tunnel. Pretty average.
I'm sure there is some convenient correlation that the greenhouse is warm when the sun is out, and the batteries are most likely to charge when the sun is out. Seems like a nice symbiosis if you live somewhere that gets kind of cold but not really cold. In which case you need a heck of a greenhouse.
Will, I know this is an old thread and you'll probably never read this, but I so appreciate you. You continue to increase my understanding and confidence.
I plan on putting about 460-560 AH in the front compartment of our new 5W RV. That is an unheated compartment that is currently vented for L.A. batteries. The adjacent storage compartment is heated and thus I am seeing a 10-15 deg F higher track than the outside temps without plugging the vent tube & battery box lower air intake. If I reduce the leaks I think I won't need a heated battery, just a low-temperature cut-off. It gets cold at 8,500 feet in May and October where we camp host, but most of the summer will be worry-free. The internal heat of the battery, the 3KW inverter, & 3 Victron Charge controllers for 1,440-watt of solar on the roof & ground (steering around trees & canyon walls as needed) will also help. I will have a temp-controlled fan to the vent outside for the summer months as well. I will tweak as needed.
Canbat has a nice heating system, which kicks on only when the battery is connected to the charger, and take power only from the charger. It works only when needed. That’s a very useful feature especially if it kicks in when nothing else does.
Hello bro I watch your every video. One day when I own my own house. I will make it all solar panel. Thank for sharing the knowledge
I live at 7500ft elevation in Colorado. In my unheated Chicken coop, the pack sets up in the rafters of the 12x12 shed and the cold temp protection does kick in... I have been debating on either a double insulation or getting from 12v heat pads and use an ink bird temp controller and DC to DC SSR to keep the pack warm.
Get the chickens to nest on top of them:)
Hello from the western slope!! It was 17F this morning. We store our travel trailer with no electrical connection, as well as our solar completely disconnected. The batteries were at 32 degrees! So, I would probably just turn on my propane heater for a little bit, then could provide power with our Lithiums.
Also of interest, I turned off the power to the camper on 15 January; the Lithiums were at 99% state of charge. A month later in the cold...and they were at 99% today!
@@campingalan Get more chickens!
I am in Canada and out in a boat in the winter using a trolling motor up with lots of cold wind.... definitely think this is the thing i may need to help charge the batteries when I make the switch from SLA. So many ones I found id love to see you do a tear down on, like the CANBAT and the relion battery. Would love to know they are good quality before paying $1,200 per battery.
Sensor placement is a very good key too that you mentioned. You probably want the sensor as far away from the pads as possible. Maybe sandwitch it between cells right in the middle and have the heater on all sides. It will take some time for the heat to gravitate through the battery and to the sensor, so when sensor reads a higher temp you know you're good to go. And yeah it's probably best to have separate heater than to be tied to a specific brand/cell. I'm still using lead acid for all my stuff so don't have to worry about this, but these cells are slowly starting to become more available in Canada so eventually do want to start playing around with these. Most likely for vehicular stuff once I start getting more equipment on my homestead property.
I am quite intrigued by this. I have looked into my Prius gen 3 losing 12V battery power, and concluded the location way back isolated and out in the rear quarter, with zero insulation, is a fridge in effect come winter. I have bought a couple of little heater plates, but will first insulate, and already have a solar panel attached. This will probably be best. Good vid.
There is a company in Norway that sells heated battery with a added feature..
They charge at reduced rate below 0°C. The charge rate is 0.05C, and current above that will go to the heating pads.
The reason for this setup is to use the limiting sun hours in winter for low rate charging, and not heat.
I have read several articles that you can trickle charge frozen batteries. I would guess that 0.05C would count as a trickle charge.
@@leonardsackett9568 the max charge speed is a function of temperature, not a hard cutoff. But it's cheaper to make a BMS with a hard cutoff.
Will Prowse have an interview with a battery maker where they taking about this topic.
I definitely need to get a battery with an internal heater.
My RV has a 110v fridge which I’d like to leave powered via solar when my RV is in storage. It gets very cold - easily cold enough for hard freezing.
I have no problem with temperature when I’m living in the RV, but when its just sitting there, ambient temperature can stay below 25F for days and days in a row.
If the RV ambient temperature is so cold that it will "hard freeze" the battery, why do you need the refrigerator running?
@@ewicky because sometimes, it is not
@@williammeek4078 Just empty it when its in storage and shut it off. Seems kinda obvious.
I've heard of low temp concerns with lithium, but generally the context doesn't include the bottom end of that temp range. Would you mind letting me know what temp i should never go below for charging, or discharging (in case they are different). Thanks Will, you're a wealth of info & experience, providing huge value!
Check the manufacturers specifications.
Back years ago, ppl with a well, would put a 100watt lightbulb in the well house to keep the water from freezing, it's a tiny building, just bug enough for the water tank, and the well. Usually insulated. A 100w bulb can keep it about 45°-60°F when it's about 0°F outside, in some cases, and escamo can build a igloo and stay warm from body heat, trapped air is a excellent insulation, and combined with a thermal mass, it's not going to get that cold that fast! So a battery box with a tail light bulb could be used to keep it above freezing!
What the heck is an escamo?
I did the same thing for some outdoor alcoves.
The funny thing is those incandescent bulbs are getting harder to find now.
What do you mean years ago?
@@CanadianTexaninLiguria it is the new name for those chocolate covered ice cream squares that got woked
This is what I do with my bank. My battery is in an old bathroom vanity with some styrofoam insulation and a 40w bulb. I store my power tools battery in same spot.
New subscriber. Helpful as I learn more about my goal of moving from deep cycle lead acid to lifepo4 in my boat. Thanks for posting beginner videos like this. Batteries, charger, performance running electronics, etc. Your videos are easy to follow and presented well.
Hey Will, nice Test! I
also built myself an Lifepo4 Battery
(6kwh) for my ebike to charge
everyday. I use an old Apc UPS as inverter. That works surprisingly well. You can have a pure sine wave 1000 watt unit for
50$ you replace the AGM ones
with your Battery Bank. You should mention in one of your Videos. It would really help people, that are on a
bugdet. You can Build a very cheap AIO Powerstation.
Hi! Just went to your channel to see if you might have a video showing how to do the build you describe. Think you could create one and post? I (and probably many others) would love to see. Thanks!
Thanks! Great idea.
I’m in Canada and appreciated this. 🍁
You should do a video on charging a battery safely below freezing. These can actually be charged below freezing at a low C rate. 32-14 F charge less than 0.1C. My battle borns keep charging down to 25F without heaters. If you did a video like this, it will be the first on TH-cam. Test capacity before and after cold charging at different C rates. You have the batteries to do it.
Yes, we have actually discussed this with the CEO of battleborn (video interview I posted on this channel already). I did do some videos on this and pulled full capacity at very low temps. I removed the videos because they were not made with the same quality as my other videos and I was using a pack from big battery, and I do not like them at all.
@@WillProwse I've seen almost all of your videos in the last year or two. I did watch the battle born video. I'd love to see them videos you took down, or make some new ones on this subject. Thanks!
@@off-gridengineering3377 I should fire up the old refrigerator and do some tests
@@off-gridengineering3377 sorry, I never know when someone is a long time viewer or not. My bad
@@WillProwse YES!!
I'm planning on locating my LiFePO4 battery rack in an unconditioned storage closet within an open carport. Where I live, the ambient high temperatures average around 30C throughout the summer, but can hit 40C for maybe a week or two. I see some conflicting data on cell degradation at these temperatures. Should I simply just try to cool the rack to ambient temperatures during the summer with increased airflow, or should I try active cooling -- maybe a recirculating chiller or small AC?
Will, do you have or can you do a lifepo battery maintenance video? I’ve searched, but you have a ton of great content. Thanks for what you do, this video helped me out, and quite timely too.
Referred by Jessica Kirsch. What a find! Liked and subscribed. 😃
Always well informed! I built my own using this method!
Will be putting my battery's, in the heated basement of our camper. So the only time they might be even close to 32 degrees. Camper will be shut down, with battery's switched off. Hope to our 6 solar panes and the battery's installed by fall on our camper. Your book came in today.
This is my sticking point in my overlander build. 2:00!!!
After looking at this video I decided I *do* need internal heaters for my batteries. I have them stored in the non-heated garage in the back of my camper. so cool air can run under the car and make it way colder. They sre not in a plastic box (I build a wooden box around them instead, but thats only to deflect items from accidentally hitting the batteries, not to insulate in any way shape or form.
I also drive fairly often into snowy areas, like up a mountain.
I decided to do something similar to what you did, with the sewage heating pad, and use a terranium one, which fits sandwiched between the cells. I am planning to make some kind of insulation as well which I can put on in the winter and take off in the summer, but havent planned that one out yet
Awesome Will! You've forgotten more then I'll ever know!
I have a portable trailer with computer equipment in Utah where the winter temperature ranges from 14 to 34 F depending upon the day and the sun. I ended up getting the battleborn batteries for reliability and the heater. Solar is the only way to charge the other than going to the trailer with a generator. So I need to ensure the solar few hours gets the most charge. It worked well for long stretches. During some unfortunate circumstances the batteries ended up being drained and before we could get they were completely empty. So we had to heat the batteries up w the generator before we could even recharge. I had brought with added reptile heating pads ha ha to assist in the process. The batteries are insulated but it’s an unmanned trailer so given enough time it’s cold. The unfortunate part is we were getting a lot of solar during the week that we were not able to get up there but the temperature prevented charging. Live and learn Love the channel
I was thinking of using some of mine on a pole for security cameras the way it looked to me was if the temperature was under spec the solar charging energy was diverted to the heating pads untill conditions improved then switched to charging. Perfection
@@williamvaughan1218 this is a great idea, have a separate circuit that runs directly off solar(and battery as backup) to run the heating elements with whatever power is available! This is possibly the best idea I've seen for keeping batteries charged with solar 100% hands-off and reliable. GREAT IDEA once again!
I bought an EarthX LiFePO4 battery, which they market to snowmobiles. I used it in sub-zero temperatures and it ate itself. No low temp charging protection. So low temp charging protection is very important. But even in sub-zero it could still push a few hundred amps to run the starter just fine. So I think you're right.
Discharging is ok charging below freezing kills them
@@williamvaughan1218 Yup, but after you start the vehicle the alternator starts charging the battery.
@@joels7605 not if you use a BMS with low temp discharge cutoff. And diesel cars and electric cars don't drain the 12V while running, if you use an un-heated lithium battery with no low temp cutoff you will ruin it in a gasoline vehicle if its below freezing.
@@eldiablooooo EarthX sells a 12v battery as a lead-acid replacement. It's sealed with an integrated BMS. It does not have low temp cutoff. Also if you start a vehicle the alternator DOES charge the battery for the first few seconds/minutes until it's up to voltage.
Haha! Getting the batteries to below 32F in the UP of Michigan in mid winter would be no problem!!! Hmm, but not to buy the internal heater pads... Thinking here. I trust your knowledge. Focus on insulation or keep in a heated living space. What about if my RV is in storage, or in the parking lot while I stay in a hotel since it is so cold?
Yeah --Will!!! Great video and thorough clarity for my solar questions:)
happy day Bro!
Thanks for this Will and all your great content, I'm learning a lot from you!
Would be nice to get some more in depth talk about low temperature charge protection options, as there's sometimes deals on lifepo4 without the low charge protection so I'm tempted to purchase those and figure out an alternative way to do a low temperature cut off from all the charging methods(alternator, solar, shore power) and it's not clear whether that's a bad idea.
All I can do is vouch for my 2 UNheated Battleborns. I have an off grid near the Canadian border The heat went out and they were as low as -30F for a month or so. As soon as we got there, heated the place up everything seemed fine. We use a Rich Solar MPPT 40 amp controller. So far, so good
Yup, said the same for a long time, I've even done tests and measured with the Victron VRM and temp sensor to graph over time.
For offgrid rv use I never really saw a use for those heaters. Just as their mass makes them resistant to getting cold, I’d imagine those resistive heaters would have to run a long time to bring the cells up if cold soaked down in the single digits. Better to mount them inside furnace heated area. Where the batteries were can become a storage area (for items that aren’t temperature sensitive) so you wouldn’t loose any space.
I have a bit under 200 ah of the headway cells in my car audio build. They're in their own cooled box but I haven't installed heaters on them n it got pretty cold here in northern utah so instead of risking it I pulled them out. Which sucked cause it was like 18 deg. I know folks will read this and scoff but for me coming from Vegas, that shits freezing! I'll be installing heating pads in the airing when they go back in. Thanks you will, excellent video as always
I just want to throw it out there how thankful I am for these videos. I'm plenty smart, but have little kids and little time to research stuff on my own. I've been through hundreds of your videos while burping my baby and whatnot. I'm currently putting together my first system on my pop-up truck camper so that me and my family can adventure off grid for years to come. So thanks. And, fuck the haters that get on here trying to contradict you all the time. I'm sure this started as a hobby simply to help others. ✌️😎
Very cool!!!
I absolutely love your videos.
The tip on placing the batteries in a chest freeze is a jem (for artic conditions)
Good as always.... William for president 👍
Will is right. I have 4 AGM batteries in my van. I live where the internal temperature of the van while in storage gets below 10 degrees sometimes. This year, just before I left for warmer territory, I came up with a solution. I put a dog warmer pad over the top of the 4 batteries (with insulator in between for safety). Nice and warm. I also put the dog warmer pad over my lithium e-bike batteries in the downtube of my e-bike. Nice and warm. No problem.
I will be upgrading to batteries with low temperature cut off in a few weeks. I'm going to use the same dog warming pad. Once I am underway, the inside of the van is heated via an Espar heater. No worries.
Since heat rises, I doubt the efficiencies of heating above the batteries is really that useful. Try putting the heater pad under the batteries and you'll need it on for a lot less time.
It's very important to note that Lead acid based AGM is a very different chemistry from Lithium based LiFePo4.
@@dougle03 *HEAT* doesn't rise. Pure heat, as in IR radiation, emits equally regardless of gravity. Warm *air* rises, sure. But that isn't the same thing. In this case, a blanket will help trap the warm air close to the batteries where as a pad under would allow all that warm air to quickly rise away from the battery.
This is pretty easy to test - lay on top of a heated blanket and then lay under the same heated blanket. Which configuration do you feel most warm?
I actually contacted one of the manufactuers of a LiFePO4 battery that I was considering and asked if the batteries could be insulated such as we do with outdoor water pipes when we expect a winter freeze. Or heated with a 12V warming blanket, etc. The manufacturer of that battery told me neither of this methods will work and that I need to remove my batteries and take them indoors to charge! ??? Hardly a feasible setup for a person living in their van and relying 24/7/365 on solar and the battery bank!
Right on Will !
I live about 75 mi south of you and I have long thought that I would prefer a battery I could keep inside instead of one that cannot be safely charged inside a living space. I am on a fixed income and built a lead-acid bank years ago because I could add capacity slowly. So, as you noted, a battery that is unlikely to be exposed to low temperatures is at very low risk.
We live in SE Michigan. I have had a 1 gallon bottle of distilled water in my unheated garage over the winter. Last week it was frozen solid as a rock. Today it is half water, half ice, we have a "warm" spell. The low for the next three nights is estimated to be about 12f and the high for the next two days 20f. Just to see I melted the remainder of the ice out of the jug and filled it with OUR 39F TAP WATER. Will check on it in 3 days. PS: have a 100ah SOK and last time 2-3 weeks ago its low temp disconnect was working....could not charge it.
Advice appreciated. I have a small hunting shed where I stay the night occasionally, a 100 watt solar panel and will be using a Rich 20 amp MPPT controller soon, have it on order. I have been using a Rich PWM controller for the last two years. My AGM 100 amp battery is in a wooden box (2" thick boards, not air tight though relatively so) sitting beside the shed. My power usage is relatively low with everything DC - lights, fans and a small DC TV.
I have been listening to a lot of discussion about the LifePO4 batteries and trying to decide if this type battery is appropriate for me. Since I only stay at the shack now and then, there is no regular drain on the battery to heat up the box most of the time. I can insulate inside the battery box in some manner, so I am wondering if perhaps a very light draw from a DC light burning inside the shack or some other low-draw device might provide enough heat from discharge to keep the battery warm. Is this something I should be doing with the AGM battery as well? Temps here in winter get below freezing, in the 20"s fairly often but also in the teens and single digits occasionally. We did have -5 degree temps for two or three days this past winter. I am relatively new to solar and trying to learn more, and I do appreciate any information any of you might be willing to share. I will say that the system I currently have has served me well for the last two seasons, but it appears that (guessing) the battery may be losing some power since it has dropped below 12.2 amps with light usage a couple of times, and more often the 5 bar battery indicator on the controller drops to 4 bars fairly quickly, such as with only 14 watts of lights and a 10 watt fan running.
Is a LifePO4 for me, to give plenty of reserve power when I need it, or am I better off to continue with an AGM battery? And, will a low-draw device provide enough heat to keep the battery warm? As I say, I am trying to learn more and I know that most of you guys have far more knowledge about solar applications than I do. I appreciate your input.
Well said will.. thermal mass is real. If your using your batteries they will create their own heat.. it takes along time for that mass to cool down/freeze
Will great explanation video. Really helpful, your positive enthusiasm is contagious. On another aspect of off-grid installations, could you cover the aspect of availability of solar panels build with perovskite cells?
@Jerry Malisz - solar panels make DC output, so just wondering why you are interested in having that output come from a particular kind of cell? FWIW as far as I know, there are no commercially available perovskite cell based panels for sale yet. The manufacturing technology is getting better and they are getting close to prime time, but then again, it’s been the next big thing since 2008 when I first tuned into cell tech.
Good focus lately about temperature. Would also be interested in how to have focus on high temperatures, which are prevalent in Africa, Australia amongst other regions.
Last month we had some single digit temps, and were without power for a few days. My Bluetti was at about 43% and had been sitting in my truck. Needless to say, the Bluetti was not going to take a charge after sitting in the truck. It took about 4 hours in a 60 F environment to warm up enough to take a charge.
I wish I had just started using the Bluetti in the extreme low temps to see if the inverter would have generated enough heat to get the unit up to charging temperature.
Since I use the Bluetti as my "on-the-road" power source, I think I may put an RV tank heater around it so I'll be good to charge in most any weather.
Try styrofoam and mylar reflective blanket.
I was all cued up to get a heated battery from Ampere Time but watched your SOK video and that changed my mind. They also offer a heated one but after seeing this video I think I will skip the heat. And due to their form factor I might be able to fit 2 of the 200ah in my motorhome in their stock location under my steps. My big issue is that this is outside. So winter could possibly be an issue. I think I have room to build a box or at least make a reflectex liner for this compartment.
Hey bro! Quick question - what are the advantages/disadvantages of having 1x 300Ah battery vs 3 x 100Ah batteries?
Less Obstructions Connection and Cable wise
Will should do some cool "insulation box" build with stuff from HomeDeopt or something like that.
Check out the insulated box I made in my past videos
@@WillProwse Thanks, I tried a few searches, but nothing shows up.
I have a bluetti in my chicken coop in NH. The low temp cut off has been triggered. Had to bring it inside to warm it up before it would charge. I installed it in a Styrofoam cooler with the top cracked open and never had a problem after that, even when temps were below freezing.
On the opposite end of managing cold temperatures, have you done any videos on managing hot temperatures? I have concerns about using lithium batteries in hot weather where temps can reach the high 90s and under cover temps can easily exceed 110 degrees. What kind of damage actually occurred when temps exceed storage or discharge temp limits? Thank you!
Will! Been with you since that scary night in Eureka when the tweaker’s were freaking you out. Bro, you deleted most all of your boon docking vids. They were great.
Another great posting. Thanks Will!
Hey will I live in San Gabriel and only go to San Diego back and forth I don't need to have all that I just need lithium batteries right.
I live in an area where outdoor temps are frequently above 110 f I want to build a battery / inverter setup inside of a small chest freezer that is controlled by a thermal switch to keep it near 77f and a heating pad that keeps it above 35f in the winter
Will/et al: Im a new subscriber and your videos are a help. I will use a 50amp 5th wheel for extended stays in North western Montana this winter for skiing. It can get down to -15 during the day while I will be away from the RV skiing. Im building the system now . I will be completely off grid using a 3K generator for BU. Ill need to run a combination of propane and 120 Volt heaters on /off through the night. Ive gotten away with this before with just the generator but getting tired of waking up freezing so Im looking for improvement this year. Im considering Battleborn and SOK with internal heaters. Im probably capable of rigging something up but you did not go into enough detail on that. My situation is Similiar to some other comments with a front un-insulated /unheated compartment made for a generator. However I wont be able to retreat to heated shop with VAC for repairs: something the videos Ive viewed on TH-cam so far overlooks. Im looking at 3-5 200w, 24V solar panels in series, 400AH SOK or Battleborns and a Victron system using the MultiPlus II inverter. Any feedback is appreciated.
-40 when I head S for the winter ❄️🥶 so yes I do need heater pads. I have 3 of them, 12 watts each for keeping RV holding tanks from freezing. They were much cheaper than the battery heaters I have seen advertised
winter last year I couldnt charge as my batteries where cold, a week ago I thought oh no winters coming! then remembered I bought some small pads to stop my water tanks freezing and never used because of the heat under the van from the diesel heater, so now I'm fitting the 4 50w pads under my 8 cells, so like 25w on each 305ah cell. I thought under would be better as heat rises, and my cell is measured near the top
Minnesota, always have low temperature disconnect because heating pads and therostats fail.
If below temperature sensed by the bms charging current is diverted to heating untill conditions improve.
I'm in Canada where it gets -35c, we store our van in winter, so we do have the internal battery warmer as part of our Victron set up provided by the VAN builder. Worked great last winter. My fear though is the heater failing. The battery won't charge because of the BMS etc, but I'm worried that the battery will freeze and get ruined? And my big fear is the heater and the bms fails haha. So every day I'm out there, making sure it works in below 0 weather.
Makes sense. 🙂 I was actually thinking that it made more sense to just use thermal insulation so it is nice that someone confirmed that my thinking was correct.🙂
@@sawmillmods1659 Yep, insulation alone in climates that spend long periods below freezing will require additional heat either through cycling of the batteries and/or heating pads.
Thanks again for the great information and presentation..!!
Excellent video, thanks
Thanks 👍
I'm in Comifornia lowlands so I'm more likely to need coolers than heaters. Let me know when they come out with those. lol
Thanks will. I really love your educational videos
I guess I just wasn't aware of how cold it had to be before batteries would be damaged. If it's just 32 degrees you're right, it's unnecessary almost everywhere in the US. Thanks for the video!
Almost everywhere in the US!? I beg to differ!
32 degrees? Ah yes, April-May in luxurious southern Alaska.
Do a video on lithiums that are good for boats. Also there seems to be a lot of emphasis on cold\hot sensors. Is that necessarily important in all cases?
Can u do a teardown on the heater pads?
We had 18 F⁰ outside at 10 o'clock in the morning. My batteries have a sheet metal roof but open on the side. The BMS said that the internal battery temperature was still 36.4 F⁰.
Oh yeah, My van gets well below freezing as I don't run the (diesel) heater all night (or use it every day). Only when I wake up. I've camped and rode my moto a hundred times below freezing, no big deal. Where my batteries are stored it takes a while for them to warm up. I'll install a big heated tank pad for next winter (or just come back to Florida for the winter).
The problem with insulation of course is it can slow the warming up process - it works both ways. I've got 2 soks but I'm seriously thinking of a couple of 300 ah unheated batteries - because you can never have enough.
Hi Will,
Thanks for teaching us about solar and solar charging..
I just bought an off grid home in Northern Maine. The temps in Winter get to -#30 degrees a few times. Also I am not there all the time. I probably will be there 20 days a month.
What is the best way for me to handle the batteries in this situation.
Thanks for your help
Jack
My question would be at ultracold temperatures. I see that most LFPs are rated to -20C for discharging. Would there be any damage to the battery to power the heater pads below this temp (low C rate discharge possible)? I have an offgrid cabin in Canada and will often get to -30C or colder in winter. The solar panels will get covered in snow once I leave, so can't really keep a load on the battery to self warm it above the -20C limit.
Oh good question. The internal resistance would be so high that you would have a tough time using them.
@@WillProwse Thanks Will, you are a wealth of knowledge. I've been debating this use case for a while. You may have given me an excuse to search out LTOs again. If only they weren't so expensive
I have SOK batteries I live in northen Canada. I have only had low temp cut off once, it has got to -4C inside the house with them still working they seem to hold some heat. The time I had low temp cut off it was -10C in the house ... about -35C outside.
All I know is that the android tablets we have in our school busses to do pre and post trip inspections on, work terribly or not at all, once the AM temperatures are below about 22 degrees F overnight. If the bus sits idle for more than one night (like over a weekend) then the temperature had better not go below 32 degrees (even if the device is fully charged when the bus is shut down). So YES, we need internal heaters that switch on/off with the weather.
Good to know!!!
Thank you
Hey Will, I would like to use a lifepo4 battery in my truck, and being in the midwest it gets cold. The problem I would have is if the BMS cuts off the load (not just the charging) at low temperatures, it wouldn’t start the truck.
How would you recommend insulating two 12v 100ah batteries? I am debating on travel trailer installation, whether I can continue to store outside in a black plastic holders, or insulate the holders, or go through whole process of bring the batteries inside under the bed and pulling wires from the frame.
I would like to know if I can use one of these lead Iron phosphate batteries to run a solar panel fence charger on a ranch where it some time reaches a 120ﾟ
Great video well explained
living in my part of cal, 1000F elv. a bit below the snow line (3000F), but can get a good dusting a couple times a year, but 99% gone that day.
not really sure if i need the added cost of built in warmers. with that said. it can get down into the teens for a couple day-more. so if not heated, then yes needs low temp cut off.
my rv is not the best for insulation, under the bed it gets colder than the cabin does. (no air movement there).
would just a dog bed warmer, heating pad, something like a water hose heater line, maybe a incandescent work light? i am thinking just some heat there can keep the temp up a bit.
but yes more "stuff" between the outside air then the factory location. that is open to the night air.
and yes sitting in the yard, it is plugged into the home source. (sad pg&e).
only thing always on is the microwave clock, the fridge, (only 2 things that must have ac power to work),
and the stereo again just a clock (12V DC). no lights, heater, etc.
in "camp" if it is cold outside, (no ac power input there as i boon dock). the cabin heater is on. at 63, creaky joints, i do not like being cold.
Would this be a good option for an RV? Especially going winter camping?
Being from MN and our winters are BRUTAL (-10 to 30F is typical). WE NEED heaters in all our cells!
I store my 3kwh big battery 24v inside an old bathroom vanity with some cheep styrofoam insulation on the interior walls. When cold, I have a 40w incandescent bulb turned on inside. Just enough heat to keep it above freezing. My solar shed is otherwise not heated.
Which chargers won’t work for a battery with heaters in them?
Thanks Mark
I bought a 280AH battery and will be inside my van. I also purchased an Olympian Wave 3 heater. So, I'm wondering if I build a box out of the 1 inch pink foam with a high R value work? I saw some guy put towels on top and around the battery also? Eventually Id like to install the self adhesive heating pads but Im still not sure how to wire them and fuse em.
Can I wrap my batteries with something like a yoga mat to help keep my lithium batteries a little warmer? I moved them from my tongue to inside my travel trailer but still a little concerned about the early spring and late fall trips here in Utah.
Wouldn’t it make sense to insulate your temp sensor as well?
I sure hope the low temp disconect works on my SOK batteries. They are in our un insulated machine shed and it's going to be 4 degrees farenheit this week. There are two 100 and hour. Batteries and only 200 watts of solar panels. That probably is not enough current to harm them even if the low temp cut off failed.
I live in the high desert of Oregon, where you get a chance of sub freezing temperatures any time of the year. I would need to keep LiFePo batteries indoors here, as I have seen it near -30C since I moved up here, and old timers talk about it being below -40C. I currently own a high capacity AGM battery, but will probably be buying LiFePo batteries soon.