@@shadow_gringo3595 then you don’t get this guy. He simply doesn’t care. He knows that people like you hate the nerd community. He knows that people get angry over petty shit. He doesn’t care anymore and plays for the sake of playing it. He’s making bank.
To move away from the videos main topic, when Datto starts talking about how his life has improved over the last few years at 6:30 with his now wife and just looking at him physically in the videos top right compared to a few years ago, you can't help but feel happy with seeing how much improvement and positively has gone towards his life and health. Keep on keep'n Datto
Now I'm remembering the video Datto does Happiness where he explained how fucking miserable he was in that shit studio apartment in LA and how he was going to move to Washington to hang with da boys. What a fucking glow up man.
My biggest issue with the “worst guy just use Div” idea is that, as an lfg sherpa, usually the worst guy doesn’t have Div. Many a time, I have been able to run better damage on my own, but I am the only one with Div. I then have to run it, increasing the likelihood that my team can do decent damage but I rarely actually see that.
part of this is because a div run of garden requires a full clear in one session with all the puzzles, the final boss has some bugs that are unfortunate, and because of this nobody wants to do the puzzles because if the person running it for div disconnects, that's at least an hour down the drain. I would like garden's not-actual-encounter parts get a redesign, like the final step of the div quest just needing a clear of the final encounter and the puzzles being related to, i don't know, red border guns? extra secret chests? SOMETHING to reward doing them more than just whenever someone in your clan wants divinity.
Yeah the dad with 14 minutes to play a day isn't going to have Div. I raid regularly but no one in my friend group wants to run GoS because it's too fucking fiddly
@@Dogman415 nah GoS isn’t bad. Most people hate it because the only time they have ran it is when they got Div. I was the same way. First run took about 5 hours. Then I decided to run it again and just kept running it. It’s one of my favorite raids now.
@@cegathelich actually they changed that, a friend of mine, 2 clan mates and I ran a GoS divinity run just yesterday and shortly after we started the puzzle for Div i had something urgent come up (and I was the one who started the puzzle) but the clan mates we played with (who already had Div) told us that even if you just join at the end if anybody constantly stayed in the Raid that guy will still get divinity so after halve an hour they people who disconnected bc of inactivity (like me) joined the few that still were in the raid and just continued with the raid and puzzles and got divinity at the end tbf im not sure if my friend or one the 2 clan mates stayed the whole time in the Raid so im not sure what impact it has if *nobody* with the quest stays in the raid
I was so mad at that because all they needed to do was stop fucking shooting it and move out of its line of sight, but they just stood there impatiently shooting it becoming their own nightmare.
"I shouldn't need to hold myself back just to feel something" is lowkey one of the best Datto script lines ever. Great video, the vitriol from dissenting opinions is the number one reason I could never be a content creator.
@@emiliobatres9581 its not really holding you back by decreasing the debuff by a bit. youd barely notice a thing. plus, there are other options and ways to improve
Damn, that melting point mention towards the end hit hard. Back when we didn't have Divinity and all these other debuffs, I was the Sunbreaker Titan risking my life trying to shoulder-charge a boss to debuff it, that could possibly instakill me. All for the ability for my team do that sweet increased damage. It required skill and timing and it felt good when you had a great damage phase or outright one-phase a boss.
Having been around since Crota's End, being able to witness Dat's mental transformation over the years has been an immense motivational booster for me. I'm glad you're in a much better state than you used to be, good on ya! My opinion on the Div drama since this is the first I'm hearing of it: As someone who used to raid pretty actively, I could care less what happens to the gun. One way or another, my team's gonna get through the dmg check, be it Div or something else.
The only note I will add is when someone brings up the "objectively, there is always going to a worst player on the team" point to say Div benefits that player, I would like to point out that most of the players bad enough to get designated permanent Div...are those who don't have it. Because they don't do Garden of Salvation. Because they don't raid. And the one time they do have enough time to raid, they're going to go to the newest one. Not back to GoS.
sounds like they are an issue and they need to be unable to raid for not having proper gear, honestly. just get the right weapons to play end game content, what's the issue?
not really, i've only done gos twice and both were div runs, i only did it again because i thought you got the quest at the beginning of the first run. but even though i consider myself a mid player i never use div 😈 it's just not fun
Aztecross had the perfect solution in his video where you should just increase the crit multiplier for enemies so that div decreases the crit multiplier, like shuro chi. Give players the option where they can really optimize their damage by trying to go for the boss’ natural crit spot or play safer and aim for the div bubble (Taniks comes to mind). The div bubble would reduce the “optimal” damage. Bungie could alter boss health where if you go for the natural crit spot it would give a really good chance of a one phase while going a div bubble route would at bare minimum be a 2 phase or more
@@nicholasgrogan856 the issue is that Bungie built these encounters with things like div and well in mind. Warpriest is a huge example of this as he can still take 3 phases in a normal run with a half decent LFG team with div. If we want to talk about risk and reward, upping the crit multiplier on a boss like that who moves and hides behind cover can really show how optimized teams can be without the need for div.
@@nicholasgrogan856 they're both nerfs bro, of course you dont see the difference. The kicker of Aztecross' point, is to reward skilled play but sometimes have div be needed because raids are all about being prepared and being rewarded for preparness.
If they were to nerf Divinity, I would say it would be best to do a bit after releasing a raid where it is clearly and distinctly not the most optimal option. You may think it impossible, but there's definitely ways they could accomplish this: -More encounters that aren't straight DPS check boss fights (Siege Engine, Totems, Gatekeeper, LW Vault, Exhibition) -Encounters where damage is done through relics that are unaffected by Div -Encounters where the team is split up, meaning less players benefit from it -Fights with multiple, smaller and quicker DPS checks (Shuro Chi, Atraks-1)
I would also add more fights where the boss actively moves around the area. Meaning you still have to do some form of aiming to land shots. While also keeping an eye on where the boss is going. We need more fights like Rhulk.
@@Ellyark I was thinking of a boss fight like that, say the boss sucks all the color out so you fight the boss in black and white. You do something then one person get there color back, and can start shooting the boss. Basically instead of all 6 shooting the boss in a dps phase make it so only 1 person at a time is in the dps phase
13:14 one option to "nerf" divinity without nerfing is to have something like shiro chi where hitting divinity gives you lower damage the hitting the real crit
@@sound4117 As someone who doesn't play the game all too much and is more of a casual player, I do believe that Div needs some sort of nerf, big or small. For most raid encounters, if we have someone being the Div user, that takes a lot of the fun away from boss encounters as all you really have to do is look at a circle and shoot, but that is just my opinion. I feel like Div should still be considerably powerful, but not powerful enough to render most options of debuffing useless
thats just a mistake though because div wasnt around at forsaken release, i think best options as dad said are making something better that requires more skill but higher debuff or nerf div mag size
Would love to see voids weaken become much more prevalent in rebuffing instead of divinity, would make nightstalker and voidwalker shine more. Remember when tether was the best debuffing option on a boss and it was always used for that?
yeah but that's a super. weaken is way more accessible and should not be as powerful. as a supplement or better than nothing option? sure. but on its own it should not be an option for dps due it's ease of access. literally just toss a made and it's active with no exotic or build crafting whatsoever. no thanks.
@@wooloob6275 it's an exotic. that's the difference. a subclass is mandatory. you cannot play the game without it. while an exotic is a choice. and you only get one of them. you also get a functionally infinite amount of grenades i.e. weaken. keyword of my previous comment being: accessibility. bonus word: balance.
I think the solution to this problem already exists in the game with certain bosses. Raise the crit multiplier of bosses to be higher than the div bubble, or in reverse lower the crit multiplier of the divinity bubble to be lower than actually shooting a bosses crit spot. Lower skill players and teams who need it still have the easy damage beam and for higher skill teams it becomes more efficient to hit your shots and cycle debuff cool downs.
the thing is: if i can still finish the boss by just shooting him in the divinity bubble, why should i make my life harder for me and aim for the critspot. i maybe do it for the first few runs with lower light level for the more dmg, but after the first week i will only go for the bubble. and if they nerf the bubble so much that you cant finish the boss by only hitting the bubble, people will be unhappy. there is no incentive to go for maximum dmg in d2, so people will do just the barely necessary things to finish the bosses. and whats barely necessary in d2 to finish bosses is a very low floor compared to other mmos like ff14 savage raiding. in those games you also have "casual" raids, but you wont be able to get the best gear by only doing that. in d2 you can get a normal drop which deals as much dmg as an adebt weapon. adebt weapons increae your dmg by 0%, just increases the ease of use. if you dont go for the BiS gear in FF14 you will make around 6-8% less dmg. so people go for that because they like to do more dmg. 1 fix would be to just block dmg perks on normal drops. with that you already greatly increase the incentive to get adept weapons. then you increase the hitpoints so much on master raids that spamming divinity is no longer enough dps to finish the encounters. if you only do normal raids thats ok then and you can sitll use your divinity, but if you want the best gear possible you will have to learn the critspots etc.. if you cant do that because you dont have that much time to play d2 that fine. but why do you need to be able to get the best weapons if you dont have time to play the game ?
@@dontknowaboutthis7425 Because for people that don't find it as hard to hit the crit spot they are able to finish the fight in less damage phases. The same reason people stack damage buffs like well+font of might+debuff. For the majority of people it won't change anything, which is fine I don't think it needs to be nerfed for the majority of the playerbase BUT for the higher end players who can land shots and want to express their skill, they will have the ability to deal even more damage if they opt to use a different debuff and land crits instead of relying on div
The "rich people problem" might have been a more apt analogy than i first thought. New exotics ? Let's equip the perfect set of mods on this specific build around that one exotic that shits on the current legendary lost sector and blow through it in 3m time to run it a couple dozen times per hour. Boom, exotic acquired within a day. I can now trivialize an even wider variety of game scenarios with my gear. You're a new player ? You don't have that old mod that's only available on rotation from Banshee ? Or you don't have the exotic that's a random drop and have no way to acquire specifically ? Tough luck. Not only do you suck at the game compared to the other guy, but your build is trash for that encounter. You'll have to learn, like a lil kid thrown on a heavyweight boxing ring. Oops, legendary lost sectors rotate, so you've only got a day every so often to learn it. Too bad. Or you could run a couple hundred hours of strikes and hope to get lucky before you burn out. What fun. Basically, the rich get richer in this game. You want to know my lukewarm take ? Almost all the avenues to get exotics at a decent rate require champion mods. Arc singe and overloading champions ? On a season with overloading LMG mod ? Thunderlord that bitch. What's that ? You don't have a single arc weapon compatible with overloading mod ? 33% damage penalty. You don't have any good LMG or bow at all ? Flat out impossible. They know it, they literally had to hand out thunderlord for free to everyone. This mechanic makes the game trivial if you already have a hoard of stuff to pick from, but ball-bustingly hard for people with specific blind spots in their gear, with no in-between or reasonable way to fix it besides running braindead easy content for dozens of hours on repeat. Casuals are not the ones complaining. Casuals are satisfied with the normal campaign and blue gear. The people complaining are the ones who got past that point and realize how they're stuck with either easy content with terrible RNG, or crazy hard content for their level for good RNG to catch up with everyone. There's a gap between casuals and sweatlords that's just not addressed by the game. That gap keeps widening every expansion, every season, and sweatlords don't notice it because it was hardly noticeable when they started. Stuff was balanced around the available gear pool at the time, which was available to everyone. Now, the exotic loot pool is super diluted and some really strong mods are straight up unavailable. Divinity is another good example. A weapon that trivializes raids, that requires raiding to acquire. People who are good enough to get it don't need it, and the people who need it can't get it. There's no bridge from casual to sweatlord without getting carried anymore. The gear game puts a giant difficulty spike in the way of mid-level players while trivializing everything for end-game players at the same time.
This is the best comment with the most reasoned take seeing the problem from everyone’s perspective. Ultimately, it’s a Bungie problem because they haven’t yet learned how to balance their game for all of their players to have a place to be satisfied and be able to progress or challenge themselves.
The good thing is that Bungie is really improving accessibility this season. Even casual players now have a Riskrunner, Thunderlord and a top tier LFR and a set of armor that doesn’t take 99 enhancement cores to put mods on.
Ehh, i don't blame them, A) Vitriol is a good word for it, it does get pretty vile out here, B) it has a good ear feel. A lot more easy to stomach than "bile". I would have gone with "ichor", but again, good word.
They don't even know what that means anymore. Product of a feminized society. Can't have basic heated arguments. Admitting to hiding from comments ffs, while in this profession.
Just don't change it to: Take a shot every time Datto appears to be a nerdy, little, submissive bitch who couldn't tear his way out of a paper bag. People would be dead within ten minutes.
As a Dad of 4, one raid a year guy (maybe that precludes me), I'm cool with hard end game. I was kinda 50/50 until Datto brought up the coddling/not forcing people to get better issue. Pre Wife/Kids my D2 crew used to play WoW and I spent a ton of time failing/learning how to tank in BC and Lich King. Then Panda boi came out and turned my carefully honed rotations into 2 buttons. RUINED the game for me. Hard PvE gives the opportunity to fail and try again. The one issue though is the harder it gets, the less willing '50 clear guy' is to take someone like me through.
That whole coddling argument is kind of BS. What is hard is all relative. Some players feel the endgame is too hard as is, some think it's just right and even those who think it's too easy will heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be. I would bet $100 that Datto and Saltagreppo would heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be and would we argue one of them wants to be coddled?
@@mattf8779 W take, however I think we already know Tractor will just replace div if div gets nerfed so it doesnt really matter (including floating bosses like sanctified mind and oryx) I've tested on both and it is possible to keep tractor up for a strong debuff
@@tysonmartin6169 the thing is though that tractor was both widespread and downright not needed for heavy dps. I played a ton of last wish, scourge and levi runs and really the big must haves were nighthawks and tethers. Couldn't get those? All good we'll just two phase him. Nowadays you will need to have top of the line dps to meet those damagechecks with very difficult to access gear.
@@tysonmartin6169 For sure which is why if/when Div gets nerfed it won't be long after you will here tether, radiant, tractor cannon, well, bubble, banner shield, echo of undermining or the seasonal mod that debuffs are making this game "too easy" and how players that support keeping these things just want things "handed to them".
Shouting into the void but my take: Keep the crit cage and remove the debuff entirely. I do think salt's take of making it _negate_ other debuffs is a step too far. But simply removing the debuff retains its identity, gives room for other debuffs (tractor cannon, tether, sundering glare, etc.) to exist, and brings it down a peg to make it more of a tradeoff. Without the debuff the calculation of whether sacrificing a player to use div is worth it becomes significantly more complicated rather than _always_ being worth it.
Yeah, Tether doesn't need to be more useless in end-game content. By removing the debuff or decreasing it, Quiver or even Shadowshot would shine more like it did it the past
I wouldn't mind it being a significantly smaller debuff it it stacked with all other ones too. Like the current debuff is 30% right now I think? If they made it 10% or even 5% but it stacked on top of the other forms I think that'd still be good.
my current take is that I think lowering it to 15-20% would be better ultimately (still overridden by tether but makes it statistically viable as 5x 20% is equivalent to the lost damage you get with a div user, and 15% makes it a sacrifice for crit ease of use), because buildcrafting is better when a subclass can work in tandem with weapons (respectfully, salt's take doesn't allow that).
I think a much smaller debuff would be alright, like 15% AT MOST, so that other debuffs actually take priority and aren't immediately overshadowed by a special weapon lmao
At 6:39 when Datto started saying how far he came, it made me smile uncontrollably. I'm in a similar boat myself, though nowhere near as far along as Datto, but hearing how far Datto has come since 2016 is just super inspirational. Keep being awesome!
I think the one option I suggested on another video was a Sundering Glare-type proc but have it stack within itself (with diminishing returns, a cap, per-player, however it gets balanced). It'd still be skill-based, but it'd also help you support your teammates. Giving options to get that debuff would be nice
"Why don't you just not use it?" Well, for the same reason I don't really want to cut my own leg off. Why would I actively handicap myself for no reason.
@@ophnix2510 and yet Trinity ghoul and tons of other shit exotics are used more. If it's require in every team there's 140k kings fall completions this week so 140k div users 1 for each team. Think that many people use Trinity ghoul🙄
actually some more difficulty options would be awesome. imagine if after your first clear of a raid your next explicit challenge was a completion without exotic weapons/armor. on the other end of the spectrum a ridiculously easy mode so entry level players could experience raid content as form of training. it shouldn’t be that hard to implement we already have an array of modifiers to alter difficulty
@@tcritty2812 They never said it would give the exact same loot. I'd say if this did exist training mode with probably have Powerful Gear (Tear 1)? Whilst the harder mods would go to Pinnacle and nromal raid would be Powerful Gear (Tier 3)
@@AlsoIMainYoshi well what about locking the weapons behind the harder modes. Ultimately that’s what people will be doing the raids for, and will have the most difference on a player’s experience. Similar to what they do already, with some encounters only having certain drops. Before you try and tell me that armour makes the same amount of difference as weaponry…no, it doesn’t.
This remind me of drama related to Ultrakill: The devs heavily nerfed a weapon because it went against the game's design philosophy. The change did not make it weaker, but less abusable and more punishing to use in certain situations. So the immediate reaction was one crowd yelling "skill issue", and the other complaining that the game now felt too hard to them/ less fun. Most of them were the same people that liked the game before this weapon was even released, and they now began review bombing the game. This weapon in question is called the whiplash. It's a grappling hook that can either pull you to enemies, or enemies to you. Since healing in Ultrakill is only possible via damaging enemies that are close to you, the whiplash removed the risk involved in healing. Low health? Just pull a small enemy (that is stunned during the hook) towards you and fully heal. It was no cooldown for easy heals. The nerf changed nothing about the grappling hook itself, but made it so you could not regain lost health briefly after using it. Meaning if you were doing well, nothing changed. If you keep getting hit, it no longer removed the risk healing involves. This change basically fixed a problem in the combat flow. it is an unlock you get halfway through the game, which is pretty tough. Players already were used to NOT having the weapon and shouldn't have grown to overly rely on it. But the initial nerf was brutal, which is why the Devs reduced the amount you can heal instead of preventing healing at all. The hate the Devs received was utterly repulsive and in no way justifyable. Those changes? You can remove them in the pause menu by activating assist mode. The game was giving you all the tools you wanted to just have a fun time with it, or to improved if you wanted to get better at it. All using assists does is put a blue border around your level score, and high scores are supposed to be a reward for players that have mastered the game. The people complaining weren't actually complaining about the game demanding too much of them. They were frothing out of their mouths because the game was no longer handing out gold trophies for free, and took it out on the developers. The developers have been giving their all , and have been pretty open about development. But I guess that might change now with so many awful people having joined the community.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The games not as fun when something’s introduced that messes up the combat flow and the challenge of the game. It may be easier, but it’s not true to how Destiny 2 has always played.
Yea im so sick and tired of ppl like this man. These are the same ppl that think we as a society should be handing out participation trophies. If u don't win u don't deserve a fucking trophy. If u want that trophy and then get fucking good and prove u deserve it.
The fact that the guy who described burning maul with sound effects during the forsaken vidoc was ran off Twitter due to death threats is really disgusting
I personally am on the fence about a Div nerf I also think that a huge part of it is just how encounters are made anymore, moreso than the gun. It doesn't happen often, but Bungie does occasionally make scenarios in dungeons or raids where Divinity is not the way to go. So I think more diverse encounters would help for sure, but that may just be a bandaid fix as well.
i think val ca'uor will always be the hardest raid in terms of combat. i've never tried so hard in PvE in my life, maybe levi prestige comes close, but that was only cause of team execution issues. also i think this is LITERALLY your best video, well done
@@NAPainter ^^ this, i felt compelled to use tractor cannon to clear waves and waves of adds just so i could have some room to breathe, a truly suffocating shitstorm of fuck. really (aside from like, underleveled nightfalls) it's the only time in the whole franchise where i've felt weak. those were good times (legitimately)
Double primary after whisper, xenophage etc came out val was a total joke. People don't wanna hear it but the community sucked ass at raids back then and I did prestige mode of that raid a whoooooooole lot I have the full ornament set and all.
Saw a post on Twitter that was actually calm and an interesting suggestion about giving div a little nerf. It retains the ability to both give the debuff and the crit spot, just… not at the same time. Change the weapon to have an alternate toggle (with a visual/buff indication of which one you’re on- that’s also important) to EITHER give a debuff or a crit spot- that way depending on the situation or boss, you can swap up the best way to use div. On a fight like oryx or golgoroth, where the crit spots are fairly easy to hit, you can use the debuff to great effect, but in fights like Taniks or Rhulk, hitting the crit spot is a lot more tough- so the bubble crit would be much more useful. That makes the fights a bit longer as you would have to go through more ammo and potentially more phases to kill the boss, but you can more easily hit shots. On the other hand, higher skill players could utilize the debuff to potentially kill the boss faster but at the cost of higher skill.
I'd be perfectly fine with this. This is better than 95% of the hot takes thus far. This keeps the identity of the weapon and also gives it a better trade off.
If Div gets nerfed I’d probably be fine with it, but my biggest problem I’ve had since D1 is that sometimes it feels like you’re *required* to run a certain exotic to beat endgame content(cough G-horn and dark drinker) That’s why I love the caretaker encounter, your damage is literally capped so you have more options to damage and don’t have to 1 phase the boss, it feels like you have more freedom and fun
Exactly!! I'd be perfectly fine with a difficulty increase if it means I can use what I want to run. Being shoehorned into using lament, div, g-horn feels awful. I constantly get shit by my friends for not using lament in duality just because I desire to use something more enjoyable.
People actually have found out that you can two phase caretaker now. Just take it easy on the second plate, get him near the cap, then throw everything at him. I even saw lfgs that required you to know how to two phase caretaker.
Same. And I always hate when people chime in with the "you can beat everything without using this exotic" phrase but it just goes to show how little they must interact with the community. Try convincing an LFG team that they don't need to use optimal dps weapons or strats and you'll very quickly find yourself all alone in orbit. The reality of the situation doesn't matter, only the perception of the majority of the community. And a majority of the community deems it neccessary for most boss encounters.
In a “Real MMORPG” there is something called rotations which is specially important for raid boss instances. Each group of player a require a certain class type (Tank, Healer, Dps) to properly and skillfully do their rotation to keep the optimal damage. I think that is what Datto refers to when he mentions other debuffs that have to be timed correctly. On both sides of the coin: -casual players rarely even have Divinity because it takes a Raid which anyone barely even does anymore. And due to the LFG being far from optimal you can’t really expect someone who plays a couple of hours a week to NOT want such an easy to use option. -Raids should require more skill. It is the endgame content that is the most attractive and rewarding. It SHOULD require not only mechanics but proper use of a subclass and ability to beat a raid encounter. But that SHOULD NOT happen until a proper LFG comes imo. It needs to define better what each person will do in a raid and which subclass.
Increasing crit multipliers would actually be a perfect way to handle it. Casual players wouldn't be upset because nothing would be nerfed and experienced players would now have the option to deal more dps without div. It would be a win win situation.
@@boneidle8420 casuals would rather have an unfinished recycled low tier content easy game instead of any sort of challange. I still remember when the destiny community was actually dedicated and defended the difficulty of the game.
the problem with that is that div would have to ALWAYS cover the crit spot of the boss. as if you apply div to a boss with a high crit multiplier it doesn't actually override the multiplier. div bubble has its own 1.3x multiplier. so if the bubble on kalli didn't cover her head you could still hit her head for 2x damage, bringing divs problem back to the forefront. I don't think forcing div bubble o cover the crit would be hard, but im just saying its something the devs should be wary of if they do decide to nerf it
@@alexandremachado2019 same, PvE is easier than ever and way easier than it should ever be. 40% damage resist through resilience alone, overpowered exotics, low difficulty content and yet the casuals still want it easier. Shame really, would be awesome to have some content that is just savage and an absolute slog to complete and get the "holy shit, we just did that" feeling. Never again most likely.
The reason Bungie is constantly 'making things easier' is because for the longest time barely a fraction of the playerbase touched endgame anything, making it incredibly difficult to justify expanding on that level of content. Instead, it constantly got cut back. We used to have Normal and Hard Mode raids with different mechanics, different armors, weapons etc. back in D1. But so few people did raids, much less Hard Mode, that it was impossible to justify continued support for it. Things being 'difficult' in the realm that high level players would like didn't force people to 'improve'. They just didn't touch the content at all. Meanwhile, since they've started making end game content easier and more accessible, player numbers for those activities have ballooned, and with it, Bungie has increased their support for them. Now we get new end game content every season instead of once a year. We can even see this in action for individual raids. Vow had much, much lower player numbers than DSC and VoG because it was made much more difficult to appease the high end of the hardcore crowd who thought DSC was 'too easy'. I'd argue that in this case, it's streamers and top tier players that are missing the forest for the trees. If Bungie followed through with what that crowd wants, and dramatically upped the difficulty in raids and dungeons and so on, all that would happen is that player numbers would crater, and then they'd either reverse course or simply cut back on the amount of content they make like before. I don't know about you, but I'd rather *not* go back to a single raid and maybe a dungeon a year.
I can totally understand the whole Divinity debate, both sides. So maybe we can get a compromise, what if instead of nerfing it per se, they raise the skill required to proc the bubble, what if the Div player has to constantly hit the crit spots on the boss or enemy to make the bubble appear, and that hitting the bubble doesn't work to keep the effect going? That way the Div player doesn't have to think "Just shoot body then hit bubble" but instead "Keep the beam on the crit spot, everyone else hit the bubble", also making the beam-tapping a little bit harder but in the end rewarding for dedicated Div users. Also it can help shape future bosses with more movement or other gimmicks on damage phases (Warpriest, Rhulk, etc)
And with this rework, div is now useful to the skilled player or improves the players accuracy as they get used to managing consistent crits and everyone eventually doesn't feel hassled by div because now it's a weapon dependent on more accuracy and skill to the point where "the div bitch" or any div user can realise "wait a sec, I am hitting a hell of a lot of crits, I can do pretty good dps"
While I agree with this take. This probably helps datto's perspective on "The easiest shouldn't be the best option" The whole drama is there because the gun became mandatory, in the hands of those who don't want to be forced to use it, this wouldn't change anything because they will hit the crit spot anyways and therefore bring it Everytime. The casual side will be annoyed they require more skill to use the gun, and the hardcore will still have to use it, so no one wins and everyone is mad. It will need a total rework which is not gonna happen tbh.
@@MattBiersackSanders The rich get richer, essentially. How about instead of hitting crits to proc bubble, you had to nail a rythm minigame like a variation of a perfect reload of some sort ? Or test some other skill than aim, so it would still be skilled, but allow people who suck at aiming to express their skill some other way ?
@Clockwork Man yeah exactly, especially Gladd who was complaining about "emblem handouts" when the DSC contest mode had easier light level requirements. In the end Gladd was wrong about the whole debacle, Contest Mode is a novelty that is starting to wear off for most of the casual playerbase as we had it for 4 raids now (DSC, VoG, Vow, KF). Most just check a bit on YT/Twitch to see the best strats and then do the raid on non-contest mode.
Personally I think the game doesn't need to be harder so much as I think that the combat should be more complex. I really enjoyed Doom Eternal's weakpoint system, it's a brilliant way to increase difficultly without just giving shit a bigger health bar or forcing me to use a fucking scout rifle when it doesn't compliment my build. If individual enemy types had individual weaknesses (like how if you shoot one of these scorn flail dudes they explode, or if you shoot off a hobgablin's head it can't do the invincibility thing.) I think combat could be significantly more interesting instead of just click on the bad guys while crouched behind a rock.
I remember when Div was shown, I thought it was going to be a Heavy weapon because we already had an Arc Trace. As my teams only Div user (no one else has bothered even getting the quest), I enjoy the group play aspect. I feel like the support unit in the mmo party. If Div is going to get a nerf, I would not want to touch the Cage. It's the identity of the weapon. I would suggest either reducing or removing the debuff to allow others to contribute or make it a heavy weapon. Let it take over the ease of the heavy weapon.
I agree, if they did a sandbox-wide debuff tune they could make Div have a good spot via tradeoffs. Balance its debuff strength versus its total uptime. They did it with the charged with light versus well of tenacity, where charged with light has a lower damage resist buff but more uptime, and well of tenacity is the reverse.
@@Enforcer6k About Well of Tenacity... they might have just nerfed these into the ground because they use the same damage resist as Omnioculus and that got nuked
Personally, I wouldn't mind them removing the debuff but keeping the crit bubble. Would make it easier for hitting crits without blowing every other debuff out of the water. Would also like them to address PvE flinch at some point as well, as it's been notoriously bad. Other than that, I could care less as I don't really run div or see it run all that often in my sessions.
Exactly. A big reason why the crit bubble is so good is because the slightest aoe damage will flinch the absolute fuck out of your aim. That or that annoying fucking thrall that bungie always loves to send to tickle you when you’re trying to focus on the boss target
Nerf whiners don't even wanna acknowledge things like flinch issues. Datto actually accidentally refuted one of Salts points. Salt wanted to make it harder, Datto says Bungo would scale down boss health... 😑
@@BlueFHS a teammate losing out on damage and losing an exotic slot just so we can crit bosses with already massive crit spots is a waste of an exotic slot. The only place that it would be useful I'm is Rhulk and that's it
@@bannedmann4469 what Datto meant by that is that because encounters are now balanced with the idea that Divinity will always be present, bosses are generally more mobile, or have significantly harder to hit crit spots, or have over inflated health pools because it’s designed with the fact that you’ll always be using div to debuff their health. You could argue this is healthy for the game because it can give us raid bosses like Rhulk which are more mobile and interesting to fight as opposed to a big target that sits still in damage phase. But you could also argue that if div was nerfed, Bungie wouldn’t balance the game AROUND it and using other things would be viable. It’s not so much a difficulty thing as much as it is a meta thing (why use anything else other than div)
So hear me out just give div two fire modes, one is debuff no bubble the other is crit bubble no debuff. By doing that you keep everything people like in the game as an option, force more choice on players and actually give void Titan a use when well exists since it could be providing the void grenades since bubble is useless at the moment. This seems an easy fix for a few issues where I struggle to see how people could really complain, you could still achieve everything div currently does you’d just have to select a few things to do it but it also is a direct nerf to the gun.
This also only works if you still follow salts suggestion and make it so div debuff can’t be overriden. Otherwise you still get the bubble and just use tether.
I’d love to see them make div kinda like blistering necrosis from deep rock galactic. A weapon you use to create a small crit with a higher multiplier that you have to reapply every time you break it. I think it’s be interesting for the div user to have to apply div, swap to put in damage to their crit they made and swap back to div to keep reapply another one. Edit: by “like blistering necrosis” I mean it should be pretty small to compensate
Maybe make it like that, but remove the swap aspect so the div user has to keep div out. Maybe even make it start out small, but sustained damage makes it bigger, so the tap firing strat becomes a trade off of skill.
There was one good viewpoint that I saw a little while ago concerning the necessity of div, and that's PvE flinch. For some bosses like WP, who move around, lob shots, have a timer, and have adds, hitting these necessary critical is damn near impossible sometimes because of the massive amounts of flinch we are taking on a constant basis. I guarantee you, and boss that I can take as long as I need in order to kill it, I can without Divinity, but you throw that time limit on, and suddenly you have no ther option. You NEED that damage, you need ALL of it, and you need it NOW.
this gets brought up a lot and its not really the main issue with the gun is making crits easier, that functionality I think most people agree is what should stay. its doing that and the best debuff up for the whole damage phase and just being hands down the best option in many regards. I think everyone been targetting its crit multiplier or its dubuff in suggestions on how to fix it, my idea is drop the debuuff to like 15-20% and make it not proc perks that rely on crits, everything from 3rd/4th times the charms to whisper. Keeps most of its utility but there will be room for better options and you get rewarded for headshots still
Well maybe how Datto described that after nerfing Div they can “tune raid encounters without div” the sorta whole picture type part. Realizing how much precisions shots matter they’d most likely reduce the flinch of boss shots as too not make it unbearable, warpriest always used to move the difference is what feels like insane flinch compared to D1s. If flinch was tuned for PvE Scenarios then him moving is what would make that encounter semi-annoying but not unbearable; sure with flinch and him moving and Sister head bobbing right now it seems a little insane. But after a divinity nerf they’d be able to tune boss encounter more accurately which would include flinch and a variety of things.
I think this is a big D2 issue. The amount of damage it takes to stun a boss is purely ridiculous - one tether on D1 warpriest and spindle (D1 whisper of the worm) would stun lock him for the entire phase
@@MrFierygrave I totally understand the debuff being an issue, as it's the only one that has such massive strength overall. Tune that down to the pits of hell for all eternity. But the utility of divinity? The fact that i can actually proc that fourth times or triple tap or focused fire reliably? I think if we lost that, many entire raid encounters would have to be retuned to accept the fact that precision shots would simply be unreliable. If we want something that'll decrease its uptime, maybe just tone down it's ammo bags and make it a heavy?
Destiny has expanded its debuff selection with the 3.0’s (weaken, suppress,scorch, jolt, etc), which is great. Now it’s time to balance these. No one is trying to scorch Rhulk. I would love it if all debuffs were viable, and divinity weren’t objectively the best.
Friend suggested to just reduce the crit multiplier on the bubble, and subsequently raise crit multiplier on the actual boss crit spot. You can then either go easy mode, or try and sweat it out for the big deeps. I would suggest reducing the debuff value to 15-20% OR make other debuff sources more viable and comparable to div. Add more debuff sources. Then you have the batshit crazy idea from Cross where the bubble moves around the boss which isnt even a bad idea imo. It would make it not brain disintegrating, shooting in one spot for like 45 seconds. Salt suggested you only get bubble, with no ability to apply any other debuff. No. I dont know, plenty of ways for bungo to figure this one out, or not "waste resources" and try and make new dungeon and raid bosses more mechanic dependent instead of just shoot funny vex laser make boss piss their pant.
In my opinion, in a world where weaker debuffs now exist (void weaken debuffs), it probably makes more sense that Divinity matches those (15%), and not the higher end of debuffs (Tether, Tractor Cannon). Other alternative would be that consistently hitting crits on an enemy with Divinity makes the spot show up and sustain (though, they would have to make sure the ball shows up in a different spot than where you're shooting to avoid overlapping, so, basically something like Taniks, and obviously not allow the perk to extend by shooting the ball yourself).
Then there wouldnt be a reason to use it you can just throw your nade and call it good, you would then just go for damage then at that point.... and also there would be 0 reasons to run those exotics anymore... just make bosses harder to benifit from div by moving them around or they could just make a boss whipe you if you crit them... but thats just not fun.... i think div is fine.. high end players find the game to easy cause they run it with a stacked team every time a new raid comes out id love to see them run lfg's but they "dont have time" for that.... but lfgs are like how 90% of the d2 comunity completes raids / end game.
@@Honed- people would still run it because of the bubble, it just means that for harder content like day 1 there becomes a skill gap where people can coordinate higher debuffs and hit there shots
@@Honed- currently there is no reason to run tether or tractor cannon. Div will still have a home even if it doesn't give 100% the best debuff and make crits super easy, bosses like Rhulk and War priest who move a lot or have difficult to hit crit spots will still appreciate a div. it just wont be mandatory for every encounter going forward forever. bungie doesn't need to create a health pool damage check like war priest. I don't consider myself a high end player, though not a causual either i guess since i play a lot when an expansion comes out. but LFG's are incredibly easy still, being abel to LFG and get 3 Oryx kills within 3 hours of reset is crazy easy. There is a middle ground though where Div isn't the best at everything while also allowing players to use it to get through difficult content
Perhaps I'm thinking of the Bungie of old, and new Bungie is different, but the idea that they would go back and adjust boss health after nerfing Divinity seems vanishingly unlikely.
Here's an idea: bungie should give Divinity the same treatment valve gave to the Equalizer. In tf2, there was a weapon that gave you both speed and damage boosts when on low HP, and because it was so OP, it was split into 2 weapons. One gave the speed boost, one gave the damage boost. If they did this with div, we could have Divinity granting the debuff but not the bubble, and a new exotic (probably granted to all players with divinity) that grants the bubble but not the debuff. You can even give it a cool name that's an antonym of Divinity, like impiety or something. This way, teams can choose to use either one or the other, or both. Using both would actually reduce your team's total possible damage (assuming both weapons deal relatively negligible damage), since 4*1.4 = 5.6, which is less than just 6*1. It's still a powerful option, but requires heavier investment to get the full bonus, and will be less universally useful with certain encounters not benefitting as much, for example encounters where more players have a job other than dps, like warpriest, where you'd be sacrificing a lot of damage using both while players are off hunting knights.
@@lancebriarwood503 nah you could solve that easy by making the bubble smaller and making it change locations every time the div or exotic user has to reload the bubble relocates
You think someone like Datto is funny? I haven't found the dude funny for years now. He's just some tryhard little nerd who likes to complain about stuff that most normal people don't mind.
I agree completely; though, I think with a nerf to div and yknow not having the big blue bubble to shoot, a reduction in flinch would also be very nice as flinch is absolutely ridiculous in pve imo
Yeah if they nerf it they need to undo the balancing they did around the gun. And the flinch in PvE needs a definite tone down. Just look at Warpriest when he is shooting you.
YES. PvE flinch is utter bullshit with anything that requires actual aim, to the point that if it weren't for Divinity giving you a massive target to hit, most precision weapons would be rendered completely useless in an instant for almost every boss fight where precision weapons are the best choice. Not to mention Whisper, which is already powercrept and nerfed into borderline uselessness, which would suffer even more than most, because literally all of its damage advantage is supposed to come from continuous, rapid precision hits.
@@thepeps101 No, it's the other way around: Divinity makes the flinch not a problem, so crazy high flinch increases people's want to use divinity. Not using divinity makes the flinch more painful because the flinch will make you whiff shots. It doesn't really matter how good you are, the flinch in pve will rip your aim into orbit at some point if the boss does any kind of shooting at you while you're shooting at them.
Problem is not div, It's boss fight design. The fact that we're still grouping in a circle as 6 to do damage after 8 years of Destiny is wild. Encounters like Rhulk and Caretaker address the Well of Radiance issue. Encounters like Shuro Chi, Crypt Security, and Atraks tackle Div. It's not impossible for Bungie to design encounters that are fun, yet don't feel like the purpose was to dodge Divinity. They've improved it over time too (evidence being that most of those examples are from the 2 most recent brand new raids).
i'd love to see what % of the playerbase has this gun and is willing to use it it's mostly to me just higher end skill players that ask for div and even then no one WANTS to use it
It really is just the higher end of players wanting it nerfed, lol I have Div and have had it since Shadowkeep - and personally, I love using it. Feeling useful for me team as the debuffer.
holding a laser doing minimal boss and not needing to aim is a really boring task, hence why people don't want to do it. higher end players know what are the best things in the game and that's why they enforce divinity. they have played any activity dozens of times and they know how long an activity should last. why would you honestly want to spend 3h on atheon when you could spend 13 minutes? it sucks to be dragged down because you decided to help some people who are bad at the game, you get punished for helping others
i'd literally never lfg again if div got a big enough of nerf, some of those guys... they're crazy... double primaries... sweet business for boss damage... then again, not even div could save that (but it would help)
I like using div, I'm not too good at hitting crits or buildcrafting yet so it gives me the opportunity to contribute to my team in a way that really helps everyone. Plus it's a fun little gun.
as somebody who's currently getting into raiding, Div is extremely valuable, but not necessary in most cases. generally if you bring a taipan and well, you'll do fine for damage. most wipes are from people just not hitting shots, or doing something wrong. Div makes DPS checks negligible for the most part.
Just finished my first garden of salvation run with five buddies who also never had done it. We all got divinity, and after losing six hours of all of our lives...... hoping it's not getting nerfed soon lol
i personally think div should work like this, have it build its buff from 15% to its max buff over the use of the gun it also holds its peak buff for short duration until trigger is held again to maintain buff, this then making it still up there but not killing it and making it vault exotic number 1284, this also eliminates the tap the trigger method thus another slight nerf, this overall should open them to make OTHER options please i want options and builds and stuff to do that result in the same reward
The funny part about your meme ending half way through the video is that I do actually watch Gotham Chess so I actually thought it was my recommended lmao
In a perfect world, perhaps a good change to div would be an increase to its base damage ***slightly*** and simply giving the crit spot. Cuz i do miss tethers being.... you know.... useful, outside of mobius quiver for burst. In reality, i prefer the big tether, but div existing eliminates the need. Additionally, i still dont have div, despite having functionally the final step to the quest, because no one wants to run garden and i am, in fact, too casual (read: dont have the time to play often enough) to gather up a team to suffer through garden. Because, for some reason, it is the most despised raid since spire of the stars.
Personally, I like Divinity. I think it’s a cool exotic that allows players to have a supportive role, sacrificing their own damage to buff the team, which there isn’t a lot of in Destiny. It’s also a great accessibility weapon that can enable players with physical disabilities or low skilled players to participate in Raids and feel like they contributed (whether it be USING Div to help the team or being able to hit more shots thanks to it). Prior to watching this video, I was in the crowd that saw all this debate as rich people problems and nothing more. Waahh I beat contest mode world’s first raids three times but the game is too easyyy, make it harder for me Bungooo. And to an extent, I can understand the perspective of people saying how Salt, being a massive “tryhard” who plays the game for a living, can’t know what’s best for the community as a whole. However, I’m trying to look at this more obectively. Do I think Div needs a nerf? Maybe, but it shouldn’t be so severe it knocks the gun out of the meta completely (like Anarchy), or strips away its core identity. I see three potential solutions to this: 1. The Crit Multiplier: make more encounters like Shuro Chi, which have a base higher crit multiplier than Div, making Div a dps loss, but still usable if people want the ease of use. This would make Div not optimal in future encounters while staying the same in some current ones. 2. The Tap Firing: Since Div can be tap fired to conserve ammo while still fully maintaining the crit bubble effect, it can lead to it having a much higher uptime than I think is intended. Maybe make it so that the second that the gun stops making contact with a target, the effect disappears, so that you have to hold down the trigger for it to work. This would keep the crit bubble and debuff intact, but it would reduce its uptime in dps phases and make it less forgiving on mobile targets. 3. The Debuff: perhaps the most notorious part about Div is the massive debuff it applies on targets. This is one of the highest in the game (even higher than stuff like tether), cannot stack with other debuffs, making them irrelevant, and has significantly higher uptime than other debuffs in the game. This could be solved by either removing the debuff or making it significantly lower (around 5-10% maybe), BUT allowing it to stack with other debuffs like tether, weaken, etc. This would encourage the use of other debuffs in a dps phase as opposed to trivializing them cuz div is better. Let me know what y’all think about these solutions, and which one seems the most viable. And keep things civil please!
I like that you're looking at the gun from a design perspective, and while most folks have assessed that the debuff is the biggest hurdle to overcome in Div's usefulness/dominance ratio, I don't think anyone has taken into account the Tap Firing angle. My opinions: 1) I've seen this come up a lot, and I think many don't understand that this creates undue pressure on future game development to have bosses with increased precision modifiers, but with similarly large health pools. It exacerbates the arms race between player damage and boss health. 2) I like this idea a lot, even if I don't think it will solve the issue fully. Moreover, I'm willing to bet that the flexibility that the Div Bubble has that allows it to be tap fired is there as a product of the bubble having a "ramp up" and "ramp down" effect. Its not an instant shut down if the player is flinched off target, or if the boss dodges away (like Warpriest). I think it would be an interesting and valuable change if the ramping on both ends was shortened significantly so that "tap firing" would be considerably harder, but not at the expense of the occasional miss against a boss. 3) I agree with this one. Its the "Div gives a better crit, or better debuff, not both" solution that I most support. Having its debuff be smaller but stackable is ideal, but I'm personally okay with it not having a debuff at all.
I really think getting rid of the debuff and keeping the crit spot is fine. It allows people to not worry about hitting shots but still means you have to rotate debuffs properly
agreed, it makes teams decide if it would be better to put an actual debuff on him like tether etc and hit the normal crits. The 35 percent is way too much
I think the complaint is against the crit bubble and not the debuff. People are complaining about the lack of skill by "aiming for crit spot" and landing shots. I dont really get it though tbh. If you want a game to feel harder then play a single player game not a online pve based game where not everyone has the same playtime or skill level.
And then people just run Tether Hunter, and nothing changes. Almost as if this is an entirely uses discussion, meant for content whores like Datto to whine that the game they play 12 hours a day, with other people who play 12 hours a day is "too easy".
The problem is the amount of flinch recieved in a Pve based game and the fact that many bosses now have erratic movment making hard to aim. Rhulk, atheon, warpriest.
WP and rhulk walking around while simultaneously damaging/flinching the everliving fuck out of you has to be the most unnecessarily annoying thing EVER
what this game needs is diversification, instead of buffing and nerfing specific kind of weapons, make all weapons viable for dps so people can use different strats and not focusing on what is meta...
Here’s an idea : make it kinda like Ager’s Scepter where there is 2 modes : 1 where it simply adds the crit bubble but with NO debuff, and 2 the charged mode where the gun applies the crit bubble and the debuff BUT it drains your super (also make the debuff 40% because it will last less long)
That is probably the best idea I've heard. Makes the gun actually interesting to use and might for people to choose between a Well/Bubble or the huge debuff. And it would mean that keeping the debuff up the whole time would require some planning, like stacking orbs in the dps area or running energy converter and stacking charged with light.
People please listen, there are people who think sweet business is a good form of boss damage. I know div is in every road group in every raid but it’s necessary, I’ve ran with groups where we NEEDED all four phases of a raid bosses damage windows even with div. I’ve meet people who think the best way to use lament is to spam it’s uppercut. ITS UPPERCUT. I get that Div is the most overused exotic right now but some people, frankly, suck SO BAD that div is a necessity. Especially when I still, STILL run into people doing VoG and are using Destiny 1 info on how to do it.
This is because they designed the boss health around people having div. If they didn't have to design around this weapon, boss health would be lower. Please watch the video. he literally says this.
No cap. Bosses like sisters, rhulk, Sanctified Mind and Warpriest either have so much flinch you can’t hit them or their crit spot/movement makes it too hard to reliably hit them. Div isn’t the problem I can barely shoot the sisters with anything besides a rocket flinching my character back halfway or the warpriest just moving around to where you can’t shoot him. Who thought these were good ideas lol. Also atheon’s crit spot doesn’t exist
Gotta blame Bungie kinda for making Div feel mandatory. I mean,look at Warpriest. A bulletsponge boss running around like a headless chicken that attacks you and makes you flinch(why is flinch even a thing in PvE?). LFGs will struggle without Div. Atraks on the other hand was a nice way of making Div useless by allowing players to do good damage with swords or supers.
You're severely overstating div. Sure div makes it easy but lfg we do enough damage fine without div. Even with div I still aim for the head. Nerf div then it'll just never be used again and people with go to the next best thing
I'd increase the crit multiplier on the bosses and make divinity ~80-90% of that (or whatever current multiplier is). That way you reap the rewards of hitting shots but still get a fair bit of benefit from divinity
I highly doubt anyone will read this, but I might as well say it. I think it would be fun if the game was harder, but I don't personally think that nerfing div is how I would do it. I would be perfectly fine with taking more damage and having to focus more on survivability, but me and my friends usually aren't fantastic at dps and divinity can really help us with that. It's disheartening to be able to do raid mechanics almost perfectly and still end up losing because we just didn't do enough damage. Divinity can really help with our damage issues, and I'd rather the game make us play better in other aspects instead of just dealing more damage. It would be nice if they reduced health, but Divinity is still a nice option for my group when we can't do enough dps. Maybe I'm crazy or maybe I just need to get good, but that's my personal opinion.
I think the biggest takeaway from this video was the point of "It's in the game, therefore Bungie has to design around players using it." Very much tied into power creep, and if Divinity was nerfed into the ground, bosses could be rescaled. Warpriest on day one was a super hard 4 phase and, dare I say, impossible without the use of 1-2 people with Aeon's. Even Oryx was very healthy as well.
The community at large complains when warranted nerfs arrive because it destroys the "power fantasy". The integrity of the game is of no interest to the majority of players. I believe we spoke about this years ago - people like us avoided the no ads glitch in leviathan because it destroyed the integrity of the raid, making it not fun. However, we weren't the norm. Same goes for riven, or net limiting in garden. It's why I've lost interest in the game. Lightfall will be the first expansion I'm not buying. I miss Y1(pre whisper) when we were weak. Power fantasy has ruined the game for me.
@@ynybody1382 I mean two different things 1 is a weapon that the game designed around 2 is a glitch that literally breaks the encounter Also I ask do you really think you are willing to do Legendary Campaign 3 times in a row and feel the same experience every time
Can be said for a lot of things too. Add density has been ramped up but it seems like everything can blow up mobs of adds now or you can just camp the door. So people who don’t use one of the 47 weapons, perks or abilities to deal with mobs of adds think it’s too difficult. The other people use Trinity Ghoul w/ catalyst (just for one example) and shoot the ground to wipe out the whole room. Massive divide between the people who think the game is easy and the other people that don’t want to get better or just want to be able to use a blue weapon in the raids like they’re a streamer or something.
@@unknownredacted3513 Two things can be different and have similarities. In this case, the similarity is destruction of game integrity. Also, I have nearly 30 days of prestige leviathan played. I'm willing to replay content ad infinum if the content is good. Divinity makes content bad, which is I have quit destiny along with most of my friends.
The only thing I would say is that the div quest is one of the more lengthy ones. It would be a shame to see it cast into the abyss of our vaults never to be used again. It is also the only trace rifle that has any utility in the game.
@@ynybody1382 dude, such a tiny tiny tiny percent of the player base has completed GoS, and even less have divinity. This is so out of touch. Lots of players have to put in so much effort to get divinity.
I think it's because a nerf to divinity is an improvement for top level players because they get have more variety and challenge but for low level players its a whole new level of difficulty. To use the jeff bezos analogy imagine he does something and gets fined $10,000 yeah that's nothing and at most a minor inconvenience where as for the average person a $10,000 fine is crazy and outrageous and very much changes the way they do things. It affects the lower skilled player more and so it feels like salt in the wound for someone who can't regularly get into a raid with a solid team.
Here’s an idea for the top level players if they want a challenge:DONT USE THE FUCKING GUN! Why should all of us be punished because some elite players think things are too easy with it, that’s so fucked up.
@@abigaileileen3161 I think the main issue is that since D2 released, the exotic loot pool diluted a lot and a bunch of really strong mods are just unavailable outside of rare shop rotations. The only way to get the exotic we want like we used to is legendary lost sectors, but because of champions, if you don't have a weapon that supports that season's mods and matches shields/burns, you're just screwed. Basically, mid-level players can't bridge the loot gap with sweatlords without running strikes for a couple hundred hours. They wish they had challenging things to play to their level, but there's nothing between "braindead easy" and "have that weapon or die" difficulty. Any activity that rewards exotics at a decent rate is built around players have all of the gear at all times, and it makes it too hard for people who just don't. To keep it accessible to them, they have to make it easier, but the sweatlords are already bored so they can't. They need to bridge the two. Get rid of champions and increase difficulty some other way that doesn't hinge on people just following a guide on what to build and hoping they have everything in their shopping list already in their vault.
@@Darkness-dv6sz it isn't a punishment unless you're bad at the game. I'm no elitist by any means (I only get to play 3 nights a week at most) games should cater to ALL players not just the "biggest voice" which in this case the casuals have the voice above all since they are the majority. straight up tellin another player that is better than you that they can't have a voice since you're a "sweat" and be honest the majority of you are like this. I don't believe that EVERYTHIN a sweat says should be followed because it has been proven time and time again that, that kills a game, but makin the game so easy that its straight up BORIN is a game killer too. We NEED an in-between and Div bein a "solve all" isn't an in-between. Plus, where is the accomplishment if it's all easy cuz one person is holdin the trigger.
@@DarkAngelMaximus Casuals don’t have the biggest voice in the community, the streamers and TH-camrs do. I can count so many instances where the big name players give a suggestion and Bungie does it. Most people don’t care if things are boring, they want to get a raid done and the loot for it, Div is an easy way to get it done. If you care so much about a raid being too easy or you want more challenge, make posts that ban Div, it’s such a stupid simple solution where the people that need Div to get loot win, and the people who don’t want to use Div can just…not. I bet you that without Div most people wouldn’t have gotten past Warpriest on Day 1
While I personally think the gun does to much and agree with you on this take, I feel one solution could be to disable it in content that has challenger mode active. That would allow those that want/like the gun to still use it while for those who are actively trying something like worlds first has a more interesting/challenging experience.
Bingo Disable for day 1 world 1st races. And build encounters not worried about it because it will be disabled. Then Salt & other world first racers can find other solutions (that’s what he says he wants) and after race is over IF it trivializes the fights…. Who cares.
Only jssue is they make day 1 bosses too hard. You realise last wish if whisper of the worm was nerfed how it is now Noone would've been able to day 1 last wish. Bungie needs to work on either making weapons do more dps. Div isn't the issue. It's the weapon damage. I know div can make things easier but I don't want to have another dead exotic in the game.
To launch a comment into the void, I agree completely with your take. Honestly the fact it's a 30% debuff is wild, I know at the time it likely made sense since 30% was the only debuff in the game, but now that we got void 3.0 and 15% debuffs, I feel toning it down to that would make infinitely more sense. That combined with another thought I had of making Penance Proc more so it did a bit more damage itself in all other forms of content I think would be just, really nice, an make it not *entirely* needed if you had a skilled team with other more powerful debuffs. But, as you say, we'll see if anything like this happens. If it doesn't, still gonna play the game, and still gonna sit there in my raid group half the time and be like 'alright, who wants to div?' and hear crickets until someone finally says 'alright I'll do it fine' xD. Would really love to go back to the days were that wasn't needed and tether hunters actually functioned as a subclass, but, hay. Until that day, div.
The biggest problem here is that people overestimate how many people even have divinity to begin with. Low-skilled players (and even most average players) don’t have it as they don’t do raids unless carried (and carrying someone through the divinity quest is a hard mode challenge in and of itself). I don’t know if there are stats that we can look up, but I’m willing to bet that less than 20% of the playerbase even has divinity. Should we really accept that Bungie creates the (end) game that over 80% can’t play, as it’s too difficult without certain weapons or too frustrating as these weapons are basically required to complete any boss encounter, especially raids and hard mode dungeons? How about Bungie just ignores this 10% of the playerbase, that has everything anyway and is capable of destroying anything in its path anyway. You’re not changing the outcome of 1st completions of any hard content by giving bosses 30% more health. The winners are always people from within that 10% bracket. And instead, make it so the literal 90% can have fun in the hard content by removing gear requirements and having it be dependent on skill and communication alone...
I think for me the big thing that I like about Div is breaking up DPS team comp (you have a dedicated debuffer role instead of just 6 DPSers) and added accessibility (larger crit hitbox - especially helpful due to buggy and small crit spots on some bosses). But I worry that a pure nerf to its debuffing factor will lower its utility to the point that it will never be used.
Not to mention that outside of Divinity, we simply don't have any good or satisfying debuffs. Deadfall tether, the next most useful debuff, is like... six? Seconds, I think. It might be nine, but even if we tone down the boss health to compensate then... well I agree we have the problem of the whole team just being very homogenized. I like the support role.
if you think i'm reading comments on this one, you are out of your mind l000000000000l
goat.
Smart (unless you read this comment)
"stop criticizing streamers ☹️☹️☹️"
W
I wanna see the watch time drop off please
you can slowly see datto's sanity degenerate over the years by looking at his video titles and thumbnails
😂
He truly hates that he has to play this game to make money
I can tell from his nail polish lol
Seriously...guy needs to touch some grass
@@Mantrahiroshima ay it beats WoW
The ability to make drama from thin air in this community is just terrific
This nerd community is laughable. I mean look at this, grown man raging about videogames and eastereggs in cartoon movies. This is so cringe.
@@shadow_gringo3595 then you don’t get this guy.
He simply doesn’t care. He knows that people like you hate the nerd community. He knows that people get angry over petty shit. He doesn’t care anymore and plays for the sake of playing it. He’s making bank.
@@PG-20 as if I’d care if someone makes bank. Everytime someone lacks arguments the money comes up. Weak.
@@shadow_gringo3595 Like I said before, he doesn't care, and neither should you.
@@PG-20 I really don’t care what you tell me to do
To move away from the videos main topic, when Datto starts talking about how his life has improved over the last few years at 6:30 with his now wife and just looking at him physically in the videos top right compared to a few years ago, you can't help but feel happy with seeing how much improvement and positively has gone towards his life and health.
Keep on keep'n Datto
true
Datto truthfully is an inspiration
Now I'm remembering the video Datto does Happiness where he explained how fucking miserable he was in that shit studio apartment in LA and how he was going to move to Washington to hang with da boys. What a fucking glow up man.
I am still stuck in 2016.
this is the way
2022 Datto sounds like a really delightful and happy person. 2016 Datto will be really jealous.
As happy as a cynical person can get.
@@reynal_omnicide9217 cynical ppl can be happy
He should come out of the closet though.
@@angelgustavoulloagalvez3366 he's married to Danielle though...? You trolling?
@@PG-20 he is gay though. Sad he has to hide it, really.
My biggest issue with the “worst guy just use Div” idea is that, as an lfg sherpa, usually the worst guy doesn’t have Div. Many a time, I have been able to run better damage on my own, but I am the only one with Div. I then have to run it, increasing the likelihood that my team can do decent damage but I rarely actually see that.
part of this is because a div run of garden requires a full clear in one session with all the puzzles, the final boss has some bugs that are unfortunate, and because of this nobody wants to do the puzzles because if the person running it for div disconnects, that's at least an hour down the drain. I would like garden's not-actual-encounter parts get a redesign, like the final step of the div quest just needing a clear of the final encounter and the puzzles being related to, i don't know, red border guns? extra secret chests? SOMETHING to reward doing them more than just whenever someone in your clan wants divinity.
Yeah the dad with 14 minutes to play a day isn't going to have Div. I raid regularly but no one in my friend group wants to run GoS because it's too fucking fiddly
Time 4 u to start sherpa'ing div runs
@@Dogman415 nah GoS isn’t bad. Most people hate it because the only time they have ran it is when they got Div. I was the same way. First run took about 5 hours. Then I decided to run it again and just kept running it. It’s one of my favorite raids now.
@@cegathelich actually they changed that, a friend of mine, 2 clan mates and I ran a GoS divinity run just yesterday and shortly after we started the puzzle for Div i had something urgent come up (and I was the one who started the puzzle) but the clan mates we played with (who already had Div) told us that even if you just join at the end if anybody constantly stayed in the Raid that guy will still get divinity so after halve an hour they people who disconnected bc of inactivity (like me) joined the few that still were in the raid and just continued with the raid and puzzles and got divinity at the end
tbf im not sure if my friend or one the 2 clan mates stayed the whole time in the Raid so im not sure what impact it has if *nobody* with the quest stays in the raid
I find it hilarious that the hive wizard during that golgy fight was basically door camping like he was doing the summoning ritual strike
how the turns have tabled
even AI are cheesing us
I was so mad at that because all they needed to do was stop fucking shooting it and move out of its line of sight, but they just stood there impatiently shooting it becoming their own nightmare.
I almost didnt hear anything he said cuz I was so focused on the wizard 😂
11:30 is beyond genius. This is why we watch you, Datto.
Ikr!!! I was laughing my ass off
I love the time of the video when it cuts
He goofed me good. Ngl.
I laughed so hard
Absolutely brilliant haha
Datto doesn’t want div to be nerfed because then he’d have to work THAT much harder when pulling Jez through endgame content
"I shouldn't need to hold myself back just to feel something" is lowkey one of the best Datto script lines ever. Great video, the vitriol from dissenting opinions is the number one reason I could never be a content creator.
But as a counter point, should everyone else have to be held back so an extreme minority get to be challenged?
@@emiliobatres9581 its not really holding you back by decreasing the debuff by a bit. youd barely notice a thing. plus, there are other options and ways to improve
i doubt thats the reason for not being a content creator lol
@@Zecron04 they probably wouldn't just decrease it by a little bit, divinity is just too easy to use for the benefit of provides.
@@Zecron04 It'd really just make encounters longer. That's it. None of our dps options are difficult, even Izanagi's hotswap is quite easy.
Damn, that melting point mention towards the end hit hard. Back when we didn't have Divinity and all these other debuffs, I was the Sunbreaker Titan risking my life trying to shoulder-charge a boss to debuff it, that could possibly instakill me. All for the ability for my team do that sweet increased damage. It required skill and timing and it felt good when you had a great damage phase or outright one-phase a boss.
back in the days we have to stack tones of debuff before dps, that feels good too
@@hankaoc9532 yeah being solar titan with tractor was so fun on protocol and val cauor
Skill? 🤣
@@SwoleakhulTheBlind Compared to using Divinity, yeah.
The issue is that it works great for set teams but in LFG raids, you might not have enough players of appropriate skill to even hakfway pull it off
Having been around since Crota's End, being able to witness Dat's mental transformation over the years has been an immense motivational booster for me. I'm glad you're in a much better state than you used to be, good on ya!
My opinion on the Div drama since this is the first I'm hearing of it:
As someone who used to raid pretty actively, I could care less what happens to the gun. One way or another, my team's gonna get through the dmg check, be it Div or something else.
U mean u could *not care less
The only note I will add is when someone brings up the "objectively, there is always going to a worst player on the team" point to say Div benefits that player, I would like to point out that most of the players bad enough to get designated permanent Div...are those who don't have it. Because they don't do Garden of Salvation. Because they don't raid. And the one time they do have enough time to raid, they're going to go to the newest one. Not back to GoS.
Honestly, the only thing keeping me from trying to raid right now is that I don't have Divinity. Still need to go and get it.
sounds like they are an issue and they need to be unable to raid for not having proper gear, honestly. just get the right weapons to play end game content, what's the issue?
@@YuriG03042 what if they dont have shadowkeep?
@@smilyl6049 tell em to get a fucking job
not really, i've only done gos twice and both were div runs, i only did it again because i thought you got the quest at the beginning of the first run. but even though i consider myself a mid player i never use div 😈 it's just not fun
6:38 Hearing Datto say this about his wife and remembering Jez's video when they met literally made my day
Which video is that?
@@actionhudson last wish I believe
@@actionhudson Search for "LAST WISH but only the funny parts", more specifically on 6:30 and then 11:18
Aztecross had the perfect solution in his video where you should just increase the crit multiplier for enemies so that div decreases the crit multiplier, like shuro chi. Give players the option where they can really optimize their damage by trying to go for the boss’ natural crit spot or play safer and aim for the div bubble (Taniks comes to mind). The div bubble would reduce the “optimal” damage. Bungie could alter boss health where if you go for the natural crit spot it would give a really good chance of a one phase while going a div bubble route would at bare minimum be a 2 phase or more
Yeah I like this change. It's a trade off that makes sense for Div's ability.
You could do this or you could just nerf Div. I dont see the difference honestly.
@@nicholasgrogan856 the issue is that Bungie built these encounters with things like div and well in mind. Warpriest is a huge example of this as he can still take 3 phases in a normal run with a half decent LFG team with div. If we want to talk about risk and reward, upping the crit multiplier on a boss like that who moves and hides behind cover can really show how optimized teams can be without the need for div.
It is a really good idea. (Primarily) PvP players often have very good ideas how to make PvE better, in my subjective opinion.
@@nicholasgrogan856 they're both nerfs bro, of course you dont see the difference. The kicker of Aztecross' point, is to reward skilled play but sometimes have div be needed because raids are all about being prepared and being rewarded for preparness.
6:24 this is what i like to hear. matured, realized everything he ever wanted, secured it, moved up. absolute boss and role model behavior
It’s normal life???how is it role Model behaviour?
@@markreilly6403 because It actually shows what people should aspire to aside from arguing for literally no reason
@@markreilly6403 because it shows his maturity and how he realized what he was doing was doing more harm then good so he wanted to better himself
If they were to nerf Divinity, I would say it would be best to do a bit after releasing a raid where it is clearly and distinctly not the most optimal option. You may think it impossible, but there's definitely ways they could accomplish this:
-More encounters that aren't straight DPS check boss fights (Siege Engine, Totems, Gatekeeper, LW Vault, Exhibition)
-Encounters where damage is done through relics that are unaffected by Div
-Encounters where the team is split up, meaning less players benefit from it
-Fights with multiple, smaller and quicker DPS checks (Shuro Chi, Atraks-1)
I would also add more fights where the boss actively moves around the area. Meaning you still have to do some form of aiming to land shots. While also keeping an eye on where the boss is going. We need more fights like Rhulk.
the last one is the best idea, the relic one just sounds like d1 oryx in a sense even if it's supposed to be crota reference
I think it would be a cool idea for a boss where only 2-3 players can damage a boss at a time
Original Oryx used damage for stun whilst bombs damaged Oryx.
@@Ellyark I was thinking of a boss fight like that, say the boss sucks all the color out so you fight the boss in black and white. You do something then one person get there color back, and can start shooting the boss.
Basically instead of all 6 shooting the boss in a dps phase make it so only 1 person at a time is in the dps phase
13:14 one option to "nerf" divinity without nerfing is to have something like shiro chi where hitting divinity gives you lower damage the hitting the real crit
Yeah that sounds like a great idea i aint gonna lie. Reduced crit damage in exchange for an easier crit. It be a good way to nerf it
Make div a heavy trace rifle
@@sound4117 it does.
@@sound4117 As someone who doesn't play the game all too much and is more of a casual player, I do believe that Div needs some sort of nerf, big or small. For most raid encounters, if we have someone being the Div user, that takes a lot of the fun away from boss encounters as all you really have to do is look at a circle and shoot, but that is just my opinion. I feel like Div should still be considerably powerful, but not powerful enough to render most options of debuffing useless
thats just a mistake though because div wasnt around at forsaken release, i think best options as dad said are making something better that requires more skill but higher debuff or nerf div mag size
Would love to see voids weaken become much more prevalent in rebuffing instead of divinity, would make nightstalker and voidwalker shine more. Remember when tether was the best debuffing option on a boss and it was always used for that?
yeah but that's a super. weaken is way more accessible and should not be as powerful. as a supplement or better than nothing option? sure. but on its own it should not be an option for dps due it's ease of access. literally just toss a made and it's active with no exotic or build crafting whatsoever. no thanks.
@@Hal_142
“Just toss a nade. No build crafting.” My brother in christ Divinity removes even the need to change subclasses and tossing a grenade
@@wooloob6275 Shhhh, they don't like thinking. That's too hard. Much rather shoot big ball.
@@wooloob6275 it's an exotic. that's the difference. a subclass is mandatory. you cannot play the game without it. while an exotic is a choice. and you only get one of them. you also get a functionally infinite amount of grenades i.e. weaken. keyword of my previous comment being: accessibility. bonus word: balance.
Yeah I’m using voidwalker on taniks and someone tells me not to because all weakens cancel div. THAT. Is a problem.
I think the solution to this problem already exists in the game with certain bosses. Raise the crit multiplier of bosses to be higher than the div bubble, or in reverse lower the crit multiplier of the divinity bubble to be lower than actually shooting a bosses crit spot. Lower skill players and teams who need it still have the easy damage beam and for higher skill teams it becomes more efficient to hit your shots and cycle debuff cool downs.
the thing is: if i can still finish the boss by just shooting him in the divinity bubble, why should i make my life harder for me and aim for the critspot. i maybe do it for the first few runs with lower light level for the more dmg, but after the first week i will only go for the bubble.
and if they nerf the bubble so much that you cant finish the boss by only hitting the bubble, people will be unhappy.
there is no incentive to go for maximum dmg in d2, so people will do just the barely necessary things to finish the bosses. and whats barely necessary in d2 to finish bosses is a very low floor compared to other mmos like ff14 savage raiding. in those games you also have "casual" raids, but you wont be able to get the best gear by only doing that. in d2 you can get a normal drop which deals as much dmg as an adebt weapon. adebt weapons increae your dmg by 0%, just increases the ease of use. if you dont go for the BiS gear in FF14 you will make around 6-8% less dmg. so people go for that because they like to do more dmg.
1 fix would be to just block dmg perks on normal drops. with that you already greatly increase the incentive to get adept weapons. then you increase the hitpoints so much on master raids that spamming divinity is no longer enough dps to finish the encounters.
if you only do normal raids thats ok then and you can sitll use your divinity, but if you want the best gear possible you will have to learn the critspots etc..
if you cant do that because you dont have that much time to play d2 that fine. but why do you need to be able to get the best weapons if you dont have time to play the game ?
@@dontknowaboutthis7425 Because for people that don't find it as hard to hit the crit spot they are able to finish the fight in less damage phases. The same reason people stack damage buffs like well+font of might+debuff. For the majority of people it won't change anything, which is fine I don't think it needs to be nerfed for the majority of the playerbase BUT for the higher end players who can land shots and want to express their skill, they will have the ability to deal even more damage if they opt to use a different debuff and land crits instead of relying on div
Or and I'm just spittballing here......these (redacted) players could just decide on their own not to use Divinity at all during end game content...🤯
@@eugeneoisten9409 Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video lmao
@@eugeneoisten9409 hahaha heres one of those dads with 7 kids.
"also please find a hobby" lmfao
The "rich people problem" might have been a more apt analogy than i first thought.
New exotics ? Let's equip the perfect set of mods on this specific build around that one exotic that shits on the current legendary lost sector and blow through it in 3m time to run it a couple dozen times per hour. Boom, exotic acquired within a day. I can now trivialize an even wider variety of game scenarios with my gear.
You're a new player ? You don't have that old mod that's only available on rotation from Banshee ? Or you don't have the exotic that's a random drop and have no way to acquire specifically ? Tough luck. Not only do you suck at the game compared to the other guy, but your build is trash for that encounter. You'll have to learn, like a lil kid thrown on a heavyweight boxing ring. Oops, legendary lost sectors rotate, so you've only got a day every so often to learn it. Too bad.
Or you could run a couple hundred hours of strikes and hope to get lucky before you burn out. What fun.
Basically, the rich get richer in this game.
You want to know my lukewarm take ? Almost all the avenues to get exotics at a decent rate require champion mods. Arc singe and overloading champions ? On a season with overloading LMG mod ? Thunderlord that bitch.
What's that ? You don't have a single arc weapon compatible with overloading mod ? 33% damage penalty. You don't have any good LMG or bow at all ? Flat out impossible. They know it, they literally had to hand out thunderlord for free to everyone.
This mechanic makes the game trivial if you already have a hoard of stuff to pick from, but ball-bustingly hard for people with specific blind spots in their gear, with no in-between or reasonable way to fix it besides running braindead easy content for dozens of hours on repeat.
Casuals are not the ones complaining. Casuals are satisfied with the normal campaign and blue gear. The people complaining are the ones who got past that point and realize how they're stuck with either easy content with terrible RNG, or crazy hard content for their level for good RNG to catch up with everyone.
There's a gap between casuals and sweatlords that's just not addressed by the game. That gap keeps widening every expansion, every season, and sweatlords don't notice it because it was hardly noticeable when they started. Stuff was balanced around the available gear pool at the time, which was available to everyone. Now, the exotic loot pool is super diluted and some really strong mods are straight up unavailable.
Divinity is another good example. A weapon that trivializes raids, that requires raiding to acquire. People who are good enough to get it don't need it, and the people who need it can't get it. There's no bridge from casual to sweatlord without getting carried anymore. The gear game puts a giant difficulty spike in the way of mid-level players while trivializing everything for end-game players at the same time.
This is the best comment with the most reasoned take seeing the problem from everyone’s perspective.
Ultimately, it’s a Bungie problem because they haven’t yet learned how to balance their game for all of their players to have a place to be satisfied and be able to progress or challenge themselves.
This was by far the smartest and best written comment I’ve seen on this topic
A+ Great intro and conclusion, fantasic hook to captivate people to your essay and flawless body paragraphs!
The good thing is that Bungie is really improving accessibility this season. Even casual players now have a Riskrunner, Thunderlord and a top tier LFR and a set of armor that doesn’t take 99 enhancement cores to put mods on.
Chad opinion
new drinking game: take a shot every time Datto says “vitriol”
Currently In the ICU
Don't drink vitriol tho.
Ehh, i don't blame them, A) Vitriol is a good word for it, it does get pretty vile out here, B) it has a good ear feel. A lot more easy to stomach than "bile". I would have gone with "ichor", but again, good word.
They don't even know what that means anymore. Product of a feminized society. Can't have basic heated arguments. Admitting to hiding from comments ffs, while in this profession.
Just don't change it to: Take a shot every time Datto appears to be a nerdy, little, submissive bitch who couldn't tear his way out of a paper bag. People would be dead within ten minutes.
As a Dad of 4, one raid a year guy (maybe that precludes me), I'm cool with hard end game. I was kinda 50/50 until Datto brought up the coddling/not forcing people to get better issue. Pre Wife/Kids my D2 crew used to play WoW and I spent a ton of time failing/learning how to tank in BC and Lich King. Then Panda boi came out and turned my carefully honed rotations into 2 buttons. RUINED the game for me. Hard PvE gives the opportunity to fail and try again. The one issue though is the harder it gets, the less willing '50 clear guy' is to take someone like me through.
That whole coddling argument is kind of BS. What is hard is all relative. Some players feel the endgame is too hard as is, some think it's just right and even those who think it's too easy will heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be. I would bet $100 that Datto and Saltagreppo would heavily disagree on where the difficulty should be and would we argue one of them wants to be coddled?
@@mattf8779 W take, however I think we already know Tractor will just replace div if div gets nerfed so it doesnt really matter (including floating bosses like sanctified mind and oryx) I've tested on both and it is possible to keep tractor up for a strong debuff
@@tysonmartin6169 the thing is though that tractor was both widespread and downright not needed for heavy dps. I played a ton of last wish, scourge and levi runs and really the big must haves were nighthawks and tethers. Couldn't get those? All good we'll just two phase him. Nowadays you will need to have top of the line dps to meet those damagechecks with very difficult to access gear.
@@tysonmartin6169 For sure which is why if/when Div gets nerfed it won't be long after you will here tether, radiant, tractor cannon, well, bubble, banner shield, echo of undermining or the seasonal mod that debuffs are making this game "too easy" and how players that support keeping these things just want things "handed to them".
@@mattf8779 I think guns are overpowered, we should have to defeat the strongest enemies of humanity with only water pistols
Shouting into the void but my take: Keep the crit cage and remove the debuff entirely. I do think salt's take of making it _negate_ other debuffs is a step too far. But simply removing the debuff retains its identity, gives room for other debuffs (tractor cannon, tether, sundering glare, etc.) to exist, and brings it down a peg to make it more of a tradeoff. Without the debuff the calculation of whether sacrificing a player to use div is worth it becomes significantly more complicated rather than _always_ being worth it.
Yeah, Tether doesn't need to be more useless in end-game content. By removing the debuff or decreasing it, Quiver or even Shadowshot would shine more like it did it the past
I wouldn't mind it being a significantly smaller debuff it it stacked with all other ones too. Like the current debuff is 30% right now I think? If they made it 10% or even 5% but it stacked on top of the other forms I think that'd still be good.
my current take is that I think lowering it to 15-20% would be better ultimately (still overridden by tether but makes it statistically viable as 5x 20% is equivalent to the lost damage you get with a div user, and 15% makes it a sacrifice for crit ease of use), because buildcrafting is better when a subclass can work in tandem with weapons (respectfully, salt's take doesn't allow that).
I think a much smaller debuff would be alright, like 15% AT MOST, so that other debuffs actually take priority and aren't immediately overshadowed by a special weapon lmao
@@Hifuutorian no, you’re pushing it
At 6:39 when Datto started saying how far he came, it made me smile uncontrollably. I'm in a similar boat myself, though nowhere near as far along as Datto, but hearing how far Datto has come since 2016 is just super inspirational. Keep being awesome!
I think the one option I suggested on another video was a Sundering Glare-type proc but have it stack within itself (with diminishing returns, a cap, per-player, however it gets balanced). It'd still be skill-based, but it'd also help you support your teammates. Giving options to get that debuff would be nice
"Why don't you just not use it?"
Well, for the same reason I don't really want to cut my own leg off. Why would I actively handicap myself for no reason.
Then don't complain about something optional it's not even in the top 10 for energy weapons used in raids.
@@malygos9301 that’s because you don’t see a whole fireteam use Div, it’s literally one person only.
@@ophnix2510 and yet Trinity ghoul and tons of other shit exotics are used more. If it's require in every team there's 140k kings fall completions this week so 140k div users 1 for each team. Think that many people use Trinity ghoul🙄
actually some more difficulty options would be awesome. imagine if after your first clear of a raid your next explicit challenge was a completion without exotic weapons/armor. on the other end of the spectrum a ridiculously easy mode so entry level players could experience raid content as form of training. it shouldn’t be that hard to implement we already have an array of modifiers to alter difficulty
Imagine it gave the exact same loot. Good. Now you’re understanding sbmm in control.
That's just a different type of prestige mode from spire of stars and eater with the loadout lockout
@@tcritty2812 They never said it would give the exact same loot. I'd say if this did exist training mode with probably have Powerful Gear (Tear 1)? Whilst the harder mods would go to Pinnacle and nromal raid would be Powerful Gear (Tier 3)
@@saladpotet7872 Powerful, pinnacle, or world drop power, it's a raid weapon all the same lol. Upgrade modules exist
@@AlsoIMainYoshi well what about locking the weapons behind the harder modes. Ultimately that’s what people will be doing the raids for, and will have the most difference on a player’s experience.
Similar to what they do already, with some encounters only having certain drops. Before you try and tell me that armour makes the same amount of difference as weaponry…no, it doesn’t.
After watching this video, I am now missing D1 Raid DPS, no Divinity, everyone using Snipers
This remind me of drama related to Ultrakill:
The devs heavily nerfed a weapon because it went against the game's design philosophy. The change did not make it weaker, but less abusable and more punishing to use in certain situations.
So the immediate reaction was one crowd yelling "skill issue", and the other complaining that the game now felt too hard to them/ less fun.
Most of them were the same people that liked the game before this weapon was even released, and they now began review bombing the game.
This weapon in question is called the whiplash. It's a grappling hook that can either pull you to enemies, or enemies to you.
Since healing in Ultrakill is only possible via damaging enemies that are close to you, the whiplash removed the risk involved in healing. Low health? Just pull a small enemy (that is stunned during the hook) towards you and fully heal. It was no cooldown for easy heals.
The nerf changed nothing about the grappling hook itself, but made it so you could not regain lost health briefly after using it.
Meaning if you were doing well, nothing changed. If you keep getting hit, it no longer removed the risk healing involves.
This change basically fixed a problem in the combat flow.
it is an unlock you get halfway through the game, which is pretty tough. Players already were used to NOT having the weapon and shouldn't have grown to overly rely on it.
But the initial nerf was brutal, which is why the Devs reduced the amount you can heal instead of preventing healing at all.
The hate the Devs received was utterly repulsive and in no way justifyable.
Those changes? You can remove them in the pause menu by activating assist mode. The game was giving you all the tools you wanted to just have a fun time with it, or to improved if you wanted to get better at it.
All using assists does is put a blue border around your level score, and high scores are supposed to be a reward for players that have mastered the game.
The people complaining weren't actually complaining about the game demanding too much of them.
They were frothing out of their mouths because the game was no longer handing out gold trophies for free, and took it out on the developers.
The developers have been giving their all , and have been pretty open about development. But I guess that might change now with so many awful people having joined the community.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The games not as fun when something’s introduced that messes up the combat flow and the challenge of the game. It may be easier, but it’s not true to how Destiny 2 has always played.
Great explanation of what the Ultrakill Drama was!
Yea im so sick and tired of ppl like this man. These are the same ppl that think we as a society should be handing out participation trophies. If u don't win u don't deserve a fucking trophy. If u want that trophy and then get fucking good and prove u deserve it.
Thanks for sharing! I found this interesting and insightful.
The fact that the guy who described burning maul with sound effects during the forsaken vidoc was ran off Twitter due to death threats is really disgusting
I have 99 problems, and not being to see my forehead is one of them
Quality reference
I personally am on the fence about a Div nerf
I also think that a huge part of it is just how encounters are made anymore, moreso than the gun. It doesn't happen often, but Bungie does occasionally make scenarios in dungeons or raids where Divinity is not the way to go. So I think more diverse encounters would help for sure, but that may just be a bandaid fix as well.
Yeah personally I have not ran into an LFG that runs div on golgi and a few for daughters
the reason encounters are made like this is because of div not the other way around
@@ambercat7877 Exactly, Bungie purposely discourages Div, rather than just makes the boss really spongy (*cough cough* Warpriest)
i think val ca'uor will always be the hardest raid in terms of combat. i've never tried so hard in PvE in my life, maybe levi prestige comes close, but that was only cause of team execution issues. also i think this is LITERALLY your best video, well done
when did you do it? i did it in 2020 before it was sunset and it was nowhere near the agony of gahlran or the sanctified mind (all with lfgs though)
@@dankerbell val cour during double primary was THE HARDEST boss in destiny history and its not even close
@@NAPainter ^^ this, i felt compelled to use tractor cannon to clear waves and waves of adds just so i could have some room to breathe, a truly suffocating shitstorm of fuck. really (aside from like, underleveled nightfalls) it's the only time in the whole franchise where i've felt weak. those were good times (legitimately)
Double primary after whisper, xenophage etc came out val was a total joke. People don't wanna hear it but the community sucked ass at raids back then and I did prestige mode of that raid a whoooooooole lot I have the full ornament set and all.
Normal mode. Fuck prestige. RNG hell to get a good week
Saw a post on Twitter that was actually calm and an interesting suggestion about giving div a little nerf.
It retains the ability to both give the debuff and the crit spot, just… not at the same time. Change the weapon to have an alternate toggle (with a visual/buff indication of which one you’re on- that’s also important) to EITHER give a debuff or a crit spot- that way depending on the situation or boss, you can swap up the best way to use div. On a fight like oryx or golgoroth, where the crit spots are fairly easy to hit, you can use the debuff to great effect, but in fights like Taniks or Rhulk, hitting the crit spot is a lot more tough- so the bubble crit would be much more useful. That makes the fights a bit longer as you would have to go through more ammo and potentially more phases to kill the boss, but you can more easily hit shots. On the other hand, higher skill players could utilize the debuff to potentially kill the boss faster but at the cost of higher skill.
This is sick
I'd be perfectly fine with this. This is better than 95% of the hot takes thus far. This keeps the identity of the weapon and also gives it a better trade off.
I think a potentially good div change would be to shrink the bubble size. This would make it (very slightly) more skill based
16:20 my favorite standpoint, divinity should be one of many options
If Div gets nerfed I’d probably be fine with it, but my biggest problem I’ve had since D1 is that sometimes it feels like you’re *required* to run a certain exotic to beat endgame content(cough G-horn and dark drinker)
That’s why I love the caretaker encounter, your damage is literally capped so you have more options to damage and don’t have to 1 phase the boss, it feels like you have more freedom and fun
Exactly!! I'd be perfectly fine with a difficulty increase if it means I can use what I want to run. Being shoehorned into using lament, div, g-horn feels awful. I constantly get shit by my friends for not using lament in duality just because I desire to use something more enjoyable.
People actually have found out that you can two phase caretaker now. Just take it easy on the second plate, get him near the cap, then throw everything at him. I even saw lfgs that required you to know how to two phase caretaker.
Same. And I always hate when people chime in with the "you can beat everything without using this exotic" phrase but it just goes to show how little they must interact with the community. Try convincing an LFG team that they don't need to use optimal dps weapons or strats and you'll very quickly find yourself all alone in orbit. The reality of the situation doesn't matter, only the perception of the majority of the community. And a majority of the community deems it neccessary for most boss encounters.
If Bungie thinks Div is a problem with raid races, just disable it for the race... Not like they are unfamiliar with the concept.
In a “Real MMORPG” there is something called rotations which is specially important for raid boss instances. Each group of player a require a certain class type (Tank, Healer, Dps) to properly and skillfully do their rotation to keep the optimal damage. I think that is what Datto refers to when he mentions other debuffs that have to be timed correctly.
On both sides of the coin:
-casual players rarely even have Divinity because it takes a Raid which anyone barely even does anymore. And due to the LFG being far from optimal you can’t really expect someone who plays a couple of hours a week to NOT want such an easy to use option.
-Raids should require more skill. It is the endgame content that is the most attractive and rewarding. It SHOULD require not only mechanics but proper use of a subclass and ability to beat a raid encounter. But that SHOULD NOT happen until a proper LFG comes imo. It needs to define better what each person will do in a raid and which subclass.
Also, they could just increase crit multipliers in bosses to make Div suboptimal if you can hit your shots, like the Awoken bosses
That is literally what Salt was saying. Its a good idea. Casuals are just wrecking the game unfortunately.
Increasing crit multipliers would actually be a perfect way to handle it. Casual players wouldn't be upset because nothing would be nerfed and experienced players would now have the option to deal more dps without div. It would be a win win situation.
@@boneidle8420 casuals would rather have an unfinished recycled low tier content easy game instead of any sort of challange. I still remember when the destiny community was actually dedicated and defended the difficulty of the game.
the problem with that is that div would have to ALWAYS cover the crit spot of the boss. as if you apply div to a boss with a high crit multiplier it doesn't actually override the multiplier. div bubble has its own 1.3x multiplier. so if the bubble on kalli didn't cover her head you could still hit her head for 2x damage, bringing divs problem back to the forefront. I don't think forcing div bubble o cover the crit would be hard, but im just saying its something the devs should be wary of if they do decide to nerf it
@@alexandremachado2019 same, PvE is easier than ever and way easier than it should ever be. 40% damage resist through resilience alone, overpowered exotics, low difficulty content and yet the casuals still want it easier. Shame really, would be awesome to have some content that is just savage and an absolute slog to complete and get the "holy shit, we just did that" feeling. Never again most likely.
And now, shortly after Datto made this video, Bungie has announced a nerf for Divinity.
Your streak hasn't been broken Datto.
The reason Bungie is constantly 'making things easier' is because for the longest time barely a fraction of the playerbase touched endgame anything, making it incredibly difficult to justify expanding on that level of content. Instead, it constantly got cut back. We used to have Normal and Hard Mode raids with different mechanics, different armors, weapons etc. back in D1. But so few people did raids, much less Hard Mode, that it was impossible to justify continued support for it. Things being 'difficult' in the realm that high level players would like didn't force people to 'improve'. They just didn't touch the content at all. Meanwhile, since they've started making end game content easier and more accessible, player numbers for those activities have ballooned, and with it, Bungie has increased their support for them. Now we get new end game content every season instead of once a year. We can even see this in action for individual raids. Vow had much, much lower player numbers than DSC and VoG because it was made much more difficult to appease the high end of the hardcore crowd who thought DSC was 'too easy'. I'd argue that in this case, it's streamers and top tier players that are missing the forest for the trees. If Bungie followed through with what that crowd wants, and dramatically upped the difficulty in raids and dungeons and so on, all that would happen is that player numbers would crater, and then they'd either reverse course or simply cut back on the amount of content they make like before. I don't know about you, but I'd rather *not* go back to a single raid and maybe a dungeon a year.
All the streamers complaining about divinity always use it with well… I thought they wanted a challenge.
I can totally understand the whole Divinity debate, both sides. So maybe we can get a compromise, what if instead of nerfing it per se, they raise the skill required to proc the bubble, what if the Div player has to constantly hit the crit spots on the boss or enemy to make the bubble appear, and that hitting the bubble doesn't work to keep the effect going? That way the Div player doesn't have to think "Just shoot body then hit bubble" but instead "Keep the beam on the crit spot, everyone else hit the bubble", also making the beam-tapping a little bit harder but in the end rewarding for dedicated Div users. Also it can help shape future bosses with more movement or other gimmicks on damage phases (Warpriest, Rhulk, etc)
And with this rework, div is now useful to the skilled player or improves the players accuracy as they get used to managing consistent crits and everyone eventually doesn't feel hassled by div because now it's a weapon dependent on more accuracy and skill to the point where "the div bitch" or any div user can realise "wait a sec, I am hitting a hell of a lot of crits, I can do pretty good dps"
While I agree with this take. This probably helps datto's perspective on "The easiest shouldn't be the best option"
The whole drama is there because the gun became mandatory, in the hands of those who don't want to be forced to use it, this wouldn't change anything because they will hit the crit spot anyways and therefore bring it Everytime. The casual side will be annoyed they require more skill to use the gun, and the hardcore will still have to use it, so no one wins and everyone is mad.
It will need a total rework which is not gonna happen tbh.
@@MattBiersackSanders The rich get richer, essentially.
How about instead of hitting crits to proc bubble, you had to nail a rythm minigame like a variation of a perfect reload of some sort ? Or test some other skill than aim, so it would still be skilled, but allow people who suck at aiming to express their skill some other way ?
@Clockwork Man yeah exactly, especially Gladd who was complaining about "emblem handouts" when the DSC contest mode had easier light level requirements. In the end Gladd was wrong about the whole debacle, Contest Mode is a novelty that is starting to wear off for most of the casual playerbase as we had it for 4 raids now (DSC, VoG, Vow, KF). Most just check a bit on YT/Twitch to see the best strats and then do the raid on non-contest mode.
Unpopular opinion, make it a heavy. Or even more unpopular, make it the first weapon in the energy slot that uses heavy ammo.
Personally I think the game doesn't need to be harder so much as I think that the combat should be more complex. I really enjoyed Doom Eternal's weakpoint system, it's a brilliant way to increase difficultly without just giving shit a bigger health bar or forcing me to use a fucking scout rifle when it doesn't compliment my build. If individual enemy types had individual weaknesses (like how if you shoot one of these scorn flail dudes they explode, or if you shoot off a hobgablin's head it can't do the invincibility thing.) I think combat could be significantly more interesting instead of just click on the bad guys while crouched behind a rock.
I remember when Div was shown, I thought it was going to be a Heavy weapon because we already had an Arc Trace. As my teams only Div user (no one else has bothered even getting the quest), I enjoy the group play aspect. I feel like the support unit in the mmo party.
If Div is going to get a nerf, I would not want to touch the Cage. It's the identity of the weapon. I would suggest either reducing or removing the debuff to allow others to contribute or make it a heavy weapon. Let it take over the ease of the heavy weapon.
that or reduce its mag size and reserves like they did to anarchy
I agree, if they did a sandbox-wide debuff tune they could make Div have a good spot via tradeoffs. Balance its debuff strength versus its total uptime.
They did it with the charged with light versus well of tenacity, where charged with light has a lower damage resist buff but more uptime, and well of tenacity is the reverse.
@@Enforcer6k About Well of Tenacity... they might have just nerfed these into the ground because they use the same damage resist as Omnioculus and that got nuked
@@emperorcalus7288 Touching it's mag size and its reserves did nothing for another 3 months though when they specifically nerfed its damage.
Div caused boss health inflation, which made everything else not worth it.
Personally, I wouldn't mind them removing the debuff but keeping the crit bubble. Would make it easier for hitting crits without blowing every other debuff out of the water. Would also like them to address PvE flinch at some point as well, as it's been notoriously bad. Other than that, I could care less as I don't really run div or see it run all that often in my sessions.
Exactly. A big reason why the crit bubble is so good is because the slightest aoe damage will flinch the absolute fuck out of your aim. That or that annoying fucking thrall that bungie always loves to send to tickle you when you’re trying to focus on the boss target
Nerf whiners don't even wanna acknowledge things like flinch issues. Datto actually accidentally refuted one of Salts points. Salt wanted to make it harder, Datto says Bungo would scale down boss health... 😑
@@BlueFHS a teammate losing out on damage and losing an exotic slot just so we can crit bosses with already massive crit spots is a waste of an exotic slot. The only place that it would be useful I'm is Rhulk and that's it
@@squiggly4011 it’s not just the crit spot, it’s also the consistent damage buff you get from using it
@@bannedmann4469 what Datto meant by that is that because encounters are now balanced with the idea that Divinity will always be present, bosses are generally more mobile, or have significantly harder to hit crit spots, or have over inflated health pools because it’s designed with the fact that you’ll always be using div to debuff their health. You could argue this is healthy for the game because it can give us raid bosses like Rhulk which are more mobile and interesting to fight as opposed to a big target that sits still in damage phase. But you could also argue that if div was nerfed, Bungie wouldn’t balance the game AROUND it and using other things would be viable. It’s not so much a difficulty thing as much as it is a meta thing (why use anything else other than div)
So hear me out just give div two fire modes, one is debuff no bubble the other is crit bubble no debuff. By doing that you keep everything people like in the game as an option, force more choice on players and actually give void Titan a use when well exists since it could be providing the void grenades since bubble is useless at the moment. This seems an easy fix for a few issues where I struggle to see how people could really complain, you could still achieve everything div currently does you’d just have to select a few things to do it but it also is a direct nerf to the gun.
Cool idea
stolen from twitter
Yep I had the same idea, keep the big crit bubble but remove for lower skill players and vice versa for higher skill players.
This also only works if you still follow salts suggestion and make it so div debuff can’t be overriden. Otherwise you still get the bubble and just use tether.
or just... dont....
I loved your little intro story of your life, where you started and where you are now. I hope all you gamers find the same happiness.
W
I’d love to see them make div kinda like blistering necrosis from deep rock galactic. A weapon you use to create a small crit with a higher multiplier that you have to reapply every time you break it. I think it’s be interesting for the div user to have to apply div, swap to put in damage to their crit they made and swap back to div to keep reapply another one.
Edit: by “like blistering necrosis” I mean it should be pretty small to compensate
this sounds like more of a buff because the div person can now also do damage on the bubble
ROCK AND STONE
Maybe make it like that, but remove the swap aspect so the div user has to keep div out. Maybe even make it start out small, but sustained damage makes it bigger, so the tap firing strat becomes a trade off of skill.
Rock and Stone!
Did I hear a rock and stone?!
There was one good viewpoint that I saw a little while ago concerning the necessity of div, and that's PvE flinch. For some bosses like WP, who move around, lob shots, have a timer, and have adds, hitting these necessary critical is damn near impossible sometimes because of the massive amounts of flinch we are taking on a constant basis. I guarantee you, and boss that I can take as long as I need in order to kill it, I can without Divinity, but you throw that time limit on, and suddenly you have no ther option. You NEED that damage, you need ALL of it, and you need it NOW.
this gets brought up a lot and its not really the main issue with the gun is making crits easier, that functionality I think most people agree is what should stay. its doing that and the best debuff up for the whole damage phase and just being hands down the best option in many regards. I think everyone been targetting its crit multiplier or its dubuff in suggestions on how to fix it, my idea is drop the debuuff to like 15-20% and make it not proc perks that rely on crits, everything from 3rd/4th times the charms to whisper. Keeps most of its utility but there will be room for better options and you get rewarded for headshots still
Well maybe how Datto described that after nerfing Div they can “tune raid encounters without div” the sorta whole picture type part. Realizing how much precisions shots matter they’d most likely reduce the flinch of boss shots as too not make it unbearable, warpriest always used to move the difference is what feels like insane flinch compared to D1s. If flinch was tuned for PvE Scenarios then him moving is what would make that encounter semi-annoying but not unbearable; sure with flinch and him moving and Sister head bobbing right now it seems a little insane. But after a divinity nerf they’d be able to tune boss encounter more accurately which would include flinch and a variety of things.
I think this is a big D2 issue. The amount of damage it takes to stun a boss is purely ridiculous - one tether on D1 warpriest and spindle (D1 whisper of the worm) would stun lock him for the entire phase
@@MrFierygrave I totally understand the debuff being an issue, as it's the only one that has such massive strength overall. Tune that down to the pits of hell for all eternity. But the utility of divinity? The fact that i can actually proc that fourth times or triple tap or focused fire reliably? I think if we lost that, many entire raid encounters would have to be retuned to accept the fact that precision shots would simply be unreliable. If we want something that'll decrease its uptime, maybe just tone down it's ammo bags and make it a heavy?
Destiny has expanded its debuff selection with the 3.0’s (weaken, suppress,scorch, jolt, etc), which is great. Now it’s time to balance these. No one is trying to scorch Rhulk. I would love it if all debuffs were viable, and divinity weren’t objectively the best.
I mean you can't compare scorch and jolt to Void Weaken or divinity. They're not "debuffs" in the sense that they make targets take more damage.
Scotch and jolt aren’t debuffs that make the enemy take more damage lmao
Friend suggested to just reduce the crit multiplier on the bubble, and subsequently raise crit multiplier on the actual boss crit spot. You can then either go easy mode, or try and sweat it out for the big deeps.
I would suggest reducing the debuff value to 15-20% OR make other debuff sources more viable and comparable to div. Add more debuff sources.
Then you have the batshit crazy idea from Cross where the bubble moves around the boss which isnt even a bad idea imo. It would make it not brain disintegrating, shooting in one spot for like 45 seconds.
Salt suggested you only get bubble, with no ability to apply any other debuff. No.
I dont know, plenty of ways for bungo to figure this one out, or not "waste resources" and try and make new dungeon and raid bosses more mechanic dependent instead of just shoot funny vex laser make boss piss their pant.
In my opinion, in a world where weaker debuffs now exist (void weaken debuffs), it probably makes more sense that Divinity matches those (15%), and not the higher end of debuffs (Tether, Tractor Cannon). Other alternative would be that consistently hitting crits on an enemy with Divinity makes the spot show up and sustain (though, they would have to make sure the ball shows up in a different spot than where you're shooting to avoid overlapping, so, basically something like Taniks, and obviously not allow the perk to extend by shooting the ball yourself).
Then there wouldnt be a reason to use it you can just throw your nade and call it good, you would then just go for damage then at that point.... and also there would be 0 reasons to run those exotics anymore... just make bosses harder to benifit from div by moving them around or they could just make a boss whipe you if you crit them... but thats just not fun.... i think div is fine.. high end players find the game to easy cause they run it with a stacked team every time a new raid comes out id love to see them run lfg's but they "dont have time" for that.... but lfgs are like how 90% of the d2 comunity completes raids / end game.
@@Honed- people would still run it because of the bubble, it just means that for harder content like day 1 there becomes a skill gap where people can coordinate higher debuffs and hit there shots
@@Honed- currently there is no reason to run tether or tractor cannon. Div will still have a home even if it doesn't give 100% the best debuff and make crits super easy, bosses like Rhulk and War priest who move a lot or have difficult to hit crit spots will still appreciate a div. it just wont be mandatory for every encounter going forward forever. bungie doesn't need to create a health pool damage check like war priest. I don't consider myself a high end player, though not a causual either i guess since i play a lot when an expansion comes out. but LFG's are incredibly easy still, being abel to LFG and get 3 Oryx kills within 3 hours of reset is crazy easy. There is a middle ground though where Div isn't the best at everything while also allowing players to use it to get through difficult content
I want rebuff balance. Low debuff, medium debuffs, higher debuffs. Give divinity medium debuff.
Perhaps I'm thinking of the Bungie of old, and new Bungie is different, but the idea that they would go back and adjust boss health after nerfing Divinity seems vanishingly unlikely.
Disable Div for the next day one raid race just to spite saltagreppo
20 minutes, this man is about to have a certified rant (
Here's an idea: bungie should give Divinity the same treatment valve gave to the Equalizer. In tf2, there was a weapon that gave you both speed and damage boosts when on low HP, and because it was so OP, it was split into 2 weapons. One gave the speed boost, one gave the damage boost.
If they did this with div, we could have Divinity granting the debuff but not the bubble, and a new exotic (probably granted to all players with divinity) that grants the bubble but not the debuff. You can even give it a cool name that's an antonym of Divinity, like impiety or something. This way, teams can choose to use either one or the other, or both. Using both would actually reduce your team's total possible damage (assuming both weapons deal relatively negligible damage), since 4*1.4 = 5.6, which is less than just 6*1. It's still a powerful option, but requires heavier investment to get the full bonus, and will be less universally useful with certain encounters not benefitting as much, for example encounters where more players have a job other than dps, like warpriest, where you'd be sacrificing a lot of damage using both while players are off hunting knights.
That's actually a really smart idea
the problem with that is that the bubble is the main concern so everyone would just use the bubble exotic and we'd have this convo all over again
@@lancebriarwood503 nah you could solve that easy by making the bubble smaller and making it change locations every time the div or exotic user has to reload the bubble relocates
Or you could have divinity itself cycle like hard light between debuffing or the crit bubble
"Sacrilege" is the antonym you are looking for, I think.
Divinity should be the crit component, Sacrilege should be the debuf component
Datto is so fucking funny lmao. Never gonna stop loving this guy.
You think someone like Datto is funny? I haven't found the dude funny for years now. He's just some tryhard little nerd who likes to complain about stuff that most normal people don't mind.
@@mriguy7989 yet you watch every video
@@c0n2oo3 no, but nice try.
Nerfing Div would just be a temporary fix to the larger problem of power creep.
most "worst on the team" are in no way able to complete garden div run, the boss doesn't work more than half the time.
I agree completely; though, I think with a nerf to div and yknow not having the big blue bubble to shoot, a reduction in flinch would also be very nice as flinch is absolutely ridiculous in pve imo
Yeah if they nerf it they need to undo the balancing they did around the gun. And the flinch in PvE needs a definite tone down. Just look at Warpriest when he is shooting you.
Yup, Nerf div and buff flinch resistance. I would take that any day.
YES. PvE flinch is utter bullshit with anything that requires actual aim, to the point that if it weren't for Divinity giving you a massive target to hit, most precision weapons would be rendered completely useless in an instant for almost every boss fight where precision weapons are the best choice. Not to mention Whisper, which is already powercrept and nerfed into borderline uselessness, which would suffer even more than most, because literally all of its damage advantage is supposed to come from continuous, rapid precision hits.
@@griffinfaulkner3514 you could argue the current flinch is to counter div usage.
@@thepeps101 No, it's the other way around: Divinity makes the flinch not a problem, so crazy high flinch increases people's want to use divinity. Not using divinity makes the flinch more painful because the flinch will make you whiff shots. It doesn't really matter how good you are, the flinch in pve will rip your aim into orbit at some point if the boss does any kind of shooting at you while you're shooting at them.
"2022 Datto has a wife and a life, and this takes priority over being a cynical jackass."
😎👍
Very bold of you to assume I only have 99 problems
Problem is not div, It's boss fight design. The fact that we're still grouping in a circle as 6 to do damage after 8 years of Destiny is wild. Encounters like Rhulk and Caretaker address the Well of Radiance issue. Encounters like Shuro Chi, Crypt Security, and Atraks tackle Div. It's not impossible for Bungie to design encounters that are fun, yet don't feel like the purpose was to dodge Divinity. They've improved it over time too (evidence being that most of those examples are from the 2 most recent brand new raids).
Yup.
i'd love to see what % of the playerbase has this gun and is willing to use it it's mostly to me just higher end skill players that ask for div and even then no one WANTS to use it
It really is just the higher end of players wanting it nerfed, lol
I have Div and have had it since Shadowkeep - and personally, I love using it. Feeling useful for me team as the debuffer.
holding a laser doing minimal boss and not needing to aim is a really boring task, hence why people don't want to do it. higher end players know what are the best things in the game and that's why they enforce divinity. they have played any activity dozens of times and they know how long an activity should last. why would you honestly want to spend 3h on atheon when you could spend 13 minutes? it sucks to be dragged down because you decided to help some people who are bad at the game, you get punished for helping others
i'd literally never lfg again if div got a big enough of nerf, some of those guys... they're crazy... double primaries... sweet business for boss damage... then again, not even div could save that (but it would help)
I like using div, I'm not too good at hitting crits or buildcrafting yet so it gives me the opportunity to contribute to my team in a way that really helps everyone. Plus it's a fun little gun.
@@dankerbell For those of us who LFG, Div is literally a saver tbh.
as somebody who's currently getting into raiding, Div is extremely valuable, but not necessary in most cases. generally if you bring a taipan and well, you'll do fine for damage. most wipes are from people just not hitting shots, or doing something wrong. Div makes DPS checks negligible for the most part.
Just finished my first garden of salvation run with five buddies who also never had done it. We all got divinity, and after losing six hours of all of our lives...... hoping it's not getting nerfed soon lol
i personally think div should work like this, have it build its buff from 15% to its max buff over the use of the gun it also holds its peak buff for short duration until trigger is held again to maintain buff, this then making it still up there but not killing it and making it vault exotic number 1284, this also eliminates the tap the trigger method thus another slight nerf, this overall should open them to make OTHER options please i want options and builds and stuff to do that result in the same reward
The funny part about your meme ending half way through the video is that I do actually watch Gotham Chess so I actually thought it was my recommended lmao
In a perfect world, perhaps a good change to div would be an increase to its base damage ***slightly*** and simply giving the crit spot. Cuz i do miss tethers being.... you know.... useful, outside of mobius quiver for burst.
In reality, i prefer the big tether, but div existing eliminates the need.
Additionally, i still dont have div, despite having functionally the final step to the quest, because no one wants to run garden and i am, in fact, too casual (read: dont have the time to play often enough) to gather up a team to suffer through garden. Because, for some reason, it is the most despised raid since spire of the stars.
Personally, I like Divinity. I think it’s a cool exotic that allows players to have a supportive role, sacrificing their own damage to buff the team, which there isn’t a lot of in Destiny. It’s also a great accessibility weapon that can enable players with physical disabilities or low skilled players to participate in Raids and feel like they contributed (whether it be USING Div to help the team or being able to hit more shots thanks to it). Prior to watching this video, I was in the crowd that saw all this debate as rich people problems and nothing more. Waahh I beat contest mode world’s first raids three times but the game is too easyyy, make it harder for me Bungooo. And to an extent, I can understand the perspective of people saying how Salt, being a massive “tryhard” who plays the game for a living, can’t know what’s best for the community as a whole. However, I’m trying to look at this more obectively. Do I think Div needs a nerf? Maybe, but it shouldn’t be so severe it knocks the gun out of the meta completely (like Anarchy), or strips away its core identity. I see three potential solutions to this:
1. The Crit Multiplier: make more encounters like Shuro Chi, which have a base higher crit multiplier than Div, making Div a dps loss, but still usable if people want the ease of use. This would make Div not optimal in future encounters while staying the same in some current ones.
2. The Tap Firing: Since Div can be tap fired to conserve ammo while still fully maintaining the crit bubble effect, it can lead to it having a much higher uptime than I think is intended. Maybe make it so that the second that the gun stops making contact with a target, the effect disappears, so that you have to hold down the trigger for it to work. This would keep the crit bubble and debuff intact, but it would reduce its uptime in dps phases and make it less forgiving on mobile targets.
3. The Debuff: perhaps the most notorious part about Div is the massive debuff it applies on targets. This is one of the highest in the game (even higher than stuff like tether), cannot stack with other debuffs, making them irrelevant, and has significantly higher uptime than other debuffs in the game. This could be solved by either removing the debuff or making it significantly lower (around 5-10% maybe), BUT allowing it to stack with other debuffs like tether, weaken, etc. This would encourage the use of other debuffs in a dps phase as opposed to trivializing them cuz div is better.
Let me know what y’all think about these solutions, and which one seems the most viable. And keep things civil please!
I like that you're looking at the gun from a design perspective, and while most folks have assessed that the debuff is the biggest hurdle to overcome in Div's usefulness/dominance ratio, I don't think anyone has taken into account the Tap Firing angle.
My opinions:
1) I've seen this come up a lot, and I think many don't understand that this creates undue pressure on future game development to have bosses with increased precision modifiers, but with similarly large health pools. It exacerbates the arms race between player damage and boss health.
2) I like this idea a lot, even if I don't think it will solve the issue fully. Moreover, I'm willing to bet that the flexibility that the Div Bubble has that allows it to be tap fired is there as a product of the bubble having a "ramp up" and "ramp down" effect. Its not an instant shut down if the player is flinched off target, or if the boss dodges away (like Warpriest). I think it would be an interesting and valuable change if the ramping on both ends was shortened significantly so that "tap firing" would be considerably harder, but not at the expense of the occasional miss against a boss.
3) I agree with this one. Its the "Div gives a better crit, or better debuff, not both" solution that I most support. Having its debuff be smaller but stackable is ideal, but I'm personally okay with it not having a debuff at all.
datto putting the desktop video end screen 🤝 me watching on a playstation
Salt is so bored of winning World First, now he wants the hate of the community as a modifier while doing it.
Literally the start of his Gladd arc, let's see how it pays off lmfao.
I really think getting rid of the debuff and keeping the crit spot is fine. It allows people to not worry about hitting shots but still means you have to rotate debuffs properly
Or just make the debuff something smaller like 15%
agreed, it makes teams decide if it would be better to put an actual debuff on him like tether etc and hit the normal crits. The 35 percent is way too much
I think the complaint is against the crit bubble and not the debuff. People are complaining about the lack of skill by "aiming for crit spot" and landing shots.
I dont really get it though tbh. If you want a game to feel harder then play a single player game not a online pve based game where not everyone has the same playtime or skill level.
@@generalyousef6202 with 15% buff it will make no use :) math is there for reason, try it.
And then people just run Tether Hunter, and nothing changes. Almost as if this is an entirely uses discussion, meant for content whores like Datto to whine that the game they play 12 hours a day, with other people who play 12 hours a day is "too easy".
“Met with absolute negativity, and hatred, and vitriol,” Datto says as he says someone told him to go outside.
The problem is the amount of flinch recieved in a Pve based game and the fact that many bosses now have erratic movment making hard to aim. Rhulk, atheon, warpriest.
WP and rhulk walking around while simultaneously damaging/flinching the everliving fuck out of you has to be the most unnecessarily annoying thing EVER
@CZN yeah literally in d1 it was never an issue due to how easy some bosses were to stun locking
Ok, but is this video Wholesome Datto talking or elitist Datto?
what this game needs is diversification, instead of buffing and nerfing specific kind of weapons, make all weapons viable for dps so people can use different strats and not focusing on what is meta...
Here’s an idea : make it kinda like Ager’s Scepter where there is 2 modes : 1 where it simply adds the crit bubble but with NO debuff, and 2 the charged mode where the gun applies the crit bubble and the debuff BUT it drains your super (also make the debuff 40% because it will last less long)
That is probably the best idea I've heard. Makes the gun actually interesting to use and might for people to choose between a Well/Bubble or the huge debuff. And it would mean that keeping the debuff up the whole time would require some planning, like stacking orbs in the dps area or running energy converter and stacking charged with light.
Please no, I’m tired of accidentally using my super on a reload because D2 decided I held it down.
@@braedanbaird8851 Uhhh, change your button then?
This is actually a good idea. And once your super bar is out, it goes back to the first firing mode. Good idea man
People please listen, there are people who think sweet business is a good form of boss damage. I know div is in every road group in every raid but it’s necessary, I’ve ran with groups where we NEEDED all four phases of a raid bosses damage windows even with div. I’ve meet people who think the best way to use lament is to spam it’s uppercut. ITS UPPERCUT. I get that Div is the most overused exotic right now but some people, frankly, suck SO BAD that div is a necessity. Especially when I still, STILL run into people doing VoG and are using Destiny 1 info on how to do it.
those players should not be able to raid lmao
This is because they designed the boss health around people having div. If they didn't have to design around this weapon, boss health would be lower. Please watch the video. he literally says this.
@@Malluc you missed part of my point but okay
I like how Datto has been getting more unhinged by the year. I’d fuck with it sure, it’s informative and funny.
Imagine if every raid boss was as hard as the final GOS encounter with no div.
No cap. Bosses like sisters, rhulk, Sanctified Mind and Warpriest either have so much flinch you can’t hit them or their crit spot/movement makes it too hard to reliably hit them. Div isn’t the problem
I can barely shoot the sisters with anything besides a rocket flinching my character back halfway or the warpriest just moving around to where you can’t shoot him. Who thought these were good ideas lol. Also atheon’s crit spot doesn’t exist
Come on bro there’s no way. Just shoot the white stomach lol
datto claping back at Aztecross
All i will say: A single gun should not make an an entire subclass obsolete and worthless.
Gotta blame Bungie kinda for making Div feel mandatory.
I mean,look at Warpriest. A bulletsponge boss running around like a headless chicken that attacks you and makes you flinch(why is flinch even a thing in PvE?). LFGs will struggle without Div. Atraks on the other hand was a nice way of making Div useless by allowing players to do good damage with swords or supers.
You're severely overstating div. Sure div makes it easy but lfg we do enough damage fine without div. Even with div I still aim for the head.
Nerf div then it'll just never be used again and people with go to the next best thing
I'd increase the crit multiplier on the bosses and make divinity ~80-90% of that (or whatever current multiplier is). That way you reap the rewards of hitting shots but still get a fair bit of benefit from divinity
Div is not mandatory, its just so good that you have no reason to not use it unless you dont want to
I highly doubt anyone will read this, but I might as well say it. I think it would be fun if the game was harder, but I don't personally think that nerfing div is how I would do it. I would be perfectly fine with taking more damage and having to focus more on survivability, but me and my friends usually aren't fantastic at dps and divinity can really help us with that. It's disheartening to be able to do raid mechanics almost perfectly and still end up losing because we just didn't do enough damage. Divinity can really help with our damage issues, and I'd rather the game make us play better in other aspects instead of just dealing more damage. It would be nice if they reduced health, but Divinity is still a nice option for my group when we can't do enough dps. Maybe I'm crazy or maybe I just need to get good, but that's my personal opinion.
I think the biggest takeaway from this video was the point of "It's in the game, therefore Bungie has to design around players using it." Very much tied into power creep, and if Divinity was nerfed into the ground, bosses could be rescaled. Warpriest on day one was a super hard 4 phase and, dare I say, impossible without the use of 1-2 people with Aeon's. Even Oryx was very healthy as well.
The community at large complains when warranted nerfs arrive because it destroys the "power fantasy". The integrity of the game is of no interest to the majority of players. I believe we spoke about this years ago - people like us avoided the no ads glitch in leviathan because it destroyed the integrity of the raid, making it not fun. However, we weren't the norm. Same goes for riven, or net limiting in garden. It's why I've lost interest in the game. Lightfall will be the first expansion I'm not buying. I miss Y1(pre whisper) when we were weak. Power fantasy has ruined the game for me.
They won't do all that, that's the point. Ammo has been a serious issue for ages.
@@ynybody1382
I mean two different things
1 is a weapon that the game designed around
2 is a glitch that literally breaks the encounter
Also I ask do you really think you are willing to do Legendary Campaign 3 times in a row and feel the same experience every time
Can be said for a lot of things too. Add density has been ramped up but it seems like everything can blow up mobs of adds now or you can just camp the door.
So people who don’t use one of the 47 weapons, perks or abilities to deal with mobs of adds think it’s too difficult. The other people use Trinity Ghoul w/ catalyst (just for one example) and shoot the ground to wipe out the whole room.
Massive divide between the people who think the game is easy and the other people that don’t want to get better or just want to be able to use a blue weapon in the raids like they’re a streamer or something.
@@unknownredacted3513 Two things can be different and have similarities. In this case, the similarity is destruction of game integrity.
Also, I have nearly 30 days of prestige leviathan played. I'm willing to replay content ad infinum if the content is good. Divinity makes content bad, which is I have quit destiny along with most of my friends.
This really says how elitist the top % of the community is and now I see why people don’t stick around very often 😂
The only thing I would say is that the div quest is one of the more lengthy ones. It would be a shame to see it cast into the abyss of our vaults never to be used again. It is also the only trace rifle that has any utility in the game.
If you know what you're doing, the pre raid portion takes 15 minutes, and the raid takes half an hour with a competent team.
@@ynybody1382 Div runs practically never go that smoothly though.
@@ynybody1382 Another out of touch opinion. If this and this and this happen, it's super easy. That could be said about damn near everything.
The quest is fine it’s not that hard if you truly want a hard quest check outbreak prime d1 version that was a nightmare
@@ynybody1382 dude, such a tiny tiny tiny percent of the player base has completed GoS, and even less have divinity. This is so out of touch. Lots of players have to put in so much effort to get divinity.
I think it's because a nerf to divinity is an improvement for top level players because they get have more variety and challenge but for low level players its a whole new level of difficulty. To use the jeff bezos analogy imagine he does something and gets fined $10,000 yeah that's nothing and at most a minor inconvenience where as for the average person a $10,000 fine is crazy and outrageous and very much changes the way they do things. It affects the lower skilled player more and so it feels like salt in the wound for someone who can't regularly get into a raid with a solid team.
Absolutely agree. I understand that top players are bored but it also does make the game a lot more fun and accessible for lower skilled players.
Here’s an idea for the top level players if they want a challenge:DONT USE THE FUCKING GUN! Why should all of us be punished because some elite players think things are too easy with it, that’s so fucked up.
@@abigaileileen3161 I think the main issue is that since D2 released, the exotic loot pool diluted a lot and a bunch of really strong mods are just unavailable outside of rare shop rotations.
The only way to get the exotic we want like we used to is legendary lost sectors, but because of champions, if you don't have a weapon that supports that season's mods and matches shields/burns, you're just screwed.
Basically, mid-level players can't bridge the loot gap with sweatlords without running strikes for a couple hundred hours. They wish they had challenging things to play to their level, but there's nothing between "braindead easy" and "have that weapon or die" difficulty. Any activity that rewards exotics at a decent rate is built around players have all of the gear at all times, and it makes it too hard for people who just don't. To keep it accessible to them, they have to make it easier, but the sweatlords are already bored so they can't.
They need to bridge the two. Get rid of champions and increase difficulty some other way that doesn't hinge on people just following a guide on what to build and hoping they have everything in their shopping list already in their vault.
@@Darkness-dv6sz it isn't a punishment unless you're bad at the game. I'm no elitist by any means (I only get to play 3 nights a week at most) games should cater to ALL players not just the "biggest voice" which in this case the casuals have the voice above all since they are the majority. straight up tellin another player that is better than you that they can't have a voice since you're a "sweat" and be honest the majority of you are like this. I don't believe that EVERYTHIN a sweat says should be followed because it has been proven time and time again that, that kills a game, but makin the game so easy that its straight up BORIN is a game killer too. We NEED an in-between and Div bein a "solve all" isn't an in-between. Plus, where is the accomplishment if it's all easy cuz one person is holdin the trigger.
@@DarkAngelMaximus Casuals don’t have the biggest voice in the community, the streamers and TH-camrs do. I can count so many instances where the big name players give a suggestion and Bungie does it. Most people don’t care if things are boring, they want to get a raid done and the loot for it, Div is an easy way to get it done. If you care so much about a raid being too easy or you want more challenge, make posts that ban Div, it’s such a stupid simple solution where the people that need Div to get loot win, and the people who don’t want to use Div can just…not. I bet you that without Div most people wouldn’t have gotten past Warpriest on Day 1
also I love being the person doing Div, that’s less chances of me screwing up something during DPS phase.
While I personally think the gun does to much and agree with you on this take, I feel one solution could be to disable it in content that has challenger mode active. That would allow those that want/like the gun to still use it while for those who are actively trying something like worlds first has a more interesting/challenging experience.
Bingo
Disable for day 1 world 1st races.
And build encounters not worried about it because it will be disabled. Then Salt & other world first racers can find other solutions (that’s what he says he wants) and after race is over IF it trivializes the fights…. Who cares.
Only jssue is they make day 1 bosses too hard. You realise last wish if whisper of the worm was nerfed how it is now Noone would've been able to day 1 last wish. Bungie needs to work on either making weapons do more dps. Div isn't the issue. It's the weapon damage. I know div can make things easier but I don't want to have another dead exotic in the game.
To launch a comment into the void, I agree completely with your take. Honestly the fact it's a 30% debuff is wild, I know at the time it likely made sense since 30% was the only debuff in the game, but now that we got void 3.0 and 15% debuffs, I feel toning it down to that would make infinitely more sense. That combined with another thought I had of making Penance Proc more so it did a bit more damage itself in all other forms of content I think would be just, really nice, an make it not *entirely* needed if you had a skilled team with other more powerful debuffs.
But, as you say, we'll see if anything like this happens. If it doesn't, still gonna play the game, and still gonna sit there in my raid group half the time and be like 'alright, who wants to div?' and hear crickets until someone finally says 'alright I'll do it fine' xD. Would really love to go back to the days were that wasn't needed and tether hunters actually functioned as a subclass, but, hay. Until that day, div.
The biggest problem here is that people overestimate how many people even have divinity to begin with. Low-skilled players (and even most average players) don’t have it as they don’t do raids unless carried (and carrying someone through the divinity quest is a hard mode challenge in and of itself).
I don’t know if there are stats that we can look up, but I’m willing to bet that less than 20% of the playerbase even has divinity. Should we really accept that Bungie creates the (end) game that over 80% can’t play, as it’s too difficult without certain weapons or too frustrating as these weapons are basically required to complete any boss encounter, especially raids and hard mode dungeons?
How about Bungie just ignores this 10% of the playerbase, that has everything anyway and is capable of destroying anything in its path anyway. You’re not changing the outcome of 1st completions of any hard content by giving bosses 30% more health. The winners are always people from within that 10% bracket. And instead, make it so the literal 90% can have fun in the hard content by removing gear requirements and having it be dependent on skill and communication alone...
I think for me the big thing that I like about Div is breaking up DPS team comp (you have a dedicated debuffer role instead of just 6 DPSers) and added accessibility (larger crit hitbox - especially helpful due to buggy and small crit spots on some bosses). But I worry that a pure nerf to its debuffing factor will lower its utility to the point that it will never be used.
Not to mention that outside of Divinity, we simply don't have any good or satisfying debuffs. Deadfall tether, the next most useful debuff, is like... six? Seconds, I think. It might be nine, but even if we tone down the boss health to compensate then... well I agree we have the problem of the whole team just being very homogenized. I like the support role.