Why Oklahoma has SO MANY Toll Roads | What Makes a Toll Road Useful
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มี.ค. 2024
- On this video we explore some of the reasons behind the many toll roads in the US State of Oklahoma as well as what makes a toll road actually useful.
Interstate 185 Video:
• I-185 - America's Most...
Cities Explored: www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mi...
Follow on Instagram: / mileagemike
Travel Channel: / mileagemiketravels
I drove the Indian Nation Turnpike 25 years ago. Back then, the Turnpike Authority apparently bid out all the rest stops in the system on one contract, and every rest stop had to have a McDonalds. The one outside Hugo, which could only be reached by getting on the toll road, had to be the lowest grossing McDonalds ever. I was there at lunchtime on a Friday and was the only customer. I met 4 oncoming cars between Hugo and McAlester.
I used to visit those McDonalds fairly frequently as a kid. My family was somehow never the only family meeting people there to hand off a kid. Either between divorced parents or grandparents taking the kid for a week. Even as a kid I thought it was weird that you’d just see other kids with suitcases getting in different cars and no one ever checked to make sure everything was like….good. 😂
The Mcdonalds in Vinita, on the Toll road is much nicer now. I think The one on the Indian Nations at Dustin may be closed.
The Indian Nation itself is in poor shape. Nowhere near Interstate quality.
@@drtee51 Evidently you haven't driven on I-40 then gotten onto the Indian Nation Turnpike lately. The turnpike is MUCH better than the interstate! Plus the speed limit is 80 MPH...
@@SevargMT No I haven't. Thanks for the perspective.
Something to keep in mind on the Indian Nation Trpk, that is an almost direct route from Tinker Airforce Base in OKC to the Red River Army Depot just west of Texarkana AR. I’m a truck driver and I’ve hauled several loads to and from these bases. Before anybody says that Army and Air Force are 2 different branches, there is a program called Army & Air Force Exchange Service, AAFES for short. They do alot of things in conjunction with each other.
This reminds me of an old Mad Magazine cartoon. A guy pulls up to a tollgate and says "Officer, I happen to know that tolls have paid for this road many times over!" The tolltaker replies, "I know, now you're paying for the maintenance of these tollgates."
As a person who used to work in state finance, I can tell you right now that no road has been or will ever be fully funded by toll roads AND taxes on drivers. The building and maintenance of roads is so expensive that extra money has to be raised via sales taxes, municipal bonds, and Federal improvement programs (ie handouts). Hawaii currently has the highest road taxes (taxes collectively levied against drivers) at about 85% of the cost of roads, while places like Alabama, Texas, and the southern coastal states have somewhere between 40 to 60% of their roads covered by drivers.
That's BS
I wish there was some way you could contact me mileage Mike. I have some information that I have gathered in Texas with your information. Maybe we could both go to Congress and kick their tails.
Toll-lahoma. You hit the nail right on the head, Mike
I live in Tyler Texas, and I used to work in Kansas City. So while your video makes the Indian nation turnpike look useless, it actually saves me a lot of time in getting across Oklahoma. I've probably driven the INT hundreds of times and it literally is the quickest way to go to get to Kansas from Tyler.
It's also a key portion of the best routes from Tulsa to Beaumont and Lake Charles, and not too bad of an alternative route to Houston if you really, really want to avoid Dallas.
You have that 2 lane tollway that goes around Tyler that should be free I’ve been on that.
@@davidschumann9182 You sir are right! Loop 49 in Tyler is a great idea, but making it a toll road was absolutely dumb!
I bet you and the two other people who use it regularly appreciate it a great deal!
INT is also the best way to get from OKC and that area to Texarkana, southern Arkansas or northern Louisiana. I’ve used it several times now, it’s impressive how much time it cuts off certain journeys.
Another outstanding report. I allways thought that that the toll roads in Kansas and Oklahoma over the interstate right of way was only able to exist because they were grandfathered in Pre-Interatate roadways. I don't mind pay to play roadways if they offer benifits, however what OK is doing is not so. It's truley egregious and discusting.
The Pennsylvania Turnpike system is the same way. Until recent construction to widen parts of the main line of the turnpike, lots of new spurs were built south of Pittsburgh to 'encourage regional development,' but this allows the PaTPC to keep charging tolls on a road that should have been paid off years ago. As long as you keep building new roads or making improvements, you can charge tolls on ALL segments of the PA Turnpike.
There was litigation where some PA Turnpike Toll Revenue got diverted to SEPTA to fund Philadelphia's Transit System. The Courts ruled it as a tax.
Gas and automobile property/licensing taxes only pay about 60% of the cost of roads and bridges. The other 40% comes out of mostly sales taxes, federal income taxes, and municipal bonds. Even if you don't own a car, you're still paying about $3500 per year on automobiles infrastructure.
So a toll makes a lot of sense from a usage viewpoint. And it probably makes a lot of sense to have about a $7 per gallon tax; it'd just almost but not quite cover the cost of roads and bridges.
In my opinion, cars and their infrastructure are just really expensive, and their true cost is somewhat shielded by huge subsidies, but after a while it's like pumping water uphill. Sooner or later, that huge cost comes due one way or another and the further we keep using cars then the more painful the outcome until we can switch to something cheaper.
@@stevenpugsley2542 put this to the main comment section I smell another video.
Nice spelling...
I live in the OKC area. The amount of toll roads in the entire state is just absurd. I understand having a toll road here and there (many states have that). But, there shouldn’t be a need for 4 turnpikes around Tulsa (Turner, Will Rogers, Muskogee, Creek), for example. For those saying “you should see Texas, Illinois, New York, etc,” keep in mind, those states are WAY bigger than Oklahoma. They not only have way more people driving on their roads, but they have quite a bit more roads to manage (so more toll roads in those kinds of places might be more understandable). I think this whole issue with toll roads in Oklahoma is just OTA being greedy, and literally no one is questioning them and their practices.
Read "The Power Broker" by Robert Caro. You'll understand EVERYTHING.
It's because there's a strong financial incentive to build roads but not to maintain them. A lot of the poorer states are heavily dependent upon Federal highway grants. The 1956 Federal Highway act provides 90% of the funding while the state and local government provides 10%. For some states such as Alabama's 108/126 exchange (which costs $400,000,000 dollars but only serves 120 families ie 3.3 million dollars per household), such boondoggles provide huge financial gains to local and state governments.
Toll roads are slightly different but they also get huge amounts of Federal Funding. Texas, for instance, managed to divert nearly 90% of their alternative transportation to road widening. Basically, every state DOT's answer is to build more roads and widen existing roads using Federal grants. I don't think DOT's will sleep soundly until their states are covered with roads and parking lots.
why would the state subsidize something that is not used by a lot of people?
@@mosaloquendo Eisenhower thought the highway system would support military logistics if we were invaded by a traditional army.
JUST THIS LAST WEEK The Kilpatrick turnpike will become I-344 and the Kickapoo Turnpike will be I-335....both still maintaining toll status..... (OKC metro area)
Also beyond glad to see a video focused on my home state! Great video!
Good to know.
Why is it 335 if it connects 40 to 44?
@@user-cu3xd5vo9d I asked myself the same question, but I guess because it runs north-south….only logical thing other than 335 made OKC sound bigger cause it’s another auxiliary interstate lol…
Originally, it was planned for whole thing to become I240 loop, but I think access Oklahoma has the idea of extending the Kickapoo to I-35 near Purcell, perhaps that’s why they’ve gone with I-335?
@@user-cu3xd5vo9d The 40-44 segment is the first phase, an expansion to I-35 south of Norman has already been approved.
There will be several of auxiliary routes throughout Oklahoma, and they are: I-144 (Gilcrease Turnpike) in Tulsa Oklahoma, I-335 (Kickapoo Turnpike) east of Oklahoma City, and I-344 (Fitzpatrick Turnpike) as of western loop of Oklahoma City are added for the newest interstate toll roads.
Thanks for the lesson Mike. I never knew this about Oklahoma.
I-335 and I-344 are coming to Oklahoma City.
Texas gained a lot of toll roads while Perry was Gov. I will drive out of my way to avoid toll roads here in Texas. To add insult to it all, the state continues to have trouble with the revenue program that bills the drivers for the toll fees.
Insult? Ain't nothing more capitalist than charging for a road you're using.
@@isocarboxazid or charging for roads that your taxes were supposed to pay for.
@@isocarboxazidThere would be nothing wrong with tolls if there wasn't already a fuel tax, which is notably *not* capitalist.
@@yankeedude252 You seem to know nothing about costs.
@@brianjonker510 I'm a business owner, try again.
Thank you for doing a video on this! We appreciate it so much when we see others actually paying attention to what is happening with the tollroads in our state. We (Oklahoman's for Responsible Transportation / aka Pike Off OTA) are working hard over here trying to correct our state laws that allow the OTA to continue racking up debt in our state at the cost of our citizens. We are a non-profit made up of hard working citizen advocates who volunteer our time to trying to make the state's transportation better for tomorrow. Many of us are victims of the Access Oklahoma program where it is currently estimated that over 500-600 homes will be lost to the East-West Connector and Southern Extension of the Access program. (Numbers based on aerial photos of the initial route which the OTA claimed was the lowest number of homes affected.)
As to the video, the reason the turnpikes can continue to build unprofitable roads, even though the law says it must be economical, is because in 1954 just a couple years after the OTA was created they convinced voters (some may say tricked or lied to voters) to pass cross pledging. This allows them to say that the turnpike system as a whole is what must be economical, not just a single route. So they use the money from the profitable turnpikes (Turner & HE Bailey) and use them to pay for the non-profitable ones like the Kickapoo, Indian Nations, and Ada turnpikes. Then when money starts getting tight they start a new one to reissue bonds.
The Access Oklahoma plan's E-W Connector was added to the enabling act for the turnpike in 1987... not to age myself too much but I was just a little kid back then. Part of the agreement with the E-W Connector (and the entire "Outer Loops") where that they were to be built under one bond. §69-1705 paragraph (f)
This set the case for the Pike Off OTA lawsuit. The case was heard in the OK Supreme court where the majority opinion essentially stated that this is how we have always done it so we will just ignore that statement shortly after the same court "mysteriously" reversed their own decision on another case against the OTA. That case was an Open Meetings Act case won in summary judgement by Attorney Stan Ward. The judge ruled they blatantly violated the law. When Stan filed a Qui Tam lawsuit against them and the contractors to return the money spent to the state, the OK Supreme Court reversed their decision on the Open Meetings Act case and then ruled that the bonds were valid. The two cases set a precedence in Oklahoma law that allows for very vague agenda items for Open Meetings and that the OTA can build anywhere in the state so long as they connect it to another turnpike.
Another thing about following the money... the OTA continually buys more land than needed and sells excess lands to sub division contractors who get the property taken using the eminent domain (or threat there of) at a cheaper price then having to buy it directly from the owner. They in turn, then build subdivisions and rental properties. Once those are built they start promoting turnpikes again to help take more homes and farms from the citizens of our state to build more pointless turnpikes. Our studies have shown that the OTA continually pays sub market values to people whose land they condemn. Estimates have been close to $100k less on average. One developer who tried to work with the OTA on one of his properties recently posted that he was offered half its value a $3 million dollar difference.
Then Oklahoma tax payers are on the hook either way as money from our gas tax can be used by the OTA when their funds fall short. ODOT and OTA continue to neglect maintenance on turnpikes and the freeways while they push for new roads. Oklahoma is #1 in toll road miles per capita and will be #1 in miles flat out if Access Oklahoma continues. As to whether any will be paid off, not until we get some legislators and a governor with the courage to tell them no more. If we are ever successful in paying off a tollroad and return it to the state, then the state would be able to get federal money to help maintain it, but until then Oklahomans (and our visitors) will continue to foot the bill.
Anyone can read more at pikeoffota.com and see a few of the stories at stopthetollok.com (though I have not had time to do any new videos on that site due to lack of time.). Thanks again for doing such a great job on the video. Please continue to spread the word.
Wow this was really in-depth. I feel lucky to live in NJ where a toll road is for crossing a bridge or tunnel or traveling far, fast. And most tolls here can be easily avoided albeit at the expense of time and sometimes not even that. In fact there are times i toggle the toll roads off on my GPS only to find that the free road is less than 3 minutes slower and sometimes more fuel efficient
US 36 between Denver and Boulder was originally a toll highway. The bonds were retired in 1967 and it became a free highway, but locals still call it the Denver-Boulder Turnpike.
That's right. Originially they weren't going to build it because they said it would never pay off. Then they paid the bonds off 10 years or so early. It cost a quarter back then to drive the whole route. Way less than any of the Colorado toll roads cost now!
And now the damned thing is even MORE EXPENSIVE to the taxpayers thanks ever was before! There really NEVER is anything known as a "free" highway; EVERYONE, regardless of vehicle ownership or not, MUST pay heavily into the support of these "Hitler strips"....
Yeah but now so many people use that road I know because I live and work in Boulder
A "free" highway?! Ain't no such thing; they ALL cost sup'm....
If each and every centimeter of the interstate stuperhighways were toll highways, the country wouldn't be wasting more than $800 billion dollars annually....
I love watching all your great videos. I will put on one of your shows and listen to my other bloggers. Also I you take me to places I doubt I'll ever see. Thanks again.
Mike, I really love your videos as a fellow road geek. Keep up the great work.
Great video, love your content Mileage Mike. Good stuff, keep it coming!
I feel the same way as well about Tolls. I live in New Jersey near McGuire Airforce Base. I often go to Cabela's across the Delaware Memorial Bridge and I just take I-295 to get there. Still have to pay the toll for the bridge but save a lot of money since you don't have to pay a toll at all coming back unless you take the New Jersey Turnpike. I go to Tennessee multiple times a year and plan on going through there to go to Talladega Superspeedway in Alabama for the Nascar and World of Outlaws Late Models races. With the heavy tolling between Washington D.C and the Delaware Memorial Bridge I just go the Pennsylvania Turnpike to Carlisle and jump onto I-81 all the way down to Tennessee where I usually stay at a friend's house. This time I keep on going onto I-40, I-75, I-24, and I-59 because they're all toll free and only 10 minutes slower.
The only Toll roads I use are the Pennsylvania Turnpike to get to I 81 to go to Tennessee since it's $45 there and back for cars. $80 with my camper I'm bringing to Talladega. The other one is Delaware State 1 to go to my Mom's. She lives in Virginia North of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is between that and would cost $17 with Route 1 and the Bridge combined.
There is no MN toll road
I live in Ocean County so I don't take the NJ Turnpike often, but I'd rather use it than 295. If it was a daily commute I'd absolutely feel differently.
@@reh303 The Garden State Parkway (GSP) used to be a toll road.
@@kennypalermo9071 It still is.
I enjoy these type of road video. Thanks!
i sometimes read maps for fun or just to pass time or to improve knowledge and i did notice a lot of toll roads in Oklahoma, wondering why. thanks for explaining.
For Toronto, the reason why the 407 is used is for people who don't want to sit in 401 traffic. The 401 is pretty busy, but soon the Highway 413 can be useful if you're heading west to north or north to west and don't want to sit in the traffic of the 401.
Thank you for this video! This is very interesting!
Moved to southern Oklahoma from Indiana in 2017. No toll roads in my area, but I of course run into them when I travel much of anywhere.... especially Tulsa.
I'd VERY much like to see the US-69 corridor upgraded as an extension of I-45... getting thru Muskogee is a real pain! But, I'd be less fond of the idea if it's going to be toll.
Love your videos, Mike. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, will do!
The only thing I a Oklahoman like about the tolls are the speed limit is 80 and everyone goes ten mph over that so we do get around the state very quickly 😂
They really should be 100MPH
@@vanology3606That's usually where I am...
Every time I go down the Turner people are doing like 100
@@ProwlXV it's getting a up grade to three lanes that should be a Missy slower drive for the next two or three years .
@@justbe4481 I am aware. It is not a drive I do often but I am excited for it to be 3 lanes instead of 2.
Toll roads will work great to reduce congestion in large urban areas during rush hour.
that was one of your best I've seen.💯
Hey, just wanted to say hello, and mention how much I enjoyed this video. Your narration is quite pleasant to listen to with cleaning and housework too! Watching real people is more enjoyable than anything AI generated. All the best from Austin!
I-45 was planned to terminate at I-44 in Tulsa. But Oklahoma refused. So it terminated in Dallas instead. But Texas went ahead and made 75 north to Oklahoma built to interstate standards. As soon as you cross the red river into Oklahoma the road goes to shit 😅
From what I heard
They're thinking about actually getting i45 up to Tulsa
But it'll be a toll rd
When coming from Dallas Plano US 75 is very congested well past McKinney now maybe to Sherman Denison now Texoma is quickly becoming a suburb of Dallas now it’s growing fast I haven’t been up past Sherman up there does it finally go over Choctaw Casino out there. That traffic was bad to at that light I remember that construction 3-4 years ago.
You’re so right about the Boston -> Worcester, US-20 & MA-9 go directly from one another but so painful. Adds on milage too ofc but I’m a fan of route 2 westbound out to Leominster then 190 south to Worcester for the scenery
Great vid Mike! I’ve done I-44, from MO to Wichita Falls, TX, the Muskogee Turnpike, and two months ago I drove the Indian Nations Turnpike from Hugo to McAllister, mostly cause I-49 isn’t built from Shreveport to Fort Smith. Yeah, was devoid of traffic! Best news, PikePass and Florida’s SunPass are accepted in both states now; no more ATM stops for cash-only OK tolls!
They're talking about possibly starting to accept ezpass here soon
That toll road to McAlester is really nice.
@@lancehammons5918that would mean my KTAG will start working on the EZPass network... I like the sound of that
There are no more toll booths. Either have some type of pikepass or toll tag that Oklahoma recognizes or the amount they'll charge you by mail would make the fuel usage for not using the turnpike cheaper
Thanks so much Mike. Wonderful!!!!
1. Oklahoma started early, and the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes were successes. They were cheap to build due to low costs of acquiring land, no real mountains, and no big bodies of water to bridge. Oklahoma City and Tulsa are the two largest cities, so two lanes in both directions were enough to meet the needs of traffic.The toll segments were not built in the cities themselves, so that allowed well-separated interchanges.
2. Oklahoma's turnpikes are rural, and they have been built in anticipation of population growth. Oklahoma City and Tulsa have extensive freeway systems in the cities. Oklahoma has only three significant rural freeways: I-35 and I-40 crossing in Oklahma City, and the spotty US 69 between Durant and Muskogee. This is the opposite of Texas and Florida, whose freeways are the norm in rural areas and tollways are in metro areas (even if Tyler in Texas). (If I had my way as a transportation planner, I would build freeways in rural areas and slap heavy tolls on urban expressways so that middle-class people would consider using buses and keeping vehicle traffic light in cities. That's the opposite of what Oklahoma has done).
California has done something like that with toll express lanes.
Huh
1. I agree that the toll roads here work well, but think they're ripe for another lane in each direction. ODOT seems to agree, as that's been gradually happening between Tulsa and Oklahoma City.
2. The idea of adequate public transit is a good one, but in the vastness that is Oklahoma City, it is one that's been consistently rejected, probably because of the expense. What has a better chance of occurring is a transition to toll roads in the metro area without any of the revenue being used to support an expansion of public transit. I would include US 412 in your list, and call it spotty as well.
Your first point doesn’t really address the video. Your second point was in part already addressed (population growth-where?!), then your idea of heavy fees and busses ignores reality. How often do YOU take mass transit, by the way, and does your area already have well-developed mass transit?
@@djsdjsjdjshjwbdnskdk I live in a rural area.
The 407 ETR in the Toronto area is insanely expensive route and even more so for tractor trailers.
thanks for this Michael
Great report! I've always wondered about why we have so many toll roads. Now to answer some of the questions you asked about a couple of the roads to nowhere:
I have gone between Tulsa and Witchita numerous times, but I think most of the traffic on the Cimarron turnpike gets you close to Stillwater and the surrounding area.
The Indian Nation turnpike seems like a road to nowhere, but you have to partially travel on it on your way to Dallas from Tulsa.
As an Oklahoma resident, I can attest to the accuracy of this content. Allegedly, the toll costs were supposed to go to the "maintenance and repair" of our turnpike system. Anyone who has traveled the H.E. Bailey or Kilpatrick turnpike can undoubtedly tell that the turnpike system is extremely loud and bumpy. Thank you for the great content
I learned a lot Mike, thanks for the Info. Newest Subscriber! See you on the next one Mike.
Thanks for the sub!
I will say the Indian Nation Turnpike makes driving through Oklahoma’s tough terrain. Most of the traffic comes from McAlester from the US69-75 Junction. US 75 takes you to Durant, Sherman, and Dallas directly from Tulsa.
There’s a ton of tourist traffic that comes from Broken Bow/Hocahtown and using that turnpikes beats taking smaller roads.
It’d be interesting to see how much that highway gets built IF the Kickapoo Turnpike extension is built.
Indian nation is great on the Dallas Tulsa route, but that's mostly because 75, which should be the obvious best route, is so horribly underdeveloped that not only is Indian Nation faster, but going through OKC is also faster.
Something to add to the discussion... US 412 is slated to become an interstate from I-35 to I-49 in NW Arkansas.
They have announced I-42 as future interstate along US-412 in both Arkansas and Oklahoma. We will have (2) of I-42, and the other one is in North Carolina. Why not be either I-46, I-48, or I-52 instead of I-42.
Bugs Bunny would just burrow to Oklahoma, and end up somewhere in Canada after a wrong turn at Albuquerque.
Foil, Arms and Hog are still at the Tulsa airport arguing with Fuct Car Rental.
I 'new I shoulda taken 'dat left türn at Albequerque!
I take one of either two routes to get from STL to DFW: I-44 West to I-49 South, then I-40 West to US Hwy 69/75. Toll Free til I arrive in DFW. Or, the other way: I-44 West to US Hwy 69/75 at Big Cabin. Just a small portion of Toll I-44, between Joplin & Big Cabin. My return trips to STL are via I-30/US Hwy 67/I-55. I like alittle variety on my trips. Different scenery.
That new-ish I-49 is great. It just reeks of taxpayer money though, lol. I am not sure of the I-55/I-555 yet ... some of it is so new that there are no services in the area. I think I prefer the I-49 route.
Clever!
I go to STL from Lubbock, Texas a few times a year and I just take 44 from Wichita Falls all the way in to Kingshighway and I take the same way back. I hate the tolls but I hate driving 14+ hours even more.
Like I just made this trip and got back to Lubbock about 12 hours before posting this comment.
Left STL at 830 AM and made it to LBK at 1030pm. Of course I stop on the way to fuel and eat but I have to run a consistent 85 just to make it in 14 hours 😂😂 shit sucks.
Very interesting - thanks!
Great video. Are you ever going to do the nation's oldest and, now, most expensive toll road in the country? The PA Turnpike. Lots to cover, Mike, with the winding road out of Bedford, the Harrisburg area over the Susquehanna River, Revolutionary War towns of York and Lancaster, and of course the juncture with the NJ Turnpike. As you can tell, Mike, I'm a big fan of your work. Showing us your self while talking is a plus. Thanks.
And of course the old way I 95 used to not have a ramp onto the turnpike to go into Jersey. I found that out the hard way 20 years ago as I travelled up I 95 went around Trenton and then all of a sudden I was heading back towards Philly south on I 295…that new ramp in Bucks County finally made I 95 continuous
loving the new camera
Great vid!
You should talk about the original Pennsylvania Turnpike. This is the highway that led to the current interstate highway system and was the very first superhighway as well as toll road in the country.
Definitely on the list
As well as today the most expensive toll road in the country.
Connecticut's Merritt Parkway was the first toll superhighway to open.
@@mayavenuemisfit814 My cousins came up to New Jersey from Tennessee and had to pay $90 to get from Washington D.C. to the Delaware Memorial Bridge. I only pay $44 to take the Pennsylvania Turnpike to I-81 in Carlisle. I used to camp in Fredericksburg and it cost $150 between D.C. and the Delaware Memorial Bridge. The Pennsylvania Turnpike would cost $75 to get to Carlisle.
@@tomasmowery164In ALL actuality, the highway network that led to the stuperhighways we suffer with today were a NAZI GERMAN product, btw....
From what I had heard, the Chickasaw turnpike was more due to keeping support in the Oklahoma Legislature, part of it never finishing the connection to I-35 and Ada was it's political backers losing their positions. While OTA may have business leanings, it basically tends to have the same executive as ODOT, and builds projects ODOT would if it either had the funds or could borrow to the same level. Even the last couple expansion waves get announced with geographic distribution that seem politically motivated, in similar to how ODOT seems to will often phase projects so is consistently doing projects all around the state, even when doing more focus in some areas might save money on major projects or have larger impact.
The Chickasaw Turnpike is the remnants of a plan to bribe rural state legislators to approve roads that were actually useful by offering them a bypass around OKC between I-35 and I-40 while also connecting Ada to the Interstate system.
Oklahoma does not "distribute" toll roads in the northwestern quadrant of the state. Population obviously thins out rapidly to the northwest of greater OKC.
There’s more to the Chickasaw Turnpike story. In the late 1980s, OTA announced a plan to build the Kilpatrick and Creek urban turnpikes in OKC and Tulsa. Rural legislators still dominated the OK legislature and wanted a pike to run from Sulphur to Ada and Henrietta, and passed a bill prohibiting the urban pikes from being built unless the Chickasaw turnpike was included in the package. The sitting governor, Henry Bellmon, thought the Chickasaw would be a money-loser (which it was and is), and so ordered OTA to build it as a two lane road. OTA didn’t want to build it, and has tried to sell it to ODOT, but they didn’t have the money. As with so many other government building projects, politics always interferes.
Real spill Mike ❤❤❤
Let’s hold off on the next couple of toll roads and build a train instead.
Amtrak's Heartland Flyer already exists. It connects OKC to Fort Worth with stops at several towns along I-35. It receives some state funding.
@@colormedubious4747However, what is really needed is a nationwide HSR system.
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x Sure, but that will cost tens of trillions of dollars (at least) and we're already more than $31 trillion in the hole atm. Let's try beefing up frequency on what we already have, first, and maybe it'll be easier to convince people to support increasing investments in intercity rail.
@@colormedubious4747 yeah, one train per day....and no connection to Tulsa.
@@get_emld It's amazing that they have a connection to Fort Worth.
In October 23 I was driving around the Chicago area from Ohio, about a month later i received a Toll road Bill from Illinois.
Great video.
Great job Mike. If you can do more videos about Austin and California, that would be great!
Anyone who says I-35 is the preferable route through Austin has never driven I-35 through Austin lol
I tried the Cimarron Turnpike from Stillwater Tulsa, to get to Springfield, Mo, vs the state route, what time I saved was lost trying to navigate all the interchanges in Tulsa.
The good thing is they have Oklahoma Highway Patrols dedicated to the turnpikes to try to catch you speeding so they can add your ticket to the state coffers. They even have their own club house at McAlester. And, it seems the tolls go up about every year lately.
PA, FL also have many toll roads. In PA I once avoided toll I-76 by driving on nearby US 30.
Excellent video. I grew up in Tulsa in the 1950’s and am still waiting for the free roads that were promised.
Nope, more toll roads.
I go out of my way to avoid the toll roads here in OK as much as possible. OTA is corrupt and needs to go. When a toll road is paid off, it should become free, not continued to be tolled to subsidize more unused toll roads. The cycle will never end
Kentucky has a state law -- and they, believe it or not, enforce it -- that says toll roads must cease toll collection when the bonds for construction are paid off. While Kentucky was building its parkways from the mid-50's to the mid-70's, Kentucky hasn't had any toll roads at all since November of 2006. If Kentucky can do that, why can't Oklahoma?
I drove the Indian Nation Turnpike to get to Paris last year. Wouldn’t do it again, but don’t regret it. It was actually a gorgeous drive
Thank you for pronouncing Worcester correctly!!
Thanks for the video. There's only 2 instances of tolls being removed that I know of, both being in British Columbia. One is the Coquihalla Highway, the other is the Port Mann bridge. The reason the Coquihalla worked well is it was built as a bypass to the Fraser and Thompson Canyon route where twinning the old road would be virtually impossible, and it cut travel time by 2 hours. The Pennsylvania Turnpike was one of the first controlled access divided highways (it and the QEW in Ontario are thought to be the first 2 in the Western Hemisphere) and is still tolled to this day. Although the promise has been that once the highway is paid for, it will become free is usually a farce, and except for BC, to my knowledge it's never happened in North America.
There are actually 2 states here in the US that had toll roads at one time but don't anymore, and for different reasons.
Connecticut had toll roads from 1938 to 1988. But in 1983, a truck driver fell asleep behind the wheel on the Connecticut Turnpike, and crashed into a car stopped at a tollbooth carrying a family on vacation from out of state. That accident killed the truck driver, that entire family, and two tollboth workers. 2 years later, the state ordered all tolls removed on the Connecticut Turnpike, followed by orders to remove tolls on the state's other two toll roads in 1988, on the Merritt Parkway and the Wilbur Cross Parkway.
Kentucky, OTOH, has a state law ordering that toll collection cease when the bonds for the toll roads are paid off. From 1955 to 1975, Kentucky built a series of parkways that charged tolls. But that law first kicked in when the Kentucky Turnpike (I-65) was paid off in 1976. Since that time, tolls have disappeared on its other parkways one by one, until November of 2006, when Kentucky's last two toll roads were paid off. As a result, Kentucky has not had any toll roads at all since that time.
The section of I30 from Ft Worth to Dallas was toll and its bonds were paid off and it quit being a toll road in 1978.
0:52 I have to go off topic amd share a story this bit about Oklahoma being "Southern" reminded me of. In the army, just got to Sill. Some guy from Northeast said this and all of us from the South and the few guys native to Oklahoma got up and told him as one that Oklahoma is not the South.
Mike, as a part time resident, soon to be full time resident, of OK. the beautiful thing is that there is ALWAYS an alternative to the toll roads. In OKC, I always take the surface streets and ignore the Kilpatrick and Kickapoo Turnpikes. Going to Tulsa, I plan my trip to give me enough time to take US 66 instead of the Turner
Aussie here. Paris, Texas is one place I have heard of in that region due to one of the movie greats: Paris, Texas (1984)
I've had a Pike Pass in Oklahoma for years and really only good thing is it works on many other state toll roads.
11:31 Shoutout to Tullahoma, TN!
Stillwater has one of the largest colleges in the state, that turnpike is packed during football season and every Friday/Monday. Ponca City further down that road is a huge oil town.
What a coincidence that you upload this video now haha. Just last week I drove these toll roads from Tulsa to OKC, and paid cash at their toll both. Being a California , living in San Diego, for my ENTIRE life still living in California, these toll roads are nuts! We have open freeways non tolled from ALL major cities , LA - LV, LA - SD, LA - SF , SF - Sac etc. what’s the deal
My son just drove some of these stupid toll roads because he had to go to OKC for the first time. He is young and unfamiliar with cash toll booths, and accidentally went through two toll tag lanes ... oops! In his world, he had only seen the pay-by-plate kind, and it really confused him.
About the 407 Toronto bypass - It MIGHT be a quicker way to bypass Toronto if you're going from points farther west to farther east of Toronto, say from Detroit to Montreal, if and only if the traffic on the more direct 401 is slow - like if there's a major accident or something. Luckily, there are many other 400 highways that connect to both so if a section of 401 is slow, you can take the 407 for that particular section, but yes, 407 is expensive!!
Mike is a stud change my mind
I think you forgot Will Rogers Turnpike overlapping I-44 from Tulsa to Joplin.
Coming down from Des Moines, this is actually the faster route to Dallas (and the eastern DFW suburbs) than just taking 35 the whole way.
I did find it weird that when we exit at US-69 to head south, they actually give you a since I guess you pay for a certain distance when you first cross into Oklahoma?
I'm from Oklahoma. I expect any day for someone to put a toll box on my porch before I'm allowed to walk to my driveway.
I live north of okc. The Kilpatrick turnpike has transformed north and northwest okc. It caused a boom in housing, jobs, and retail. It also provides a short cut from i 35 to i 40 on the Westside of the city to avoid going through the main part of town especially for teuckers.
Its been extended from i 40 south to Tuttle/ Newcastle and H. E . Bailey turnpike going to Lawton and ft sill. It can save as much as an hour driving time or more. While I agree with some talking points turnpikes in Oklahoma can't be compared to Boston because of the size of each state and distance from here to there. Oklahoma also has free roads. In either case the turnpike systems are optional. Biggest winners are truckers and businessman that can ger to places faster because the route is short and has higher speed limit.
I suspect most of the traffic on the Indian Nation Turnpike is travelers between Dallas and Tulsa taking that segment from McAlester to Henryetta.
Chicago I80, I want my toll fees back plus a new wheel alignment on my truck. HORRIBLE stretch of roads.
Back around 2004, I went to Niagara Falls, Canada. Traveled from Massachusetts across New York. The tolls were not cheap, but I will say at that time New York’s tolls road were like glass smooth and some of the cleanest rest/service islands.
Cool seeing you pass thru Sapulpa via 44 and the Gilcrease. That was just built in 2021. The OTA is corrupt.
Thanks!
Appreciate it!
Cool to see you cover this topic. I've lived on and off in Tulsa since 2008 but you missed an opportunity to cover the political history around the later toll expansions. OK is a strange critter of a state; rural legislators have outsize political heft, like many states, but that's also exacerbated here by the cities voting more conservative than their density should correlate with, and the state having two large population centers splitting the urban needs instead of one matters also (think MSP and MN, or ORD and IL).
The most egregious rural turnpike routings are the result of urban-rural compromises that had to be hammered out in the 1980s-90s to get needed urban bypass and ring road turnpikes through at all. I couldn't quote scripture and verse of the authority mechanism at you but the legislature has significant control over what gets built even if OTA is nominally independent.
Sure enough, the albatross rural turnpikes have been money losers. OTA has tried to hand parts of them over to ODOT over the years.
PS as a pikepass frequent flyer (again, i live in Tulsa), i feel like Oklahoma's reliance on toll roads is a happy historical accident. Road users should pay for roads.
The Turner Turnpike bonds were paid for 25 years ago. The collected tolls are now used to pay for the other toll roads in the state which will never be paid off.
He does have a face! Love the channel Mike!
I-44 is a major trucker's route, there are a lot of trucks on I-44 in MO and OK
Great video, Mike. I agree that the Turnpike system in Oklahoma seems self-perpetuating, because each next generation of political leaders will prefer to bill the direct users of the turnpikes rather than the general public thru gasoline and other taxes. However, I will say that I'm a person that finds the Indian Nation Turnpike very helpful. I've lived in East Texas for 42 years, but my family remains in Kansas City, and the turnpike means my 13-hour drive from Nacogdoches, TX to KC involves only 1 hour of 2-lane roads. (US 259, TX 135, US 271, Indian Nation, US 69, I-44 (Will Rogers Turnpike), and finally I-49 or US 69). The Indian Nation provides the most direct access from Tulsa to both Dallas and Houston. And I notice there is a noticeable difference in road quality on Oklahoma's turnpikes (good) in comparison to US highways (poor) in the state. Oklahoma's non-turnpikes have to substantially deteriorate before the ODOT spends money to rehab and repair. I thought it was the colder winters compared to Texas, but Kansas and Missouri roads seem to get rehabbed and repaired long before Oklahoma's roads. Travel on US 69 inevitably involves a long bone-crunching stretch somewhere in Oklahoma.
I live in the Tulsa area and I just wanted to say that the map at the 9:18 timestamp has portions of highways incorrectly shown as toll roads. The portion of I-44 near Catoosa before it heads northeast to Joplin is not a toll road. Also, part of I-44 near Oakhurst is not a toll road either.
Actually the Indian Nation turnpike was geared towards the trucking industry. As a truck driver I had to take this route quite a bit to get to Tulsa from TexASS.
There is a lot of industry in East Texas that goes to the Tulsa and Kansas City Joplin etc. for some reason the company sponsored routing always took me up that damn Indian turnpike 7:28
This makes me appreciate Kentucky since I believe they're the only state that got rid of all of its toll roads.
And yet those sections are still well maintained and some of the smoothest roads .....proof that a continuous toll isn't needed to maintain a good road.....
That would be a good episode for him to do -- where the tolls actually got removed!
Connecticut too. We had tolls on quite a few roads and bridges, but they were removed back in the 80’s. It’s actually funny to see how we’re the only state on the eastern seaboard to not have tolls
there's a toll on the bridge to Indiana on I-65, don't know who's side it is but is only toll I see going from alabama to michigan. I avoid it by taking us-31 at the cost of maybe 5-10 minutes
There was a fiery gruesome pileup at a Connecticut toll barrier in the mid eighties. That was apparently why the turnpike in that state was decommissioned.
It’s mind boggling having toll roads that go from nowhere to nowhere. We don’t have toll roads in Michigan (aside from border crossings into Canada and a few bridges), but is being discussed as a way to raise revenue for our crumbling roads and bridges. Nobody wants more gas taxes. Michigan applies the state sales tax to gasoline but that doesn’t go towards roads but goes towards education and other public programs. In my opinion, any taxes paid at the pump should be dedicated towards roads. Other ideas being floated here are mileage based fees and increases to car registrations. I think limited tolling would be viable here.
Driving through Oklahoma years ago during a long drive I made the real mistake of taking the Kirkpatrick Turnpike as it went North of OKC. Every two miles another toll! The last toll I was out of change so, it was 2 am, I ran the toll. WOW! Bells, alarms, flashing red lights, all kinds of stuff. You would have thought I robbed a bank! I thought for sure they would come after me but nobody did.
I went on the Indian Nation Turnpike a couple of years ago from OKC to Georgia. Not the ideal route, but considering it was snowing in Arkansas and Memphis, it did its job by keeping me away from snow driving and away from the mayhem known as Dallas drivers.
(and another note: I’m pretty convinced that all of the tolls on this road go to keeping other roads in good shape…)
Was on the Kickapoo turn pike this afternoon. It is quite literally a toll road to nowhere
It links I-40 and I-44 to Tulsa and bypassing OKC
also in florida
I live in Tulsa and have been here most of my life. I admit the toll roads are typically better maintained, but there are so many it has become a huge burden. Moreover, they are always working on it. Traveling from Tulsa to St. Louis is very interesting - because I make that trip quite a bit because of my St. Louis Cardinals fandom. I can only think of one time in which I made that trip and there was no construction going on within Oklahoma. Ironically, Missouri started using a newer type of pavement in the late 1990s that is far more durable than what the Oklahoma Turnpikes use. Also, the Interstates and state highways in Missouri seem to have less maintenance going on - without tolls. Also, I recently took a trip to OKC last December, and it was the first time in ages when no construction was going on.
Indian national does have a purpose of being useful
Lot of trucks going towards Texarkana from okc, Wichita, and Tulsa
Cimarron and Chickasaw have there use as a shortcut between Wichita and nw Arkansas
Muskogee and Cimarron are a good shortcut from Memphis and little Rock to points west or vise versa
Outside of 75 in some spots, the highways and roads over all the last few times I’ve been there felt quiet.
Get into Tulsa or another big population area and that’s different, but outside those quite, pretty quiet.
I head to OKC through Tulsa at least a couple of times a year. Where I get confused is exiting and re-entering the toll road... where and when and how to pay. Resolution... got the pass, pay as you go, keep 25/30 bucks a year on it and, otherwise don't worry about it.
I would like to use my Pikepass less.... Two turnpikes you did not mention in this video are about to join the Interstate Highway system as The Kilpatrick Turnpike becomes Interstate 344 and the Kickapoo Turnpike becomes Intersate 335... of course both of them will remain Toll Roads.
A small point you may not be aware of: the Indian Nations Turnpike is what it is because of that huge military base just south of McAlester: the Army Ammunition Plant. Its sole purpose was originally going to be getting truckloads of bombs and artillery shells north to I-40 and south (where it would have been I-45) down to I-20 and I-10.
The Cimmaron move’s a lot of grain from western Oklahoma to the
Port of Catossa & fertilizer going the other way
im lucky my K-TAG (Kansas turnpike transponder) works on Oklahoma turn pikes as i regulary travel KC to Tulsa, and about once a year Tulsa to Dallas. yes we wind up taking the Will Rogers from Joplin to Tulsa, the creek in Tulsa then the Indian Nation south heading toward McAllister when i go to Dallas. Only reason i go that route is it's quicker then heading further west to OKC then down but still being on major toll roads (if i were to take I35 from Kansas City, id be on on the majority of the Kansas Turnpike plus all the Oklahoma ones along the way so either way im gonna be tolled a arm and leg)
Hwy 75 can use some work I live in bartlesville thanks for the video