Everyone's Racing To Replace Redis - Who Will Win?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Valkey, KeyDB, and more are quickly gaining traction after the Redis license swap. Excited to see where things end up!
THANK YOU LWN FOR LETTING ME USE YOUR BLOG POST. I subscribed right after and it's been awesome, highly recommend subscribing (it's cheap as hell too!)
SOURCES
lwn.net/Articl...
www.linuxfound...
news.ycombinat...
Check out my Twitch, Twitter, Discord more at t3.gg
S/O Ph4se0n3 for the awesome edit 🙏
HUGE shoutout to Joe Brockmeier and LWN for letting me use their article, highly recommend checking them out lwn.net/
Glad to see you were able to get it cleared without issue - was a bit of a scare on the livestream. Sad to see that they needed to expand the validation on account creation after recent attacks.
@@Kane0123 sorry for my ignorance but what are you talking about?
LWN is top-notch
Back to raw dogging my ConcurrentHashMap singleton
We all need to have a personal library with all our "temporary" solutions
@@marcosdlyI just made one, with the help of Chat Gippity, in Golang while watching this video. I know I'm oversimplifying it, and maybe it's the Dunning-Kruger Effect, but how difficult is it to make a simple in-memory key-value store? I know for more complexity and fine tweaking you'd want something like Redis, but come on
@@marcosdlyI have an npm package called `@samual/lib`
@@redpillsatori3020 That is a slippery slope my friend lol, I feel you though. Most small scale use cases you'll be fine.
@@redpillsatori3020Redis is not just a in memory KV store. Add durability, reliability, a lot of other operations redis does (sets, maps, queues, etc) and it gets really complex really fast. 😢
If you want to know why those "weird Github alternatives" exist. There is a whole story behind that too. Gogs maintainer does something that pisses people off, that causes a fork called Gitea. That goes well for a while until they piss people off, which causes another fork called Forgejo. Forgejo is a fork maintained by Codeberg.
Soon after that it became Codeberg which instead used Gitea, and in 2022 it forked Gitea into Forgejo as a response to the maintainer of Gitea forming a for-profit company behind it without much (if any?) communication with the community, transferring all trademarks to it and going against former promises made.
Codeberg is funded by donations and the primary goal is FLOSS and free/libre content. Codeberg the organization is more than "just a fork of Gitea". I encourage anybody with an interest in these topics to consider Codeberg over GitHub.
Codeberg is an ngo and a non-profit collaborative organization driven by individuals, which came to be as a response to the Microsoft acquisition of GitHub back in 2018. In the beginning it started as a project named TeaHub which was a fork of Gitea.
Genuinely interesting
@@lh8228 orrrr we could just use github, and use those donations to fund devs instead of going "grrr Microsoft" lmao
-Sent from my Microsoft Edge
@32:52 _"What's with all the weird GitHub alternatives in the Linux community, Jesus Christ?"_
No, that's totally bass-ackwards. The correct question would be: What's with the weird idea that everything needs to be on GitHub?!?
Amen!
Yup, hard L take.
@@DanWalshTV : "L take"?
Redis team not being good enough to scare Amazon off Redis but Vercel being good enough to scare Amazon off NextJS is an absolutely horrific take.
"Oh no, Redis is no longer open source, I must switch to a fork" - said a developer probably using Mac OS, deploying on AWS/Azure/"the cloud", using Visual Studio Code and Chrome.
...fair point
I don't get this comment
How did you know!
Smart developer tbf. He understands that redis in "the cloud" will cost more in the future
It's Ark instead of Chrome, but yea hahahah
The sad thing is, this strengthens companies like AWS in some ways. Like OpenTOFU where it's forked into a charitable organisation. This kind of preemptive licensing I think only works when you first start your project.
It's usually companies like AWS that hugely contribute back to projects that they use as well, since they need to squeeze every ounce of performance out of it. Small-mid sized businesses don't have the money to let their developers contribute back to OS repos on company time.
they only help themselves, never the people/company eho invented the tech @@rdvansloten
2:00 - What does "Linux has Redis as a core dependency" mean? I haven't used one single thing in Linux that required me to have Redis installed. I've used Redis myself for server backends, but I've never had an application require it. The Linux Foundation probably created this fork for the benefit of the open-source community.
Did you just say that Redis is a core component of Linux? I don't think that's true.
EDIT: oh lmao the cut-in. good guy theo
correction at 2:50:
BitKeeper, not Mercurial. Mercurial emerged around the same time as Git in 2005. Linux never used it.
Oh man, LOTS to correct about that statement; there's enough that it's probably best to pretend Theo didn't mention it. Here's the key details of what actually happened:
Bitmover ALWAYS charged for bitkeeper from day one. Torvalds was happy to pay and didn't care that it was proprietary. But not everyone liked it and it was a constant source of disagreement on the mailing list. Tridge reverse engineered the client to make an open source alternative and Bitmover pulled the plug themselves, kicking Linux off their platform because they didn't want Tridge's client to be a thing. Some people said they should switch to Subversion but nobody took the suggestion seriously because it wasn't even close to good enough. Mercurial (alongside a few other alternatives) was created specifically to fit the need by people who understood the problem, with the explicit intention for it to be picked up by the Linux kernel. But Torvalds had opinions about what he wanted and made his own system himself. It wasn't really "better", it's just that Linus wanted something specific and he decided to do it himself. A few of the other hopeful alternatives abandoned their project after Git was picked by the kernel, but Mercurial stayed around, saying their stuff was good enough to stand on its own as an alternative to Git for anyone who wanted it.
1 week after Redis license changed announcement, C gigachad already making their own version of Redis.
C# here we go, bro haven't yet realized how fast is C# lol
Shh let him live in Javascript land.
@@MrC0MPUT3R ok 💀
Not faster than deez nuts
there's also Redict by Drew DeVault
It was BitKeeper before Git, not Mercurial. Both Mercurial and Git have been developed as alternatives to BitKeeper.
He corrected himself
~ 2:50 - "Mecurial is git before git" - Actually, both git and mecurial were initially started within days of each other.
I wished more people knew linux exists. Since they decided not to host their project on github, no one in the open source ecosystem know they exist.
technically there is an official mirror
@@phygs well, true. But I did not count it on the count of it being a very very very limited one way mirror of a very specific tree. it does not show or host every other trees and discussions that shows every development.
I find it hard to believe that someone who knows what "open source" is does not know "Linux" exists 😂
@@tomshieff well, based on Theo, since they don't use github for hosting their development, they are not participating in the opensource ecosystem.
@thephoenix-bf5qd but how can that be since Linux is not participating the open source ecosystem? I mean they are not in github! Isn't it impossible to participate in open source without being in closed source code forge, owned by Microsoft? Anything other than that sound inherently ridicoulous!
Why would AWS do anything just because of pressure from a twitter thread? Not saying I agree with the licence change but the idea that any of these corporations are benevolent creatures that will see the error of their ways when they are pointed out is an absurd thought.
With snap onboard, this means keydb's performance enhancements suddenly feel likely to be folded into valkey. The king is dead, long live the king
Thing is, the Linux Foundation is not the Linux community nor even Linux developers. Yes, the Linux Foundation helps with some things around Linux (like organizing events, employing certain developers and I believe funding the infrastructure). But its primary objective is serving its constituents - Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Facebook and so on.
We pay $1200 per month to MongoDB
We do not pay as much but all in all, we are happy customers because managing the clusters is pretty much hassle-free (backups, user management, monitoring etc.)
I'll also say in terms of open source vs proprietary is that proprietary software, especially the really enterprise ones, usually have a worse user experience in order to protect buisiness secrets. The licencing, installation, and artificial limitations imposed on you are really insulting because you're actually paying for it.
A lot of Linux projects host their own repos, I'm not sure why exactly, but it's probably a mix of GitHub not being OSS, privacy, and having more control over their own projects (no surprise bans/suspensions e.g. xz's maintainer and repo).
I love the OpenSource world. It always feels like a rebellion against capitalism
Good thing we never migrated away from memcached
To be fair memcached is slow as shit, redis was a bit faster but it certainly wasnt my favorite. Have you heard of tarantool
When memcached is considered slow. Most of the time it's the poorly implemented client
@@iuse9646 we benchmarked it, in our usecase redis wasn't faster, only easier to use and a bit more modern
@@daylen577 one thing I recently noticed is that when benchmarking redis vs memcached the perf difference is not that large.
But in production memcached nodes always feel much more stable both in latency, reliability and memory usage.
Especially when lru turned on and memory reaches its limit.
That is why many big corps still use memcached or memcache-like service for their main cache.
@@quangtung2912 The only thing Redis does significantly better is the management side, it essentially acts as a key-value database and you can access it as such from various tools (like JetBrains' DataGrip) and that can be super useful at times. Memcached is just a lot more simple, and you often end up clearing the cache entirely to resolve an issue instead of trying to figure out what's going wrong.
I'll probably keep an eye on Valkey but currently deciding between Dragonfly and Keydb.
I really wanted to use Dragonfly, but had too many issues trying to get it to work in Docker as a Redis replacement, where Keydb just worked immediately.
I made the switch as soon as the Redis news came out & I'm back to in-memory-db happiness 😅
@@everyhandletaken Hmm it looks straightforward in the docs but of course things aren't always as easy as docs make it seem. I'll probably just try to put both into testcontainers and see which gives me the most headache, as a starting point.
@@ChrysusTV yeah, I was really keen on Dragonfly & not even thought of Keydb, but in the end I am happy with what I ended up with & hopefully you will be too!
Really interesting video, especially the part about Redis history. This is even worse than I thought! I hope the Linux foundation Valkey alternative will pick up speed.
Check redict out. It has been more actively worked on and by a much more renowned developer as well.
Wish valkey will add multi-master and active replica feature like in keydb. We're moving from redis too, and actually looking into keydb as it allows simpler cluster configuration for us. But if Linux Foundation will create their own, we might favor them just because who they are 😂
I discovered your channel just recently - really good content, love the in-depth stories about very niche topics like this one :) Keep on the good work!
Thanks for all the details in your video. Good the see a healthy alternative (Keyval) coming soon with most Linux distributions.
Garnet, the C# alternative, is actually faster than Redis and all of the alternative by a GOOD margin :D
Yeah but they don't pay Theo, so it's trash
@@bpx2798 shots fired 😅
Note sure what's wrong with Garnet being written in C#/.Net (especially for Azure). It can be a really fast language/framework
Theo knows next to nothing about the current state of .NET, take his comment with a grain of salt.
It is, in fact, very fast... Faster than Redis and Dragonfly in a ton of benchmarks; lower latencies and etc.
It's written in C# but it uses A LOT of unsafe pointers and pinned memory buffers. It is however MUCH more approachable to many more people than a project written in C or C++. Source: I have PR merged on the project.
Redict seems more in line with Foss than Valkey, and from what I understand it has a head start in development and compatibility. But I have my doubts it will maintain its momentum. Not sure where KeeDB stands. Guess we'll just wait and see how it shakes out.
More github alternatives, please.
Gitea
@@DreamingCodes thanks.
Gitea actually went proprietary it seems. Quite ironic under this video lol
[1/3]
Besides that, you can go with something else than git entirely. SourceHut offers Mercurial hosting too, but there's also Pijul and Fossil.
[3/3]
There's a fork called Forgejo maintained by Codeberg (which used to be a Gitea instance). Besides that, you can look for some GL instance and there's also SrHt.
[2/3]
Thank you for clarifying the whole BSD sublicensing being OK. I was more than a bit concerned that your last video gave a platform for worries this wasn't the case. Though INAL MIT should allow the same. Otherwise anyone using shadcn ui in a commercial project is screwed.
That only shows that is is impossible to make money off open-source as a small business. You will lose money and your work will be taken away from you. Open source is good for hobby projects and for ultra-big corporations.
open source is good if its not your only product
You're not wrong. Your product needs to be super popular for making money but then the big players will make a good-enough copy that has the main features.
@@vladsaveluc2659 That only if your product is something like a nosql database. For more niche software, selling licences is the only way to make any earning
4:25 Windows has WSL so it does not really need native redis.
Sleeping on Garnet would be a mistake.
Didnt linux kernel use BitKeeper before linus wrote Git
yup, he mixed up BitKeeper and Mercurial
Rest in Peace Redis
Theo, why don’t you open source uploadthing? Then you can spend your time and money innovating fast enough that I don’t run your OSS version in a Docker container.
A bit hypocritical.
yeah i want to host his thing and resell it without paying him anything, if he doesn't do that then he is literally destroying open source software
We making it out of Redis with this one 🗣️💥🗣️🗣️💥
I went to redis lab looking for managed redis, their pricing was like a middle finger no wonder cloud providers take their money.
FWIW, the MongoDB Atlas serverless offering seems quite reasonably priced for SMB and startups.
Glad to see you asked for permission before reading out someone else's post
I will never get on a phone call to somebody's tool.
you can store kv pairs on postgres with some minor mods looks into it
Corporations will just use a Redis cloud equivalent anyways. It might even be better for the devops for not having to manage Redis instances.
Mercurial and git are actually quite contemporary, I believe Mercurial started development first but released later? I don't think it is fair to say Mercurial came "after git".
"Everyone" in the title is a clickbait, I'm pretty sure that majority of Redis users are not going to do anything because of the license change.
eh, there seems to be things people want that the "algorithm" doesn't do much for. I'm referring to content that is ad-unfriendly. War. Politics. etc.
Vercel is built on top of AWS, why would they compete?
Redis screwed itself with the way it made this change, but that doesn't mean the monopoly cloud providers Amazon, Google, and Microsoft, who make a lot of money using open-source software, are in the right. Good to see the hardcore open-source groups taking up development.
It's funny how whenever a license change, or corporate change happens, everyone forks it and the project dies. Nobody ever seems to pay attention.
The lesson here is the same as terraform: open source business models don’t work, don’t base your company on an open source product.
They are for-profit companies. Why would they honor that verbal agreement that isn't written in law? And who are they contracting to? open source community isn't all altruistic either. It is just who is lesser evil that's all.
This made me laugh so hard, thanks for sharing!
i just noticed theo doesn't look at the camera for the entire video
It's kinda funny how after the license change it was immediately global common sense that redis is dead forever and we need alternatives.
"what's with all the github alternatives in the linux community" this comment makes me feel old since i remember when Balmer called Linux communism. Yeah they now contribute and even ship it but some of the old heads still sleep with one eye open.
Microsoft Garnet is interesting. Redis replacement written in C#? Quite unusual.
@t3dotgg is MongoDB next? The Linux Foundation could destroy NASDAQ: MDB
Perhaps Valkey could grow to capture Mongo use-cases as the project grows
edit: LOL, i commented well before the entire mongo segment
Is it worth discussing why Redis felt cloud providers weren’t contributing fairly despite Amazon be happy to throw engineering and Money at the project under the Linux foundation?
Self interest sure, but are essentially co-opting open source tech by going this route?
Because any given tech is nice, but if all companies who want to do cloud-something with it have to choose between Pepsi and AWSCola, there will be a fracture in the ecosystem.
You forgot Garnet by microsoft
The irony of a company taking and selling a once open source product, taking on the founder of it, when he leaves make a promise to keep it open source then claiming other people selling 'their' software as a service was 'taking advantage' of them... Someone in that company really doesn't understand open source in the slightest.
Redis' Unity moment 😅
This is more like Redis's Terraform moment.
Redis is dead! Long live Redis!
Don't underestimate the power of corporate idiocy, w.r.t. ridiculous subscriptions like MongoDB. Spending on commercial software among the Fortune 100 is truly insane. Throw in AI's outlandish promises, and the C-suite is pissing money in every direction.
Here is why you should NOT contribute to open source: Theo and his company friends getting salty if they do not sell a free product as a SaaS.
"how dare you stop building a product that AWS and Google resell without contributing anything back? you monsters"
Mercurial has NEVER been used for Linux development, has always been free in both senses of the word, and is in fact younger than Git. The proprietary solution that the Linux kernel used before Git was BitKeeper, NOT Mercurial. Just like Git, Mercurial was developed _in response_ to the BitKeeper fiasco.
I correct myself in a few seconds
@@t3dotggis there a reason you left the false stuff in the final edit?
Don’t blame op for real time commenting on something you said.
This is already a long video, having parts of it just being false information and then correcting yourself doesn’t make sense to me.
@@skylerockspecialbecause aside from the name the rest still adds up? Anyone with a brain isn't confused by this, stop trying to find reasons to be upset
@@t3dotgg : Fortunately you also _kind of_ correct yourself after "anyone could take Redis, or the Linux kernel, and republish under their own license". No, they couldn't, since the Linux kernel is not BSD- but GPL-licensed. Maybe you should write a script for these things, fact check it, and stick to it?
@@skylerockspecial what’s the difference between real time recording and real time commenting? Ones much easier to fix in post lmao
If you take your ball and go home, you must not be surprised that all other people stop improving your ball.
OK, TH-cam still really doesn't like me posting links. Garnet was mentioned in the comments for your first vid on Redis' self-sabotaging.
Looking up garnet, cache-store, Microsoft and Badrish Chandramouli should hopefully bring up the announcement blog post.
I think the problem isn't performance, it's that it's not the most well supported language on Linux and if MS decide to drop it one day (or stop supporting C# on Linux) it'll just wither away in a way that just doesn't happen with established projects in common languages.
It's fully supported on linux and completely open source - I'd guess you meant that it's not the most popular OSS language, which is fair enough. If MS were to stop supporting C# on linux (which would be absolutely bonkers, they use C# on Linux for azure stuff), there'd immediately be an active community-driven set of binaries/etc.
@@OnHalo Yeah, I mostly don't see a lot of traction for C# in the broader linux world but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.
But anything can happen and just 10 years ago MS was still the enemy of open source so, we'll see.
It's very well supported on Linux.
Redis has the right to do what they did to survive and thrive, and they did it in a way where most users aren't affected. I don't actually see what the problem is. Aren't you just being exactly like Amazon by whining about not being able to take advantage of their work however you want anymore? Everything is political = everything is a power struggle. Just because we lose doesn't mean that we're right and they're wrong.
I want to see who will be the next fool to work for free and then be rejected by the community he built because he wants to be less exploited
Out of context, I want to buy those hair. Where can I find 'em?
Do you work at Netflix btw?
Can you do a video on the Anaconda/Conda license updates, please.
Bun supports windows now.
Am I the only one who doesn't know how to use redis 🤣
TLDR:
SET key value;
GET key;
put message in, get message out
What about dragonfly?
tbh Redis (Redis Labs) will win because all forks will be 3-BSD and they can just absorb any contributions to any of them, too bad it wasn't GPL lol.
This is all so stressful and annoying. Maybe because it is so abstract from end-user needs? But also because it feels so corrupt: middle-men fighting to squeeze the most un-earned income possible from the past creative accomplishments of others.
bun is on windows now
What about redis search and redis json?
4:30 Bun 1.1 already came out, with windows support lmao
Who uses Windows?
just swapped to linux somewhat recently, from windows10. the amount of times ive encountered issues caused from weird linux people being weird and stubborn is too dang hi. thats why im loving popOS so much so far. realistic consistency between everything instead of "ITS FREE AND OPEN SOURCE ONLY AND IT WORKS SOMETIMES BUT YOU GOTTA FIX IT MOST OFTHE TIME... STILL BETTER THAN WINDOWS THO FOR SURE".
so much penguinCope.
what's next AWS Valkey
Redict
valkey is a banger name
Kinda interesting how amongst the 7 known largest changeset contributions by employer, only 2 of them are non-Chinese.
I thought the Linux foundation had nothing to do with Linux
Is there a channel on youtube that boils this 34 minute yapping into something more palatable?
Just take your Adderall.
@@lolkthnxbai It's not that. It is not that, it's that I value my time more than you do.
If you do not want the additional commentary, you could just read the original article. Goes for a lot of programming TH-cam.
@@azmah1999 You're right, didn't know that he included the links to the articles.
@@NoobaLVyet you take the time to make the comment and reply.
8:48: Suddenly Redis isn't the annoying name in the world, although it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Why do companies like redis and unity do these kinds of rugpulls? Don't they know that we live in a world of free market?
Unity wasn't even a rugpull they switched from a very permissive licensing model to a more standard one. Most engines are licensed in the way they first proposed. People with no industry experience freaked out over nothing as usual.
Hey Theo, just checking if this comment will get through or if you're accepting comments manually or something. I left a long reply using my phone to a comment but it won't show up. It just says "1 reply" but nothing appears when I click on the button. Is it you or is it caught in the youtube spam filter for some reason? I was not using foul language or anything, nothing aggressive at all. Just normal, factual info about Codeberg.
This is so annoying... and I did not make a copy of the text before posting.
EDIT: Could it be caught in the spam filter because I repeated words like "Codeberg" and "Gitea" a tiny few too many times? If that's the case: wow... such a sophisticated spam filter you got there Google! I'm not even given the opportunity to edit my comment, if this actually is the case. I'm speechless (pun intended).
It's the TH-cam -censorship- automoderation feature. Creators don't really have that much control over it so the only thing we can do is censor ourselves and see what sticks.
After I changed the sorting to "from newest" I can see three replies from you under a comment by @robvdl:
_Soon after that it…_
_Codeberg is funded by…_
_Codeberg is an ngo…_
It's the TH-cam -censorship- automoderation feature. Creators don't really have that much control over it so the only thing we can do is censor ourselves and see what sticks.
[1/3]
After I changed the sorting to "from newest" I can see three replies from you under a comment by @robvdl:
[2/3]
_Soon after that it…_
_Codeberg is funded by…_
_Codeberg is an ngo…_
[3/3]
Also, YES to stupid "Call Team" buttons!!!! PLEASE NO MORE! SO annoying.
People are overreacting over this.
It really sad but who going to maintain their Redis. Since most of the company have with draw their support and money. But that company was shady and out right lying as I feel the creator was being bullied.
somebody is compliant in a wordcrime
"Linux relies a lot on Redis".... huh?
dragonflydb