Everything Wrong With Nintendo’s Design Philosophy and Why Paper Mario had to Die.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ค. 2024
- Why does Nintendo refuse to produce the Paper Mario game that so many fans want to see? Like literally: Why? This question honestly started to kind of haunt me. I ended up spending way too much time thinking about why Nintendo refuses to produce the Paper Mario game that so many people want to see, and I believe I finally found the answer, or at least I have a theory. So today, we are going to explore this question. We are going to take a look at a couple of Nintendo franchises and how they evolved , we will discuss a couple of brilliant design decisions that nintendo recently made as well as chatter about a couple of incredible dumb ones, we will find out how all of this is connected and why it is the reason for many of nintendo’s more recent design desasters. But most importantly of all, we are going to find out why the classic Paper Mario format had to die.
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00:00 - Intro
01:47 - The part of the video that actually is about Paper Mario.
06:31 - 380 moons for nothing.
11:58 - Progress everywhere but there.
18:25 - Losing Metroid.
22:53 - It was murder.
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Link to Game Maker's Toolkit fantastic channel:
/ mcbacon1337
------------------Credits for the Music-------------------------
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga OST - Teehee Valley
Paper Mario Origami King OST - Snif City Royal Hotel
Paper Mario Origami King OST - Missile Launch
Paper Mario Origami King OST - The Western Ends
Paper Mario Origami King OST - The Elastic Entertainer Enters
Super Mario Odyssey OST - Bonneton
Super Mario Odyssey OST - Steam Garden
Immortals: Fenyx Rising OST - Heart of the Hero
The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time OST - Gerudo Valley
The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time OST - Song of Storms
------Holfix
/ holfix
HolFix - Beyond The Kingdom
• [Free Music] HolFix - ...
------Kevin MacLeod
"Adventure Meme"
Kevin MacLeod incompetech.com
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
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Huge thanks to LongplayArchive for providing open game footage of: Metroid Prime, Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door, Metroid (NES), Pokemon Evee and Luigi’s Mansion.
/ longplayarchive - เกม
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W1D3 | Summer | เคาะ 8 ทีมแรก ที่ไปรอวันอาทิตย์](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eKFbDC1qe38/mqdefault.jpg)
Conspiracy theory: Nintendo replaced EXP with shiny yet deadly coins just to annoy Ceave.
And they infected Mario Kart 8, too
Who needs this video when we have this epic theory
@@ronyrubinov7449 We still need this video
@Gamey Firebro Bandy normally collects all the coins. nicobbq normally hates them
Execution points?
"We don't need two Mario rpg franchises!"
Cool, so now we have none!
@HoneyBunny /ハニーバニー wait until you find out about the side modes in the remakes
@@HBGamingTD also paper jam really didn’t live up to the standards of the first 4 games. While it’s not a bad game, it’s plot is way more generic and I don’t think it introduced a single new character
@@NewSoupWiiHii Good thing they’re just side modes.
(Disclaimer: I haven’t actually played the remakes so I don’t know if the side modes are bad or not, but that doesn’t make the whole series rotten if they are).
Mario & Luigi 2 was way too much of a constant dumpster fire for me to bother trying any of the games that came after it.
Using the same item over & over to whittle down a boss' gigantic health bar & invalidating my own stat growth in the process is mind numbing beyond words. Shroob Queen is probably the worst boss in any game I've ever played. I'd much rather fight a metal golem from Dragon's Dogma as a mage. I've done that.
Also, switching controls because a character got K.O.'d is insanely asinine.
@@thebestworst8002 it’s funny that paper jam is the only one that haven’t added a new character 🤣
restricting oneself via self imposed challenges can induce creativity. but when it goes too far, it can restrict it instead.
Yes, it's like Nintendo is so focused on making a widely acceptable game that they lost focus on making a game that can have focus, like BOTW and Odyssey have more than enough collectibles to beat the game as to give everyone and avenue to get to the end, but forget about those who WANT to get everything.. they torture them essentially for wanting to experience all the game they own has to offer..
This. The fact that I had to limit myself to using ranged weapons only to make BotW enjoyable was a huge minus for me. It's a stepping stone towards a complete omission of new ideas.
I recall that being a major problem with the Metroid: Other M control scheme, since they deliberately limited themselves to not using all the buttons of the Wiimote and Nunchuck to try and boost their creativity, but instead made the missile system unnecessarily clunky.
That or you just give up and have mario *(spoilers for paper mario oragami king)*
collect elemental abilities from the slain corpses of gods of old
I'm pretty sure that counts as a metroidvania style progression system
@@bruhboss3141 yes but you aren't allowed to use those elemental abilities enough. I don't think they utilized those abilities to their fullest potential.
"Nintendo willfully restricts themselves... in order to find more creative and pure solutions"
.....That one sentence would explain a *lot* about the things nintendo does. It makes me think back to an Arlo video where he talks about the teams not being *allowed* to create new characters or species, so I wonder.... is that sort a thing a result of this philosophy having gone too strict?
Yes
That is more a double edge. Using what is about to build something is a sign of masters but it sometimes need something new to evolve the way. It depends on the situation.
@@Yinyanyeow Two sides of a coin. We could call one head and the other tails, but "nintendo" and "sega" would be simpler.
@@sarowie I Disagree with you there... but I get you
Honestly I think that's a good thing. If Nintendo didn't do this kind of thing we wouldn't even have motion controls today. There's a good chance Nintendo would've be kicked out of the console wars and not made the wii. There's a good chance they couldn't have made the switch. Things like SMO and TLoZ would have never been made if they didn't do this
The issue with religiously following a different design toolkit than everyone else is that between all your games, that toolkit becomes as stale as the one you wanted to avoid.
Ceave answered why they changed Paper Mario, but not why they wanted to change it in the first place. I don't see any reason why they needed to remove as much progression as possible from every game.
@@knosos15 Exactly this - certain game genres like strategy games and RPGs just don't fit this (arguably brilliant) new Nintendo design philosophy well at all compared to open-world action-adventures or platformers
@@ZachAttack6089 Actually it's likely nintendo trying to be different for the sake of newness. If you wanted to keep your games fresh, it would be better to be different then the same. How would nintendo be able to sell a console if they're games we like everyone else?
@@knosos15 Odyssey was an extremley stale game for many people including me, but whatever
@@ZachAttack6089 it was changed for the sake of change.
Ring Fit Adventure has a skill tree, but that is mostly because the whole game is about making gains.
Yeah
I have been spoiled
:(
If it's about gaining weight, then I must've misunderstood all the marketing.
Yeah, because if just working out was intuitively fun you wouldn't buy a game for it.
Lmao
A quote from Kensuke Tanba stated in an interview with gamerant "since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it's no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario Universe." This sits with the theory that has circulated that their is a regulatory system in place on how the mario franchise can be presented. You can no longer present mario in any way other than mario, and likewise many other super mario characters. But what this means is that characters don't get, well character. This can even be seen in animal crossing. Where personality perks have been reduced to become more simple, while adding new ways to interact with the world instead. As a long time fan of the series, realising I that the animals had no intrinsic desire and very fine relationships with others pushed me away from the game much quicker than any other in the series, and it makes me think games like the original animal crossing where neighbours could just be rude, or creative artstyles that made mario more intense like Mario Strikers will never be greenlit by Nintendo again.
The Mario mandate, as some call it.
I pucked at least 3 times when I read this interview. Also each interview with Tanabe was worst to worst lol.
@@Terranigma23 You mean puked?
@@Pantano63 Yes sorry lol. English is not my native language and it's 3AM at my home.
Odyssey intriduced new characters. Did he mean characters that didn't fit a specific formula?
Restrictions breed creativity, but if they are taken too far, they can restrict creativity instead.
Like auto-erotic asphyxiation :) a little bit is enjoyable but too much and you can hurt yourself.
@@polarknight5376 only for people with that fetish
@@Sandaquaza so everyone?
Jk.
"How do shrines work in Breath of the Wild: Bethesda Edition?"
They don't
No no no, they _just_ work.
They don't until modders come in and force it to
You try to go down the elevator and instead end up clipping through the floor and falling into the abyss. :P
@@azetac_ It just works,it just works
Theres 3 buttons with numbers 1 2 3 on them and a sign thats says "press in order"
“Humor is top-notch”
*Shows a koopa troopa being murdered*
That was hilarious!
@@albertfanmingo ikr
Better! (Or worse.) A Koopa Troopa is being murdered and his mangled corpse is being reanimated into a mutilated construct!
Funny!
@@cromanticheer h u m o r
"Cleaning is an engaging Zen experience." The most Japanese sentence ever
And that sentiment is probably the reason why Mario sunshine exists.
The popularity of videos on TH-cam about cleaning someone's clogged pores or other, skin conditions is what I immediately thought of as supporting evidence.
I mean, Luigi's Mansion 3 made me fall in love with sucking things up with the Poltergust simply for the action of doing so, so I think the director had a point.
Then again, Luigi's Mansion 3 was a SUCCESSFUL version of this mentality Nintendo has, while Origami King missed the mark, so clearly the mentality being outlined is not the issue.
@@norsehorse84 Dynamic deformation and sound design plays a part
To be fair, I get a certain satisfaction when playing Chibi Robo and cleaning everything in sight.
They didn't have to butcher fun and interesting new characters in Paper Mario just to meet this philosophy. There is so much wrong with the direction they took this franchise.
the company that makes Paper Mario, Intelligent Systems, seems to prefer working on Fire Emblem, IMO.
The actual creator of the Paper Mario franchise switched to the Fire Emblem team because he thought Paper Mario was a creative dead end.
Would you say you had a BAD TIME playing the newer games?
Fun Fact: You mentioned that paper Mario’s badge system is similar to Hollow Knight’s charm system, and there’s a very good reason for that. Team Cherry actually took inspiration directly from Paper Mario when making the charm system.
now hollow knight is following me smh
Well yeah, it seems pretty obvious
Ok I need to play Hollow Knight now
Thats actually a prime example for how nintendo interacts with the gaming market. Make some cool innovation and drop them as soon as they become mainstream to make new ones. This strategy might not always result in highest sales, but their huge impact on gaming as a whole by being the main force behind innovating and pushing everything forward can't be valued high enough
@@doomse150 that's a fair point, anything great gets picked up by other develops as nintendo moves on to new ideas, though it feels like the "new" paper mario fomula hasn't been edited despite being meh at best
Yeah, nintendo be like: "let's do an RPG without any RPG elements"
Getting Max-Up hearts are basically a level up though.
More like "an open sandbox without any RPG elements," but sure.
just so you know, lvl and exp are the worst mechanic of all time for games.
@@TheZenytram
Mostly when you have to *grind or farm* for them.
@@Bezaliel13 every one will end up like that, even if the game make it super easy to you go through without the need of grind, you will grind just for the sake of it.
"How do shrines work in bethesda edition ?"
They don't until the patch
no, the patch *tries* to fix them, but all the patch does it make the shrines spawn deathclaws. you've gotta wait for UBOTWBEP (Unofficial BOTW Bethesda Edition Patch) to patch it out
They work by grabbing a cone and using it to fly to through the ceiling.
I think you mean until the modding community fixes it for them.
As an Elder Scrolls fan, the accuracy of these comments makes me sad.
Oh my gosh. This video nailed it. Nintendo basically has tried removing extrinsic motivation from their games, replacing it purely with intrinsic. RPGs are one of the most extrinsically motivated genres out there, so removing stuff like badges and other RPG trappings from Paper Mario makes so much sense. My mind is actually blown by this. Fantastic video.
Makes me curious as to if it’s possible to do an intrinsic RPG right.
If you ask me, the permanent equipment pickups are a base minimum of leveling along with health and stamina.
@@mushroomfusion245 It’s might be theoretically possible but at least in my opinion it would be very difficult. RPG combat is decently fun but ultimately going a bunch of simple turn-based fights against basic trash mobs isn’t all that fun. I enjoy doing it because of the fact that it makes me stronger and I see my character growing and progressing through the game. But when there’s no reward it’s just boring and tedious. To make an intrinsically fun turn-based RPG you’d have to do a lot to make each individual battle feel enjoyable, which, let’s just say is way easier said than done. Probably why that type of game doesn’t really exist.
@@IceBlueLugia
Does Undertale count?
@@Luigicat11 I hadn’t really thought of that, but yeah, I guess it could sort of count. I also thought of Chrono Trigger, there’s only like 3-4 trash mob encounters per area so it’s easy for each battle to feel interesting and distinct
I think this theory is a lot more plausible than "Nintendo has a big ego". I've had a similar thought to this for a while but you've worded it so perfectly.
I agree, it isn’t just that they “have a big ego” or just can’t do it. It was explained pretty well here.
The big ego was Arlo's theory, right? The ego is probably part of the reason, but Ceave's explanation was definitely more thought out. To be fair though, Ceave made an entire 30-minute analysis video just about this, and Arlo was just reviewing Paper Mario TOK so he couldn't think that much about this issue.
YOOO ITS MAYRO LETS GO
True... Btw, hello!!!
I believe nintendo does have a big ego, but I can't say their big ego is what killed the paper mario series as we knew it
This theory makes more sense
I've definitely noticed Nintendo shying away from "systems" in recent years (to my own personal disappointment in many cases), but I hadn't considered closely examining every series with the theory in mind. Great point about how this might be why Metroid is mostly MIA.
Hi, Arlo. Having watched all your videos criticizing the modern state of Paper Mario, and now watching this one, I really have no hope left for the series. And Ceave has me fearing for lots of other Nintendo series, too. Depressing.
There needs to be more foresight during development, have them ask each other "Is this FUN, though?" Mario Odyssey gives you a wonderful set of options, but translating that onto an RPG like pepper merio sounds like a task Nintendo may not be ready for, but that's exactly what makes the best Nintendo games when you really think about it, some of the most acclaimed nintendo games always a flair of experimentation. That feeling of uncertainty, of treading new ground with old tools, it should give devs a reason to GET CREATIVE around certain metroid-era limitations in a modern landscape, finding a way to seamlessly incorporate it into their new standard. Nintendo is definitely the best when they have a "new meets old" approach, but not everyone IN the company sees eye to eye on it. I wonder what their playtesters have told them, do they even have playtesters anymore? I dunno, maybe they're afraid of being rude in their culture, but man, if I'm not having fun, then it's not a nintendo game to me.
Yeah, I agree.
Hey arlo, didn't expect to see you here.
Oh good. I was gonna comment "Someone send this to Arlo." Now I don't have to, even though in a roundabout way I just did.
Wow, they've been like this for the past 10 years huh? I knew something about their games changed but I couldn't figure it out, and now I finally know what it is! It's mad how such a simple change in philosophy can drastically change how a game plays and feels
There’s also the fact that Nintendo got stricter with its IP, causing a lot of the talent and passion at Intelligent Systems to gravitate away from Paper Mario, towards Fire Emblem.
>Why does Nintendo refuse to reintroduce mechanics players have been begging for?
Pokemon fans: First time?
Why they got rid of the pokeblock berry minigame :(
@Buff Ringo it exist, its called "pokemon colosseum minigames"
Oh, Mega Evolution. You were the only new mechanic I ever loved. Breathing new life into our beloved older gen pokemon, they could have continued making mega evolutions for the rest of pokemon's lifespan. Then gamefreak got gimmick fever and we've had z moves and dynamax since, which were just so, so crap.
Ahahaha yeah (sniff) (rip mega, z powers, secret bases, battle frontier and contest, we will miss you guys and I'll miss contests)
@@megamarkread Didn't stop it from selling over 20million copies. Which is proof to me anyone in the same echo chamber is in the minority. Keep being loud about how gamefreak is evil, cause Nintendo isn't gonna care.
"Will the weapons break in the Ubisoft version?" Dude, EVERYTHING breaks in the Ubisoft version.
He did the same thing when referencing Link opening a chest. Calling Link Zelda as a joke
@@tyranttracergaming I tihnk you replied to the wrong comment.
Bethesda too, except it's the code that constantly breaks
@@nintenprox4639 I have a conspiracy, Bethesda is ran by Yandere Dev.
no no no you're wrong. The guy's name *is* Zelda. The princess' name is Luigi.
Wait, then who's the dude with the green cap?
A great sin was committed today in jest.
@@amazingfireboy1848 you mean Green Mario?
@@chinodrisdino yea
Is Luigi in another castle?
"if a person were to sit down, with the honorable goal to binge through odyssey until they picked up each and every moon, this lovely person is probably about to have a horrible time"
:|
*shudders in volleyball*
I got every moon just because I felt like it and had fun. Jump rope kinda sucks, though. I cheesed volleyball with 2 player mode.
@Alibek Zholaman Switch to 2P mode and control Cappy.
Smallant1 has left the chat
@@redella50 Hahahaha
Incremental games are the exact opposite of this design philosophy. They literally revolve around seeing meaningless numbers go up.
"Accuracy +1"
AKA clicker games.
incremental?
@@sakesaurus1706 Cookie Clickers.
"the items Zelda acquires throughout the games in the series named after him" lmao
And the "guy called metroid"
This caught me by surprise. Is he just trolling?
Why would he? That's their names
@@jackfelder2560 trolling what? Metroid is a cool dude
yea it hurt me
the main character, whose _name is metroid_ ... _his_ "turn into a ball" ability .... what a troll
Ceave clearly has had to many interactions like that
zelda in the game named after himself
You didn't mention it, but it's interesting to see how this philosophy is creeping into the Pokemon series. HMs were entirely phased out in gen 7, replaced by ride Pokemon that served the same function of traversal and interacting with the environment. Now in gen 8, the only traversal upgrades are tied to the bike, and only one upgrade expands the areas you can access.
I'm really interested in seeing how Pokemon will continue to change in accordance with this philosophy, given that traditional upgrade systems are fundamentally integral to the DNA of the series.
And here we are in gen 9 [shpoilersh]:
TMs are craftable, the cover legend is your bike, you do a whole BotW arc to upgrade your lizard bike, so many features of previous games have been removed for literally no reason (mass/egg release why?!), and so much of the game feels both new and fresh while also feeling as stale and dull as the last few entries have. It's very frustrating for me as someone who likes pokemon as a system and rpg, but can't stand the insufferable fluff (and recent handholding / railroading).
I like the way Hollow Knight handles Metroidvania-style progression. After the first couple of areas, you are free to explore the rest of the game in pretty much any order you choose. However, instead of just tossing you out on a big, open field where everything is accessible at once, there are still Metroidvania progression locks that need certain abilities to get past; You're just free to go straight to finding those abilities in any order.
This approach allows Hollow Knight to have solid structure to its map and tell a deep story, while still allowing the player to interact with the game in virtually any way they choose.
"What would Breath of the Wild look like if it waa developed by EA"
Cold chills just went down my spine.
It costs money to open the chest with the Master Sword. In fact, in order to increase/remove durability from an item, you need to pay money to TEMPORARILY do so. More money for a rarer item. Oh yeah, and lootboxes.
And an entry fee for hyrule castle
Everything is miles apart and transportation is gated behind loot boxes.
Genshin Impact... but 100% more greedy.
To be honest, nowadays it'd probably be along the same lines as what we see with Fenyx Rising: more standard AAA trappings to it with skill trees and upgrades. They also probably wouldn't have made as much of the content optional, in order to tell more of a story in the present
Also there'd probably be a lot less variation in the terrain, or there would be multiple different maps, because planets in Star Wars tend to be mono-climates, and it would DEFINITELY be a Star Wars game. Pretty much everything they publish lately is either an established series with its genre set in stone, or it's Star Wars.
Microtransactions would probably actually be non-existent or limited to directly purchasable cosmetics, as has been their norm in non-sports games since after Battlefront II.
Paper Mario is that one exception to the Mario execution day on March 31st. Except this time it got executed a long time ago...
First :D
If anyone says wow u are everywhere to sethica they are dumb
wow u are everywhere
wow u are everywhere
@@slimehead1391 Good old Streisand Effect.
Nintendo can be stubbornly stupid when it comes to certain decisions, like instead of different franchises having different systems of progression of play, they'll stick to one way for a number of years and try to force all their franchises to play in this certain way, even if it doesn't work sometimes.
When he said “yum yum mushroom,” I felt that
I'm calling it. In Pikmin 4 you'll start with all Pikmin types, as to prevent metroidlike progress
The Pikmin will have a durability system
Watch it being only one type of pikmin tho...
Knowing Nintendo the purple, white, rock, and flying Pikmin will be paid dlc. Bulbmin sold separately.
@@picklechicken8396 whoa whoa whoa, slow down there. We're talking about Nintendo not gamefreak
@@benthemother3fan884 you’re right. You just never know with Nintendo... you never know...
This is probably the most realistic theory on why Paper Mario changed. I just want to point out why I think this new design philosophy doesn't fit Paper Mario (or Turn-based Strategy/RPGs in general).
*1. Creating a character build is fun:* I love TCGs, and part of that love is deck-building. Badges in Paper Mario have a similar feel. Why does it matter if the reward is arbitrary? The reward facilitates other avenues of enjoyment. I barely play competitive Pokemon but I love breeding perfect Pokemon with egg moves and etc. Removing character progression eliminates that enjoyment from the game.
*2. Battles should matter:* Some people might find fun in turn-based battles on their own right, and that's fine. But it takes so much more time to kill a Goomba in Paper Mario than regular Mario. So the people who don't find the system itself enjoyable should be able to find other fun. Classic Paper Mario had the badge system, so if you like character building you can test out your setups and that's fun. It also had Action Commands, which I think counts as "part of the system" like the circle puzzle in Origami King. But for people who don't like either of those things, experience points are a permanent progression that makes people feel like their time wasn't wasted. Removing XP inevitably leads to wasting people's time if they're playing for the story/characters/dialogue/puzzles/etc and not the battles.
*3: Limited Iterations on Battles:* Despite being a Nintendo game, Origami King does not do enough with its battle system to keep it feeling fresh. The boss battles are the best part of the combat because not only is it a different take on the base system but each boss does something unique. You get far less of that in normal battles. In Classic Paper Mario the freshness comes from unique enemy attacks with their own block timings, a larger pool of badges to build setups with, and new partners with new skills. New Paper Mario takes the "jump these enemies, hammer these other enemies" and "hit A to block when enemy touch you" and leaves everything interesting behind in the name of eliminating character progression. Nintendo cut off its nose to spite its face.
... I think having your tools not degrade utterly helps make N64 PM fun.
Finding the quake badge and learning it ignores defense, makes a whole bunch of enemies trivial to fight (the spikey headed rock guys) that are normally really hard to fight, and the game doesn't punish you for over using it, in a random feeling way. (you can always see your fp, and decide to avoid fights if you don't have enough for a fight)
Yeah, also it's so fun seeing so many people make their own fanmade partner OCs and ideas. Partners (for story reasons AND more) and original designs for more than a than just few things were just a fun concept.
Also, this is just an observation that hasn't played the game per se but has seen walkthroughs so it should still be a KINDA valid observation, most of the enemies don't really seem that unique to fight from each other, not much making them different besides a few like say Boos which actually play off the gameplay design. And most of the attacks you do see are just generic team up and throw each other at you stuff. I guess that might not matter to some people, but it still kinda kills enemy variety/creativity. Regardless, I feel like most people can agree this series shouldn't be at the point where the only new enemies they can put in the game have to be paper monsters.
I like the way the first 3 M+L games handled combat too. It’s really fun to pull off evasion timings in addition to using bro points for strategy. I enjoy your likening to TCG because deck identity is a lot about theme and progression. I’m still frequent to Duel Links for the new cards even if the pve events aren’t usually all that special.
wow i just realized why the "only to enjoy the story" - difficulty exists in RPG's. I always thought that would be an useless addition, because i could never imagine to play a RPG without playing on highest difficulty to get challanged. But it makes sense if you don't like the combat at all of the game to have an option to still enjoy the story without wasting much time with combat. I always dropped titles if i didn't like the combat, but now maybe i start to use this difficulty instead.
Just seems like they swung the pendulum way too far in the opposite direction. The key word you used was "fun". As it turns out, fun is more important than sticking with some design principle. Maybe some of us enjoy thinking about where something cool could be hidden instead of just constantly hammering things to get paper with one button and then constantly pushing a different button to throw that paper to fill a hole. Super fun...
Honestly this explains really well why I tend not to enjoy the modern Nintendo games like others do. I really like that sense of reward and growth and skill trees (within reason) and find it difficult to intrinsically motivate myself to play a game without those. Thanks for putting that into words!
This video is very outdated tho, we've had only in 2022 two Pokémon games, Kirby and the forgotten land, Bayonetta 3, Xenoblade Chronicles 3, a new Mario and Rabbids and a Mario Strikers with unlockable equipment
Playing classic gamecube games ive never played before give me such a fun experience from beginning to end. modern nintendo games never give me that feeling
@@RonaKuronaAnd now Pikmin 4
"What does EA's Breath of the Wild looks like"
Euh, I wouldn't want to see it, just imagine all the bugs and microtransactions it would contain!
So Genshin Impact then
@@master_ego94 *_h u h ?_*
Star Wars: The Old Republic?
@@master_ego94 That’s a Chinese game though and it’s far from buggy
Uh oh! Your Pot Lid broke! Pay $4.99 to repair it now?
Someone on the internet acknowledged Wario Land 3. My life is now complete.
Corenton Dorgueil why didnt you just look up wario land three?
Why is nobody appreciating the fact that ceave put accurate captions on a 30 minute long video?
Oh wow you're right, I just realized that they weren't auto generated
Yep. Pretty nice
He does it on every video
Thank you, Ceave. They really help when I watch the video at double speed.
I wonder if he has a typed script prepared and that makes it easier to copy over. Still insanely impressive.
The problem with this design philosophy is that it is way harder to pull off in the long term. Odyssey and BotW are brilliant games because of what they are; different and new experiences that we haven't had before, delivered with exceedingly high quality. But where does the Zelda franchise go from here? If BotW 2 is the same formula as BotW, then what of the Zelda game afterwards? Will it also be the same formula as BotW? Or will it return to the classic Zelda formula? If it just keeps going with the BotW formula, then will the game after BotW 2 just be "Here, we designed a new world to explore but not feel obligated to actually do anything in. Go have fun!"? Will ALL the Zelda games after BotW be the same? BotW is a phenomenal game, but... well... as much as I enjoyed the experience of playing it, there is still a bigger place in my heart for Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Not just because I played those when I was younger, but because those games were more defined experiences rather than me just going and doing whatever. They still had ample exploration and discovery, but that was built around core systems of game progression. But if the entire Zelda series from now on just becomes "Go look over there! Maybe you'll find a cool experience but nothing really all that useful!" then I don't know if I'll continue to buy them.
A game that just says "Go do what you want, and enjoy whatever you please! There is no obligation!" is great. But when all of your games are that, they become stale ironically. If the next 3D Mario is the same exact formula as Odyssey just with a new gimmick (like Cappy or FLUDD), then it will pretty much just be Odyssey 2. The experience is brilliant, but it is not defined. The experience of exploration and freedom is great every once in a while, but you need limiting systems to differentiate games and provide progression both in each individual game as well as across a franchise. Let's not forget that the 'linear' designs of classic Mario and Zelda games became two of the greatest video game franchises of all time. This is also likely the reason why we won't ever really see a Minecraft 2. The core gameplay of Minecraft doesn't lend itself to sequels, because a true Minecraft sequel would basically just be Minecraft but with more content (which is what Mojang ended up doing. Continuing to update Minecraft with more content).
Let's also not forget that indie games are rapidly becoming darlings of the game industry. Every year more and more marvelous indie games are adored and earn lifelong fans. Surely, they aren't all great, but some of the top indie games released in modern times earn legend status, while even phenomenal games like BotW and Odyssey merely become "Great entries that depart from the traditions of the franchise". Indie games these days are more caught up in old school or traditional game design, as opposed to most modern triple A titles being designed for 'optimum money making/play time generating', or in Nintendo's case "Make your own experiences! Just have fun!".
Bug Fables is a game that heavily leans into the classic Paper Mario formula. You know what happens when I browse over my list of Switch games? I go over BotW and Odyssey and think "Man, what great games", and then I go over Bug Fables and my heart leaps a little in my chest just because I loved it soooo much, even though it wasn't open ended or allowed me to 'create my own experiences'. Even though it was a more rigid linear game, I adored it to a level that placed it above the gaming giants of Mario and Zelda putting out some of their best games in years.
Now, maybe I am biased because I adored the original Paper Mario formula when I was a kid. But I've found that in my adult life, I keep wandering into games and franchises with extremely rigid systems that still deliver magnificent experiences. Now, I've played RPGs and JRPGs before, so Persona 4 wasn't an 'entirely new type of experience'. In fact, it was far MORE linear and rigid in design than nearly every other RPG/JRPG I've played. I'd almost describe it as on 'on rails' JRPG. Yet it's one of my favorite games that I've played in the past decade. I will remember that game for years if not decades, while the neat little 'joys of discovery' I had in BotW are pretty much almost forgotten. In fact, my favorite parts of BotW were the shrines! The parts of the game that were most rigid.
Rant aside, I suppose what I am trying to say is that these latest successes by Nintendo are kinda like 'cashing in' on their decades of linear, rigid, yet fantastic game design. So now they can make a few "Just do whatever" games and they can greatly succeed. But they need to be VERY careful, because you can NOT build or maintain a franchise like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, Starfox, Donkey Kong, etc. etc. etc. off of many games where you 'just do whatever'.
"Cashing in on" has been Nintendo's game design philosophy for a while now, and it's why I switched over to the indie scene. I do, in fact, plan to get Bug Fables, just as if I want an old school style Zelda or Metroid, I'll look indie. And indie's got good creativity too, some of which I've thoroughly enjoyed.
Bug Fables was cool but it didn’t scratch that itch :(( I just went back and played Paper Mario
They aren't brilliant. Odyssey especially sucks to 100%,and is way less engaging than galaxy despite having deeper movement. Because the game is meant for literal babies and you can easily progress by obtaining any moon which are gotten by sneezing on the controller, and they share very repetitive formulas like stack Goomba grow plant break nuts use very limited capture or get it just floating there randomly, the game is full of terrible ubisoft esque filler.
But the games like galaxy let you have freedom while having some very good streamlined focused platforming
I’ve been saying this for a little under a decade, and no one has ever understood me.
A game is not objectively bad just because it’s “linear.”
I like how you describe it. “Definitive” experiences are really what consumers thirst for, not “aimless freedom.” Without a game providing a reason for its existence, there is really no reason for the player to come up with one on their own.
Your thesis is wrong. They can easily maintain franchises like this.
What gives wind waker its identity is not the linear progression system. That was in OoT, too. By the same token, you can easily do the same thing with the BOTW formula.
Hot take.. I hated the breakable weapons in BoTW. I thought that weapons as a reward got worthless after a while and didn't like fighting the Silver enemies because they never yielded a return on what they took to beat them.
I hated botw and this had a lot to do with it. Also the lack of variety, music, item progression, unique bosses, and ‘fun’ sidequests too.
It didn’t even feel like I was playing Zelda most of the time
@@firenze6478 You right, you very very right.
It’s actually the most overblown criticism in gaming history, I can’t imagine how boring the game would be if you breeze through using one powerful weapon.
@@user-rk2xi7iw9k games have had solutions for this without relying on busted durability mechanics since the beginning of open world
@@user-rk2xi7iw9k your response is actually totally dog shit, Did I ask for one all powerful weapon that never broke or did you come up with that as a straw man argument
*Player:* _"I did the thing!"_
*Nintendo:* _"Good for you! ...What? You want a medal or something? Tsk, tsk, tsk..."_
having exploring for the sake of exploring is cool and all but its goes completely against the philosophy of people who wont do anything if there isnt a good reason to
@@GaminGuy_ --like me--
@@GaminGuy_ Yup. I played odessey for 3 hours before becoming completely uninterested in it. Breath of the wild I completed but felt no desire to play beyond the dungeons and castle. They're both the titles I have enjoyed the least of their respective IPs, I can see why people enjoy them but it's just fundamentally unengaging to me.
@@Milkysponge I like both Odyssey and Breath of The Wild. But their problem is that rewards don't feel good because... there's too many of them. In Mario 64 stars felt really good and rewarding to get, they had a self imposed reward and a literal reward. In Odyssey stars are just littered everywhere and don't feel rewarding to get on their own, but instead you kinda just wanted them to get to the next world or next part, in Mario 64 you always wanted to get the stars because they allowed you to go ahead and fight bowser, a necessary 3-time roadblock which structured the game even more. Stars in Mario 64 were tricky, they were challenging, and they had an intuitive total, Moons are littered everywhere in Odyssey and a ton don't even require much effort. But in Mario Odyssey it doesn't feel intuitive to get most of the moons, I like smaller dumb secrets in games, but just make them feel intuitive. Odyssey doesn't even force people to do a ton of things, all you need to do is get the total amount of moons in a world needed to get to the next, sure this allows tons of different ways to play the game. But this makes the player not go out of their comfort zone.
Same issue with BOTW.
@@randomguyontheinternet7940 i got bored of BOTW quickly because all there is, is the 4 beast things and Hyrule castle. after i did that there just wasn't anything else apart from the shrines and a bunch of those are the tests of strength which don't require skill just a lot of high damaging weapons which all break and you're left with nothing and on top of that all you get is one bit of armour or a weapon and a single spirit orb. i didn't like the tests of strength.
I realized at the end that "no paper puns" was the restriction Ceave placed on himself in order to come up with better overall jokes.
Oh but in the end he sort of did with wondering if it was ‘legal’ as in legal paper. Puns are forever whether intentional or not!
@@DarkCrimsonBlade stop reading into it that much, go get some sleep
@@jokerkirby7051 Ah, so you think their argument is paper thin?
@@slucarios I just think it doesn’t have the currency to support the flat basis it’s built on.
Maybe he folded after realising that the jokes would fall flat, so ultimately none made the cut?
Fire Emblem: "*chuckles* I'm in danger"
Fire Emblem has been trash since Shadow Dragon remake on DS, so thats a bit overdue.
@@bearzdlc2172 idk man. New mystery was good imo. Same with echos and three houses.
@@camharkness no
@@bearzdlc2172 well you have your opinions and I have mine.
@@camharkness yours is wrong
18:50 Mark Brown of Game Maker’s Toolkit calls them “locks and keys,” which I think is apt.
"The part of the video that actually is about Paper Mario."
Perfect
"This person is, in my subjective opinion, objectively wrong" absolute fire
It is one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard someone saying!
@@parodynet3004 Thanks for sharing!
@@parodynet3004 I take it you dont hear a lot of stuff?
I want to like this comment, butbit has 69 likes, I can't do this
@@shadejustshade8301 I wonder how many times in my life will I see this same comment.
I also wonder when the funny numbers memes will die, or if they will pull a Rick roll and persist for eternity.
It’s hilarious how Nintendo as a company makes so many different games with so many different concepts that it is mind boggling (which a lot of other game developers should learn about), just to throw that out the window with one of the features that some games are supposed to have. They have a 16 lane highway worth of game concepts, but a 1 way road when it comes to their implementation of stuff that works on other games.
Super Paper Mario is clinically underrated
agreed
Good story, but no reason to replay it, after you experienced it.
I liked the story but the gameplay is very meh
Honestly my favorite game in the series- the gameplay was admittedly tedious at times, but the game is so stuffed with charm and funny characters that it’s impossible to hate imo
@@mimi.sues. bruh, thousand year door tho
“If somebody were to sit down with the goal of getting every moon in Odyssey they would probably have a terrible time”
Me, in the middle of a 100% playthrough: That seems about right
Good luck I did that not fun
Especially the coin grind.....
There are certain bs moons that I can't even begin to try to get because they're just above my skill level, so I'm just going around each kingdom grabbing all the moons I can actually nab. And I'm having a fun time because I made the choice to play that way.
Kinda sucks that Moons and Purple Coins are the only significant collectables (regular coins are feckin everywhere) but I knew what I signed up for and I'm still having an overall good time with Odyssey specifically.
@@christiannorton9400 only moon I couldn’t conceivably get was the 100 jump-rope moon but there’s a glitch to get an infinite score so I kinda lucked out
This is why I pace out most of the games I play with breaks for at least a few weeks every 50 or so hours. Otherwise would be maddening with almost any game. Even the best ones.
Gotta appreciate the fact that we progressed through the video by collecting new information, only to come back to the very beginning in order to use that knowledge and reach a conclusion we weren't able to reach before.
**Nintendo wants to know your location**
like 69 AW YEAH
@@the_neto06 Sorry for ruining it.
Yeah kind of like a metroidvania...
Ace Attorney moment
One big issue with their design philosophy is that, in dropping metroidvania mechanics, they ended up backing up into a way worse system:
Weapon Consumables/Fragility: a system that results in player disempowerment, which has no place outside of horror.
(Note: Skilled developers can make a game challenging without needed to disempower the player.)
In practice, it makes obtaining the weapons unsatisfying and encourages the player to avoid combat, which should be intrinsically fun by design-- so the game is fighting the player back for wanting to have fun, and it tells the player to focus on less fun or unfun alternatives.
Some games train the player to avoid combat for various reasons and facilitates other avenues as a core part of the experience... but this isn't really the case for games like, say, Sticker Star.
It's just bad design.
*_I will die on this hill._*
I mean BotW seems to do well with breakable weapons as there is always more around the corner, and you can also use the most OP weapon ever, big metal crates.
@@bestaround3323
Some people like or tolerate it.
I don't.
BotW is painful to play.
Not difficult or anything like that-- just an agonizing chore.
It was only recently when I started playing it modded on PC that I was able to get into it.
There are many excellent and very enjoyable aspects of BotW (the world, the puzzles, the characters, the lore, et cetera), but there are some small yet major things that really shoot itself in the foot, in my eyes.
The biggest of those issues is the weapon fragility system and how utterly poorly it was implemented in so many ways.
Weapons are consumables with very limited durability, and you can only hold a very limited number of them, even with upgrades from Hestu.
It's The Legend of Zelda: Sticker Star.
The system is at least functional in practice, but that doesn't make it satisfying. Or fun. Or enjoyable. Or good.
Heavily limited carrying capacities and consumable/fragile weapons should stay in survival horror where they belong.
*_I WILL die on this hill!_*
@@Cheerybelle I mean I personally like the system as it encourages me to try different strategies. Plus with how often they drop I don't really worry about them to much. It is a bit more fun abusing the physics system to kill enemies then with weapons anyway. Plus it adds an aspect of inventory management. I understand that you don't like it, but don't say that it is just an awful mechanic.
@@bestaround3323 I mean Botw is one of my favorite games of all time and yet I admit my enjoyment wasn't helped at all by the weapon durability system,
That said I kinda feel like it's a necessary evil, as without it all people would do is horde the strongest weapons instead of trying out the more.. unique approaches to combat
It's not a good or enjoyable system, but I really don't think the game would work without it
Nintendo: You should fight enemies for coins.
Mario: Let's go fight!
Mario later: My stickers are gone!
Nintendo: Buy new ones.
*Mario buys new ones
Mario: My coins are gone!
Nintendo: You should fight enemies for coins.
Mario: :|
A year later, it feels like the exact same thing is still happening with Pokémon Scarlet & Violet - They took the game in a different direction to what it naturally would, causing all sorts of problems when they weren't experienced enough to pull it off.
I feel an easier name for: "metroid like ability growth" would be: "lock & key abillities". Because there's essentially a lock of an obstacle and then there's the key of an item/upgrade
@Darling Vexa Art You do know that pretty much every video game has this? Even the modern ones? This isn't an exclusively Nintendo Thing.
That sounds good, and the lock and key metaphor jives well with the other term I've heard used for these systems in the past, which is "progression gating". Gates have locks after all
I call them progression items
@Darling Vexa Art Yes dude. Not every game need to have a "Lock and Key" involving the abilities and certain areas. But the reverse ALSO applies because not every game needs to have no restrictions where almost everything is optional and there's thousands of different Moon Collectables. Some games like Metroid actively thrive on needing certain abilities to go certain places
Game makers toolkit uses a term like this in there series BossKeys which is based around dismantling and graphing these kinds of lock&key designs in an attempt to discover what makes the difference between a fun and a frustrating Zelda dungeon.
its a real neat series that i recommend to anyone that loves game design.
I also recommend everything else GMTK makes.
Origami king is one of those “great ideas shown in the worst way possible”
Or “i love this game, that’s why i hate it”
I could get behind discouraging level grinding for the sake of making the game fun but this doesn't excuse the convoluted combat system that makes random encounters tedious and unenjoyable.
i feel like that game was literally tailored to me, i never liked that you were forced to do pretty much every battle in the older games to be at a good level to fight bosses and such, origami kings system allows me to enjoy battling in that game whenever i want and since there is no progression rewarded from the battles, i dont have to feel stressed to do them and neither does anyone else.
If you didnt particularly enjoy battling again and again in the older games you were bascially forced to, but if you dont like the battling in origami king you dont really have to battle much at all and you can still enjoy the game.
@@edjh9622 you didn't have to fight every, or even most, battles in the originals at all lol
@@iamresh i fought pretty much every enemy and still struggled a bit in battles. i played it pretty vanilla tho. another problem with that battle system was the badges were broken as hell
@Mineithebear Not to seem rude, but that sounds like a skill problem on your part. If you're fighting basically every enemy and still struggling in combat, you likely haven't learned superguarding or your stat spreads are bad. Also, badges are very powerful, but they're not "broken." (If they were, you wouldn't be struggling in combat, lol)
I like it when games have reward you more directly for playing the game. Make your attack stronger and whatever.
I don’t like grindy skill trees but I do like aesthetic upgrades, like outfits and stuff.
I like upgrades that add abilities necessary to complete the game and optional puzzles to get an aesthetic upgrade or collectible.
I also like OP rewards, like the chaos ring in castlevania aria of sorrow, or the deity mask in majoras mask. Or the red star in mario galaxy if it could be used in levels
Edit: I loved paper Mario but I loathed the combat. Giving him abilities as progress or strength as progress is as arbitrary as playing the game itself. It’s arbitrary that he’s Italian or that he wears red, that princess peach is a princess, that Olivia floats. If it’s more enjoyable, then it should be implemented. Because there was no reward for the fights, I straight up avoided as many as possible.
"A guy called Metroid"
It’s kinda sad that the people who make paper Mario games aren’t allowed to make new characters anymore, I feel bad for them
Damn
Plus, the fact that they can't modify Mario characters, really made the game feel 2-dimensional( Pun intended).
No they actually can, they admited it in an interview. They just choose to ignore all criticisms.
Strange, considering Alpha Dream (rip) kept creating new characters even in the remake of Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story
@@Portersona69420 huh? It’s been said multiple times that Nintendo doesn’t allow the paper Mario team to make any new characters or modify existing ones. Could link a TH-cam video explaining this?
Plot twist: Ceave has been right all along and his name IS Zelda.
Oh
i love rescuing link at the end
The Legend of Link: A Zelda Between Worlds
@@cl4655 The Legend of Link: A Zelda to the Past
@@cl4655 a zelda between links legs WAIT WRONG GAME
Intrinsic motivation is important, but as a game developer I have to say that in development, there is no one right solution. There will always be people who say that something is „bad design“. Extrinsic motivation is also important, maybe a bit less, but still important. It isn’t really possible to make a good game without a little bit of both.
This is actually a very interesting take that I feel holds a lot of water. I never thought of it that way due to how I look at Zelda Games, and how BotW felt like more of a grind with progression systems to manage than the more linear games, in my opinion.
In the "traditional" Zelda games, the puzzles and combat were generally woven together in a way that made me not think of the puzzles as "puzzles" most of the time. Most "puzzles" were too easy to click as being puzzles in my brain, even if thought about in a vacuum. While many things were undoubtedly "puzzles" even to me, I never once thought of the Zelda games as a puzzle "series." Dungeons were, in my opinion, basically a series of combat rooms with buttons to push to open doors that might be tricky to do without defeating the enemies first.
As such, BotW's progression being locked behind puzzles (Shrines, Koroks, etc) felt... punishing. I wanted to explore and fight monsters, and the weapon durability system felt like it was telling me "No, this is a puzzle game, screw off with that." While I got a few upgrades, I just wasn't patient enough for a bunch of the shrines, like those twin shrines that have each other's solution set by default; simple solution, but I didn't have anything handy to take notes with because I was playing in my room, and I really didn't want to go to my office to grab some paper and a pencil or something. As such, to me, BotW felt like far more of a slog and a grind than even some games intended to be grindy.
This is why I didn't even consider the possibility that they were trying to go for the opposite effect. I had written a bunch about "The 3 types of Zelda Players and how BotW appeals to 2 of the 3" and hadn't considered that the whole intent was to NOT punish players like me, by allowing us to fight Calamity Ganon without completion. My attempts typically ended with me running out of weapons since I never got the Master Sword, and didn't know where all the powerful weapons were, or that they'd respawn with the Blood Moon, which is what drove me to seek out more Koroks and Shrines, and getting frustrated with it.
Perhaps Nintendo and I share equal amounts of blame for this; Nintendo for not making it more clear (not just the blood moon thing, but the general idea behind the game design,) and myself for not understanding the intent behind the game design.
At the end of the day, Nintendo is a company, and companies want to make money. Rather than quintuple down on wretched DLC practices, they're instead aiming to sell more games. Appealing to a wider audience is certainly the optimal method to do this. And while I personally dislike this trend since many franchises I once loved were destroyed by attempting to aim for mainstream appeal (resulting in things like simplified stories, which I'm not into since I'm a story snob) it's not something I can fault from a business side of things.
Thanks for opening my eyes to this possibility. I feel your theory, if not hitting the nail on the head, is still hitting the nail one way or another.
Wow good comment. Now I know why the Pokémon games had to die.
@@Kefgoeroe Nintendo mostly has it's hands away from pokemon.
I don't see many drastic changes comparede to 10 years ago.
20:50 That super quick "They stopped making Metroid games". OUCH
As much as I want some of the old systems back, I could survive with just having unique characters back. But all we get are toads.
So if they tossed aside the systems because they were too much like arbitrary rewards, I wonder why they tossed aside the deeper world and character identities?
@@derekw8039
There's been statements about it, where it's been explained that effectively Mario is a brand identity that they need to preserve the image of very tightly so can't do anything "weird" with it. Everything has to be using established characters in standard ways. Which is why everyone is toads.
@@Graknorke I always found that weird. A Toad isn't even a character, they're a species/fantasy race. At least in Pokemon it makes sense that no one nicknames their Pokemon and just refers to them by their species; there are hundreds, even maybe over 1000 by now, so it would make it impossible for fans to remember the difference between the actual designated Pokemon name and the character name. But it's not hard to remember the difference between Toads, Goombas, Koopas, and Boos, come on!
@@Graknorke Even in a world where Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3 challenges this, I'm pretty sure people on the dev team at IntSys have stated that they want to keep the series recognizable in the same vein as with SS and CS, intentionally keeping up the restriction.
Bup
This was a really interesting thesis. And I do believe it holds water.
There's books ("Punished by Rewards" by Alfie Kohn, being the main one) that talk about the value of intrinsic rewards (things that enjoyable for their own sake), as opposed to extrinsic rewards (the mushroom of a stick), that say that when an extrinsic reward is taken away you basically lose all motivation to engage in the activity that preceded it (like when you have collected all of the rewards in a game, so you stop playing it because it is 'complete').
So it would seem Nintendo is pursuing a design philosophy in which their games can be continuously played out of pure simple enjoyment of playing their games (or at least, so would say the theory). And honestly, I find that quite fascinating...
21:45 there is a minor example in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 with field skills, but even in that game your progression mostly caps out around a third of the way through the game, and they feel a lot more like "come back and try again later, see if it works then" than "come back when you get an upgrade that lets you do this"
"One of the items that Zelda picks up in the game series named after him" LMAO
19:00 "In this game the very first thing that our brave hero, called Metroid, has to do is..." Lol
I want (de)Ceave to make more of these jokes
It’s one of the oldest and most overdone jokes about the Zelda series...but it still makes me chuckle every time
@@burnttoast6974 ohh it’s a joke
22:20 "But most importantly, all of this is linked to the baffeling design decisions they made with the paper mario series on 3DS and WiiU" - Talking about the switch exclusive Origami King
RIP Mario and Luigi games. We probably won't get another one after AlphaDream literally died. IT WAS MURDER!
doubly harmed by there being two different mario rpg series. mario & luigi and paper mario
This video is mostly centered on Nintendo's main studios. Otherwise, Ceave's claim that Nintendo hasn't made arbitrary rewards would fall flat. Xenoblade is a massive exception. Hell, XC2 has the dogshit awful system of gachas. That is the definition of a most terrible form of arbitrary reward - just go grind a super boss for one hour then MAYBE get the reward, maybe don't. You'd have never grinded the super boss with driver combos otherwise.
@@QuintaFeira12 Pikmin 3 also added an achievement system in the deluxe version
@@gemstonegynoid7475 All they had to do was make Paper Mario the action platformer RPG and ML the turn based one
@@gemstonegynoid7475 I was a Mario & Luigi fan, and I later got into Paper Mario, now my favorite of the two died and the one that’s left is not to my liking ; _ ;
I think this ties into what seems to be Nintendo's number one internal policy, which explains basically everything about them: Nintendo are such control freaks that Nobody Tells Nintendo What To Do. The best way to make Nintendo not do something is to beg them to do it. Arlo came close to the truth when he said that Nintendo always does what you don't expect. What he didn't realize is that this is very, VERY deliberate.
There’s also the factor that Nintendo are control freaks and Intelligent Systems is not Nintendo, so Nintendo cracked down on Paper Mario being interesting.
Paper Mario TTYD is quite literally my favorite game of all time. It saddens me to think that the series will never be the same again. Absolutely nothing I liked about the original two games is even there anymore.
Ah yes, metroid, the male protagonist.
@B4n B0n already made that comment.
WHEN HE SAID ZELDA I HAD TO DO A DOUBLE TAKE
@@LocalTorchwoodIntern same here.
@B4n B0n well can't argue with that, he is b4n b0n after all
Famous for his inability to crawl
Modern Paper Mario is when you remove an important file from your computer and it doesn't work right anymore
@@neutralnarration1463
Funny enough, the devs should also take their meds, OCD will lead to more rash decisions like that. Absolutist, close minded game philosophy leads to projects with an overly restricted, uniform sense of scope, or lack thereof.
Not everyone under Nintendo internalizes and comprehends the mindset of Odyssey of BOTW, they are games that are accessible in a good way.
I see the paper mario devs wanting to be original, but that means throwing out what did work and overhauling it with an experimental system, the ring system, cards, stickers, etc, that basically turn this IP into Tofu Mario, a tasteless replacement with a bit of salt.
Management should take a few steps back and realize games should be tested more, and tweaked on a case by case basis, I don't mind what they're doing with newer gameplay systems. but pepper mario shows a fundamental misunderstanding of that system.
“or MAGA for shor-“
I died
I looked for this comment XDD
lol
I JUST got that,
This is what I call HIGH QUALITY video. Not just visually but the content is really deep and worth thinking.
I can confirm that in paper jam there is a metroid-like progression system. In the beginning of the game nabbit steals all bros. Attacks and you get them back again throughout the game. You also get beans and overworld abilities to help you go through the world, like the paper drill, paper airplane, and the super hammer
yeah, gameplay-wise, Paper Jam is similar to all its predecessors
AntDude: "B E A N S"
BOTW feels to me like a version of the "Mushroom on a stick" theory: The "Mushroom in a box" theory. This variant gives the players the key to the box alongside a note that says "Open it if you want" and just lets the player do whatever they want to do
But I feel that they still went too far with the ‘no weapon upgrades’. Oh hey, I got this cool shiny new weapon off the enemy in that shrine, I’m gonna use it! *five minutes of combat later* ‘well my cool weapon broke, so I have to go back to using the shitty rusty shiv, which is also about to break, so I’m just gonna not interact with the weapons anymore, I’ll just kill things with bombs. At least they aren’t a limited resource.’
Any combat system that penalizes you for using your cooler weapons, sucks and is terrible. Same with in the newer paper Mario games, Sticker Star and Color Splash, you would begin to actively avoid fights because it just was a waste of time and resources.
huh maybe they should make the contents of the box fun next time then will make it alot more fun to play after opening it the first time
@@matthewtalbot6505 stuff breaking is why I don't touch the gold tools in new Horizons.
At least in BotW potentially deincentivizing combat isn't as bad, given that choosing to avoid combat is still a form of interacting with the gameplay systems, since maneuvering through the environment has its own systems to play around with, as does finding and using tools other than weapons to deal with enemies. ...Avoiding RPG encounters isn't really any kind of gameplay, you're never gaining the opportunity for something else when you run from a fight there, just skipping what the structure of the game makes out to be a core gameplay element.
BotW is just as bad, except they go the opposite direction. It is so devoid of progression, meaningful interaction, or differing rewards that the entire game is optional, repetitive, and ultimately, pointless.
Yes, you can do what you want to do, but it gets old very quickly, and you end up not wanting to do anything much, wandering aimlessly and just being bored, until you get fed up and go for ganon. Think about that: the greatest reason to beat the last boss... is being sick of the game.
You managed to put into words exactly why I don't like Breath of the Wild. I'm a huge fan of RPGs and Metroidvanias, so them removing those elements from one of my favorite series bounced me off very quickly. If the whole game was like the tutorial area, I would have enjoyed it a lot more.
It also explains why the newer Pokemon entries are still enjoyable to me. While they've streamlined a lot of the progression systems (no longer requiring HMs except in remakes, not having as many hard walls to exploration, etc), they kept enough in the game to make leveling up and revisiting older areas exciting. Especially in the newest games, where the progression systems are set on different tracks that you can take at your own pace.
I'll also say, having watched this, that I think I can go back to Breath of the Wild with a new mindset and maybe find some enjoyment. I really want to enjoy it, but I can't do that while still thinking of it as a classic Zelda title.
It’s important to be firm and disciplined but if you refuse to to ever bend, at some point you’re going to break.
The fact that Nintendo is removing "Metroid-style progression" from their games makes me a bit worried about Metroid Prime 4. Like, imagine a Metroid game without that Metroid-style progression...
now i'm starting to think that's why they completely restarted development on it
@@ce7.0 You mean, because they originally made it without that style of progression, and had to change that, or because they originally made it WITH that kind of progression and are now removing it?
@@legoboy7107 Man, I was NOT prepared to worry about that
NooOooOoooOo :(
Well,
Im pretty sure there would have been a riot if they told us they were making a zelda without lots of dungeons, items like the hook shot, and other things that botw is wholly lacking in. But I don’t understand the metroid series at all so you can just ignore me
@@legoboy7107 ...
Anyone else remember Super Paper Mario after hearing the “Mushroom on a stick” thing?
Oh yeah, that was a literal Mimi trap, haha.
I remember lol
The trap in Merlee’s Mansion was literally the first thing that came to my head lmao
ah, thanks for bringing up the memories kid me enjoyed (and found incredibly frightening MIMIMIMIMIMIMIMIMI)
Spp
I think the big difference between bad and good extrinsic systems is if wether they constitute the second or third gameplay loop.
The second gameplay is above the moment to moment gameplay. It's what we are trying to achieve in the next 1-30 minutes.
The third gameplay loop is what we're thinking we'll do in 1-5 hours from now.
Look at a game like dark souls, which is filled with progression systems and soft roadblocks that make you play for what could be called an "arbitrary reason". But it still works because maybe you don't run into the poison filled swamp because you want to, but you'll sure be happier that you did once you're fighting the last boss in the area (an intrinsicly fun thing to do) with your sick ass poison sword.
It's kind of like the difference between climbing a mountain and dancing with some friends both are rewarding activities but in different ways, and games can be many different mixes of those things. I think any rpg benefits from some sense of progression, not because we play to progress but because progressing is the gameplay.
I recently played fallout new vegas and realized that the main focus of the gameplay is not shooting or talking but rather measuring your constantly changing status and progression against the world and acting accordingly, therefore participating in the enviorement.
Progression systems as bad as they can be in some games, are a great pairing in rpg games and it's what makes paper mario special.
Ideas for a ttyd successor
Badges: Some new ones that can apply special side effects to your attacks. Fire flower, Hammer suit, Cape Feather
Upgrade badges: Some badges oughta be upgradeable and have better attack power and new properties too
Challenges: more in depth and difficult than put of 100 trials. And every set of challenges done rewards you something great and different
Upgradeable badges: Some badges like said can be upgraded to newer better badges
Examples:
Quake Hammer to power quake then mega quake
Fire Drive Upgraded to blaze drive then inferno drive
Power bounce jump and smash to mega bounce jump and smash.
And the badges would still cost the same fp and bp. But getting said upgrades would be specific and difficult to gain requirements.
Speaking of...
Three badges in particular to add more to your fight style
Fire flower: Adds fire properties to all of Mario's attacks. Also causing burn to enemies. Some moves that were already fire based can also damage and burn armored and fire enemies.
Hammer suit: Adds hammer properties to attacks. Some moves that were already hammer based can ignore targets' defense
Cape feather: Adds air priority to all attacks, also ups attack of jump moves by 2. Moves that are jump attacks hit multiple enemies at once
Paper aesthetic level: Keep it at the same level as Thousand Year Door. That amount is just right. Not too much or too little.
Animations of characters: smooth and fluid like Thousand Year door and no white borders around the characters.
Fucking genus
Well it actually makes sense, do you know how long it takes to do origami?!
Petition to have Ceave add "Are you ready? Lets do this." To the end of the description in future videos
Yes
Where do I sign up?!
mmm
ooo
Yes
Great discussion about Nintendo's emphasis on intrinsic motivations! They really are a great reference point for teaching CAR principles. One comment about Origami King is that it *does* have power/action gating in the form of the Vellumental gates - BUT the progression is tied to a side character, and more or less acts as an item gate instead since you can't arbitrarily activate Vellumental powers - so I think it stands that there aren't *real* action gates.
An interesting side effect is replayability. If every verb is told in the first few minutes of gameplay, and if you really only enjoy a game intrinsically - it's really easy to go back and play again. Really easy to have your nostalgia glasses be clear. If you liked it then, you'll like it now. Extrinsic motivations are often only good the first time. When you've already gotten all the things, you just won't feel that same rush getting all the things a second time.
I recently went back to BOTW after a long time, and forgot how fun it is to just exist in the world. I'm not taking the same path I did before, because there's no extrinsic reason to - what's fun is what I'm feeling today. It also means anyone can have the experience that their friend had, or they saw online, without having to throw hundreds of hours into some grindey progression mechanics (necessarily). You never need to "wait for the fun".
It means the first "ten minutes" of your 8th playthrough is as peraonal, wonderful, and fun of an experience as your first.
You know, I think I can pinpoint the exact catalyst for Nintendo's shift in design philosophy: Pikmin 2, the Submerged Castle.
In Pikmin 2, the game attempted to relieve the "pressure" that deterred players from playing Pikmin 1by making the majority of the game "optional". In theory, if you do not want to collect a particular treasure, or do a particular dungeon, you do not "have" to. Credits roll at the 10000 point marker and you can do them in whatever order you want once you have all Pikmin types.
In. Theory.
But the game's true end doesn't unlock until you collect all the treasures. The game doesn't really feel finished until you do everything.
And that became a problem when you get to the most sadistic dungeon in the game, the Submerged Castle, a dungeon with a Blue Pikmin restriction, which is already brutal enough, but adds insult to injury with the Waterwraith, an invincible slasher villain of a boss that chases you through the entire dungeon, who can easily massacre your entire team in an instant. That's great if you're looking for an intense challenge, but if you're a kid?
It's a DEEPLY traumatizing experience and many players felt forced to do it because of the way the progression system worked.
I think, after the intense negative emotions that one dungeon invoked, Nintendo made a vow to never let the player feel "forced" to do something they utterly hate like that for the sake of progression again.
They knew the Submerged Castle was "going too far" since the reward for that dungeon is an ability that was removed from Pikmin 1 because the devs thought it was too powerful. So yeah, they knew they were putting kids through the meat grinder and that clearly weighed on them and their design philosophy, which is why now you see them reluctant to do hard progression like that as much.
They forgot about the first Zelda game: everything is optional, but you still want to pick up items, find secrets etc... because it just makes you feel safer. Idk why Nintendo dropped this game design philosophy: "we won't force you towards these items, but skip them at your own risk"
@Darling Vexa Art I think it only really destroyed paper Mario. Mario Odyssey and BOTW are incredible masterpieces, I think Luigi's Mansion 3 is great as well and I know I'm not alone. They even went back to the old formula with Super Mario party, which is really fun and miles better than what they released for the wii, wii u and 3ds. Even after their dumb idea of 'we want people to look at the screen all the time", which proves they can drop an idea that just nobody likes... eventually.
@@zandromex8985 I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on the BOTW front. While it is a fun game, the experience feels really hollow when you return for another playthrough, especially if you hundred percented it. Exploration is a big part of the zelda franchise but, so to is the power fantasy. Dropping one in favor of the other crippled the experience as a whole.
@@riseofevillink To each their own. The game just really clicked with me and I had a great time with it.
@Darling Vexa Art It's a singleplayer game, so it is not really meant to get popularity and mantain it like league, and it's all a matter of taste, I really loved that game.
@Darling Vexa Art You're high af bruh
So they made (almost) everything arbitrary to avoid making anything "arbitrary"?
Basically. How much can we strip a game down to a core game play loop and ignore any other aspect of gaming that's emerged since the 90s?
Also his point about the Moons I found irritating because compared to Any of the other 3D Mario games (besides Galaxy 2) it was incredibly linear. You absolutely could play any LEVEL you wanted in Mario 64. You ciuld skip multiple whole courses and still beat the game at 70 stars.
Since his whole thesis is about avoiding arbitrary rewards, you can say that Yay BotW but you can't discuss Odyssey with the same merits at all.
@@R1ckr011 why not just make everything pong without a scoreboard? Or tetris without a ceiling and you just keep going up?
@@polarknight5376 lawl. Right
@@polarknight5376 I don't get it
I think the best way to explain how Oddessy is a very non-linear game in terms of worlds and not progression is to look at the percentage requirements for each game. Super Mario 64 requires you to collect 70 or 58.3% of its star count to beat the game. This means that if we split up the stars into three brakets of difficulty of 40 stars each then players are required to take on some challenging stars to beat the game. Additionally, there are 15 worlds in Mario 64 with 15 secret stars. Let's assume we have a player who gets every secret star so they need 55 more to open the final door. The average star requirement per world is is 3.7 or 4 stars per world. That means a player is on average expected to collect 4 out of the 7 total stars in every world ( or 4 in 6 if they're unaware of 100 coins or hate those stars with a burning passion). That means on average a player is required to get 57.1-66.6% of the stars in every world assuming they get all 15 castle secret stars. If we assume they get 0, then average changes to 4.6 or 5 stars per world which means you're required to get aproximately 71.4-83.3% of every star in the worlds in Super Mario 64. Now obviously, these averages aren't perfect but they showcase that Super Mario 64 does require a significant portion of its worlds and difficult challenges to be played to achieve the 70 star ammount for the average player.
Sunshine, meanwhile, is way easier to calculate. It's completely linear in terms of required shines (not neccessarily the order you do them in but they require the same shines every playthrough). 41.7% of shines in the game are mandetory when including blue coin shines for the total 120. Additionally, the game forces you to play harder challenges and adapt to the controls to get those shines. So the average player (since there is a glitch to skip to Shine 7 in Gelato Beach which reduces the requirement by a whooping 6 shines) has to play a significant portion of the game and experience some level of challenge due to the linearity. Since each world has 11 shines, each world statistically requires 63.6% of the shines to be collected in each world for the average player.
Galaxy 1 is semi-linear, semi-not. More often than not, the average player gets stars based on when they unlock or difficulty and little else. It's 60 star requirement makes it an easy 50% required star count. Galaxy 2 as you pointed out is fairly linear with only a few different world options in each world and a general 1 star requirement for most. As such, I'm going to ignore the Galaxy games for the most part in this statistical comparision.
So then, what about Oddessy? Yes, the order of the worlds is linear. However, the worlds themselves are extremely linear and always 75% or more optional in terms of content. WAIT WHAT? Yes most of Oddessy's worlds are optional because of its rule that you don't need to collect any specific power moon for each world just a certain amount. With a required 124 out of 880 moons though, it has the lowest percentage required at just 14.1%. What's more when you look at required moon percentages, the highest Kingdoms top at 25% required with the lowest at barely 11.9%. You are only required at most to play a quarter of Oddessy's worlds to progress. Yes, you do need to visit each world in a specific order but the amount of time neccessary to spend in each one is minimal and subject to change. Notice how the averages are significantly different in terms of percentages for each game's average player? Both Mario 64 and Sunshine require the player's to play significant dense portions of their worlds for an average playtime. While 64 has some flexibility in that aspect, you will still end up playing anywhere from aproximately 57-83% of each world's content at the minimum unless you go out of your way to go for a 100% in some to avoid hated levels. Sunshine maintains an average in that same spectrume of about 64% of conent in each world being required to beat the game. Oddessy's worlds though requires the barest minimum possible in the vast majority of them. And that's why Oddessy is so nonlinear despite appearing to be one of the more linear games. It's linear in terms of world-to-world progression but extensively non-linear in world exploration. There's so much content you can skip in that game that both Mario 64 and Sunshine still require you to do. And some of the content in Oddessy is really simple moons that speed up this process even more reducing the time you spend in one world down as well. True, you'll tend to spend more time in one world for a significantly longer portion than Sunshine or 64 but you're doing so with the stipulation that there's far more content to cover beyond the bare min you're doing because most of the game is optional wheras the other two aren't.
There is no "One size fits all" to game development. Different genres, different ideas simply require different philosophies in order to work well. What made Odyssey and BOTW so amazing will not apply to every game, nor should it. Variety is the spice of life, as they say.
That was a weird way of saying that Miyamoto killed it when what became Sticker Star was in development.
You should continue the “finding the worst Mario game” series
Oh I totally forgot about that, but you're right
It’s Sticker Star if you don’t count the strange 90’s games
Sticker Star isn’t that bad of a game tbh. PREPARING TO BE ATTACKED
@@diamondranger8602 *ATTACKS*
All toasters toast toast
Probably the most plausible theory of this whole situation I've heard so far.
I think Arlo was right and summed it up pretty well in just one word:
"Pride" or "Ego".
"Would it be better? Maybe, but I'm going to do what I want to do so I'm not going to be doing that."
"Whoever would go through collecting ever y moon would have a horrible time"
Alpharad: no
Well I mean to be fair, he also thinks SwSh is one of the best pokemon games :/
Petition of Ceave making a video where he ranks his kitchen appliances (Version 2.0)
A major exception to the last part is Ring Fit Adventure, It's got multiple skills, it's got powerups that change the abilities that you get in the story and you have XP.
Yeah, it uses *all* those RPG progression tricks to make people want to continue playing even after they stop enjoying the inherent gameplay (exercise).
24:55 I agree with him, although I was disappointed to find out I could've gotten an A rank mansion at the end of the game without needing to collect as much money or waste as much time
What’s interesting about this is that the no-mushroom-on-no-stick principle was thrown out by the stem in pikmin 4.
"Only two paper mario games have XP"
Super Paper Mario: Am I a joke to you?
Ironically why I enjoyed SPM a lot-- Jumping on enemies is still rewarding
@Darling Vexa Art I honestly think it might be part of the reason Nintendo put the restrictions on original characters in the first place. Look at Francis. There's no way the developers didn't cross some kind of line when designing characters like him.
@@Marshall.R Yeah, as much as I liked the story and characters in SPM, I think the huge shift away from the Mario universe scared Nintendo badly.
@@Doughboy123x Which is odd because that is the main reason the game is liked at all.
didn't expect large feedback
thanks guys
"It's probably best to think about those abilities like the items that Zelda usually finds in one of the dungeons in the game series named after him." :laughs madly:
"Hey look at all those things that make modern games fun! Let's just... Not do that! At all!"
Creave: “the writing was definitely on par with the first two games”
*You mean the first THREE games!! Don’t you dare forget Super Paper Mario!*
Bruh.. Mario RPG was the first game. They didn't even call it Paper Mario in Japan they called it Mario Story 2.
We can't keep accepting worse and worse games and then be all nostalgic for when things were only slightly terrible. This is why the AAA gaming industry is to stagnant. Even Nintendo.
Bruh.. Mario RPG was the first game. They didn't even call it Paper Mario in Japan they called it Mario Story 2.
We can't keep accepting worse and worse games and then be all nostalgic for when things were only slightly terrible. This is why the AAA gaming industry is to stagnant. Even Nintendo.
@@R1ckr011 Bro, what?
Mario RPG isn’t even the first Paper Mario game. The Paper Mario series was heavily influenced by Super Mario RPG, sure, but that doesn’t make Super Mario RPG a Paper Mario game.
And dude, Paper Mario 64 was simply called “Mario Story.” Not “Mario Story 2.”
Super Mario RPG wasn’t called “Mario Story” in Japan, it was just called “Super Mario RPG,” so I don’t understand what the point was for you to bring that up.
And finally, bro. I have no idea what you’re talking about “accepting worse and worse games.”
Are you trying to insinuate that The Origami King was somehow worse the either Color Splash or Sticker Star? Is that what you meant by accepting “worse and worse games?” Because that’s bullshit and you know it.