I knew I forgot to do something: put the link to the survey in the description. UGH. Here it is too: docs.google.com/forms/d/1YucYQqr8IejBXHi48E3QPrhhNghJ1MPnSIV8iDh0-Nk
Max, in context of what's @15:34, you have 310k viewers. How did you singlehandedly catalog the responses from the previous video? Can you give hard numbers for stats? Thanks.
None of my studies brought up material from games but I would often draw arguments and themes from games on essay subjects as my own interpretations and got high marks for it. If I referenced their source I imagine they would get thrown out as I haven't met educators who take video game material seriously. One of my gamer friends is even an educator with a Master's degree in Literature but usually dismisses the value of games and just likes to mash buttons and see shit blow up rather then interact with gameplay systems or meaningful stories in games.
There is a lot of Christianity and Buddhism in the Unbroken circle of Zerthimon its really well written. And the Zerth blade is one of the coolest concepts ever. No wonder the TNO wanted it.
@@ZeranZeran There are many atheist versions of Buddhism. There are even atheist versions of Hinduism (like Carvaka). Christianity is another matter. Technically there have been atheist 'Christians', but they were basically just deists, which is basically just a very watered down theism that largely negates any potential for a religion, or pantheists, which does the same but coming from the other direction.
@@ArawnOfAnnwn I believe that god is just a word for something we can't comprehend, but I think it stands for all livings things in the universe, everything with a conscience, or every organism or creature that will develop one is a part of god. Even plants. Researching the way that Mushrooms comunicate with each other blew my mind, and I've never ingested them for the rercord! I believe there is power both on this earth and beyond it. What is it called when you believe the Universe is just... everyone connected?
@@ZeranZeran Pantheism, the belief that the universe and god are one. Not as conducive to forming a religion, at least if you keep the belief pure rather than adding a bunch of bells and whistles to it, not that many haven't tried. If you want a western philosopher to look up who identified as a pantheist, try Baruch Spinoza (although some have claimed he was more of a panentheist, the belief that god extends beyond the universe as well). Among eastern traditions, you can check out Daoism, Advaita Vedanta or Won Buddhism, though keep in mind that these are all full fledged religions with their own practices and customs despite their pantheistic core belief. Laozi (Daoism) is probably the best of them imo, given his inherently egalitarian philosophy and critique of authority. The channel Philosophy in Motion gives some animated renditions of some of his stories.
Dak'kon is the coolest character in all of gaming "Endure, in enduring grow strong." "In Knowing the teachings of Zerthimon I have become strong." "My blade has changed." Just a few quotes burned into my brain nearly 23 years ago. That's how much he stuck with me. And on a side note Morte is cool also. And the fact this universe wasn't revisited, ie the setting of Planescape, is criminal. So rich in lore and character. Its probably to much for modern gaming to handle
Yeah, iirc, 3rd edition D&D landed around the time, Baldur's gate 1 and Icewind Dale 1 were 2nd Edition AD&D but their sequels came out when 3rd Edition D&D was already out and weren't yet (entirely) 3rd Edition in their rules. A lot of the campaign settings from AD&D were maybe officially abandoned even with the new edition, or just didn't have any official material come out for them yet, so any game studio going ahead to make D&D game would automatically go for the new 3rd edition, which only had Forgotten Realms and/or Greyhawk (my memory is a bit iffy in this regard) available from the get-go. 2nd Edition AD&D had its official life span from 1989 to 2000, basically spanning the entire decade I refer to as the Golden Age of Gaming, where investors and business suits with their assembled stacks of metrics' papers hadn't yet corrupted the game development studios and where soulful yet unprofitable masterpieces like Torment and original IPs rather than sequels of an established brand could still emerge in. So yeah, unfortunate timing. The setting is not too much for modern gaming, I'd say, it's just that the people calling the shots opt for safer, more profitable, options instead... the bastards.
Dak'kon is one of the best mysterious companion in videogames, by my opinion. He is like a classical mentor in monomyth. He also tied with the Nameless One because both of them have identity breakdown and other spoiler thing. And both of them learning from each other to *endure* their torments. Love this game and story paralles.
@@MrSarevok187 yes, i did. It is fake circle about cooperation to Dakkon from Practical Incarnation to make Dakkon's mind more focused on TNO's mission because of his sword to defeat Transcendent One
@@MrSarevok187 it because even Practical Incarnation didnt understand that he created for Dakkon. It is possible that *believe* made these circles work. Also, Focus of Zerthimon is a very good spell
As a massive fan of not just Planescape: Torment, but also Planescape as a whole, I’m super excited to see you creating videos about this amazing setting.
Your video actually motivated me to download and start playing the game (I'm about halfway through). When I encountered O the whole conversation made me feel like he was almost sad looking at our faults, but I believe this was because he understand (and has witnessed) our true potential for betterment. He just felt like an exasperated teacher trying to teach the same lesson to his class for the millionth time. I do agree with his assesment though, on a purely Stoic basis of not stressing out about things outside our control, or even a deeper Buddhist/Advaita take that such events are merely that, a gust of wind, neither good nor bad - or you could even argue that we are as much the wind that destroys the nest as we are the nest, and the wasp, in that there is no real separation between these *things* all ocuring/existing simultaneously and interdependent on one another, or as an undivisable whole. I'd suggest his exasperation with humans and him "wishing/wanting" us to act sentient shows the same level of ignorance of the true nature of things as the wasps being angry at the wind. After all, O defines itself as one part of the divine alphabet, creating a layer of separation between the self and existence, effectively failing to see the bigger picture.
I'm kind of amazed the Sensates and the Signers got so few votes, but I have to admit it *IS* thematically appropriate for the Signers to only get one!
I grew up mostly playing Kotor 1 and 2 and deeply enjoying the philosphical musing in the games, giving them credit for garnering an interest in philosophy and ethics, all from a game. It made me explore things i prb wouldnt hsve and prb was the first steps i took to wanting to become a writer. For that alone, ill be buyinv this game to see if i experience what i did as a kid again. Hopefully this game gains more attention in time. Thanks for your hardwork
@@maxderrat i would say that just as Planescape torment is the most philosophical game ever made, disco elysium is the most introspective game ever made. Love them both to death.
Torment: Tides of Numenera is a "spiritual sequel" to Planescape: Torment, one which was a bit of a disappointment to most, including myself, but still something I highly recommend anyway for everything it actually did well - mostly the worldbuilding. It actually feels like a direct sequel in many ways, just one set far-far-future setting. It also has an encounter with a "Divine Letter" that, if I remember correctly, you can convince to vanish from your plane of existence (don't quote me on that).
The Gith/Zerthimon conflict fascinates me because it's similar to the endgame thematic conflict in one of my favourite science fiction series, Terra Ignota. They're the outpath and inpath, respectively. TI does it in a much more technologically-based way, quite similar to the Foundation series. (TI does it well enough that I see it as a spiritual successor delivering the content I crave.) Two factions take different research paths, wield different kinds of power, and have incompatible grand visions for the future of humanity. They make one person choose between them. There's a situation where at this point you can't de-escalate without complete surrender, and also you've got something you really want on the line and you want that more than a peaceful compromise. A lot of readers are sympathetic to both but do pick a side, and then argue about it with each other in real life. The way I understand and choose to frame this conflict is also, of course, very telling about my factional alignment. :D TI is generally very philosophical but it never occurred to me that this would work for me as a philsophical fight and not a research-funding one. It... apparently does! OTOH, when a smug Ascended shows up in Stargate to tell humans they should only care about spirituality, I'm with Rodney McKay on telling them to get bent.
Regarding the thought about O. I was always an inquisitive guy, but still wanted the generic goals of getting a job, marrying and having kids. But one summer, my cat got fleas. I thought to myself "why would an insect as horrible as this, latch itself on to my beautiful fluffy cat, and hide its eggs and other brethren so deep in his hair, as to make me curing my beloved pet that much harder? Why go through all that pain and suffering? Just to spawn another generation of insects which will do the same?" It might not be directly related, but it was a real eye-opening moment for me to find some bigger purpose in living aside from just reproducing like an insignificant bug. Reminded me a lot of O's comment, which I didn't pay much attention to back when I first played PS:T, but which now strikes me much more than before.
I love your analysis on this game. I began playing this at the beginning of winter, and after some downtime, I finally finished it today. I was inspired to play Torment since the devs of Disco Elysium cited it as one of their main influences, but, man, I think this game has topped it for me in terms of making me *think*. There were so many moments, big and small, where I found myself absolutely absorbed into the conversations, debates, and gradual understanding of the world around TNO. I'd love to see a part 3 to this series! It might stretch back into the talk of factions, but I think the narrative around characters like Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, and even Nordom could be really neat to roll through. Looking forward to the next video!
"Updated my journal" has been my smartphone's SMS notification sound since I had a smartphone, along with the memory cube sound from Xenogears for e-mail notifications.
I think my thoughts on O were 'oh, another writer is "trying" to portrait a god/vampire/immortal as someone bored by mortals.'
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Interesting results on the factions. I only found these videos this week, so didn't answer to that back then. My personal choice is the Sensates, although I don't see them seeking hedonism, but experiences (ofc some might seek hedonistic ones in particular, though I don't see that to be a true sensate way). That's also my personal answer to the Question: every experience one has changes a man, even if just a bit. A stream of even small changes can alter the course of the whole river.
One thing I noticed is that some of the factions are not mutually exclusive. For example, the bleak cabal and the society of sensation are not opposites or result in inconsistency if one were to join them both. Max describes the bleak cabal as a Nietzschean life-affirming philosophy which I think is correct. And what I think of the society of sensation is something akin to Epicureanism. I think it is clear now that one can be an Epicurean and accepts that life is suffering but one still should live and makes the best out of it.
The Sensates believe that one can discover enlightenment through experiencing the world, and seek to do so through their five bodily senses, feeling rather than thinking. They look wholly outward. The Bleak Cabal believe that there's no answers to be found in the world, and the only thing worth doing is understanding yourself through gloomy introspection. They look wholly inward. The two do rather negate one another, and in the setting the two groups are quite hostile to one another, seeing one another as hedonistic wastrels and miserable madmen respectively.
This is great. Due to watching your first video, I've been replaying the original for the first time in 20 years and loving everything about it again. The original Windows 95 CD-ROM version still works pretty well on my Windows 11 machine.
I love the themes of free will and consciousness. Two games on your top 10 list, “The Talos Principle,” (a robot must demonstrate free will to transcend and become “human”) and “Soma.” I was so happy but not surprised to see them on that list and I recommend them to everyone, along with “Swapper,” for containing those themes as well.
Some years later I thought of the Logos as well for O. But it also reminded me of the AUM or OHM in Vedic tradition. All the stories and mental images from this game stuck with me in a way only big name novels did. Like from Yourcenar or Italo calvino. The incredible sad story of Deionarra and how belief in love can torment you, the unbroken circle of zerthimon and its religious post apocalyptic visions it creates. Trias the betrayer, The factions, the way everybody struggles in Sigil, all this in a fantastic setting. Hell even Ignus made me sad. The game has so many secret little details only disco Elysium comes close really. God fucking damn it THIS is the game that needs a remake.
All of this stuff is so wonderfully fascinating to me and I thank you for this series you've made. IRL I'm playing in a planescape-centered DND 5e campaign and my party is on their way to Sigil as of writing this. The ideologies of the factions within are some of the most interesting aspects of the whole setting, and I really wanna dive deep into all of it in-game sometime soon. Right now I'm thinking about which one would be the most likely for my character to join, but there are so many appealing options each for different reasons. It's good to get a primer on all that stuff before we head in. Excellent analysis!
I remember picking this game up on a whim when I was younger, it was on sale as a two pack that included Icewind Dale for like 9 dollars and I remember finding the artwork strangely magnetic, I found this to be true when playing the game as well, so oddly captivating and immersive with such dark and beautiful worldbuilding at every level, this game impacted me in a profound way and I bring it up every chance I get Glad to have found this video, great job!
That breakdown was actually fascinating. That being said, I'm not sure that "Planescape: Torment" got every faction's subtleties all the way right, but then, what video game could? It did a fantastic job. Thank you for putting in so much consideration.
No, thank you for making this. While I'm still not sure that I'd call Xenogears 1st grade math compared to this game, I'm loving learning about this game and all of the ideas and how they function together.
Could you make a video about the house in fata morgana? It's one of the best vn ever made. I'd love for you do a video of some of the characters of that game (Morgana,Michel, Jacopo, Gisele e etc).
With 'O' I always felt it was as he said: 'just one part' of something. His summation of mortal existence misses a point. Like insects, the mortals of the planes act in futility, but it's to prevent becoming aloof. The mortal existance is to sit between an insect and a god and strive for both. I loved this character - I'm writing an audio series based on this game and the episode feature O is one of my favourite. The entire Smoldering Corpse Bar is full of so much philosophy and ideology. Survey filled! I totally believe video games can be used - games like PS:T formulated much of my creative development and became useful for so many aspects of my creative and academic life!
You may not have even realized it, but the image of Christ you chose to compare with Nietzsche at 17:35 was a depiction of Christ from the LDS/Mormon church, which is the only Christian church that teaches a Doctrine that people can progress to become Gods like Christ and Heavenly Father, so it lines up the best with "The Godsmen". So yeah, if you knew that already, good catch, if not, it was just meant to be XD
Brillant video, all the way. As most of your videos are. Nevertheless, although all of your arguments are totally valid, I still have to say that one of your videos which was released some years ago already covered the most philosophical game in my eyes. Still, as you said then, one of the most underrated ones - The Talos Principle. Thanks for your works and keep up!
I've played this game 4 times through since it came out over the years and I still enjoy hearing about it. Thanks for making multiple videos on this. Most people I've met have never played this game.
Thank you for this part two, it’s such a nostalgia trip 🥹 I could replay the game anytime, but don’t want to dive deep there again, after playing it for so many years. But seeing the same experience reemerge for another person is truly amazing and feels like a great revisit.
From what i know the brainsucker from bloodborne is based on the illithids (mind flayers) a common trope from rpg, demon souls also has this enemy archetype but in this case it is literally called the mind flayer.
It's a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It appears in many games, Planescape Torment derives allot of it's systems/monsters/world building from DnD. I have a original boxed copy of Planescape and it even says it on the box. Same for Baldurs Gate for instance.
Age of Empires II really fascinated my young mind and got me super excited to learn more about other cultures, kingdoms, historical battles and figures. I will never forget legends like Saladin, El Cid, and Barbarossa, because I've accompanied them in their adventures vicariously through a video game hundreds of years later. I dont think its entirely historically accurate, but it doesnt claim to be. The way the missions and overall story are delivered, with top notch voice acting and diverse culturally relevant dialect & music, really sticks with you and gives you a sense of how those people expressed themselves and the struggles they experienced. I also loved checking out how the dev team recreated famous capitols and armies within their game, and the artwork/models are beautiful and highly detailed. I could definitely see Age of Empires being introduced to children as a way to excite their curiosity about the past, as it did for me.
I wasn't expecting to hear of objectivism in this video, literally just heard about that concept the other day since Mike Mentzer (a famous bodybuilder/intellectual) was also an objectivist. I'm really not sure what faction I would choose in Planescape, I see a little bit of myself in all the factions I suppose.
I'd love to see a Part 3 focusing on the emotional core of this game. Their is so much tragedy and emotion throughout. The Torment of The Nameless One as he slowly realises the horrors of his past actions and the way his attempts to atone for his initial sins gave way to greater sin and destruction. The scene with Deionarra's soul stone in which you realise your betrayal of her that led to her death was heart breaking.
Great follow-up! As for how I’d reply to O, I’d heed his take on mortals since it echoes my Stoic beliefs (i.e. stop acting like an insect [master of fate who’s too proud to learn] and start acting sentient [in accordance with nature/virtue]). In a world that conditions folks to fear the unknown, one should endeavor to embrace it if they’re to grow as a soul and not be bound to material want (which echoes Epictetus’s thought that the truly rich is the one with few wants).
There's a gigantic, insurmountable gap between "what faction would you ideally join'" and "what faction are you actually in based on your behavior?" The contemporary political parallels are obvious.
And now I just wanna go back and join the Anarchists, at least I think that was their name. Always wondered what was up with them besides wanting to dismantle the other factions.
Absolutely a joy to hear your takes, with every video, especially these last two. It's a bit of an undertaking, but I would love to have your thoughts on "In Sound Mind". There's a lot going on with that one.
Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard the word "perspicacious", I had to look it up to see what it meant. I'm adding that one to my repertoire for sure
14:28 I was wondering where I saw that kind of "exoskeleton thing (keep in mind insects have those)" structure, that symbiose with a human (or humanoid), then I remembered it was the Japanese anime "Parasite" 's character "Migi" that talks to the main character in his dreams like the conscious and the unconscious communicating...
I'm giving this a like and i shall comment more on it when i actually play it. I can't at the moment but i'm so greatful for you making this video and for youtube actually showing it up to me. I love games which make me question everything around me and just overwhelming number of choices being presented to me.
I cannot express my gratitude enough for making these videos! Planescape is one of my favourite games so this philosophical explanations come like beautiful Deionarra music theme to my ears!
I did encountered the letter O and I always remember that part about the game. Two things come to mind from that. The first one is a short story by one of the most brilliant writers who have ever existed, Jorge Luis Borges. The title of the story is “El Aleph. The second one is that one scene from the visual novel “Milk outside a bag of milk outside a bag of milk”.
Nice! Thanks again for all the efforts. I like your point about O's position of immortality. I'd also add that O is a part of the alphabet, though wiser and more insightful than any mortal and even all of mortals combined, O is still a part of the whole. Moreover, if there's a notion of a Divine Alphabet, it implies a notion of a Divine Word (as you mentioned), and maybe a Divine sentence. O's point would there stand in context of other members of the Divine Alphabet.
Never played this game, but love the breakdown in both videos. It makes me want to play it as well. On games in education: I took 'Film as Literature' in high school, where we read books, watched the corresponding films like One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and even watched stuff like Office Space and the Office to learn about storytelling through film. I also took a film history course in Community College where we watched a bunch of movies from different eras; to then discuss, and write papers on them. I say this to say that I believe many video games could and should be embedded in the educational system in the ways cinema has. Not only to be used as tools in teaching concepts and standard subjects, but to also start passing on the history of the medium, and how it has broken ground over the years. I wish to see your goal of games in education become a standard. I can easily see the videos you make and the games featured in them becoming their own lectures, discussions and writing assignments, for such courses. The Metal Gear Solid franchise alone could take up a whole semester 😉.
I think the rationale of Torment is to transcend the factions. In the end, Philosophy is a way to interpret and filter reality, but not reality itself. Only by unmaking the ties, we have laced to others,drowsing them with us, we can take full responsibility of our path and move one on to what is ahead of us. Nameless one tried to get rid of death to gain freedom, out of fear, and got stuck even deeper into the chains of it's own action. Ravel got stuck in the idea of setting the Lady of Pain free, without realizing she was being prisoner of that idea, while the Lady of Pain had always been Free of anything, including worship. The philosophy of freedom was the Labyrinth cage Ravel forged for herself. Dak'on was looking for freedom of his disbelief and in looking for ties to grasp on, prisoner of a philosophy that was not even made of his own but cast by someone else to fit so that he could bne exploited. Fjiul Forked Tongue become prisoner of himself, trying to bind Trias, and Trias got prisoner of it's own actions ending in Curst, greed being both's damnation. Ignus allowed Nameless one Incarnation to bind him bending to his will by allowing him to shape its thoughts and getting damned in the process. Morte got stuck in an existence of regret, which the Nameless one incarnations used on for their own means, caged buy his own aspiration of being freed. What can change the nature of a man? everything can if you believe it probably, and nothing if you don't, and this is the part of the riddle that got Ravel stuck: a the rabbit hole is deeper then it looks. Factions are ties, and bindings, but in the end, unmaking what was done, untie those binds ad resetting existence to the point when it first was meddled with , is the only way to keep the flow of events going and to get rid of the cages that kept the nameless one stuck into a bottomless circle.
I generally agree with O on their thoughts on humanity's self-defeatist behavior. For example, people making laws to prevent homeless people from sleeping in a park instead of simply making it safe to do so and providing more support for them/housing, thus actually solving the core problem. Tho I would argue that insects actually work more closely in harmony than humans do.
Max, about your survey. I think it might even be useful to use games in primary school curriculum to learn basic problem solving skills, be creative with building tools or to start an interest in coding early. Even developing a simple point and click adventure could be a nice writing exercise or making up puzzles. Love your vids man.
"O" was one of my favorite characters in Planescape Torments. But "O" also appears in Torments Tides of Numenera. There is a small quest with "O". This game is not as philosophical as Planescape, but it has good moments.
Thanks for this! All of my other favorite games from that era (Kotor, FF7, Gothic, etc) still have so much new stuff coming out regularly, even remakes and all, but this game... not so much. I'm glad someone's giving PST the attention it deserves.
O is right, we have potential for taking a step back and asses our thoughts and motives, second mind as Pratchett called it, yet we prefer to rely on our instincts too much and act before knowing all necessary facts. And don't get me started on Limbo, once I overdid mushrooms and the memory of needing to materialize the ground before every step is still with me..
@Max Derrat I just want to thank you for all the work you must make for such videos! I really enjoy your reviews, they make me feel less alone cause is never too easy find people to talk with about these arguments. I was wondering if you ever played Who's Lila? and what do you think about it, cause it uses philosophical discussions around a theme that involves the noosphere. Thanks again!
The Harmonium is interesting to me in that their fundamentalism arises from a blind belief in harmony itself, which is kind of the ultimate ideology if you think about it. Fundamentally its almost like the most concise philosophy, one which encapsulates so much and can be so applicative is also the ultimate zealotry in the game.
"Endure, in enduring grow stronger." I heard it when I was a teenager and dealing with a lot; it's helped me contextualize things sometimes. Anyways, Dustmen 4 LYFE. Well. Until this hell is finally over anyways. I'll do my best till then.
There is a song in Polish Hip hop about The hunchbacked angel that has descended to earth and it discusses human existence with the crowd. Similar to your answer to O, humans stand in the argument that the inability of understanding humans derives from not being one. It is like the Impossibility of understanding death in the mind of someone living.
About the "Divine Alphabet", I think we can make a parallel between it and the hebrew exegetic tradition called "Gematria". This tradition consists in assigning numerical value to the letters in the hebrew alphabet, and then counting the numerical value of each letter to find the value of the word as a whole. The twist is: certain relations between the values of the words can show some meaning behind the usual practical use of these words, creating new ways to use them and even new synonyms (we can see that clearly in the Tree of Life in Kabbalah). With that we can say that underlying the use of words there is mathematical precision and an order that guides the way we understand the ideas behind the mere linguistical aspect.
Having never played the game but given what you've presented to us my initial response to O would be that while there is clearly wisdom in what he says given his divine nature and interwoven existence into the fabric of reality, it is an imperfect and incomplete prescription from a fraction of the divine whole. I don't doubt that he meant well and that he knows some of what he is saying but there's many other characters in the alphabet and without consulting with them for consensus I can't take his advice as immutable.
I have an old magazine, reviewing KotOR, from when it came out. The writer loved the game but said ‘Planescape: Torment’ was better. Since then I’ve been intrigued by it, so I’m very happy to see it analysed here. Thank you
The first thing that came to my mind as a connection between the top three is that they all take their respective philosophies, and put a positive twist on it. The Athiests believe in bettering life because if meaning is self-derived, then the world around us is all we get. The Free-league is, just that, free, seeing fault with all other factions, instead of giving up, they push forward with their own individual paths. The believers of The Source believe that life is a test and a search for answers, which is MUCH more positive than many other forms of theism. Like a from of Deific Fatalism, for example.
I encountered o, every single word from his mouth was true And I think the fact that he is a living concept who are affected by collective consciousness(one of planescapes rules basically), I think he can understand pain pretty well
I live life as to making the world a better place for others, whether there's a greater reason or not. I watch the videos because I love to learn and grow my understanding more. If we could, ask you, would you cover all of the notable interactions of the factions between each other- or more about how each faction makes the city whole as it reminds me of the Guilds of Ravnica where I would be pressed to both serve as Boros and Selesnia (Gruul being the other Guild that shares the two not in common influences) Actually, Ravnica as a whole might be an interesting topic to dig a little- even if it's not a video game but more of a table game.
Gonna go ahead and be the third person ever to vote for the mercykillers. They are 11th in a poll with 15 options despite only having 2 votes, the disparity between the top spot and the bottom/middle spots is quite insane.
One of the greatest things playing this game was realizing just how much of pretty much everything terrible going on with your companions is somehow your fault. And they somehow make _you_ feel guilty for it, even though it wasn't _really_ you, it was words on a page about imaginary characters and nonexistent events. There are decisions you can make in this game that feel so rough and blatantly abusive and evil that if you choose them, you legit feel like you've got to go to confessional afterwards. XD
It would be more apt to say that the Brainsuckers from Bloodborn resemble Illithids as illthids as a concept predate bloodborn by quite a few decades. The imagery for illithids was itself (supposedly) borrowed from the cover of the Lovecraftian horror book, The Burrowers Beneath.
Just liked and subscribed. I appreciate your content, and your advocation for gaming in the academic sphere is something I fully support! Survey completed!
I would love to see your thoughts on Torment's spiritual successor Torment: Tides of Numenera, it continues a lot of the lines of thought that P.T started
This game is the Masterpiece of industry, the artistic and educational and so on level of which couldn't be reached and probably won't be in our lifetime, as this obvious observation won't be shared by many.
late to the party, but i've always been extremely fascinated by the Transcendent Order. They, the Athar, or the Godsmen would definitely be the faction that i ascribe to, should i have found myself in sigil.
Hell yeah. More Planescape goodness. Nice~ and I only remember O giving the Nameless One a piece of dark matter or a black hole or something. Can't remember what triggers it, but it was some pretty confusing stuff. Always saw him as that sagelike character that sees human suffering as a natural piece of the pie. And have you played through with Wisdom as your highest stat? Bc there's a ton of great dialogue locked behind havin the NO having high wisdom.
@@Wonzling0815 Ooh yeah... nice.. all that juicy wisdom.. @_@ And time to go look up what that piece of eternity actually did. Ha. Ohh n just found it, was a negative plane token, protects ya from the shadows. Thank god for the RPGShrine. That site has everything.
I knew I forgot to do something: put the link to the survey in the description. UGH. Here it is too: docs.google.com/forms/d/1YucYQqr8IejBXHi48E3QPrhhNghJ1MPnSIV8iDh0-Nk
Max, in context of what's @15:34, you have 310k viewers. How did you singlehandedly catalog the responses from the previous video? Can you give hard numbers for stats? Thanks.
Survey answered. Looking forward to hearing about it!
@@Zanzibawrr i also answered the survey as i typed my previous comment - answering the survey is what made me want to help with stats analysis
Albert Camus will be in the 1st with Bleak Cabal with Nietche or the 2nd with Dustmen with Chopenhauer?
None of my studies brought up material from games but I would often draw arguments and themes from games on essay subjects as my own interpretations and got high marks for it. If I referenced their source I imagine they would get thrown out as I haven't met educators who take video game material seriously. One of my gamer friends is even an educator with a Master's degree in Literature but usually dismisses the value of games and just likes to mash buttons and see shit blow up rather then interact with gameplay systems or meaningful stories in games.
There is a lot of Christianity and Buddhism in the Unbroken circle of Zerthimon its really well written. And the Zerth blade is one of the coolest concepts ever. No wonder the TNO wanted it.
Yeah not many people like the evil religion of Islam
The older I get, the more I see value in both Christianity, and Buddhism. I was once an atheist, and never expected to be here. Thanks, universe :).
@@ZeranZeran There are many atheist versions of Buddhism. There are even atheist versions of Hinduism (like Carvaka). Christianity is another matter. Technically there have been atheist 'Christians', but they were basically just deists, which is basically just a very watered down theism that largely negates any potential for a religion, or pantheists, which does the same but coming from the other direction.
@@ArawnOfAnnwn I believe that god is just a word for something we can't comprehend, but I think it stands for all livings things in the universe, everything with a conscience, or every organism or creature that will develop one is a part of god. Even plants. Researching the way that Mushrooms comunicate with each other blew my mind, and I've never ingested them for the rercord! I believe there is power both on this earth and beyond it. What is it called when you believe the Universe is just... everyone connected?
@@ZeranZeran Pantheism, the belief that the universe and god are one. Not as conducive to forming a religion, at least if you keep the belief pure rather than adding a bunch of bells and whistles to it, not that many haven't tried. If you want a western philosopher to look up who identified as a pantheist, try Baruch Spinoza (although some have claimed he was more of a panentheist, the belief that god extends beyond the universe as well). Among eastern traditions, you can check out Daoism, Advaita Vedanta or Won Buddhism, though keep in mind that these are all full fledged religions with their own practices and customs despite their pantheistic core belief. Laozi (Daoism) is probably the best of them imo, given his inherently egalitarian philosophy and critique of authority. The channel Philosophy in Motion gives some animated renditions of some of his stories.
Dak'kon is the coolest character in all of gaming
"Endure, in enduring grow strong."
"In Knowing the teachings of Zerthimon I have become strong."
"My blade has changed."
Just a few quotes burned into my brain nearly 23 years ago. That's how much he stuck with me.
And on a side note Morte is cool also.
And the fact this universe wasn't revisited, ie the setting of Planescape, is criminal. So rich in lore and character. Its probably to much for modern gaming to handle
Yeah, iirc, 3rd edition D&D landed around the time, Baldur's gate 1 and Icewind Dale 1 were 2nd Edition AD&D but their sequels came out when 3rd Edition D&D was already out and weren't yet (entirely) 3rd Edition in their rules. A lot of the campaign settings from AD&D were maybe officially abandoned even with the new edition, or just didn't have any official material come out for them yet, so any game studio going ahead to make D&D game would automatically go for the new 3rd edition, which only had Forgotten Realms and/or Greyhawk (my memory is a bit iffy in this regard) available from the get-go. 2nd Edition AD&D had its official life span from 1989 to 2000, basically spanning the entire decade I refer to as the Golden Age of Gaming, where investors and business suits with their assembled stacks of metrics' papers hadn't yet corrupted the game development studios and where soulful yet unprofitable masterpieces like Torment and original IPs rather than sequels of an established brand could still emerge in. So yeah, unfortunate timing. The setting is not too much for modern gaming, I'd say, it's just that the people calling the shots opt for safer, more profitable, options instead... the bastards.
Dak'kon is one of the best mysterious companion in videogames, by my opinion. He is like a classical mentor in monomyth. He also tied with the Nameless One because both of them have identity breakdown and other spoiler thing. And both of them learning from each other to *endure* their torments. Love this game and story paralles.
have you ever unlocked the hidden circle ?
@@MrSarevok187 yes, i did. It is fake circle about cooperation to Dakkon from Practical Incarnation to make Dakkon's mind more focused on TNO's mission because of his sword to defeat Transcendent One
@@gambit_elstar there are 2 hidden ones and you get some nice spells also
@@MrSarevok187 it because even Practical Incarnation didnt understand that he created for Dakkon. It is possible that *believe* made these circles work. Also, Focus of Zerthimon is a very good spell
@@gambit_elstar the spells that i have in memories was balance in all things and projectile of patience
As a massive fan of not just Planescape: Torment, but also Planescape as a whole, I’m super excited to see you creating videos about this amazing setting.
Your video actually motivated me to download and start playing the game (I'm about halfway through). When I encountered O the whole conversation made me feel like he was almost sad looking at our faults, but I believe this was because he understand (and has witnessed) our true potential for betterment. He just felt like an exasperated teacher trying to teach the same lesson to his class for the millionth time. I do agree with his assesment though, on a purely Stoic basis of not stressing out about things outside our control, or even a deeper Buddhist/Advaita take that such events are merely that, a gust of wind, neither good nor bad - or you could even argue that we are as much the wind that destroys the nest as we are the nest, and the wasp, in that there is no real separation between these *things* all ocuring/existing simultaneously and interdependent on one another, or as an undivisable whole. I'd suggest his exasperation with humans and him "wishing/wanting" us to act sentient shows the same level of ignorance of the true nature of things as the wasps being angry at the wind. After all, O defines itself as one part of the divine alphabet, creating a layer of separation between the self and existence, effectively failing to see the bigger picture.
I would also be interested in discussing all flavors of "Torment" each of the companion characters represents as well as the MC
I'm kind of amazed the Sensates and the Signers got so few votes, but I have to admit it *IS* thematically appropriate for the Signers to only get one!
Loved part 02. If there is a part 03, please consider Ravel, Fall-from-Grace and Deinonarra.
Amazing work.
I grew up mostly playing Kotor 1 and 2 and deeply enjoying the philosphical musing in the games, giving them credit for garnering an interest in philosophy and ethics, all from a game. It made me explore things i prb wouldnt hsve and prb was the first steps i took to wanting to become a writer. For that alone, ill be buyinv this game to see if i experience what i did as a kid again. Hopefully this game gains more attention in time. Thanks for your hardwork
Glad to see a Part 2! Would also love to see your thoughts on Disco Elysium!
Omg I would love to see this too!
I promise that is coming. Stay tuned.
@@maxderrat i would say that just as Planescape torment is the most philosophical game ever made, disco elysium is the most introspective game ever made. Love them both to death.
@@Zanzibawrr Introspective and painful for our protag. haha
Agreed and also hopefully Norco another philosphical adventure game Norco.
Torment: Tides of Numenera is a "spiritual sequel" to Planescape: Torment, one which was a bit of a disappointment to most, including myself, but still something I highly recommend anyway for everything it actually did well - mostly the worldbuilding. It actually feels like a direct sequel in many ways, just one set far-far-future setting. It also has an encounter with a "Divine Letter" that, if I remember correctly, you can convince to vanish from your plane of existence (don't quote me on that).
The Gith/Zerthimon conflict fascinates me because it's similar to the endgame thematic conflict in one of my favourite science fiction series, Terra Ignota. They're the outpath and inpath, respectively. TI does it in a much more technologically-based way, quite similar to the Foundation series. (TI does it well enough that I see it as a spiritual successor delivering the content I crave.) Two factions take different research paths, wield different kinds of power, and have incompatible grand visions for the future of humanity. They make one person choose between them. There's a situation where at this point you can't de-escalate without complete surrender, and also you've got something you really want on the line and you want that more than a peaceful compromise. A lot of readers are sympathetic to both but do pick a side, and then argue about it with each other in real life.
The way I understand and choose to frame this conflict is also, of course, very telling about my factional alignment. :D
TI is generally very philosophical but it never occurred to me that this would work for me as a philsophical fight and not a research-funding one. It... apparently does!
OTOH, when a smug Ascended shows up in Stargate to tell humans they should only care about spirituality, I'm with Rodney McKay on telling them to get bent.
Endure. In enduring grow strong.
This phrase keeps popping in my mind ever since I first spoke to the old gythzerai in that bar...
So catchy
Regarding the thought about O. I was always an inquisitive guy, but still wanted the generic goals of getting a job, marrying and having kids. But one summer, my cat got fleas. I thought to myself "why would an insect as horrible as this, latch itself on to my beautiful fluffy cat, and hide its eggs and other brethren so deep in his hair, as to make me curing my beloved pet that much harder? Why go through all that pain and suffering? Just to spawn another generation of insects which will do the same?" It might not be directly related, but it was a real eye-opening moment for me to find some bigger purpose in living aside from just reproducing like an insignificant bug. Reminded me a lot of O's comment, which I didn't pay much attention to back when I first played PS:T, but which now strikes me much more than before.
I love your analysis on this game. I began playing this at the beginning of winter, and after some downtime, I finally finished it today. I was inspired to play Torment since the devs of Disco Elysium cited it as one of their main influences, but, man, I think this game has topped it for me in terms of making me *think*. There were so many moments, big and small, where I found myself absolutely absorbed into the conversations, debates, and gradual understanding of the world around TNO.
I'd love to see a part 3 to this series! It might stretch back into the talk of factions, but I think the narrative around characters like Ravel, Fall-From-Grace, and even Nordom could be really neat to roll through. Looking forward to the next video!
"Updated my journal" has been my smartphone's SMS notification sound since I had a smartphone, along with the memory cube sound from Xenogears for e-mail notifications.
"Alright". 😐
I think my thoughts on O were 'oh, another writer is "trying" to portrait a god/vampire/immortal as someone bored by mortals.'
Interesting results on the factions. I only found these videos this week, so didn't answer to that back then. My personal choice is the Sensates, although I don't see them seeking hedonism, but experiences (ofc some might seek hedonistic ones in particular, though I don't see that to be a true sensate way).
That's also my personal answer to the Question: every experience one has changes a man, even if just a bit. A stream of even small changes can alter the course of the whole river.
One thing I noticed is that some of the factions are not mutually exclusive. For example, the bleak cabal and the society of sensation are not opposites or result in inconsistency if one were to join them both. Max describes the bleak cabal as a Nietzschean life-affirming philosophy which I think is correct. And what I think of the society of sensation is something akin to Epicureanism. I think it is clear now that one can be an Epicurean and accepts that life is suffering but one still should live and makes the best out of it.
The Sensates believe that one can discover enlightenment through experiencing the world, and seek to do so through their five bodily senses, feeling rather than thinking. They look wholly outward. The Bleak Cabal believe that there's no answers to be found in the world, and the only thing worth doing is understanding yourself through gloomy introspection. They look wholly inward. The two do rather negate one another, and in the setting the two groups are quite hostile to one another, seeing one another as hedonistic wastrels and miserable madmen respectively.
My hungry ass could not handle another Planescape: Torment video.
Keep up the great work. Wish I wasn't a completely broke college student or I would suppport your patreon because I love your analyzes.
This is great. Due to watching your first video, I've been replaying the original for the first time in 20 years and loving everything about it again. The original Windows 95 CD-ROM version still works pretty well on my Windows 11 machine.
Looking forward for a part 3. Just discovered ur channel from the first part and so far I'm loving all the philosophical discussions
I love the themes of free will and consciousness. Two games on your top 10 list, “The Talos Principle,” (a robot must demonstrate free will to transcend and become “human”) and “Soma.” I was so happy but not surprised to see them on that list and I recommend them to everyone, along with “Swapper,” for containing those themes as well.
I was 15 when the game came out and the conversation with O blew my mind.
Some years later I thought of the Logos as well for O. But it also reminded me of the AUM or OHM in Vedic tradition. All the stories and mental images from this game stuck with me in a way only big name novels did. Like from Yourcenar or Italo calvino. The incredible sad story of Deionarra and how belief in love can torment you, the unbroken circle of zerthimon and its religious post apocalyptic visions it creates. Trias the betrayer, The factions, the way everybody struggles in Sigil, all this in a fantastic setting. Hell even Ignus made me sad. The game has so many secret little details only disco Elysium comes close really. God fucking damn it THIS is the game that needs a remake.
All of this stuff is so wonderfully fascinating to me and I thank you for this series you've made. IRL I'm playing in a planescape-centered DND 5e campaign and my party is on their way to Sigil as of writing this. The ideologies of the factions within are some of the most interesting aspects of the whole setting, and I really wanna dive deep into all of it in-game sometime soon. Right now I'm thinking about which one would be the most likely for my character to join, but there are so many appealing options each for different reasons. It's good to get a primer on all that stuff before we head in. Excellent analysis!
oh man, this is top quality stuff. so glad you got your hands on Planescape
also,
"Ignus wishes to BUUURN"
YES! Part 2! I'm doing a marathon with your videos and I have learned a lot about psychology and philosophy!
not sure if intentional, but it’s philosophy
@@ecxstasy347 Thank you, it was a mistake 😅
@@diegocraigdallie 😁👍
@@ecxstasy347 How did he write it?
Favorite philosophical YTer doing a SECOND video on my favorite game?
Not sure I am worthy of such, but I will accept it with gratitude!
I remember picking this game up on a whim when I was younger, it was on sale as a two pack that included Icewind Dale for like 9 dollars and I remember finding the artwork strangely magnetic, I found this to be true when playing the game as well, so oddly captivating and immersive with such dark and beautiful worldbuilding at every level, this game impacted me in a profound way and I bring it up every chance I get
Glad to have found this video, great job!
Thanks the gods and none of them for getting this series up in the air!
That breakdown was actually fascinating. That being said, I'm not sure that "Planescape: Torment" got every faction's subtleties all the way right, but then, what video game could? It did a fantastic job. Thank you for putting in so much consideration.
No, thank you for making this. While I'm still not sure that I'd call Xenogears 1st grade math compared to this game, I'm loving learning about this game and all of the ideas and how they function together.
Would happily watch part3, especially fall-from-grace.
Could you make a video about the house in fata morgana? It's one of the best vn ever made. I'd love for you do a video of some of the characters of that game (Morgana,Michel, Jacopo, Gisele e etc).
With 'O' I always felt it was as he said: 'just one part' of something. His summation of mortal existence misses a point. Like insects, the mortals of the planes act in futility, but it's to prevent becoming aloof. The mortal existance is to sit between an insect and a god and strive for both.
I loved this character - I'm writing an audio series based on this game and the episode feature O is one of my favourite. The entire Smoldering Corpse Bar is full of so much philosophy and ideology.
Survey filled! I totally believe video games can be used - games like PS:T formulated much of my creative development and became useful for so many aspects of my creative and academic life!
You may not have even realized it, but the image of Christ you chose to compare with Nietzsche at 17:35 was a depiction of Christ from the LDS/Mormon church, which is the only Christian church that teaches a Doctrine that people can progress to become Gods like Christ and Heavenly Father, so it lines up the best with "The Godsmen". So yeah, if you knew that already, good catch, if not, it was just meant to be XD
Brillant video, all the way. As most of your videos are. Nevertheless, although all of your arguments are totally valid, I still have to say that one of your videos which was released some years ago already covered the most philosophical game in my eyes. Still, as you said then, one of the most underrated ones - The Talos Principle. Thanks for your works and keep up!
I've played this game 4 times through since it came out over the years and I still enjoy hearing about it. Thanks for making multiple videos on this. Most people I've met have never played this game.
Thank you for this part two, it’s such a nostalgia trip 🥹
I could replay the game anytime, but don’t want to dive deep there again, after playing it for so many years.
But seeing the same experience reemerge for another person is truly amazing and feels like a great revisit.
God i love this game so much. My all time favorite game in fact.
From what i know the brainsucker from bloodborne is based on the illithids (mind flayers) a common trope from rpg, demon souls also has this enemy archetype but in this case it is literally called the mind flayer.
It's a monster from Dungeons and Dragons. It appears in many games, Planescape Torment derives allot of it's systems/monsters/world building from DnD. I have a original boxed copy of Planescape and it even says it on the box. Same for Baldurs Gate for instance.
I am all in on this channel growing into a n actual course of psychology, either inspired by gaming or other media. Keep going Max!
Age of Empires II really fascinated my young mind and got me super excited to learn more about other cultures, kingdoms, historical battles and figures. I will never forget legends like Saladin, El Cid, and Barbarossa, because I've accompanied them in their adventures vicariously through a video game hundreds of years later. I dont think its entirely historically accurate, but it doesnt claim to be. The way the missions and overall story are delivered, with top notch voice acting and diverse culturally relevant dialect & music, really sticks with you and gives you a sense of how those people expressed themselves and the struggles they experienced. I also loved checking out how the dev team recreated famous capitols and armies within their game, and the artwork/models are beautiful and highly detailed.
I could definitely see Age of Empires being introduced to children as a way to excite their curiosity about the past, as it did for me.
I wasn't expecting to hear of objectivism in this video, literally just heard about that concept the other day since Mike Mentzer (a famous bodybuilder/intellectual) was also an objectivist. I'm really not sure what faction I would choose in Planescape, I see a little bit of myself in all the factions I suppose.
Interestingly, Randian objectivism seems to only be taken seriously in the US :)
I'd love to see a Part 3 focusing on the emotional core of this game. Their is so much tragedy and emotion throughout. The Torment of The Nameless One as he slowly realises the horrors of his past actions and the way his attempts to atone for his initial sins gave way to greater sin and destruction.
The scene with Deionarra's soul stone in which you realise your betrayal of her that led to her death was heart breaking.
Great follow-up!
As for how I’d reply to O, I’d heed his take on mortals since it echoes my Stoic beliefs (i.e. stop acting like an insect [master of fate who’s too proud to learn] and start acting sentient [in accordance with nature/virtue]).
In a world that conditions folks to fear the unknown, one should endeavor to embrace it if they’re to grow as a soul and not be bound to material want (which echoes Epictetus’s thought that the truly rich is the one with few wants).
There's a gigantic, insurmountable gap between "what faction would you ideally join'" and "what faction are you actually in based on your behavior?" The contemporary political parallels are obvious.
And now I just wanna go back and join the Anarchists, at least I think that was their name. Always wondered what was up with them besides wanting to dismantle the other factions.
Absolutely a joy to hear your takes, with every video, especially these last two. It's a bit of an undertaking, but I would love to have your thoughts on "In Sound Mind". There's a lot going on with that one.
Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard the word "perspicacious", I had to look it up to see what it meant. I'm adding that one to my repertoire for sure
14:28 I was wondering where I saw that kind of "exoskeleton thing (keep in mind insects have those)" structure, that symbiose with a human (or humanoid),
then I remembered it was the Japanese anime "Parasite" 's character "Migi" that talks to the main character in his dreams like the conscious and the unconscious communicating...
I'm giving this a like and i shall comment more on it when i actually play it. I can't at the moment but i'm so greatful for you making this video and for youtube actually showing it up to me. I love games which make me question everything around me and just overwhelming number of choices being presented to me.
I cannot express my gratitude enough for making these videos! Planescape is one of my favourite games so this philosophical explanations come like beautiful Deionarra music theme to my ears!
Mind Flayers have been around for so long in D&D.
I did encountered the letter O and I always remember that part about the game. Two things come to mind from that. The first one is a short story by one of the most brilliant writers who have ever existed, Jorge Luis Borges. The title of the story is “El Aleph. The second one is that one scene from the visual novel “Milk outside a bag of milk outside a bag of milk”.
Nice! Thanks again for all the efforts.
I like your point about O's position of immortality. I'd also add that O is a part of the alphabet, though wiser and more insightful than any mortal and even all of mortals combined, O is still a part of the whole. Moreover, if there's a notion of a Divine Alphabet, it implies a notion of a Divine Word (as you mentioned), and maybe a Divine sentence. O's point would there stand in context of other members of the Divine Alphabet.
perspicacious is the word of the day. Had to look that one up not gonna lie. Love you and the work that you do. Stay Yellow brother!
20:39 - "Pound of flesh, and yeah, I'm still kickin'
Solipsism to spare my own stupid
Fears because the past and future scare me"
Yeah Illithids are very Cthulhu-esque.
Overlord has one called Tabula Smaragdina called a "Brain Eater"
I never played the game but what an amazing observation.
Never played this game, but love the breakdown in both videos. It makes me want to play it as well.
On games in education:
I took 'Film as Literature' in high school, where we read books, watched the corresponding films like One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and even watched stuff like Office Space and the Office to learn about storytelling through film. I also took a film history course in Community College where we watched a bunch of movies from different eras; to then discuss, and write papers on them.
I say this to say that I believe many video games could and should be embedded in the educational system in the ways cinema has. Not only to be used as tools in teaching concepts and standard subjects, but to also start passing on the history of the medium, and how it has broken ground over the years. I wish to see your goal of games in education become a standard. I can easily see the videos you make and the games featured in them becoming their own lectures, discussions and writing assignments, for such courses. The Metal Gear Solid franchise alone could take up a whole semester 😉.
I think the rationale of Torment is to transcend the factions. In the end, Philosophy is a way to interpret and filter reality, but not reality itself. Only by unmaking the ties, we have laced to others,drowsing them with us, we can take full responsibility of our path and move one on to what is ahead of us.
Nameless one tried to get rid of death to gain freedom, out of fear, and got stuck even deeper into the chains of it's own action.
Ravel got stuck in the idea of setting the Lady of Pain free, without realizing she was being prisoner of that idea, while the Lady of Pain had always been Free of anything, including worship. The philosophy of freedom was the Labyrinth cage Ravel forged for herself.
Dak'on was looking for freedom of his disbelief and in looking for ties to grasp on, prisoner of a philosophy that was not even made of his own but cast by someone else to fit so that he could bne exploited.
Fjiul Forked Tongue become prisoner of himself, trying to bind Trias, and Trias got prisoner of it's own actions ending in Curst, greed being both's damnation.
Ignus allowed Nameless one Incarnation to bind him bending to his will by allowing him to shape its thoughts and getting damned in the process.
Morte got stuck in an existence of regret, which the Nameless one incarnations used on for their own means, caged buy his own aspiration of being freed.
What can change the nature of a man? everything can if you believe it probably, and nothing if you don't, and this is the part of the riddle that got Ravel stuck: a the rabbit hole is deeper then it looks.
Factions are ties, and bindings, but in the end, unmaking what was done, untie those binds ad resetting existence to the point when it first was meddled with , is the only way to keep the flow of events going and to get rid of the cages that kept the nameless one stuck into a bottomless circle.
I never heard of this game but ended up watching both parts. I'm going to have to play it.
I generally agree with O on their thoughts on humanity's self-defeatist behavior. For example, people making laws to prevent homeless people from sleeping in a park instead of simply making it safe to do so and providing more support for them/housing, thus actually solving the core problem. Tho I would argue that insects actually work more closely in harmony than humans do.
Max, about your survey. I think it might even be useful to use games in primary school curriculum to learn basic problem solving skills, be creative with building tools or to start an interest in coding early. Even developing a simple point and click adventure could be a nice writing exercise or making up puzzles. Love your vids man.
Surprisingly, that mercy killers bio had me interested in them lol. I find myself wanting to know more.
"O" was one of my favorite characters in Planescape Torments. But "O" also appears in Torments Tides of Numenera. There is a small quest with "O". This game is not as philosophical as Planescape, but it has good moments.
Thanks for this! All of my other favorite games from that era (Kotor, FF7, Gothic, etc) still have so much new stuff coming out regularly, even remakes and all, but this game... not so much. I'm glad someone's giving PST the attention it deserves.
Sounds like your O encounter gave you +1 wisdom in real life just as it does TNO in the game.
O is right, we have potential for taking a step back and asses our thoughts and motives, second mind as Pratchett called it, yet we prefer to rely on our instincts too much and act before knowing all necessary facts. And don't get me started on Limbo, once I overdid mushrooms and the memory of needing to materialize the ground before every step is still with me..
@Max Derrat I just want to thank you for all the work you must make for such videos! I really enjoy your reviews, they make me feel less alone cause is never too easy find people to talk with about these arguments. I was wondering if you ever played Who's Lila? and what do you think about it, cause it uses philosophical discussions around a theme that involves the noosphere. Thanks again!
I'd be a Dustman or in the Fraternity of Order. Those are the sections I played most during Planescape campaigns.
The Harmonium is interesting to me in that their fundamentalism arises from a blind belief in harmony itself, which is kind of the ultimate ideology if you think about it. Fundamentally its almost like the most concise philosophy, one which encapsulates so much and can be so applicative is also the ultimate zealotry in the game.
"Endure, in enduring grow stronger."
I heard it when I was a teenager and dealing with a lot; it's helped me contextualize things sometimes.
Anyways, Dustmen 4 LYFE. Well. Until this hell is finally over anyways. I'll do my best till then.
There is a song in Polish Hip hop about The hunchbacked angel that has descended to earth and it discusses human existence with the crowd. Similar to your answer to O, humans stand in the argument that the inability of understanding humans derives from not being one. It is like the Impossibility of understanding death in the mind of someone living.
The idea of an immortal being telling mortals to stop lashing out at each other and that invoking a sense of violent rejection is hilarious
About the "Divine Alphabet", I think we can make a parallel between it and the hebrew exegetic tradition called "Gematria". This tradition consists in assigning numerical value to the letters in the hebrew alphabet, and then counting the numerical value of each letter to find the value of the word as a whole.
The twist is: certain relations between the values of the words can show some meaning behind the usual practical use of these words, creating new ways to use them and even new synonyms (we can see that clearly in the Tree of Life in Kabbalah). With that we can say that underlying the use of words there is mathematical precision and an order that guides the way we understand the ideas behind the mere linguistical aspect.
Having never played the game but given what you've presented to us my initial response to O would be that while there is clearly wisdom in what he says given his divine nature and interwoven existence into the fabric of reality, it is an imperfect and incomplete prescription from a fraction of the divine whole. I don't doubt that he meant well and that he knows some of what he is saying but there's many other characters in the alphabet and without consulting with them for consensus I can't take his advice as immutable.
I have an old magazine, reviewing KotOR, from when it came out. The writer loved the game but said ‘Planescape: Torment’ was better. Since then I’ve been intrigued by it, so I’m very happy to see it analysed here. Thank you
So glad your making videos on planescape!
The first thing that came to my mind as a connection between the top three is that they all take their respective philosophies, and put a positive twist on it.
The Athiests believe in bettering life because if meaning is self-derived, then the world around us is all we get.
The Free-league is, just that, free, seeing fault with all other factions, instead of giving up, they push forward with their own individual paths.
The believers of The Source believe that life is a test and a search for answers, which is MUCH more positive than many other forms of theism. Like a from of Deific Fatalism, for example.
I encountered o, every single word from his mouth was true
And I think the fact that he is a living concept who are affected by collective consciousness(one of planescapes rules basically), I think he can understand pain pretty well
Holy Smokes, I had no idea that the lore in BG3 was based on established stuff that is also in Planescape Torment!
I live life as to making the world a better place for others, whether there's a greater reason or not. I watch the videos because I love to learn and grow my understanding more.
If we could, ask you, would you cover all of the notable interactions of the factions between each other- or more about how each faction makes the city whole as it reminds me of the Guilds of Ravnica where I would be pressed to both serve as Boros and Selesnia (Gruul being the other Guild that shares the two not in common influences) Actually, Ravnica as a whole might be an interesting topic to dig a little- even if it's not a video game but more of a table game.
Gonna go ahead and be the third person ever to vote for the mercykillers. They are 11th in a poll with 15 options despite only having 2 votes, the disparity between the top spot and the bottom/middle spots is quite insane.
One of the greatest things playing this game was realizing just how much of pretty much everything terrible going on with your companions is somehow your fault. And they somehow make _you_ feel guilty for it, even though it wasn't _really_ you, it was words on a page about imaginary characters and nonexistent events. There are decisions you can make in this game that feel so rough and blatantly abusive and evil that if you choose them, you legit feel like you've got to go to confessional afterwards. XD
It would be more apt to say that the Brainsuckers from Bloodborn resemble Illithids as illthids as a concept predate bloodborn by quite a few decades. The imagery for illithids was itself (supposedly) borrowed from the cover of the Lovecraftian horror book, The Burrowers Beneath.
Just liked and subscribed. I appreciate your content, and your advocation for gaming in the academic sphere is something I fully support! Survey completed!
I've met "O" recently. Just thought he was full of sh*t saying that my simpleton mind couldn't even grasp his existence lol.
I would love to see your thoughts on Torment's spiritual successor Torment: Tides of Numenera, it continues a lot of the lines of thought that P.T started
This game is the Masterpiece of industry, the artistic and educational and so on level of which couldn't be reached and probably won't be in our lifetime, as this obvious observation won't be shared by many.
Another banger max!! , btw I don't see the link you mentioned in the video ( for the survey) .
I'd be interested to hear your take on the philosophy of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. It's the most philosophical science fiction game ever made.
late to the party, but i've always been extremely fascinated by the Transcendent Order. They, the Athar, or the Godsmen would definitely be the faction that i ascribe to, should i have found myself in sigil.
Your first video was fantastic, this one is equally as fantrastic.
Hell yeah. More Planescape goodness. Nice~ and I only remember O giving the Nameless One a piece of dark matter or a black hole or something. Can't remember what triggers it, but it was some pretty confusing stuff. Always saw him as that sagelike character that sees human suffering as a natural piece of the pie.
And have you played through with Wisdom as your highest stat? Bc there's a ton of great dialogue locked behind havin the NO having high wisdom.
Yep, my encounter with O ended with him teaching me a tiny bit of eternity, vanishing and giving me a +1 to WIS :)
@@Wonzling0815 Ooh yeah... nice.. all that juicy wisdom.. @_@
And time to go look up what that piece of eternity actually did. Ha. Ohh n just found it, was a negative plane token, protects ya from the shadows. Thank god for the RPGShrine. That site has everything.
Im glad torment is getting more recognition
The flashing at 8:00 I believe I saw some Evangelion imagery, fitting for this video lol