Grew up in a pentecostal church with openly disapproving parents when it came to being queer to the point where I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable telling them I'm bi. It's so hard to unlearn that deep sense of feeling like I'm still somehow 'damaged goods' because I'm not straight - when you get that feeling from otherwise very lovely people at church it really messes with your head.
Great chat. I was raised as Jehova’s Witness, and can totally relate with both of you. It’s really difficult to unlearn 20 years of doctrine, guilt, fear and rejection.
I was raised as a JW too and i had been active for my entire life. I've been out of the closet for a few months now and It's been very difficult and heartbreaking to see my friends and close ones stray away from me because i decided to make my own decisions. I'm at peace with my experience with religion, but it's crazy to me to realize that people who i thought were unconditionally loving, are now just not part of my life anymore.
Same here. It was a hard decision to step away from the JW religion and lose my family and friends but I got the point where I had to do it for my sanity. Spending 24x7 in the closet and paranoid about someone finding out is no way to live. Now I'm on my deconstruction journey and I from the outside I can see so many flaws that I either missed or explained away when I was still part of it. So many contradictions. I'll just leave it at that or this will turn into a novel instead of a comment. On a final note, seek your sanity and happiness first and a fitting faith or belief system will come along for you.
the sad thing about being raised Christian is that I’m left with a feeling of guilt indefinitely post leaving the church. Like I need to believe in god at some point in my future. Like even if i might not call myself a Christian, the fear of hell never quite leaves me
@@canaansoroya9079 i will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant it with no harmful intent but, "will you return and when" is a sentence that is incites fear. one of the huge things that turns me off of most christians is the fear mongering that exists so deeply. receiving your reply turns me away further from christianity than brings me in.
I feel this 🤣🤣 i feel like I'm having a faith crisis now, but the thing is its not easy to unlearn all the things you've veen taught since a very young age, so basically I'm questioning everything about my religion while still praying 5 times a day everyday
VERY IMPORTANT, thank you for discussing this. I grew up in a Christian cult that has torn up and embezzled dozens of families since the 80s. I grew up so depressed, because I thought Jesus was coming soon and it was pointless to live, and even think about having my own future. I thought about dying everyday, until I left that church.
This is tooooo relatable. I feel like our community could benefit a lot from talking more about this stuff. It affects you in ways you don’t even know at first..
Can i just make an appreciation about how you and Ryan are so mature and talk about different topics in such a simple and raw way. I feel like you two are ispirational... Like this is the way all partners should talk about things
The level of honesty in this conversation was so refreshing, and coming from someone that had a very similar upbringing, I really appreciated this video. I also appreciate how raw Ryan was about this topic, and I see a lot of myself in him. I love seeing these videos from you guy.
I just wanted to say, thank you both for your vulnerability and authenticity with this video. As a gay man who still believes in God, it's nice to hear others experience and know that I'm not alone.
This is something that really needs to be talked about. I grew up religious because of my mom who is devoted Christian and as a teen I started to identify as gay. Because of growing up religiously and afraid to disappoint my family I tried to hide it away and as a result had a pornography addiction. It was my escape. It wasn’t until I turned 18 and I decided that God made me gay, and I accepted it and I have felt so much freedom. Now I consider myself more spiritual than to be labeled as a “Christian”.
I would love to talk to you both about this subject. I was raised in a conservative church/denomination in the south. It's only in the last few years that I began to question what I was taught in the church about the queer community. I am in my 60's and have gone from tolerat5ing to accepting to finally affirming the queer community in church. Yes there are queer Christians. But God had to heal me of my homophobia before I could make peace with queer people. This only happened when I stopped listening to people (the Church) and listened to God instead. He loves you both and it breaks my heart that you have been treated so poorly by conservative Christians. There are many affirming churches and Christian allies out there. People who have done the research on the Bible theologically. I now attend an affirming Church where all are welcomed. Blessings
ryan's radical views on religion is just so refreshing to see displayed on the internet. totally relate to his bitterness and i'm glad that more people are talking about their experiences with growing up in these cult-like organisations.
Thanks for sharing your stories Joe and Ryan! As someone who also grew up in the Korean American church, it was really validating and relatable to hear y’all’s experiences. It’s really nice to know I wasn’t alone in the experiences :)
I am bitter because my parent was not religious. She goes to a traditional old-school Baptist church and loves it but never tried to force it on me. As a teenager, I started going to an evangelical church with my cousin and it turned our relationship upside down. I was 'saved' and started judging my own mother as a sinner (we looked down on the old-school churches) and did not listen to her. The church became my everything and she did not approve because she thought the church was brainwashing and using me. Now I appreciate some of the lessons I learned and the shelter I got in the church but she was ulimately proven right. She was right in many ways and I could not admit it even when I could see it. I lost so many friends and shunned people in my family. I was rude, hurtful and self righteous. A lot happened and I still struggle with guilt and shame but it could have been worse. I am grateful that I got out before perminate damage could be done.
This is crazy bcz I had the exact same experience with you guys, my father is a pastor and I grew up in a choir, every Sunday was church, I always wondered what people who don’t go to church I Sundays actually do on Sunday, fast foward in my twenties now and I am not a Christian, I’m the first one of the big family to actually come out to my whole family as not a Christian, I would even say I’m atheist, I have so many triggers when it comes to christianity, I just don’t even want to associate with it, I’m still trying to unlearn everything and learn how to navigate life without Christianity, I have so much I could say about this but I would need to do a podcast too. It’s nice to hear how much of the same up bringing we had, I’m also queer so it’s crazy
Thank you for your vulnerability and for addressing this subject. I think a large part of the LGBTQIA+ community has some connection to religious trauma.
One of the best episodes from both of you! I really love the vulnerability here, and it almost feels like I'm included in the conversation. Really great job!! Also I just love how defensive Ryan got over the fruity comment lol
Yikes, I could relate to Ryan's reaction of being called a fruity kid. Looking back as adults we know there's nothing wrong with it, but as a kid with parents and peers giving us the homophobic messaging to "be a man" gives us wounds that are still hard to accept and heal from. I also have a disdain for organized religion, because of the tendency for things to be painted in black and white. I loved the way you described it, externalizing internal problems by "giving it to God" but not doing anything themselves. It's almost shifting the blame and not taking any responsibility. I grew up trying to be the "perfect" Christian kid, always doing what I was told was right; sunday school teacher, being hypervigilant on who's watching me. It's anxiety inducing. I agree with Joe that the issue can be compounded with how conservative many asian cultures can be. The toxic parts of both can feed off of each other. I still haven't come out, and believe that physical distance is what's needed to truly be free. Hope you guys talk more about this!
18:30 I think I wrote this 😂... but from like a Hindu's (Hinduism) perspective. If you look at Hindu gods/scriptures, it's depicted in a gender/ sexually neutral way. Our gods by society standards don't present in a strictly masculine or feminine ways. It's a balance and its an aspect in which i find acceptance to express ones self. (Theres also recognition of a thired gender) The discrimination thou, mostly comes from the judgemental old woman and men, and their bigoted views alone does not represent the religion.
I am personally queer and christian and have been very fortunate to not let people’s opinions get in the way of something (God) that I feel convicted of. Truth is most of us judge each other so much when we personally struggle with whatever we are judging others on. Unfortunately, that’s not the heart of God in the Bible and it takes a personal relationship with God to discover our true image before God. I am really happy that you guys addressed this question because it’s so many of us who struggle with it when growing up. Thank you guys❤
Thank you so so much for broaching this topic. I was raised southern Baptist...oof. You’re better than me Joe because oftentimes I am bitter. Once you’re out of the flock I feel that organized religion as a whole has been corrupted. Over the pandemic I got very involved in witchcraft and that has been more nurturing and healing to me than any prayer or any verse.
*Yes . . . (humanity has it wrong about witchcraft)* It was always about positive earth-people using herbs & minerals from the earth for healing ~ then organized religion demonized their practice, ostracized it's followers and hurt individuals who did not believe in God!
you're allowed to be bitter or have negative feelings towards organized religion (as an institution, they've earned that response tbh). that's not a worse response than joe's or anyone else's. it's cool you found something else to replace it though!
I’m sorry that you were hurt by the church or hypocritical Christians. I was raised Catholic and hurt by a lot of Catholics and strayed away from Jesus and the church (pretty sure I was agnostic at one point), but I was spiraling from depression, alcohol, homosexuality, and family issues. I found my way back to Jesus as I realized He was the only one that could help me and to this day He is the reason that I am alive. I pray that you do not harden your heart too much and that you still leave room for Him to show Himself to you. Please do not use witchcraft as you may think it’s doing something or working temporarily but playing with dark forces that no one truly knows much about may come with a price. I mean that in the sense that these spirits you want to conjure do not play fair. I know ex witches that have been seriously messed up by the stuff they’ve seen and done when practicing. Jesus loves you and you are always valid.
Such a deep & honest discussion! ❤ Religion really is a tough topic. Unfortunately, I have heard some homophobic things being said in reference to my own sexuality based on religion as well. It’s mostly in the sense of me not being able to have a “real” marriage and stuff like that which I never ever believed but it still hurts to hear family members say and think like that. Also get the shame/ people part that you mentioned. Small community mindset really is stunting people’s ability to be themselves and talk / love freely because you try to be the model family and have to keep up with expectations. I hope the people who are still believers can open their minds and do away with discriminating notions in their faiths in the future. I think it should be possible to believe in the good essence of a faith & still keep the historical / cultural context attached in mind. As humanity evolves, religion should evolve, too. Also, how sweet is it that you are so sure about having kids together in the future? The way it’s not even hypothetical anymore when you talk about them warms my heart. 🫶
Thank you so much for these conversations and revisiting this topic from time to time. I hope Gen Z has a better chance to make these kind of decisions on their own, and not have to deal with all the guilt/fear/shame/trauma later in life. No 'community' is worth that imo.
As someone who still struggles with this. . .I've abandoned the church, but not my faith necessarily. It's hard, and I'm constantly at battle with inner self. I'm not sure I'll ever be at peace. My Grandmother is the model of my beliefs, she was a kind person, and never forced me to go to church, but asked every Sunday. Sometime when I got older it became mandatory though, my mother wanted us to go, but she doesn't remember exactly why. I don't blame her, she meant well, and has also step away from the church since. As I prepare to medically transition (non-binary), I intend to distance myself from most of the people I knew through church, for my safety, and well being. It's rough cutting ties to most of the people you've ever known outside of family.
I just moved to downtown Vancouver from the Fraser valley and a lot of what you both said resonates with me and my experience. I was the Christian camp counsellor, Sunday school teacher, youth group attendee, etc. That changed when I came out and it was hard but I feel fortunate to be able to live downtown with the guy I love! Thanks for the video it is helpful
I think this is a great conversation to be had, and I love that for you guys! I grew up Catholic and kept at it because it was so deeply ingrained in me. But eventually, I left for very similar reasons. I am now a Christian. Not very far, I know. I gotta say, there are many traditional-minded people in the church. My focal point is not on the human aspect of it, but on the actual word. And I do bring up very similar conversations because we can't just focus on a few aspects and turn a blind eye to others. Life is not a simple, straightforward path, and I still have A LOT of questions and concerns. But I've found a sense of joy and peace that I never had before... Again, love this conversation. More power to the both of you! 🙌
Thank you guys for being so transparent with us on such a touchy subject. I have mixed feelings with my own spirituality/religious identity. I was raised in a strict Christian household with peers from similar backgrounds. I was fortunate enough that my parents were pretty supportive (although hesitant) with my coming out and now it's a normal thing when talking about dating, relationships, etc. I feel like I grew familiar with that community as I am now attending a private religious university. 90% of the people I have met here are usually really cool with my sexuality and expression (I am pretty feminine by nature) and I have never had any serious issues. However, it is actually guys that are questioning themselves and have attraction to me that end up being pretty shiddy and using religion as an excuse to be that way. That's just my experience though and I am learning to be a stronger self-advocate in those situations. Much love from Cali ❤❤❤❤
ummm LUV these podcast episodes, and if y’all would kindly make them AT LEAST 30 minutes longer it would be greatly appreciated. I need more. When it comes to a podcast, I’m here the long haul, I’m here for a *journey* and WHO better to experience it with than you two ?!?
wow. hearing your experiences as an atheist who was never in my life been led towards religion (im queer an turning 20 this year) in my whole life this sounds like a sci-fi to me. Thanks for sharing your stories, i really love this format of videos, i could listen to you talk all day.
This is so therapeutic as a queer guy raised Christian in a Black family/church. I’m kinda of a mix between Joe and Ryan as I’m venturing into self discovery. Keep up the great content!!
Oh this is going to be interesting, as someone who is gay and grew up going to church every week- for me it was hard dealing with conflicting thoughts as my church was in the south USA and were very conservative , and especially growing up latino where being gay is a topic not really talked about and frowned upon :”( Anyways… love these podcasts videos joe, and hearing y’all’s thoughts/stories. 👍🏽
I grew up without organized religion until one day my dad and step mom took me to their evangelical church. I was a born again zombie for about a month, telling everyone that if they weren't Christian they were going to hell. Scared the crap out of my mom. I listened to Christian rock, it makes me sick thinking how fast I was brainwashed. Since then, no way I would ever advocate for organized religion. My husband too. We celebrate secular versions of Christmas and Easter. I wanted to light the menorah for Hannukah with our kids, as that's a part of ethnic heritage, but my husband said not his kids. I thought it was my Jewish version of having a Christmas tree, but nope. I guess that's a whole nother story though. I think what threw me out of the "cult" state of mind with my dad's church WAS their homophobic preaching. All of a sudden I woke up, and called bullshit, because even as a teenager in the early 90's being an ally was very important to me.
Thank you for sharing this! I currently align more with Ryan's view but I really appreciated hearing both of your experiences. I think it's super important for people to talk about this, as LGBTQ+ people can feel a loss or disconnect from a big part of their lives once we're "out" or simply know ourselves better/judge ourselves less. Thank you for sharing ❤
Such an interesting discussion! I am an 87 year old grandmother of two gay grand children. I am a member of a UCC church that has a gay pastor. My grandchildren did not grow up the way you guys did, but always felt excepted for their gayness or queerness. I do not believe in hell, and that was never held over my head growing up, even though my dad was a pastor.
I appreciate the frankness of this dialogue. I grew up in and have remained in the church despite being bi. For me, I genuinely believe that Jesus lived a perfect life unto God, died on a cross, and was raised to life by God. Because of this, leaving the church because of my sexuality made no sense. If Jesus is not who he says he is, then there's no obligation to stay. But if he is who he says he is, there's no good reason to leave. For me, it all centers on is Jesus really the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Thank you both again!
I agree with Dean, I’m very distrustful of organized religion. Where many are hypocrites and bigots and hide behind religion to justify their hate. I was raised Catholic and it’s basic teachings of loving one another and being a good person to everyone is a great foundation. I’m afraid it gets muddled when people project their own spin and prejudices on who you love and care about. As one gets older we’re able to make choices for ourselves but still have that basic idea that one should do things out of love. I think that’s how you two conduct your lives. The notion of religion, culture and gayness is a continuing discussion with so many points of view. Thank you for sharing your thoughts 👍🙏😎
There are many different types of Christian sects. As an older gay male I came back to Christianity 20+ years ago when I found a really progressive, affirming community in the Methodist tradition. The PNW has been affirming for many years now my congregation for 30 years. Don’t stay away if it’s just finding an affirming tradition. They are out there and being fully open and out and affirmed within the greater church is so wonderful. Peace & Grace, I really appreciate you guys.
im so glad i found you guys. i dont know if its because of the life i lead irl, where im not really surrounded by too many queer people, or because i dont really know how to seek out bi content creators (i feel like such a boomer saying this, even though i feel like ive spent half my life on youtube), but most of the queer content ive consumed on the internet has been gay or trans related stuff. and though ive found comfort and related to it a lot, i never really found openly bi couples? anyway, what i mean to say is that as a bi person this brings me a lot of comfort and belonging. i didnt realize how nice it feels to watch people that you just get, and feel like theyll understand you too. i really need to seek out more bi youtubers and content creators because seriously, this feels great! it feels like home. its comfy and warm. i can only hope that one day i can find friends like yall irl, but until this i will be parasocializing tf out of this one-sided internet relationship. idk if you read comments but i hope my energy reaches you in some way lol 💞 re: religious upbringings, i think i declared myself atheist to my mom at the age of 10 or 11. was just praying one day and stopped myself in the middle like, "who am i talking to? is anyone there? this feels silly." i dont think i had realised fully that i was queer, or i didnt have a name to put on it since being bi and having crushes on the opposite gender as well felt like a bit of a scapegoat for me to feel.. "normal" or "accepted". i was raised hindu and homosexuality isnt even a topic of discussion in my family and a lot of families, its literally a taboo. the only time i witnessed blatant homophobia from my mom was when she saw two men cuddling on the street and felt like that was icky and gross, and i dont know how much of it had to do with religion. i feel like most of it didnt directly tie to her religious beliefs. maybe it did. but i still do dislike organised religion, despite it not playing a big part in my sexual identity crisis. people are free to believe in whatever they want, but the line is drawn when that belief is actively hurting people, and it is thrust on those who cannot actively consent. its brainwashing, and its wrong. looking back, im at least happy that my mom gave me the freedom to have my own thoughts and opinions on things, even if i was raised religious from birth. it felt liberating to be able to declare myself a disbeliever, and my mom was even considerate when the family planned temple visits. she didnt want me to be in an environment that i didnt want to be in. my distance and separation from religion also helped me come to terms with my sexuality a lot more easily when i was around 13 or 14, i was actually really happy when the realisation hit that i was bisexual. it was almost not even something i needed to find peace with, really. it felt peaceful to admit it. really, i wonder how much it wouldve hurt if i still felt tied to the idea of god.
Excellent, excellent episode. This is coming from someone who spent over twenty years working professionally in the church and now is kind of like Ryan in that I have little use for organised religion.
I relate to Ryan so much, and I understand where his disregard for religion comes from. I also grew up religous, went to biblle study and all that. And then in my teenage years, I figured out my bisexuality and that is when I understood that Christianism as it is now would never accept me. That is why i drifted away from it, and still get heated when I talk about religion with my religious friends. It is so hard for me to understand how people can engage in Christianism or islam and still be allies. I love my friends dearly, but at the same time I think they are being hypocrites to their own religion. The representatives of those religions will forever disregard LGBTQ people, how can you at the same time attend pride and say you love everyone, its so weird to me..
I can relate to you Ryan. Growing up with quilt and the fear that you will never be good enough for heaven is emotionally abusive! I still believe in God, a loving, accepting, and forgiving God. I have no qualms in disliking organized religion.
Lol that's how i got stuck in young adult leadership in church... i walked up the stage one day, took the mic and started singing... then i regret doing it because it seems like i was unsatisfied with the lead singer 😅...
The worst part is that most people don't know that the word homosexual wasn't even put in the bible until the 60's and since then many passages have been changed to fit man narrative to where I feel at this point the only person I trust is God. I believe he loves me no matter what and religion, being man made, is absolutely not something I pay any attention to and as far as the bible goes, It's best to research the original translation. Specially when it comes to being gay. The original translation of the bible does not state anything about men going to hell for laying with other men, the original translation is that man should not lay with boys but passages in the bible have been changed to fit a certain narrative that can definitely make gay boys and girls growing up in church today feel like their damned to hell and that's not what God is about. God is love and he loves everyone.
As someone who grew up with a more mild experience of religion in usually only going on holidays tho still intense in the fact that I was baptized, did confession, confirmation, and communion so did church school for a couple of years in elementary, I was still severely affected by the negativity of church against queer people. I felt that impact regardless and struggled with myself because of what I had heard or been told. I 100% agree with what Ryan said about the fear mongering surrounding hell. It’s terrifying as a child and even today can still feel that way. Like if anything is indoctrination it is organized religion. That awful threat of hell disgusts me and makes me feel for all the queer and trans children out there and any poor child subjected to it. I went through a period in high school of intense love for god and church and all that to try and make myself feel better and thinking it would make my life better and I could ignore my queerness. Spoiler alert: it doesn’t work!! Sorry for long rant but I felt that guilt even as someone not so deep into it. Also love that Ryan was a fruity child😂embrace it Ryan! Especially the limp wrist!
Very important topic. I hate that religion is so restrictive:(. I grew up in a very liberal queer friendly church in Germany and in the time of my coming out it wasn't a problem at all. But I really understand your point of view and am very sad that it's still a topic we are talking about 🥲
Catholic Christian raised here! Thank you sooo much for this conversation: we have the same age/queer experience and this is the first time I heard someone share my viewpoint on religion and how it affects growth It's very comforting knowing there's someone out there processing the same things ❤
Thank you for an interesting video, I just wanna say that there was a weird echo in the sound that distracted me a bit. BTW I really like how you can disagree with each other without getting offensive and how you respect each other's opinions and always try to understand your partner's view, keeping an open mind.
Great content! I'm a Christian and a lesbian AND Lebanese lol triple homicide so I totally relate to everything that was said although I still keep my faith ❤
Thanks for sharing your journey with religion and how it affects your sexual identity. So much of what you shared resonated with my experiences. It really takes alot to own your truth and become your authentic self.
OMG first of all, you two are sooo cute!! I LOVE, LOVE this conversation. Thank you sooo much for doing this, it's such an important conversation that I don't really see on the internet. It's crazy to me how much I relate to both of you, more so Joe, crazy considering Im a black gay guy from South Africa. Pretty much had what sounds like a similar experience as Joe growing up queer and in a christian home.
Thank you for sharing. I consider myself a queer Christian. (homo-romantic demisexual) I grew up episcopalian going to Sunday school and church every Sunday, going to bible camp, during the day during summer break, in HS youth group. I grew up episcopalian (American branch of the Anglican church i.e. Church of England). I remember when I was being harassed in school for being gay (eventhough I was not out) praying to be straight. Church was not anti-LGBTQ matter of fact our priest voted to elect the first gay bishop in the church. I at one point briefly walked away from Christianity in that I stopped identifying but in practice it was more a period where I deconstructed my faith and rebuilt it, in what I would say was a communion with God and through God's inspiration. In the theological and spiritual queer affirming sources that I allowed into my life. I have also found profound strength in my faith through that process to deal with the challenges (and even hatred I have experienced as a queer man). It has also been a source of strength in dealing with both ends of my bipolar disorder especially as my mania gets dysphoric and often careening into a mixed episode. Where I've often been psychotic, not in the hearing voices or hallucinating, but in living in a reality that is not real and is actually divorced from actual reality. I've wound up in hospital twice for such episodes (probably should have a few other times, if not came close) the last stay was around Thanksgiving of 2020 I had gone manic and it got dysphoric paranoid delusions of persecution, then into a full blown psychotic mixed episode where I was highly suicidal (plan means etc) believed 1000% reality that everyone could read my mind where out to get me, wanted me to end myself, but where trying to trick me into thinking they couldn't read my mind, eventhough in my mind's eye I could "hear" what they where thinking. It ended in a week long hospital stay, a botched two week return to work followed by a 4 week leave of absence (which used up my last 2 weeks sick time followed by two weeks vacation time, then more vacation time during the return process) to avoid another stay with 2-3 times a week visits with my psychiatrist. Then a stepped return to work over the next 2-3 weeks. My faith is a big part of what got me through that and other such episodes in my life. (Started having them at 16) I have a complicated relationship with other Christians though, especially those that try to use faith to hurt others. I try to be charitable in how I interact with them that they may just be coming from a place of not understanding and of having had poor intellectual ceriousity. But I also feel they are not really taking on-board Jesus teachings but being the pharaohs instead and gate keeping with their own biases as part of the rules, which I find hard to be charitable about and hard to see as true believers nor as members of the community of faith.
A good Discussion. FOr me, I never really understood church. It never made sense to me, I didn't understand why everyone was just believing what was written in this book that had no evidence behind it. They couldn't answer questions I had. I think also the fact that my Dad never went to church with my mother and me helped me question it. Cuz why wasn't Dad going? "Oh he doesn't believe it" My Dad was a brilliant man and if he didn't believe it, there had to be a reason. My own queerness didn't really come into play until much much later, by the time I came out I had't been to church in probably over a decade. But I as fascinated by religion, i studied it a lot, and just found all of it so weird, the 3 most popular religions are all just offshoots of each other, and prior to their rise EVERYONE had polythesitic beliefs that predate the big 3, so how could ANY of the big 3 be right if we KNOW that culture and art, and science existed BEFORE them? Just a lot of logic questions before the hatred ever became a thing I was even aware of. But Im with Ryan, I actively dislike organized religion. I am decidedly an athiest, I don't beleive in a god or heaven or hell, or any of it. And if by chance there is, no human has ever gotten any of it right. but the various lore and mythologies are fun to play with in terms of story and creativity.
I’m praying for everyone in this comment section that has been hurt by someone of the church and turned their back on Jesus. He is not a man that has hurt you. If you feel conviction in your heart at any time I pray you lean into it and let it guide you to truth. He is the only love and the only truth. I grew up Catholic and was hurt by many christian’s but it was ultimately Jesus that saved me from committing self-cancellation. I pray whatever sounds, traumas, or attacks the enemy has thrown at you are bound and thrown into the lake of fire and that you are set free in JESUS name!
I haven't seen you guys since "what should we eat today." You have evolved in a great way. The community needs good thinkers. It needs to be clear, we are valid thinkers and contributors.
Joe and Ryan, as a Christian who experiences both same and opposite sex attraction, I wanted to let you know, especially Ryan, that I am truly sorry for your negative experiences in the church, in general and also in terms of you discovering your sexuality, and how that has led you to feel resentment and the need to leave religion altogether. Personally, in my journey of struggling with same sex attraction and slowly sharing it with others in my church, I have been met with overwhelmingly positive responses and have been genuinely shown Christ's love through the incredible response of the Christians around me, who so often can be lumped together and demonised as being homophobic and hateful, when in reality there are true Christians out there who embody the love of Christ and will not discriminate or treat you differently just because you experience same sex attraction. It breaks my heart to hear that what I experienced was not the same for you. I'd love to encourage both of you to continue to seek true Christianity, separated from any of the toxicity that you have been exposed to. I found that testimonies of ssa/gay/bi Christians especially helpful and encouraging (heaps of them on the web, good to be discerning w/ them also), particularly when I was deeply struggling with reconciling my sexuality with my faith. I promise you, there is a real love, hope and assurance that can be found in Jesus. Lots of love, Levi :)
I'm single to this day due to the church upbringing and my family, mainly the parents and older brother not being entirely accepting to the LGBTQ+ community. They are getting better, but you can still see they all struggle with fully accepting it. I try not to push it or really show off my pride for who I am, just live a quiet and personal life. One of the rules they told me when I came out was no PDA in front of them, but my future boyfriend or husband was always welcome. So I didn't see that as full acceptance and found it easier to just be single vs. having to date someone in secret or not be able to be our true selves around everyone.
Thank you for each sharing your experiences and story and explaining where you are at now. What a topic to talk about! I imagine it might attract some extreme comments. Good on you for discussing it with honesty and openness and understanding. You are both very good for each other. Listening to you respectfully and thoughtfully discuss this topic from different perspectives/experiences was refreshing and I really appreciated this. Thank you. Well done. Great post.
I’m honestly struggling so hard right now with my sexuality. I grew up in a religious household and I’m already distant from my family as it is. I know that if I am honest with them, I will be completely cut off and it feels shitty.
The thing is being gay is not a sin. I was so lucky to have found this out, if I hadn't I probably would have committed you know what. There are a lot of scholars that accurately interpret the Bible, especially about homosexuality. One of my people to learn from is Dan McClellan.
I can relate in so many ways. Thank you for this video!! Now I don’t feel so alone with what I’ve experienced. Do you guys get hate from your people who are still in church?
ty for this episode from a former church kid!! loooool minorly triggered by the singing at the end of the vid everytime i accidently scroll through a christian rock radio station on a road trip it happens. i get bitter about how much i've internalized from growing up evangelistic! i feel it every time i learn that others don't have some of the same "norms" that i have and realizing that my brain is filled with some really useless bible knowledge
🤍✨. Thank you for talking about this and thank you for your courage too, Before reading below plz don't feel like I'm saying your wrong or teaching u how to feel, it is just a thought: Something small I wanna let you guys and anyone reading to think about it is, one of the way one is able to raise themselves or their kids away from religion is if they grasp their hate or detest of religion. I completely feel both sides and from the way Ryan reacts it reminds me why I dislike religion and its culture because the pain overweights everything and even logic. It is ok to feel like shutting off but also remember to also give your self time to think and heal through the pain because it can get ugly believe me I feel u. Take your time before anything and if after the time you still feel like your done and so will be your children that is very fine. Thanks once again 💫.
God has nothing to do with religion (being religious). The collective ego of human beings invented religion (being religious) - a projection of what/who they think God is and what "the rules" are. God doesn't give a shit if you are gay, straight, bi, etc... Just be at peace and know you are Loved. 💜
I disagree with Joe and more with Ryan in this topic. I do not think it’s just an issue with people. I think it has a lot to do with the religious belief itself. The more you look at the belief, the less it makes sense. A father who loves you but wants to send you into eternal damnation if you don’t want him in your life. A father who so loved his kids but drowned them all when they were being bad except his favorite one. It’s abusive and toxic belief towards children, LGBT, minority religions, and women. And this is when you remember that religion was written by people and it carried the negative bias the people who wrote it had. Even worse, the fact that you cannot question the belief if you are a part of a church makes the system unlikely to change which inhibits growth and perpetuates toxic cycles.
What about other religions besides Christianity like Buddhism or other belief/knowledge systems like Veganism? Curious of your opinions in terms of organized belief systems.
Grew up in a pentecostal church with openly disapproving parents when it came to being queer to the point where I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable telling them I'm bi. It's so hard to unlearn that deep sense of feeling like I'm still somehow 'damaged goods' because I'm not straight - when you get that feeling from otherwise very lovely people at church it really messes with your head.
Great chat.
I was raised as Jehova’s Witness, and can totally relate with both of you.
It’s really difficult to unlearn 20 years of doctrine, guilt, fear and rejection.
I was raised as a JW too and i had been active for my entire life. I've been out of the closet for a few months now and It's been very difficult and heartbreaking to see my friends and close ones stray away from me because i decided to make my own decisions. I'm at peace with my experience with religion, but it's crazy to me to realize that people who i thought were unconditionally loving, are now just not part of my life anymore.
Same
Same here. It was a hard decision to step away from the JW religion and lose my family and friends but I got the point where I had to do it for my sanity. Spending 24x7 in the closet and paranoid about someone finding out is no way to live. Now I'm on my deconstruction journey and I from the outside I can see so many flaws that I either missed or explained away when I was still part of it. So many contradictions. I'll just leave it at that or this will turn into a novel instead of a comment. On a final note, seek your sanity and happiness first and a fitting faith or belief system will come along for you.
the sad thing about being raised Christian is that I’m left with a feeling of guilt indefinitely post leaving the church. Like I need to believe in god at some point in my future. Like even if i might not call myself a Christian, the fear of hell never quite leaves me
@@canaansoroya9079 i will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you meant it with no harmful intent but, "will you return and when" is a sentence that is incites fear. one of the huge things that turns me off of most christians is the fear mongering that exists so deeply. receiving your reply turns me away further from christianity than brings me in.
I feel this 🤣🤣 i feel like I'm having a faith crisis now, but the thing is its not easy to unlearn all the things you've veen taught since a very young age, so basically I'm questioning everything about my religion while still praying 5 times a day everyday
@@alsimanche Are u still questioning ? In my case it make me turn way from religion, but I still believe in the existence of God.
VERY IMPORTANT, thank you for discussing this. I grew up in a Christian cult that has torn up and embezzled dozens of families since the 80s. I grew up so depressed, because I thought Jesus was coming soon and it was pointless to live, and even think about having my own future. I thought about dying everyday, until I left that church.
I was raised Mormon. Yikes. Left church at 17. Never returned. Thanks for sharing Joe and Ryan. Outstanding 💯
This is tooooo relatable. I feel like our community could benefit a lot from talking more about this stuff. It affects you in ways you don’t even know at first..
Thank you both for sharing your experiences. I was raised Catholic and definitely struggled coming to terms with my bisexuality because of it.
💖💜💙
Can i just make an appreciation about how you and Ryan are so mature and talk about different topics in such a simple and raw way. I feel like you two are ispirational... Like this is the way all partners should talk about things
The level of honesty in this conversation was so refreshing, and coming from someone that had a very similar upbringing, I really appreciated this video. I also appreciate how raw Ryan was about this topic, and I see a lot of myself in him. I love seeing these videos from you guy.
"If they die before finding Jesus that's on them." LMAO as a queer guy who was brought up baptist this made me laugh until tears.
I just wanted to say, thank you both for your vulnerability and authenticity with this video. As a gay man who still believes in God, it's nice to hear others experience and know that I'm not alone.
This is something that really needs to be talked about. I grew up religious because of my mom who is devoted Christian and as a teen I started to identify as gay. Because of growing up religiously and afraid to disappoint my family I tried to hide it away and as a result had a pornography addiction. It was my escape. It wasn’t until I turned 18 and I decided that God made me gay, and I accepted it and I have felt so much freedom. Now I consider myself more spiritual than to be labeled as a “Christian”.
I'm still Christian but openly queer to people I'm not related to, still kind of navigating that
I would love to talk to you both about this subject. I was raised in a conservative church/denomination in the south. It's only in the last few years that I began to question what I was taught in the church about the queer community. I am in my 60's and have gone from tolerat5ing to accepting to finally affirming the queer community in church. Yes there are queer Christians. But God had to heal me of my homophobia before I could make peace with queer people. This only happened when I stopped listening to people (the Church) and listened to God instead. He loves you both and it breaks my heart that you have been treated so poorly by conservative Christians. There are many affirming churches and Christian allies out there. People who have done the research on the Bible theologically. I now attend an affirming Church where all are welcomed.
Blessings
ryan's radical views on religion is just so refreshing to see displayed on the internet. totally relate to his bitterness and i'm glad that more people are talking about their experiences with growing up in these cult-like organisations.
Thanks for sharing your stories Joe and Ryan!
As someone who also grew up in the Korean American church, it was really validating and relatable to hear y’all’s experiences. It’s really nice to know I wasn’t alone in the experiences :)
I totally relate. The amount of unlearning of what church , religion means is enormous
I am bitter because my parent was not religious. She goes to a traditional old-school Baptist church and loves it but never tried to force it on me. As a teenager, I started going to an evangelical church with my cousin and it turned our relationship upside down. I was 'saved' and started judging my own mother as a sinner (we looked down on the old-school churches) and did not listen to her. The church became my everything and she did not approve because she thought the church was brainwashing and using me. Now I appreciate some of the lessons I learned and the shelter I got in the church but she was ulimately proven right.
She was right in many ways and I could not admit it even when I could see it. I lost so many friends and shunned people in my family. I was rude, hurtful and self righteous. A lot happened and I still struggle with guilt and shame but it could have been worse. I am grateful that I got out before perminate damage could be done.
This is crazy bcz I had the exact same experience with you guys, my father is a pastor and I grew up in a choir, every Sunday was church, I always wondered what people who don’t go to church I Sundays actually do on Sunday, fast foward in my twenties now and I am not a Christian, I’m the first one of the big family to actually come out to my whole family as not a Christian, I would even say I’m atheist, I have so many triggers when it comes to christianity, I just don’t even want to associate with it, I’m still trying to unlearn everything and learn how to navigate life without Christianity, I have so much I could say about this but I would need to do a podcast too. It’s nice to hear how much of the same up bringing we had, I’m also queer so it’s crazy
Thank you for your vulnerability and for addressing this subject. I think a large part of the LGBTQIA+ community has some connection to religious trauma.
Oop, chile I'm glad you brought this topic up!!! Lemme strap in and listen 🤩
One of the best episodes from both of you! I really love the vulnerability here, and it almost feels like I'm included in the conversation. Really great job!! Also I just love how defensive Ryan got over the fruity comment lol
Yikes, I could relate to Ryan's reaction of being called a fruity kid. Looking back as adults we know there's nothing wrong with it, but as a kid with parents and peers giving us the homophobic messaging to "be a man" gives us wounds that are still hard to accept and heal from. I also have a disdain for organized religion, because of the tendency for things to be painted in black and white. I loved the way you described it, externalizing internal problems by "giving it to God" but not doing anything themselves. It's almost shifting the blame and not taking any responsibility. I grew up trying to be the "perfect" Christian kid, always doing what I was told was right; sunday school teacher, being hypervigilant on who's watching me. It's anxiety inducing. I agree with Joe that the issue can be compounded with how conservative many asian cultures can be. The toxic parts of both can feed off of each other. I still haven't come out, and believe that physical distance is what's needed to truly be free. Hope you guys talk more about this!
18:30 I think I wrote this 😂... but from like a Hindu's (Hinduism) perspective. If you look at Hindu gods/scriptures, it's depicted in a gender/ sexually neutral way. Our gods by society standards don't present in a strictly masculine or feminine ways. It's a balance and its an aspect in which i find acceptance to express ones self.
(Theres also recognition of a thired gender) The discrimination thou, mostly comes from the judgemental old woman and men, and their bigoted views alone does not represent the religion.
I am personally queer and christian and have been very fortunate to not let people’s opinions get in the way of something (God) that I feel convicted of. Truth is most of us judge each other so much when we personally struggle with whatever we are judging others on. Unfortunately, that’s not the heart of God in the Bible and it takes a personal relationship with God to discover our true image before God.
I am really happy that you guys addressed this question because it’s so many of us who struggle with it when growing up.
Thank you guys❤
Thank you so so much for broaching this topic. I was raised southern Baptist...oof. You’re better than me Joe because oftentimes I am bitter. Once you’re out of the flock I feel that organized religion as a whole has been corrupted. Over the pandemic I got very involved in witchcraft and that has been more nurturing and healing to me than any prayer or any verse.
*Yes . . . (humanity has it wrong about witchcraft)* It was always about positive earth-people using herbs & minerals from the earth for healing ~ then organized religion demonized their practice, ostracized it's followers and hurt individuals who did not believe in God!
you're allowed to be bitter or have negative feelings towards organized religion (as an institution, they've earned that response tbh). that's not a worse response than joe's or anyone else's.
it's cool you found something else to replace it though!
I’m sorry that you were hurt by the church or hypocritical Christians. I was raised Catholic and hurt by a lot of Catholics and strayed away from Jesus and the church (pretty sure I was agnostic at one point), but I was spiraling from depression, alcohol, homosexuality, and family issues. I found my way back to Jesus as I realized He was the only one that could help me and to this day He is the reason that I am alive. I pray that you do not harden your heart too much and that you still leave room for Him to show Himself to you. Please do not use witchcraft as you may think it’s doing something or working temporarily but playing with dark forces that no one truly knows much about may come with a price. I mean that in the sense that these spirits you want to conjure do not play fair. I know ex witches that have been seriously messed up by the stuff they’ve seen and done when practicing. Jesus loves you and you are always valid.
Such a deep & honest discussion! ❤ Religion really is a tough topic. Unfortunately, I have heard some homophobic things being said in reference to my own sexuality based on religion as well. It’s mostly in the sense of me not being able to have a “real” marriage and stuff like that which I never ever believed but it still hurts to hear family members say and think like that. Also get the shame/ people part that you mentioned. Small community mindset really is stunting people’s ability to be themselves and talk / love freely because you try to be the model family and have to keep up with expectations.
I hope the people who are still believers can open their minds and do away with discriminating notions in their faiths in the future. I think it should be possible to believe in the good essence of a faith & still keep the historical / cultural context attached in mind. As humanity evolves, religion should evolve, too.
Also, how sweet is it that you are so sure about having kids together in the future? The way it’s not even hypothetical anymore when you talk about them warms my heart. 🫶
I love when you both have these shared discussions - it creates much-needed conversation & reflection. Thank you
Thank you so much for these conversations and revisiting this topic from time to time. I hope Gen Z has a better chance to make these kind of decisions on their own, and not have to deal with all the guilt/fear/shame/trauma later in life. No 'community' is worth that imo.
As someone who still struggles with this. . .I've abandoned the church, but not my faith necessarily. It's hard, and I'm constantly at battle with inner self. I'm not sure I'll ever be at peace.
My Grandmother is the model of my beliefs, she was a kind person, and never forced me to go to church, but asked every Sunday. Sometime when I got older it became mandatory though, my mother wanted us to go, but she doesn't remember exactly why. I don't blame her, she meant well, and has also step away from the church since.
As I prepare to medically transition (non-binary), I intend to distance myself from most of the people I knew through church, for my safety, and well being. It's rough cutting ties to most of the people you've ever known outside of family.
I just moved to downtown Vancouver from the Fraser valley and a lot of what you both said resonates with me and my experience. I was the Christian camp counsellor, Sunday school teacher, youth group attendee, etc. That changed when I came out and it was hard but I feel fortunate to be able to live downtown with the guy I love! Thanks for the video it is helpful
Thank you for speaking about this topic!! As someone who grew up in a religious household, I relate to this so much.
I think this is a great conversation to be had, and I love that for you guys! I grew up Catholic and kept at it because it was so deeply ingrained in me. But eventually, I left for very similar reasons. I am now a Christian. Not very far, I know.
I gotta say, there are many traditional-minded people in the church. My focal point is not on the human aspect of it, but on the actual word. And I do bring up very similar conversations because we can't just focus on a few aspects and turn a blind eye to others.
Life is not a simple, straightforward path, and I still have A LOT of questions and concerns. But I've found a sense of joy and peace that I never had before...
Again, love this conversation. More power to the both of you! 🙌
Thank you guys for being so transparent with us on such a touchy subject. I have mixed feelings with my own spirituality/religious identity. I was raised in a strict Christian household with peers from similar backgrounds. I was fortunate enough that my parents were pretty supportive (although hesitant) with my coming out and now it's a normal thing when talking about dating, relationships, etc. I feel like I grew familiar with that community as I am now attending a private religious university. 90% of the people I have met here are usually really cool with my sexuality and expression (I am pretty feminine by nature) and I have never had any serious issues. However, it is actually guys that are questioning themselves and have attraction to me that end up being pretty shiddy and using religion as an excuse to be that way. That's just my experience though and I am learning to be a stronger self-advocate in those situations. Much love from Cali ❤❤❤❤
damn that church song bit at the end really took it home for me LOL they really do hit different
ummm LUV these podcast episodes, and if y’all would kindly make them AT LEAST 30 minutes longer it would be greatly appreciated. I need more. When it comes to a podcast, I’m here the long haul, I’m here for a *journey* and WHO better to experience it with than you two ?!?
wow. hearing your experiences as an atheist who was never in my life been led towards religion (im queer an turning 20 this year) in my whole life this sounds like a sci-fi to me. Thanks for sharing your stories, i really love this format of videos, i could listen to you talk all day.
This is so therapeutic as a queer guy raised Christian in a Black family/church. I’m kinda of a mix between Joe and Ryan as I’m venturing into self discovery. Keep up the great content!!
Oh this is going to be interesting, as someone who is gay and grew up going to church every week- for me it was hard dealing with conflicting thoughts as my church was in the south USA and were very conservative , and especially growing up latino where being gay is a topic not really talked about and frowned upon :”(
Anyways… love these podcasts videos joe, and hearing y’all’s thoughts/stories. 👍🏽
I grew up without organized religion until one day my dad and step mom took me to their evangelical church. I was a born again zombie for about a month, telling everyone that if they weren't Christian they were going to hell. Scared the crap out of my mom. I listened to Christian rock, it makes me sick thinking how fast I was brainwashed. Since then, no way I would ever advocate for organized religion. My husband too. We celebrate secular versions of Christmas and Easter. I wanted to light the menorah for Hannukah with our kids, as that's a part of ethnic heritage, but my husband said not his kids. I thought it was my Jewish version of having a Christmas tree, but nope. I guess that's a whole nother story though. I think what threw me out of the "cult" state of mind with my dad's church WAS their homophobic preaching. All of a sudden I woke up, and called bullshit, because even as a teenager in the early 90's being an ally was very important to me.
Thank you for sharing this!
I currently align more with Ryan's view but I really appreciated hearing both of your experiences. I think it's super important for people to talk about this, as LGBTQ+ people can feel a loss or disconnect from a big part of their lives once we're "out" or simply know ourselves better/judge ourselves less.
Thank you for sharing ❤
Life is profound and is NOW ! Love to all ♥️
This is an awesome subject. I love that you guys cover the Christian/ religious experience. It does make you all a well rounded individual.
Such an interesting discussion! I am an 87 year old grandmother of two gay grand children. I am a member of a UCC church that has a gay pastor. My grandchildren did not grow up the way you guys did, but always felt excepted for their gayness or queerness. I do not believe in hell, and that was never held over my head growing up, even though my dad was a pastor.
I appreciate the frankness of this dialogue.
I grew up in and have remained in the church despite being bi. For me, I genuinely believe that Jesus lived a perfect life unto God, died on a cross, and was raised to life by God. Because of this, leaving the church because of my sexuality made no sense. If Jesus is not who he says he is, then there's no obligation to stay. But if he is who he says he is, there's no good reason to leave. For me, it all centers on is Jesus really the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Thank you both again!
I agree with Dean, I’m very distrustful of organized religion. Where many are hypocrites and bigots and hide behind religion to justify their hate. I was raised Catholic and it’s basic teachings of loving one another and being a good person to everyone is a great foundation. I’m afraid it gets muddled when people project their own spin and prejudices on who you love and care about. As one gets older we’re able to make choices for ourselves but still have that basic idea that one should do things out of love. I think that’s how you two conduct your lives. The notion of religion, culture and gayness is a continuing discussion with so many points of view. Thank you for sharing your thoughts 👍🙏😎
There are many different types of Christian sects. As an older gay male I came back to Christianity 20+ years ago when I found a really progressive, affirming community in the Methodist tradition. The PNW has been affirming for many years now my congregation for 30 years. Don’t stay away if it’s just finding an affirming tradition. They are out there and being fully open and out and affirmed within the greater church is so wonderful.
Peace & Grace, I really appreciate you guys.
im so glad i found you guys. i dont know if its because of the life i lead irl, where im not really surrounded by too many queer people, or because i dont really know how to seek out bi content creators (i feel like such a boomer saying this, even though i feel like ive spent half my life on youtube), but most of the queer content ive consumed on the internet has been gay or trans related stuff. and though ive found comfort and related to it a lot, i never really found openly bi couples? anyway, what i mean to say is that as a bi person this brings me a lot of comfort and belonging. i didnt realize how nice it feels to watch people that you just get, and feel like theyll understand you too. i really need to seek out more bi youtubers and content creators because seriously, this feels great! it feels like home. its comfy and warm. i can only hope that one day i can find friends like yall irl, but until this i will be parasocializing tf out of this one-sided internet relationship. idk if you read comments but i hope my energy reaches you in some way lol 💞
re: religious upbringings, i think i declared myself atheist to my mom at the age of 10 or 11. was just praying one day and stopped myself in the middle like, "who am i talking to? is anyone there? this feels silly." i dont think i had realised fully that i was queer, or i didnt have a name to put on it since being bi and having crushes on the opposite gender as well felt like a bit of a scapegoat for me to feel.. "normal" or "accepted". i was raised hindu and homosexuality isnt even a topic of discussion in my family and a lot of families, its literally a taboo. the only time i witnessed blatant homophobia from my mom was when she saw two men cuddling on the street and felt like that was icky and gross, and i dont know how much of it had to do with religion. i feel like most of it didnt directly tie to her religious beliefs. maybe it did. but i still do dislike organised religion, despite it not playing a big part in my sexual identity crisis. people are free to believe in whatever they want, but the line is drawn when that belief is actively hurting people, and it is thrust on those who cannot actively consent. its brainwashing, and its wrong. looking back, im at least happy that my mom gave me the freedom to have my own thoughts and opinions on things, even if i was raised religious from birth. it felt liberating to be able to declare myself a disbeliever, and my mom was even considerate when the family planned temple visits. she didnt want me to be in an environment that i didnt want to be in. my distance and separation from religion also helped me come to terms with my sexuality a lot more easily when i was around 13 or 14, i was actually really happy when the realisation hit that i was bisexual. it was almost not even something i needed to find peace with, really. it felt peaceful to admit it. really, i wonder how much it wouldve hurt if i still felt tied to the idea of god.
Excellent, excellent episode. This is coming from someone who spent over twenty years working professionally in the church and now is kind of like Ryan in that I have little use for organised religion.
I relate to Ryan so much, and I understand where his disregard for religion comes from. I also grew up religous, went to biblle study and all that. And then in my teenage years, I figured out my bisexuality and that is when I understood that Christianism as it is now would never accept me. That is why i drifted away from it, and still get heated when I talk about religion with my religious friends. It is so hard for me to understand how people can engage in Christianism or islam and still be allies. I love my friends dearly, but at the same time I think they are being hypocrites to their own religion. The representatives of those religions will forever disregard LGBTQ people, how can you at the same time attend pride and say you love everyone, its so weird to me..
I can relate to you Ryan. Growing up with quilt and the fear that you will never be good enough for heaven is emotionally abusive! I still believe in God, a loving, accepting, and forgiving God. I have no qualms in disliking organized religion.
Lol that's how i got stuck in young adult leadership in church... i walked up the stage one day, took the mic and started singing... then i regret doing it because it seems like i was unsatisfied with the lead singer 😅...
The worst part is that most people don't know that the word homosexual wasn't even put in the bible until the 60's and since then many passages have been changed to fit man narrative to where I feel at this point the only person I trust is God.
I believe he loves me no matter what and religion, being man made, is absolutely not something I pay any attention to and as far as the bible goes, It's best to research the original translation.
Specially when it comes to being gay. The original translation of the bible does not state anything about men going to hell for laying with other men, the original translation is that man should not lay with boys but passages in the bible have been changed to fit a certain narrative that can definitely make gay boys and girls growing up in church today feel like their damned to hell and that's not what God is about. God is love and he loves everyone.
As someone who grew up with a more mild experience of religion in usually only going on holidays tho still intense in the fact that I was baptized, did confession, confirmation, and communion so did church school for a couple of years in elementary, I was still severely affected by the negativity of church against queer people. I felt that impact regardless and struggled with myself because of what I had heard or been told. I 100% agree with what Ryan said about the fear mongering surrounding hell. It’s terrifying as a child and even today can still feel that way. Like if anything is indoctrination it is organized religion. That awful threat of hell disgusts me and makes me feel for all the queer and trans children out there and any poor child subjected to it. I went through a period in high school of intense love for god and church and all that to try and make myself feel better and thinking it would make my life better and I could ignore my queerness. Spoiler alert: it doesn’t work!! Sorry for long rant but I felt that guilt even as someone not so deep into it. Also love that Ryan was a fruity child😂embrace it Ryan! Especially the limp wrist!
Very important topic. I hate that religion is so restrictive:(. I grew up in a very liberal queer friendly church in Germany and in the time of my coming out it wasn't a problem at all. But I really understand your point of view and am very sad that it's still a topic we are talking about 🥲
Catholic Christian raised here! Thank you sooo much for this conversation: we have the same age/queer experience and this is the first time I heard someone share my viewpoint on religion and how it affects growth
It's very comforting knowing there's someone out there processing the same things ❤
Thank you for an interesting video, I just wanna say that there was a weird echo in the sound that distracted me a bit.
BTW I really like how you can disagree with each other without getting offensive and how you respect each other's opinions and always try to understand your partner's view, keeping an open mind.
This was one of the most insightful conversations I've heard about Religion and Queer identity in a while well done
Great content! I'm a Christian and a lesbian AND Lebanese lol triple homicide so I totally relate to everything that was said although I still keep my faith ❤
Thanks for sharing your journey with religion and how it affects your sexual identity. So much of what you shared resonated with my experiences. It really takes alot to own your truth and become your authentic self.
why when you guys said "fruity" I said "oh my god like you guys!" XD love you guys!
OMG first of all, you two are sooo cute!! I LOVE, LOVE this conversation. Thank you sooo much for doing this, it's such an important conversation that I don't really see on the internet. It's crazy to me how much I relate to both of you, more so Joe, crazy considering Im a black gay guy from South Africa. Pretty much had what sounds like a similar experience as Joe growing up queer and in a christian home.
Thank you for sharing. I consider myself a queer Christian. (homo-romantic demisexual) I grew up episcopalian going to Sunday school and church every Sunday, going to bible camp, during the day during summer break, in HS youth group. I grew up episcopalian (American branch of the Anglican church i.e. Church of England).
I remember when I was being harassed in school for being gay (eventhough I was not out) praying to be straight. Church was not anti-LGBTQ matter of fact our priest voted to elect the first gay bishop in the church.
I at one point briefly walked away from Christianity in that I stopped identifying but in practice it was more a period where I deconstructed my faith and rebuilt it, in what I would say was a communion with God and through God's inspiration. In the theological and spiritual queer affirming sources that I allowed into my life.
I have also found profound strength in my faith through that process to deal with the challenges (and even hatred I have experienced as a queer man). It has also been a source of strength in dealing with both ends of my bipolar disorder especially as my mania gets dysphoric and often careening into a mixed episode. Where I've often been psychotic, not in the hearing voices or hallucinating, but in living in a reality that is not real and is actually divorced from actual reality.
I've wound up in hospital twice for such episodes (probably should have a few other times, if not came close) the last stay was around Thanksgiving of 2020 I had gone manic and it got dysphoric paranoid delusions of persecution, then into a full blown psychotic mixed episode where I was highly suicidal (plan means etc) believed 1000% reality that everyone could read my mind where out to get me, wanted me to end myself, but where trying to trick me into thinking they couldn't read my mind, eventhough in my mind's eye I could "hear" what they where thinking.
It ended in a week long hospital stay, a botched two week return to work followed by a 4 week leave of absence (which used up my last 2 weeks sick time followed by two weeks vacation time, then more vacation time during the return process) to avoid another stay with 2-3 times a week visits with my psychiatrist.
Then a stepped return to work over the next 2-3 weeks. My faith is a big part of what got me through that and other such episodes in my life. (Started having them at 16)
I have a complicated relationship with other Christians though, especially those that try to use faith to hurt others. I try to be charitable in how I interact with them that they may just be coming from a place of not understanding and of having had poor intellectual ceriousity. But I also feel they are not really taking on-board Jesus teachings but being the pharaohs instead and gate keeping with their own biases as part of the rules, which I find hard to be charitable about and hard to see as true believers nor as members of the community of faith.
A good Discussion. FOr me, I never really understood church. It never made sense to me, I didn't understand why everyone was just believing what was written in this book that had no evidence behind it. They couldn't answer questions I had. I think also the fact that my Dad never went to church with my mother and me helped me question it. Cuz why wasn't Dad going? "Oh he doesn't believe it" My Dad was a brilliant man and if he didn't believe it, there had to be a reason. My own queerness didn't really come into play until much much later, by the time I came out I had't been to church in probably over a decade. But I as fascinated by religion, i studied it a lot, and just found all of it so weird, the 3 most popular religions are all just offshoots of each other, and prior to their rise EVERYONE had polythesitic beliefs that predate the big 3, so how could ANY of the big 3 be right if we KNOW that culture and art, and science existed BEFORE them? Just a lot of logic questions before the hatred ever became a thing I was even aware of. But Im with Ryan, I actively dislike organized religion. I am decidedly an athiest, I don't beleive in a god or heaven or hell, or any of it. And if by chance there is, no human has ever gotten any of it right. but the various lore and mythologies are fun to play with in terms of story and creativity.
Wow! This is sooo insightful, because I was raised christian and has come to terms with being gay.
I’m praying for everyone in this comment section that has been hurt by someone of the church and turned their back on Jesus. He is not a man that has hurt you. If you feel conviction in your heart at any time I pray you lean into it and let it guide you to truth. He is the only love and the only truth. I grew up Catholic and was hurt by many christian’s but it was ultimately Jesus that saved me from committing self-cancellation. I pray whatever sounds, traumas, or attacks the enemy has thrown at you are bound and thrown into the lake of fire and that you are set free in JESUS name!
Love your channel and I'm sure you've helped and encouraged loads of people to speak out or even come out and talking about religion is so important.☺
I haven't seen you guys since "what should we eat today." You have evolved in a great way. The community needs good thinkers. It needs to be clear, we are valid thinkers and contributors.
Joe and Ryan, as a Christian who experiences both same and opposite sex attraction, I wanted to let you know, especially Ryan, that I am truly sorry for your negative experiences in the church, in general and also in terms of you discovering your sexuality, and how that has led you to feel resentment and the need to leave religion altogether.
Personally, in my journey of struggling with same sex attraction and slowly sharing it with others in my church, I have been met with overwhelmingly positive responses and have been genuinely shown Christ's love through the incredible response of the Christians around me, who so often can be lumped together and demonised as being homophobic and hateful, when in reality there are true Christians out there who embody the love of Christ and will not discriminate or treat you differently just because you experience same sex attraction.
It breaks my heart to hear that what I experienced was not the same for you. I'd love to encourage both of you to continue to seek true Christianity, separated from any of the toxicity that you have been exposed to. I found that testimonies of ssa/gay/bi Christians especially helpful and encouraging (heaps of them on the web, good to be discerning w/ them also), particularly when I was deeply struggling with reconciling my sexuality with my faith.
I promise you, there is a real love, hope and assurance that can be found in Jesus.
Lots of love, Levi :)
I'm single to this day due to the church upbringing and my family, mainly the parents and older brother not being entirely accepting to the LGBTQ+ community. They are getting better, but you can still see they all struggle with fully accepting it. I try not to push it or really show off my pride for who I am, just live a quiet and personal life. One of the rules they told me when I came out was no PDA in front of them, but my future boyfriend or husband was always welcome. So I didn't see that as full acceptance and found it easier to just be single vs. having to date someone in secret or not be able to be our true selves around everyone.
Thank you for each sharing your experiences and story and explaining where you are at now. What a topic to talk about! I imagine it might attract some extreme comments. Good on you for discussing it with honesty and openness and understanding. You are both very good for each other. Listening to you respectfully and thoughtfully discuss this topic from different perspectives/experiences was refreshing and I really appreciated this. Thank you. Well done. Great post.
I’m honestly struggling so hard right now with my sexuality. I grew up in a religious household and I’m already distant from my family as it is. I know that if I am honest with them, I will be completely cut off and it feels shitty.
So enjoyed this guys! Great subject and super insights.
Very enlightening conversation guys. Thank you for sharing your perspectives!
Really good conversation, guys! I think a lot of us queer people can relate to some of your experiences ‘cause we live in a christian society.
The thing is being gay is not a sin. I was so lucky to have found this out, if I hadn't I probably would have committed you know what. There are a lot of scholars that accurately interpret the Bible, especially about homosexuality. One of my people to learn from is Dan McClellan.
I can relate in so many ways. Thank you for this video!! Now I don’t feel so alone with what I’ve experienced.
Do you guys get hate from your people who are still in church?
The most interesting and honest vlog you have ever posted.
Thank you for talking about this subject. Wish it was longer.
ty for this episode from a former church kid!!
loooool minorly triggered by the singing at the end of the vid
everytime i accidently scroll through a christian rock radio station on a road trip it happens.
i get bitter about how much i've internalized from growing up evangelistic!
i feel it every time i learn that others don't have some of the same "norms" that i have and realizing that my brain is filled with some really useless bible knowledge
MORE VLOGS 👹👹🗣️ - vincent
I identify with both experiences. Also I’ve left the church but I still listen to *some* gospel genres/artists.
🤍✨.
Thank you for talking about this and thank you for your courage too,
Before reading below plz don't feel like I'm saying your wrong or teaching u how to feel, it is just a thought:
Something small I wanna let you guys and anyone reading to think about it is, one of the way one is able to raise themselves or their kids away from religion is if they grasp their hate or detest of religion. I completely feel both sides and from the way Ryan reacts it reminds me why I dislike religion and its culture because the pain overweights everything and even logic.
It is ok to feel like shutting off but also remember to also give your self time to think and heal through the pain because it can get ugly believe me I feel u. Take your time before anything and if after the time you still feel like your done and so will be your children that is very fine.
Thanks once again 💫.
organized religion lead to internalized homophobia, for me!
I’ve got some major healing to do 😭
Such an important vlog. The problem is more Religious Leaders as all religions can learn and adapt as some have..
Thank you for having this conversation.
THE SINGING AT THE END 🤣
Podcast on How did you guys meet?
God has nothing to do with religion (being religious).
The collective ego of human beings invented religion (being religious) - a projection of what/who they think God is and what "the rules" are.
God doesn't give a shit if you are gay, straight, bi, etc... Just be at peace and know you are Loved. 💜
This was a great convo… relate strongly with this
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts.
OMG. Thank you so much for sharing about this very important topic!
This was needed. Thank you 🫶🫶
i love these talk-based videos sm
Another captivating episode. Thank you guys 😊
I love these mini podcasts
Religion led to me downplaying my queerness for 20 years....when I let go of it I felt like a free bird....so I really resonated with Ryan's pov
Church songs definitely hit different 😅
I disagree with Joe and more with Ryan in this topic. I do not think it’s just an issue with people. I think it has a lot to do with the religious belief itself. The more you look at the belief, the less it makes sense. A father who loves you but wants to send you into eternal damnation if you don’t want him in your life. A father who so loved his kids but drowned them all when they were being bad except his favorite one. It’s abusive and toxic belief towards children, LGBT, minority religions, and women. And this is when you remember that religion was written by people and it carried the negative bias the people who wrote it had. Even worse, the fact that you cannot question the belief if you are a part of a church makes the system unlikely to change which inhibits growth and perpetuates toxic cycles.
What about other religions besides Christianity like Buddhism or other belief/knowledge systems like Veganism? Curious of your opinions in terms of organized belief systems.