Your dad is amazing. He is really cool. I love the way he stops and listens while closing his eyes thinking deeply before giving a wonderful response. You really are a fortunate girl!
Man... I am IMPRESSED by your father! What a well spoken, intelligent, curious and interesting fellow! On behalf of the rest of us atheists... you should really thank your lucky stars (or genetics) that you have such a down to Earth and all around awesome father to hold such conversations with. It's like you're both discovering and questioning the world around you - together. That's how it should be. And thank you for sharing such intimate videos with us. Real dope!
I wish I had the talks you have with your dad with my dad. Mine's an intelligent man, educated, but Christian and firm in his beliefs. The man is a scientist but believes in literal demons. It makes me feel bad inside is all...
Your dad's the only other supremely wise man (other than myself) who I've heard mention a lack of motivation as being a problem in/for/with a manufactured mind (can't call 'em "artificial" as it would be a real mind/brain, even if not a living/biological one). Nice to hear from you, both. :)
Has your Dad ever read "The Emotion Machine: Commonsense Thinking, Artificial Intelligence, and the Future of the Human Mind" by Marvin Minsky? He would agree with your Dad that emotion is a key component of consciousness, and Antonio Damasio would agree. He wrote: "The Feeling of What Happens: Body, Emotion and the Making of Consciousness."
You're lucky to have such an intelligent and enlightened dad. My ol' man was a good guy but he had his mind closed and poisoned by religion. I was never able to talk to him like this. I wish I could have. I'd happily spend an afternoon chatting with your dad.
@light1986lover "I've studied programming and I know programs couldn't create consciousness even if they were able to develop or evolve by their own." I don't think you know any such thing: watch?v=77XBZHJcoK4
This is what we should aim for instead of indoctrination.Having meaningful conversations with parents mesmerized by the world and mysteries surrounding it.
I tend to differ with part of what your dad said Laura. Around 6:05 he states that Science does not put people into groups whereas religion does. Science does compartmentalise - loo at psychology: it tries to groups people according to personality, traits etc. Science has a wide range of disciplines contained within it, where knowledge is specialised; even in a discipline like mathematics there are also groupings. Mankind tried to put people in a box so that it can control people - it uses both science and religion to achieve this.
"Fact" - A thing that is indisputably the case. One without religion could dispute many different points of views that one with religion wouldn't like/believe. Also, the only things unexplained, strange and odd, have not went through enough examination to find an answer for it. Take if from someone who has been on both sides; religion can only explain so much. Once it hits that point and your questions are still unanswered, you may/may not realize that "god" could NOT be the center of it all.
personally I think naturally we DO want to know how things work. When we as kids ask 'why is the sky blue' or 'what are the stars', adults traditionally didn't know the scientific reasons (although technically it is a different thing to ask WHY vs HOW) and would shoot us down with "it just is" or, more easily, "God made it that way". This disables us to think critically, to seek explanations for our observations with a semi-scientific method
On your "What is life" topic, I think a good way of putting it is "Any structure with a Cellular composition, whether single-cellular or multi-cellular." I had this discussion with my older brother when I told him that Fire had all the attributes of Life and he suggested that. As for your Computer/Emotion topic, I think the best program is a kind of Empathy system. That in and of itself is a desire and want, so that could be a solution.
I originally came here just to watch your newly released video as I usually do and, unexpectedly, you guys started talking about AI, which is the main subject of an essay that I am writing right now for my instructor. Please thank your dad in my behalf for mentioning John Smart's work; I looked up his work and it gave me enough material and ideas to produce an outstanding essay! And I thank you too for uploading this very interesting conversation!
@light1986lover If you actually studied at a university you would know that proving a negative is especially hard. I guess that's why you don't even attempt to prove your assumption. Also there is this thing you should look up. It's called evolutionary programming. I have no idea what that reference point you speak about is or why a conscious program would need it though. Care to elaborate?
google swarm intelligence. I think that for a computer to become sentient, it would have to incorporate some form of SI, maybe the swarm would be made up of memory addresses, or structs. I think this has already been researched. The system would then have to undergo evolution, just like "real" living systems have done (the brain being the swarm of cells). By evolution the non-beneficial parts would be weeded out, giving better conditions for beneficial parts. Oh well, I'm rambling Cheers
@alaskafido Sorry to tell you, but you failed. ;) I usually find myself with more empathy then most people. That's defined by our actions that drive us into possible conflict. When you lie to your sister, what you do is avoiding conflict with her, becouse that's what would arise if you were to tell her truth; She could be hurt and her reaction would project it's negativity on you Instead of telling her truth and letting her know that it's ok even so, you just avoid that conflict = selfish.
I wish I could have intelligent conversations with my immediate family. Most of the time, such 'conversations' end up in disrespectful interruptions, meaningless platitudes, and condescending or ageist remarks. It's sad, really. If I ever have kids, I'll make a concerted effort to not repeat my family's communication breakdowns...
In sum, I think we were raised/culturally inclined to accept the simplest answer, but I don't think we're naturally predisposed to do so. Therefore, maybe in the future, given that more adults receive a post-secondary education, parents and teachers will be more knowledgable and more patient with answering the questions of scientifically curious children!!!
@alaskafido #2 But it's really ironic that you make such assumptions, that someone makes assumptions. Out of nowhere a statement is made that you might in your nature, be not at all what you precive to be, and you've just got to assume that someone who made such statement just has to be evil, twisted and wrong in the first place.
@TrianosDellas I thought he was New Zealander personally. Maybe I'm insane. Or stupid. Or both. I'm not familiar with NZ accents, but it's not Canadian, and doesn't sound English to me. His phonology sounds very disturbingly like Ray Comfort's phonological substitutions.
Actually its true, physicists are developing computer chips to put in your head, this acts as a sim card for your brain, these chips will make you learn things 10,000 times faster, and have double the memory space, if you dont believe me then look up michio kaku
I've got one thing to say about feelings and lying to protect them. That's bullshit. If I lie, then only to protect myself from someone elses feelings that would affect me negativelly. You don't lie to someone out of empathy. You lie to avoid conflict, and that's the only reason for it.
it sounds like you have a mix between an american southern accent and an english accent. I'm guessing you were raised in Britain till at least your mid teens and than moved to the American south. Would this be an accurate assumption?
Regarding the "hot pot" discussion: I think the problem is that there are many who use the external world as a validation of their internal beliefs/biases. A more sckeptical mind wil base their internal beliefs on the external world.
You are so fortunate to have a dad like yours. My father introduced me to the wonders of science but it was within the limits of his indoctrination. I could never have a open conversation like this with my father.
Do you have any reason for stating this or are you just throwing something out because you think it sounds cool and you think it sounds like it makes sense while both assumptions are totally wrong....
You have a great dad. I wish i could have a similar chat with my daughter. I adopted her when she was 8 years old. The damage was already done by then. She is a devout christian.
when he talked about the pot, i first thought he talked about weed. I thought, well hellooo? we put some pot aside... but then it turned out to be a simple cooking utensil.
@FactVSReligion You guys talk about some Ted talks? It got me interested! :D Could you supply some relevant keywords to find the videos you were talking about at 24:46?
I am loving you and your dad's relationship. A real conversation!!! Not a parent forcing their views on their child while belittling your thoughts. Sooo nice!
most of my family believe in god and i just dont get it.i cant relate to them anymore.its so frustrating to listen to them.i love them but arrrgggghhhh.
Your dad's awesome! This was actually, surprisingly (because I've thought quite a bit about all this stuff already), very insightful! Thanks for posting.
@eldorado61guy Congratulations! I'm ok with your disagreement on the ethics of absolutist rules. I am, however, baffled by your completely weird assertion that the video is "all image." Technically all videos are "all image" in that videos contain images. But if it were truly ALL image without substantive content, then it's odd that we'd react by spontaneously having an argument about ethics in the comments of this video, isn't it? Pretty strange reaction for both us, hmm? ;)
@eldorado61guy It was actually exactly in the context she put it. Truth itself can sometimes be damaging. I didn't lie. I simply omitted the truth because it would have been hurtful without any benefit. One who lies may not be a friend, but my friend appreciated me omitting the truth. It was the most ethical decision in that case. "ALWAYS tell the truth" is an absolutist rule which isn't a very good determiner for ethical behavior. Absolutist rules side-step reasonable thought.
@eldorado61guy It depends. Years ago, I was in a very awkward situation that had nothing to do with me where I learned some truth about a friend's life that I knew would demolish him at the time. Years later, when he was in a better place, I told him the truth and he THANKED me for NOT telling him sooner. He actually called it a "noble and selfless" decision to withhold the truth from him instead of thrusting his life into turmoil at a bad time. Honesty is NOT always the best policy.
I loved the AI discussion, it's a thing that I've looked at with the AI, Hadaly, from Black Hat Magick. I've written up a discussion of if she's just a reflection of the pathetic fallacy (emotions added to objects) or if she just models human or semi-human behavior enough to be indistinguishable and if that's all that matters to give her humanity.
Thanks for sharing. How I wish I could have that with me pops. Sadly, he's as committed a Creationist as they get. We can't even talk about the weather without nearly getting into a fist fight. Count yourself very fortunate.
@RichoRosai My online name was Flynn Taggart for the longest time. lol And I was fascinated with demons smelling like rotten lemons. lol I'm assuming you've read the books. =P
On consciousness, is it really a product of feeling? I think it's more to do with awareness. I wouldn't consider a leper unconscious, for example. Just thoughts.
I like this convo with your dad, very interesting, my hat goes to you for staying true to yourself thru your youtube journey as well as journey of life ;o)
It's obvious that being thoughtful and articulate runs in the family.
Your dad is amazing. He is really cool. I love the way he stops and listens while closing his eyes thinking deeply before giving a wonderful response. You really are a fortunate girl!
Man... I am IMPRESSED by your father! What a well spoken, intelligent, curious and interesting fellow!
On behalf of the rest of us atheists... you should really thank your lucky stars (or genetics) that you have such a down to Earth and all around awesome father to hold such conversations with. It's like you're both discovering and questioning the world around you - together. That's how it should be.
And thank you for sharing such intimate videos with us. Real dope!
I wish I had the talks you have with your dad with my dad. Mine's an intelligent man, educated, but Christian and firm in his beliefs. The man is a scientist but believes in literal demons. It makes me feel bad inside is all...
I always love it when you do these kinds of videos, Laura.
Your dad's the only other supremely wise man (other than myself) who I've heard mention a lack of motivation as being a problem in/for/with a manufactured mind (can't call 'em "artificial" as it would be a real mind/brain, even if not a living/biological one). Nice to hear from you, both. :)
Has your Dad ever read "The Emotion Machine: Commonsense Thinking, Artificial Intelligence, and the Future of the Human Mind" by Marvin Minsky?
He would agree with your Dad that emotion is a key component of consciousness, and Antonio Damasio would agree. He wrote: "The Feeling of What Happens: Body, Emotion and the Making of Consciousness."
You're lucky to have such an intelligent and enlightened dad. My ol' man was a good guy but he had his mind closed and poisoned by religion. I was never able to talk to him like this. I wish I could have.
I'd happily spend an afternoon chatting with your dad.
@light1986lover "I've studied programming and I know programs couldn't create consciousness even if they were able to develop or evolve by their own."
I don't think you know any such thing:
watch?v=77XBZHJcoK4
What career field does your Dad work in? I would imagine something like Education, Psychology?
This is what we should aim for instead of indoctrination.Having meaningful conversations with parents mesmerized by the world and mysteries surrounding it.
I tend to differ with part of what your dad said Laura. Around 6:05 he states that Science does not put people into groups whereas religion does. Science does compartmentalise - loo at psychology: it tries to groups people according to personality, traits etc. Science has a wide range of disciplines contained within it, where knowledge is specialised; even in a discipline like mathematics there are also groupings. Mankind tried to put people in a box so that it can control people - it uses both science and religion to achieve this.
"Fact" - A thing that is indisputably the case. One without religion could dispute many different points of views that one with religion wouldn't like/believe. Also, the only things unexplained, strange and odd, have not went through enough examination to find an answer for it. Take if from someone who has been on both sides; religion can only explain so much. Once it hits that point and your questions are still unanswered, you may/may not realize that "god" could NOT be the center of it all.
personally I think naturally we DO want to know how things work. When we as kids ask 'why is the sky blue' or 'what are the stars', adults traditionally didn't know the scientific reasons (although technically it is a different thing to ask WHY vs HOW) and would shoot us down with "it just is" or, more easily, "God made it that way". This disables us to think critically, to seek explanations for our observations with a semi-scientific method
On your "What is life" topic, I think a good way of putting it is "Any structure with a Cellular composition, whether single-cellular or multi-cellular."
I had this discussion with my older brother when I told him that Fire had all the attributes of Life and he suggested that.
As for your Computer/Emotion topic, I think the best program is a kind of Empathy system. That in and of itself is a desire and want, so that could be a solution.
I originally came here just to watch your newly released video as I usually do and, unexpectedly, you guys started talking about AI, which is the main subject of an essay that I am writing right now for my instructor. Please thank your dad in my behalf for mentioning John Smart's work; I looked up his work and it gave me enough material and ideas to produce an outstanding essay! And I thank you too for uploading this very interesting conversation!
@light1986lover
If you actually studied at a university you would know that proving a negative is especially hard. I guess that's why you don't even attempt to prove your assumption.
Also there is this thing you should look up. It's called evolutionary programming.
I have no idea what that reference point you speak about is or why a conscious program would need it though. Care to elaborate?
google swarm intelligence. I think that for a computer to become sentient, it would have to incorporate some form of SI, maybe the swarm would be made up of memory addresses, or structs. I think this has already been researched.
The system would then have to undergo evolution, just like "real" living systems have done (the brain being the swarm of cells). By evolution the non-beneficial parts would be weeded out, giving better conditions for beneficial parts.
Oh well, I'm rambling
Cheers
@alaskafido
Sorry to tell you, but you failed. ;)
I usually find myself with more empathy then most people. That's defined by our actions that drive us into possible conflict. When you lie to your sister, what you do is avoiding conflict with her, becouse that's what would arise if you were to tell her truth; She could be hurt and her reaction would project it's negativity on you
Instead of telling her truth and letting her know that it's ok even so, you just avoid that conflict = selfish.
I wish I could have intelligent conversations with my immediate family. Most of the time, such 'conversations' end up in disrespectful interruptions, meaningless platitudes, and condescending or ageist remarks. It's sad, really.
If I ever have kids, I'll make a concerted effort to not repeat my family's communication breakdowns...
In sum, I think we were raised/culturally inclined to accept the simplest answer, but I don't think we're naturally predisposed to do so. Therefore, maybe in the future, given that more adults receive a post-secondary education, parents and teachers will be more knowledgable and more patient with answering the questions of scientifically curious children!!!
@alaskafido
#2
But it's really ironic that you make such assumptions, that someone makes assumptions.
Out of nowhere a statement is made that you might in your nature, be not at all what you precive to be, and you've just got to assume that someone who made such statement just has to be evil, twisted and wrong in the first place.
@TrianosDellas I thought he was New Zealander personally. Maybe I'm insane. Or stupid. Or both. I'm not familiar with NZ accents, but it's not Canadian, and doesn't sound English to me. His phonology sounds very disturbingly like Ray Comfort's phonological substitutions.
Actually its true, physicists are developing computer chips to put in your head, this acts as a sim card for your brain, these chips will make you learn things 10,000 times faster, and have double the memory space, if you dont believe me then look up michio kaku
I've got one thing to say about feelings and lying to protect them.
That's bullshit. If I lie, then only to protect myself from someone elses feelings that would affect me negativelly. You don't lie to someone out of empathy. You lie to avoid conflict, and that's the only reason for it.
it sounds like you have a mix between an american southern accent and an english accent. I'm guessing you were raised in Britain till at least your mid teens and than moved to the American south. Would this be an accurate assumption?
Regarding the "hot pot" discussion: I think the problem is that there are many who use the external world as a validation of their internal beliefs/biases.
A more sckeptical mind wil base their internal beliefs on the external world.
You are so fortunate to have a dad like yours. My father introduced me to the wonders of science but it was within the limits of his indoctrination. I could never have a open conversation like this with my father.
Do you have any reason for stating this or are you just throwing something out because you think it sounds cool and you think it sounds like it makes sense while both assumptions are totally wrong....
You have a great dad. I wish i could have a similar chat with my daughter. I adopted her when she was 8 years old. The damage was already done by then. She is a devout christian.
@fantasy0coach
He sounds a lot like John Lennon, lol. Same sort of accent, is he from Liverpool?
when he talked about the pot, i first thought he talked about weed. I thought, well hellooo? we put some pot aside...
but then it turned out to be a simple cooking utensil.
@FactVSReligion You guys talk about some Ted talks? It got me interested! :D
Could you supply some relevant keywords to find the videos you were talking about at 24:46?
Your Dad is interesting. He's someone I'd like to drink coffee with in a small cafe and talk with.
I am loving you and your dad's relationship. A real conversation!!! Not a parent forcing their views on their child while belittling your thoughts. Sooo nice!
most of my family believe in god and i just dont get it.i cant relate to them
anymore.its so frustrating to listen to them.i love them but arrrgggghhhh.
Your dad's awesome! This was actually, surprisingly (because I've thought quite a bit about all this stuff already), very insightful! Thanks for posting.
Empathy is always best kept in check the way I see it. As are friends; better kept (emotionally) at arms length where they can't do much damage, imo.
You and your father are very insightful people. It's a very lovely thing.
To sit with you and him and simply talk would bring much joy to my day.
If you want a computer to have feelings, give it sensory transducers/inputs and (as you rightly say) a sense of self preservation/"fear" of death.
you're lucky to have this, I have a similar relationship with my father, but I've never thought of recording one of our conversations until now.
This conversation is awesome. I wish I could have talks like this with my parents but alas, they are hard core right-winger religious nutters.
So that's where your slight English accent comes from. Were you born in the U.K. and raised in the U.S.?
P.S. your dad rocks!
My dad passed away 10 yrs ago. I disagree that killing anyone for their beliefs is perfectly logical, unless your goal is suicide.
It is a well known fact that EVERYTHING unexplained, strange and odd, must be caused by God. However, I'm sure you know that.
@asumazilla Martin Luther certainly believed it was okay to lie, if the lie brought someone closer to salvation through Christ.
Wow. Someone managed to dislike this pleasant, intelligent, open-minded, genial conversation? Must've been a mis-click. Yep.
this guy's gray beard is a symbol of wisdom, his black jacket a symbol of coolness, and accent a symbol of awesomeness.
@extion Hell yeah. I used to read and reread those novels all day during school and draw Barons of Hell in my notebook.
yeah scientists making jokes like "whooops how did that freudian slip get in there?.."
I always wondered about that awesome accent of yours! I'm english, but it's nice to hear it mixed with another.
@eldorado61guy Congratulations! I'm ok with your disagreement on the ethics of absolutist rules. I am, however, baffled by your completely weird assertion that the video is "all image." Technically all videos are "all image" in that videos contain images. But if it were truly ALL image without substantive content, then it's odd that we'd react by spontaneously having an argument about ethics in the comments of this video, isn't it? Pretty strange reaction for both us, hmm? ;)
@eldorado61guy It was actually exactly in the context she put it. Truth itself can sometimes be damaging. I didn't lie. I simply omitted the truth because it would have been hurtful without any benefit. One who lies may not be a friend, but my friend appreciated me omitting the truth. It was the most ethical decision in that case. "ALWAYS tell the truth" is an absolutist rule which isn't a very good determiner for ethical behavior. Absolutist rules side-step reasonable thought.
@eldorado61guy It depends. Years ago, I was in a very awkward situation that had nothing to do with me where I learned some truth about a friend's life that I knew would demolish him at the time. Years later, when he was in a better place, I told him the truth and he THANKED me for NOT telling him sooner. He actually called it a "noble and selfless" decision to withhold the truth from him instead of thrusting his life into turmoil at a bad time. Honesty is NOT always the best policy.
I loved the AI discussion, it's a thing that I've looked at with the AI, Hadaly, from Black Hat Magick. I've written up a discussion of if she's just a reflection of the pathetic fallacy (emotions added to objects) or if she just models human or semi-human behavior enough to be indistinguishable and if that's all that matters to give her humanity.
Your dad is a liar, atoms don't make that noise, they make a clicking noise from the clockwork inside.
If you have not already read it I recommend "The Emperor's New Mind" by the physicist Sir Roger Penrose
@FactVsReligion thank the nonexistent sky daddy, you are back with a good video with youre wise father.
Your father should have his own channel. What to call it? Hmmmm, "Shit My Dad Says" is already taken...
Thanks for sharing. How I wish I could have that with me pops. Sadly, he's as committed a Creationist as they get. We can't even talk about the weather without nearly getting into a fist fight. Count yourself very fortunate.
Speaking of suicide bombers and engineered emotions:
watch?v=14rTSF-A4Uw
@RichoRosai My online name was Flynn Taggart for the longest time. lol And I was fascinated with demons smelling like rotten lemons. lol I'm assuming you've read the books. =P
I'm pretty sure most religions say is it OK to lie. To help people discover the great truth.
Humans have enough emotions for both us and AI. They need only couple their iterations to us.
@mjlgaard He does look like him, doesn't he? He also sort of resembles Paul McCartney too.
On consciousness, is it really a product of feeling? I think it's more to do with awareness. I wouldn't consider a leper unconscious, for example. Just thoughts.
I like this convo with your dad, very interesting, my hat goes to you for staying true to yourself thru your youtube journey as well as journey of life ;o)
Reminds me of my own dad. I learned more from him than I did in school up to age of 16.
loved this any chance I can borrow your family Id love these type of conversations
Your daughter... looks alot like Cobie Smulders....
What type of sorcery is this!?
This is the third video i ever watch that i like before it ends.. truly interesting
well, as computers become more like humans, humans will become more like machine.
Not an American, so just from curiosity: is that how Canadian accent sounds like?
you realize I'm kidding? I'm atheist..And, I say stuff three times---sometimes.
Your dad reminds me of myself. Shit... If only there were more of us or we wouldn't grow up to be such loners in school.
Just one problem, consciousness is not an emergent property of computation.
It's nice you can talk to your dad like this. He seems like a really nice bloke. I wish I had a dad like yours.
I really enjoyed listening to this conversation. Thanks for uploading!
I'm a lil bit envious, i wish i could chat with my dad the way you do.
Your dad is very similar to my dad...just a teeny bit less grumpy :~)
When I was little we knew all about Phobos and Demios because of DOOM.
Now I understand the British nuances I always noticed in your accent!
Your old fella is a very sweet gentleman. Good listener isn't he?
Our fathers are our best examples, I wish my father is an atheist
Nice chat. "Dad speaks" should be a series on here, I'm sure it would be quite popular.
Just just "a boss". THE boss! This dad is a BOSS of FATHERS!
Cool. The fruit never falls far from the tree. Smart man.
@RdMrcr Definitely not any Canadian accent I've ever heard.
Seriously, what is UP with this family?! IT'S TOO AWESOME!
I pretty much have this all the time with my whoal family.
You should put your dad in more videos, great discussion.
"Jesus saves" makes totaly sence.. He takes half damage.
You've got awesome dad.
I wish mine was any where close.
@Mossasan Oh? And here I was betting on him being a coupon gatherer.
@philhellenes :)
If you ever get borred of your dad, can i have him? ^^
I never knew James Cameron was FactVsReligion's dad.
Really cool conversation to listen in on... Thanks for sharing!
Thank the gods the flashlights were explained...
Ask your dad if he likes RainbowDash