ENGLAND'S SCRUM PROBLEM SOLVED? | U20 WORLD CHAMPIONS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- The next generation of Englishmen claimed their first U20 World Championship since 2016. And they achieved it by, of all things, hammering the opposition at scrum time. Is this the start of the solution to England's achilles heel?
Billy Sela deserves a mention too. Was the starting Tighthead in the six nations and World Cup until he got injured. Also only 19 like the likes of Kpoku and Pollock so will be playing next year as well.
I agree he looked excellent until injured.
Good shout!
Olamide Sodeke too. Played mostly off the bench but he's 6'9" 125kg at 18 years old, massively physical and athletic to go with it.
@EggchasersRugby Tim maybe you could do a video about south African drug use in rugby as yet another springbok Sbu Nkosi has tested positive and looks to have ended his career. This follows on from 2 other springboks Elton Jantjies and Aphiwe Dyanti testing positive and ending their careers. Back in 2018 both Nkosi and Dyanti were set to be south africas next 2 star wingers now their careers are over. And not to long ago springbok hooker Chilli Boy Ralaphela was also banned for drug use and his career is over. And you wonder why people are saying their is a drug culture in south African rugby and it starts with the schoolboys.
@@user-nk9cw5md8l give it a rest mate
Worth mentioning that England didn't just dominate the French pack, but in the earlier games also destroyed the South African and Irish front rows. Billy Cela deserves a shout. He was injured for the final, but he's probably even better than Fasogbon.
Yeah Billy sela not seen yet but he was first choice tight head till he got injured. But Fasogbon was immense. Being honest I thought outside the scrum we weren’t that impressive but we completely dominated the scrum . Well done all the coaching staff as well.
I was impressed by the power of the fowards but also their energy, stamina, and their ability to recover between matches they just didn’t seem to tire. Credit must also go to the coaching team.
I would introduce "England apprentice" contracts for the most promising to ensure that they get the right coaching and top level match experience as quickly as possible. As Borthwick has alluded to, it is about accelerating the learning as opposed to just notching up caps. As you mention we should also introduce a "Jiff" system to maximise the opportunities for young English talent. That plus hybrid contracts to keep the best playing in the prem would do a lot to underpin the future pipeline of talent.
Jack Bracken is going to be the next big thing, one to look out for! Lightning ⚡⚡
Thé U20s were stunning but don’t forget the brilliant new Fin Baxter plus Beno Obano. And now we have the new boys Opoku-Fordjour and Afolabi Fasogbon. That’s a hell of a quartet.
Sorry - I forgot Billy Sela. Also stunning front row material. Five new exciting prospects.
Fasgogbon at TightHead and Opoku Fordjour at loose Head👍👍
A great opportunity for the English squad. Both the senior and U 20 squad are excellent this year.
Death. Taxes. Opoku-Fordjour scrum dominance. 😂
For 80 minutes.
Youth players are getting game time, just not in the Premiership, a lot are not yet ready. Players like George Martin and Jack van Poortvleit played at Leicester Lions in the National leagues before going to Tigers as adult players. Some to look out for who played in National 1 and the Championship include Toby Cousins, Tarek Haffar, Will Glister from the Saints, Tim Hoyt, Malelli Satala, Charlie Myall, Lewis Chessum from the Tigers, all dual registered and getting game time. Hopefully they will show in the Premiership Cup during the AI's and 6 Nation periods.
I watched all the England U20 Championship games. Really impressed by this young crop of players, they did a number even more impressively against the French in the 6N away when France brought in some of their top 14 stars to spoil the English party.
Really need to ensure there's a decent player pathway but it's down to club vs country again. Limiting the amount of forgiven born players and/or having a requirement to have x number of English qualified U23's in your squad would go a long way.
The semi against Ireland was the same. The scrum was the most dominant I have ever seen. I can't believe those props aren't good enough for the prem already
Different size to a mature prop - props don’t develop until their late 20s. But time to change that narrative and let them learn given our front row woes in the senior team.
Was nervous about playing Ireland in semis as I was impressed with Ireland all tournament . But as in the final against the french our scrum got us home. Wasn’t impressed with England outside of the scrum really. And as naive as I am around what goes on in the scrum , difficult to understand why these young lads don’t hold down a place in the premiership.
Rare, partisan and welcomed Tim!
Great chat Tim. Coming from a Saffa, I think that there are exciting English players heading to the 2027 WC. All good for rugby as a whole.
Here it is! Been waiting for this.
Me too!
England's eight beat France's fifteen. Some might say it was boring but I'd take it in a final every day of the week!🏴
Loving the channel Tim and think you thoroughly deserve the 100k followers coming soon!
Friday and Bellamy at half backs next season with Bracken out wide - awesome . Tuipoltou and Griffin to step up as well so all in all with the remaining cohort a great U20 batch
Love the video Tim as always! Have to say though I think the conversion of players from 2016 win is sort of the problem - one one could be claimed to be a starting England player, Will Stuart; the others have had bits and bobs. Maybe that’s linked to your game time point, I don’t know, but for a long time England have at-least-good U20s but five years later hardly any of them have made it
I suppose a hope on this is that Borthwick seems to be very dialled in to sorting out systemic things like this (e.g. U20s having same rush defence as seniors), so for once we may have a head coach who’s ‘on’ it…!
Completely agree Tim, interesting when interviews during the recent tour of Nz Borthwock and Jamie George both mentioned “learning” or younger players having the ability to learn could this be a signal the senior set up will be looking into these younger guys?
The one thing from the scrum shot that jumped into my eyes was Billy V with his head out of the scrum, not using his shoulders to push and one foot on the air.. really?? I think we all agree that he shouldn't even be in the squad let alone the match.. I think you forgot to mention Sela (prop) and Sodenke (lock) they also look really good. Watch all ur content, keep it coming..
We need to dump the residency issue. Junior Kpoku plays in France as well….
Kpoku is going to play for France. His family are over there
Afo Fasogbon is a lovely young man too. He has the temprament and attitude to excell. Last season he was injured in the Prem Cup then again playing for England U20 so didn't get a Prem game. One of the reasons Gloucester struggled last year, along with injuries at 10 and Hooker (not to mention Zack Mercer being out until December).
Thanks, as usual great analysis and some hope for the future. The U20 scrum was incredible.
Congrats to England ✌️🌹
The only thing that needs to be done is to give these guys proper game time. - Decent coaching staff will do it as they will see how the future could develop
Glad Sasha is playing for us since he can qualify for an ancestral visa and technically play for England.
Appreciate all the videos Tim. Thanks for all your hard work
Congratulations England!
Tim almost makes me want to support England
Bravo à vos jeunes.
I think letting England seniors play in France would open the doors for younger players. Just a point about front rows needing more time to develop Jason Leonard played in a world cup final aged 23, but they need game time.
The problem with that is players who can dominate scrums don't really settle in until their mid to late 20s which is a few years away for England yet
Completely agree.
Sorry I misspoke. I'm a Kiwi so it's not actually a problem. Love your content mate 👏
Good analysis, but I would say that putting that victory entirely down to the scrum is selling the team and the pack in particular a little short. The forwards dominated France in most aspects of the game. If England had been a bit more accurate in the first half it could have been a cricket score.
The backs were a bit more limited, but there were still some bright spots there too.
At loose head I think we are good for a while, genge Baxter and obano seem like a good trio to take into camps.
Tight head is a real issue tho. Asher Opoku-Fordjour has played both sides of the scrum so I can see him taking the tight head spot but he probably needs a year or two to develop his game before claiming the starting 3 shirt for England
Henry Pollock is a special talent and all the players mentioned have lots going for them especially the Sale prop ,however there is still a considerable gap between this level and professional men's rugby at the top level especially in the forwards, long term I'm hopeful but it's really difficult to compete against seasoned top notch internationals when you are just 20 or 21 . It's different if they are Pacific islanders by the way.
Brilliant squad
Henry Pollock probably has the best potential. He has very good game awareness, a lot energy and great over the ball. He's rapid although will probably slow a bit when he puts on bulk needed for senior rugby. The worry though is that England have so much depth in the back row it will probably be a while before he gets an opportunity. Although he still has another year in the U20s, so no rush.
The key to this is the reduction in the salary cap. Young prop gets to be no3 in the club squad TH lineup because not only are they affordable, the 1st £21grand doesn't count. So instead of ending up in the championship or nat1 they will get a chance.
Maybe… if premiership clubs were forced to employ fewer foreigners. But I wont hold my breath.
How they manage this batch to maybe be involved by next RWC will be fascinating
Very valid point in the need to get them game time. It's a similar situation for Ireland, we have good young players as well and where are they going to get the game time? Definitely jealous of the French setup
We need a proper Championship set-up: 10 Premiership teams is not enough selection space to bring on these youngsters. Also I am worried about "loans" and dual-registration as this distorts the Championship table. Nothing worse than supporting a Championship team and seeing a young superstar "ringer" appear for the opposition and wining them the match, not to be seen again.
Thank the Lord you have said it! Apparently there is a RFU inspired scheme to ensure that these U20 players gain more senior club rugby exposure. If this doesn’t happen it will be a travesty.
Yes, he’s Angus Hall. He’s a great lad.
I remember 20 -40 years ago England were known for their forwards and scrummaging
Great analysis Tim. If these players don’t get game time and a wasted then what is the point of the tournament they’ve won?!
That is an interesting plan. In Chasing the Sun 2, your voice was heard by the Springboks. I wonder if they listen in the UK?
I also thought Arthur Green was hugely impactful when he came on
One guy you missed out was Craig Wright, he looks a proper old school hooker, yes some of the lineout calls went astray, but that probably due to misunderstanding. He scrummed well, tackled well and did tons of work around the park . I like to see him along with Pollock getting some game time with Saints, mind you Pollock still has another year at U20
The scrum was awsome but you also will lose out in other areas. The scrum was great but I think many other players will pass out these props as players. The great props now also play great rugby . French props and beefeaters don’t seem to last very long . It’s all about how you develop them do it too early and you may regret it.
Not sure why the chiefs props get overlooked, iossifa scot, painter and street are very strong scrummager
I fairness to RFU, and i rarely say that,.the reduced squad sizes (with ringfenced academy places, i think) should help.
And the other massive advantage france have (Pro D2} the RFU are trying to get. But its hard to get thw current tier 2 sides to play ball.
I also thought the fly half Coen looked fantastic, i think hes still got another year at this level. Same with Braken
Tier 2 given almost none of the pie.
You forgot Billy Sela at Bath. Will be a returner next year and started ahead of Fasogbon before he was injured
Whilst I agree good for the long term future (5-10 years) but for the next 5 need to be scouting the premiership to find and develop the 25-33 age range.
The top international props are 28-35. Antonio 34, Baille 31, Ox 29, Malherbe 33, Porter 28, Furlong 31….
Suddenly Marler 34 and Cole 37 don’t seem that bigger age gap. Sinckler is a big loss and Genge is a quality player just unsure he has the mass to compete against the biggest of boys.
Baxter has slotted in well and an exception to the rule but unfortunately shows the lack of talent in that 25-33 age range. We need to find them and give them caps off the bench!
It is very hard to step up from under 20 to grown-ups.
U20 forwards don't always translate to full team.
Typically more all rounders and less scrum centric
Watch them fade into insignificance due to the English club system :(
Nope not for these players.
Ide deffo pick them against Wales in the 6 nations
Matt Gallagher has been signed by Benetton
The thing that stands out to me it seems it mostly comes down to the England squad are more physically developed than their under 20s counterparts. Will be interesting to see how they kick on and if the playing field gets levelled. Sela is another interesting one, probably at least 4th in the pecking order at bath so how does he get games b
Must mention Billy Sella
I hope you are right….I get disheartening by the current team not able to push a skin off a rice pudding and shockingly poor at the maul….
Urdu has the exact same problem up front which may be even worse considering there preformance in the semi final against England. They have no banned props comming in to play for the 4 provinces to help develop Irish props
I have long thought that Billy Vunipola should have converted to TH after the 2019 RWC.
scrum changes by world rugby made scrums stronger less scrums more dominance w/d england
The thing that is overlooked regarding u20 rugby is that size matters. Technically the English aren’t great. It was the poundage that got them there but that advantage disappears when stepping up
Until we address the foreign player issue we will be hugely impacted in development. RFU are too weak to do anything though, so it wont change any time soon.
Agree with you wholeheartedly about fast tracking the current U20s squad into the senior team and Giving them alot of senior rugby time with their clubs It has been Englands SHAME that clubs have gone and employed aS. African or Argentinian or foreign born player to play premiership rugby and totally forgotten to develop our own players When you look at the current S.African team 4 or 5 players have been delveloped by playing in the premiership F.DeKlerk - C.Reinbach - A.Esterhausen - F.Mosert - T.De.Toit and that can be said of the 2019 side and 2015 aswell The RFU badly needs to apply STRICT ENGLISH QUALFIED PLAYER RULES [ What France have based their JIFF rules on ] and not as in the past allow the clubs to fudge and dilute it
All of those players 'developed' by the prem were class before it... and capped before coming to the prem. Nonsense take.
@@MrBoboiscool You are correct and i apologise i forgot about A.Coeteze 2016 squad I would however say that The players where not WORLD CLASS till after playing in the premiership though That seemed to give them that little bit of an edge Also the principle was correct Premiership clubs regularly employed foreign players rather than develop English young talent Which was a disgrace
Best advice I can give other nations as to breed strong aggressive front row lads is ......... start eating lots of beef, lamb and pork on a braai and above all, start eating biltong from when kids are born.
Now you know what we know.
they dominated not just in the final but in every game except SA because the weather was so bad. the future is bright IMHO
Sitting on the fence. Splinter time again!
Why is Dan Kelly not considered for England? Are we not looking far a 12?
Tim, I know you dont like "getting the kids in" but if the adults are pants maybe that is the best policy?
I have never known such a weak English scrum. From the days of Fran Cotton, Stack Steven’s and Peter Wheeler in the 70’s and watching the Irish pack being man shamed for 80 mins around Twickenham in 2012 by an utterly dominant English scrum in which was the great Dan Cole!
People dont want to talk about it, but the forcing english players to play in england to play internationally doesnt help either. You end up with a bunch of plodders hanging blocking the pathway for youngsters when in reality they are sticking ariound because they are good prem players and think they might naybe just get a shot at england.
Loads of things you can do , France have JIFF, Scotland for its limited youngsters has an agreement in place to send them to london scottish... An english quota wont make a difference since as said teams will fill it with prem plodders, needs to be a age restricted thing, or force clubs to send these kids out to the championship and tell championship sides that funding depends on them playing. Prem cup has been very good for gametime at a level up from pure academy so atleast that is good.
The Wild Bunch.
I enjoy your content I tune in every week but I feel like this video is very reactional everyone has there time and we all know that a small percentage of these players will become england senior players.
I did reference the last England team to win the U20 WC, where 10 of the final 23 have played international rugby. That's an insane stat and certainly not a small percentage. Given this is the first England team to win that title since then, it is worthy of comparison/discussion.
Alas we're in an age where forwards don't win scrums, referees win scrums.
With a healthy topping of wonky put-ins.
What’s the wider trend of numbers who make it from U20 to senior ? The persons you named from 2016 haven’t become mainstays at senior England level…so is this really the main feeder?
Hmm, will the RFU now continue with their agenda to depower the scrum, or will they wait and see if the latest wonder boys can do the same to the Bok senior scrum?
Please change the title from solution to problem 🙏
Good spot
u20 success never leads to Professional rugby success. If only NZ, SA and Aus invested in their u20s as the NH teams and academies do.
Has worked in the past for the Boks. Think it was U19 or somethingbwhere Jake's team won and they formed the bulk of his RWC winning side as well.
Same coach though for both so something to be said about that.
Some gems also from U/20 winning sides have done well. Pollard comes to mind.
@@UlrichHoltzhausen For the Boks yes. Most of Jake Whites team comes from Peter De Villiers U20s. But I dont thin the SH invests in their rugby and academies as much as the NH sides do. Do we even put money in u20 rugby in South Africa? These boys look like a good team of individuals and it looked like the coach told them to improvise .
You can’t hope for the future by quoting from the 2016 team of which only a few have made a few England appearances. Your making videos on Icy facts
You’ve gotta stop this shit. France were not the overall better team.
Usual english over optimism Im afraid. Yes, the lads were awesome and powerful but these lads need to prove themselves at european level against the big frenchies. They are young, they would be the 2031 props not 2027.
I think you may be right about the timescale. My fear is we get worse before things get better
@@EggchasersRugby Not neccesarily, Genge for me is not a starter. He has far more impact off the bench. Let him sit and watch 50 minutes and get him clawing at the cage to let him out and the unleash him. Baxter for me is the next cab off the rank. 22 yrs old. Keeping Marler on the bench for Quins, he cant have any better mentors in Joe and Bomb. Rodd is a very mobile prop but has yet to prove he can scrummage at test level. Obano wouldve gone if not for his red card. Rapava ruskin is so injury prone but has such potential. The cupboards not bare but we such limited choice. Id like to see the A league back, the Saxons/ A side back as well. Playing teams such as Portugal, USA, Canada, Chile. If the younguns can mix it and shine then "if youre good enough, Youre old enough"
Youth needs their chance, not in is international but in their OWN leagues. You know, the same league who want bans on foreign based players representing England but happily bring foreigners into our league at the expense of our youth.
I still want to see the worlds best players in the UK but it aint gonna happen. They're going to France. Look after our own.
I think we’re a few good props away from winning a World Cup.