🛠 Tuning with Volumetric Efficiency and other VE fun facts | TECHNICALLY SPEAKING
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
- #haltech #vetuning #enginetuning
Volumetric Efficiency or VE is a measure of the actual amount of air that is moved through an engine vs the engine’s cubic capacity. Sounds simple right? Well, while the definition might appear simple the correct application of VE in engine tuning requires a bit more knowledge. If you're in a learning mood, grab a cup of your favorite beverage, find a comfortable chair, relax hit that PLAY button and let the knowledge flow into you.
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00:00 - intro
00:45 - VE basics
02:15 - Why is VE important in engine tuning
03:30 - Diving deeper into the VE details
05:00 - How turbos affect VE
07:40 - Engine Load or Manifold Pressure
09:00 - What information ECU needs
09:30 - How VE tuning works
Got a topic you'd like us to cover? Leave it in the comments section!
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Matt that was excellent
WARNING: Technical Content Ahead!
Volumetric Efficiency or VE is a measure of the actual amount of air that is moved through an engine vs the engine’s cubic capacity. Sounds simple right? Well, while the definition might appear simple the correct application of VE in engine tuning requires a bit more knowledge. If you're in a learning mood, grab a cup of your favourite beverage, find a comfortable chair, relax hit that PLAY button and let the knowledge flow into you...
Got a topic you'd like us to cover? Leave it in the comments section!
Shortcuts:
00:00 - intro
00:45 - VE basics
02:15 - Why is VE important in engine tuning
03:30 - Diving deeper into the VE details
05:00 - How turbos affect VE
07:40 - Engine Load or Manifold Pressure
09:00 - What information ECU needs
09:30 - How VE tuning works
Can’t wait to watch this
Damit it's not a air pump and you promptly describe how it's not it is the final refinery not an air pump other than that I like the video well explained VE
hqw would this stand against with whats happenig in the usa and could we beat it!!
This is a great companion to a lot of Gale Banks' manifold air density lectures.
Just a correction a supercharger is a restriction on intake efficiency just not the exhaust
This was one of your best videos. Well done! One of the best VE explanations put into the public space period.
Thanks:) Glad you liked it!
Agreed 👍
This video is just another great reason why I invested in a Haltech ECU. Will definitely be getting another 1 for my next build.
Right on!
Mat From haltech - "You cant measure air as a volume, its like me saying that im going to measure the weight of my arm in dollars"
Me - "hold my beer"
LOL
right? a dollar weighs about a gram
& there is 9071.85 grams in 20 #s
so it would weigh ~9072 dollars minimum for his left arm
Yeah if you know the right cartel you can definitely value body parts in dollars
Bravo!!! Finaly someone said it - the only thing that really matters is the mass, not volume. I had numerous number of arguments about it when people were trying to convince me that comparing the voulmes is the proper way of calculating VE...
Eggzactly! Charge volume will change with temperature, while charge mass is what you need to calculate A/F ratio!
@@tojiroh charge volume shouldn't change with temperature unless you've got a really flimsy intake manifold 😜 but yes the pressure will change with temp and hence the mass will change.
@@jsquared1013 or course! I was talking about intake/charge air temps, but manifold material can be a factor too. 😉🤓
So much better learning about this from Matt than the first time through back in college.
good work Matt, you make understanding VE tuning a bit easier.
This is fantastic mate, you’ve made a complex topic so clear 👌🏿
Great video and well laid out. Enjoy the higher detailed informational videos
I've watched this video about 10 times,its excellent!
Best explanation of VE so far I've seen
The only problem I have with this video is that I can only hit the like button once... :)
Great job, thanks!
Thanks:)
Once again I enjoyed myself, I really have to hand it to the individuals that makes these videos possible; awesome stuff! An ecu manufacturer that continues to make an effort to deliver more value on the dollar for every consumer, all while keeping the product as accessible as it is affordable; top marks!
Thanks gentlemen, and possibly ladies, already looking forward to the next one! Cheers!
Thanks for the kind words:)
Excellent... I never once wanted to jump forward from boredom hoping it will get better like most vids .
.
Speaking as a dumb arse but still a car enthusiast for all my life (50) I’m a lot less of a dumb arse on engines and tuning after having watched this and other awesome haltech tutorials. Your ability to break things down into lay terms and then build it back up Matt is perfect for me (though I’m still a bit overwhelmed and will be rewatching) top marks and thank you 👌
Top notch knowledge here,thumbs up.
I am a Link guy but you are serving the community with 100% VE!!
Thanks Matt. It is slowly starting to make sense. My Evo has lots of new Haltech stuff now so I'm trying to understand how it all works together. cheers
anybody that wants a deeper dive into this should look up the ideal gas law and stoichiometry. a better way to describe VE is as the percentage of the air mass of the fixed engine volume at a given pressure and temperature that makes it into the engine.
Great and informative content as always! Keep it up.
Thanks for the feedback:)
Been waiting for this. Thank you so much
You're welcome.
Next time someone asks how an engine that's now running a different turbo on the same boost level can make different power, I'm going to point them here. That point isn't necessarily covered in great detail but yes the efficiency of the turbo does affect the overall result all else being equal....
Another main point with that question is that different turbos can flow different amounts of air at the same "pressure ratio" (that's what the turbo companies like to call it lol) due to compressor housing/wheel sizing and efficiency differences.
Brilliant Mate....This is a great video that explains the complicated nature of tuning.
GREAT video and explanations. SO glad I selected Haltech for my project, with support, information, and guidance like this. Thank you.
Welcome to Planet Haltech:)
That was awesome! Great explanation.
Very informative video keep up the good work.
Yes great information much needed for a beginner in programming
Wow! So well explained. Thank you :-D
Who doesn't wanna be "a rocket surgeon"
Went to UTI in 2010, they had class teaching this, I didn't get it. Now, your detailed explanation kicked it all into gear, in my brain housing group, that is. They had a Nissan 350 and we'd tune it and dyno for results, I was going through the motions, then! I'm sure that I can tune now, thanks to this video.
Simply the best explanation...once u said take a pause.....it compelled me to take a pause, hit like, push subscribe button...here you go...one more subscriber❤❤❤
Well done...I could actually understand what you were saying....🤔🏁
:)
Great explanation! Thanks
Great video! I knew this stuff anyway but I still learned some stuff. 🙂🙂 Thank you!
IM 😎
Great video. Learned something new
That was great, thank you!
Muchisimas gracias amigo, abrazo.
I think I get it now. What is VE? Volume Entering vs. Volume Exiting.
Very well said
Very nice technical video. 👍
Great coverage of a tricky topic. I like to remind myself that combustion is a chemical reaction, so it's logical to think about the number of atoms or molecules being reacted, which the mass gives us a direct analogue for. Volume is not nearly so useful, as gases are compressible.
Great Video !
Great video!
I like this man, he makes these segments easy to follow.
Brilliant
Holy shit, what a beast of a topic.
Can you please make a video explaining the elite 2500 auto transmission control and all the necessary hardware that's needed to successfully operate an engine and auto transmission ,thank you in advance ,these videos really help us outside of the US to truly understand the capabilities of your products and I am looking forward to the auto trans video
years ago at haltech elite training Matt said to us ,"I prefer to use TPS as the VE table axis because its the thing that changes VE the most ".. that hit me in the head like bolt of lighting.. Thanks again Matt for the excellent explanations and knowledge you've given to so many of us ..
@Matt Wright I can see how TPS would work great with an NA engine.
Does that hold true with a turbo and boost? I can't seem to wrap my head around it that way.
@@Silverhks for boosted engines, no, at least not on the positive pressure part of the map.
And personally -- keep in mind I'm an above-average amateur hobbyist that has tuned my own cars with guidance from professionals, and I'm not a pro or expert in tuning like these gentlemen at Haltech; my experience comes from ROM tuning and ECU flashing late 90's and early 00's ECUs and some tuning on late-00's standalones -- I still prefer MAP+IAT over TPS, and MAF if the car has it, as TPS is the least flexible with atmospheric changes, for example if you live/drive in an area that has significant seasonal temperature swings (more significant for turbo cars than NA), or a mountainous area with large changes in elevation. So I prefer MAF as it basically directly measures the mass of air flow (as long as the flow through the MAF tube is laminar and the sensor is calibrated to the diameter properly) and it will "notice" the difference in airflow. With a MAP+IAT it depends if the ECU is programmed to think in absolute pressure or gauge pressure; with absolute pressure the ECU will still "see" the difference in ambient conditions. TPS is the most "picky" as the maps are generally only precise for the conditions that the tune was done in.
Not sure how this paragraph disappeared, but I'll try again 😆. My example was taking a weekend trip to the mountains. Start off driving at 100m elevation and a few hours later you're at 1100m elevation. The ambient pressure at 100m is close to 14.5 psi (sorry for the mixed units! I'm American 😂😂), whereas at 1100m it's closer to 12.9 psi. A car with a MAF sensor will be measuring "directly" (via how much the airflow cools a heated wire) the mass of the air entering the engine. A car with a MAP+IAT setup will still be able to calculate the mass if the ECU is 'thinking' in absolute pressure. If it makes "15 psi of boost", at 100m that's 15 psi gauge + 14.5 psi ambient = 29.5 psi absolute; at 1100m that's 15 psi gauge + 12.9 psi ambient = 27.9 psi absolute. So the ECU should still "see" the different in air mass entering the engine despite the elevation change. (For some reason I want to say that some older factory ECUs were 'thinking' in gauge pressure or the mapping was in gauge pressure, and hence would face issues with significant changes in ambient conditions, so they needed an ambient pressure reference either via a sensor in the ECU housing that would only read ambient, or by taking an ambient pressure reading during key-on before the engine turned over. This was almost two decades ago so I don't remember if that was a specific application or just a misunderstanding of how the factory ECU worked). A car that is tuned by TPS would not "see" this difference in mass flow, and would only know 50% throttle at 4000rpm for example, without "being aware" that the actual mass of air entering the engine is different from what it was programmed to expect. Hence, TPS-tuned cars are more sensitive to significant differences in conditions, and more sensitive to mods that affect the VE (e.g. breathing mods like exhaust manifolds, or freer-flowing intercoolers, etc) and need tuning more often when things change, whereas a MAF-tuned car would "see" the effect of minor to moderate changes as it's still basing everything off the measured mass that enters the engine. A MAP+IAT is kind of in-between, as it can cope with things like less pressure drop on an intercooler or a more-cooled intake charge, but some mods that affect airflow without affecting manifold pressure might still require a re-tune. As far as I remember, with a re-reference to my caveat that my experience is limited to some older kit and it's been a few years since I needed to tune anything 😅
Anyway, that's my take. If I have any bad info or misconceptions, I welcome corrections.
@@jsquared1013 thats abs true but thats why you put widevand so she sees litle changes and corects it all the time so you wont have big changes since it will corect every second every second
@@jsquared1013You're forgetting an important pair of sensors;, ambient air temp and barometric pressure sensor. Using pure alphaN I see only a 3% or less short-term fuel trim going from 100ft to 7200ft DAs on my built drag bike.
By adding those two sensors as fueling correction factors, alphaN tuning where VE table is derived from TPS/RPM becomes drastically more robust than MAP/RPM VE table, particularly so with a wideband and short term trim occuring.
Where MAP inherently has noise on the signal and has a delay between pedal movement and signal change based on cylinder count/cam size/rpm, TPS has none of those and it's why alphaN is almost always the primary strategy used on motorcycles.
This is paired with a low RPM secondary fuel table that uses MAP/RPM for fueling below a user set RPM point and it is the best of both worlds, alphaN and Speed Density.
Speed Density becomes problematic (useless) with big enough cams on very high specific output engines because the MAP signal will reach max values well below 100% TPS. On NA engines with greater than 100% VE it's completely useless and alphaN becomes ideal.
Your point on MAF is spot on, and why so many OEMs use them. Their flexibility and precision allows for ideal emissions compliance. Some, like BMW use a hybrid of all 3 strategies, MAF, Speed Density, and alphaN to have the ideal strategy for any given situation.
Great thanks! Pillow talk about engines would be amazing! Hahaha lucky spouse
I think part of the confusion is from some ECUs have higher ve numbers when boosted. For example, with 3 bar of boost, the table range is 0-480 instead of 0-120
Good stuff man.
Glad you enjoyed it:)
thank you
Valve overlap. Engine speed. Work load. Friction loss. MAF meters. I feel a science project coming on.
5:01 So... (dons geek glasses) By working with intake/exhaust air mass, you're taking into account charge density, irrespective of volume, right? That way you can tune -without bothering- (Edit: watched the rest of the video ;-) with air temps, since the ECU will be calculating the optimal Fuel/Air ratio anyway?
Edit2: Never mind, watching the full video answered all my dumb questions... Which says a lot about the host's ability for exposition. ;-)
Love these videos, keep 'em pumpin'!
More info than technical college
thanks!
educative
Thank you so much for this most interesting and informative video.
One question: wouldn't the supercharger offer the same kind of restriction on the engine's intake as the turbocharger, since the two kinds of blowers essentially differ only in how they're driven by the engine. The turbocharger would obviously restrict the exhaust flow, whereas the supercharger would not.
Glad to see more of this. Always amazing to see how high school physics concepts require so much technical content disclaimer.
"Hmmhhhmhmhhm"
- Mat From Haltech
-2021-
Thanks for this. A nitpick though: "... they DON'T affect the engine air pump efficiency because they're not a restriction on either side of the intake or exhaust" (superchargers). Pretty sure superchargers are an intake side restriction ;)
Boost doesn't change ve but is does. Boost doesn't only create higher pressure but also higher velocity and with higher velocity more air manages to get into the cylinder than with ambient air just being sucked
Thanks, Matt! Did you ever get the injection sorted on your VW bus?
@Matt Wright Matt, fully understand! Popular Vanagon swap is Subaru power (hint,hint)... Subarugears in Perth does a reverse ring and pinion gearbox, too...
I noticed the Illinois plate on your shelf. Do you have a shop here?
Hoping you can close the loop, what’s the difference then between a VE table and a millisecond table? Does the background algorithm of a VE table allows for more stable fueling and less correction? Or is there a strong bond between VE and target AF?
you missed how we can have 125% "VE" (highly tuned engines), or why O2 sensors aren't a good way to monitor AFR (e.g. any DI engine will produce soot if you're near "stoich"). Gordon Blair's "Design and simulation of four Stroke Engines" came out in 1999, and even advanced tuners are still talking about VE.
Hey Matt! Your clarity in pronunciation has gone up by leaps and bounds! It's really nice for someone who has English as their second language. In the older videos I had to do SO many "double takes" to hang on. So I just want to say that I totally appreciate the effort! :D
The subject was nice too! Next I assume we're going to talk about intake runner harmonics and what not :P
@Matt Wright what's your first language? This is news to me
@Matt Wright I met you aT WCF 2019 and you were fine. Lol I'm straight from Jamaica so maybe that helps
@Matt Wright thanks to James the editor. We all appreciate all info
@Matt Wright 🤣🤣
Great video and breakdown for idiots like me thank you!
Had me cracking up in the first 10 seconds!
Literally you use my handle on here! LOL
😄😄😄
Great explanation. Now my question would be. What engine modifications improves the VE of an engine. And is there any correlation between higher VE and better fuel efficiency? I have a old 7.5L gas V8 that has very poor HP/L and also poor gas mileage. Would changing parts like cams, heads and such improve fuel efficiency while making more power ?
@Matt Wright So better VE will make more power, but by using more fuel. higher AFR tuning would make for a better fuel economy (Asuming that the engine can support it, with regards to knock and engine temperature in mind). My expectations are low, but I wonder how close to a newer similar sized engine i could get out of my 89 EFI engine. Like sequential ignition timing, higher compression ratio. At least get better HP with the same amount of fuel. I understand how complex the whole thing is, but it's something i've looked for and that there is little to no info about out there.
When starting off and tuning a base map and checking your VE table and mapping it out correctly. At what point would you have a look at the injector firing angle? How does that table correlate with the VE table?
Would tuning one require tuning the other until they both stop making changes to the output in a positive way?
@Matt Wright great insight there 👍 thanks, Matt. If I remember correctly, on many engines isn't there also a point where the pulse width of the injector is actually longer than the amount of time the intake valve is open?
I'll have to watch this at least 5 more times
That Oklahoma license plate is making me curious?
My type r has v tech only on the exhust side, because the pressure the turbo makes its not needed on the intake. Hows this effect the VE? the V tech is no longer oil controlled its all done with the ECU as is the turbo boost amount. Seems like an incredible amount of work the ecu needs to handle.
If I lived with a tuner, I would drive him/her inSane with all my questions, haha.
Why can't we just tune the VE map using the value measured by the air mass flow sensor at the intake?
And how do we come about the targeted air fuel ratio map?
What exactly do the numbers entered into the VE map represent?
Is 100 when the engine has 100% VE??
Love these videos, it doesn't matter how much you know you still learn from this, definitely helpful guys 👌 I am currently building a Barra and going for over 2000hp, so far we have used the best of the best, i.e a Haltech. I would love to get Scottie to tune the FG check out my intro video on my channel and you will see it means business not a dollar has been spared. Would love todo a colab with Scottie on him tuning this car. De-stroked nitto 3.8 Barra over 4500cc of injectors (2 rails) and nitrous, Jonny Tig , plazmaman, and too much Atomik to list. And all this through a 6 speed manual.
Thanks guys hope to hear from you so I can send this car to Sydney for a tune 👌
Transient throttle, Injector Angle videos please!
www.haltech.com/news-events/transient-throttle-enrichment-throttle-pump-explained/
i reckon i understood that
Respecpa!)
If you don’t have access to a steady state rolling road Dyno that can compensate for elevation, how does any of this apply to the average guy tuning with this type of system? Especially with just a narrow band o2 sensor? Or even a wide band?
Obviously, you would want the correction factors within the capabilities of the injectors, about 30 percent.
So either side of zero is 15 percent.
What cell am I in? What’s the amount of fuel trim correction?, and does it trend towards increasing or decreasing fuel? So at that load and rpm, at that temperature and altitude, what is my correction factor? I had to theoretically input my VE numbers that need to be correct with that thirty percent correction factor to get the engine up and running. I can tune for idle, and no load RPM at the current temperature, but that’s it.
I’d could then go on the road and datalog all of the cells I can at the altitudes and loads my areas roads can provide at a steady state, remaining in that cell for as long as I can to see the fuel trim correction.
Good luck with that other than a few cells.
Then there is the issue of a quickly closing of the throttle blades , that will have to be compensated for with unmeasured air bypassing the throttle blades, for drivability on deceleration. But that is separate and can be adjusted by the number of steps open or closed of the bypass valve.
The ECU uses the algorithms in a spread sheet format so you don’t have to do the math for any change in any one cell. It will extrapolate the values for you.
You will also have to deal with fuel sheer, puddling, droplets of fuel falling out of suspension, depending on the placement location of the injectors, and how we are firing them , either in batch or sequential.
That’s known as Tau.
So without a straight road climbing up from sea level to however many thousands of feet, under throttle going up and down the hill and under deceleration, you can’t really tune an engine for the street and drive ability, that isn’t constantly correcting in wide swings that may or may not be within 30 percent . That’s for complete burning of the fuel stoichiometrically. Engines run rich for maximum power and lean for maximum fuel efficiency. Engines with catalytic converters run a swinging average of stoichiometry in order to add fuel and burn it off in the catalytic converters , putting emissions first.
So a steady state, loaded, rolling road, and massive amounts of individual cells need to be populated with accurate values . Otherwise drive ability issues with the system always lagging will come up.
Don’t think for a second, that if you don’t have access to a rolling road Dyno that you can ever really tune a fuel injection system properly and the time it takes to do so.
Unless I was using it for a drag strip , I wouldn’t even bother unless I had the right test conditions and sensors.
Your chance of tuning for drivability on the street is pretty low and only gets worse with forced induction. So unless you have a mass airflow sensor and you aren’t running in map based only configuration, you chances of success are very low.
The best I’ve found to look at is the factory map based , sequential, fuel injection strategies of the 04.5 up 4.7 Chrysler programming with HP Tuners.
Tuning on an engine Dyno or at a drag strip is a far cry from actually tuning fuel injection.
question: why isn't a supercharger a restriction on the intake?
What about Ve when running naturally aspirated? Since in theory the highest map you see should be 0. Since your running at best 14.7 pal on both sides of the throttle?
What's the story behind the Oklahoma license plate in the background?
A gift from our Street Outlaws friends in the 405 :)
Isn't TPS still having to approximate the air entering the engine compared to MAF or MAP? So MAF or MAP should give better emissions and power than TPS tuning?
Also, if the ECU you're using has a self tuning function then is it just changing the VE value of a cell until the AFR comes into the desired range?
@Matt Wright Interesting that the ECU still needs MAP when using TPS for the VE table axis. Begs the question of why bother using the TPS then?
For self learning it's only possible for the fuelling right? For ignition you need the rolling road to be able to see when torque drops off as you increase the timing to know the maximum advance at a certain load and revs? Road tuning by the knock sensor isn't advisable?
Yup i knew that.. it easy😬
Now think about VE 'quality'. I.e. the purity of the AFR mix. This brings into consideration your cam timing, variable or tuned length inlet runners, tuned length exhaust headers, ignition timing, fuel injection timing...
Hey guys… who’s your haltech specialist in Perth? My 105 4.5 petrol landcruiser is getting a stroker kit, supercharger & haltech ecu.
We've got quite a few tuners in WA. For a full list go to www.haltech.com/dealer-list/?reg=au and scroll down to WA.
All Sports Automotive, Garage 101, WTF Auto or pretty much any of the Platinum Dealers listed there should be able to help you out:)
If ecu have a target afr table and a wideband, why it can't self calibrate?. I think the modern ecu s are smart enough for that.
Wow thanks for this video. Often I hear that small displacement engines with turbos are actually less efficient when on boost. Is this a result of what you mentioned in the video about the turbos VE and is this the same as the thermal efficiency of the engine?
Hello There. I am a little bit confused by some of the fundamentals you presented in the video:
1. So firstly you described an engine as an air pump, but if that was the case then you would be adding work to the fuel/air mixture. Surely the fuel/air mixture would be considered the working fluid applying work to the piston and other mechanical components through its combustion cycle? Surely, its only the turbo or supercharger that is the air pump in the system?
2. One thing you said about adding boost to an engine that it doesn't improve the engines efficiency, I am assuming you're referring to volumetric efficiency. The basic formula for VE is ((Volume of air in cylinder/swept volume of cylinder)X100), because of the compressible nature of gases, when you turbocharge or supercharge an engine you're effectively 'squeezing' more air into the cylinder than it would 'naturally' draw in without forced induction. So surely, the VE is going to be over 100% since with boost you're effectively increasing the engines displacement by compressing the air in the engine?
3. I was a little confused by when you said 'different fuels have different densities and different AFR ratios'. From my understanding, the physical density say gasoline at 95 octane compared to 98 octane doesn't change, but what does change is knock resistance of the fuel to spontaneous combustion which is why an engine designed to run on 98 octane would need to run a richer mixture on 95 octane to keep the cylinder temperatures down. I was just confused by this sentence as if you're referring to the fuel density in the cylinder i.e. the mass of fuel to maintain normal combustion for given quantity of air, then this would be correct.
3. I think he meant gasoline vs diesel vs ethanol. 95 octane has more ethanol in it(atleast in europe) so it changes it AFR and density. Ethanol only fueling will need like 9:1 AFR to work properly.
I feel like he's trying to explain VE as the relation between intake air and exhaust air, my understanding is the relation to total volume in the cylinder versus the amount of air you're filling it with. But then he explains it like that later. So possibly slightly contradictory information?
@4:23 Matt says “I’ve got a $20 arm” Rocket Raccoon would like to know your location.
LOL
hqw would this stand against with whats happenig in the usa and could we beat it!!
Is there any Haltech courses you can do online about tuning? I’m a motor mechanic in Australia but not a tuner but would like to learn and become more knowledgeable.
There are numerous Haltech-specific tech videos on this channel, but if you want to learn tuning in general we highly recommend HP Academy.
They cover everything from the basics to advanced tuning and even have Haltech-specific tuning courses.
www.hpacademy.com/
th-cam.com/channels/kH2fkUhM1nM86-j6xrg_sQ.html
+1 for HPAcademy!
one could assume this would help with elevation changes ? say sea level to 2500 m
How about thermal efficiency ? How can we achieve thermal efficiency more than 30% ?
Find a material with zero friction and zero heat conductivity then strong enough to handle combustion and then your off to a good start
Diesel?
i see the turbo as a restriction but if you are increasing the mass in a given volume why wouldnt that translate into an efficiency increase. When I have tuned VE under boost the efficiency goes over 100. Are you saying that is wrong. and that the car should never have a value over 100 or for your reasoning there is no current 100 percent efficient engines that is known so we should never see 100 percent. Can you clarify.