We have a topic on the forum where we're discussing this. Think Tyler mentioned this one, not sure. Anyways this is a great subject. Looking forward to some more testing! Thx Paul. scannerdanner.com/forum/diagnostic-tools-and-techniques/599-calculated-load-vs-absolute-load.html
Dylan hi. I think this program will be useful when diagnos valve train or timing problem and save time to keep trace fuel and ignition problems. what do you think ? thank you for all you done .
Wael Ahmed Yes indeed. The VE calculator can save us time by leading us in another direction faster than normal. It's actually an indication how well the engine is breathing. A bad MAF, restrictions, timing issues etc will have an affect on it. But we'll have to do more testing in order to fully understand all the benefits of this calculator. Also feel free to join the conversation on ScannerDanner forum. The more input the better 😉
It can also be used as proof that any work you have done has been succesful, print the screen and show to the customer it is easy to them understand 80% efficiency is better than 60%.
Great video. My understanding about collecting the data is, with your scan tool recording, perform a WOT acceleration from a rolling start in first gear until the transmission shifts (your goal being to achieve the greatest RPM possible that is safe for the engine) and then note the IAT and MAF values in the same frame as the peak RPM (I've been using an online calculator that calls for IAT). That DECS app looks great, though.
Hi Paul! I wanted to check the accuracy of the VE calculator that you were using. I programmed all the equations in Excel for the all the inputs that were being used to achieve the VE. This was my results compared to the VE calculator used in the video. 1st Vehicle: Your VE = 80%, My VE = 79.9573706% 2nd Vehicle: Your VE = 79% with MAF of 266 g/s, My VE, = 78.8397638% 2nd Vehicle: Your VE = 80% with MAF of 269 g/s, My VE = 79.7289341% 3rd Vehicle: Your VE = 88%, My VE = 87.6950883% This comment was just to show how accurate the VE calculator was shown in the video for anyone interested in purchasing it. I would say that it's spot on and seems to be a good one. Have a great day Paul and don't work too hard!
Paul, Scott taught a class at VISION, titled Misfire: an efficient and effective diagnosis. He touched on his program quite a bit in this program. I would like to see what other training he has, his methods are very solid!
The link you added is a "Dead Link" 404 not found. Hmmm... wonder if they changed er and didn't have it convert automatically. Do you find yourself using this software much Paul?
@scanner, I always watch your videos I enjoy your professionalism. I haven't commented before but I wanted you to know that, I find them very useful for my professional development as I am a developing auto tutor with only 3 year experience. A big thank you for taking the time, this game we are playing is so big.... so thanks a lot!.
Thanks man. Though I am certainly no genius. In fact I am learning this testing method too, hence the "Learning" in the title. But thanks again for supporting me. I truly appreciate it.
This VE calculation is one of the primary calculations used in the EScan software put out by Bernie Thompson at ATS. You can see it in action in one of his promo vids. Been out for a while as far as I can tell. He links the VE to fuel mapping as well. Neat program that I believe Keith uses. Thanks Paul!
Certainly seems like a good bit of software. before i clicked this vid i was expecting it to be plugged into the computer a give live results like that escan. Keith is there a vid of you using it in the real world?
It is definitely time for an additional scan tool , that can do exactly what you need it to do because obviously snap on has not been listening for years now . It makes what you are explaining to your viewers a whole lot easier to understand..., like my teachers use to say seeing is believing . Keep up the good work .
According to A. Graham Bell's Four Stroke Performance Tuning 80-85% is a decent VE for a street engine. He writes that racing engines can operate around 90-100% VE at their peak output, but we all know those numbers have their price in pollution, driveability, and fuel consumption. Good video Mr. Danner! :)
thanks for taking us learning with you. it's nice to see you are always searching out new ways to make diagnosis easier & more accurate. have a great day
Thanks for showing me a new test I wasn't aware of, still not sure how I will implement this into everyday diagnosis, but it is always good to have something else you can do when you are getting your ass kicked by some of these vehicles. your videos have helped me and my fellow techs many times, thanks for what you do Paul!
Thanks James. Read the description section of this video. I wrote a paragraph on where I think I see this test being extremely valuable. I will most certainly be using this in upcoming case studies as well, so we can prove it's value. Thanks again my friend.
Really liking this video. It is something i am looking at with my e46 330i having looked at the fuel trims. I believe i may have a maf or intake boot problem as i am hovering slightly above and below zero at idle, then lean at higher rpm, and this would go a long way to show up the problems. Thanks again 👍
"Typical normally aspirated engines will test having a VE of 75% to 90%. •Older two-valve cylinder head engines will test lower than newer engines equipped with four valves per cylinder" Advanced Engine Performance Diagnosis, 4/e By James D. Halderman
great job mr danner as always. v.e. testing is something many people are getting on board with. all these vehicle have shown to be running well as you have demonstrated. the v.e. test is quite critical in measuring how efficient a certain volume can evacuate a certain displacement of air and of course the fueling to combust. the days of older vehicle might have seen a v.e. of 50%. 80% is hat we can expect from a modern automobile. I believe the difference with the numbers can be found in the heads and valve train. if I am not mistaken the Lincoln should have variable valve timing and also dohc... 4 valves per cylinder? and just to clarify, your chevy should have variable cam timing? the dohc can adjust both intake and exhaust independently which would give more possible overlap to help evacuate the cylinders (scavenge effect). what I am wondering is if we can see this on the scan tool, perhaps a loser 02 reading, bust still on the rich side? we can see it on the intake side with the vey high maf gps, higher than a larger engine.
I have an older VE calculator. It doesn't have as many input parameters that yours does but i used it on the Ford F150 with some of the numbers you provided. It came up with 77% VE.
I've never seen that test done before so Thumbs Up for something new. That little Snap On tool only costs around what , $10K? Nevermind the cursor, it should make your morning coffee as well! . Take care
VE Testing,Very Very Cool.Isnt That Basically Almost The Same as The Fuel Table The Engine Computer Is Written On When Manufactured ??? I Need To Get This Program.Very Cool High Tech Stuff,Love It.Once again MR Danner Your always One step Ahead.
I think the air temperature the software is asking for is intake air temperature since the actual air going into engine would be different then ambient air as engine warms up. Maybe you can try that and see if you get a better VE percentage. Nice software
You can get very specific with altitude if you go to Google Earth. Down at the bottom of the map it shows as you move your cursor both the elevation and the coordinates. It's pretty cool. I live in the mountains and I'm at 750ft. above sea level, but a couple of hundred yards behind me it goes to 1100 ft. So you, being a precision guy, I would think Google Earth would be right up your alley!
I was in the middle of one of your older vids (Miata with the shorted o2) when I got the notification for this one. :) A day of full throttle runs is a good day indeed! :D Interesting program. I see there were inputs for the gas analyzer there too - not sure how that could be done anywhere but on a dyno, though ... unless you got super creative with the sniffer, lol. People might be staring at you funny, with the sniffer hose running out the window and going down the side of the truck from the exhaust. :D I'd like to see if that works at part throttle cruise, and everywhere in between - say, if you had an intake leak throwing a 0300, you could do a before and after repair VE test.
I believe you must be at WOT (so as to not have any intake restrictions). This is a test to see how well the engine is breathing. I don't think you could do anything with it at part throttle.
Ahh, gotcha. Been a long time since my performance clinic at MMI - I probably have that in my "$20,000 notebook" somewhere ... :) I'd be on a mission with that to see which vehicle could have the worst VE of the bunch - like one with a completely melted cat that does nothing but make noise at WOT. BOOOOOOOOOG! :D Thanks as always for the info.
I've done VE manually(math) troubleshooting bmw and mercedes. It was helpful but can also lead you astray. A 10% STFT variance, because of a maf measurement signal deviation, would decrease VE% in the program/math. In the 4.6 L truck you did (as an ex.), would decrease VE to 73% with a 10% STFT variance caused by a non ideal maf. And this is acceptable by the ECU. However, this isn't exactly right as the engine is getting more air than maf is reporting...which is the value used in the calculation/math for VE. So this is MEASURED VE, not actual VE because of maf slightly out but still within operating specs of ecu. Couple that with other variances in the engine system and you can get on a wild goose chase pretty quickly...not that that's ever happened to me...more than a few dozen times! Still, a useful tool.
Ya 08 actually..but they're still squeaky and crunchy sounding when coming out. You'll know by the COP boot color. Black vs Brown Brown = Good Black = Good luck haha
I think it would be a good idea to do this test in perhaps 2nd gear, and when you reach peak RPM, pull the parking brake on partially, and hold it WOT for at least a second or two, just to make sure the MAF has had time to react fully. I checked out the figures on your screen and did a few simple calculations, and got exactly the same volumetric efficiency as his software. I will post the equation here shortly. It basically computes the relative air density, (based on the atmospheric values you supplied) then multiplies that value by the induction cycles at the specific RPM data supplied, then divides the result by your recorded MAF. It's just a simple one line equation. Open up Excel and save yourself 40 bucks :-) Just paste this equation shown below into Excel. =(maf/(((rpm*(0.001156/((1.18*((990/(mbar-(RH*(6.1078*(10^((7.5*Tc)/(237.3+Tc)))))))*(((Tc+273)/298)^0.5)))-0.18)))/120)*cc))*100 You need to name 6 cells as listed below, then enter your recorded details into those cells. You need to supply the same 6 parameters as in the bought programme. maf -> peak Mass Airflow in Grammes per second RPM -> engine RPM CC -> engine capacity in cubic centimetres mbar -> atmospheric pressure in millibars RH -> Relative Humidity as a decimal, eg 0.3 = 30% Tc -> Temperature in degrees centigrade
Paul it would be interesting to see what the VE readings would be on a forced induction engine, much higher I would imagine. The vvt definitely played apart in higher volumetric efficiency on your wife's car, as the valve opening is timed to stay open for maximum duration throughout the rev range. On a non-VVT the amount of air flow into the cylinders is more restricted by valve duration in relation to atmospheric pressure. It is my understanding they turbocharged prop engines on aircraft to compensate for a loss of air pressure at altitude. As a guess, allowing for losses occurred from valves, intake runners, and atmospheric pressure etc, most engines would be only 80 percent efficient N/A. Regards, Stewart, Australia
Hey Paul I read a volumetric test on a magazine that was promoting snap on versus and Pico scope and the test is simple as: At idle a mass air flow should be about 1 GPS per liter engine size example a 1.8 l engine should read about 1.8 gps
ScannerDanner I guess you're right the only other test that I could think off is the WOT and the calculated load it should be over 80% on a good mass air flow other then that not too sure how to test mid range
hey Paul,I hope you don't mind me thanking you for the vid before I watch it..im dealing with an Acura tl with a p0300...i got my inner scanner danner going at the moment. Will watch after work..peace bro.
ve test is cool, but you can do the same thing by trying to max out the calculated load pid. calculated load will be a higher number because it seems to take into account how much the engine can actually breath instead of how much it can theoretically breath. what is interesting about this guys product is his claims about forced induction engines as most of them are speed density.
Good info Paul! I imagine this would help to tell if you have carboned up intake valves on this newer direct injection stuff? Thanks for all the great content!
80% is about right for american made cars without turbo turbo can go over 100% yes i think variable cam timing helps it breathe alittle better if you had low VE but going rich 02 during wide open throttle i'd be looking at exhaust being backed up if you had low power. if you don't want to carry that calculator around you can mulitply rpm x liter x 80 = your gps this gives you a good ideal what the gps should be hope this helps
Kenneth Hicks Any forced induction engine should have a VE over 100% since the air is compressed and thus denser. Denser air has more mass as measured by the MAF. Since the displacement of the engine is fixed the VE goes over 100%.
The Navigator is a 3V engine and the F150 and your Chevy are 2V engines. That is what I think gives the Navigator better VE, At least that is the idea behind having more valves per cylinder.
Maybe calculated 80% VE in this program means that 4.6L engine can "suck" 3,68L of air/fuel mixture. And this value will be different on 2 or 4 valve engines. Calculators for converting NA engine to force induction require this value.
There is many variables like engine design. Turbo charged and Supercharged engines will get you over 100 percent 'VE but a regular engine will fall about 80 to 90 percent 'VE. Great video Paul it will help and where did you get the software I don't really use Ve now but will if can get some good software to help with the Math.
It will be interesting to find out how the program factions at high altitude (about 5,000 ft or higher) under similar conditions. Is VE going to be about same?, or is it going to be different?. Engine load calculation figures should be much less.
Thanks for responding about VE and how its performed on a CVT transmission, but I was also thinking .. is there a way to test VE on a force induction engine?
Hi i think this test "VE" will be useful when diagnose valve train or timing problems ,and save time by avoid to start test fuel ,ignition or exhaust restricted what do you think ? Thank you for all you done .
Hey Paul...Have you tried entering different RPM's and all corresponding info just to see how they close they would be.? YES...I know, that means you have to move that little blue piss off line around some more.. Just take you blood pressure meds (BEER) and give it a try for experimental reasons. LOL Just curious how close the numbers would be. Cheers Brother
as an expert you are , i wanna ask you about the Chinese Launch scanner tools , what's you opinion , and if you can make comparison with snap on , thank you
Very interesting video and software test. Three questions. First does the program determine VE using mols (chemistry-uhg) or volume? Also I put together an Excel spread sheet to calculate VE (using mols-14.7 mols of O2 per mol of gasoline, assuming pure gas). The spreadsheet also has input for air density using humidity and barometric pressure. (I live at 4200 feet). I've tested it in numerous cars using BARO from my scanner, one I borrowed, from an app on my iPhone, and local weather. For some reason the BARO on both scanner always read 1-2 in/hg more than iPhone or local weather. But the scanners BARO is also less than sea level pressure (so I know it's not correcting for sea level). Any thoughts on why the BARO from the scanners consistently read different? Lastly, are you aware of a program that will give me a MAF estimate based on an assumed 80% VE? My spreadsheet seems to work but I would like to confirm it with another program.
excellent videoSD what I know is fuel trims have to be good along with MAF to look at VE to trust it as a true breathing problem ie if a maf was overmeasuring air the gps would give you a false high as far as VE along with negative fuel trims from what iv heard pushrod engines your 6.0 litre is probably normal your wifes 5,4 multi valve vvt will test higher. I know VE does not work for speed density cars no way to measure GPS sorry about the cursor situation on the snappy scan tool wondering if maxisys does better with the cursors maybe somebody can chime in thanks again scan take care
probably been said.. intake air temp sensor should be your temp. reading i have seen a free application for android that does similar calculations not sure of accuracy but may be worth a look.
fwiw our modus ultra with 16.4 software has drag-able cursors. They arent real precise and sometimes take multiple tries to get it where you want, but it is better than what youre fighting against with your verus
IS the screen overlay you use in this software a open source software, available for a cost somewhere or a special software hard to find? Have a link by chance?
I would like to ask what mechanical reasons could make a normal engine (not turbo) have a very high volumetric efficiency and low power.egr, maf, fuel, timing is ok.I understand that the engine draws more air from delayed valves? from wrong camshafts?(1.4 cc low power ve 185%!!!!!!)
@@ScannerDanner I didn't make it because the customer took the car and will bring it back and I'll see the calc load, I've just done the ve calculation on many cars but it drove me crazy, I tried it 2 times and the ve comes out very high as if it's a turbo!!!! could a delay in closing the intake valves create such a phenomenon!!! and just to make you laugh, I fixed the car and it has torque again by changing and putting a broken maf that I had from the same model and I knew that at high revs less air is measured and the torque came back hahaha absolutely crazy. when the car arrives I will look at the calc load. my live data is from generic i dont use clobal data ,anyway, at 5000 revolutions a maf measures at 1.4 cc about 56 gr/sec while this one measured about 90 !!!!!.maybe ecm problem? I will let you know when I look at it thanks
Quick question love all your vids learning lots What the average load in amp or safe amp on a 30 amp fuse? 2017 ridgeline my fuse jumped motor works Near full speed 23 amps Then the fuse in my volt meter jumped stupid me 10 amp max Thx
Hard to say Phil. "They" say 80% of the fuse rating should be maximum current for a circuit. This doesn't mean it will run at 80% the entire time however.
it's just not a world I want to get into. I always tell my students who want to get into mods to let me teach you how this stuff is supposed to work and once you have that down, you can be the best mod guy out there. Most people that get into "tuning" have no idea what they are actually doing. Not to mention troubleshooting when something isn't right.
ScannerDanner What i mean to say is that the fuel maps and ignition curves designed to run that f150 were limited to 88%. not the full 100%. I have no idea if that helps with any information on this test' simply stating that the 88% WOT. will never reach 100% VE if it was only designed to reach 88%. I could be way off in my thinking or having issues trying to put into words what im trying to say.
Your Slverado displayed a max of 99%, the Lincoln displayed 100%, as for the F150 it displayed a max of 88% load but that seemed like a spike it averaged low 80s while you were in it. I have read elsewhere that anything over 80% is normal but at the same time in my experience there has to be a reason for the ECU to not recognize that you're trying to give it everything it's got. 9 out of ten times that I come across an issue like that it has always been a booger or something on the MAF.
It's like that because the manufacturers want to be able to sell a vehicle anybody can drive at any time of the year, in any climate, and that can make it to 100k without issue. 88% ve is pretty damn good for a eveyday American suv. Ten years ago those numbers were reserved for high end exotics and super bikes.
Your right I'm a idiot, I read that too fast. 80 ish % load at WOT. It's a tiny bit off but within limits. Checking the pid and putting a scope on it wouldn't hurt to be sure. But i think it might also be a mileage issue, gunked up tb, intake runners, valves restricting a tiny bit of airflow perhaps.
To get a accurate VE, there are many variables that needs to be consider. But to get a ballpark VE, he defiantly should use IAT instead of outside temperature. I can imagine how much air density will be off if engine got a intercool !.
Yes, you want the air temperature of the air going into the engine. The right way should be, drive the car decent speed until AIT is stable (it should not take long) while graphing. Then do the WOT VE test. Otherwise you might have high under hood temperature which can increase IAT. This will give fault air density which will effect VE result.
If your Lincoln is a flex fuel try a comparison with fuel vs ethanol. It would be interesting to verify what we already know, that is ethanol is not efficient at all and although it may be a few cents cheaper gallon per gallon it's a bad idea and is not a viable alternative fuel. Then perhaps a comparison with LP gas. (the government might not like you after they get exposed!)
Ethanol produces less carbon and NOX LPG likewise. Yes there is a power output issue because of the lower energy content of these fuels but that wouldn't be problem if manufacturers produced engines designed from the ground up for these fuels. Here in Europe over the last 10 years we have been cursed by the trend towards diesels for any vehicle 1.8 litre causing particulate and NOX levels in our towns to shoot up.
Hey Mr Donna this DECS seem a little bit too much work , sorry that, but i do respect you and your work and knowledge .i also have subscription with you , i can recommend the ECAN PRO by BERNIE THAMPSON automotive test solution . check it it is in my oppinon easier and effetive .
We have a topic on the forum where we're discussing this. Think Tyler mentioned this one, not sure. Anyways this is a great subject. Looking forward to some more testing! Thx Paul.
scannerdanner.com/forum/diagnostic-tools-and-techniques/599-calculated-load-vs-absolute-load.html
Thanks Dylan!
Dylan
hi. I think this program will be useful when diagnos valve train or timing problem and save time to keep trace fuel and ignition problems.
what do you think ?
thank you for all you done .
Wael Ahmed Yes indeed. The VE calculator can save us time by leading us in another direction faster than normal. It's actually an indication how well the engine is breathing. A bad MAF, restrictions, timing issues etc will have an affect on it. But we'll have to do more testing in order to fully understand all the benefits of this calculator. Also feel free to join the conversation on ScannerDanner forum. The more input the better 😉
It can also be used as proof that any work you have done has been succesful, print the screen and show to the customer it is easy to them understand 80% efficiency is better than 60%.
Andrew W MacFadyen best reply I've read today !
Great video. My understanding about collecting the data is, with your scan tool recording, perform a WOT acceleration from a rolling start in first gear until the transmission shifts (your goal being to achieve the greatest RPM possible that is safe for the engine) and then note the IAT and MAF values in the same frame as the peak RPM (I've been using an online calculator that calls for IAT). That DECS app looks great, though.
Hi Paul! I wanted to check the accuracy of the VE calculator that you were using. I programmed all the equations in Excel for the all the inputs that were being used to achieve the VE. This was my results compared to the VE calculator used in the video.
1st Vehicle: Your VE = 80%, My VE = 79.9573706%
2nd Vehicle: Your VE = 79% with MAF of 266 g/s, My VE, = 78.8397638%
2nd Vehicle: Your VE = 80% with MAF of 269 g/s, My VE = 79.7289341%
3rd Vehicle: Your VE = 88%, My VE = 87.6950883%
This comment was just to show how accurate the VE calculator was shown in the video for anyone interested in purchasing it. I would say that it's spot on and seems to be a good one. Have a great day Paul and don't work too hard!
Paul, Scott taught a class at VISION, titled Misfire: an efficient and effective diagnosis. He touched on his program quite a bit in this program. I would like to see what other training he has, his methods are very solid!
Here is his website www.driveabilityguys.com/Home_Page.php
The link you added is a "Dead Link" 404 not found. Hmmm... wonder if they changed er and didn't have it convert automatically.
Do you find yourself using this software much Paul?
@scanner, I always watch your videos I enjoy your professionalism. I haven't commented before but I wanted you to know that, I find them very useful for my professional development as I am a developing auto tutor with only 3 year experience. A big thank you for taking the time, this game we are playing is so big.... so thanks a lot!.
Well thank you for commenting for the first time! I love hearing from you guys and read every single one.
ScannerDanner you are a genius!!!
Thanks for everything you share with us!!!!
I always give a 👍 to all your videos even before I start watch them!!!
Thanks man. Though I am certainly no genius. In fact I am learning this testing method too, hence the "Learning" in the title. But thanks again for supporting me. I truly appreciate it.
This VE calculation is one of the primary calculations used in the EScan software put out by Bernie Thompson at ATS. You can see it in action in one of his promo vids. Been out for a while as far as I can tell. He links the VE to fuel mapping as well. Neat program that I believe Keith uses. Thanks Paul!
Baxrok2 yes sir
Certainly seems like a good bit of software. before i clicked this vid i was expecting it to be plugged into the computer a give live results like that escan.
Keith is there a vid of you using it in the real world?
Post the link Keith. It will automatically go to spam but I'll unlock it when I see it.
ScannerDanner www.aeswave.com/ats-escan-with-sharpshooter-technology-esn2000-p8729.html
I meant post a video of you using it. Not the product link silly
It is definitely time for an additional scan tool , that can do exactly what you need it to do because obviously snap on has not been listening for years now . It makes what you are explaining to your viewers a whole lot easier to understand..., like my teachers use to say seeing is believing . Keep up the good work .
i know im answering a 4 yr old post but Automotive test solutions has had a VE scan tool out for 15 years called the escan
I really enjoy the technical aspect of how an engine operates and even better is making it more efficient than it came from the factory
According to A. Graham Bell's Four Stroke Performance Tuning 80-85% is a decent VE for a street engine. He writes that racing engines can operate around 90-100% VE at their peak output, but we all know those numbers have their price in pollution, driveability, and fuel consumption. Good video Mr. Danner! :)
thanks for taking us learning with you. it's nice to see you are always searching out new ways to make diagnosis easier & more accurate. have a great day
for sure! Thank you for watching and making it worth it for me to do this!
Nice video, never heard of this test, but the results I think is a good test to show your job was done well. Simply simple and open. Thanks Paul.
Thanks for showing me a new test I wasn't aware of, still not sure how I will implement this into everyday diagnosis, but it is always good to have something else you can do when you are getting your ass kicked by some of these vehicles. your videos have helped me and my fellow techs many times, thanks for what you do Paul!
Thanks James. Read the description section of this video. I wrote a paragraph on where I think I see this test being extremely valuable. I will most certainly be using this in upcoming case studies as well, so we can prove it's value. Thanks again my friend.
Those were some good tests. It's kind of fun to see actual information on how your car is performing.
I've met Scott Shotton and taken a couple of his classes, great instructor! Your in good hands Paul with Scott. I'm gonna go check out his software.🙂
Cool stuff Thanks for the information.....like to see more and how it can be related to better diagnostics
Really liking this video. It is something i am looking at with my e46 330i having looked at the fuel trims. I believe i may have a maf or intake boot problem as i am hovering slightly above and below zero at idle, then lean at higher rpm, and this would go a long way to show up the problems. Thanks again 👍
back to soft job and clean hands ;) nice vdo
haha absolutely my friend
보는내내 감탄사가 절로 나오네요
this type of test is great if you want to know exactly what your volumetric efficiency is so you know what size of turbo you can run on your engine
Thank you for sharing this Paul D.
thanks for watching
"Typical normally aspirated engines will test having a VE of 75% to 90%.
•Older two-valve cylinder head engines will test lower than newer engines equipped with four valves per cylinder"
Advanced Engine Performance Diagnosis, 4/e
By James D. Halderman
great job mr danner as always. v.e. testing is something many people are getting on board with.
all these vehicle have shown to be running well as you have demonstrated.
the v.e. test is quite critical in measuring how efficient a certain volume can evacuate a certain displacement of air and of course the fueling to combust. the days of older vehicle might have seen a v.e. of 50%. 80% is hat we can expect from a modern automobile. I believe the difference with the numbers can be found in the heads and valve train. if I am not mistaken the Lincoln should have variable valve timing and also dohc... 4 valves per cylinder? and just to clarify, your chevy should have variable cam timing? the dohc can adjust both intake and exhaust independently which would give more possible overlap to help evacuate the cylinders (scavenge effect). what I am wondering is if we can see this on the scan tool, perhaps a loser 02 reading, bust still on the rich side? we can see it on the intake side with the vey high maf gps, higher than a larger engine.
I have an older VE calculator. It doesn't have as many input parameters that yours does but i used it on the Ford F150 with some of the numbers you provided. It came up with 77% VE.
I've never seen that test done before so Thumbs Up for something new. That little Snap On tool only costs around what , $10K? Nevermind the cursor, it should make your morning coffee as well! . Take care
I've heard it is fixed on the 16.2 Modis update. We'll see in August when we update this at the school.
ScannerDanner you're running 15.4 still?
VE Testing,Very Very Cool.Isnt That Basically Almost The Same as The Fuel Table The Engine Computer Is Written On When Manufactured ??? I Need To Get This Program.Very Cool High Tech Stuff,Love It.Once again MR Danner Your always One step Ahead.
I think the air temperature the software is asking for is intake air temperature since the actual air going into engine would be different then ambient air as engine warms up. Maybe you can try that and see if you get a better VE percentage. Nice software
You can get very specific with altitude if you go to Google Earth. Down at the bottom of the map it shows as you move your cursor both the elevation and the coordinates. It's pretty cool.
I live in the mountains and I'm at 750ft. above sea level, but a couple of hundred yards behind me it goes to 1100 ft. So you, being a precision guy, I would think Google Earth would be right up your alley!
you changed my life man and i wish if i bought your book and translate it to Arabic language
I was in the middle of one of your older vids (Miata with the shorted o2) when I got the notification for this one. :)
A day of full throttle runs is a good day indeed! :D
Interesting program. I see there were inputs for the gas analyzer there too - not sure how that could be done anywhere but on a dyno, though ... unless you got super creative with the sniffer, lol. People might be staring at you funny, with the sniffer hose running out the window and going down the side of the truck from the exhaust. :D
I'd like to see if that works at part throttle cruise, and everywhere in between - say, if you had an intake leak throwing a 0300, you could do a before and after repair VE test.
I believe you must be at WOT (so as to not have any intake restrictions). This is a test to see how well the engine is breathing. I don't think you could do anything with it at part throttle.
Ahh, gotcha. Been a long time since my performance clinic at MMI - I probably have that in my "$20,000 notebook" somewhere ... :)
I'd be on a mission with that to see which vehicle could have the worst VE of the bunch - like one with a completely melted cat that does nothing but make noise at WOT. BOOOOOOOOOG! :D
Thanks as always for the info.
haha no problem man. I'll be showing this some more, no doubt. My next low power condition case study, you will see this again.
Sweet - I'll be watching for that one.
Maybe some car will hit the low 30's - won't have to worry about speeding on that run at least! :D
I've done VE manually(math) troubleshooting bmw and mercedes. It was helpful but can also lead you astray.
A 10% STFT variance, because of a maf measurement signal deviation, would decrease VE% in the program/math.
In the 4.6 L truck you did (as an ex.), would decrease VE to 73% with a 10% STFT variance caused by a non ideal maf. And this is acceptable by the ECU.
However, this isn't exactly right as the engine is getting more air than maf is reporting...which is the value used in the calculation/math for VE.
So this is MEASURED VE, not actual VE because of maf slightly out but still within operating specs of ecu.
Couple that with other variances in the engine system and you can get on a wild goose chase pretty quickly...not that that's ever happened to me...more than a few dozen times!
Still, a useful tool.
"I always liked the 5.4" you sir are most definitely a diagnostician. lol
haha I've heard about the nightmares on this engine.
Gear Wrench87 They fixed the plug problem in 2009, I believe.
Ya 08 actually..but they're still squeaky and crunchy sounding when coming out.
You'll know by the COP boot color. Black vs Brown
Brown = Good
Black = Good luck haha
I think it would be a good idea to do this test in perhaps 2nd gear, and when you reach peak RPM, pull the parking brake on partially, and hold it WOT for at least a second or two, just to make sure the MAF has had time to react fully. I checked out the figures on your screen and did a few simple calculations, and got exactly the same volumetric efficiency as his software. I will post the equation here shortly. It basically computes the relative air density, (based on the atmospheric values you supplied) then multiplies that value by the induction cycles at the specific RPM data supplied, then divides the result by your recorded MAF. It's just a simple one line equation. Open up Excel and save yourself 40 bucks :-)
Just paste this equation shown below into Excel.
=(maf/(((rpm*(0.001156/((1.18*((990/(mbar-(RH*(6.1078*(10^((7.5*Tc)/(237.3+Tc)))))))*(((Tc+273)/298)^0.5)))-0.18)))/120)*cc))*100
You need to name 6 cells as listed below, then enter your recorded details into those cells.
You need to supply the same 6 parameters as in the bought programme.
maf -> peak Mass Airflow in Grammes per second
RPM -> engine RPM
CC -> engine capacity in cubic centimetres
mbar -> atmospheric pressure in millibars
RH -> Relative Humidity as a decimal, eg 0.3 = 30%
Tc -> Temperature in degrees centigrade
If it's normal for different engines to have different VE values, why would the VE info help diagnose a skewed MAF sensor?
Paul it would be interesting to see what the VE readings would be on a forced induction engine, much higher I would imagine. The vvt definitely played apart in higher volumetric efficiency on your wife's car, as the valve opening is timed to stay open for maximum duration throughout the rev range. On a non-VVT the amount of air flow into the cylinders is more restricted by valve duration in relation to atmospheric pressure. It is my understanding they turbocharged prop engines on aircraft to compensate for a loss of air pressure at altitude. As a guess, allowing for losses occurred from valves, intake runners, and atmospheric pressure etc, most engines would be only 80 percent efficient N/A. Regards, Stewart, Australia
Hey Paul I read a volumetric test on a magazine that was promoting snap on versus and Pico scope and the test is simple as: At idle a mass air flow should be about 1 GPS per liter engine size example a 1.8 l engine should read about 1.8 gps
right, I've heard that too, but that is only a guide for an idle number, it does not mean the sensor is good throughout the range.
ScannerDanner I guess you're right the only other test that I could think off is the WOT and the calculated load it should be over 80% on a good mass air flow other then that not too sure how to test mid range
hey Paul,I hope you don't mind me thanking you for the vid before I watch it..im dealing with an Acura tl with a p0300...i got my inner scanner danner going at the moment. Will watch after work..peace bro.
nice! Thanks brother
Awesome 👏 hopefully I can be as good one day
I'm a new sub to your channel I just want to say you put out some really really good content very good information keep up the good work 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼✌️
Welcome aboard! Thanks so much. I really appreciate the comment.
Frankie M. what took you so long ? 😉
My bad I thought I was already subscribed to your channel but know I am and I hit the bell to notify me 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼✌️
what's up Keith? everything good with your channel?
ve test is cool, but you can do the same thing by trying to max out the calculated load pid. calculated load will be a higher number because it seems to take into account how much the engine can actually breath instead of how much it can theoretically breath. what is interesting about this guys product is his claims about forced induction engines as most of them are speed density.
Great learning from your videos, how about engine with only MAP ?
Good info Paul! I imagine this would help to tell if you have carboned up intake valves on this newer direct injection stuff? Thanks for all the great content!
80% is about right for american made cars without turbo
turbo can go over 100% yes i think variable cam timing helps it breathe alittle better
if you had low VE but going rich 02 during wide open throttle i'd be looking at exhaust
being backed up if you had low power. if you don't want to carry that calculator around
you can mulitply rpm x liter x 80 = your gps this gives you a good ideal what the gps should
be hope this helps
If you got over 100% an input variable(s) are not correct, likely maf AND turbo pressure.
And you better check your gps formula above...
the gps is gonna be alot higher on turbo cars and it can read over 100%
go get you a turbo car drive like there telling you here and do the math
Kenneth Hicks Any forced induction engine should have a VE over 100% since the air is compressed and thus denser. Denser air has more mass as measured by the MAF. Since the displacement of the engine is fixed the VE goes over 100%.
80% should be for very old engine. 100% is easy to get with newer engines. Specially mid range rpm, sea level, cool weather and etc.
you always good. sir
The Navigator is a 3V engine and the F150 and your Chevy are 2V engines. That is what I think gives the Navigator better VE, At least that is the idea behind having more valves per cylinder.
Maybe calculated 80% VE in this program means that 4.6L engine can "suck" 3,68L of air/fuel mixture. And this value will be different on 2 or 4 valve engines.
Calculators for converting NA engine to force induction require this value.
Atg has a ve calculator app that is free on the App Store. Have you tried that one before?
There is many variables like engine design. Turbo charged and Supercharged engines will get you over 100 percent 'VE but a regular engine will fall about 80 to 90 percent 'VE. Great video Paul it will help and where did you get the software I don't really use Ve now but will if can get some good software to help with the Math.
Thanks man. It is in the description of this video.
It will be interesting to find out how the program factions at high altitude (about 5,000 ft or higher) under similar conditions. Is VE going to be about same?, or is it going to be different?. Engine load calculation figures should be much less.
👍 thanks!
HOLA PAUL MUY BUENOS VIDEOS GRACIAS POR COMPARTIR,UNA PREGUNTA DONDE PUEDO COMPRAR ESA CALCULADORA?
Aeswave
Use my link please. Thanks! www.aeswave.com/scannerdanner
Love you man.
haha love you too man
Nice ! Paul, question, would you not want the IAT temp and not the outside ambient air temp ?
Probably my friend.
You the man , Paul !
"My truck is way cooler than that F-150!"
Thanks for responding about VE and how its performed on a CVT transmission, but I was also thinking .. is there a way to test VE on a force induction engine?
kindly share the same.
Can "DECS" calculate based on MAP sensor instead of MAF?
I think you should try idle readings to see what it says
Hi i think this test "VE" will be useful when diagnose valve train or timing problems ,and save time by avoid to start test fuel ,ignition or exhaust restricted
what do you think ?
Thank you for all you done .
we are definitely going to find out my friend. Look for more.
thank you
Hey Paul...Have you tried entering different RPM's and all corresponding info just to see how they close they would be.?
YES...I know, that means you have to move that little blue piss off line around some more.. Just take you blood pressure meds (BEER) and give it a try for experimental reasons. LOL Just curious how close the numbers would be.
Cheers Brother
as an expert you are , i wanna ask you about the Chinese Launch scanner tools , what's you opinion , and if you can make comparison with snap on , thank you
On a tool that expensive, a dysfunctional cursor is frankly unacceptable. Step your game up, Strap-On.
Dylan Lewis exactly right.
Snap-On is getting left in the dust by Autel. Their new Maxidas Elite is truely awesome!
Very interesting video and software test. Three questions. First does the program determine VE using mols (chemistry-uhg) or volume? Also I put together an Excel spread sheet to calculate VE (using mols-14.7 mols of O2 per mol of gasoline, assuming pure gas). The spreadsheet also has input for air density using humidity and barometric pressure. (I live at 4200 feet). I've tested it in numerous cars using BARO from my scanner, one I borrowed, from an app on my iPhone, and local weather. For some reason the BARO on both scanner always read 1-2 in/hg more than iPhone or local weather. But the scanners BARO is also less than sea level pressure (so I know it's not correcting for sea level). Any thoughts on why the BARO from the scanners consistently read different? Lastly, are you aware of a program that will give me a MAF estimate based on an assumed 80% VE? My spreadsheet seems to work but I would like to confirm it with another program.
a question for Scott to answer. email him scott@driveabilityguys.com
excellent videoSD what I know is fuel trims have to be good along with MAF to look at VE to trust it as a true breathing problem ie if a maf was overmeasuring air the gps would give you a false high as far as VE along with negative fuel trims from what iv heard pushrod engines your 6.0 litre is probably normal your wifes 5,4 multi valve vvt will test higher. I know VE does not work for speed density cars no way to measure GPS sorry about the cursor situation on the snappy scan tool wondering if maxisys does better with the cursors maybe somebody can chime in thanks again scan take care
What kind of variable (if any) would a high mileage engine be as compared to a new/low mileage have? Or how about an auto trans vs a manual trans?
Can you do this test when engine is at idle ?
I'm familiar with the VE, but it uses more PIDd
what do you do with the information it gives?
probably been said.. intake air temp sensor should be your temp. reading
i have seen a free application for android that does similar calculations not sure of accuracy but may be worth a look.
omg 😂😂😂😂I'm dying. that is me like everday or every other day with my verus.
correct me if I´m wrong but I think I´ve seen my ECU calculate VE itself ? Is that possible on modern ECUs ?I will check that
fwiw our modus ultra with 16.4 software has drag-able cursors. They arent real precise and sometimes take multiple tries to get it where you want, but it is better than what youre fighting against with your verus
To be clear, we are talking about scan data graph cursors right? The scope cursors are okay.
ScannerDanner yes graphing data. I don't use the scope on the modus, I own a pico
ScannerDanner I'll send you a video of it tonight when I can upload it
snap on and their infinite wisdom.... lol I died laughing cause it's the one thing I bitch about every day.
You should check VE on turbo engines , you will be surprised :)
In that case you must use the turbopression and not the barometric pressure???
I wonder if being more specific in the altitude readings would effect VE?
absolutely
IS the screen overlay you use in this software a open source software, available for a cost somewhere or a special software hard to find? Have a link by chance?
I would like to ask what mechanical reasons could make a normal engine (not turbo) have a very high volumetric efficiency and low power.egr, maf, fuel, timing is ok.I understand that the engine draws more air from delayed valves? from wrong camshafts?(1.4 cc low power ve 185%!!!!!!)
You have to be putting the numbers in wrong?
What does scan data calculated load show you on an OBD2 global or generic scan data list?
@@ScannerDanner I didn't make it because the customer took the car and will bring it back and I'll see the calc load, I've just done the ve calculation on many cars but it drove me crazy, I tried it 2 times and the ve comes out very high as if it's a turbo!!!! could a delay in closing the intake valves create such a phenomenon!!! and just to make you laugh, I fixed the car and it has torque again by changing and putting a broken maf that I had from the same model and I knew that at high revs less air is measured and the torque came back hahaha absolutely crazy. when the car arrives I will look at the calc load. my live data is from generic i dont use clobal data ,anyway, at 5000 revolutions a maf measures at 1.4 cc about 56 gr/sec while this one measured about 90 !!!!!.maybe ecm problem? I will let you know when I look at it thanks
Does it work with diesel engines ?
Im in the same boat with MAF sensors
great video. I just want to ask is the volumetric efficiency in % the same thing as the data on the scanner "calculated load" in %?? Thanks.
It is not the same, but similar in how it is being calculated. I'm still learning this stuff btw
does it tell you what to look for when the numbers are in the red? intake restriction exhaust restrictions etc??
Phil, here's an article that may help: www.natef.org/NATEF/media/NATEFMedia/2015%20ASEIEA%20Conference/BOSCH-VE-Test-Diagnostics-SHORT-7-27-15.pdf
Quick question love all your vids learning lots
What the average load in amp or safe amp on a 30 amp fuse?
2017 ridgeline my fuse jumped motor works
Near full speed 23 amps
Then the fuse in my volt meter jumped stupid me 10 amp max
Thx
Hard to say Phil. "They" say 80% of the fuse rating should be maximum current for a circuit. This doesn't mean it will run at 80% the entire time however.
Phil Bourgeois I
Is there a new video with more information
I've used it in a few other case studies, both here on TH-cam and on my premium channel from my website. Thanks!
i wanna ask you if you did videos about remap and tuning ecu ?
Aissaanes Lyes yea yaaaa
I do not. Sorry
ScannerDanner sorry to hear that.
as your experience and your excellent background you will be a star in remap and tuning .
it's just not a world I want to get into. I always tell my students who want to get into mods to let me teach you how this stuff is supposed to work and once you have that down, you can be the best mod guy out there. Most people that get into "tuning" have no idea what they are actually doing. Not to mention troubleshooting when something isn't right.
paul, most of that era F150 WOT is only 88% at the tps. dont know if that helps with any questions but 80% is only 8% off of WOT
This 80% number is not related to the TPS. The throttle was wide open during these runs. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment? Sorry
ScannerDanner What i mean to say is that the fuel maps and ignition curves designed to run that f150 were limited to 88%. not the full 100%. I have no idea if that helps with any information on this test' simply stating that the 88% WOT. will never reach 100% VE if it was only designed to reach 88%. I could be way off in my thinking or having issues trying to put into words what im trying to say.
now do VE test on speed density !!!
What’s the link to the software you mentioned in the video
It is listed on my AESwave affiliate tools page. Link is in the description
BTW, do you like the cursor function in the SnapOn ? :-)
haha nope :-)
Are you using the Verus edge on this video? Does the touch screen support moving the cursors?
Test drive a dealership vehicle and do the VE test to acquire known good variables.
Out of curiosity, why is there no concern about the F150 only making it up to 88% load under WOT? Is that not a sign of a dirty or malfunctioning MAF?
Anything above 80% is considered normal for a naturally aspirated engine. My Silverado was only 80%
Your Slverado displayed a max of 99%, the Lincoln displayed 100%, as for the F150 it displayed a max of 88% load but that seemed like a spike it averaged low 80s while you were in it. I have read elsewhere that anything over 80% is normal but at the same time in my experience there has to be a reason for the ECU to not recognize that you're trying to give it everything it's got.
9 out of ten times that I come across an issue like that it has always been a booger or something on the MAF.
It's like that because the manufacturers want to be able to sell a vehicle anybody can drive at any time of the year, in any climate, and that can make it to 100k without issue. 88% ve is pretty damn good for a eveyday American suv. Ten years ago those numbers were reserved for high end exotics and super bikes.
Christopher Douglas Load and VE are two different things sir. At the beginning of the video he even states that it has been popping lean codes.
Your right I'm a idiot, I read that too fast. 80 ish % load at WOT. It's a tiny bit off but within limits. Checking the pid and putting a scope on it wouldn't hurt to be sure. But i think it might also be a mileage issue, gunked up tb, intake runners, valves restricting a tiny bit of airflow perhaps.
grat video.
how you get a video as background while driving ?
It's a secret :-)
ScannerDanner It is green screen, except he is not using green to everlay the video. He is using the "gray" background.
ScannerDanner 😉
there's. free ve calculators on google play store also OTC do an online one regards Joe
I can easily design this VE calculator on Excel VBA (Visual Basic)
I can't. Do you have any advice for us to realise this?
To get a accurate VE, there are many variables that needs to be consider. But to get a ballpark VE, he defiantly should use IAT instead of outside temperature. I can imagine how much air density will be off if engine got a intercool !.
IAT instead of ambient. Got it! Thanks!
Yes, you want the air temperature of the air going into the engine. The right way should be, drive the car decent speed until AIT is stable (it should not take long) while graphing. Then do the WOT VE test. Otherwise you might have high under hood temperature which can increase IAT. This will give fault air density which will effect VE result.
More stuff for me to learn 🤔
me too :-)
I have that exact same fish hanging from my mirror
?
@@ScannerDanner that fish dangling from the mirror. At minute 6:05
VE makes life easier. Have u in to Esan pro by automotive test Solutions. I recommend u check it out. Great stuff u put out by the way
I hate my Snap-on scanner also. Live and Learn, never again Snap-on.
If your Lincoln is a flex fuel try a comparison with fuel vs ethanol. It would be interesting to verify what we already know, that is ethanol is not efficient at all and although it may be a few cents cheaper gallon per gallon it's a bad idea and is not a viable alternative fuel. Then perhaps a comparison with LP gas. (the government might not like you after they get exposed!)
Ethanol produces less carbon and NOX
LPG likewise.
Yes there is a power output issue because of the lower energy content of these fuels but that wouldn't be problem if manufacturers produced engines designed from the ground up for these fuels.
Here in Europe over the last 10 years we have been cursed by the trend towards diesels for any vehicle 1.8 litre causing particulate and NOX levels in our towns to shoot up.
It is not a flex fuel, unfortunately. That would be fun.
Hey Mr Donna this DECS seem a little bit too much work , sorry that, but i do respect you and your work and knowledge .i also have subscription with you , i can recommend the ECAN PRO by BERNIE THAMPSON automotive test solution . check it it is in my oppinon easier and effetive .
is load your actual VE Calculater Pid