For people who don't like watching zoners, they should just watch some peacock gameplay from skullgirls. Absolutely incredible and ridiculous at the same time
A video like this has needed to exist for a long time. Though funnily enough, I relate to a sentiment in this video as primarily a grappler player. A lot of people I've played against in the past think I just grab them for the big damage and win (or I fail to grab them for the big damage and lose), but they usually don't realize that I've been paying attention to their habits throughout the match to find out when I could get those grabs, rather than wildly throwing them out and hoping something happens. I think zoners get more hate because in general it's a slower paced gameplan with less risk involved, but that situational awareness is still a vital part of how they succeed.
Cool video, i mostly have a zoner playstyle so i get the mindset of playing one. It’s not very viewer friendly cause of how technical things can get but for those who understand whats going in it’s interesting. It’s like you’re playing a mental game with your opponent trying to take away their options to engage while they try to figure out how to get in your space.
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Like wanting to play chess when your opponent insists on playing rugby, if that makes sense?
I love Zoning. I love the ability to control the flow of the game and I love charcters who have that ability to convert into a combo (flashy or not) off of their big button or neutral-in-1-move projectile. It's just so cool to me to do things like that. Characters like Peacock from Skullgirls or Dizzy from GG.
How crazy is it that I got recommended this after getting real-life tilted by my friends Samus in Smash Ultimate, which is weird in itself because I don't usually get mad when playing Smash, but I guess the fact that I've never lost to him that much in a row just got me down.
I play grapplers so zoners are our natural enemies. There are some cool zoners that hit different tho. Some of my favorites are Kan-Ra from Killer Instinct, Snake from Project M, Yukiko from P4U, Saya from Nitroplus, Hermes from Chao Code, Athena in pretty much every KoF game, Chris in MvC:I, Raven in Injustice, Freddy in MK9, Menat in SF5 and Peach in Melee.
I love playing zoners, I just wish there were more zoners whose main gameplan is actually zoning. Modern games lean so heavily in favor of rushdown, oki, and setplay that zoners have started to feel like nothing more than rushdown characters that can blockstring and go for knockdowns from farther away to me.
@@pastorofmuppets9346 I just decided to actually learn how to play SFV and bought Sagat using my FP. Was that a mistake? I have been learning him a bit.
Yeah, I agree. It seems like a lot of big fighting games' response to the problem of zoners being "boring" to play or watch is to provide a ridiculous amount of answers to it. I think the better option would be to make the zoners themselves more exciting
Found your video trough Gekko squirrel and I absolutely agree, I actually picked up axl not so long ago in strive (my main is KY) and playing axl actually though me much more about the game I'm playing than I initially thought. I learned how to switch gears between "play to keep them out, and keep your advantage" to "open up your opponent and punish them to get some big damage", which is such a fundamental skill for me now because I used to just charge in and hope for the best; also paying more attention to health difference is one thing I picked up as axl, it was not something I thought of too much before because I had really strong defensive tools, and I could afford to be in a losing position more, but now I feel like I can actually kinda play defensively instead of just abusing my strong defensive tools. Zoning is pretty cool imo, if you're angry at a character of any archetype I guess playing them does really help you put things in perspective
One thing I like about zoning is it makes you feel like a videogame boss. You're a barrier to overcome. It gives a unique sense of power and leads to an interesting back and forth. I think grapplers can give a similar feeling. Even if your neutral isn't the strongest, your grab is SO scary you control the pace of the game just by threatening grab
Zoners are like a game boss giving crap for the opponent to deal with. Grapplers are like a Slash Movie Killers, that unstopable giant coming to fuck you and ignoring all of yours pleads to stop. That juggernaut just eating your atracks and coming closer to kill you. Rushdowns are... well, when they're played well at least, they become just like a Villain for the more "brain based" fight anime (Jojo, Hunter x Hunter, To Aru, etc.). They start pulling bullshit out their asses and you need to quickly think about it, discover the rules and drawbacks of their style and abuse it. Or else you're on a ride right to hell after the 50th mix up.
Yeah no. If this was true then people would never complain about zoning lol. Also zoning is more safe on block than those “plus on block” buttons because it requires you to actually you know get in. Zoning is free half the time. I rather watch hardcore rush down or footies than zoning
GekkoSquirrel has a series like this. It's much more brief and less in depth than this, but it's not bad at explaining this stuff Edit: somehow, "brief" autocorrected to "money" so I fixed it
I always come back to this video. It’s great for helping newer folks in the FGC get more familiar with the idea of Zoners and their flaws and strengths.
I didn't knew anything about UNIST but I knew it had an awesome character design when at 1:26 before the fight it was extremely clear who was the zoner, there was no doubt, Hilda's sole presence was a statement 😂
The hate for any archetype is really due to the people’s ignorance to the complexity and skill behind them. If you feel angry when playing and losing against them, understandable. I do cause I’m not very good at fighting games. But calling it easy, or a cope out just cause you suck is being stupid and naive.
As someone who prefers zoners and grapplers, I've come to accept that people just like to both and moan that there are characters you aren't supposed to be able to flow chart against
As someone who's played a few zoners, and been on the opposing side against them, they can be cool. I think it's in part game dependent how much people will appreciate them. Also, like you said near the end playing one can help people understand all the thought that goes into playing them.
Really good video. Really hope it gets more views in the future especially from the smash scene. Due to playing a zoner I rarely get to play on stream or get to play many casual matches (friendlies) at all even nearly got punched once lol
I always played fighting game very casually until Guilty Gear Strive, when I was really focusing on a few characters. And while I leanrd the mechanincs and more universal therms like the archetypes, I realized that almost all character I play the most excell and mid to long distances: I'm learning Faust and Axl, I loved playing Dormammu and Ghost Rider in MVC3, Juri and sagat were my mains in SFIV and my favorite Smash characters are Snake and Palutena. That was a bit funny because I hated MVC3 Moprrigan despite I played 2 zoners myself, but I fell she's a but unhealthy (even for MVC standards) and one of those character that reinforce the "Zoners just spam projectiles" stigma. Noe that i discovered which archetypes I like, this makes me go back to previous fighting game to try other characters like Poison, Dizzy and Bedman. I agree with all you said, Zoner don not only are necessary in fighting games since there should be caracters effective at all ranges, but they were part of it from the very start back at Guile and Dalshim in SF II, and
I've been playing Grapplers for as long as I can remember. Fighting zoners is like playing Cuphead, but you're twice as big and move twice as slow. If you're familiar with the scene where Spongebob and Patrick are barraging Squidward with snowballs, that's what it feels like, but it's immensely satisfying to land that SPD/ Potemkin Buster/ Tager Driver and watch the enemy panic.
I think the issue with zoners is that for casuals, playing against one forces use of defensive tools and slow methodical play which they don't like and since low level players can't deal with them, low ranks are full of them, while for spectators, zoning matches can have lots of downtime and the same move being thrown out over and over. Zoners definitely deserve to be part of the fighting game archetype, they're very interesting to play with and against at higher levels of play, but unfortunately its just inherently going to be true that any fighting game with strong zoners are going to less appealing to the general populace as more rushdown focused games and devs know it. They're going to see the monsterous sales of dbzf, the game where every character has a "fuck your zoning im behind you now" button.
My "fuck your zoning im behind you now" button still doesn't stop my friend from just holding back and reacting to what i do when I don't have meter. Basically, make vanish not cost meter. (The last part about vanish not being on meter was a joke when writing, but when writing I thought "What if vanish had a seperate meter that was on cooldown?". Thoughts?)
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@@derpybreads2212 Like Xenoverse? Although Stamina there also has other properties.
My friend hates when I play zoners and I really enjoy having to figure out how to keep the enemy away from me it's a mind game that not much other fighting game characters offer
I figured it out in World Warrior (against the CPU anyway) stay away and use fireballs to chip away. When they inevitably need to come in to do some damage now's your chance!
I like zoners. I really want to play one. But the main game I play is Under Night and as a noob with little patience I'm not practising Yuzu or Vatista, and I don't want to play Phonon or Hilda lol Good video my dude
@@destroyerofworlds4663 50/45/5 nanase/Byakuya/trying whoever else in casuals. I love nanase and Byakuya tho. Wind characters are my favourite in the typical 4 elements. Byakuya is a single player game once you get a single hit in
FIRST thing I noticed when I started to play Guilty Gear... Rushdown has the worst public reception and zoners have the best. This is the first time I've ever seen an FGC where that's a thing and it's really weird.
@@darienb1127 axl is hated, but. Leo, and sol. Gorilla. Unga bunga go brrrr Chaos, and zato +Eddie hehe, funky little dudes. And everyone knows the directional reason people are usually fine with jack-O now plus she's pretty unique
I think it interesting because ppl say they don't like zoning but they actually go back to neutral after every single hit onlike a bit combo of 80 hit where you may as well just go do something else since you can't control your character anymore. Perso I hate combo much more than I hate zoner Sure zoner want to frustrate you so you make mistake but they usually let you play the game... What ppl don't like is probably felling like they play in disadvantage and that fair I can understand why you don't like felling disadvantage tho if you get to them you are at a big advantage zoner got bad quick option and back way to get way most of the time compare to the other character It usually much faster to rush in vs walking slowly back away. Any way my personal opinion is that Zoning is kinda fun actually test your skill alot and also teach you the game much more than the other character will do.
I like zoners with close range options That’s why Dhalsim is my favorite fighting game character he can do stuff from every range and keep an enemy guessing
I think zoners should always have risks, j personally I want a stance char that can swap between zoning and rush down, maybe during rush down has more damage but also takes more, while zoner is slower but has more range
@@jacksondarnell7313 For the most part yes. The main difference is that Eyedol swaps between the two styles at random, I believe you have a small chance of switching styles after every grounded normal or special. Each style has different punch normals, specials, walk speed, dashes and jump trajectory. Eyedol also probably has the best instinct in the entire game, where for a short time he uses both styles at once which allows you to get absurdly high damage.
@@tackwardsfongjump1800 ah, I take it instinct is like a power up everyone has that’s different based on characters? Anyways that actually sounds really cool
I mostly play smash and skullgirls so yeah you could argue that smash isnt a “real fighting game” but i dont care its always beating people up till somebody dies, and in smash i love zoning my friends until they just dont wanna play anymore. I dont play a zoner, i play a slow heavy with two just eh projectiles which is a pretty standard number in smash but playing a character based on melee and armor using projectiles works surprisingly well as it kinda just makes people mad and then they mess up and get hit by my big armored moves, which send them far away again and put me back in a good state for zoning.
thank you for defending my favorite archetype to play as, it honestly means a decent bit to me to see a guy who plays pixie characters, an archetype which tends to have volatile matchups in general but especially against characters who can throw out a lot at once like a lot of zoners, defending the zoner archetype
Believe me, I had the footage ready to use and all (specifically of us) but decided against it to avoid any potential "but Merk isn't a zoner" even though he can zone.
@@EU_DHD I honestly love that matchup cause, while I certainly found it really frustrating, in retrospect I think it's like, a really engaging process to play a non-zoner character against a character with zoning potential? I really miss playing fighting games man T_T
@@blankurr7312 I totally agree. I love playing against Vatista as Nanase and Merkava both. The issue with merk byak tho is that whoever is in advantage has so much momentum that the other really needs to "break out" of the pressure to get anything at all done.
I think zoning is fun when its innovative and JUST zoning isn't the most optimal thing for the character to do, but rather zone to create situations where they shine. Take Rachel from blazblue for example. I think boring or unhealthy methods of zoning are zoners whose biggest strength is ruling the neutral with a simple game plan. AKA Guile, Morrigan with mirror, etc etc. You lose because I have space and the space I cover makes it an uphill battle to touch me kinda zoners. I think Peacock is the grossest example of, I win simply because I am away from you, can easily get away from you and such, but at the same time Skullgirls is skullgirls and even Peacock can be a rushdown trap styled zoner (which is what I love to see from her) Zoners can be very anti-spectator and very anti-interactive for the opponent in some cases which is why I think so many people hate them.
I think my issue with zoners is that they basically force you to play a different game. Which isn’t an inherently bad thing, it’s just that game can feel aggravating and boring, especially for the defender. I understand the thought being put in by zoning players to cover their options and respond, but man I’d rather get opened up by an unga bunga gorilla instead of dying by a thousand stings while I twiddle my thumbs across the screen.
Yeah, I can get that. But I feel like that lack of control can also belong to certain rushdown charatcers. As in, you just get locked in a combo so long that you just don't get to play the game whatsoever.
@@vinle6913 If you don't like fighting Zoners, that's fine. Just don't go out of your way to insult people who do and be a dick. That's where this whole issue starts
I find "unga bunga" rushdown to be the most annoying style to fight against, it's one thing to fight a normal rushdown character but those which were just built to have some random moves that lead to disgusting damage and are fairly safe/spammable are so awful to fight against.
Very good video. Would love to see videos from you on other archetypes. Maybe you should watch TBS's video on Tekken neutral & San-sukumi, that might suffice for the Machabo article.
You can apply people's distaste for zoners to just about every archetype. If zoners just want to hit you with the same projectile over and over, grapplers just want to do the same grab over and over and rushdown characters want to hit you with the same +4 on block punch over and over.
I don't mind zoners. I just hate Happy Chaos from GG Strive. Usually zoning travels from point A to point B and there should be multiple ways to avoid getting hit. Mainly blocking and jumping. And depending on the fighting game, there could be unique mechanics that helps you avoid damage, like the dodge mechanic in Granblue Fantasy Versus. Happy Chaos changes the definition of zoning completely. It's just press a button and you immediately get shot. Only option you got is to block in the corner and slowly a take a step forward if you brave enough. You get pushed back anyways. You can't jump, you can't do anything. Even if you have a zoning tool yourself, it's not fast enough against the constant gunfire. Only option is to block in the corner and take the chip damage. That shit is not fun and even if I had the brain power to overcome it...I never wanna have to put up with that shit again.
A similarly skilled zoner will beat a similarly skilled non-zoner. The disadvantage is stacked against the one who needs to close the gap, navigate the field, and mitigate the damage along the way than someone who throws the projectiles from a safe distance. The mistakes you make as a zoner results to the opponent being dangerously close. The mistakes you make as a non-zoner will have health penalties + the fact that you're still not able to deal damage and close the gap.
@@cornlourd thats so true in so many ways I wish there was more people that see zoners as characters that have to think ahead before throwing random things out
“A zoner will beat a similarly skilled non zoner” that’s just not true at all unless you are talking about like super low lvl play, non zoner vs zoner isn’t just completely free for the zoner
Zoning is probably my second favorite play style honestly no even when I'm playing zoners I play super aggressive. Nothing can top puppet characters for me though.
''Zoners require no skill'' Then why doesn't every pro play a zoner? The easiest characters are 9/10 the most played in any tournament. Why aren't the lower tiers of every fighting game plagued with zoners if they require so little skill and fighing games are notoriously hard to get into?
Zoners being capeable of rushdown probably ads to the dislike for them. You've finally figured out your oponents rythm and decision makeing process, because of that you get in and now it's another game jet again. Also the zoner seems like more of a defensive archetype; them being offensively capeable creates an incomplete archetype and I don't think I'm the only one that preferes complete archetypes.
I like that Hilda at the end pretty cool dash in alot of zoner doesn't have great approach that thing seem pretty good I guess Ranger in DNF dual also got his slide that hit low probably something I should try to use more if I every try him out again I usually tend to shot a bit too much and forget that whene the enemy get close I should probably rush them with the low hit he got that dive them since most ppl will be surprise by the sudden shift in idea. But yah Any way I rarely play the 100% zoner But It can be pretty fun tho I like playing them form time to time I just get a bit destroy because I don't really know how deal with the enemy getting close.
The FGC is full of idiots that like wow-pow-zoomies that don't like thinking (or, indeed, anything other than flashing lights), and both zoners and grapplers get the hate from them.
IMO, Morrigan isn't a zoner. The Marvel community just figured out that the most optimal way to play her is to only use one move, which happens to be her projectile
Wow all them scrubquotes in the beginning lul. I get not wanting to play zoners, but calling people who like playing zoners "lazy" is the biggest cop out ever. Git gud, and learn the match up.
These zoning haters definitely could adopt a healthier mindset and focus on their improvement. I think, however, that there is truth to their complaint. It is much easier to rank up at the lower levels when you pick a zoner and spam fireballs and anti-airs than when you pick a footsie character without any gimmicks.
I'm kinda in a weird state when it comes to zoners. The only one I like to play is Samus from Smash Bros, but I don't use her like a zoner. I play rush down mixup and use the charge blast as a finalizing callout or a quick stun, much like everyone else's kit that has a form of rediculous gimmicks because I'm an impatient, aggressive slab of meat that played call of duty for a pretty good portion of my time on games. And just like in Call of Duty, I can't stand campers that lazily get free kills and wins with minimal effort. It's boring and frustrating to lose to. But in a fighting game, while you will inevitably fight someone who thrives on trolling with lazy strategies, you have a chance of smearing their ego in their face by overcoming their play style. I don't encourage zoning, but it does have a place in fighting games, because you will become better for overcoming what was once an impossible cartoon antagonist.
As a fighting game newbie (and a grappler fan), i f@cking hate Zoners, but i after i bit more experience with these games, i have a bit more respect for them (just a bit).
The death by a thousand cuts is pretty annoying, do have to say though Nu-13 in blazblue is kinda cool though in my opinion, the combos at least have a nice sound/feel to them.
Zoning is fine but most people that play zoners are spammers (in smash: ness, the belmonts, palutena, rob, samus, the links and more) lol there’s a reason why most people don’t like the characters, in fighting games you’re supposed to fight by getting close and comboing your opponent, and a lot of zoners try to never touch you and throw out projectiles so you never get near them, the character archetype fundamentally opposes what fighting games are supposed to be imo and it doesn’t make it any better that zoners or more specifically spam characters which are predominantly zoners are the easiest characters to play in any fighting game compared to the rest of the roster (I’m sure there are exceptions but generally speaking they are wayyyyyy easier) characters like dhalsim from street fighter are fine with me but characters like palutena from smash are annoying (not impossible to beat but annoying)
“Supposed to” Stop right there. Fighting games aren’t “supposed to” be anything. Zoners in fighting games predate combos in fighting games, and even then combos were originally the result of an exploit. They were here before fighting game designers even knew how to design fighting games in a general sense. The fact that they’ve stuck around for decades after in spite of the genre’s endless experimentation and innovation implies that they work and are fundamental to it. Honestly, if you snapped your fingers and zoners suddenly vanished from every single fighting game, would you honestly be satisfied? Or would you start complaining about other characters, other aspects of play, like 90% of everyone else? Would you start looking at characters who are *slightly less* rushdown and start ragging on them in the zoners’ places, or would you maybe get sick of the homogeny? Hell, there are so many people out there who despise the very idea of combos in fighting games, zoners provide an alternative to that that requires entirely different skills.
@@technicolormischief-maker5683 if zones were gone Id be completely fine with it. Also that idea that because zoners stuck around for so long so they must work is just well wrong. People tolerate grapples but even most pros hate them. This applies to zoners as well. There are some concepts that I’m fine with getting rid of just to have a more fun game
Frieza's fun as hell and has good ass screen control But I don't think he's a good zoner There's nothing to worry about when Frieza's just tossing out pillars, the pizzas and especially 5s. He does such little chip damage that he just can't be considered a good zoner
What makes me dislike zoners as much as I do are young Joseph players. I launch fightcade hoping for a good intense match to see those kids pressing the same cracker volley button over and over again. And it's not even effective, they always get punished hard by it, and then next round they do the same shit again...
Grappler Player here... Uhhhhhhhh it's about time we used cancel culture and cancelled zoners. Have u ever fought deadshot in injustice (a game known with huge stages where people can run the whole time and not get stuck in the corner)
Just because it ain't braindead like some ignorant folks would say, doesn't make it cool. Not even including combos a lot of my favorite parts of fighting game just aren't as present, like footies, mixups, grabs, reads, etc. So generally zoners are my least favorite to watch and play against.
I'm sure at top level zoners are perfectly interesting and fair, but for most people playing there is a huge skill and execution gap between and zoners and the person trying to get in. Secondly, there are a lot of zoners that are also good up close. Guile, Dhalsim in SFV, and so on. Zoners who can do full combos at range mean that the risk-reward is intrinsically in their favour, which is more bad desgin. There are better ways to design a character that is fun for both parties. Zoning is fun for only one person.
I like zoning because i like to annoy people .....especially against pros. I feel it is my duty to frustrate and break them down. It is so satisfying seeing them rage. And when the zoning becomes so high level... i feel that they cannot do anything to make a comeback after that. And plus the timer is also my friend...
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [1/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vLGjxFL6U_I/mqdefault.jpg)
For people who don't like watching zoners, they should just watch some peacock gameplay from skullgirls. Absolutely incredible and ridiculous at the same time
Best zoner character ever, nothing will change my mind on that
I've been zoned by her and it's actually enjoyable, it feels awesome 😂 like you're truly being the victim of a mafie cartoon's shooting
thats not fun to watch or play u should have picked a better example tbh that shit is just annoying lol
peacock?
ohh you mean SPAWN OF SATAN
I find Morrigan astral vision in umvc3 is more gay. Add some projectile assist, it can drain you fast even with chip dmg
A video like this has needed to exist for a long time. Though funnily enough, I relate to a sentiment in this video as primarily a grappler player. A lot of people I've played against in the past think I just grab them for the big damage and win (or I fail to grab them for the big damage and lose), but they usually don't realize that I've been paying attention to their habits throughout the match to find out when I could get those grabs, rather than wildly throwing them out and hoping something happens. I think zoners get more hate because in general it's a slower paced gameplan with less risk involved, but that situational awareness is still a vital part of how they succeed.
Smooth-brain rushdown players, am I right?
Agreed 100% .Zoners and Grapplers get a lot of hate for no reason because people don't know how to deal with them.
Cool video, i mostly have a zoner playstyle so i get the mindset of playing one. It’s not very viewer friendly cause of how technical things can get but for those who understand whats going in it’s interesting. It’s like you’re playing a mental game with your opponent trying to take away their options to engage while they try to figure out how to get in your space.
Like wanting to play chess when your opponent insists on playing rugby, if that makes sense?
@ So chess boxing
I love Zoning. I love the ability to control the flow of the game and I love charcters who have that ability to convert into a combo (flashy or not) off of their big button or neutral-in-1-move projectile. It's just so cool to me to do things like that.
Characters like Peacock from Skullgirls or Dizzy from GG.
How crazy is it that I got recommended this after getting real-life tilted by my friends Samus in Smash Ultimate, which is weird in itself because I don't usually get mad when playing Smash, but I guess the fact that I've never lost to him that much in a row just got me down.
Lol 😂, happens to the best of us
Man I got tilted once when my friend used Luigi and kept getting the the rocket. Got swept for the first time in forever cause of it.
I play grapplers so zoners are our natural enemies. There are some cool zoners that hit different tho. Some of my favorites are Kan-Ra from Killer Instinct, Snake from Project M, Yukiko from P4U, Saya from Nitroplus, Hermes from Chao Code, Athena in pretty much every KoF game, Chris in MvC:I, Raven in Injustice, Freddy in MK9, Menat in SF5 and Peach in Melee.
All of those are super cool and it's nice to see lesser known characters like Saya and Hermes ^^
I love playing zoners, I just wish there were more zoners whose main gameplan is actually zoning. Modern games lean so heavily in favor of rushdown, oki, and setplay that zoners have started to feel like nothing more than rushdown characters that can blockstring and go for knockdowns from farther away to me.
i feel ya, for example in sfv the only zoner who really doesn't have offense is sagat. and he sucks...
@@pastorofmuppets9346 I just decided to actually learn how to play SFV and bought Sagat using my FP. Was that a mistake? I have been learning him a bit.
@@knightshade2654 hes not terrible but has some painful matchups. Specially online, classic zoning is a pain in sfv
Yeah, I agree. It seems like a lot of big fighting games' response to the problem of zoners being "boring" to play or watch is to provide a ridiculous amount of answers to it. I think the better option would be to make the zoners themselves more exciting
@@Luna19912it’s pretty difficult to make a zoner exciting when their entire hope is to make it a single player game imo.
Found your video trough Gekko squirrel and I absolutely agree, I actually picked up axl not so long ago in strive (my main is KY) and playing axl actually though me much more about the game I'm playing than I initially thought.
I learned how to switch gears between "play to keep them out, and keep your advantage" to "open up your opponent and punish them to get some big damage", which is such a fundamental skill for me now because I used to just charge in and hope for the best; also paying more attention to health difference is one thing I picked up as axl, it was not something I thought of too much before because I had really strong defensive tools, and I could afford to be in a losing position more, but now I feel like I can actually kinda play defensively instead of just abusing my strong defensive tools.
Zoning is pretty cool imo, if you're angry at a character of any archetype I guess playing them does really help you put things in perspective
this whole being smart when playing with an opponent is something i subconsciously love about fighting games and so i will try a zoner
3:57 that was a great example
One thing I like about zoning is it makes you feel like a videogame boss. You're a barrier to overcome. It gives a unique sense of power and leads to an interesting back and forth.
I think grapplers can give a similar feeling. Even if your neutral isn't the strongest, your grab is SO scary you control the pace of the game just by threatening grab
Zoners are like a game boss giving crap for the opponent to deal with.
Grapplers are like a Slash Movie Killers, that unstopable giant coming to fuck you and ignoring all of yours pleads to stop. That juggernaut just eating your atracks and coming closer to kill you.
Rushdowns are... well, when they're played well at least, they become just like a Villain for the more "brain based" fight anime (Jojo, Hunter x Hunter, To Aru, etc.).
They start pulling bullshit out their asses and you need to quickly think about it, discover the rules and drawbacks of their style and abuse it. Or else you're on a ride right to hell after the 50th mix up.
Zoning is 100x more fun to watch AND play against than running forward and mashing buttons that are plus on block for 30 seconds at a time
Yeah no. If this was true then people would never complain about zoning lol.
Also zoning is more safe on block than those “plus on block” buttons because it requires you to actually you know get in. Zoning is free half the time.
I rather watch hardcore rush down or footies than zoning
nobody thats above average at the game does that stop making shit up.
I wish there were more videos like this analyzing specific character archetypes and maybe some mixes
GekkoSquirrel has a series like this. It's much more brief and less in depth than this, but it's not bad at explaining this stuff
Edit: somehow, "brief" autocorrected to "money" so I fixed it
@@noelvyhnanek5951 Thanks! i'll check it out
I always come back to this video. It’s great for helping newer folks in the FGC get more familiar with the idea of Zoners and their flaws and strengths.
I didn't knew anything about UNIST but I knew it had an awesome character design when at 1:26 before the fight it was extremely clear who was the zoner, there was no doubt, Hilda's sole presence was a statement 😂
This video deserves more views
Back again on a rewatch, this video is criminally underrated and deserve more views, but I guess even the algorithm hates zoners
I love a good zoner I think it's usually a super tactical type of play
I see no injustice 2 gameplay... what is this
Deadshot zoneing literally ruined injustice for me
Deadshot got nerfed
The hate for any archetype is really due to the people’s ignorance to the complexity and skill behind them. If you feel angry when playing and losing against them, understandable. I do cause I’m not very good at fighting games. But calling it easy, or a cope out just cause you suck is being stupid and naive.
As someone who prefers zoners and grapplers, I've come to accept that people just like to both and moan that there are characters you aren't supposed to be able to flow chart against
As someone who's played a few zoners, and been on the opposing side against them, they can be cool. I think it's in part game dependent how much people will appreciate them. Also, like you said near the end playing one can help people understand all the thought that goes into playing them.
Really good video. Really hope it gets more views in the future especially from the smash scene. Due to playing a zoner I rarely get to play on stream or get to play many casual matches (friendlies) at all even nearly got punched once lol
I always played fighting game very casually until Guilty Gear Strive, when I was really focusing on a few characters. And while I leanrd the mechanincs and more universal therms like the archetypes, I realized that almost all character I play the most excell and mid to long distances: I'm learning Faust and Axl, I loved playing Dormammu and Ghost Rider in MVC3, Juri and sagat were my mains in SFIV and my favorite Smash characters are Snake and Palutena.
That was a bit funny because I hated MVC3 Moprrigan despite I played 2 zoners myself, but I fell she's a but unhealthy (even for MVC standards) and one of those character that reinforce the "Zoners just spam projectiles" stigma. Noe that i discovered which archetypes I like, this makes me go back to previous fighting game to try other characters like Poison, Dizzy and Bedman.
I agree with all you said, Zoner don not only are necessary in fighting games since there should be caracters effective at all ranges, but they were part of it from the very start back at Guile and Dalshim in SF II, and
While watching this video I thought that this was clearly a 100k sub channel. Keep it up you’ll become one of the best in no time. 😊
Daww, thank you
People that don't like zones are the same people that don't block and get mad when they lose.
I've been playing Grapplers for as long as I can remember. Fighting zoners is like playing Cuphead, but you're twice as big and move twice as slow.
If you're familiar with the scene where Spongebob and Patrick are barraging Squidward with snowballs, that's what it feels like, but it's immensely satisfying to land that SPD/ Potemkin Buster/ Tager Driver and watch the enemy panic.
I think the issue with zoners is that for casuals, playing against one forces use of defensive tools and slow methodical play which they don't like and since low level players can't deal with them, low ranks are full of them, while for spectators, zoning matches can have lots of downtime and the same move being thrown out over and over. Zoners definitely deserve to be part of the fighting game archetype, they're very interesting to play with and against at higher levels of play, but unfortunately its just inherently going to be true that any fighting game with strong zoners are going to less appealing to the general populace as more rushdown focused games and devs know it. They're going to see the monsterous sales of dbzf, the game where every character has a "fuck your zoning im behind you now" button.
My "fuck your zoning im behind you now" button still doesn't stop my friend from just holding back and reacting to what i do when I don't have meter. Basically, make vanish not cost meter. (The last part about vanish not being on meter was a joke when writing, but when writing I thought "What if vanish had a seperate meter that was on cooldown?". Thoughts?)
@@derpybreads2212 Like Xenoverse?
Although Stamina there also has other properties.
I love playing as and against zoners probably because I have a very unhealthy obsession with neutral and footsies
My friend hates when I play zoners and I really enjoy having to figure out how to keep the enemy away from me it's a mind game that not much other fighting game characters offer
I figured it out in World Warrior (against the CPU anyway) stay away and use fireballs to chip away. When they inevitably need to come in to do some damage now's your chance!
I like zoners. I really want to play one. But the main game I play is Under Night and as a noob with little patience I'm not practising Yuzu or Vatista, and I don't want to play Phonon or Hilda lol
Good video my dude
What character are you currently playing, and do you like them enough?
@@destroyerofworlds4663 50/45/5 nanase/Byakuya/trying whoever else in casuals.
I love nanase and Byakuya tho. Wind characters are my favourite in the typical 4 elements. Byakuya is a single player game once you get a single hit in
@@greenhillmario How about you play Merkava? He has long range normals like zoners but is more focused on okizeme
@@destroyerofworlds4663 I just don’t like merkava really. I’d say it’s the micro dash 2b that kills him for me, it just doesn’t feel good to do
@@greenhillmario Ok, well, why don't you want to play Phonon or Hilda?
FIRST thing I noticed when I started to play Guilty Gear...
Rushdown has the worst public reception and zoners have the best.
This is the first time I've ever seen an FGC where that's a thing and it's really weird.
Really? Because I've been seeing the opposite in Strive.
@@darienb1127 axl is hated, but.
Leo, and sol. Gorilla. Unga bunga go brrrr
Chaos, and zato +Eddie hehe, funky little dudes.
And everyone knows the directional reason people are usually fine with jack-O now plus she's pretty unique
Jacko is so much more interesting now that no matter what kind of fckd up shit she can do people will still appreciate it
@@dj_koen1265a good asuka is mind numbing
I think it interesting because ppl say they don't like zoning but they actually go back to neutral after every single hit onlike a bit combo of 80 hit where you may as well just go do something else since you can't control your character anymore.
Perso I hate combo much more than I hate zoner Sure zoner want to frustrate you so you make mistake but they usually let you play the game... What ppl don't like is probably felling like they play in disadvantage and that fair I can understand why you don't like felling disadvantage tho if you get to them you are at a big advantage zoner got bad quick option and back way to get way most of the time compare to the other character It usually much faster to rush in vs walking slowly back away.
Any way my personal opinion is that Zoning is kinda fun actually test your skill alot and also teach you the game much more than the other character will do.
I like zoners with close range options
That’s why Dhalsim is my favorite fighting game character he can do stuff from every range and keep an enemy guessing
I think zoners should always have risks, j personally I want a stance char that can swap between zoning and rush down, maybe during rush down has more damage but also takes more, while zoner is slower but has more range
So Eyedol
@@tackwardsfongjump1800 I haven’t played much KI, what does he do? Is it like what I described?
@@jacksondarnell7313 For the most part yes. The main difference is that Eyedol swaps between the two styles at random, I believe you have a small chance of switching styles after every grounded normal or special.
Each style has different punch normals, specials, walk speed, dashes and jump trajectory.
Eyedol also probably has the best instinct in the entire game, where for a short time he uses both styles at once which allows you to get absurdly high damage.
@@tackwardsfongjump1800 ah, I take it instinct is like a power up everyone has that’s different based on characters? Anyways that actually sounds really cool
There's an *Eyedol* character breakdown by the channel "Eastyy". You should watch it
I mostly play smash and skullgirls so yeah you could argue that smash isnt a “real fighting game” but i dont care its always beating people up till somebody dies, and in smash i love zoning my friends until they just dont wanna play anymore. I dont play a zoner, i play a slow heavy with two just eh projectiles which is a pretty standard number in smash but playing a character based on melee and armor using projectiles works surprisingly well as it kinda just makes people mad and then they mess up and get hit by my big armored moves, which send them far away again and put me back in a good state for zoning.
thank you for defending my favorite archetype to play as, it honestly means a decent bit to me to see a guy who plays pixie characters, an archetype which tends to have volatile matchups in general but especially against characters who can throw out a lot at once like a lot of zoners, defending the zoner archetype
YOOO, been waiting for years for this!
No Merk tho :)
Believe me, I had the footage ready to use and all (specifically of us) but decided against it to avoid any potential "but Merk isn't a zoner" even though he can zone.
@@DazIsBambo I get it. could have used Merk v Byak lol. Sad MU
@@EU_DHD I honestly love that matchup cause, while I certainly found it really frustrating, in retrospect I think it's like, a really engaging process to play a non-zoner character against a character with zoning potential?
I really miss playing fighting games man T_T
@@blankurr7312 I totally agree. I love playing against Vatista as Nanase and Merkava both. The issue with merk byak tho is that whoever is in advantage has so much momentum that the other really needs to "break out" of the pressure to get anything at all done.
I think zoning is fun when its innovative and JUST zoning isn't the most optimal thing for the character to do, but rather zone to create situations where they shine. Take Rachel from blazblue for example. I think boring or unhealthy methods of zoning are zoners whose biggest strength is ruling the neutral with a simple game plan. AKA Guile, Morrigan with mirror, etc etc. You lose because I have space and the space I cover makes it an uphill battle to touch me kinda zoners.
I think Peacock is the grossest example of, I win simply because I am away from you, can easily get away from you and such, but at the same time Skullgirls is skullgirls and even Peacock can be a rushdown trap styled zoner (which is what I love to see from her)
Zoners can be very anti-spectator and very anti-interactive for the opponent in some cases which is why I think so many people hate them.
I like your perspective. Rachel is a great example to demonstrate your point!
I think my issue with zoners is that they basically force you to play a different game. Which isn’t an inherently bad thing, it’s just that game can feel aggravating and boring, especially for the defender.
I understand the thought being put in by zoning players to cover their options and respond, but man I’d rather get opened up by an unga bunga gorilla instead of dying by a thousand stings while I twiddle my thumbs across the screen.
I hate fighting zoners on Tekken
Yeah, I can get that. But I feel like that lack of control can also belong to certain rushdown charatcers. As in, you just get locked in a combo so long that you just don't get to play the game whatsoever.
@@vinle6913 If you don't like fighting Zoners, that's fine. Just don't go out of your way to insult people who do and be a dick. That's where this whole issue starts
I find "unga bunga" rushdown to be the most annoying style to fight against, it's one thing to fight a normal rushdown character but those which were just built to have some random moves that lead to disgusting damage and are fairly safe/spammable are so awful to fight against.
I agree justice from guilty gear xx accent core +R is pretty cool
4:01 that song reminds me of the last ep of school days
Very good video. Would love to see videos from you on other archetypes. Maybe you should watch TBS's video on Tekken neutral & San-sukumi, that might suffice for the Machabo article.
You can apply people's distaste for zoners to just about every archetype. If zoners just want to hit you with the same projectile over and over, grapplers just want to do the same grab over and over and rushdown characters want to hit you with the same +4 on block punch over and over.
I play a wired mix of rush down and zoning in FGs. Tbh I'm probably just better off fully embracing zoners. I tend to fall back on it anyway
PLEASE TURN YOUR VIDEO VOLUME UP! I had to use a firefox addon called sound fixer at max gain to even hear you.
this was well made, can't wait for the next video
I have always enjoyed playing against a zoner play style.
As long as the zoner isn’t just spamming projectiles.
Especially online.
They hate it because it change their fighting styles so it change basically just like when you have to play hard against a power house.
I don't mind zoners. I just hate Happy Chaos from GG Strive.
Usually zoning travels from point A to point B and there should be multiple ways to avoid getting hit. Mainly blocking and jumping. And depending on the fighting game, there could be unique mechanics that helps you avoid damage, like the dodge mechanic in Granblue Fantasy Versus.
Happy Chaos changes the definition of zoning completely. It's just press a button and you immediately get shot. Only option you got is to block in the corner and slowly a take a step forward if you brave enough. You get pushed back anyways. You can't jump, you can't do anything. Even if you have a zoning tool yourself, it's not fast enough against the constant gunfire. Only option is to block in the corner and take the chip damage. That shit is not fun and even if I had the brain power to overcome it...I never wanna have to put up with that shit again.
God i love your channel and style
I agree, it's a breath of fresh air sometimes.
Great stuff man :) Really enjoyed it.
Thanks a lot! I appreciate the comment!
I like using zoners because thinking is a nice break from how i usually play fighting games.
Tekken players: "I don't have such weaknesses"
I think zoners takes skill for the most part it's hard to keep people away
A similarly skilled zoner will beat a similarly skilled non-zoner. The disadvantage is stacked against the one who needs to close the gap, navigate the field, and mitigate the damage along the way than someone who throws the projectiles from a safe distance. The mistakes you make as a zoner results to the opponent being dangerously close. The mistakes you make as a non-zoner will have health penalties + the fact that you're still not able to deal damage and close the gap.
@@cornlourd thats so true in so many ways I wish there was more people that see zoners as characters that have to think ahead before throwing random things out
“A zoner will beat a similarly skilled non zoner” that’s just not true at all unless you are talking about like super low lvl play, non zoner vs zoner isn’t just completely free for the zoner
While it may take skill, it doesn't make it enjoyable for the opponent
I just gotta say Justice is a fair and balanced character with a lot of depth
Playing zoners is so much harder than people think.
Zoning is probably my second favorite play style honestly no even when I'm playing zoners I play super aggressive. Nothing can top puppet characters for me though.
''Zoners require no skill''
Then why doesn't every pro play a zoner? The easiest characters are 9/10 the most played in any tournament.
Why aren't the lower tiers of every fighting game plagued with zoners if they require so little skill and fighing games are notoriously hard to get into?
Zoners being capeable of rushdown probably ads to the dislike for them.
You've finally figured out your oponents rythm and decision makeing process, because of that you get in and now it's another game jet again.
Also the zoner seems like more of a defensive archetype; them being offensively capeable creates an incomplete archetype and I don't think I'm the only one that preferes complete archetypes.
I’m going test out guile and menat because of this video….thx
I like that Hilda at the end pretty cool dash in alot of zoner doesn't have great approach that thing seem pretty good
I guess Ranger in DNF dual also got his slide that hit low probably something I should try to use more if I every try him out again I usually tend to shot a bit too much and forget that whene the enemy get close I should probably rush them with the low hit he got that dive them since most ppl will be surprise by the sudden shift in idea.
But yah Any way I rarely play the 100% zoner But It can be pretty fun tho I like playing them form time to time I just get a bit destroy because I don't really know how deal with the enemy getting close.
As a grappler main that title triggers me.
The FGC is full of idiots that like wow-pow-zoomies that don't like thinking (or, indeed, anything other than flashing lights), and both zoners and grapplers get the hate from them.
Unless it's netherrealm zoners
Those make me lose my already precarious will to live
IMO, Morrigan isn't a zoner. The Marvel community just figured out that the most optimal way to play her is to only use one move, which happens to be her projectile
Thank you for this gift of a video!
Wow all them scrubquotes in the beginning lul. I get not wanting to play zoners, but calling people who like playing zoners "lazy" is the biggest cop out ever. Git gud, and learn the match up.
These zoning haters definitely could adopt a healthier mindset and focus on their improvement. I think, however, that there is truth to their complaint. It is much easier to rank up at the lower levels when you pick a zoner and spam fireballs and anti-airs than when you pick a footsie character without any gimmicks.
I'm kinda in a weird state when it comes to zoners. The only one I like to play is Samus from Smash Bros, but I don't use her like a zoner. I play rush down mixup and use the charge blast as a finalizing callout or a quick stun, much like everyone else's kit that has a form of rediculous gimmicks because I'm an impatient, aggressive slab of meat that played call of duty for a pretty good portion of my time on games. And just like in Call of Duty, I can't stand campers that lazily get free kills and wins with minimal effort. It's boring and frustrating to lose to. But in a fighting game, while you will inevitably fight someone who thrives on trolling with lazy strategies, you have a chance of smearing their ego in their face by overcoming their play style. I don't encourage zoning, but it does have a place in fighting games, because you will become better for overcoming what was once an impossible cartoon antagonist.
Zoning isn't Lazy, you have to actually use your brain to be able to zone
As a fighting game newbie (and a grappler fan), i f@cking hate Zoners, but i after i bit more experience with these games, i have a bit more respect for them (just a bit).
Just fought a peacock, double, big band team on skullgirls... Fuck zoners
The duality of man
Killer Instinct zoners are quite aggressive zoners don't really know where to go with this but maybe this could be your conversation point lol
Another delicious less than 200 subs channel
Chris G agrees so does pre 2010 jwong
The death by a thousand cuts is pretty annoying, do have to say though Nu-13 in blazblue is kinda cool though in my opinion, the combos at least have a nice sound/feel to them.
3:57 what is this song? Ive been looking for it for months went through the entire ost it feels like and couldnt find it.
Granblue Fantasy Versus - Existence. Guess I forgot to list that one the description, haha
Zoners without projectiles are cool but projectile zoning is annoying in most slow paced grounded fighting games.
deserves more views. i disagree with ur opinion but good video
Thanks!
Great video!
Zoning is fine but most people that play zoners are spammers (in smash: ness, the belmonts, palutena, rob, samus, the links and more) lol there’s a reason why most people don’t like the characters, in fighting games you’re supposed to fight by getting close and comboing your opponent, and a lot of zoners try to never touch you and throw out projectiles so you never get near them, the character archetype fundamentally opposes what fighting games are supposed to be imo and it doesn’t make it any better that zoners or more specifically spam characters which are predominantly zoners are the easiest characters to play in any fighting game compared to the rest of the roster (I’m sure there are exceptions but generally speaking they are wayyyyyy easier) characters like dhalsim from street fighter are fine with me but characters like palutena from smash are annoying (not impossible to beat but annoying)
“Supposed to”
Stop right there. Fighting games aren’t “supposed to” be anything. Zoners in fighting games predate combos in fighting games, and even then combos were originally the result of an exploit. They were here before fighting game designers even knew how to design fighting games in a general sense. The fact that they’ve stuck around for decades after in spite of the genre’s endless experimentation and innovation implies that they work and are fundamental to it.
Honestly, if you snapped your fingers and zoners suddenly vanished from every single fighting game, would you honestly be satisfied? Or would you start complaining about other characters, other aspects of play, like 90% of everyone else? Would you start looking at characters who are *slightly less* rushdown and start ragging on them in the zoners’ places, or would you maybe get sick of the homogeny? Hell, there are so many people out there who despise the very idea of combos in fighting games, zoners provide an alternative to that that requires entirely different skills.
@@technicolormischief-maker5683 if zones were gone Id be completely fine with it.
Also that idea that because zoners stuck around for so long so they must work is just well wrong. People tolerate grapples but even most pros hate them. This applies to zoners as well. There are some concepts that I’m fine with getting rid of just to have a more fun game
Spamming only works if the game is terribly unbalanced or if you're bad.
I have a new protective on zoners thanks
Without Zoners I wouldn't get a high from beating them
Frieza is a good zoner though. I always have it as my last fighter and sometimes I win 1v3
Frieza's fun as hell and has good ass screen control
But I don't think he's a good zoner
There's nothing to worry about when Frieza's just tossing out pillars, the pizzas and especially 5s. He does such little chip damage that he just can't be considered a good zoner
Zoning is sick
I'd rather play 10 matches against thr most campy Peacock than one match getting bullied by Annie. Rushdown feels less interactive to me than zoning.
Musics too hype for this guys narration
I see you changed your thumbnail
Haha, yeah. The old one was pretty messy.
What makes me dislike zoners as much as I do are young Joseph players. I launch fightcade hoping for a good intense match to see those kids pressing the same cracker volley button over and over again.
And it's not even effective, they always get punished hard by it, and then next round they do the same shit again...
i love to play zoners but when i play with my friend i try to not play em
Grappler Player here... Uhhhhhhhh it's about time we used cancel culture and cancelled zoners. Have u ever fought deadshot in injustice (a game known with huge stages where people can run the whole time and not get stuck in the corner)
Zoning and spamming are not the same,you guys just don't understand this
@@terrordoserasa2667 when did i say the word "spamming" in my message?
@@1starfalco1 because the example that you commented is just pure spam,i know cuz many players left the game because of this
@@1starfalco1 "cancel culture cancelling zoners"
-uses deadshot from injustice 2 as an example of zoner
That was my conclusion with this comment
I play normal based zoners!
I can never like zoners, especially smash ults zoners
Just because it ain't braindead like some ignorant folks would say, doesn't make it cool. Not even including combos a lot of my favorite parts of fighting game just aren't as present, like footies, mixups, grabs, reads, etc. So generally zoners are my least favorite to watch and play against.
Zoners should only be pitted against grapplers, and vice versa. ;7
Nah, rushdown players should be pitted against grapplers and zoners until they develop a functioning brain.
I have been saying it for years!
I'm sure at top level zoners are perfectly interesting and fair, but for most people playing there is a huge skill and execution gap between and zoners and the person trying to get in.
Secondly, there are a lot of zoners that are also good up close. Guile, Dhalsim in SFV, and so on.
Zoners who can do full combos at range mean that the risk-reward is intrinsically in their favour, which is more bad desgin.
There are better ways to design a character that is fun for both parties. Zoning is fun for only one person.
Zoners fun to play
Whats the game with the disgusting vile lolli and the arher girl?
Granblue Versus
I like zoning because i like to annoy people .....especially against pros. I feel it is my duty to frustrate and break them down. It is so satisfying seeing them rage. And when the zoning becomes so high level... i feel that they cannot do anything to make a comeback after that. And plus the timer is also my friend...
My First "Real" Zoner was Nu in BBCF. That Was Miserable. My Kokonoe Zoned better