I think the biggest reason she-hulk looks weird to me is that the Hulk, like you said, doesn't look human. Whereas she-hulk look like a normal actress with a green tint after effect applied (granted expertly done). Also she is so perfect, no skin imperfection, no peach fuzz, meanwhile the hulk is gruff and has tons of minor details. It's so strange seeing her and the hulk standing next to each other, b/c they seem like completely different styles.
Also at certain times in the trailer she doesn’t look proportional. People want big and lean and she just looks tall and lanky in some scenes. So it’s not exactly the VFX but the overall style they are portraying her as. She has so many different styles in the comics to choose from so it’s disappointing to see hers thighs and arms so tiny.
I'm also concerned they went with the "sexy" Sensational She-Hulk character design, as opposed to some of the more modern, athletic versions that wouldn't have been as jarring next to Bruce.
Not to mention, she's wearing normal people clothes in the "worst" shots. No one knows what a Spider-Man suit looks like, but everyone knows what a pant-suit blazer looks like. All of which is moot because I don't have Disney+. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good job!
I think your problem (with the Hulk being an inhuman monster, while She-Hulk is essentially just an attractive woman with green skin) goes all the way back to the original design of the characters themselves, though. And is not that related to the VFX.
I suggest you guys take a look at Prehistoric Planet by David Attenborough - possibly the most realistic looking dinosaurs filmed through the perspective of a documentary. Just gorgeous
Yeaa Idky they were i got a bit vibe that they were being kinda salty when they were reviewing that and i was most excited about their review of that only. Lol I thought they will appreciate it like helll
The problem with She-Hulk at least for me that her movements are too smooth for a human, she moves with a smooth 60fps while everyone else is just around 30-45fps making her look out of place. All the fuss about the trailer quality is that, this is a trailer, finely picked scenes that Marvel chose to show the world what the series is capable of, so even if some of those finely picked scenes are flawed, what guarantee that even more scenes are just as if not more flaw than those trailer scenes.
Exactly. That’s my feeling. Like if this is your finely curated clips from the show and they turn me off this much I can’t imagine the show and the level of uncanniness.
That is a really good observation, because her animation sometimes feels too smooth and perfect like a machine rather than a person, her facial expressions lack human qualities in the sense of not being perfect, the 3D models themselves are perfectly fine from a detail standpoint, but the animation is what really is letting the hard work of the 3D artists down.
That’s literally how all CGI is done. But it’s more off putting with human faces because the uncalled valley will always shine through. Plus, it’s Tatiana Maslaney doing mo-cap. Don’t think they really needed to animate the walking.
7:51 one thing that stands out is she doesn't blink. it's actually a rule in animation to make characters blink when they turn their heads because most people do that irl.
Love, Death and Robots Volume 1: "Beyond the aquila rift" has some absolutely bonkers facial animation. Very photo realistic imo. They managed to capture the subtle tics of the facial muscles near perfectly.
Yeah, but at the end of the day Love, Death and Robots is an animation show. And while they occasionally incorporate elements of photo realism, it's animation and should be judged as such.
I didn't see the She-hulk trailer and had no priors on whatever controversy it drummed up. But the thing I IMMEDIATELY noticed in that one shot of her looking over her shoulder is that her clothes look so fake. Her suit and shirt look like they are made of rubber, and they don't move realistically as she turns which gives such a bizarre look. I don't think the character looks that bad actually.
I think it's more the fact that sometimes her skin colour is too saturated. IMO the ebst thing they did to Hulk was make him a bit more olive green, take out a little saturation, that made him instantly look 10x better. It just makes her look like a toy made our of rubber and plastic. It makes the shine look fake. The Ruffalo Hulk doesn't have that anymore, he is much more yellowish in his complexion. I think the best looking shots are the one where she is in the restaurant lighting because they randomly took out a lot of the green, looks much better.
@@brabhamF1 That specific shot is more of an animation issue, her swivels her head unnaturally while her eyes move a little oddly. It's weird that they picked this shot for the trailer.
I would bet that if that shot is in the show, and wasn't just made for the trailer, the clothes will be simulated. Got to remember that for trailers they are showing you parts of the show months in advance. Specifically the VFX which are some of the most time intensive things. They are cutting whatever corners they can to get it out for the trailer and have it presentable. The final product will probably have simulated clothes and more polished animation.
@@sun_beams You're correct but honestly I've never understood that business practice. Of course you need to get the name out there and start generating hype, but if you release it TOO soon you run the risk of massive fan backlash (which is exactly what happened). In the days of early CG making that mistake was understandable but how executives, particularly at a company like Disney and Marvel Studios who have been at the forefront of VFX for the last decade still push out an unfinished trailer and don't know it's going to do more harm than good is beyond me.
Are we going to pretend that the animation of SheHulk's hair is convincing? Really good point about compression and stuff, but Her hair looks lifeless to me. (not a VFX artist)
@@matibrizu1207 Oh yes, I completely miss-read the text, you're right. My only complaint with the fact She-Hulk looks like a normal person with green skin and muscles. To me her situation is not AS bad as she is making it out to be, she is just.. green basically. Bruce had actually issues he had to overcome which took hell a long time to find a solution. I do not know what drama they're gonna bring in here, but She-Hulk looks as normal as any other besides green. I had not read the comics, not sure if this is the same so if anyone can educate me on She-Hulk from the comics, I'll be down.
I feel that her shades of green, while comic accurate, make her stand out more as a cgi character than she would otherwise (MCU's Hulk-green is especially muted by comparison). I do think it's easier to suspend the disbelief with Hulk for reasons mentioned (such as skin texture and hours of work done on him by now). I also think people saying this is ps2 cgi need to go boot a ps2 tho.
id say at WORST shes a ps3 character in an animated cutscene, which is far from a bad thing. i agree her skin tone is very saturated compared to man hulk that likens her to shrek unfortunately. i wish they'd be more willing to stretch her proportions-- like they said, hulk's face is a square-- than just making a green-toned tall lady even if she is comic accurate
I also think they should have amped up how muscular she is, she looks disproportionate with large hands and barely any muscle while on hulk although his hands are big they work because his arms are also muscular.
There is NOTHING controversial about the She-Hulk CGI being called bad. the controversy comes for idiot copium inhalers injecting political motives into those saying so. Also those saying "looks like PS2 graphics" don't LITERALLY mean "looks like PS2 graphics." It's called a HYPERBOLIC STATEMENT. Look it up.
All the She-Hulk CGI shots looks great when they are frozen yes... when in motion it tickles the uncanny valley way too much. It's genuinely hard to watch for me specially next to Hulk's expressions and the movement of the character overall that even with it's flaws looks absolutely perfect in comparison.
true the motion is almost jerky however I think the thing that makes it fall into the uncanny valley is we are used to seeing hulk who is kind of a scaled up body builder, where she hulk (I hope they do her well but idk the trailer hasn't hooked me) is still the same body type just kinda taller but has strength similar to the hulk and is supposed to be more acrobatic in a way. pretty much saying where hulk kinda seems normalish to us from years of seeing him and the way he is designed(not just a taller banner) shehulk might just be the lack of change (other than green)
@@adamwellman7865 there's also the whole thing about the cg being pointless. what exactly can you with the cg that you can't just do with giving the actor makeup, and enlarging her in editing. it cost a fraction of the budget, and not be as jarring, or uncanny. it's like the only reason they made her cg was just to flex about how big the budget is.
You guys should look at the VFX of _Everything Everywhere All at Once._ Apparently, all of the VFX was done by a small team of 5 people, some of which were done by the directors themselves. They even built a very low-budget version of Mandalorian's virtual set for the universe-jumping scenes.
Big agree. They should look at the stunts too, the fight choreo is amazing. I bet the guys over at Martial Club (who did the stunts) would be willing to come on the show, they have their own YT channel!
She hulk doesn't look that great that it deserves this much defending. People aren't criticising the work and effort that goes into creating a TV show budgeted CGI character, because a full CGI character for a TV show is tough. But even none Visual Effect Artists can see how wrong it looks, I don't see why they couldn't have just mixed and matched CGI shots with the actual actress rather than bogging themselves down with having to go full CGI. I like Practical effects with CGI elements to bolster a shot. Full CGI rarely and VERY rarely works for me to get immersed.
@@scorched2738 Camera tricks, been done plenty of times on plenty of media throughout the century. Just opting for CGI is not creative, just Disney throwing money at the problem.
For me, (She Hulk) what is triggering my mind is that her eyes have no micro movements. She is just deadpan robo-staring into things. That starts the uncanny rollercoaster. Especially the dinner date and the phone swipe scene.
Well stated. There is a close up shot that goes into the right side of her face that is downright beautiful, but many of the scenes are lacking those finer details. Disney needed to allow the artists more time to finish her.
I feel like the color grading of she hulk is uncanny at times. She looks darker and more contrasted then other characters at times. Maybe i'm wrong tho.
She hulks movement is just scuffed. If you freeze frame any of the shots that look bad, the cg is awesome. It's rubbery movement of the face, the fluidity of her body movement, and her hair bounces with every damn action she takes.
6:41 As a content creator I always tell people this. TH-cam compresses the hell outta videos with their janky bitrates. In order to bypass this the video would have to be uploaded in 4 to 8k. Which is what movie companies need to start doing so people can see trailers in their truest fidelity.
@The Bear lies. They uploaded the trailer in 1080p on TH-cam which should be a cardinal sin. They uploaded in 4K on Disney Plus afterwards. And hardly anyone watched because they had already watched it on TH-cam.
Sam: You don't need to tell people that cgi is bad. Also Sam; proceeds to his job of criticising good or bad cgi to the general public.🤡 Thanks for the likes.
I think more of the problem with she-hulk is in the actual design and in the choices they made about how to present her. Yes, the compression and funniness exaggerate it, but the color of green they went with, the exaggerated beauty, the hairstyle and length, etc. all kind of make her look like a sim and like they still wanted her to be pretty.
Because she's supposed to still look pretty. Why does everyone think She-Hulk is just supposed to be "Hulk but female," like becoming "hot" and confident wasn't a part of her character arc in the comics.
@@GoddoDoggo can you link some comics to where the arc is about her being hot and confident? I remember her confidence increases and she doesnt look like the hulk for sure but i dont remember her becoming hot and loving being hot the confidence is more the focal point. The trailer just highlights the hot part of it mostly.
It needs a little more light interacting with the skin and hair. It's currently as if her inner hair layer is made from the blackest Black absorbing every spectrum of light. Possibly again due to compression.
@@GoddoDoggo trying to make her pretty I’d holding back the character, so they should drop that. Little anti-sjw manlets will get triggered about u just like they do when she’s big in the comics. But they’ve never actually been true fans who cared about good character design and storytelling.
@@zohairjafar383 It's basically all of them, she get's "Homina-homina-hominaed" by at least one rando in a crowd like EVERY issue that involves a crowd. And she definitely capitalizes on that multiple times with multiple avengers and other Superheros. Basically crack open Marvel Unlimited and look at almost everything from after the original "Savage She-Hulk" on. Although "Sensational She-Hulk" may be too trying too hard to be Doom Patrol to be worth including.
I think the main issue with the She-Hulk trailer, besides the smoothing, is the green skin itself. It's a BIT too vibrant, and it's way too uniform! Real skin is splotchy and comes in tons of different shades. She has the same color all over! And I'm willing to bet the vibrancy was boosted by whoever put the trailer together, and the uniformity is a result of unfinished CGI. I'm sure it'll look great on release!
I think that's the issue and it's what they've discussed before. Skin isn't just 1 uniform colour or texture. Skin can be shiny in some spots, matte in others, dry, oily etc. We see none of that on her. It's too flawless. The Marvel movies are full of characters with all sorts of colour skin that don't stand out but for She Hulk it does.
It's just something abt her appearance just seems very off putting and makes her a bit more deepfake. And it also seems like Hulk looks more realistic than the main protagonist herself.
Personally, the hair is what's really off for me. I can accept that a mutated green giantess may have a different skin tone\texture from most people, but her hair looks like plastic in some of those shots. Or like she's used 1980s levels of hairspray. OTOH, hair is probably one of the last elements to get nailed down, so I think they can fix the VFX.
Im colorblind so it works for me lololol. Still dont want to see it and thats not trying to dunk like Sam was mentioning(which I agree with actually), just not my kinda movie personally.
Actually the first time I'm seeing the She Hulk footage, and I gotta say, I think it could look better too. For a few reasons; - Her skin is too saturated, even compared to Bruce. I think it should match his a bit closer maybe? - There's little to no subsurface scattering on the skin and hair. On that note... the lighting all together seems off. - The animations feel animated and too loose and not very realistic. - I also think her hair looks way to stiff and it being the shade of green it is, makes it "feel" wrong too. I realize there's a good chance some of these were choices made to keep her in line with the comics. However, I think it only served to make the effects look "worse".
Yeah, I have the very same points as on why I think it doesn't look good. It was weird how they kind of brushed off the criticism as nitpicking (or as if trashing the modelling, and animation job as a whole, and not the fine tuning that shows in the final product). The subsurface scattering and overall way the light looks on her is off imo, besides the lack of detail. The lack of detailing they brushed off as TH-cam compression fault, but I don't think that's the full picture, because when Disney released promotional pictures that looked better, comparing both, the detailing shown doesn't look like the kind that gets crunched off on TH-cam's compression (aka it looked more like unfinished shots). And it's weird how they didn't mention lighting at all since it's one of the things they talk the most when referring to good CG, specially CG creatures. When I was trying to figure out why it didn't look right to me, one of the impressions I got was that the shots were badly lit in general, and not just the virtual light (which is weird since I assume a show this heavy on CG is a lot more reliant on the VFX supervisor), with shots like the one with the sundress where everything looks very plain, without a distinguishable place where the light comes and therefore no big shadows reinforcing the details (which makes everything look more smooth and fake).
I would add the "stiff upper lip" into these points. That's what troubles me the most is that her mouth expressions are stiff and "wrong". Compared to Hulk and Thanos the Shehulk seems quite a bit less polished. Still great. Just less polished than the other great CGI characters we've seen from Marvel Studios.
6:29 "What is triggering their minds [...]?" Easy: Her facial animation is too smoth. You know perfectly well that this shot should've been stacked with "jittery" micro expressions, yet it was rather stiff and rubbery, too + the green/s is/are debatable = uncanney valley. Could've worked, didn't work. Missed by a few inches.
They're too busy trying to politicise the situation and insinuate those who don't like it are sexists, so of course they're gonna land on the side of making excuses for this shit, when they never do this for anything else.
@@spenser9908 Nah I think it's more that they're close with so many people in the industry that they lean toward defending it, rather than some sjw agenda like you seem to assume. I did think Sam was super defensive about it though, at least Wren points out and questions what it is that people are noticing
@@buffnipz Sam went straight off the deep end into telling people they aren't allowed to ... like... express how they feel about things. Dude needs to get a grip.
The main body double for Tatiana was a student of mine from the University of Toronto Mississauga. We chatted about how this was done and how they worked together, but not in detail due to time. You are mostly right about the fact that they filmed the same scene a minimum of twice, swapping actors. Kathryn had to mimic Tatiana down to the minutest details that only people like you folks might notice. They became very good friends, and got to "feel" how each other moves. She did get to be a character later in the series that wasn't Tatiana.
That's so cool that you got to meet Kathryn! She's amazing and incredibly underappreciated. I love all the interviews and panels where Tatiana praises her and talks about how much they collaborated together and about how much Kathryn brought to these characters that she was then able to use and play off of. They have such a great friendship!
Guys the problem with She-Hulk isn't that the effects are bad. There are two main problems I have with the visuals: 1) unlike Bruce her proportions are pretty normal, she's just tall. This leaves me feeling like she trips into the uncanny valley pretty often because they're never going to get her photo real, but nothing about her proportions reads as exaggerated enough to keep her from feeling like she's supposed to look photo real even when they're not going for it to begin with. 2) there are a number of shots in that trailer where the animation and/or how she interacts with other things in the scene isn't necessarily bad but does feel slightly unnatural. Though really those two problems I have with it come from one underlying issue: her design isn't very good. In terms of her proportions she just looks like a tall green woman who's kind of fit. She doesn't feel like a She-Hulk. In terms of proportions she's smaller than a lot of actual women bodybuilders out there. She doesn't feel like a character that's better rendered in CG than just getting a tall bodybuilder and engaging in some LotR style trickery to make her look even bigger and use CG when it's actually necessary. And part of the reason this is a problem is because Disney didn't have the balls to let the artists make her more muscular, even though they wanted to and it would have helped keep her more stylized so that not looking photo real wasn't a handicap anymore. The issue was never a case of people just wanting to trash things or "CGI bad," but non-artists kind of struggle to articulate that stuff because they don't know what they're looking at. They just know it feels off to them. And because of her design she frequently feels very off in that trailer. Hopefully it's better in the final episodes.
I think it's the camera work and other stylistic elements of how the shots were done. They made it look like a bland sitcom, rather than a superhero movie.
@@gonzalovittori661 Yeah, and I think they had her more buff in the early concepts and then reached a middle ground. But with She-Hulk, they went all the way to "Just make her conventionally sexy, damnit!"
Granted, I seen a lot comments about the CGI. Most likely some trolls and Marvel haters mixed in there, but there is a fair amount that were vocal about the CGI
I wouldn't say that the issue was "never" a case of people wanting to trash things...There is for sure a population of people that fall squarely into that description
From what I'm seeing the She-Hulk effects look decent enough- it's the movement that ruins it. The Hulk is still mocapped to an extent from a real actor, which lends to much more natural and fluid motion, meanwhile fully rendered and animated She-Hulk feels very video game-y. Her movement feels stiff, her pauses are too dramatic and overall it feels more like a blend of scenes than a big long natural moveset.
She-hulk isn't fully animated, She's mo-capped off the actor just like regular flavor hulk, and they do the mocap on-set at the same time as her performance. The Actor playing Nikki, Ginger Gonzaga, even posted photos of her on set wearing the mocap suit with the "Shulkie" head she's wearing on top so the other actors have the correct eyeline.
I agree with you about it being the movement. Even if it *is* mocapped, it doesn't look great. It looks stiff and weirdly smoothed. Mocap still isn't a silver bullet, unfortunately.
She hulk looks like a filter made on Instagram, where the tracking of the actual face is just a split second delayed. Like, as long as she’s still it’s okay. But yes the CC make a good point in the blurring with compression. Plus it’s probably not complete yet, so she’s only 3/4 baked? It’ll likely be better by the time the show releases.
The episode Bad Travelling from the most recent volume of Love, Death, and Robots is stunningly beautiful. It verges on photorealism while also having elements of stylization as you referenced in this video, with their characters all being modeled to have elements of caricatures.
I think the reason why the she hulk character doesn't feel totally real is the hair. It feels very stiff and locked into place. Seeing the other clips of the actress shows how lively hair can be and the she hulk character feels like it has action figure hair.
Look at her Hands in the Scene with the Glass...they look like very long Spiderfingers.. also in other shots her Hands are HUGE compared to her arms. Most of her Animations seem...unnatural and CG...
She hulk- I don't think it's just the compression, A lot of it is the animation and texturing. Like the model is pretty good, but some emotes are weird and her clothes are always smooth. It's more noticeable because because real people are around her a lot so she feels comped in
@@LordJagd Yeah you're right, I think the CC guys also have it right, this is technically the first time we have a fully CGI woman on screen that isn't "human colored" or human sized, yet is still human proportioned and has to act with other real people (I can't think of any others). It makes sense that they're figuring stuff out
Tbh I feel like it doesn't matter if it's technically very good, if lots of people say that a CGI effect looks bad then it has failed at its job and does look bad. People don't need a technical run down to justify why they do or don't like looking at something
The She-Hulk animation/facial animation looks off compared to the work they've done with rufffalo. Her expressions look very overexagerated and sometimes the animation of her body moving looks VERY unnatural. It sits in the uncanny valley which is why a lot of people are reacting negatively to it. Also we know Marvel can hit a full cg face to perfection, they've notably done it with thanos and hulk so for people to have that expectation isnt wild in the slightest. Its also possible the actress is overplaying her performance because of expectations. Something is off to the point that people notice and I think having a dismissive stance towards high expectation studios can be just as harmful of a stance as being over-critical.
The reason She-Hulk doesn’t look as good is because they have a lot less room for error. First, she needs to be attractive, so her face needs to be smoother and not as wrinkly as Banner’s, which adds less detail. Also, she has long, hair that needs to look perfect as well.
@@joshflo8736 she can be attractive with some wrinkles that show expression. These gross standards for “attractive” women are part of why it looks so bad.
I mean they have shown us and told us that they won’t actually criticize Marvel time and time again, especially when the creators are there, which begs the question: why continue watching? They criticized the audience rather than doing what they sell themselves as doing.
I haven’t seen the She Hulk trailer, but from what you guys have shown I think it is the movement of the character. The smoothness is “problematic” sure, but you guys explained that topic perfectly. However the animation/movements and some of the color/contrast seems to be possible “real” problem.
My gripe is that they could've just painted Ronda Rousey green and she would've made for a bigger, more muscular and more realistically green performance
The best CGI I’ve ever seen is the Love Death and Robots episode: Beyond the Aquila rift When I first watched the episode it was really hard to tell if it was animation or not until later in the episode with subtle tells (like hair) and other characters. But the main character is done so well it’s almost scary.
When I first saw the She Hulk trailer I had no problems with the CGI, but it was a few moments of her face falling into the uncanny valley which evoked a strong reaction so I remembered those moments the most out of all other shots in the trailer. Every time you showed the shot of her reacting to her phone I physically cringed and had to look away.
I have a problem with how bad it is for She Hulk. Is because marvel has all the money and SKILLL to make top tier CGI but they don't. Because they've gotten very lazy. I get Corridor is friends with the studios that work with Marvel. But if I'm getting paid multi millions my friends better not hesitate to tell me if I could do better.
@@InsertNameHereCO I don't know how much it's being lazy or how much they're being stretched thin. Disney is pushing a lot of stuff out very quickly to support their streaming service and it's not just the CG that's suffering.
@@chaos.corner I use lazy very loosely lol. But you get my point though right. The Boys has a budget of $11 million per episode($88 million total for the season) and has some pretty good CGI for that level. Doctor Strange 2 had a budget of $200 million and a lot of parts had some "meh" CGI(don't even get me started on the Gargantos fight🤢). Every marvel TV show has a budget of $25 million per episode...they shouldn't be making iffy looking CGI with those kinds of budgets.
@@InsertNameHereCO It's none of that. Doing a normal human face entirely with CGI is never going to look convincing. It'll always be uncanny. They should've just gone the body double route.
@@KhaosKontroller fully agree with you on that as well. But I'm personally can't let them of the hook. Because like we just seen in this video lol. Compare any of the faces in Love Death and Robots, they all will look better than She Hulk. That's probably with 5x less of a budget too.
jibaro is one of my favorite 3d animated short films ive ever seen. its like nothing ive ever seen and its just such an cool art style. i dont think the people are supposed to be made realistic at all and it makes it so much more interesting looking, its beautiful af
If you listen to how they introduce it, I guess tons of people were telling them "this looks perfectly realistic" and it threw them off and took a moment for them to realize it's clearly not intended to look perfectly realistic
My theory is that the VFX artists on Jibaro deliberately created an uncanny valley effect. Not just the animation, also the lighting. The scene where the Knight sleeps at night has a "realistic" flashlight type of lighting which doesn't make any sense "in-universe". It's so cool to see what can be accomplished if uncanney valley isn't accidental.
Yeah its mind blowing....dude in this video sounds like a hater. I don't think they were trying to make it look real, but the style is way and far ahead of most stuff I've seen
My problem with the She Hulk cg, is that the movements look almost...too fluid? That, and the skin is like, TOO green? Like, it almost feels like they ripped a character from a slightly more cartoony looking cgi movie, and tossed her into this real life world and backdrop. And she just doesn't fit in. Even Hulk himself has a more natural looking faded green. Where as She Hulk is just a straight up cartoony green. Might also be down to there not being a lot of variation in her skin tone. I know she's a bright green comic book character, but real skin tone isn't just one color. It's a whole bunch of colors. Let's take a lighter skin face for instance. Might have that general peachy skin tone, but then you might see a bit of red around the checks and nose, some almost grey/blue around the eyes. Then add in the way the sun shines slightly through the skin, adding brighter reds here and there and stuff. Meanwhile She Hulk just looks...green. like Kermit the Frog green. No taking into account the blood under her skin subtly changing it's hue or anything. She just looks like a fake cgi character. Even when they do a great job of making her feel real, it still feels off.
Yeah, agreed - for me it was probably more the slightly weird movement of the body (esp in the "superhuman" movement sections), like physics not quite working properly....? The earlier models of the He-Hulk (? is that the correct nomenclature? 😆) seem to behave similarly, with the newer ones seeming to have better physics simulation - maybe work on the new female version of the model could improve similarly over time as it's reiterated? And as you note, the level of opaqueness/saturation of the green skin also seemed to come and go between shots too, ouch. I don't know how much CGI resource is allocated to these types of shows, so perhaps various scenes end up having differing levels of time & staffing available, depending on where they fall within the show's season...?
Completely agree. It seems like she's moving in a diferent gravity than ours, her body and movement don't seem as heavy as they should be. And I completely disagree with the coment Wren made abou womens faces being smoother. We also have facial hair, wrinkles, expression lines, different shades of our skin tone... so instead of making her look like a smooth perfect Barbie they could have made her more human.
@@supermikitus Right? It's like poor Wren has never seen a woman's face up close :( But he is right that stubble and beards just add so much detail ... things you'll likely not end up seeing from just a meter or two away... however the shots in the trailer were very close to her face.
@@supermikitus But that's the point he made. Obv women don't have perfectly smooth faces, but men commonly have more and larger wrinkles, stubble, etc. In the Disney+ version you can clearly see much more detail on her face. The YT compression removed a lot of the detail finer detail from her face whereas on his face, the larger details were still present because large wrinkles and large areas of stubble aren't wiped out by compression. They didn't just make a Barbie, it's the crappy video compression from TH-cam.
Thank you, that’s what I said. And these “experts” couldn’t seem to point that out because they were too busy figuring out what people really mean when they said they hate the CGI 🤦🏼♀️
"The very pulse of the machine" and "Bad Traveling" are some good animation and cgi classics. Honestly I think LDR can have two episodes one for CGI reactions and one with Animators react. A nice 2 part series package. Also an indepth animation reaction for "Jibaro" and "The witness" stylized animation would be amazing.
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Also, for She-Hulk, what we're getting for a "show" is pretty incredible to think about. However, I think where the uncanny valley part comes in isn't in the textures or shaders, but rather in the animations of the face and body itself. The scene where she's in the office and she twists her torso, it looks like they just pivoted her whole torso rather than adjusting her shoulders (she doesn't lead with her shoulder, instead it just seems... flat as it twists, and unattached bio-mechanically to the head as it turns too.) The same goes for some of the facial expressions too... some of the facial movements are missing micro-expressions, or are just a little to mathematically smoothed, IMO. Again, though, for a series-show, going with a fully CG (mostly) human face is pretty ballsy and its possible that those were some early renders that will be fixed/finished when the show airs too.
There are plenty of microexpressions -- if you look at the Disney+ version of the trailer, for instance, in the POV shot of her swiping on Tinder, you can see very subtle lip movements before the big facial expression change.
Maybe would've looked better if they didn't 100% animate she-hulk then? Maybe go with the Hobbit approach where she's a separate plate using scale and distance to make her look bigger? Then again it's a disney show so they probably want to make it quick and relatively light on budget.
They have friends who work with marvel and have had many marvel animators on the show who I'm sure have worked on she hulk. They most likely don't want to bash on their friends work. Most likely a bias because an untrained eye can easily tell the CGI in she hulk is very poor
Out of all the LDR episodes Jibaro was the one I kept forgetting it was CGI - I even looked the episode up afterwards to double check. Such an incredible show, a true celebration of art
There are a few points where the focus is inconsistent. I remember a few of the horses are crisp renders and everything else is out of focus. Which means they probably overlayed a horse render on images. It's impressive, but I was taken out of it a few times. When surroundings were too stiff
I hadn't seen the trailer for She Hulk until I watched this video but there's already one thing I know I'd change with her render that would still make her show femininity. To me her skin is TOO green, especially in the face. It looks like a matte green paint on a CG character. The fix this, I would likely show the underlying yellows and purples and even some pinks in areas of skin that are thin. I'm talking not even hints though, just clues of color under the eyes, on the ears and on the neck and chest. Women's skin is usually thinner then men's especially in the face. Showing the underlying color where it would be present would really bump up the quality on her face in my opinion.
It doesn't really help that you're constantly seeing her swapping between large, green hulk and normal size. Bruce's human and hulk forms were different enough you could subconsciously see them as different characters. You've got a normal, nerdy looking guy and a hulk that is, well, hulked out. With She Hulk it's a difference of size and color, and they're swapping between her two forms every three seconds with no continuity. Throw in the bits about her hulk form's mannerisms not really matching the physical size and it just throws you for a loop. Then there's the fact that this is the 38th(?) entry in the MCU, and there's some real fatigue setting in with superhero movies. After a while folks start asking if you're making another superhero series, or if you're making a lawyer series that would be better off without the MCU as a backdrop.
as someone who works on VFX for TV, I'm going to say that most of these shots aren't complete or aren't in the show at all even. Many have been created just for the trailer as they continue to work on the show until it releases. The final shots will have way more work put into them in color grading, compositing, simulations, etc. It could still be too green when it releases, but the trailer isn't a great indicator of the actual shots as they're still almost 2 months away.
Jibaro was just jaw dropping for me, not just for the visual but also the body movements. As a dancer, seeing those moves in animation makes me want to see more of this in future works.
@@athilalthaf6222 no they didn’t use motion capture at all. This was explained in the Jibaro behind the scenes video. They used dancers for reference but it all done manually.
@@reaperofburgers It's definitely a hit or miss type of episode. For me, it looks stunning for the same reasons the corridor crew pointed out, but the facial animations as well as some of the movement didn't really hit the same way. But it is still a pretty good episode compared to the rest of the season.
As one of the VFX artists who worked on the leg shot, it’s quite an interesting story actually I have to talk about that one. Geoff Scott the VFX supervisor came up with this. We did one shot where her leg was in the left position, so it would be behind the body, then we did a second shot where we chopped off her leg and placed it carefully to where it could be crawled over as seen in the shot. Really crazy stuff, luckily she got the leg reattached a couple hours after! Now you know how it was done!
"You don't have to tell people it's bad, they'll make their mind up to it" Well the thing is that, replace the word "bad" with "good" and the sentence still works
My personal feeling on the one shot where she's looking back while walking is the green is just a tad too saturated compared to the other shots. It's like the original Hulk movie, the green is a bit too strong and so she seems off.
6:02 If I want to voice my opinion of something, I'm going to voice my opinion on it, I'm not going to stay quiet just because you think it's good. This is literally a show about *BAD CGI* you can't tell me not to talk about bad cgi
I really hope he sees all the criticism against him specifically. Hope it hits him hard and learns from his hypocrisy.... instead of doing the usual California thing of burying ones head in the sand until the problem goes away or you can point fingers somewhere else.
@@HunterSentinel There's no reason for Sam to care about a few Twitter girls complaining about their successful TH-cam channel(s). Meanwhile, you can go back to screaming into your pillow, doing absolutely nothing. Seethe.
@@patrickmahomes3616 there sure as hell is a reason, he’s part of a TH-cam channel that specifically deals with this exact topic and improving on the shitty CGI... If they’re incapable of seeing what’s wrong with it and why people dislike a job done then he shouldn’t be doing the Job he has. You can’t improve what you refuse to see. The reason people are ticked off at his take is the same reason you puny mind is incapable of understanding why people dislike the shows take on she-hulk. Hypocrisy. “mY OpINiON iS tHE onLY VaLiD OnE!”
about Orphan Black- I remember thinking when I watched the show that despite having not the biggest budget for VFX, they actually did pretty good job with the effects but I wouldn't be possible without great performance of the main actress. If I remember correctly, she got some awards for playing that many characters- and she deserves it. Awesome acting, good tv show.
The scenes of her playing one of her characters playing another one of her characters are brilliant. Such a precise control of personality that it really sells one playing the other.
Yeah, she got 1 Best Lead Actress Emmy (3 nominations in total), 2 Critic's Choice Awards, 5 Canadian Screen Awards and a Golden Globe nomination for her work on this show (and a bunch of other awards). She's incredible! And I believe the show had a budget of about 2 million per episode. It's amazing what they were able to accomplish with that!
And i was sad that she didn't get the Rebel One casting, she absolutely deserves high profile roles. And she gets She Hulked.. which is fine.. but such a waste for her.
Wren makes a great point about compression. I wasn't impressed by She Hulk's VFX, but I also consider that it's not the final product in optimal format. Everybody has a right to see what they see, so complaints are valid because they provide feedback on the process. But vitriol isn't justified.
On the topic of VFX mistakes in shots that were missed, there is in fact a scene from the first hellboy movie where hellboy has his final fight with kroenen, just before the giant cog crushes kroenen, hellboy looks like he does a T-pose due to a mistake in the rotoscope in one of the frames and returns back to normal in the next frame. Its pretty neat and weird if you catch it.
@@off_1ine Yea noticed that too after rewatching it a couple times, hence corrected it in my post. Though first time I saw it i genuinely thought it was a T-pose based on how fast it was haha.
I think it's tough to see Marvel put so much time and effort into something like Infinity Wars Thanos then turn around and (seemingly) phone in the work on She Hulk. That said, seeing the TH-cam / Disney Plus side by side comparison did help ease my concerns. I just want them to give as much love to Jennifer Walters as they do their other characters, cus she deserves it
The issue with She HULK CGI is that it doesn't hold quality to one standard. One shot can be awesome, and the other look like they had half the time to work on it, or the facial expression animation is weird. Overall, it's cool, but there are some issues which rip you out of the "cool CGI" immersion, and instantly drop into "wtf" state.
For she-hulk, the reason that it looks CG, is that some of the animation looks to be a bit too stylized to hit as being real. Sometimes you've got Pixar-esque curves and overly smooth movements that would otherwise have been more brusque, especially in the context of a she-hulk. Some of the facial expressions are missing small twitches that really sell those expressions as being real, which leans into the uncanny valley. It's not the rendering that's problematic, it's purely the animation, which, mind you, were it not in a pseudo-realistic context, would look absolutely fantastic. It just looks out of place in terms of everything being supposed to be photorealistic.
Honestly this nails it. The Facial expressions are janky, especially the Tindr one… The “turning around” also looks off as the hair moves as one block and there’s no tilting to her neck/head
for the entirely dedicated love, death and robots episode, I think you should review the "bad travelling" episode. Also you guys are so cool, keep it up!
Love, Death + Robots - Season 1 - Sonnie's Edge. How did they manage to generate such a sustained feeling of tension and a dark sense of foreboding with full CG characters? I often find myself losing the ability to maintain the suspension of disbelief with animation. You're channel is fantastic. Never miss a new episode.
Love death and robots episode. The three robots, sonnies Edge, the secret war, shape shifters, automated customer service, snow in the desert, all through the house, masons rat, night of the mini dead, bad traveling. Tho I wish I could see them all
I'm a roto/paint artist and I know exactly what they did for the leg shot. I had to do the exact same thing a couple of times in Moon Fall. What you do is that you clean frame the leg, you then hold it and you animate it by hand. In nuke I would use either a gridwarp or gridwarptracker. Afterward it's a matter of matching grades and recreating shadows. Full on recreation.
I don't know on the She-Hulk stuff, a lot of the visuals look good when you sporadically pick a spot to look at, but the overall motion still has that Iron Man in Civil War effect where I can just immediately tell it doesn't line up or have proper motion in sync with the face.
For all of LDR they were hyper fixated on how real it looks, and not the 1000 astounding things they did with CGI. And it does look very real, stunningly, the stylization is on purpose of course, however it’s definitely UE5 or something brand new. We never have seen graphics this “Real” looking up until very very recent times. So to knit pick on that is insane.
Well their point is that it's not real and they looked for the signs of it. It's not them trying to devalue it or criticize. It's just them spotting details that are telling of CGI. The imitation of camera focus is inconsistent. A few parts will have a rendered character in clear detail while everything is out of focus. Kind of similar to when movies green screen an actor in an environment. You can tell a rendered object is just overlayed on an already rendered image. I remember it happening with the horses quite a bit. I am curious what kind of render farm they had setup to make that short
For me, the modeling on She-Hulk is very impressive, the problem for me lies in when it's in motion. It just feels too... floaty, and yet stiff at the same time. It could be a function of budget, but even Avengers 1 Ruffalo Hulk looked great in motion, had a real sense of weight even when he was leaping hundreds of feet at a time.
Yeah was gonna say the same, the expressions and face close ups are really impressive but when we get some of the full body shots of movement seeming stiff (almost like a videogame cut scene), tho I gotta say that phone clip was terrifying, like the mouth went way to big and empty
True, but to be fair, in Ms. Marvel’s first trailers, the cgi also looks pretty bad, but the show massivle improved on it, and that’s what I’m expecting from She Hulk.
Yea Avengers 1 was way better. They are being way too apologetic for subpar work. I understand there is an unnecessary hate culture on the internet but the CGI for She-Hulk is not great. You can be a fan of Marvel and still criticize their work. I expected more from these guys than for them to be so dismissive of something that clearly needs significant improvement. Also, Marvel DOES NOT always knock it out of the park. That comment was ridiculous.
She-Hulk in design in essentially just a green woman. So the fact that everyone who saw the trailer could instantly tell they were looking at an animated character and not, in fact, a woman painted green, tells you the effects are not properly convincing.
Yes, but she hulk isn't painted green. She has green skin. Those are two very different things. I don't think it looks good but she shouldn't look painted green. Hulk doesn't look painted green, he just is green. Same thing.
@@benstanfill363 “she isn’t green, she has green skin” What the fuck lol No shit, what do you think the only other option is to take a roller brush and just slap some paint on her? My goodness
@@benstanfill363 Realizing it's fake from the first glance of her vs the more convincing Bruce Banner Hulk is like night and day you can't force your unconscious side of the brain to think it's real cuz it just won't what they can do though is to fool it into to thinking real is what they're seeing like the case in Jibaro, I'm not saying imitate Jibaro but you know there's got to be another way.
This video shows us that you can work at certain area of work, you can even appear on a highly popular youtube video, and still not be an expert (regardless if it says so in the video...)
Waiting for the day Wren doesn’t make a great point. We are living in a world where outrage media is very lucrative, yet Wren (and the wider crew) continue to be objective and fair, especially recognising the pressure digital artists are often under. I find it so refreshing.
The problem is not in the compression. The problem is in the stylization or rather, the lack of it. The motion capture and CGI quirkiness works for Hulk because he is obviously not human. Shehulk however is just a lady with color change, so every small imperfection triggers the uncanny valley.
The problem with She-Hulk is that the chracter is absolutely deep in the uncanny valley. You have to do her look nearly perfect für the real world or modify the whole look so that it fits her's. LDR episodes to talk about: - The Witness - Life Hutch - Snow in the Desert
The effects in SheHulk Trailer remind me a lot how Alita from Alita: Battle Angel looked like. From the smoothness, which the guys said might come from compression, but also in regards to animation / facial expressions and, kind of, the proportions? Hard to find the right words, but I feel like while Alita was meant to look like that, very much like a doll and comic character, it seems they aim for some kind of realism for SheHulk (like they do with the Hulk), yet it looks like Alita.
Feels like these people are fully terrified of losing any access to Disney and/or they (or friends) did some of this CGI - This is nowhere CLOSE to an honest take on the end product. Also, seems they fixate on the trailer and differences with a potential TH-cam upload - did they ever follow up on the actual show? It's atrocious.. the lip sync is off, the odd motion blur, uncanny valley galore, it's just so painful to watch. They seem to be purposefully spinning and avoiding an expert's take on the CGI versus the state of the art - which is exactly their charter if I'm not mistaken? No integrity here.
My theory is that people are still not used to the look of characters having actually green skin with subsurface scattering and not just being solid green. But something about the animation also looks kinda "floaty"
I think the She Hulk design itself is also part of the problem because she looks like a taller slighly muscular green women instead of a really bufff hulked out women
For me, a contributing factor was definitely she isn't as bulked up as Hulk is if she has more muscle it would definitely help in my opinion. The difference in mass between Banner and Hulk is crazy compared to the difference in She-Hulk.
Orphan Black was a decent show, especially the first few seasons, but Tatiana really carried it acting those incredibly different characters. It gets even more amazing when she does some scenes where she’s playing one of the characters pretending to be another one of the characters and you can totally buy it
The characters playing other characters is where her acting really shines because it’s not simply playing multiple characters but layering those performances. You can usually not just that it’s a performance and not the real character, but also which character is doing the performance before it’s revealed.
Exactly, it would have been a lot easier for a good actor to just act as say Character #2 in that type of scene, but her ability to pull off a distinct and believable performance playing Character #1 doing their best acting of Character #2 and still be able to see the extremely subtle personality traits of Character #1 made the show worth watching just for those scenes alone
Also, apparently Tatianas acting was so next level on that show that while filming, some of the film crew would occasionally forget that she already knew things that they told her while she was in a character and would accidentally repeat stuff to her when in she wasn’t
yes! you mean when you have 'Clone A' pretending to be ''Clone B' Tatiana isn't just 'playing Clone B', she's doing "clone A pretending to be Clone B" in slight manerisms, voice inflection, and movements...and its awesome.
Sam: “I don’t get why people have so many opinions about watching content.” Also Sam: “Let’s get back to giving opinions about content we are watching.” 🤣
You didn’t get the point at all did u? Saying something is shit is not giving ur opinion. It’s just shitting on something. That’s the problem. It’s not a fucking opinion. People need to have their own opinions instead of joining the bandwagon shitting on something contest
@@piyush2465 Nah the problem is a bunch of babies not accepting criticism and using bs turn around excuses of why it's not an opinion. It's always NEVER an opinion when something you like is criticized but it's an opinion when you criticize. It's ridiculous and pathetic and about time y'all stop with the bs crying excuses.
Marvel CGI sucks now. They don’t pay their VFX artists enough or give them enough time. More and more artists are speaking out against marvel because of this. They’re prioritizing quantity over quality. She-Hulk is just horrid. The face is so uncanny and the motion is stiff. There doesn’t appear to be pores or fine hairs. There aren’t micro movements giving it realism. It’s really her face that does it for me. It looks so stiff and rubbery. It’s really hard because we know what they’re capable of. Infinity War and End Game were amazing. But Phase 4 is just rushed and it’s flooding the market. And no this isn’t dunking. This is holding marvel accountable. They’re being lazy.
The Love Death + Robots episodes that I would recommend reacting to: S1 - Sonnie's Edge S1 - The Witness S2 - Snow in the Desert S2 - The Drowned Giant S3 - Bad Travelling S3 - Mason's Rats
Also "Beyond the Aquila Rift". It's incredibly solid but the twist at the end is amazingly executed both emotionally and visually. The part where the creature first enters the room and the lighting makes it look human for a second before the rest of its body comes into view is pure artistic genius.
Jibaro is the most unique animated short film I think I've ever seen. Nice to see Yun Ling's background paintings get the attention they deserve too. So good. I think the style in this one pushes it even further into the realm of a fable - which is what I see this story as being. I'd love to see more thoughts on this episode, but for other reactions I'd say. - night of the mini dead - bad travelling - Mason's rats - In vaulted halls entombed ( I think this would be good for ya'll to review since it's done entirely in UE5) cheers
Wtf was that episode? That jewellery loaded woman screams and all the men gets crazy and start attacking each other, and it just ends. This show was really trash. I've seen better episodic shows. Shin-chan comes to my mind.
@@mango-strawberry the woman is a siren and sirens lure men to their death with their screams. TLDR: She was love stricken by the deaf knight because no one has ever refused her. The knight saw she was covered in jewelry and gold and took it, outraged the waters gave have him sound and she killed him for betraying her
i think the "worst" shot in the She Hulk trailer was when she is scrolling on her phone, something about that looked super unnatural, be it the animation or super smooth face (probably the same compression), that left the biggest impression on me
Same, the toothless open mouth look with the smooth green skin just looked bad to me. I don't think it'd be as noticeable when the show is really out since it'd just be one scene but that was the worst shot in the trailer for me.
What makes it super unnatural, is the fact that you can't see her teeth when she gasps, and can barely even see the tongue either. Her mouth just opens up to a completely black portal, which makes it super creepy and off.
The foot replacement shot was roughhhhhhh once you slowed it down, and then I couldn't unsee it. At this point I have to think that show doesn't have cast shadows anywhere in the episodes.
My personal issue with the She-Hulk stuff is that there's very little texture or depth to Tatiana's CG skin - and when it's right there, contrasting with CGI Mark Ruffalo's incredibly detailed skin, she ends up looking a bit plastic/rubbery, not just because of compression but also through the simple time that's gone into Mark's own skin. Look at your own pictures, even where you say "women tend to be smoother in pop culture": Tatiana's not all that smooth. Give her some imperfection, open up some pores, give some slight sag or stiffness to a papule, just weather the flesh a bit. Everything else is fine, as far as I'm concerned. In Vaulted Halls, Snow in the Desert, and Good Hunting would be the LD+R episodes I'd want to see a breakdown of.
once again most of the people who saw this trailer watched it on youtube. of course her textures arent going to be on par, thats compression doing its thing to long format videos.
This kinda seems the most biased the boys have ever come across in this one. When your first explanation for a trailer getting roasted is "Internet edge lords just wanna dunk on Marvel," that really seems reductive and dismissive of valid criticism. I know they typically try to be positive (even when the effects shots are hot garbage), and I've personally thought they go way too soft on some bad CG in the past, but they'll typically still admit that the shots aren't the best. And when they shift the conversation to TH-cam compression, despite the fact that they typically review from TH-cam clips (unless I've misunderstood, but I don't think so), it definitely seems like carrying the water and shilling a bit. As for She-Hulk, yes, there are certain shots that look good as stills. Sure, some GTA V shots still look pretty darn good in stills too. But to me, she lacks weight. Her animations are too quick and over exaggerated, and that ends up making her look lighter than a real person. They typically don't have to worry about that with Ruffalo's Hulk, because his whole physique demands slow, weighty movements. That shot of her Tinder-swiping to me looks terrible, not because of the lack of micro-expressions or anything like most comments are saying, but because it's so over-emphasized. It feels like stage acting, where you exaggerate your movements and emotions to make sure the cheap seats can read them. No slight against the actress at all, but if I had a guess I'd assume that this was her first time in a heavy-mo-cap-dependent role and she over-emphasized her performance because she didn't want her character to get lost in translation (didn't they mention actors doing this in a previous episode? I'm sure they did). Her "weightlessness" also explains why a lot of comments say she looks like a video game. Many of the shots are reminiscent of "idle character" animations that devs will put in to make it so the character isn't just standing there. It doesn't feel like natural, human-motivated movement. And the hair is all over the place in a way that natural hair just...isn't. Really hate it that the discussion got sidetracked to "incels don't like it" and "TH-cam compression sucks". Those things may both be true (not getting into those discussions here), but regardless it doesn't automatically make the VFX better.
Yeah they are weirdly defensive..... it really crossed my mind if they were paid for this. I doubt it but it feels like they are being willfully blind to make it seem better to counteract whatever negativity its got.
@@truetrueevil1 My assumption is they either were paid directly or are being "paid" through connections. They are a VFX company that gets paid to make videos, possible Marvel has talked about contracting them. But also possible they aren't getting a dime directly but are making money from people in the Marvel space such as the stunt performers and VFC artists for these react shows (which are apparently bad now). Either way they clearly are biased as heck.
@@JounLord1 they just don't wanna cross anyone in the business in case they ever ask someone to guest/cameo. kissing the asses of big local VFX companies is good for their business, this was 100% shilling through and through.
Wren’s explanation on our expected detailing on the face region vs what we see is IMO the EXACT reason why people have issues. Also we kind of already have an expectation of what green skinned ladies might look like in the MCU in the form of Gamora and some of the skrull, and this doesn’t quite fit into that expectation of some it seems. Personally it’s the juxtaposition from non she hulk to she hulk that kind of gets me, the CG is close but not quite the same as her non she hulk form so it creates some dissonance
All women's faces have texture so to say that 'well women are just smoother' is frankly insulting. It's like someone's gone full cover photoshop on her to make her 'beautiful' because apparently that's important
Gamora- That’s gotta be part of it- she’s a real reference for smoother green skin with texture, so of course MCU fans will notice when it’s overly smooth.
@@Ailieorz I mean that statement “well women are just smoother” without qualifiers and context IS pretty bad. The context being that guys have things like stubble that can help sell detail more naturally and ladies who in real life don’t usually have pronounced stubble lack that extra “toughness” to break the smoothness of CG. As wren mentioned, they’ve had almost a decade to nail Mark Ruffalo hulk but that doesn’t necessarily mean it translates 100% to Tatiana Maslany she hulk . There are definitely some hints of goodness in some shots that should be acknowledged, especially the focus in on her eyes as she transforms, frankly that’s one of the better shots IMO but as always good to call out stuff that doesn’t seem right when you feel it.
@@Ailieorz three dudes thinking every woman has photoshop smooth face...and they working in that kind of job where you need to know that it's not that ... well damn ahaha
I think you can genuinely critique something out of passion. the just ‘don’t watch it’ mentality isn’t very fair. when so much money is pumped into something it should be top tier, especially when the first entry in the franchise has far more believable and detailed vfx. ppl care and want the best for the characters they love. it isn’t always hate.
Sam does this shit all the time, let him whinge about it and just skip past it. His opinion's are some of the most ridiculous, at least the other 2 give some insight onto why it looks a little wonky. Meanwhile Sam just says it's people hating for the sake of hating and nothing else.
I'm sorry, mate, but things like "the cgi looks like a PS2 cut scene" aren't examples of "critiquing out of passion", just like all the hate that trailer got. Wherever I looked any genuine criticism was just covered in tons of comments like those + of course all the shit brains that saw "woke propaganda". You'd have to really dig deep to see anything that isn't just dumb hate.
I'm sorry she hulk in like all the clips you guys showed looked like she had movement from gta 4. And yes my expectation is that marvel is on top. They have been notorious for giving up on cgi while doing shows lately.
I think the real contention with She Hulk is that the audience is used to seeing Gamora, a fully green female, and her character looks amazing. And that's due to intense special effect makeup, but it looks more realistic than a fully CGI character. In the comics She Hulk is supposed to be a normally proportioned, tall female who's green, so it makes sense that the audience was more expecting a practical effect with makeup as opposed to CGI.
To add my 5 cents to the She-Hulk discussion, I feel like another thing that might trigger some people is the fact that we've already had a green-skin lady in MCU who looks realistic (cause she's not CG). So my brain automatically compares Gamorra and She-Hulk and concludes that the latter looks less real = less good.
@@dubbingsync It's not just the height. There are a million subtle cues that can set off the little flag in our head, that says "this isn't real". Two characters could be the exact same height and proportions, yet still look "off" to us.
@@ReconXOverland Yeah, sexism is rampant in a lot of the criticism surrounding Marvel movies. Actresses get horrible levels of abuse thrown at them on social media too, and far too often we act like that's just the norm and there's nothing we can do about it. It's basically a modern version of "boys will be boys".
Calls people out for telling the world about CG they think is bad on a show where they tell the world about CG they is bad. Nothing hypocritical about that, nope.
For LDR, I would say: - lucky 13 - life hutch - snow in the desert But I think you should definitely make 2/3 vids where you cover each ep (or those that aren't traditionally 2d animated)
At 7:52 I think I know a detail that gets people to say this shot doesn’t look good. I learned this from an episode of your “animators react” episode when looking at the Last of Us. Our eyes move first when we go to look somewhere, but on She-Hulk, her head starts moving first, then her eyes start looking behind her. I think if they had her look right for a split second before turning her head it would help with some of the “wonkiness” in the scene.
I agree with this but when looking at 7:52, the difference is minute. Barely noticeable. I wouldn't say that's exactly the issue in this case but great catch!
Cannot wait for Love, death and robots episode, I highly recommend the following: •The witness • The secret war • Snow in the desert • Ice • Bad travelling • The very pulse of the machine I feel each episodes has such a varied art style, across each season I believe these styles are present but this is what I feel the very best of every art style across all 3 seasons, Love the videos guys please keep up the amazing work! ❤️
@@amal3408 of course they did witness I remember it now and only chose ice as it was a different art style to the rest, in that case I'd say Mason's rats
I think the biggest reason she-hulk looks weird to me is that the Hulk, like you said, doesn't look human. Whereas she-hulk look like a normal actress with a green tint after effect applied (granted expertly done). Also she is so perfect, no skin imperfection, no peach fuzz, meanwhile the hulk is gruff and has tons of minor details. It's so strange seeing her and the hulk standing next to each other, b/c they seem like completely different styles.
Also at certain times in the trailer she doesn’t look proportional. People want big and lean and she just looks tall and lanky in some scenes. So it’s not exactly the VFX but the overall style they are portraying her as. She has so many different styles in the comics to choose from so it’s disappointing to see hers thighs and arms so tiny.
I'm also concerned they went with the "sexy" Sensational She-Hulk character design, as opposed to some of the more modern, athletic versions that wouldn't have been as jarring next to Bruce.
Not to mention, she's wearing normal people clothes in the "worst" shots. No one knows what a Spider-Man suit looks like, but everyone knows what a pant-suit blazer looks like.
All of which is moot because I don't have Disney+. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Good job!
Well yes that’s the point of She-Hulk
I think your problem (with the Hulk being an inhuman monster, while She-Hulk is essentially just an attractive woman with green skin) goes all the way back to the original design of the characters themselves, though. And is not that related to the VFX.
I suggest you guys take a look at Prehistoric Planet by David Attenborough - possibly the most realistic looking dinosaurs filmed through the perspective of a documentary. Just gorgeous
Where can I watch it for free?
@@ChineduOpara I don't think you can, its only on apple tv
@@ChineduOpara hurawatch
Dude, did you just copy paste my post from their previous video? Wow. Anyways, I don't care. Carry on as long as it gets done.
Holy crap, I was going to suggest that. I watched the first two episodes a couple days ago and was honestly blown away by how compelling the CG was.
No mention of how Jibaro avoided clipping with all that jewelry and armor? It was an amazing technical accomplishment
Yeaa
Idky they were i got a bit vibe that they were being kinda salty when they were reviewing that and i was most excited about their review of that only.
Lol I thought they will appreciate it like helll
@@VishDumb How was they salty? i think they really like the work
Jibaro was really beautiful and most importantly heavily stylized. I agree they did seem salty.
Yeah and still ended up being the worst episode
It should have had its own episode. But seriously the behind the scenes with the director is far more informative than this video.
The problem with She-Hulk at least for me that her movements are too smooth for a human, she moves with a smooth 60fps while everyone else is just around 30-45fps making her look out of place. All the fuss about the trailer quality is that, this is a trailer, finely picked scenes that Marvel chose to show the world what the series is capable of, so even if some of those finely picked scenes are flawed, what guarantee that even more scenes are just as if not more flaw than those trailer scenes.
EXACTLY I WAS TRYING TO FIND THE WORDS
Exactly. That’s my feeling. Like if this is your finely curated clips from the show and they turn me off this much I can’t imagine the show and the level of uncanniness.
That one guy cant tell the she hulk is cgi jesus fucking christ there is no way these idiots are actual artists in any was shape of form LMAO
That is a really good observation, because her animation sometimes feels too smooth and perfect like a machine rather than a person, her facial expressions lack human qualities in the sense of not being perfect, the 3D models themselves are perfectly fine from a detail standpoint, but the animation is what really is letting the hard work of the 3D artists down.
That’s literally how all CGI is done. But it’s more off putting with human faces because the uncalled valley will always shine through. Plus, it’s Tatiana Maslaney doing mo-cap. Don’t think they really needed to animate the walking.
7:51 one thing that stands out is she doesn't blink. it's actually a rule in animation to make characters blink when they turn their heads because most people do that irl.
Absolutely
Blinks and (some word I forget for small involuntary eyelid and eye movements that people do) really help sell "this is a human."
EDIT: saccades
Love, Death and Robots Volume 1: "Beyond the aquila rift" has some absolutely bonkers facial animation. Very photo realistic imo. They managed to capture the subtle tics of the facial muscles near perfectly.
And Volume 2's: Snow In The Desert
All episodes
Completely agree!
Agree
Yeah, but at the end of the day Love, Death and Robots is an animation show. And while they occasionally incorporate elements of photo realism, it's animation and should be judged as such.
I didn't see the She-hulk trailer and had no priors on whatever controversy it drummed up. But the thing I IMMEDIATELY noticed in that one shot of her looking over her shoulder is that her clothes look so fake. Her suit and shirt look like they are made of rubber, and they don't move realistically as she turns which gives such a bizarre look. I don't think the character looks that bad actually.
I think it's more the fact that sometimes her skin colour is too saturated. IMO the ebst thing they did to Hulk was make him a bit more olive green, take out a little saturation, that made him instantly look 10x better. It just makes her look like a toy made our of rubber and plastic. It makes the shine look fake. The Ruffalo Hulk doesn't have that anymore, he is much more yellowish in his complexion. I think the best looking shots are the one where she is in the restaurant lighting because they randomly took out a lot of the green, looks much better.
@@brabhamF1 That specific shot is more of an animation issue, her swivels her head unnaturally while her eyes move a little oddly. It's weird that they picked this shot for the trailer.
Stupid feminist anti men story is even worst than shitty CGI. Why? Look at Critical Drinker video about this.
I would bet that if that shot is in the show, and wasn't just made for the trailer, the clothes will be simulated. Got to remember that for trailers they are showing you parts of the show months in advance. Specifically the VFX which are some of the most time intensive things. They are cutting whatever corners they can to get it out for the trailer and have it presentable. The final product will probably have simulated clothes and more polished animation.
@@sun_beams You're correct but honestly I've never understood that business practice. Of course you need to get the name out there and start generating hype, but if you release it TOO soon you run the risk of massive fan backlash (which is exactly what happened). In the days of early CG making that mistake was understandable but how executives, particularly at a company like Disney and Marvel Studios who have been at the forefront of VFX for the last decade still push out an unfinished trailer and don't know it's going to do more harm than good is beyond me.
Are we going to pretend that the animation of SheHulk's hair is convincing? Really good point about compression and stuff, but Her hair looks lifeless to me. (not a VFX artist)
I did notice the hair was weird. Kinda felt like a wig. I think too much of it was moving in sync.
You said the hair is convincing then proceed to say the hair is NOT convincing
@@captainflowers748 it’s called being dumb trust they have no idea what they are talking bout 😒😒
@@captainflowers748 No they didn't...
@@matibrizu1207 Oh yes, I completely miss-read the text, you're right.
My only complaint with the fact She-Hulk looks like a normal person with green skin and muscles. To me her situation is not AS bad as she is making it out to be, she is just.. green basically. Bruce had actually issues he had to overcome which took hell a long time to find a solution. I do not know what drama they're gonna bring in here, but She-Hulk looks as normal as any other besides green.
I had not read the comics, not sure if this is the same so if anyone can educate me on She-Hulk from the comics, I'll be down.
I feel that her shades of green, while comic accurate, make her stand out more as a cgi character than she would otherwise (MCU's Hulk-green is especially muted by comparison). I do think it's easier to suspend the disbelief with Hulk for reasons mentioned (such as skin texture and hours of work done on him by now). I also think people saying this is ps2 cgi need to go boot a ps2 tho.
id say at WORST shes a ps3 character in an animated cutscene, which is far from a bad thing. i agree her skin tone is very saturated compared to man hulk that likens her to shrek unfortunately. i wish they'd be more willing to stretch her proportions-- like they said, hulk's face is a square-- than just making a green-toned tall lady even if she is comic accurate
Yea they exaggerate to make a point lol
I also think they should have amped up how muscular she is, she looks disproportionate with large hands and barely any muscle while on hulk although his hands are big they work because his arms are also muscular.
There is NOTHING controversial about the She-Hulk CGI being called bad. the controversy comes for idiot copium inhalers injecting political motives into those saying so.
Also those saying "looks like PS2 graphics" don't LITERALLY mean "looks like PS2 graphics." It's called a HYPERBOLIC STATEMENT. Look it up.
tbf its more like ps4 gta 5 cutscene cgi
All the She-Hulk CGI shots looks great when they are frozen yes... when in motion it tickles the uncanny valley way too much. It's genuinely hard to watch for me specially next to Hulk's expressions and the movement of the character overall that even with it's flaws looks absolutely perfect in comparison.
true the motion is almost jerky however I think the thing that makes it fall into the uncanny valley is we are used to seeing hulk who is kind of a scaled up body builder, where she hulk (I hope they do her well but idk the trailer hasn't hooked me) is still the same body type just kinda taller but has strength similar to the hulk and is supposed to be more acrobatic in a way. pretty much saying where hulk kinda seems normalish to us from years of seeing him and the way he is designed(not just a taller banner) shehulk might just be the lack of change (other than green)
I feel that disney has not given the CGI artist enough time to prefect the effects.
@@adamwellman7865 yeah probably since trailer cgi is unfinished
@@adamwellman7865 there's also the whole thing about the cg being pointless. what exactly can you with the cg that you can't just do with giving the actor makeup, and enlarging her in editing. it cost a fraction of the budget, and not be as jarring, or uncanny. it's like the only reason they made her cg was just to flex about how big the budget is.
Yeah they did so much terrible animation
You guys should look at the VFX of _Everything Everywhere All at Once._ Apparently, all of the VFX was done by a small team of 5 people, some of which were done by the directors themselves. They even built a very low-budget version of Mandalorian's virtual set for the universe-jumping scenes.
Big agree. They should look at the stunts too, the fight choreo is amazing. I bet the guys over at Martial Club (who did the stunts) would be willing to come on the show, they have their own YT channel!
Yes please. It’s quickly becoming one of my favourite movies of all time.
@@lederp42 if you think that’s impressive, look at the stunt coordinators that worked on the film. Incredible talent.
@@lederp42 The VFX were done by six people without proper training, who learned most of it by watching YT tutorials. No cap.
She hulk doesn't look that great that it deserves this much defending. People aren't criticising the work and effort that goes into creating a TV show budgeted CGI character, because a full CGI character for a TV show is tough. But even none Visual Effect Artists can see how wrong it looks, I don't see why they couldn't have just mixed and matched CGI shots with the actual actress rather than bogging themselves down with having to go full CGI. I like Practical effects with CGI elements to bolster a shot. Full CGI rarely and VERY rarely works for me to get immersed.
how exactly would they practically make her 7 feet tall
@@scorched2738 Camera tricks, been done plenty of times on plenty of media throughout the century. Just opting for CGI is not creative, just Disney throwing money at the problem.
@@scorched2738 did you watch Lord of the rings? Or Honey I shrunk the kids? Cats looked better than this.
@@scorched2738 If they can't do it practically, and can't do it convincingly through CGI, then maybe they just shouldn't do it.
Finished the first episode and she looks preety damn neat. Again way to much controversy.
Smart Hulk also looks insane. You seem to be biased.
For me, (She Hulk) what is triggering my mind is that her eyes have no micro movements. She is just deadpan robo-staring into things. That starts the uncanny rollercoaster. Especially the dinner date and the phone swipe scene.
Well stated. There is a close up shot that goes into the right side of her face that is downright beautiful, but many of the scenes are lacking those finer details. Disney needed to allow the artists more time to finish her.
I feel like the color grading of she hulk is uncanny at times. She looks darker and more contrasted then other characters at times.
Maybe i'm wrong tho.
*The racist phone swipe scene.
I agree with you
The eyes need more movement
She hulks movement is just scuffed. If you freeze frame any of the shots that look bad, the cg is awesome. It's rubbery movement of the face, the fluidity of her body movement, and her hair bounces with every damn action she takes.
what do you want them to do they on a tv budget
@@papichulo-bh5vz Work around their own budget to not create awkward and permanently dated scenes.
Its literally the animation, nothing else
This! this is what I wa thinking!
@@papichulo-bh5vz how does cgi from 20yrs ago look better in hulk 2003? how does cgi from jurassic park look better?
6:41 As a content creator I always tell people this. TH-cam compresses the hell outta videos with their janky bitrates. In order to bypass this the video would have to be uploaded in 4 to 8k. Which is what movie companies need to start doing so people can see trailers in their truest fidelity.
Hey, it's Random Black Gamer!😀
Is it not in 4K? that's just amazes me.
Random black gamer wow what a trash name lmfao
@The Bear lies. They uploaded the trailer in 1080p on TH-cam which should be a cardinal sin. They uploaded in 4K on Disney Plus afterwards. And hardly anyone watched because they had already watched it on TH-cam.
I don't know why Disney didn't post 4k version of the trailer on TH-cam, but that obviously is a huge mistake on marketing perspective.
Sam: You don't need to tell people that cgi is bad.
Also Sam; proceeds to his job of criticising good or bad cgi to the general public.🤡
Thanks for the likes.
Yeah they had some absolute clown takes this episode
👀
@AbjectMass 715 👍
I believe he was speaking from a space of you either enjoy it or you don't 🤣
@@cautemoc4624 They were obviously trying to please marvel🤣
I think more of the problem with she-hulk is in the actual design and in the choices they made about how to present her. Yes, the compression and funniness exaggerate it, but the color of green they went with, the exaggerated beauty, the hairstyle and length, etc. all kind of make her look like a sim and like they still wanted her to be pretty.
Because she's supposed to still look pretty. Why does everyone think She-Hulk is just supposed to be "Hulk but female," like becoming "hot" and confident wasn't a part of her character arc in the comics.
@@GoddoDoggo can you link some comics to where the arc is about her being hot and confident? I remember her confidence increases and she doesnt look like the hulk for sure but i dont remember her becoming hot and loving being hot the confidence is more the focal point. The trailer just highlights the hot part of it mostly.
It needs a little more light interacting with the skin and hair. It's currently as if her inner hair layer is made from the blackest Black absorbing every spectrum of light. Possibly again due to compression.
@@GoddoDoggo trying to make her pretty I’d holding back the character, so they should drop that. Little anti-sjw manlets will get triggered about u just like they do when she’s big in the comics. But they’ve never actually been true fans who cared about good character design and storytelling.
@@zohairjafar383 It's basically all of them, she get's "Homina-homina-hominaed" by at least one rando in a crowd like EVERY issue that involves a crowd. And she definitely capitalizes on that multiple times with multiple avengers and other Superheros. Basically crack open Marvel Unlimited and look at almost everything from after the original "Savage She-Hulk" on. Although "Sensational She-Hulk" may be too trying too hard to be Doom Patrol to be worth including.
I think the main issue with the She-Hulk trailer, besides the smoothing, is the green skin itself. It's a BIT too vibrant, and it's way too uniform! Real skin is splotchy and comes in tons of different shades. She has the same color all over!
And I'm willing to bet the vibrancy was boosted by whoever put the trailer together, and the uniformity is a result of unfinished CGI. I'm sure it'll look great on release!
I think that's the issue and it's what they've discussed before. Skin isn't just 1 uniform colour or texture. Skin can be shiny in some spots, matte in others, dry, oily etc. We see none of that on her. It's too flawless. The Marvel movies are full of characters with all sorts of colour skin that don't stand out but for She Hulk it does.
It's just something abt her appearance just seems very off putting and makes her a bit more deepfake. And it also seems like Hulk looks more realistic than the main protagonist herself.
Personally, the hair is what's really off for me. I can accept that a mutated green giantess may have a different skin tone\texture from most people, but her hair looks like plastic in some of those shots. Or like she's used 1980s levels of hairspray. OTOH, hair is probably one of the last elements to get nailed down, so I think they can fix the VFX.
@@jasonblalock4429 you sound like a snowflake with that level of sensitivity.
Im colorblind so it works for me lololol. Still dont want to see it and thats not trying to dunk like Sam was mentioning(which I agree with actually), just not my kinda movie personally.
Actually the first time I'm seeing the She Hulk footage, and I gotta say, I think it could look better too. For a few reasons;
- Her skin is too saturated, even compared to Bruce. I think it should match his a bit closer maybe?
- There's little to no subsurface scattering on the skin and hair. On that note... the lighting all together seems off.
- The animations feel animated and too loose and not very realistic.
- I also think her hair looks way to stiff and it being the shade of green it is, makes it "feel" wrong too.
I realize there's a good chance some of these were choices made to keep her in line with the comics. However, I think it only served to make the effects look "worse".
Yeah, I have the very same points as on why I think it doesn't look good.
It was weird how they kind of brushed off the criticism as nitpicking (or as if trashing the modelling, and animation job as a whole, and not the fine tuning that shows in the final product).
The subsurface scattering and overall way the light looks on her is off imo, besides the lack of detail.
The lack of detailing they brushed off as TH-cam compression fault, but I don't think that's the full picture, because when Disney released promotional pictures that looked better, comparing both, the detailing shown doesn't look like the kind that gets crunched off on TH-cam's compression (aka it looked more like unfinished shots).
And it's weird how they didn't mention lighting at all since it's one of the things they talk the most when referring to good CG, specially CG creatures. When I was trying to figure out why it didn't look right to me, one of the impressions I got was that the shots were badly lit in general, and not just the virtual light (which is weird since I assume a show this heavy on CG is a lot more reliant on the VFX supervisor), with shots like the one with the sundress where everything looks very plain, without a distinguishable place where the light comes and therefore no big shadows reinforcing the details (which makes everything look more smooth and fake).
Even then Marvel does usually finish some things of last minute
I would add the "stiff upper lip" into these points. That's what troubles me the most is that her mouth expressions are stiff and "wrong". Compared to Hulk and Thanos the Shehulk seems quite a bit less polished.
Still great. Just less polished than the other great CGI characters we've seen from Marvel Studios.
I'm mad they messed up my favorite female superhero :(
Her movement seems completely stiff. In the comics she lounge around and strikes all kinds of poses, here It's like she's wearing a corset.
6:29 "What is triggering their minds [...]?"
Easy: Her facial animation is too smoth. You know perfectly well that this shot should've been stacked with "jittery" micro expressions, yet it was rather stiff and rubbery, too + the green/s is/are debatable = uncanney valley. Could've worked, didn't work. Missed by a few inches.
They're too busy trying to politicise the situation and insinuate those who don't like it are sexists, so of course they're gonna land on the side of making excuses for this shit, when they never do this for anything else.
@@spenser9908 Nah I think it's more that they're close with so many people in the industry that they lean toward defending it, rather than some sjw agenda like you seem to assume. I did think Sam was super defensive about it though, at least Wren points out and questions what it is that people are noticing
@@spenser9908 Try not to make everything needlessly political challenge (IMPOSSIBLE!!!)
@@chorals4856 Tell that to these three goons lol.
@@buffnipz Sam went straight off the deep end into telling people they aren't allowed to ... like... express how they feel about things. Dude needs to get a grip.
The main body double for Tatiana was a student of mine from the University of Toronto Mississauga. We chatted about how this was done and how they worked together, but not in detail due to time. You are mostly right about the fact that they filmed the same scene a minimum of twice, swapping actors. Kathryn had to mimic Tatiana down to the minutest details that only people like you folks might notice. They became very good friends, and got to "feel" how each other moves. She did get to be a character later in the series that wasn't Tatiana.
Hmmm
oh thats really cool they made her a character.
That's so cool that you got to meet Kathryn! She's amazing and incredibly underappreciated. I love all the interviews and panels where Tatiana praises her and talks about how much they collaborated together and about how much Kathryn brought to these characters that she was then able to use and play off of. They have such a great friendship!
Guys the problem with She-Hulk isn't that the effects are bad. There are two main problems I have with the visuals:
1) unlike Bruce her proportions are pretty normal, she's just tall. This leaves me feeling like she trips into the uncanny valley pretty often because they're never going to get her photo real, but nothing about her proportions reads as exaggerated enough to keep her from feeling like she's supposed to look photo real even when they're not going for it to begin with.
2) there are a number of shots in that trailer where the animation and/or how she interacts with other things in the scene isn't necessarily bad but does feel slightly unnatural.
Though really those two problems I have with it come from one underlying issue: her design isn't very good. In terms of her proportions she just looks like a tall green woman who's kind of fit. She doesn't feel like a She-Hulk. In terms of proportions she's smaller than a lot of actual women bodybuilders out there. She doesn't feel like a character that's better rendered in CG than just getting a tall bodybuilder and engaging in some LotR style trickery to make her look even bigger and use CG when it's actually necessary.
And part of the reason this is a problem is because Disney didn't have the balls to let the artists make her more muscular, even though they wanted to and it would have helped keep her more stylized so that not looking photo real wasn't a handicap anymore.
The issue was never a case of people just wanting to trash things or "CGI bad," but non-artists kind of struggle to articulate that stuff because they don't know what they're looking at. They just know it feels off to them. And because of her design she frequently feels very off in that trailer. Hopefully it's better in the final episodes.
Didn't the same happen with Luisa from Encanto? They almost didn't make her as buff?
I think it's the camera work and other stylistic elements of how the shots were done. They made it look like a bland sitcom, rather than a superhero movie.
@@gonzalovittori661 Yeah, and I think they had her more buff in the early concepts and then reached a middle ground. But with She-Hulk, they went all the way to "Just make her conventionally sexy, damnit!"
Granted, I seen a lot comments about the CGI. Most likely some trolls and Marvel haters mixed in there, but there is a fair amount that were vocal about the CGI
I wouldn't say that the issue was "never" a case of people wanting to trash things...There is for sure a population of people that fall squarely into that description
From what I'm seeing the She-Hulk effects look decent enough- it's the movement that ruins it. The Hulk is still mocapped to an extent from a real actor, which lends to much more natural and fluid motion, meanwhile fully rendered and animated She-Hulk feels very video game-y. Her movement feels stiff, her pauses are too dramatic and overall it feels more like a blend of scenes than a big long natural moveset.
She-hulk isn't fully animated, She's mo-capped off the actor just like regular flavor hulk, and they do the mocap on-set at the same time as her performance. The Actor playing Nikki, Ginger Gonzaga, even posted photos of her on set wearing the mocap suit with the "Shulkie" head she's wearing on top so the other actors have the correct eyeline.
I agree with you about it being the movement. Even if it *is* mocapped, it doesn't look great. It looks stiff and weirdly smoothed. Mocap still isn't a silver bullet, unfortunately.
I mean, you’re just literally wrong, she’s mocapped from the actress, not fully animated.
@@dannymccook
Then why does her movement look so stiff and artificial?
@@Churbas
Why does it still look awkward as a result?
She hulk looks like a filter made on Instagram, where the tracking of the actual face is just a split second delayed. Like, as long as she’s still it’s okay.
But yes the CC make a good point in the blurring with compression. Plus it’s probably not complete yet, so she’s only 3/4 baked? It’ll likely be better by the time the show releases.
She looks flawless in the first episode. There wasn't a single moment that took me out of it.
It probably is an Instagram filter lol
That one guy cant tell the she hulk is cgi jesus fucking christ there is no way these idiots are actual artists in any was shape of form LMAO
to be fair its a tv show. yell me one tv show with good cgi?
@@veryadultlike8371 morbius tv show
The episode Bad Travelling from the most recent volume of Love, Death, and Robots is stunningly beautiful. It verges on photorealism while also having elements of stylization as you referenced in this video, with their characters all being modeled to have elements of caricatures.
That’s my favorite episode
100%
Honestly yeah its one of my favorites
Top 3 episode for sure
Best episode from all seasons to me.
I think the reason why the she hulk character doesn't feel totally real is the hair. It feels very stiff and locked into place. Seeing the other clips of the actress shows how lively hair can be and the she hulk character feels like it has action figure hair.
The hair looks great to me. It's the animations that dont do it for me.
Look at her Hands in the Scene with the Glass...they look like very long Spiderfingers.. also in other shots her Hands are HUGE compared to her arms. Most of her Animations seem...unnatural and CG...
Really? I thought it was the fact she's running at 20 fps while everyone else is moving smoothly.
I think it's her robot expressions, and the black void inside of her mouth whenever she opens it, but that might partially be acting?
Hair and also texture/lighting could be a bit better too. But hair is a massive problem with her character model.
She hulk- I don't think it's just the compression, A lot of it is the animation and texturing. Like the model is pretty good, but some emotes are weird and her clothes are always smooth. It's more noticeable because because real people are around her a lot so she feels comped in
The emotes are literally coming from the actress's facial features and expressions. It's all her.
Yeah it's just uncanny, which is probably because they needed to get a ton of shots done so they tried to make a consistent look.
@@blofeld39 That's what I thought too, but still looks weird and choppy in some scenes. I think they may be doing some exaggeration in places
@@LordJagd Yeah you're right, I think the CC guys also have it right, this is technically the first time we have a fully CGI woman on screen that isn't "human colored" or human sized, yet is still human proportioned and has to act with other real people (I can't think of any others). It makes sense that they're figuring stuff out
Yes I agree. Sad corridor are throwing hate at viewers :/
Tbh I feel like it doesn't matter if it's technically very good, if lots of people say that a CGI effect looks bad then it has failed at its job and does look bad. People don't need a technical run down to justify why they do or don't like looking at something
Oh yeah sure, like there is 0% politics in the hating of She Hulk right? hahahahahahaha
The She-Hulk animation/facial animation looks off compared to the work they've done with rufffalo. Her expressions look very overexagerated and sometimes the animation of her body moving looks VERY unnatural. It sits in the uncanny valley which is why a lot of people are reacting negatively to it. Also we know Marvel can hit a full cg face to perfection, they've notably done it with thanos and hulk so for people to have that expectation isnt wild in the slightest. Its also possible the actress is overplaying her performance because of expectations. Something is off to the point that people notice and I think having a dismissive stance towards high expectation studios can be just as harmful of a stance as being over-critical.
The reason She-Hulk doesn’t look as good is because they have a lot less room for error. First, she needs to be attractive, so her face needs to be smoother and not as wrinkly as Banner’s, which adds less detail. Also, she has long, hair that needs to look perfect as well.
Yes! Perfectly said.
@@joshflo8736 she can be attractive with some wrinkles that show expression. These gross standards for “attractive” women are part of why it looks so bad.
tv budget
I mean they have shown us and told us that they won’t actually criticize Marvel time and time again, especially when the creators are there, which begs the question: why continue watching? They criticized the audience rather than doing what they sell themselves as doing.
I haven’t seen the She Hulk trailer, but from what you guys have shown I think it is the movement of the character. The smoothness is “problematic” sure, but you guys explained that topic perfectly. However the animation/movements and some of the color/contrast seems to be possible “real” problem.
My gripe is that they could've just painted Ronda Rousey green and she would've made for a bigger, more muscular and more realistically green performance
@@topogigio7031 there are no big women that are good actors that can carry a whole TV show
@@cjspyker Rousey is carrying the WWE’s tv show rn.
You nailed it! It’s almost like when you add a smooth keyframe effect to end like a motion blurred text or something but on every movement.
@@cjspyker Disney sacked the only one who could have done it.
Secret War from Love, Death and Robots Volume 1 gets my vote!
Isn't it dead-animal-bits-man himself?
That whole series is nuts and fantastic.
My favorite episode!
Yess!!
🚬🐜 good show my firend telled me to watch it and i did and it was a good show that my friemd telled me to watch
The best CGI I’ve ever seen is the Love Death and Robots episode: Beyond the Aquila rift
When I first watched the episode it was really hard to tell if it was animation or not until later in the episode with subtle tells (like hair) and other characters. But the main character is done so well it’s almost scary.
For me, Life Hutch was even more insane. It looked totally real to me from start to finish, even though its all CG (with the exception of MBJ's face).
@@horseheadproductions7038 it was incredible fr
When I first saw the She Hulk trailer I had no problems with the CGI, but it was a few moments of her face falling into the uncanny valley which evoked a strong reaction so I remembered those moments the most out of all other shots in the trailer. Every time you showed the shot of her reacting to her phone I physically cringed and had to look away.
I have a problem with how bad it is for She Hulk. Is because marvel has all the money and SKILLL to make top tier CGI but they don't. Because they've gotten very lazy. I get Corridor is friends with the studios that work with Marvel. But if I'm getting paid multi millions my friends better not hesitate to tell me if I could do better.
@@InsertNameHereCO I don't know how much it's being lazy or how much they're being stretched thin. Disney is pushing a lot of stuff out very quickly to support their streaming service and it's not just the CG that's suffering.
@@chaos.corner I use lazy very loosely lol. But you get my point though right. The Boys has a budget of $11 million per episode($88 million total for the season) and has some pretty good CGI for that level. Doctor Strange 2 had a budget of $200 million and a lot of parts had some "meh" CGI(don't even get me started on the Gargantos fight🤢). Every marvel TV show has a budget of $25 million per episode...they shouldn't be making iffy looking CGI with those kinds of budgets.
@@InsertNameHereCO It's none of that. Doing a normal human face entirely with CGI is never going to look convincing. It'll always be uncanny. They should've just gone the body double route.
@@KhaosKontroller fully agree with you on that as well. But I'm personally can't let them of the hook. Because like we just seen in this video lol. Compare any of the faces in Love Death and Robots, they all will look better than She Hulk. That's probably with 5x less of a budget too.
jibaro is one of my favorite 3d animated short films ive ever seen. its like nothing ive ever seen and its just such an cool art style. i dont think the people are supposed to be made realistic at all and it makes it so much more interesting looking, its beautiful af
If you listen to how they introduce it, I guess tons of people were telling them "this looks perfectly realistic" and it threw them off and took a moment for them to realize it's clearly not intended to look perfectly realistic
My theory is that the VFX artists on Jibaro deliberately created an uncanny valley effect. Not just the animation, also the lighting. The scene where the Knight sleeps at night has a "realistic" flashlight type of lighting which doesn't make any sense "in-universe". It's so cool to see what can be accomplished if uncanney valley isn't accidental.
Yeah its mind blowing....dude in this video sounds like a hater. I don't think they were trying to make it look real, but the style is way and far ahead of most stuff I've seen
@@basslightyeah yeah i 100% it was intentional, cant wait to see what else they make in the future
That one guy cant tell the she hulk is cgi jesus fucking christ there is no way these idiots are actual artists in any was shape of form LMAO
My problem with the She Hulk cg, is that the movements look almost...too fluid? That, and the skin is like, TOO green? Like, it almost feels like they ripped a character from a slightly more cartoony looking cgi movie, and tossed her into this real life world and backdrop. And she just doesn't fit in. Even Hulk himself has a more natural looking faded green. Where as She Hulk is just a straight up cartoony green.
Might also be down to there not being a lot of variation in her skin tone. I know she's a bright green comic book character, but real skin tone isn't just one color. It's a whole bunch of colors. Let's take a lighter skin face for instance. Might have that general peachy skin tone, but then you might see a bit of red around the checks and nose, some almost grey/blue around the eyes. Then add in the way the sun shines slightly through the skin, adding brighter reds here and there and stuff.
Meanwhile She Hulk just looks...green. like Kermit the Frog green. No taking into account the blood under her skin subtly changing it's hue or anything. She just looks like a fake cgi character. Even when they do a great job of making her feel real, it still feels off.
Yeah, agreed - for me it was probably more the slightly weird movement of the body (esp in the "superhuman" movement sections), like physics not quite working properly....? The earlier models of the He-Hulk (? is that the correct nomenclature? 😆) seem to behave similarly, with the newer ones seeming to have better physics simulation - maybe work on the new female version of the model could improve similarly over time as it's reiterated? And as you note, the level of opaqueness/saturation of the green skin also seemed to come and go between shots too, ouch.
I don't know how much CGI resource is allocated to these types of shows, so perhaps various scenes end up having differing levels of time & staffing available, depending on where they fall within the show's season...?
Completely agree. It seems like she's moving in a diferent gravity than ours, her body and movement don't seem as heavy as they should be. And I completely disagree with the coment Wren made abou womens faces being smoother. We also have facial hair, wrinkles, expression lines, different shades of our skin tone... so instead of making her look like a smooth perfect Barbie they could have made her more human.
@@supermikitus Right? It's like poor Wren has never seen a woman's face up close :(
But he is right that stubble and beards just add so much detail ... things you'll likely not end up seeing from just a meter or two away... however the shots in the trailer were very close to her face.
@@supermikitus But that's the point he made. Obv women don't have perfectly smooth faces, but men commonly have more and larger wrinkles, stubble, etc. In the Disney+ version you can clearly see much more detail on her face. The YT compression removed a lot of the detail finer detail from her face whereas on his face, the larger details were still present because large wrinkles and large areas of stubble aren't wiped out by compression. They didn't just make a Barbie, it's the crappy video compression from TH-cam.
Some of the issues with She-Hulk are the rough green screen too. That office shot looks like a bad Photoshop cut-out.
no its just utter dogshit completly
Thank you, that’s what I said. And these “experts” couldn’t seem to point that out because they were too busy figuring out what people really mean when they said they hate the CGI 🤦🏼♀️
@@seanhillery1231 It's not a green screen, so I think you might just be a moron.
"The very pulse of the machine" and "Bad Traveling" are some good animation and cgi classics. Honestly I think LDR can have two episodes one for CGI reactions and one with Animators react. A nice 2 part series package. Also an indepth animation reaction for "Jibaro" and "The witness" stylized animation would be amazing.
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Absolutely they should do both!
I think they already covered the witness before
It would make a lot of sense, the entire series of VFX so they could do three eps on it if they wanted to.
It’s the tone of green that stands out to me. Idk if it’s comic book accurate or not, but I know that Hulks tone fits better and looks more realistic
Also, for She-Hulk, what we're getting for a "show" is pretty incredible to think about.
However, I think where the uncanny valley part comes in isn't in the textures or shaders, but rather in the animations of the face and body itself.
The scene where she's in the office and she twists her torso, it looks like they just pivoted her whole torso rather than adjusting her shoulders (she doesn't lead with her shoulder, instead it just seems... flat as it twists, and unattached bio-mechanically to the head as it turns too.) The same goes for some of the facial expressions too... some of the facial movements are missing micro-expressions, or are just a little to mathematically smoothed, IMO.
Again, though, for a series-show, going with a fully CG (mostly) human face is pretty ballsy and its possible that those were some early renders that will be fixed/finished when the show airs too.
There are plenty of microexpressions -- if you look at the Disney+ version of the trailer, for instance, in the POV shot of her swiping on Tinder, you can see very subtle lip movements before the big facial expression change.
Maybe would've looked better if they didn't 100% animate she-hulk then? Maybe go with the Hobbit approach where she's a separate plate using scale and distance to make her look bigger? Then again it's a disney show so they probably want to make it quick and relatively light on budget.
Can you react to Julian Bam BEICHTE-B-LOW please they have a fantastic VFX
They have friends who work with marvel and have had many marvel animators on the show who I'm sure have worked on she hulk. They most likely don't want to bash on their friends work. Most likely a bias because an untrained eye can easily tell the CGI in she hulk is very poor
That’s what I think!
Out of all the LDR episodes Jibaro was the one I kept forgetting it was CGI - I even looked the episode up afterwards to double check. Such an incredible show, a true celebration of art
There are a few points where the focus is inconsistent. I remember a few of the horses are crisp renders and everything else is out of focus. Which means they probably overlayed a horse render on images. It's impressive, but I was taken out of it a few times. When surroundings were too stiff
I hadn't seen the trailer for She Hulk until I watched this video but there's already one thing I know I'd change with her render that would still make her show femininity. To me her skin is TOO green, especially in the face. It looks like a matte green paint on a CG character. The fix this, I would likely show the underlying yellows and purples and even some pinks in areas of skin that are thin. I'm talking not even hints though, just clues of color under the eyes, on the ears and on the neck and chest. Women's skin is usually thinner then men's especially in the face. Showing the underlying color where it would be present would really bump up the quality on her face in my opinion.
Yeah, which is weird because that is the exact way they fixed Hulk. Make him less pure green and more olive.
It doesn't really help that you're constantly seeing her swapping between large, green hulk and normal size. Bruce's human and hulk forms were different enough you could subconsciously see them as different characters. You've got a normal, nerdy looking guy and a hulk that is, well, hulked out. With She Hulk it's a difference of size and color, and they're swapping between her two forms every three seconds with no continuity. Throw in the bits about her hulk form's mannerisms not really matching the physical size and it just throws you for a loop.
Then there's the fact that this is the 38th(?) entry in the MCU, and there's some real fatigue setting in with superhero movies. After a while folks start asking if you're making another superhero series, or if you're making a lawyer series that would be better off without the MCU as a backdrop.
as someone who works on VFX for TV, I'm going to say that most of these shots aren't complete or aren't in the show at all even. Many have been created just for the trailer as they continue to work on the show until it releases. The final shots will have way more work put into them in color grading, compositing, simulations, etc. It could still be too green when it releases, but the trailer isn't a great indicator of the actual shots as they're still almost 2 months away.
Matte* lol
@@MisterFoxx
lol fixed. Thank you.
Jibaro was just jaw dropping for me, not just for the visual but also the body movements. As a dancer, seeing those moves in animation makes me want to see more of this in future works.
They used dancers for some motion capture or something of that sort.
@@athilalthaf6222 no they didn’t use motion capture at all. This was explained in the Jibaro behind the scenes video. They used dancers for reference but it all done manually.
@@artnull13 thanks for pointing it out. ❤️
I wanted to enjoy that episode so much, but I just couldn't 😔
@@reaperofburgers It's definitely a hit or miss type of episode. For me, it looks stunning for the same reasons the corridor crew pointed out, but the facial animations as well as some of the movement didn't really hit the same way. But it is still a pretty good episode compared to the rest of the season.
As one of the VFX artists who worked on the leg shot, it’s quite an interesting story actually I have to talk about that one. Geoff Scott the VFX supervisor came up with this. We did one shot where her leg was in the left position, so it would be behind the body, then we did a second shot where we chopped off her leg and placed it carefully to where it could be crawled over as seen in the shot. Really crazy stuff, luckily she got the leg reattached a couple hours after! Now you know how it was done!
"You don't have to tell people it's bad, they'll make their mind up to it"
Well the thing is that, replace the word "bad" with "good" and the sentence still works
"You don't have to tell everyone it's bad."
*literally has a youtube channel dedicated to telling people what's good and bad cgi*
My thoughts exactly..
Also, I’m sure he prefers the design of the current Sonic in the movies rather than the original trailer’s version.
Yeah they make opinons on cgi and they're vfx artists I'm sure we can't say the same thing about you
@@riadzeka6078 you don't need to be a chef to have an opinion on food
@@riadzeka6078 I don't have to be a mechanic to know when my car isn't driving right
Definitely Bad Traveling as an LDR episode to review. That short was spectacular not only in it’s storytelling but also in it’s visual language.
That was an awesome episode
Bad Traveleling is a masterpiece, I'm still shocked by the quality of style, CGI, animation & storytelling
One of my fav so far, they also achieved a good balance between the realistic and the stylized... such a cool episode!
My personal feeling on the one shot where she's looking back while walking is the green is just a tad too saturated compared to the other shots. It's like the original Hulk movie, the green is a bit too strong and so she seems off.
also look at her suit in this shot, it looks like it's taken out from the sims 4
6:02 If I want to voice my opinion of something, I'm going to voice my opinion on it, I'm not going to stay quiet just because you think it's good.
This is literally a show about *BAD CGI* you can't tell me not to talk about bad cgi
Just soyboy...
He literally has no self awareness
I really hope he sees all the criticism against him specifically. Hope it hits him hard and learns from his hypocrisy.... instead of doing the usual California thing of burying ones head in the sand until the problem goes away or you can point fingers somewhere else.
@@HunterSentinel There's no reason for Sam to care about a few Twitter girls complaining about their successful TH-cam channel(s). Meanwhile, you can go back to screaming into your pillow, doing absolutely nothing. Seethe.
@@patrickmahomes3616 there sure as hell is a reason, he’s part of a TH-cam channel that specifically deals with this exact topic and improving on the shitty CGI...
If they’re incapable of seeing what’s wrong with it and why people dislike a job done then he shouldn’t be doing the Job he has. You can’t improve what you refuse to see.
The reason people are ticked off at his take is the same reason you puny mind is incapable of understanding why people dislike the shows take on she-hulk. Hypocrisy. “mY OpINiON iS tHE onLY VaLiD OnE!”
about Orphan Black- I remember thinking when I watched the show that despite having not the biggest budget for VFX, they actually did pretty good job with the effects but I wouldn't be possible without great performance of the main actress. If I remember correctly, she got some awards for playing that many characters- and she deserves it. Awesome acting, good tv show.
The scenes of her playing one of her characters playing another one of her characters are brilliant. Such a precise control of personality that it really sells one playing the other.
Yeah, she got 1 Best Lead Actress Emmy (3 nominations in total), 2 Critic's Choice Awards, 5 Canadian Screen Awards and a Golden Globe nomination for her work on this show (and a bunch of other awards). She's incredible!
And I believe the show had a budget of about 2 million per episode. It's amazing what they were able to accomplish with that!
And i was sad that she didn't get the Rebel One casting, she absolutely deserves high profile roles. And she gets She Hulked.. which is fine.. but such a waste for her.
Tatiana being an incredible actress really made that show much better for sure. Can't wait for She Hulk.
Wren makes a great point about compression. I wasn't impressed by She Hulk's VFX, but I also consider that it's not the final product in optimal format. Everybody has a right to see what they see, so complaints are valid because they provide feedback on the process. But vitriol isn't justified.
On the topic of VFX mistakes in shots that were missed, there is in fact a scene from the first hellboy movie where hellboy has his final fight with kroenen, just before the giant cog crushes kroenen, hellboy looks like he does a T-pose due to a mistake in the rotoscope in one of the frames and returns back to normal in the next frame. Its pretty neat and weird if you catch it.
I have to go watch this again now, I don't know how I missed that!
Haha you're right it's visible at 2:24 in this clip watch?v=lGxeWy0YgiU&ab_channel=LeaderVic
he doesn't T pose, the footage behind the cog just jumps back to a frame where he was holding the cog over his head
@@off_1ine Yea noticed that too after rewatching it a couple times, hence corrected it in my post. Though first time I saw it i genuinely thought it was a T-pose based on how fast it was haha.
I think it's tough to see Marvel put so much time and effort into something like Infinity Wars Thanos then turn around and (seemingly) phone in the work on She Hulk. That said, seeing the TH-cam / Disney Plus side by side comparison did help ease my concerns. I just want them to give as much love to Jennifer Walters as they do their other characters, cus she deserves it
The issue with She HULK CGI is that it doesn't hold quality to one standard.
One shot can be awesome, and the other look like they had half the time to work on it, or the facial expression animation is weird.
Overall, it's cool, but there are some issues which rip you out of the "cool CGI" immersion, and instantly drop into "wtf" state.
Because it's unfinished
Because its a trailer, the shots used are 100% unfinished.
@@Omegeddon like first Sonic the hedgehog. ;)
@@ItsArcanum They are finished, and that's the problem.
@@FlyingBanana78 The problem with Sonic is the character design was just bad. The CHI was fine on a technical level
For she-hulk, the reason that it looks CG, is that some of the animation looks to be a bit too stylized to hit as being real.
Sometimes you've got Pixar-esque curves and overly smooth movements that would otherwise have been more brusque, especially in the context of a she-hulk.
Some of the facial expressions are missing small twitches that really sell those expressions as being real, which leans into the uncanny valley.
It's not the rendering that's problematic, it's purely the animation, which, mind you, were it not in a pseudo-realistic context, would look absolutely fantastic.
It just looks out of place in terms of everything being supposed to be photorealistic.
Honestly this nails it. The Facial expressions are janky, especially the Tindr one… The “turning around” also looks off as the hair moves as one block and there’s no tilting to her neck/head
Its the eyes that do it also. Shes often appearing like her eyes arent both looking at the same thing, or focusing on anything.
for the entirely dedicated love, death and robots episode, I think you should review the "bad travelling" episode. Also you guys are so cool, keep it up!
The art design of Jibaro was absolutely terrifying to me
Seriously, it was.
You mean in a good way?
The problem I have with She-Hulk is just that she doesn’t move like a normal person. Sometimes looks a little too stiff or bouncy
Yeah that was my thought. It's not the look that's giving it away. It's the cartoony movements
I feel like someone said: It's a woman so you can't make her too unattractive
@@anabeldorothea212 that is the reasoning that has been mentioned as to why she isn't more buff like some version of Jessica in the comics.
@@alwaysxnever they also want to be faith to how she looks in most comic appearances
Love, Death + Robots - Season 1 - Sonnie's Edge. How did they manage to generate such a sustained feeling of tension and a dark sense of foreboding with full CG characters? I often find myself losing the ability to maintain the suspension of disbelief with animation. You're channel is fantastic. Never miss a new episode.
AGREE SUCH A GOOD EPISODE!
And Beyond the Aquila Rift. How did they manage to mess up everybody who saw it
This has been my favorite ep through the show and I would love to see a breakdown of it!!
Great episode
Love death and robots episode. The three robots, sonnies Edge, the secret war, shape shifters, automated customer service, snow in the desert, all through the house, masons rat, night of the mini dead, bad traveling. Tho I wish I could see them all
this aged like milk. She hulk was insufferably bad.
I'm a roto/paint artist and I know exactly what they did for the leg shot. I had to do the exact same thing a couple of times in Moon Fall. What you do is that you clean frame the leg, you then hold it and you animate it by hand. In nuke I would use either a gridwarp or gridwarptracker. Afterward it's a matter of matching grades and recreating shadows. Full on recreation.
I don't know on the She-Hulk stuff, a lot of the visuals look good when you sporadically pick a spot to look at, but the overall motion still has that Iron Man in Civil War effect where I can just immediately tell it doesn't line up or have proper motion in sync with the face.
I agree- very “call of the Wild” Dog reminiscent. Actually looks very good paused, just a bit weak in motion.
"If you don't like the CGI, keep it to yourselves", one a show that consists of talking about how GOOD and BAD some CGI is.
yeah, that was an L take
@@Sp33dGames I've noticed that Sam is responsible for many of the L takes that cone out of Corridor
Well, they're usually praising or critiquing the vfx, because they're vfx artists. People online just tend to complain about it
@@sergeantbear just because you complain online doesnt mean you cant be vfx artist at the same time too ;)
@@sergeantbear And just because you aren't a vfx artist doesn't mean you can't share your opinion on something that you like or dislike.
For all of LDR they were hyper fixated on how real it looks, and not the 1000 astounding things they did with CGI. And it does look very real, stunningly, the stylization is on purpose of course, however it’s definitely UE5 or something brand new. We never have seen graphics this “Real” looking up until very very recent times. So to knit pick on that is insane.
Well their point is that it's not real and they looked for the signs of it. It's not them trying to devalue it or criticize. It's just them spotting details that are telling of CGI. The imitation of camera focus is inconsistent. A few parts will have a rendered character in clear detail while everything is out of focus. Kind of similar to when movies green screen an actor in an environment. You can tell a rendered object is just overlayed on an already rendered image. I remember it happening with the horses quite a bit. I am curious what kind of render farm they had setup to make that short
For me, the modeling on She-Hulk is very impressive, the problem for me lies in when it's in motion. It just feels too... floaty, and yet stiff at the same time. It could be a function of budget, but even Avengers 1 Ruffalo Hulk looked great in motion, had a real sense of weight even when he was leaping hundreds of feet at a time.
Yeah was gonna say the same, the expressions and face close ups are really impressive but when we get some of the full body shots of movement seeming stiff (almost like a videogame cut scene), tho I gotta say that phone clip was terrifying, like the mouth went way to big and empty
True, but to be fair, in Ms. Marvel’s first trailers, the cgi also looks pretty bad, but the show massivle improved on it, and that’s what I’m expecting from She Hulk.
Yea Avengers 1 was way better. They are being way too apologetic for subpar work. I understand there is an unnecessary hate culture on the internet but the CGI for She-Hulk is not great. You can be a fan of Marvel and still criticize their work. I expected more from these guys than for them to be so dismissive of something that clearly needs significant improvement. Also, Marvel DOES NOT always knock it out of the park. That comment was ridiculous.
Mocap and facial rigging VS Full CGI.
You guys should invite the director of Jibaro on the show.
And, Please react to the VFX of Darren Aronofsky's Noah and The Fountain
She-Hulk in design in essentially just a green woman. So the fact that everyone who saw the trailer could instantly tell they were looking at an animated character and not, in fact, a woman painted green, tells you the effects are not properly convincing.
Yes, but she hulk isn't painted green. She has green skin. Those are two very different things. I don't think it looks good but she shouldn't look painted green. Hulk doesn't look painted green, he just is green. Same thing.
@@benstanfill363 Why not? Zoe is painted green when playing Gamora and she has green skin, it also looks really good because it's not a CGI character.
@@benstanfill363 Yeah, but Gamora is just a girl painted green and she looks fine despite supposed to just being green like the hulk.
@@benstanfill363 “she isn’t green, she has green skin”
What the fuck lol No shit, what do you think the only other option is to take a roller brush and just slap some paint on her? My goodness
@@benstanfill363 Realizing it's fake from the first glance of her vs the more convincing Bruce Banner Hulk is like night and day you can't force your unconscious side of the brain to think it's real cuz it just won't what they can do though is to fool it into to thinking real is what they're seeing like the case in Jibaro, I'm not saying imitate Jibaro but you know there's got to be another way.
This video shows us that you can work at certain area of work, you can even appear on a highly popular youtube video, and still not be an expert (regardless if it says so in the video...)
Wren makes a great point about compression
then why do the people in Avatar's trailer look so much better?
Waiting for the day Wren doesn’t make a great point. We are living in a world where outrage media is very lucrative, yet Wren (and the wider crew) continue to be objective and fair, especially recognising the pressure digital artists are often under. I find it so refreshing.
The problem is not in the compression. The problem is in the stylization or rather, the lack of it.
The motion capture and CGI quirkiness works for Hulk because he is obviously not human. Shehulk however is just a lady with color change, so every small imperfection triggers the uncanny valley.
Can you react to Julian Bam BEICHTE-B-LOW please they have a fantastic VFX
@@tinchairs6384 because we expect them to be smooth.
The problem with She-Hulk is that the chracter is absolutely deep in the uncanny valley. You have to do her look nearly perfect für the real world or modify the whole look so that it fits her's.
LDR episodes to talk about:
- The Witness
- Life Hutch
- Snow in the Desert
Or find an actor who’s tall and athletic and paint her green.
The effects in SheHulk Trailer remind me a lot how Alita from Alita: Battle Angel looked like. From the smoothness, which the guys said might come from compression, but also in regards to animation / facial expressions and, kind of, the proportions? Hard to find the right words, but I feel like while Alita was meant to look like that, very much like a doll and comic character, it seems they aim for some kind of realism for SheHulk (like they do with the Hulk), yet it looks like Alita.
Feels like these people are fully terrified of losing any access to Disney and/or they (or friends) did some of this CGI - This is nowhere CLOSE to an honest take on the end product.
Also, seems they fixate on the trailer and differences with a potential TH-cam upload - did they ever follow up on the actual show? It's atrocious.. the lip sync is off, the odd motion blur, uncanny valley galore, it's just so painful to watch.
They seem to be purposefully spinning and avoiding an expert's take on the CGI versus the state of the art - which is exactly their charter if I'm not mistaken?
No integrity here.
My theory is that people are still not used to the look of characters having actually green skin with subsurface scattering and not just being solid green. But something about the animation also looks kinda "floaty"
Ps 2 graphics lol
I don't think so because Hulk looks fine even in the She Hulk trailer. She hulk's skin looks flat but her facial expressions seem lacking.
I think the She Hulk design itself is also part of the problem because she looks like a taller slighly muscular green women instead of a really bufff hulked out women
For me, a contributing factor was definitely she isn't as bulked up as Hulk is if she has more muscle it would definitely help in my opinion. The difference in mass between Banner and Hulk is crazy compared to the difference in She-Hulk.
I think floaty is a great word. Sometimes when she moves, her hair bounces like she's in low gravity. It's weird.
Orphan Black was a decent show, especially the first few seasons, but Tatiana really carried it acting those incredibly different characters. It gets even more amazing when she does some scenes where she’s playing one of the characters pretending to be another one of the characters and you can totally buy it
The characters playing other characters is where her acting really shines because it’s not simply playing multiple characters but layering those performances. You can usually not just that it’s a performance and not the real character, but also which character is doing the performance before it’s revealed.
Exactly, it would have been a lot easier for a good actor to just act as say Character #2 in that type of scene, but her ability to pull off a distinct and believable performance playing Character #1 doing their best acting of Character #2 and still be able to see the extremely subtle personality traits of Character #1 made the show worth watching just for those scenes alone
Also, apparently Tatianas acting was so next level on that show that while filming, some of the film crew would occasionally forget that she already knew things that they told her while she was in a character and would accidentally repeat stuff to her when in she wasn’t
yes! you mean when you have 'Clone A' pretending to be ''Clone B' Tatiana isn't just 'playing Clone B', she's doing "clone A pretending to be Clone B" in slight manerisms, voice inflection, and movements...and its awesome.
EVERY season of that show is great. If you stopped watching, you're missing out, I promise you. There's only five seasons.
Sam: “I don’t get why people have so many opinions about watching content.”
Also Sam: “Let’s get back to giving opinions about content we are watching.”
🤣
Exactly, as if only they have the divine right to comment of whether they like something or not
You didn’t get the point at all did u? Saying something is shit is not giving ur opinion. It’s just shitting on something. That’s the problem. It’s not a fucking opinion. People need to have their own opinions instead of joining the bandwagon shitting on something contest
God ur slow
I mean that’s sort of the point of the video dude, this is episode 76 it’s an analysis 😂
@@piyush2465 Nah the problem is a bunch of babies not accepting criticism and using bs turn around excuses of why it's not an opinion. It's always NEVER an opinion when something you like is criticized but it's an opinion when you criticize. It's ridiculous and pathetic and about time y'all stop with the bs crying excuses.
Marvel CGI sucks now. They don’t pay their VFX artists enough or give them enough time. More and more artists are speaking out against marvel because of this. They’re prioritizing quantity over quality.
She-Hulk is just horrid. The face is so uncanny and the motion is stiff. There doesn’t appear to be pores or fine hairs. There aren’t micro movements giving it realism. It’s really her face that does it for me. It looks so stiff and rubbery.
It’s really hard because we know what they’re capable of. Infinity War and End Game were amazing. But Phase 4 is just rushed and it’s flooding the market.
And no this isn’t dunking. This is holding marvel accountable. They’re being lazy.
Thank you!
The Love Death + Robots episodes that I would recommend reacting to:
S1 - Sonnie's Edge
S1 - The Witness
S2 - Snow in the Desert
S2 - The Drowned Giant
S3 - Bad Travelling
S3 - Mason's Rats
Great suggestions!!
Also "Beyond the Aquila Rift". It's incredibly solid but the twist at the end is amazingly executed both emotionally and visually. The part where the creature first enters the room and the lighting makes it look human for a second before the rest of its body comes into view is pure artistic genius.
They already did The Witness ;)
Jibaro is the most unique animated short film I think I've ever seen. Nice to see Yun Ling's background paintings get the attention they deserve too. So good.
I think the style in this one pushes it even further into the realm of a fable - which is what I see this story as being.
I'd love to see more thoughts on this episode, but for other reactions I'd say.
- night of the mini dead
- bad travelling
- Mason's rats
- In vaulted halls entombed ( I think this would be good for ya'll to review since it's done entirely in UE5)
cheers
Wtf was that episode? That jewellery loaded woman screams and all the men gets crazy and start attacking each other, and it just ends. This show was really trash. I've seen better episodic shows. Shin-chan comes to my mind.
@@mango-strawberry She was a siren. Her screams put the men under a spell and that's why they ran to the lake and attacked each other.
@@mango-strawberry the woman is a siren and sirens lure men to their death with their screams. TLDR: She was love stricken by the deaf knight because no one has ever refused her. The knight saw she was covered in jewelry and gold and took it, outraged the waters gave have him sound and she killed him for betraying her
@@TheAthens619 ending was bad tho. It'd be for the good if he took revenge for his fallen comrades after they were mercilessly killed by that b1tch
@@mango-strawberry why censor the word bitch with b1tch lol
i think the "worst" shot in the She Hulk trailer was when she is scrolling on her phone, something about that looked super unnatural, be it the animation or super smooth face (probably the same compression), that left the biggest impression on me
Agreed. Her expressions also just look really strange, especially that little gasp at the end
I think when she opened her mouth and all we saw was a black void, something about that seemed weird.
Same, the toothless open mouth look with the smooth green skin just looked bad to me. I don't think it'd be as noticeable when the show is really out since it'd just be one scene but that was the worst shot in the trailer for me.
What makes it super unnatural, is the fact that you can't see her teeth when she gasps, and can barely even see the tongue either. Her mouth just opens up to a completely black portal, which makes it super creepy and off.
Yep, 100% this. Her gasp at the end is just a little too rubbery.
The foot replacement shot was roughhhhhhh once you slowed it down, and then I couldn't unsee it. At this point I have to think that show doesn't have cast shadows anywhere in the episodes.
My personal issue with the She-Hulk stuff is that there's very little texture or depth to Tatiana's CG skin - and when it's right there, contrasting with CGI Mark Ruffalo's incredibly detailed skin, she ends up looking a bit plastic/rubbery, not just because of compression but also through the simple time that's gone into Mark's own skin. Look at your own pictures, even where you say "women tend to be smoother in pop culture": Tatiana's not all that smooth. Give her some imperfection, open up some pores, give some slight sag or stiffness to a papule, just weather the flesh a bit. Everything else is fine, as far as I'm concerned.
In Vaulted Halls, Snow in the Desert, and Good Hunting would be the LD+R episodes I'd want to see a breakdown of.
yeah she looks like a toy from toy story not human
They are just d sucking disney for payroll
once again most of the people who saw this trailer watched it on youtube. of course her textures arent going to be on par, thats compression doing its thing to long format videos.
Remember these guys are trying to run a business at the end of the day. And for these guys that includes not criticizing the property of The Mouse
@@returnalnocturnal7729 then they shouldn’t sell themselves as doing that, if they aren’t going to do it.
Love, Death & Robots recommendation: "Beyond the Aquila Rift" and "Sonnies Edge" from volume 1 are two of my favorites and have amazing art/animation.
We will all riot if it doesn't include those 2
They're my favorite episodes of all three seasons. Here's another comment in support of them.
@Beacom7 Oh my god I was so confused by the notification for this...
"The Ice Age movie? Wtf?"
Sonnie's Edge is amazing. I'd love to see that
Great recommendations.
She is so good in Orphan Black. Each one of the clones walks talks and has a different posture its amazing.
15:35 it's called looking at the shot so much you're not seeing it anymore cause u're so sick of it 😂
This kinda seems the most biased the boys have ever come across in this one. When your first explanation for a trailer getting roasted is "Internet edge lords just wanna dunk on Marvel," that really seems reductive and dismissive of valid criticism. I know they typically try to be positive (even when the effects shots are hot garbage), and I've personally thought they go way too soft on some bad CG in the past, but they'll typically still admit that the shots aren't the best. And when they shift the conversation to TH-cam compression, despite the fact that they typically review from TH-cam clips (unless I've misunderstood, but I don't think so), it definitely seems like carrying the water and shilling a bit.
As for She-Hulk, yes, there are certain shots that look good as stills. Sure, some GTA V shots still look pretty darn good in stills too. But to me, she lacks weight. Her animations are too quick and over exaggerated, and that ends up making her look lighter than a real person. They typically don't have to worry about that with Ruffalo's Hulk, because his whole physique demands slow, weighty movements. That shot of her Tinder-swiping to me looks terrible, not because of the lack of micro-expressions or anything like most comments are saying, but because it's so over-emphasized. It feels like stage acting, where you exaggerate your movements and emotions to make sure the cheap seats can read them. No slight against the actress at all, but if I had a guess I'd assume that this was her first time in a heavy-mo-cap-dependent role and she over-emphasized her performance because she didn't want her character to get lost in translation (didn't they mention actors doing this in a previous episode? I'm sure they did).
Her "weightlessness" also explains why a lot of comments say she looks like a video game. Many of the shots are reminiscent of "idle character" animations that devs will put in to make it so the character isn't just standing there. It doesn't feel like natural, human-motivated movement. And the hair is all over the place in a way that natural hair just...isn't.
Really hate it that the discussion got sidetracked to "incels don't like it" and "TH-cam compression sucks". Those things may both be true (not getting into those discussions here), but regardless it doesn't automatically make the VFX better.
Right completely shifted my opinion of them
Yeah they are weirdly defensive..... it really crossed my mind if they were paid for this. I doubt it but it feels like they are being willfully blind to make it seem better to counteract whatever negativity its got.
@@truetrueevil1 My assumption is they either were paid directly or are being "paid" through connections. They are a VFX company that gets paid to make videos, possible Marvel has talked about contracting them. But also possible they aren't getting a dime directly but are making money from people in the Marvel space such as the stunt performers and VFC artists for these react shows (which are apparently bad now). Either way they clearly are biased as heck.
@@JounLord1 they just don't wanna cross anyone in the business in case they ever ask someone to guest/cameo. kissing the asses of big local VFX companies is good for their business, this was 100% shilling through and through.
Wren’s explanation on our expected detailing on the face region vs what we see is IMO the EXACT reason why people have issues. Also we kind of already have an expectation of what green skinned ladies might look like in the MCU in the form of Gamora and some of the skrull, and this doesn’t quite fit into that expectation of some it seems. Personally it’s the juxtaposition from non she hulk to she hulk that kind of gets me, the CG is close but not quite the same as her non she hulk form so it creates some dissonance
All women's faces have texture so to say that 'well women are just smoother' is frankly insulting. It's like someone's gone full cover photoshop on her to make her 'beautiful' because apparently that's important
Gamora- That’s gotta be part of it- she’s a real reference for smoother green skin with texture, so of course MCU fans will notice when it’s overly smooth.
Tbf Gamora has face paint, as opposed to She-Hulk, so that really helps lol
@@Ailieorz I mean that statement “well women are just smoother” without qualifiers and context IS pretty bad. The context being that guys have things like stubble that can help sell detail more naturally and ladies who in real life don’t usually have pronounced stubble lack that extra “toughness” to break the smoothness of CG. As wren mentioned, they’ve had almost a decade to nail Mark Ruffalo hulk but that doesn’t necessarily mean it translates 100% to Tatiana Maslany she hulk . There are definitely some hints of goodness in some shots that should be acknowledged, especially the focus in on her eyes as she transforms, frankly that’s one of the better shots IMO but as always good to call out stuff that doesn’t seem right when you feel it.
@@Ailieorz three dudes thinking every woman has photoshop smooth face...and they working in that kind of job where you need to know that it's not that ... well damn ahaha
Sam: You don't need to tell people it's bad like everyone will make their own mind up.
While in a reaction video called Bad & Great CGI... >_
You guys are usually really consistent with calling out bad cgi.
When they're being honest that is. Unlike here.
Seems consistent here too, so maybe your bias is what has changed.
@@ThanatoselNyx I don't understand what bias has to do with rushed poorly produced cgi?
I think you can genuinely critique something out of passion. the just ‘don’t watch it’ mentality isn’t very fair. when so much money is pumped into something it should be top tier, especially when the first entry in the franchise has far more believable and detailed vfx. ppl care and want the best for the characters they love. it isn’t always hate.
Sam does this shit all the time, let him whinge about it and just skip past it. His opinion's are some of the most ridiculous, at least the other 2 give some insight onto why it looks a little wonky. Meanwhile Sam just says it's people hating for the sake of hating and nothing else.
I'm sorry, mate, but things like "the cgi looks like a PS2 cut scene" aren't examples of "critiquing out of passion", just like all the hate that trailer got. Wherever I looked any genuine criticism was just covered in tons of comments like those + of course all the shit brains that saw "woke propaganda". You'd have to really dig deep to see anything that isn't just dumb hate.
Then a bunch of people don't watch it, and then the companies whine about entitled fans who didn't watch their crappy movies.
I'm sorry she hulk in like all the clips you guys showed looked like she had movement from gta 4. And yes my expectation is that marvel is on top. They have been notorious for giving up on cgi while doing shows lately.
GTA 4 looked better. Reminded me of the backstage segments from WWE Smackdown on PS2.
Last marvel movie I saw was No way home cgi was garb in some spots and great in others (mostly the outdoor green screen shots) and so is she hulk
I think the real contention with She Hulk is that the audience is used to seeing Gamora, a fully green female, and her character looks amazing. And that's due to intense special effect makeup, but it looks more realistic than a fully CGI character.
In the comics She Hulk is supposed to be a normally proportioned, tall female who's green, so it makes sense that the audience was more expecting a practical effect with makeup as opposed to CGI.
‘people on the internet just want to dunk on things’
- person on the internet who dunks on things
6:15 The segment of comparing TH-cam with how powerful Disney+ can stream insane levels of quality detail is a super critical segment to talk about.
To add my 5 cents to the She-Hulk discussion, I feel like another thing that might trigger some people is the fact that we've already had a green-skin lady in MCU who looks realistic (cause she's not CG). So my brain automatically compares Gamorra and She-Hulk and concludes that the latter looks less real = less good.
But Gamora is a regular height for a humanoid… which is the main difference between her and She Hulk.
@@dubbingsync It's not just the height. There are a million subtle cues that can set off the little flag in our head, that says "this isn't real". Two characters could be the exact same height and proportions, yet still look "off" to us.
That’s an interesting take, probably the best one I’ve read yet. That makes sense
@@ReconXOverland Yeah, sexism is rampant in a lot of the criticism surrounding Marvel movies. Actresses get horrible levels of abuse thrown at them on social media too, and far too often we act like that's just the norm and there's nothing we can do about it. It's basically a modern version of "boys will be boys".
@@ReconXOverland ..."She-Hulk" has been a character for over 40 years, my guy.
Hey Sam... umm... about that "dumb internet culture" where you don't need to tell people things are bad because people will make their own mind up...
Calls people out for telling the world about CG they think is bad on a show where they tell the world about CG they is bad. Nothing hypocritical about that, nope.
I wrote out a whole long-ass comment on this but I'm drunk and can't believe it. It's unbelievable.
On she hulk I think it’s that they always had to composite out her hair, I can tell on certain frames, it keeps reminding you that it’s an effect
For LDR, I would say:
- lucky 13
- life hutch
- snow in the desert
But I think you should definitely make 2/3 vids where you cover each ep (or those that aren't traditionally 2d animated)
At 7:52 I think I know a detail that gets people to say this shot doesn’t look good. I learned this from an episode of your “animators react” episode when looking at the Last of Us.
Our eyes move first when we go to look somewhere, but on She-Hulk, her head starts moving first, then her eyes start looking behind her. I think if they had her look right for a split second before turning her head it would help with some of the “wonkiness” in the scene.
Would you happen to have a link to the episode of them reacting to the Last of Us? I can't find it.
I agree with this but when looking at 7:52, the difference is minute. Barely noticeable. I wouldn't say that's exactly the issue in this case but great catch!
Cannot wait for Love, death and robots episode, I highly recommend the following:
•The witness
• The secret war
• Snow in the desert
• Ice
• Bad travelling
• The very pulse of the machine
I feel each episodes has such a varied art style, across each season I believe these styles are present but this is what I feel the very best of every art style across all 3 seasons, Love the videos guys please keep up the amazing work! ❤️
They did the witness but take away ice and you have the perfect video
@@amal3408 of course they did witness I remember it now and only chose ice as it was a different art style to the rest, in that case I'd say Mason's rats
I wouldn’t mind them to talk about the different style of ice but would love to include masons rats into it
4:48 ^this shot looks incredible ^ While showing the creepiest hand holding a glass in whole CGI record