Alexander on Netflix: How is the Ancient Greek? ⚔️

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 479

  • @polyMATHY_Luke
    @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +49

    Go see Metatron's video about the other historical accuracies and inaccuracies here: th-cam.com/video/gJ06_c6fzRA/w-d-xo.html ⚔
    🏛 Learn Ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Old English at the Ancient Language Institute! Sign up today: ancientlanguage.com ⬅ 📜
    Thanks to the Ancient Language Institute for supporting the channel!

    • @Leonidas_Papadakis
      @Leonidas_Papadakis 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Canalis tuus semper praeclarum contentum exhibet, mirabilem peritiam linguam ostentans, quae vere delectabilis est ad spectandum. Attamen, est necessarium iterare, ut in commentario priore dictum est, Metatron congruit opinionibus politicis dexteris et diffundit falsas notiones de antiqua Roma et Graecia. Si veras perscrutari desideras ex historia, maxime de documentario Alexandri, canalis eius non est locus idoneus. Cave; abundat falsa informatione. Metatron politice ad dextram inclinatur et saepe informationem fallacem praebet, in oppositione ad veros historiae scriptores.
      Visus politici moderni conservativi eius, ut dictum est, prohibent eum a cognitione antiquae vitae Romanae et Graecae.
      TH-cam quidem cogitavit delevisse canalem suum ob numerosas accusationes, sed non contigit. Videos eius spectando illustraberis de quo loquor. Nonnullum est perturbans.

    • @Seventh7Art
      @Seventh7Art 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Αccording to proper historical sources like Plutarch, Alexander was so anti-gay that when a Persian satrap sent him a letter of... offer (related to young men or boys that he wanted to sell to Alexander), the response was that this offer was disgusting and Alexander was furious about such homosexual offer that made him truly angry.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Seventh7Art Plutarch was 400 years later.
      Where in Plutarch do we find this incdent?

    • @Seventh7Art
      @Seventh7Art 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@yllejord You don't understand. Plutarch was not the first to report this incident. It was mentioned by someone close to Alexander, can't remember the name.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Seventh7Art Yes, Plutarch used all kinds of ancient sources but we have no way of checking those sources, do we now.
      Where in Plutarch is this incident mentioned? I may not understand, but this looks like a pretty simple question to me?

  • @ilikesoutzoukakia2312
    @ilikesoutzoukakia2312 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +193

    One minor correction: Aristotle wasn't Athenian, he was born and raised in Stageira, a town in Chalcidice near Thessaloniki. He actually didn't move in Athens until he was around the age of 18, and he never acquired full citizenship, dispite his voluminous contributions to philosophy, raising the prestige of the city through his activity in the school he founded in Lyceum. He even got to the point of being charged for impiety by a priest of the Eleusinian mysteries named Eurymedon, and thus he was forced to leave the city.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +76

      Ah, fair enough, but close for the point of Attic Greek, in which he wrote fluently.

    • @ilikesoutzoukakia2312
      @ilikesoutzoukakia2312 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +21

      Yeah, no doubt about that. Anyway, great video as always, keep up the good work Luke!

    • @aantony2001
      @aantony2001 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      @@polyMATHY_Luke He wrote in it, but we can't be sure of the pronunciation/accent he had, or if he even spoke it in everyday life. It could be something like today's Modern Standard Arabic for him, used by, say, Moroccans in writing and formal speeches, but never in spontaneous language.

    • @francisdec1615
      @francisdec1615 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Aristotle was originally also from Stageira.

    • @leonfth
      @leonfth 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      One minor correction? Αλήθεια, η πλήρης κατάργηση των διφθογκων στην υποτιθέμενη σωστή προφορά δεν έκανε καθόλου εντύπωση;

  • @helgaioannidis9365
    @helgaioannidis9365 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +93

    My husband is Greek and I'm fluent in modern Greek and we couldn't watch it. We tried twice, but it was just unpleasant to watch having knowledge about Greek history and culture.
    We felt irritated by the same things you mentioned.
    If they wanted to use short forms of the names, Alexis is a common short form for Alexandros and a lot of short forms in Greek today derive from how young children try to pronounce difficult names. So credible short forms of Ptolemaios and Hefaistios in the eyes of a modern Greek might have been Tolis and Faistos.
    Modern Greek mothers who are obsessed about their sons call them βασιλιά μου, μάτια μου, καρδιά μου or ψυχή μου (my king, my eyes, my heart, my soul) and this αγάπη μου felt very off somehow. Greek parents use αγάπη μου also for their children, but I wouldn't have chosen it to show the intense bond, would have expected something less obvious.
    I also had Barbarians in mind while watching and while in that production they did the genius move of simply using modern colloquial German, but having Arminius played by an Austrian and the Romans by Italians, here they just used only English native speakers. In Barbarians you could see the whole nonverbal part of body language differ between Romans and Germans, while in Alexander they all seemed the same.

    • @golwenlothlindel
      @golwenlothlindel 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

      Yeah, "αγαπη μου" seems like an Anglicism. Which makes it even weirder that they went to the bother of translating but then didn't find out if it's culturally appropriate.

    • @irmar
      @irmar 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      I used to say αγάπη μου to my late cat a lot. But it's surely a modern usage.

  • @metatronyt
    @metatronyt 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +191

    Spectacular wealth of knowledge as always.

    • @unquietthoughts
      @unquietthoughts 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +20

      2 of my favourite TH-camrs!

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +28

      Just a small slice of the pie; you covered the lion's share, and with aplomb!

    • @Leonidas_Papadakis
      @Leonidas_Papadakis 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      ​@@polyMATHY_LukeΣὰ τὰ βίντεόν σου ἐστιν ὑπέροχα, ἀντίθετα τοῖς τοῦ Μεθαδρώνου, οἷς πλήρης ἐστὶν προσωπικῶν ὑποθέσεων καὶ προκαταλήψεων.

    • @oraetlabora1922
      @oraetlabora1922 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

      ​​​@@Leonidas_Papadakis Metatron's videos are based upon facts.

    • @matzekatze7500
      @matzekatze7500 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Bro what?? ​@@Leonidas_Papadakis

  • @PC_Simo
    @PC_Simo 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +71

    9:21 I noticed that shortening to: ”Alex”, too. It reminds me of Disney’s ”Hercules”, with all its shortenings: ”Herc”, ”Phil”, ”Meg”, etc. 😅.

    • @Pavlos_Charalambous
      @Pavlos_Charalambous 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      " megalexis" ( mega Alex) a joke in modern Greek 😉

    • @holdyerblobsaloft
      @holdyerblobsaloft 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      ​@@Pavlos_CharalambousReminds me of how the varangians heard Kyrios Alexios (Komnenos) and started calling him Kirjalax.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@Pavlos_Charalambous Μεγαλέκος

    • @BrandonBoardman
      @BrandonBoardman 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@Pavlos_CharalambousΠεθαίνω! 😂😂😂😂😂😂

  • @Brandon55638
    @Brandon55638 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +103

    "P-tol" is absolutely hilarious! I agree with you. It would be nice if they made the effort to more fully learn Ancient Greek.

    • @MrAmiaffe
      @MrAmiaffe 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      I died a little inside when I realized that's what they were trying to say. Might as well have called Dareios D-Piddy.

    • @irmar
      @irmar 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      They didn't have to, it would have been perfectly okay to put everything in English. Why try to be "cool" when they are not knowledgeable enough? Better stick to the things one is comfortable with.

    • @PedroMachadoPT
      @PedroMachadoPT 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      What does “P-tol” mean?

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@PedroMachadoPT "Ptol" was how the name Ptolemy was abbreviated in the show. Luke must have read it wrong and it sounded hilarious.

    • @PedroMachadoPT
      @PedroMachadoPT 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Brandon55638
      Thanks.

  • @AleksandrPodyachev
    @AleksandrPodyachev 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +99

    If you are still open to dubbing movie scenes into Latin, can you please do any imperial scene from Star Wars? That would be very fitting!

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +51

      That would be fun.

    • @CleopaOrthodox
      @CleopaOrthodox 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

      ​@@polyMATHY_Luke especially the scene where the Emperor arrives on the death star. Also saruman and gandalf scenes and other Lord of the Rings scenes to😊

    • @lindseykemp7506
      @lindseykemp7506 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@polyMATHY_Luke Palpatine declaring the first galactic empire in the senate during Revenge of the Sith would be awesome

  • @nathanbinns6345
    @nathanbinns6345 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +41

    There’s a scene in one episode of Andromeda, where Kevin Sorbo’s character tries to give a quote in Latin and says (and I quote): “Cartango delendo est.” I had to go back and listen a few times to make sure I was hearing it correctly. So at least even if ancient languages in shows today aren’t always perfect, they could always be worse.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

      Haha well said, Nathan!
      Nice reference to Andromeda!

    • @BBarNavi
      @BBarNavi 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      it's sorbo

    • @Grandwigg
      @Grandwigg 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You'd have to be a Greek god or something to do that!

    • @DieFlabbergast
      @DieFlabbergast 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hollywoodo delenda est?

  • @isimerias
    @isimerias 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +32

    To be honest, I never even considered that they were supposed to be speaking Ancient Greek at all 😅
    Hephaestion saying ιστη was totally lost on me when I didn’t have subtitles on. And when we see what I believe was his coronation as Pharaoh the subtitles claim the Egyptian to be speaking Coptic.
    I don’t remember anybody speaking any Persian though. But safe to say, I was totally under the impression that we were working under the assumption that modern languages were being used in place of their ancient versions out of convenience but to add a little flair. It honestly didn’t bother me as long as I thought it was plain modern Greek with British accents 😂

  • @LurkerDaBerzerker
    @LurkerDaBerzerker 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    Most excellent video, I am glad Metatron had me come by.
    Hope to see more tag teaming from you two.
    ~ cheers. 🍻

  • @rosacuore15
    @rosacuore15 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Same in Romanian, we can short cut the name. For example, Ramona, as Mona or Ramo. Speaking of Netflix documentary, “Alex the great” I didn’t even bother watching it because I noticed how many times they screw around with adding on some modern influences. Great video as always, Luke Ranieri 🙏🙂

  • @dionysus1394
    @dionysus1394 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +35

    Thank you Luke, and metatron for watching this so we didn’t have to 😂😂

  • @olbiomoiros
    @olbiomoiros 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +22

    Macedonians royals wouldn’t speak Macedonian, but Attic. Attic was preferred and this is indicated in the fact that Macedonian inscriptions were in Attic. So I think Attic pronunciation as opposed to Doric pronunciation would be more appropriate for the royals, and maybe Doric pronunciation would be more appropriate for non royals.

    • @aantony2001
      @aantony2001 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      They wrote in Attic, but why would we assume they spoke it?

    • @MohamedRamadan-qi4hl
      @MohamedRamadan-qi4hl 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      ​@@aantony2001they would be able to speak it but it wouldn't be their first accent

    • @irmar
      @irmar 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@MohamedRamadan-qi4hlIt was a question of snobbery. As the Russian imperial court and nobility, where they spoke French because it was the cool thing to do.

  • @alexandrosmoutsios8613
    @alexandrosmoutsios8613 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    09:05 As a Greek I couldn't help myself laughing out when I heard "Hey, Heph". It's like Phoebs in Friends :)

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I know. It's hilarious. 😂😂😂😂😂😂

    • @danx4813
      @danx4813 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      "P-tol" was much funnier

  • @VladTevez
    @VladTevez 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

    Did anyone said "malaka" in the documentary?

    • @ax4178
      @ax4178 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      I am sure the greek audience did. About 100000000000 times

    • @irmar
      @irmar 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ax4178 Best comment!

  • @Brandon55638
    @Brandon55638 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +35

    You speaking English with the Classical Latin accent always make me laugh.

  • @SlavicDubs
    @SlavicDubs 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +13

    It's so interesting, in Russian they also have an informal vocative form for female names by shortening the name. For example, instead of "Sasha!" (Саша), they might say "Sash!" (Саш).
    Another interesting fact is that in Serbian we have apparently the same ending for the vocative case as in Greek. We would say "Aleksandre!" (from Aleksandar)

    • @Pavlos_Charalambous
      @Pavlos_Charalambous 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      In modern Greek Alexander is Aleksadros but when you want to call that person by his name you say Aleksadre 😉

    • @F_A_F123
      @F_A_F123 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      It's for words ending with /a/ (if it doesn't end in a, it can't form the Neo Vocative) (btw, letter 'я' makes the /a/ sound). It's not just for female names. It could be a male name (Ваня -> Вань, Саня -> Сань, Стёпа -> Стёп, Паша -> Паш, etc.), it could be not a name at all (мама 'mom' -> мам, папа 'dad' -> пап), and it even can be plural (ребята 'guys (not gendered)' -> ребят). And it's very common.

    • @alexpoetov3213
      @alexpoetov3213 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It only works in Russian if they address to sombebody. For instance they may say "Sash, come here !" instead of "Sasha, come here !" but they never say "This is Sash" instead of "This is Sasha". And yes, it can be applied to male names too.

    • @SlavicDubs
      @SlavicDubs 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@alexpoetov3213 I know, that's what "vocative case" means. Звательный падеж

    • @F_A_F123
      @F_A_F123 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      @@alexpoetov3213 yes, it works the same way in Greek and Serbian (because otherwise, it wouldn't be called vocative)

  • @markp44288
    @markp44288 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Your videos are delightful and informative. I enjoy every time a new one drops.

  • @prof.ballabypikkalbhattham4507
    @prof.ballabypikkalbhattham4507 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +76

    Remind me why Netflix hasn't hired Luke yet?

    • @vlc-cosplayer
      @vlc-cosplayer 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +38

      "Wait, you're telling me that there's people who actually study ancient languages?"

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +39

      Haha, let them know I'm available.

    • @heriander_
      @heriander_ 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +20

      Their money gone wasted on Sensitivity Reader and Diversity & Inclusivity Consultant. They have no space left for the actual expert 🤣

    • @omardarwish958
      @omardarwish958 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Because he knows what he’s doing

  • @Giannis_Sarafis
    @Giannis_Sarafis 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Very useful observations. Interestingly enough, but just a coincidence in this case, mama (μάμα) is pretty common in northern Greek dialects till today.

  • @staticforce5367
    @staticforce5367 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

    The new Percy Jackson series has ancient Greek in it. You should go over it! It's in the last episode. I love your work btw!

    • @roberttrevino62800
      @roberttrevino62800 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      It’s not that bad. I understood it fine but the pronunciation wasn’t the best

    • @Grandwigg
      @Grandwigg 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@roberttrevino62800it sounds like more effort was spent on the program intended for 'time wasting adolescents ' than the one for 'discerning adults' .
      That said, I'm told Riordan actually cares about research. And I imagine he has a bit of influence on adaptations of his work.

    • @roberttrevino62800
      @roberttrevino62800 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@Grandwigg yeah the show was very disappointing. I’ve been a Percy Jackson fan since 2009 and the show departed from the book in many areas of character development

    • @sasperimenoume6337
      @sasperimenoume6337 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      New greek

  • @KebaRPG
    @KebaRPG 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    English does use shortened Forms of Names used as Nick/Pet Names... Bobby for Robert; Lizzie For Elizabeth; Kathy/Kate/Katie for Katherine/Katerina; Etc...

  • @Marble8King
    @Marble8King 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Everything you said was super accurate. Just a minor correction: Aristotle was Macedonian, from the city of Stagira. In Athens, he lived and taught.

  • @ChristinaDiCali
    @ChristinaDiCali 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    There's a poster online (pinkish in color) called 💗8 Different Types of Love--According to the Ancient Greeks 💗... from Eros to Agape

  • @francisdec1615
    @francisdec1615 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    13:25 That used to be the upper class pronunciation of 'mam(m)a' in all of Europe a little more than 100 years ago.

  • @IAT1964
    @IAT1964 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Another thing I picked up was the focus on homosexuality, and also the inconsistent use of Macedonian and Greek. In certain narratives there was an explicit distinction between the two, and on others, everyone was the same. Almost in an attempt to portray only negative aspects. The issue of homosexuality is vastly overplayed by earlier historians in Ancient Greece. These have been largely debunked. BTW, this is the first time I ever heard that ATG was a homosexual.

    • @SpartanLeonidas1821
      @SpartanLeonidas1821 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Macedonian is Greek

    • @electra1920
      @electra1920 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It seems to me that you have not understood anything.... Macedonia is Greece.... is a region of Greece....

    • @IAT1964
      @IAT1964 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@electra1920 I come from northern Greece. I fully understand everything. My point is that the mocumentary they play with the wording in order to pass different messages.

  • @russergee49
    @russergee49 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +17

    Haven’t watched the program yet, but it seems very jarring to me to jump around from modern to ancient Greek (and not really achieve a natural sound in either). It honestly sounds like more of an accident where they manage something that is surprisingly historically accurate. I imagine that it takes you right out of any immersion you might have watching it, for those who are familiar with modern and/or ancient Greek.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Indeed!

    • @helgaioannidis9365
      @helgaioannidis9365 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yes, as someone who speaks modern Greek it was irritating and I couldn't watch it all.

  • @RoiSoleilXIV
    @RoiSoleilXIV 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Shortening the names this way (dropping the syllables after the stressed one) is not so common in italian, nor something to be considered standard or "normal". It's a characteristic southern (and perhaps even central) trait (in the roman dialect the name is also preceeded by the interjection "ah", and this vocative is perceived as very roman), in the north of Italy there is any particular type of vocative.

  • @SlavicDubs
    @SlavicDubs 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    "So we have one or two or five problems with this." 😂😂

  • @firstaidsack
    @firstaidsack 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +51

    Perfect timing, I just finished Metatron's video :D

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      Awesome! Welcome

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Indeed 🎯.

  • @FlexibleFlyer50
    @FlexibleFlyer50 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    We're just surprised that Netflix didn't make Alexander black. Oh well, maybe a sequel? Like Alexander
    Strikes Black.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      He wasn't black, he wasn't British either.
      So... no-one's surprised. That they didn't think of making him, you know, like, Greek.

    • @FlexibleFlyer50
      @FlexibleFlyer50 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@yllejord For a bit of authenticity, I'd agree.
      After all, Brad Pitt played a Greek (Achilles) in that Trojan War flick. Nothing is impossible today.

  • @VespasianJudea
    @VespasianJudea 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    It’s funny, we have a food bank named Agape in my town. I’ve used it myself. I’m glad I’m beyond those days and I’m also glad they can help those who still need it. Thanks for the video.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That’s lovely; it’s the Greek equivalent of cāritās, Latin for charity. How important it is!

    • @VespasianJudea
      @VespasianJudea 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@polyMATHY_Luke
      Yeah, I looked it up before. It is pretty cool and very fitting actually.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      That is the same word for "love" mentioned in this video, but in the case of the food bank it may have come from a very specific usage of the word: this is how the first christians called their common meals. According to the NT, maybe the apostles' acts.

    • @VespasianJudea
      @VespasianJudea 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@yllejord
      Possibly. I come from an apostolic background but lately I’ve been more interested in the studies of Martin Luther and the division of the church into Lutheranism.

  • @Stelios.Posantzis
    @Stelios.Posantzis 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The start was quite subtle but then ripped it to shreds! Thoroughly enjoyable!
    One would think that with modern technology and all (i.e. internet, great computing power, sophisticated programs etc.) the spreading of knowledge would be easier and wider. Not so! It is ignorance and errors that get propagated instead! You're doing a good job putting things in their right place, rather thankless and never ending work, thus helping preserve and spread knowledge. This sounds rather naïve perhaps but it's the best way I can put it in words in this particular time.

  • @embreis2257
    @embreis2257 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    14:19 I'm not a native English speaker but I know his name in English only as _Hephaistion_ and can't recall to ever have heard the other variant. haven't watched the Oliver Stone film from 2004 for many years but maybe the actors back then trained my ear for his name.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      In English the only standard spelling and pronunciation is Hephaestion: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestion
      Both the 2004 movie and the 2024 Netflix documentary are highly anomalous.

    • @golwenlothlindel
      @golwenlothlindel 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This is a consequence of having British actors play Greeks. The problem is that they're stressing the diphthong, so it comes out as "aye", but the correct pronunciation is [HephæsTIon]. In English, diphthongs automatically receive the stress. Not so in Greek however. It's one of those cases where the harder you try to say the diphthong correctly, the more wrong you'll be. You literally have to destress it, and it will come out correctly. But that's like someone saying "don't think about elephants". It generally takes an English speaker quite a long time to drop this habit.

    • @embreis2257
      @embreis2257 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@golwenlothlindel does it mean other Germanic languages get closer to the Greek ideal: e.g. in German: Hephaistion (ancient Greek Ἡφαιστίων) pronounced _Hēphaistíōn_
      Danish: Hefaistion (Oldgræsk: Ἡφαιστίων, lat. Hephaestio)
      Dutch: Hephaistion (Oudgrieks: Ἡφαιστίων)
      Swedish: Hefaistion
      Norwegean: Hefaistion (gresk: Ἡφαιστίων)

  • @aveldpa
    @aveldpa 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Aristotle was not Athenian, in fact he was disliked by the Athenians and eventually was forced to leave the city.

  • @velvetcroc9827
    @velvetcroc9827 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The accentual system of standard Japanese is extremely similar to the pitch system used for ancient Greek, so interestingly, ancient Greek would have sounded a lot like modern Japanese.

  • @thespearton4551
    @thespearton4551 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Hey Luke, might I suggest reviewing the Latin used in Baldur's Gate 3? All their spells use Latin and would love to hear your opinion on it!

  • @yiannisroubos8846
    @yiannisroubos8846 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Even in modern Greek we have shortened names. My name is Ιωάννης but it's always shortened to Γιάννη, it doesn't make me shocked that ancient Greeks would have done the same ?

  • @Khrada
    @Khrada 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    A very interesting video. Knowing that they mixed ancient and modern Greek really makes me wonder the thought process of their production.

  • @janetmackinnon3411
    @janetmackinnon3411 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Oh, a proper approach to language is such a joy!

  • @yllejord
    @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I'm reading a historical novel about ancient Sparta now, where they do the exact same thing with the names.
    At first, I cringed.
    It's like some USA college dudebros talking to each other.
    But I also thought that yeah, they would probably have some shortened familiar names and this would be the equivalent, so... fine...? Probably...? I cringe cause I'm Greek but this was not written with me in mind...? I guess...?
    (haven't watched the documentary but I kinda loved that «ΙΣΤΑ!»)

  • @irmar
    @irmar 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Greek-Italian here. I was rolling on the floor with laughter with Alex and Ptol. Not to mention the character calling their mother °μαμά". Why couldn't they do everything in English and avoid pitfalls?

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I agree. It would work perfectly fine with everything in English, especially since they were not willing to learn Ancient Greek.

  • @SFGJP
    @SFGJP 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    First!
    These videos are always such a treat. Thanks, Luke!

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Thanks for watching!

  • @BarelloSmith
    @BarelloSmith 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    As a native German speaker, I've actually never seen or heard the spelling of Hephaistion as Hephaestion... 😅 The latter sounds rather weird to me.

  • @62peppe62
    @62peppe62 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

    Just watched Metatron. Congratulations to both.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Thanks for coming over to mine!

  • @paulstewart1557
    @paulstewart1557 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I love your enthusiasm!

  • @nessthing
    @nessthing 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    7 and a half minutes in, one single Greek word has been pronounced but I’ve seen two midroll ads which started in the middle of a word as well as having to sit through the channel’s own paid promotion.

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      There weren't supposed to be any midroll ads, thanks for letting me know!

  • @Mtonazzi
    @Mtonazzi 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Honestly, I agree. Go full into a language or not at all. I'd rather have them all speaking plain Perfidious Albionesse and my mind will go "ok, it's ancient greek, 'translated' for my convenience". Peppering actual greek words here and there feels weird.

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I also agree. I feel the same way about how Latin is commonly used in some movies and video games.

  • @hellohjbgjh
    @hellohjbgjh 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I love it when you speak English with the accent way ^^

  • @andreaskalogeropoulos5371
    @andreaskalogeropoulos5371 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    The (modern) greek shortening for the name "Alexandros" is "Alexis" or "Alekos"

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @Islamo-Banana_Republic_2.0 no, Alexis is a very old shortening. But it was supposed to be a shortening of Alexios. That didn't stop friends and relatives of various Alexandroi from calling them Alexi.
      Sometimes, half the family would use Alexi and the other half Aleko, because "Alexis is from Alexios, I'm telling you, stop calling him that."
      Fun times.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @Islamo-Banana_Republic_2.0 I'm old. I know very well what we did 20, 30 and 50 years ago. Stop this.

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @Islamo-Banana_Republic_2.0 you can't just insist that people did not use "Alexis" earlier than 20-30 years ago. That's absurd. Just because your family did not call you that?
      Even if you missed all other "Alexides", even if you missed all the songs, books and movies with an "Alexis" in them, you *must* have heard of Alexis Zorbas. At least?

  • @Videnya
    @Videnya 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Loved this. Do you have a video exploring Byzantine/Medieval Greek? Would be cool to know more about the language of the Byzantine Empire

  • @fedethefico
    @fedethefico 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Doesn't Netflix have enough resources to ask (and pay) actual experts when making documentaries?

  • @babowl
    @babowl 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video !

  • @Sunyatasattva
    @Sunyatasattva 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    A little comment on the “Italian vocative case”. The shortened versions can indeed be used for something other than calling a person. You can say “Sono andato a mangiare una pizza con Gae(tano)”, “Ire mi ha detto che sta male”. At least this is true for Southern Italian (Campania and below), I think I've heard it in Central Italian dialects too, but not sure at all about Northern.

  • @AthanasiosJapan
    @AthanasiosJapan 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +46

    Netlfix? Όχι, ευχαριστώ.

    • @oraetlabora1922
      @oraetlabora1922 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Ἀπὸ σφῶν φεύγωμεν.

    • @alechianese01
      @alechianese01 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Kaì Luke

    • @oraetlabora1922
      @oraetlabora1922 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@alechianese01 Τί ὁ Λούκιος ἀποφαίνει;

  • @cryintale
    @cryintale 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you for the video. I think the shortening forms performed effectively in the vocative are rather called to be emotive and function like in diminutives for the purpose of endearment. Is there no attestation that they are used across Italian in non-vocative cases, though (if not any in Greek or Latin etc)? I think it is the same in American English like calling Michael, Mike just informal but then standard-americanized.

  • @ArturoStojanoff
    @ArturoStojanoff 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Languages with vocatives still have shortened names too

  • @albertito77
    @albertito77 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    12:36 same with making Maximus the Spaniard speak Australian

  • @zacharyconner9319
    @zacharyconner9319 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video

  • @youtubeyoutube936
    @youtubeyoutube936 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Are there not villages in Sicily and mainland Italy where they speak Ancient Greek?

  • @thejohnny0018
    @thejohnny0018 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    Love your channel! I enjoy your videos, Keep up the good work! ❤ I’ve always loved Antiquity/ Classical history. I’ve been teaching myself Latin for several months now and can speak it a little( I’m not fluent) with a slight American accent 😂

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      That’s great! Keep up the hard work!

  • @aantony2001
    @aantony2001 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    There's a point to be made that spoken Macedonian not only wasn't necessarily that close to Classical Attic, but in fact we also know in some cases it resembled Modern/Koine Greek generally (e.g. the simplification of some consonant clusters, the form of the infinitive and the genitive of the 1st declension), and we can't really know that much of the pronunciation of the dialects, but there are hypotheses that many Greek dialects contributed significantly to the pronunciation change into Modern Greek.
    Still, traditional Attic Ancient Greek would probably be more accurate, but it's fun to think about the possibility of it something like in the show in the case of αγαπη.

  • @exorbis9880
    @exorbis9880 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I like the art in the background

  • @furl_w
    @furl_w 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Resisting the urge to sing Soyuz Nerushimy after the title card chord.

  • @christosmak.6741
    @christosmak.6741 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Wasn't Aristotle from Halkidiki?

    • @andreastheo2019
      @andreastheo2019 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yea

    • @electra1920
      @electra1920 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Halkidiki, Macedonia.... Greece

  • @sirsherguioth4573
    @sirsherguioth4573 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What do you think was the ancient greek pronunciation used by apostles and early christians?

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I discuss this in detail here: th-cam.com/video/dQBpwKWnZAo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jaUinD2jgAdzNoJa

  • @CalebAyrania
    @CalebAyrania 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Would it be likely the shortening was on the last part and not the primary syllables? like in modern Xander, so Xandre, Leme, etc emphasizing on the vocative last part of their names??!

  • @YiannissB.
    @YiannissB. 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    When you said "a Netflix... documentary" i thought for a moment you were about to burst out laughing!
    Also, for all the years spent in Athens, i'm pretty sure Aristotle was a Macedonian born.

  • @haveagoodday2405
    @haveagoodday2405 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    bravo to your videos ... this is a big hope to all that we love ancient greek clasicism ... ancient greek language ...
    this is a light in the dark era that we are living

  • @Sarbald9
    @Sarbald9 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Luke, Luke, Luke... first things first. The word αγάπη with the meaning spoken by Olympias is a christian word. There is no such thing as αγάπη in secular ancient greek works. First mention of αγάπη is in New Testament.

  • @hglundahl
    @hglundahl 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    3:53 Speaking of Doric ... if I recall correctly, just as Bavarian was the first dialect to introduce î > ei in the time around 1300, wasn't Doric the first of the "dialects" (more like languages from a Nordic perspective, my Greek professor considered Swedish, Danish, Norwegian would certainly in their view have counted as dialects of the same language) that made the swich φ [pʰ] > [f]?
    Can this be the reason for the spellings like "Bilippos" on part of people who still pronounced φ as [pʰ], but already had started to fricatise the mediae? They were basically doing what Finnish does when Swedish kaffi (to their ears) is approximated kahvi?

  • @kristinthomsen3175
    @kristinthomsen3175 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Metatron said to say hi.

  • @GreekWonderchild
    @GreekWonderchild 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Yeah, that “documentary” was all sorts of cringe, especially for a Greek person. Great content as usual, Luke 👏👏

  • @Basil_o_brouzos
    @Basil_o_brouzos 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Tbh my brother's name is palaiologos and ever since I was young I called him pal so it kinda makes sense to call ptoleme like ptol but certainly not petol. And I don't know if they did that in ancient greece

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      They didn't.They would just use the vocatives Αλέξανδρε, Ηφαιστίον and Πτολεμαίε.

  • @hglundahl
    @hglundahl 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    15:39 In Swedish there are two standards of transliteration.
    The wife of Agamemnon is either Clytaemnestra (older) or Klytaimnestra. However, when you spell like that, it would never be "Hephaistion" it would be "Hefaistion"
    It's the decision to entirely bypass Latin.

  • @pile333
    @pile333 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I wonder if autotune (and vocoder) could be used to correct those ancient languages pronunciation in movies.

  • @nikolaosaggelopoulos8113
    @nikolaosaggelopoulos8113 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    That was a nice analysis and I agree with nearly all of your points except in that it is prudent that we do not assume we fully understand the Greek of the time, which was spoken in very many different dialects. Affecting Attic would have been incorrect for Olympias and possibly also for Alexander and Hephaestion when talking to each other. In any case, the aim of this movie should not be a presentation of the current scholarship on Macedonian Greek.
    As for those courses, it is worthwhile to have some courses on the topic and to highlight the variants, as you do for mama, which would help guide research in let's say Indoeuropean linguistic studies that often take Attic Greek as the only type of ancient Greek worth considering. In most cases words said in a Doric dialect would sound closer to Latin than if Attic had been used.

  • @pile333
    @pile333 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    As long as a filmmaking production decides to use old languages (or even foreign languages), as they've been increasingly making in the last twenty years or some, either they use them properly or they shouldn't use them at all (because it could be even a distracting issue for the audience). It's not that if you add some old idioms words, that means that it's a certification of realism or quality. No, use them right or don't use them at all, like they did in the past. Or better hire Luke Ranieri to speak them properly! 👍

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Haha thanks for the vote!

  • @ΧΑΡΗΣΚΟΥΡΗΣ-ψ3ν
    @ΧΑΡΗΣΚΟΥΡΗΣ-ψ3ν 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Concerning the matter of accents, it would be fun to imagine the following:
    Ionic = Southern English
    Athenian = Received Pronunciation (while Cockney is spoken by the common folk)
    Laconian = Lowland Scottish (because of Gerard Butler)
    Inner Peloponnese = Highland Scottish
    Northern Doric = Irish
    Epirotan = Scots (maybe suited for Macedonian, but Irish works too)
    Thessalian = West Country
    Boeotian = Great Lakes accent (weird changes in phonology)
    Pamphylian = Caribbean Creoles
    Koine = General American / Transatlantic

  • @forrestcavin1802
    @forrestcavin1802 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Lovely watch

  • @Slokkatron
    @Slokkatron 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Came indeed due to Metatron's video. Thank you for continually uploading very interesting videos about ancient Greek.🤓

  • @watch-Dominion-2018
    @watch-Dominion-2018 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    12:58 - cue the Mama clip from Liar Liar

  • @ariebrons7976
    @ariebrons7976 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Well, wouldn't the formal way of adressing them be;
    Alexandros Makedonikos
    Antiochos Ephipanes
    and Ptolomaios Philopater

    • @yllejord
      @yllejord 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      O Alexandre
      O Antioche
      O Ptolemaie
      Add the dad's name for extra formality: O Filippide. Or the dynastic name: O Argeada.

    • @PC_Simo
      @PC_Simo 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That sounds very much like the Irish O’ -prefix in the surnames 🇮🇪.

    • @ariebrons7976
      @ariebrons7976 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@PC_Simo
      It actually comes from the word Haw.
      Haw, or Hey where common ways people would adress each other in ancient times.
      From this we derive words such as:
      Hey, Hi, Hail, Ho,Hoi, Oh and Ave.

  • @EvanTheJust
    @EvanTheJust 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    7:25 Στα νέα ελληνικά χρησιμοποιούμε το ρήμα "στάσου" (imperative "Stand"), απόγονο του ἵστημι, για να ζητήσουμε από κάποιον να σταματήσει να κάνει κάτι ή να περιμένει. Μπορώ να φανταστώ ξεκάθαρα τη χρήση του μεταξύ δύο μαχόμενων. Ίσως να υπάρχει, λοιπόν, έμπνευση από τα νέα ελληνικά για τη χρήση του εδώ; Ή ίσως να είναι και ορθή...

  • @stefansondergaard
    @stefansondergaard 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I know some classical and modern Greek. But I'm watching the "documentary" duped and subbed in Spanish (American) just to confuse things and learn more Spanish ;-)

  • @yenotich
    @yenotich 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Hey Luke! If it's possible, check out the Latin in new russian "Master and Margarita" (2024). There's an episode where Yeshua Ha-Notsri talks to Pilatus in Latin

  • @ich4532
    @ich4532 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hi Luke, do you know the assimil latin book in french? if so, do you think its good for a learner or not?

  • @HCRAYERT.
    @HCRAYERT. 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Have you thought about becoming a Latin writer, and maybe compose poetry or stories in the language?

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I have written many poems and several stories in Latin. Here is one: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/fabula-anatina-a-duckish-tale-in-latin

  • @antheusmain
    @antheusmain 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Are you perhaps going to dive into an analysis of the "The Frogs" film in ancient greek that release some months ago?

  • @ledoctelatiniste5536
    @ledoctelatiniste5536 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Je me demande si στῆθι (impératif aoriste) n'aurait pas été préférable, puisqu'il s'agit d'un ordre ne portant pas sur une situation continue et de longue durée.
    Autrement, merci beaucoup pour tout ce que tu fais ; je suis tes vidéos depuis quelques temps maintenant, avec un plaisir toujours constant.

  • @schnabeldoktor229
    @schnabeldoktor229 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    You should check out the greek spoken by byzantines in Age of empires 4!

    • @aantony2001
      @aantony2001 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      In AoE4 it's essentially Katharevousa. Random mixing of Modern and Ancient Greek with a Modern pronunciation.
      It's very hard to recreate "Medieval" Greek because, and I'm kind of oversimplifying, they spoke Modern Greek and tried to write in Classical Attic.

  • @watching7650
    @watching7650 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Yeah, we know your fixation with age-appropriate pronunciation but there ought to be a limit. And the limit is this: to reconstitute pronunciation for a given point in time, you have to do a polyfactorial evaluation including not the "before vs after" state of each vowel (and some consonant combos) in each different setting, the as yet undocumented, mainly "reconstituted" character of the accents and spirits, the exact dialect spoken, the geographical origin of the speaker, the various fads of the time of which we may well be unaware We don't even know if vowel quantity was simply quantitative or associated to sound change, fercryinoutloud. So while I highly respect your efforts, which are of first quality, I'll say: give me any day the modern pronunciation! It connects us to the entire context of the flow of history, it is understandable to all (except some people who learned in Erasmian and never bothered to realize that there is a whole language history outside "classic" -- I'll gladly call them idiots.) More important for any movie to which other extralinguistic considerations like the plot are way more important than the language -- it doesn't distract attention with a dubitative evaluation of every utterance.
    Remember that unlike Latin, Greek is a living language without interruption, as a mother tongue, written by mother-tongue speakers, so the situation is diametrically opposed to that of Latin speech in movies. If you're making a movie (even a pseudo-documentary) about, say, Chaucer's time and you employ not only the old-time grammar and vocabulary but also the suppposed Chaucerian-cum-Norman pronunciation, will you ever find anyone crazy enough to finance that? Unlike that situation, movie people do it gladly for exotic or ancient languages only because they rightly think that the public is way too ignorant and careless to bother about it.

  • @Faustobellissimo
    @Faustobellissimo 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Olympia was from Epirus.

    • @wankawanka3053
      @wankawanka3053 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      northwest greek dialect

  • @tm2bow653
    @tm2bow653 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I think they did this on purpose. They prefered to use a pronunciation we know it's true rather than with a pronunciation based on theories. Concerning the vocative ''Αλέξανδρε" it exists in modern Greek so if they like modern Greek I wonde why they don't use it :)

    • @polyMATHY_Luke
      @polyMATHY_Luke  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      That’s silly. That’s like saying that Alexander the Great is based on theory. He’s not. Nor is the ancient pronunciation of Greek. These are historical facts.

    • @tm2bow653
      @tm2bow653 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      ​@@polyMATHY_Luke​ I'm sorry but what we know about ancient pronunciation is based either on ancient texts explaining how to pronounce Greek or on comparisons with other ancient languages. What we know about those ancient languages is based on the same kind of methods itself. Let's add to that the way we pronounce today with our modern pronunciation (we the modern English, American, French, German, Greek or Japanese or Italian people). I believe we should be a little bit more humble about that.

  • @mattsuhoversnik5517
    @mattsuhoversnik5517 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Have you done this for the movie Tombstone with Val Kilmer?

  • @Aeacus202
    @Aeacus202 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Not only you right but also Olympia spole Epyrus Greek which had developed its own accent.

  • @cristianocaravaggio2731
    @cristianocaravaggio2731 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    So dreamy when you laugh ❤

  • @arieldelafuente5346
    @arieldelafuente5346 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The "mamma" looked to my like a Type 2 Error: They do all wrong but the final result is ok.

  • @janstaniszewski536
    @janstaniszewski536 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    God what I just heard, Did Lucius just make an actual Latin accent in English wtf😂😂

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Yes. It's absolutely hilarious. 😂😂😂

  • @MiguelBonilla-o7b
    @MiguelBonilla-o7b 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    My brain glitched when he spoke English and not latin 😂😂

    • @Brandon55638
      @Brandon55638 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      😂😂😂😂😂