Sign up for Lingopie at this link to immerse yourself in foreign language content made comprehensible from beginners to advanced learners: learn.lingopie.com/lukepolymathy Gorgo speaks Doric Greek in Civilization VI! But how is the Greek? Does she use an authentic reconstruction of the Spartan accent of the 5th century BC? I will review this and more as we explore the fascinating world of Ancient Greek from the other great city-state of Classical Antiquity: this is SPARTA. 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873 ☕ Support my work with PayPal: paypal.me/lukeranieri And if you like, do consider joining this channel: th-cam.com/channels/Lbiwlm3poGNh5XSVlXBkGA.htmljoin 🏛 Latin by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/latin-by-the-ranieri-dowling-method-latin-summary-of-forms-of-nouns-verbs-adjectives-pronouns-audio-grammar-tables 🏺Ancient Greek by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/ancient-greek-by-the-ranieri-dowling-method-latin-summary-of-forms-of-nouns-verbs-adjectives-pronouns-audio-grammar-tables 🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons: th-cam.com/play/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam.html 👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons: th-cam.com/video/j7hd799IznU/w-d-xo.html 🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel for content in Latin, Ancient Greek, & Ancient Egyptian) th-cam.com/users/ScorpioMartianus 🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio: lukeranieri.com/audio 🌍 polýMATHY website: lukeranieri.com/polymathy/ 🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram: instagram.com/lukeranieri/ 🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast: th-cam.com/users/LegioXIII 👕 Merch: teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus 🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com 🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com 📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon: amzn.to/2nVUfqd Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart 0:00 Intro 0:44 First Line 9:11 Second Line 15:30 Third Line 18:43 Fourth Line 24:32 Fifth Line 29:11 Sixth Line 33:16 With your shield, or on it! 34:36 Seventh Line 39:31 Eighth Line 40:47 Summary & Conclusion #gorgo #civilization6 #greek
An other funny video of the guy that pushes the idea that Greeks spoke closer to how drunken Australians sound or Irish, rather than actual middle-age or modern Greeks, actually, according to that guy, far from it :P it so funny and sad in the same time.
Luke as a native Greek and avid enjoyer of your videos, they seriously need to find you and start bringing you on for translation projects such as these for any movies or games with Latin and Ancient Greek, you would clean up so many inaccuracies and add an insane level of detail I don't think is anywhere else seen
Despite not knowing modern Greek and definitely not knowing my Attic from my elbow, this was one of the most interesting 40 minutes I've spent in a while. Cheers, Luke.
While other TH-camrs keep recycling the same boring content over and over Luke somehow never runs out of outstanding and extremely interesting content. Great stuff!
Another thing "technically" wrong (on the writers side) is the fact that infinitives in Laconian Doric would be -ην not -εῖν due to the way it contracts ε + ε as seen even in dialectal inscriptions. Still a great effort to doricize in place of not bothering with it. EDIT 1: Around 31:43 εως was ι(ϝ)ος in the third declension of Laconic For the shift from antevocalic ε to ι in Laconian, see Buck p. 20. Number 5 So my reconstruction instinct tells me it may be δυνάμι(ϝ)ος with the digamma containing being the "more" archaic form
I’m playing as Gorgo right now in Civ 6 and I thought I’d look up on TH-cam any documentaries about her you were the first vid that wasn’t directly about her in the game and tips and such. I watched the entire vid and got nostalgic of the good old days of TH-cam when you would come across random weird niche shit like this all the time. Great vid.
I think in the seventh line, the τοι is not an enclitic particle (like in Attic), but the Dative of 'τυ' "you", making the loose translation a more fitting 'And you will suffer in the same way'.
You know, I had originally considered that, but then dismissed it since the rest of the original text is filled with Atticisms. Moreover, τοι is just archaic for σοι in Attic, hence its meaning “ya know”. Still, I like your interpretation.
32:35-32:44 The reason for this sound change in Doric was undoubtedly because the σ before the δ was eventually aspirated and then dropped, obviously lengthening the δέλτα. Kind of like how Andalusian or Caribbean Spanish tends to aspirate or completely omit the s before stops (e.g. "eppañol" or "e(h)pañol" instead of "español," or "ettrrella" or "e(h)trella" instead of "estrella."
Just today, I was speaking with a friend about a ninety-year-old he has known in Spetzes (ancient Ophiussa island), Greece, who claimed to have studied Doric at his (primary) school. I told him: "It would be almost impossible to teach Doric, even if someone really wanted to". Then, however, I told him that the only form of "Doric" that one could properly teach today is Tsakonian (modern Laconian): our speech going on, it emerged that this elder is not a native of Spetzes, but of Tyros (village of "Cheese", hehe!), in the middle of Tsakonia! So we concluded that the Doric he learned was certainly Tsakonian. Anyway, I was astounded to know that some schools of remote Tsakonia at the time taught this almost-extinct dialect. P.S.: yes, of course Σπαρτιάτης is Σπαρτιάτας in Doric, as well as Ἑλλήνων is Ἑλλάνων, τρέστης is τρέστας (assuming this word exists in Doric), καρτερός is κρατερός, etc. Actually, τεος is attested as a Doric enclitic in stead of σου: it should then be "τιμά τεος". But it's clear that this is just very fine Doric-like flavour, as attested in Attic drama: otherwise intervocalic S should become H, and many other changes should occur: even Plutarch writes "Οὐκ ἂν εἴη ἀτείχιστος πόλις...", but true Doric modal particle is κα rather than ἄν. P.P.S.: I ask again here, in case you did not read yesterday: Do you still use your FB account? I wrote to you a lot of time ago but I don't think you have read my message. Otherwise, how should I contact you? Thanks!
@@logos3522 I don't know if it is still taught. This elder told my friend it was taught to him some 80-85 years ago. I wish you the best for your return and I'd like to hear from you again, when you find out what's the situation in Tsakonia now.
I'm happy to see another videogame language analysis but I'm sad that you didn't do an age of mythology video I asked it years ago and i didn't know they were going to remaster it, so they released the remaster last month so it's the best time to analyse the greek spoken in age of mythology anyway, its not a big deal, I love your content
It would be great if someday you read in Greek philosophers like Parmenides, Heraclitus, Anaximander and Aristotle, since most people read their texts in Erasmian or Modern Greek pronunciation, it would be interesting to know how they probably pronounced their texts.
The Thucydides quote is from the siege of Melos. The Melians were neutral, and the Athenians offered no justification, simply offering the famous quote.
Are you planning to take a look at Civ VI's Pericles as well? I've noticed that his voicelines seem to have vowel length and pitch accent, I'd be very interested in seeing how much of them is actually right.
The recent film "Megalopolis" by Francis Coppola uses some select phrase of Latin in the dialog and also Latin text on scrolling reader boards. I would be interested to listen to your translations of those phrases when they become available on media like Bluray that can be paused. The story in the film "Megalopolis" is an allegory based on the Conspiracy of Lucius Sergius Catilina in 63 BCE. As an audience member, I felt that my understanding of the story in the film was incomplete without knowing the ancient story that it was based on. After watching that film in the cinema, I came home and found the video "Why Cicero hated Caesar" -- that filled in the gap. There is a hidden backstory in "Megalopolis" about choosing the Old World Order which is supported by debt-based currency creation, or choosing a New World Order in which currency is created without owing interest. A "deus ex machina" (or in this story a "machina ex caelo") forces the choice. Cheers.
Hi Luke. I really enjoy your videos! Especially the linguistic ones - Latin and Ancient Greek. Excellent work through and through. I watched your video speaking with a Polish and Hungarian priest in perfect Latin the Vatican. I was curious, and I hope you do not mind the question, but are you a Catholic or Christian by any chance , or are you into the language for purely cultural, and academic reasons?
Besides interesting, this video made me realize a very big misconception I had until now. As a greek, with no particular interest in ancient greek, besides the mandatory classes in school, I never realized the Erasmian pronounciation was a thing, because in school we learn ancient greek (as it turns out) in a way that is closer to modern greek. So up until now everytime I heard someone pronounce double-vowels broken down (i.e. "πλίνθο-ις" or "εστεφάνωτα-ι" instead of "πλινθις" or "εστεφάνωτε") I would cringe. And if that person was an academic or something I would cringe even harder. Silly me
Could you do a video on the history of sound changes of omicron and epsilon? How open/closed were they? Does it change in different environments and time periods? In university I hear omicron pronounced as a very open /ɔ/ in so that λόγον sounds like logon and it gets on my nerves.
Have you seen the new recourse “ Zoe. Anthologia Graeca: Ζωὴ τῆς Ἡλλάδος” by Mario Diaz from Cultura Classica? It’s supposed to be another companion to Athenaze and Alexandros. Can you do a review of it?
But I have some questions about the ei in doric. The "pure" diphthong may have been carried through in some of the dialects, couldn't it? And the optative diphthong is a pure one (and one of the latest to be changed due to analogy).
Really nice video, can you make a video explaining how the minoans were Greek because there seems to be people that doubt or not know it. Aswell, for the eastern roman empire.
Great video. Could you possibly in the future analyze Ancient Greek in the latest Indiana Jones movie, where they meet *SPOILER* Archimedes and talk to him in AG. I would be really curious about the accuracy.
Well, she certainly sounds Greek... I wonder if it would be better if they got a VA from some of the Peloponnesian regions with dialects closing to the old Doric ones.
Right. Since she stressed the open syllable, she lengthened the vowel, which is obligatory in Modern Greek phonology. I may be more sensitive to this since I’m used to Italians having similar trouble, and also my experience with Japanese
As a greek it is very difficult for me to appreciate the accuracy in the pronuncuation because the voice actress has a modern greek accent. I dont know why, it just makes my ears cringe, similarly to when I hear a recording of my own voise.
Do you prefer the soft kinda modern Italian / kinda french accent with an american touch of Luke? Her pronunciation is way more believable for an ancient tongue
@@BrandonBoardman okay, how recent are we talking? In the one month old video of his called "Nicomachean Ethics (Aristotle)" he is still reading ει as a diphthong
Yes, that wonderful gentleman does great work, but misses the mark in quite a few areas. I do own some of his audiobooks and enjoy listening to them, but I always put them on 2x speed to make the mistakes less evident (and thus less distracting).
Stratakis acknowledges that ει is pronounced /e:/ because it comes from εε, but since he is a native Greek and modern Greek has five vowel qualities instead of the seven-vowel system of Classical Attic Greek, he has some difficulties distinguishing the quality of Attic ε from that of η, so he pronounces ει as a narrow diphthong and confuses it with the long diphthong ῃ.
7:20 The ei in teichos is a true diphthong, not a spurious one, like the ablaut toichos similar to leipo-elipon-leloipa. If we are to concede sigma as the dental fricative θ, we should also concede the diphthong. Doric did not develop long closed vowels, it only had η and ω, ie not the spurious ει and ου.
While τεῖχος has an *etymologically* true diphthong, all ει are monophthongized in Attic before the Classical Period, meaning that, indeed, even in τεῖχος this “diphthong” is de facto spurious. Since the vocabulary and pronunciation of this Gorgo are fundamentally Classical Attic, that is the standard by which I judge it. Note that no attempt to realize ου as a diphthong was made in with this Gorgo, because the coach who guided the pronunciation here was using an Erasmian model, which is inherently mistaken in this respect.
Brazilian here. I do hear an [o] at 26:09 when she says like 'hutos' You went at length about how it was an [u] in her pronunciation, but I can't help but disagree.
personally i think Pericles of Greece (Athens) in Civ 6 had the best pronunciation, Alexander of Greece (Macedon) also had a very impressive pronunciation, but he was lacking some crucial stuff, like the ''h'' before the word ''Ελλαδος''.
Ahahahaha. Naturally this is in the context of how Aristophanes created a caricature of Spartans in his plays. I’m sure the Spartans would have been annoyed too haha
Request: Do the horrible attempt at Greek and Latin for the awful sequel "Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny." Basically the only word of Latin spoken during the Siege Of Syracuse climax by one of the actors playing a Roman soldier, who botches it, and the actor playing Archimides mumbling his lines to hide his bad attempt at Ancient (not even Doric) pronunciation, with Indiana Jones responding in MODERN GREEK and Archimedes understanding him just because of plot convenience, lol.
Tbf, Archimedes spoke Doric, yes, but it was also 3rd century Doric, by that time all Greek dialects were very influenced by the koine, and it was also closer to modern Greek. People in that time were likely able to understand different dialects, and that's even more true for someone like Archimedes, so I don't think it's that unlikely that he would be able to understand most of what Indiana says to him in modern Greek. Also, I only watched it once but I vaguely recall that Indiana attempts to speak koine greek and it's just a few words anyway. And isn't Archimedes supposed to be trying to communicate in botched latin? Anyway, I think the intent was clearly to show how uneasy everyone was but still managed to somewhat communicate, which certainly should be taken into account. Even if the words aren't correct, the goal there was to show that difficult communication.
"Where is the city that has men instead of bricks surrounding (wreathed?) it?" Is that what she says? OK, I say forward in the video, so it's not a question, it's a statement. Yeah, Sparta didn't have walls.
I think there are more inconsistencies. Εντι is plural, isnt't it? Not much time to look up but you in doric (at least in Aristophanes) is τυ, τέος than may be a genitive, but I think is the masculine possessive.
1) Koine Greek was based on Attic Greek dialect, but inherited also aspects (p.ex. pronunciation) and some vocabulary from other dialects. For example, the loss of h-sound is an Ionic Greek aspect (a linguistic phemomenon that also happened in Romance languages and Cockney English dialect), while the word ΜΑΓEΙΡΟΣ (cook/butcher) is a Doric Greek cognate of Attic Greek word ΜΑΧΑΙΡΑ (knife/sword). 2) Standard modern Greek pronunciation is not the only pronunciation used by modern Greek speakers. For example: the word ΑΝΔΡΕΣ (=men) is usually pronounced as ANDRES in everyday spoken greek language. Also, the word ΠΡΟΚΟΙΛΙ (=fat belly) is often pronounced as PROΚIOULI in everyday spoken greek language. Other words have survived with a spelling reminding of their old pronunciation: for example the Koine Greek word KYTION became the modern greek word ΚΟΥΤΙ (=box). 3) When pronouncing a word is crucial not only to pronounce the phthongs correctly, but also to stress the word correctly. What is annoying for any modern Greek speaker is not to hear a different pronunciation for the letters, but to hear greek words stressed on the wrong syllable. For example KAI is not stressed on the first syllable, but on the second one. "Gorgo" tries hard to immitate a pronunciation but forgets to stress the right syllables of the words. It's like speaking French with a Quebecois accent, but stressing the words on the first syllables.
@@pawel198812 Nope. ΚΑΙ has one syllable and is never stressed in modern Greek. It is always stressed in polytonic Koine Greek and probably was a two syllable word at some time before the Hellenistic period. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/καί#Ancient_Greek
@@pawel198812 In the polytonic writing system it is always stessed on the iota. So it had been stressed for more than 2,000 years until the early 1980s, when the polytonic writing system was abolished. The word KAI has indeed one syllable for many centuries, but probably that was not the case in the early Antiquity. Ancient Greeks were not that masochists to add unneeded letters in the words.
@@theopavlos6113 Placing a diacritical mark on the second element of a digraph is a somewhat modern typographical convention. The rough breathing of the definite article or relative pronoun (αἱ, αἵ) is thus always printed above the iota, but everyone agrees it represents the pronunciation 'hai' rather than 'ahi). In medieval manuscripts you will most often find it written somewhere in the middle. Regardless, the written accent mark pertains to the diphthong as a whole, not just one element of it. It is likely that the word KAI was at some point disyllabic. The Wiktionary lists the Arcado-Cypriot cognate form ΚΑΣ and the noun κασίγνητος (sibling, lit. together/alongside-born). This would indicate an older form κασι which would have undergone the debuccalization and eventual loss of the intervocalic S (similarly to words like ει from older εσσι, ευ from εσυ etc.). When these older disyllabic forms became monosyllabic is hard to tell. My confidence about ΚΑΙ never being stressed comes from the fact that it is a monosyllabic function word, which in modern Greek (and in modern stress accent languages in general) never get stressed (unless they're followed by an enclitic). This is, admittedly, a conjecture on my part, and things might have sounded differently when Ancient Greek was still transitioning from a pitch accent to stress accent system
I’m just getting older. Also I had lifted some heavy weights before recording. Also jet-lagged. Mostly just getting older lol. It’s all downhill from here! Haha
An other funny video of the guy that pushes the idea that Greeks spoke closer to how drunken Australians sound or Irish, rather than actual middle-age or modern Greeks, actually, according to that guy, far from it :P it so funny and sad in the same time.
We've been all told - both by you and other sources, including on Wikipedia - that the shift from [pʰ tʰ kʰ b d g] to [ɸ θ x β ð ɣ] was gradual, but I remember reading on Wikipedia, that it all started with [g] shifting to [ɣ] around 400 BC, with the other shifts following later. Is there any truth to that?
The change didn't happen at the same time for all dialects. When he was talking about θ shifting earlier, that's only for Doric dialects; it did, indeed, happen much later for most other dialects
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Gorgo speaks Doric Greek in Civilization VI! But how is the Greek? Does she use an authentic reconstruction of the Spartan accent of the 5th century BC? I will review this and more as we explore the fascinating world of Ancient Greek from the other great city-state of Classical Antiquity: this is SPARTA.
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Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
0:00 Intro
0:44 First Line
9:11 Second Line
15:30 Third Line
18:43 Fourth Line
24:32 Fifth Line
29:11 Sixth Line
33:16 With your shield, or on it!
34:36 Seventh Line
39:31 Eighth Line
40:47 Summary & Conclusion
#gorgo #civilization6 #greek
An other funny video of the guy that pushes the idea that Greeks spoke closer to how drunken Australians sound or Irish, rather than actual middle-age or modern Greeks, actually, according to that guy, far from it :P it so funny and sad in the same time.
Luke as a native Greek and avid enjoyer of your videos, they seriously need to find you and start bringing you on for translation projects such as these for any movies or games with Latin and Ancient Greek, you would clean up so many inaccuracies and add an insane level of detail I don't think is anywhere else seen
She’s a Greek speaker 100%
Είναι αλήθεια.
@@polyMATHY_Luke or maybe Spanish
Yes she is
Wiki says she is
Probably from Athens.
Despite not knowing modern Greek and definitely not knowing my Attic from my elbow, this was one of the most interesting 40 minutes I've spent in a while. Cheers, Luke.
Thanks very much!
While other TH-camrs keep recycling the same boring content over and over Luke somehow never runs out of outstanding and extremely interesting content. Great stuff!
Thanks, Jason! More to come, and hopefully more interesting than this.
There are so many dialects you don't hear about often, like doric for me.
Sounds like an interesting culture.
Basically the majority of Greek dialects
Doric was the popular Greek dialect.
Idk why they teach us attic.
And the Doric was a subculture.
As a CIV gamer and amateur linguistics learner, it's THE video for my day!
Loves from China.
Luke should branch out into Classical Chinese next. Is there any Chinese dialogue in the Civ games?
I'd love to see a video on Cypriot greek or Arcadocypriot, they are so fascinating, i love them sm!!
Talk about "splitting hairs" 😂 te amamos Luke. Love from Terra Brasilis.
My request has finally come to fruition! Grātiās tibi agō!
It's been so difficult for me to learn about Doric online. I'd love to hear more about it from you!
Great content as usual.
Another thing "technically" wrong (on the writers side) is the fact that infinitives in Laconian Doric would be -ην not -εῖν due to the way it contracts ε + ε as seen even in dialectal inscriptions. Still a great effort to doricize in place of not bothering with it.
EDIT 1: Around 31:43 εως was ι(ϝ)ος in the third declension of Laconic For the shift from antevocalic ε to ι in Laconian, see Buck p. 20. Number 5
So my reconstruction instinct tells me it may be δυνάμι(ϝ)ος with the digamma containing being the "more" archaic form
@@jammehrmann1871 My thoughts exactly, but there were some Atticisms in the text and they probably wanted to have a mixed dialect for Gorgo.
Love to see modern reception of Doric Greek, and you snuck in a welcome dual!
I’m playing as Gorgo right now in Civ 6 and I thought I’d look up on TH-cam any documentaries about her you were the first vid that wasn’t directly about her in the game and tips and such.
I watched the entire vid and got nostalgic of the good old days of TH-cam when you would come across random weird niche shit like this all the time.
Great vid.
I think in the seventh line, the τοι is not an enclitic particle (like in Attic), but the Dative of 'τυ' "you", making the loose translation a more fitting 'And you will suffer in the same way'.
You know, I had originally considered that, but then dismissed it since the rest of the original text is filled with Atticisms. Moreover, τοι is just archaic for σοι in Attic, hence its meaning “ya know”. Still, I like your interpretation.
32:35-32:44 The reason for this sound change in Doric was undoubtedly because the σ before the δ was eventually aspirated and then dropped, obviously lengthening the δέλτα. Kind of like how Andalusian or Caribbean Spanish tends to aspirate or completely omit the s before stops (e.g. "eppañol" or "e(h)pañol" instead of "español," or "ettrrella" or "e(h)trella" instead of "estrella."
Great example
Exactly!
I LOVE when non-Attic/Koinē forms are represented. I am also STRESSED because I feel like my Attic is so lacking hahaha
Just today, I was speaking with a friend about a ninety-year-old he has known in Spetzes (ancient Ophiussa island), Greece, who claimed to have studied Doric at his (primary) school. I told him: "It would be almost impossible to teach Doric, even if someone really wanted to". Then, however, I told him that the only form of "Doric" that one could properly teach today is Tsakonian (modern Laconian): our speech going on, it emerged that this elder is not a native of Spetzes, but of Tyros (village of "Cheese", hehe!), in the middle of Tsakonia! So we concluded that the Doric he learned was certainly Tsakonian. Anyway, I was astounded to know that some schools of remote Tsakonia at the time taught this almost-extinct dialect.
P.S.: yes, of course Σπαρτιάτης is Σπαρτιάτας in Doric, as well as Ἑλλήνων is Ἑλλάνων, τρέστης is τρέστας (assuming this word exists in Doric), καρτερός is κρατερός, etc. Actually, τεος is attested as a Doric enclitic in stead of σου: it should then be "τιμά τεος". But it's clear that this is just very fine Doric-like flavour, as attested in Attic drama: otherwise intervocalic S should become H, and many other changes should occur: even Plutarch writes "Οὐκ ἂν εἴη ἀτείχιστος πόλις...", but true Doric modal particle is κα rather than ἄν.
P.P.S.: I ask again here, in case you did not read yesterday: Do you still use your FB account? I wrote to you a lot of time ago but I don't think you have read my message. Otherwise, how should I contact you? Thanks!
Ciao Riccardo! Scusa, lo uso proprio pochissimo, ma scrivimi tramite e-mail; così ci mettiamo d’accordo.
Grazie per il commento!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Va bene, grazie!
As a “Tsakonian-American” I’m glad to hear that tsakonian is taught. I plan on returning in the near future
@@logos3522 I don't know if it is still taught. This elder told my friend it was taught to him some 80-85 years ago. I wish you the best for your return and I'd like to hear from you again, when you find out what's the situation in Tsakonia now.
I'm happy to see another videogame language analysis
but I'm sad that you didn't do an age of mythology video
I asked it years ago and i didn't know they were going to remaster it, so they released the remaster last month so it's the best time to analyse the greek spoken in age of mythology
anyway, its not a big deal, I love your content
It would be great if someday you read in Greek philosophers like Parmenides, Heraclitus, Anaximander and Aristotle, since most people read their texts in Erasmian or Modern Greek pronunciation, it would be interesting to know how they probably pronounced their texts.
The Thucydides quote is from the siege of Melos. The Melians were neutral, and the Athenians offered no justification, simply offering the famous quote.
Nice video Luke!
Ευχαριστώ!
Hey Luke, have you ever analyzed Socrates’s language in “Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure”? That would be a hoot, I bet!
No one's gonna mention the banger shirt Luke's wearing?!
Thanks!
What are the odds that I check your channel and I see a new video dropped lol
What luck!
50% - either you see a video or you don't
Are you planning to take a look at Civ VI's Pericles as well? I've noticed that his voicelines seem to have vowel length and pitch accent, I'd be very interested in seeing how much of them is actually right.
Yes! Pericles is next
You can hear pure, extracted from game files (so no clicking or any other game sound), sayings of each leader on Fandom Civilization Wiki.
Oh nice! Thanks
Cool to see you also are a fan of the "ditch man", Roel!
The recent film "Megalopolis" by Francis Coppola uses some select phrase of Latin in the dialog and also Latin text on scrolling reader boards. I would be interested to listen to your translations of those phrases when they become available on media like Bluray that can be paused.
The story in the film "Megalopolis" is an allegory based on the Conspiracy of Lucius Sergius Catilina in 63 BCE. As an audience member, I felt that my understanding of the story in the film was incomplete without knowing the ancient story that it was based on. After watching that film in the cinema, I came home and found the video "Why Cicero hated Caesar" -- that filled in the gap. There is a hidden backstory in "Megalopolis" about choosing the Old World Order which is supported by debt-based currency creation, or choosing a New World Order in which currency is created without owing interest. A "deus ex machina" (or in this story a "machina ex caelo") forces the choice.
Cheers.
I like Grek alphabet
*_Γ Ο Ρ Γ Ω_*
I know you've done Theodara for Civ V, are you going to do Theodara from Civ VI or King Basil? 💬❤️
Hi Luke. I really enjoy your videos! Especially the linguistic ones - Latin and Ancient Greek. Excellent work through and through.
I watched your video speaking with a Polish and Hungarian priest in perfect Latin the Vatican. I was curious, and I hope you do not mind the question, but are you a Catholic or Christian by any chance , or are you into the language for purely cultural, and academic reasons?
Besides interesting, this video made me realize a very big misconception I had until now. As a greek, with no particular interest in ancient greek, besides the mandatory classes in school, I never realized the Erasmian pronounciation was a thing, because in school we learn ancient greek (as it turns out) in a way that is closer to modern greek.
So up until now everytime I heard someone pronounce double-vowels broken down (i.e. "πλίνθο-ις" or "εστεφάνωτα-ι" instead of "πλινθις" or "εστεφάνωτε") I would cringe. And if that person was an academic or something I would cringe even harder.
Silly me
Luke isn't using the Erasmian pronunciation, but the Classical Attic dialect, where ει is pronounced as a vowel in between ε and ι, but not εϊ.
Could you do a video on the history of sound changes of omicron and epsilon? How open/closed were they? Does it change in different environments and time periods? In university I hear omicron pronounced as a very open /ɔ/ in so that λόγον sounds like logon and it gets on my nerves.
Having Koine in school, very interesting video
Dangerous game for this video: Take a shot for every ει XD
Hahahahahaha
That's so hilarious! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Have you seen the new recourse “ Zoe. Anthologia Graeca: Ζωὴ τῆς Ἡλλάδος” by Mario Diaz from Cultura Classica? It’s supposed to be another companion to Athenaze and Alexandros. Can you do a review of it?
But I have some questions about the ei in doric. The "pure" diphthong may have been carried through in some of the dialects, couldn't it? And the optative diphthong is a pure one (and one of the latest to be changed due to analogy).
Really nice video, can you make a video explaining how the minoans were Greek because there seems to be people that doubt or not know it. Aswell, for the eastern roman empire.
Grazie!
Tip for a greek accent in english: pronounce your w's like "γου", because this is how they teach it in schools and how most greeks pronounce it.
Great video. Could you possibly in the future analyze Ancient Greek in the latest Indiana Jones movie, where they meet *SPOILER* Archimedes and talk to him in AG. I would be really curious about the accuracy.
I second this!
Do Basil II next
The last thing I expected was to see Dzidzio in a Polymathy video hahahahah
I really love that song lol. 🔱
Listen to the Tsakonian dialect of eastern Peloponnese which is direct descendant of Doric and compare.
Well, she certainly sounds Greek... I wonder if it would be better if they got a VA from some of the Peloponnesian regions with dialects closing to the old Doric ones.
Hate to break the immersion but there is no more left (atleast when excluding Tsakonian) of the old ancient dialects, very sadly.
@@jammehrmann1871 Tsakonian is what I primarily had in mind. Am old acquaintance of mine used to speak it.
10:05
Well, Gorgo is Spartan. She speaks in a Doric dialect.
Exspectābam tē dē Gorgōne Pericleque pelliculam esse factūrum. Optimē!
Periclēs sequētur!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Optimē fāris!
Tsakonian dialect is the closest one to the ancient doric greek its stiil spoken here in pelloponesse to the tsakonian area
Hey love your videos! Can you come to Greece and try to speak to greeks in ancient greek just like you did in Italy?
Ναι μάλιστα! Ἐν νῷ γὰρ ἔχω οὕτως ποιῆσαι.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ανυπομονώ φίλε μου! Να είσαι πάντα καλά και να μοιράζεις γνώση στον κόσμο!
39:32 I heard [apo'leloipe], not [apo'le:loipe].
Right. Since she stressed the open syllable, she lengthened the vowel, which is obligatory in Modern Greek phonology. I may be more sensitive to this since I’m used to Italians having similar trouble, and also my experience with Japanese
How is Ancient Greek pronounced in Greece today? Is it the same pronunciation as modern greek and since when did they do it like this?
It's mostly the modern pronunciation.
A little different. The modern pronunciation sounds more cute than this
I hope we bring back the ancient Greek.
As a greek it is very difficult for me to appreciate the accuracy in the pronuncuation because the voice actress has a modern greek accent. I dont know why, it just makes my ears cringe, similarly to when I hear a recording of my own voise.
completely understand. Ambiorix is a little cringey for me (I'm French), because he clearly has a french accent
Do you prefer the soft kinda modern Italian / kinda french accent with an american touch of Luke? Her pronunciation is way more believable for an ancient tongue
Can you do something similar for Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey? Also, Greek is spoken in Assassin's Creed Mirage, Revelations etc.
In Odyssey all the Greek lines are spoken with a purely modern Greek accent.
But Luke, with all due respect, what do you think of the maestro from the channel Podium-arts pronouncing ει as a diphthong?
@@BrandonBoardman okay, how recent are we talking? In the one month old video of his called "Nicomachean Ethics (Aristotle)" he is still reading ει as a diphthong
@@BrandonBoardman Moreover, in the latest video there is he does it as well
Yes, that wonderful gentleman does great work, but misses the mark in quite a few areas. I do own some of his audiobooks and enjoy listening to them, but I always put them on 2x speed to make the mistakes less evident (and thus less distracting).
His use of the diphthong "ei" for ει is probably fine for some words in Homeric Greek, but not for Classical Attic Greek.
Stratakis acknowledges that ει is pronounced /e:/ because it comes from εε, but since he is a native Greek and modern Greek has five vowel qualities instead of the seven-vowel system of Classical Attic Greek, he has some difficulties distinguishing the quality of Attic ε from that of η, so he pronounces ει as a narrow diphthong and confuses it with the long diphthong ῃ.
7:20 The ei in teichos is a true diphthong, not a spurious one, like the ablaut toichos similar to leipo-elipon-leloipa.
If we are to concede sigma as the dental fricative θ, we should also concede the diphthong.
Doric did not develop long closed vowels, it only had η and ω, ie not the spurious ει and ου.
I understand what you mean concerning the ablauts in ancient Greek, but I still think it sounds too much like the Erasmian pronunciation.
While τεῖχος has an *etymologically* true diphthong, all ει are monophthongized in Attic before the Classical Period, meaning that, indeed, even in τεῖχος this “diphthong” is de facto spurious. Since the vocabulary and pronunciation of this Gorgo are fundamentally Classical Attic, that is the standard by which I judge it. Note that no attempt to realize ου as a diphthong was made in with this Gorgo, because the coach who guided the pronunciation here was using an Erasmian model, which is inherently mistaken in this respect.
Brazilian here. I do hear an [o] at 26:09 when she says like 'hutos'
You went at length about how it was an [u] in her pronunciation, but I can't help but disagree.
No. It was an [u]. She is a native Greek, so she normally pronounces ου as [u].
Now do Pericles for the Attic pronunciation
I will!
btw i think in doric ''god'' was also sometimes ''σεος'' /''σηος'' and not always ''σιος''.
Should it rather be των Ελλανων? With “a” instead of “e”.
If going for Doric greek yes
If she is not A Basileia, would she instead be A Despoina? What would her title have been?
What is "this is Sparta!" In greek?
In ancient Greek spoken in and around Sparta probably: "ἁυτᾱ ἐστί Σπάρτᾱ!!!!" (Transcribed: hautā estí Spártā!!!!)
In Doric Greek it's "Ἅυτᾱ ἐντί Σπάρτᾱ!"
At least they didn't hire a Scot to represent Doric :)
personally i think Pericles of Greece (Athens) in Civ 6 had the best pronunciation, Alexander of Greece (Macedon) also had a very impressive pronunciation, but he was lacking some crucial stuff, like the ''h'' before the word ''Ελλαδος''.
κοινή also in ancient greece do not content any ooooo in the spelling it is only iiiii
What makes you believe she needed to be given a text written by some convention? Couldn't she just have been taught?
36:50 - She would have Ντουνατά, not Nδουνατά because Ν and Δ don’t go together especially at the start of a word
Ah that’s right
As a French speaker I advise you to never use that French accent in the company of French people
Ahahahaha. Naturally this is in the context of how Aristophanes created a caricature of Spartans in his plays. I’m sure the Spartans would have been annoyed too haha
Request: Do the horrible attempt at Greek and Latin for the awful sequel "Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny."
Basically the only word of Latin spoken during the Siege Of Syracuse climax by one of the actors playing a Roman soldier, who botches it, and the actor playing Archimides mumbling his lines to hide his bad attempt at Ancient (not even Doric) pronunciation, with Indiana Jones responding in MODERN GREEK and Archimedes understanding him just because of plot convenience, lol.
Tbf, Archimedes spoke Doric, yes, but it was also 3rd century Doric, by that time all Greek dialects were very influenced by the koine, and it was also closer to modern Greek. People in that time were likely able to understand different dialects, and that's even more true for someone like Archimedes, so I don't think it's that unlikely that he would be able to understand most of what Indiana says to him in modern Greek. Also, I only watched it once but I vaguely recall that Indiana attempts to speak koine greek and it's just a few words anyway. And isn't Archimedes supposed to be trying to communicate in botched latin?
Anyway, I think the intent was clearly to show how uneasy everyone was but still managed to somewhat communicate, which certainly should be taken into account. Even if the words aren't correct, the goal there was to show that difficult communication.
"Where is the city that has men instead of bricks surrounding (wreathed?) it?" Is that what she says? OK, I say forward in the video, so it's not a question, it's a statement. Yeah, Sparta didn't have walls.
she sound like native greek speaker for sure, may be ai though.
This game was made before AI voices could do this.
Wait? some actually competent voice lines?
I think there are more inconsistencies. Εντι is plural, isnt't it? Not much time to look up but you in doric (at least in Aristophanes) is τυ, τέος than may be a genitive, but I think is the masculine possessive.
ἐντί is listed as both third person singular and plural: logeion.uchicago.edu/εἰμί
I find this odd, but it may be true.
1) Koine Greek was based on Attic Greek dialect, but inherited also aspects (p.ex. pronunciation) and some vocabulary from other dialects. For example, the loss of h-sound is an Ionic Greek aspect (a linguistic phemomenon that also happened in Romance languages and Cockney English dialect), while the word ΜΑΓEΙΡΟΣ (cook/butcher) is a Doric Greek cognate of Attic Greek word ΜΑΧΑΙΡΑ (knife/sword).
2) Standard modern Greek pronunciation is not the only pronunciation used by modern Greek speakers. For example: the word ΑΝΔΡΕΣ (=men) is usually pronounced as ANDRES in everyday spoken greek language. Also, the word ΠΡΟΚΟΙΛΙ (=fat belly) is often pronounced as PROΚIOULI in everyday spoken greek language. Other words have survived with a spelling reminding of their old pronunciation: for example the Koine Greek word KYTION became the modern greek word ΚΟΥΤΙ (=box).
3) When pronouncing a word is crucial not only to pronounce the phthongs correctly, but also to stress the word correctly. What is annoying for any modern Greek speaker is not to hear a different pronunciation for the letters, but to hear greek words stressed on the wrong syllable. For example KAI is not stressed on the first syllable, but on the second one. "Gorgo" tries hard to immitate a pronunciation but forgets to stress the right syllables of the words. It's like speaking French with a Quebecois accent, but stressing the words on the first syllables.
και has only one syllable, and is usually never stressed anyway
@@pawel198812 Nope. ΚΑΙ has one syllable and is never stressed in modern Greek.
It is always stressed in polytonic Koine Greek and probably was a two syllable word at some time before the Hellenistic period.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/καί#Ancient_Greek
"Kai" without a diaresis has only one syllable? It cannot possibly be stressed in the second syllable because it doesn't have one...
@@pawel198812 In the polytonic writing system it is always stessed on the iota. So it had been stressed for more than 2,000 years until the early 1980s, when the polytonic writing system was abolished.
The word KAI has indeed one syllable for many centuries, but probably that was not the case in the early Antiquity. Ancient Greeks were not that masochists to add unneeded letters in the words.
@@theopavlos6113 Placing a diacritical mark on the second element of a digraph is a somewhat modern typographical convention. The rough breathing of the definite article or relative pronoun (αἱ, αἵ) is thus always printed above the iota, but everyone agrees it represents the pronunciation 'hai' rather than 'ahi). In medieval manuscripts you will most often find it written somewhere in the middle. Regardless, the written accent mark pertains to the diphthong as a whole, not just one element of it.
It is likely that the word KAI was at some point disyllabic. The Wiktionary lists the Arcado-Cypriot cognate form ΚΑΣ and the noun κασίγνητος (sibling, lit. together/alongside-born). This would indicate an older form κασι which would have undergone the debuccalization and eventual loss of the intervocalic S (similarly to words like ει from older εσσι, ευ from εσυ etc.). When these older disyllabic forms became monosyllabic is hard to tell.
My confidence about ΚΑΙ never being stressed comes from the fact that it is a monosyllabic function word, which in modern Greek (and in modern stress accent languages in general) never get stressed (unless they're followed by an enclitic). This is, admittedly, a conjecture on my part, and things might have sounded differently when Ancient Greek was still transitioning from a pitch accent to stress accent system
Great video Luke, you look very tired though
I’m just getting older.
Also I had lifted some heavy weights before recording. Also jet-lagged.
Mostly just getting older lol. It’s all downhill from here! Haha
Equidem semper cēnsēbam eam "τίς εἶ σύ" ut /tis i si/ magis quam "τίς ἐσσί" dīxisse. Ego tamen minimē perītus linguae graecae sum.
❤❤
How do we know the ancients pronounced dysyllabes like ai, as its written? It sounds so weird.
These videos explain in detail: th-cam.com/play/PLQQL5IeNgck0hFZ5oEfTV1Zhp_xksAgCz.html&si=B2zlhFpDoGsoJ5c0
How tf does anyone know what Dorians sounded like
See the videos of mine I reference in the video, and you’ll learn how we know this.
Inscriptions, Attestations within other works and even names
@@polyMATHY_Luke Will do, and ty
An other funny video of the guy that pushes the idea that Greeks spoke closer to how drunken Australians sound or Irish, rather than actual middle-age or modern Greeks, actually, according to that guy, far from it :P it so funny and sad in the same time.
KANE LIVES! PEACE THROUGH POWER!
Because he's bald? 🙄
it's all greek to moi.
It's all Greek to me...
But its not incorrect. There are variations in english from what dide of town you from. So how can you say its wrong?
See my plethora of videos (cited in this video) where I answer this question in detail
Does Harald in civ speak old norse?
We've been all told - both by you and other sources, including on Wikipedia - that the shift from [pʰ tʰ kʰ b d g] to [ɸ θ x β ð ɣ] was gradual, but I remember reading on Wikipedia, that it all started with [g] shifting to [ɣ] around 400 BC, with the other shifts following later. Is there any truth to that?
No. β, δ, and γ retained the older pronunciation for centuries until the later Koiné period.
The change didn't happen at the same time for all dialects.
When he was talking about θ shifting earlier, that's only for Doric dialects; it did, indeed, happen much later for most other dialects