ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- It's been a couple years. In that time I've completed several challenge runs and more than tripled my play time. I think all of that offered a lot more perspective on rating the heroes. Placements could possibly change if I played for another 1000 hours, but I think this is a good end point.
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► Playlist: • Darkest Dungeon Tier L...
0:00 Intro
2:08 Abomination
3:42 Antiquarian
5:27 Arbalest
8:00 Bounty Hunter
8:39 Crusader
11:52 Flagellant
15:00 Grave Robber
17:41 Hellion
20:40 Highwayman
24:47 Houndmaster
26:23 Jester
28:38 Leper
34:30 Man-at-Arms
38:40 Occultist
42:05 Musketeer
43:29 Plague Doctor
47:41 Shieldbreaker
51:30 Vestal - เกม
All the reasons you said that Crusader is S tier are also the reasons why quad crusader literally just solves the entire video game of Darkest Dungeon. There is almost no situation where four crusaders isn't going to be a really good team, assuming you build them properly, of course. It's insane.
*cough* Countess *cough*
Gets easier later in the game but I agree
@@ExtremeMan10 *cough* holy lances *cough*
@@ExtremeMan10 Countess in general just sounds crazy, i haven't fought her yet but ive heard what she's like and man, idk if i have the courage to do that boss fight despite it being like the last fight i have to do
@@phiwvey I just did it for the first time the other day, 4 went in, 2 came out. I found out I played the fight wrong but yeah she's a hell of a boss fight for sure
When's 7/3 (final part 2: Electric boogaloo)
Lmao take my like
Please?
Please please please
چچپ
7/3 attack on titan edition
Dismas isn’t S tier? Sorry you’re gonna have to make another tier list
yeah man, that's some bullshit right there
I just got Dismas to level 5. He is my dawg
It is now the sworn duty of us abomination lovers to force you to make a part 7.
We will die on this hill if we must, or ascend like our arbalest and leper loving brothers.
I'm on board. He has been unstoppable in my current (First) Playthrough.
We will show Abomination's Glory to the world!
I'd sua he is at least better than arbelist, grave robber. Bounty hunter., antiquarian and man at arms. He is weaker in the start of the game and gets more and more strong as you diversify your roster, gain trinkets, etc.
His CoM trinket is nutzo. I've doubled stunned the tree giants regularly in the weald.
just got done playing through the darkest difficulty, got each class to legend and got all their class specific trinkets and abomination was by far my most used class and highest damage dealer while also being the most versatile. it's actually insane to think anyone would rank abomination anything besides s tier.
@@esoteric404Abom can absolutely be a wrecking force, but it's also a stress machine which SUCKS in some parts of the game (and especially Crimson Court unless you're bailing out specifically to bring out Abom against bosses only), it has accuracy issues, not so great trinkets, and it's a rather limited class in that it can only really be a damage dealer or a blight/stun bot, with both of them having positioning restrictions.
It's definitely a usable class, all of them are, but compared to the sheer amount of stuff something like Crusader can do it's just not the same. Crusader can deal damage, mega tank, heal, stress heal, can be played on every position, can stun, can raise torch, also has great camp effects compared to Abom.
Man, highwayman not S tier, feelsbadman
Crusader honestly feels like they go virtuous way more often than afflict than other characters seem to
Because desires and fear are for infidels.
@@ExtremeMan10 And regret is a sin.
Also transformed Abom. I had more virtue than affliction from Abom
I had a hellion go virtuous like 5 times in a row once. Crazy.
@@OrangeJuice-jv9xu I had a jester go 6.
honestly, the fact that almost 6 years after the game came out you can make part 6/3 and not repeat yourself is a testament to how cleverly balanced the characters are
All my Bias here but MAA will always be S tier. That dude single handedly saved my Bloodmoon run. I always looked at him as a filler tank but now he’s my heart and joy.
Literally my favorite class. I recruit them every time I see them if they don’t have super negative quirks
On the occultist vs vestal healing argument: The important question should not be how much healing they do on average, but how often you get at least as much healing as you need. Since you can't outheal enemy damage, usually you're either going to use healing to top your heroes off at the end of a fight, or using it as a panic button to get someone off of death's door. In the first case the highrolls can be ignored, since they just cause more overkill and in the second case inconsistency can cause deaths. The only situation i see where the average healing is the biggest factor is if the target is on low HP, but not in any immediate danger.
I find Vestal's aoe heal to be more situationally useful
Occultist is an off healer at best. His best function is enabling an aggressive play style by the rest of the team. The best healer in the game is Flagellant.
That's a tricky situation. I see what you mean by saying that better average healing is a factor only if target has low health, but not in immediate danger. At the same token though, Which would you prefer in a dangerous situation? I see valid arguments for both. Vestal healing can be boosted enough to be quite substantial, and it sucks when the occultist heals low (or zero with bleed). On the other hand, Few things are more satisfying than when an Occultist explodes on that healing number!
Also, Occultists have VERY high crit, which I believe aids Wyrd Reconstruction too!
It's unfortunately exactly like average dice rolls. Two six sided die roll on average 7. Occultist at max level does 0 - 22 heal roll. So he heals on average for 11. Without bleed he heals for more than vestal, with bleed he heals for less, but I guess if you have bandages or plague doctor's heal it cancels out the bleed effect.
And then yeah, it's not just about numbers but also the situation, so healing someone at death's door with wyrd reconstruction isn't the best idea.
Hearing you talk about the again Crusader got me thinking:
Hes ready for anything, but has to respond to everything.
It sucks though people hold up the weakness to say the character is bad. He has weaknesses by design, hes a tank after all, not a DPS.
Gotta love logic of people like that.
They say Crusader is holy DPS and slowest in the game. But meanwhile same people take flagellant into the RUINS or take occultist into the warrens where he cant do anything apart from crowd control or healing (champion).
There is reason why Crusader is one of the most feared classes in Butcher Circus, that guy can be insanely good in any situation.
I think a lot of it is people shitting on him because he's easy and basic. Well, he's literally the tutorial character so yeah, duh. Not everyone needs to fit into a 4 turn dance routine with a double-axel spin-a-rooni.
Laughs in 4 man crusader runs with holy lance
@@fortheloveofking Funnily enough, Crusader actually would do great in a 4 turn dance routine!
He can (stress)heal from any position and his strongest skill moves him forward. His low speed also makes him rather reliable for turn orders.
What tripped me up is that for the longest time i tried playing him as some sort of tank with stun in rank one, which there clearly is faster and more reliable candidates for.
He actually has really good DPS if he starts at the back. What's interesting about crusader is that he can start at the back, wipe out the enemy backline with holy lance, get to the front and then start stunning the enemy and healing teammates. If you play him right, his role actually switches halfway through the fight where he goes from backline DPS to a frontline tank/support and he's great at both roles.
As a complete and utter noob I took Jestal to every dungeon. Of all the DD players I watched none ever game me a compelling reason to change that. Then I watch Shuffle and he lets me know that playstyle is fine, but it's an entirely defensive and I could play more aggressively if I wanted to. It opened up my DD experience and I greatly appreciate that. (I'm still a Jestal simp but I'm seeking therapy for that so it's going to be ok)
Until you play Endless, then you'll go back to Jestal. It's not a defensive style, more like smart and reliable supports. The problem with this tier list is that it isn't focused on anything . I mean SB is an absolute SS tier in endless mode.
The Jestal is a FINE class to simp to! While Hellion and Vestal are awesome, it annoys me when people use them too much. But still, to each their own! :)
Check out how to play Crusader support, he can do job of Jester and Vestal at the same time, while being only one character WHILE being tanky as check.
Crusaider support build is the best thing you can try out.
@@patrykrys3153 Holy smokes you're right! Thank you for the suggestion.
I would strongly encourage you to lean more heavily on building a level 5-6 Abom around his insane damage output in beast mode. With the +25% damage buff for 3 turns from the Transform skill at level 5, Abom's Rage has nearly identical damage, accuracy, and crit chance to a Chop from Leper-with-a-Focus-Ring, and is one of the highest speed heroes in the game even before the absurd +5 additional speed after transforming. Abom walks into a scary fight, trades a tame stress-cleave for throwing overstatted bricks of damage at anything up to rank 3 at unfairly high speed until he reverts to being a fair damage dealer on turn 4, and transforms back into a self-healing stunner when its time to stall. Abom walks into an easy fight and doesn't have to transform at all.
I will absolutely say that low level Abom absolutely gets outclassed by being a narrow generalist with mediocre numbers and significant drawbacks, but it's hard to overstate how crazy it is that a character with solidly-above-average damage and speed gets a button that gives 2 trinkets worth of stats for 3 turns with the only tempo drawback being a stress cost that can be undone by squeezing in an extra couple of stress heals after a fight is under control.
The problem with transform isn't stress he gets, it's stress party gets. For long dungeons it'll stack up pretty quickly if you have to transform in every second fight (on average), or you'd have to spend a turn doing aoe stress heal. It has tendecy to snowball difficult situation even more. Sure, if you take out enemy stress dealers without them stressing his party stress is neglibile. But if for whatever reason things spiral out of control his party stress will contribute to this.
Transform is great for boss killing, especially when he has nobody to stun or blight cleave, but you have to get him there - with equipment for transform, not stun utility. It's really difficult to equip him for both forms (maybe broken key + lock of fury/ancestor's candle serves well for both, but that's a long road to farmstead before actually utilising this playstyle), so whatever form you're not equiped to is underperforming.
I seldom have issues with stress at max torchlight whenever I have Houndmaster, Crusader, Jester, or Flagellant on a team because I stall fights against easy enemies for extra stress healing.
You don't need to equip Abom for both forms (unless you have Broken Key, which makes equipping for both forms effortless lol). You (usually) have to decide what role he's going to fill on your team and whether you have trinkets that justify having him in that role instead of another hero.
Champion Abom happens to naturally be extremely good at dealing damage, so equipping him like a melee damage nuke with accuracy, crit, and damage trinkets for any fight that won't be easy with human form is the easiest way to make him stand out from other heroes in a common campaign setting. If Abom is your damage dealer, its his job to get through the front half of tough fights as quickly as possible, and he should only be in human form in low-threat situations where he doesn't need to drop a nuclear bomb on anything and mediocre stuns are more than enough to keep things under control.
Once you have Broken Key, you have the option of leaning extra hard into being a stun machine that locks down single dangerous enemies for multiple turns in a row. If you're going to stunlock something, you should have other damage dealers that are responsible for picking off enemies while Abom prevents the extra dangerous and hard-to-kill enemy from doing dangerous things, and stressing your party out to throw a punch instead of stunning something will generally be bad.
Broken Key happens to be statted well enough to be worthwhile as a damage item on beast Abom, which encourages him to revert back to human form after killing most enemies so that he can shut down the last remaining threat.
Abom can definitely do some cool things and has good stats, which is why I made sure to say that no one is bad or unusable. I personally don't like the tempo tax of transformation, even if it is simple enough to mitigate. Between the stuns and transform damage bump though he has a lot going for him.
M-A-A (buff/debuff/prot) > Jester/Houndmaster (stress heal) > Abom (Human) > Abom (Transform) is super fun to play!
@@bringmecaretakers Lmao, gotta give it a try, seems so bad
It's funny that as you were talking about Occultist, I had one in my team that did a 1 HP heal one turn, then a 32 crit heal the next.
Occultist is an agent of chaos
"Final verdict" cannot wait for the final final verdict
Srsly doe, thanks for existing, this is the YT channel I come to whenever I crave DD content on YT
How often do you have multiple people on death's door?
Brigand Pounder *Looks away and begins whistling*
One of the single scariest moments in this game is missing the matchman.
@@ShuffleFM I did champion Pounder the other day and lost my Grave Robber to grapeshot because she missed a 95% on the 1 hp matchmen. *sadge*
Part 7 could be a breakdown of that A tier into more tiers. It got pretty busy with lots of characters.
The only thing I disagree with is occultist. Even though the 0 heal bleed on deaths door is enough to give someone an irl resolve check, crit chance through the roof makes his stuns the best in the game, AND he can stress heal with all those crits. Bottom of S rank sure, but he's just too powerful.
Occultist's damage always surprises me in the cove too. The eldritch bonus + crazy crit modifiers means he can almost be a damage dealer on the team even just running Sacrifical stab+hands from the abyss
irl resolve check, nice one XD
If he had a bit more base accuracy and some better defenses I'd agree. He's right there.
Multiple low heals in a row can be lethal and it happens too often imo
Something else to be said for Occultists low heal is that of the 4 S-Tier characters, which you probably want to bring to missions as much as possible, 2 have a reliable way to get people off DD and 1 has a guard.
All six parts of the Tier List Stones have been obtained. May the universe know naught but fear.
I've recently returned to DD for another shot at Stygian, gotta say your list is incredibly insightful, you're mentioning stuff i'd never even consider running and really going in depth on its the mechanics.
Keep up the good work B)
21:45 i mean technically the shrieker fight can be won by waiting till it runs away, if thats what youre into i guess lol
The fact that you don't need to kill shrieker to get your lost trinkets back is actually quite valuable.
one of the few situations in which the Man at Arms is S-Tier is against bosses that have attacks like Vvulf's bombs, others take like 30 damage from the bombs, but if you build him correctly he takes 5 damage at most
I have a completely different reason for complaining about the leper. The whole point of the character is to break stuff in the front row and he doesn't even do that well since front row enemies have high PROC negating the high damage that he would do. Armor piercing would fix this but he doesn't have that. You need a set up where a back line enemy is pulled forward for him to actually do the damage he is supposed to be doing. Sucks cause I really like the leper. I love his self sufficiency, and like you said the issue with ACC is really a non issue with trinkets. They could have easily fixed this problem by giving him a trinket that gives armor piercing. Armor piercing in one slot, ACC increase in the other.
My boy Abom better be S tier...
Edit: Bloody hell, Shuff :D
Every time I come back to this game I watch some of your videos. Its been great watching your channel blow up over the years!
personally, only crusader and houndmaster deserve the S, can do most thing optimally from anywhere, plague doctor and hellion still need to be on their most optimal position to work optimally, and this is not just because you can get surprised or the enemy can shuffle you, but also because it affect team building, the first 10 week is one of the hardest part of the game, and if you get like bunch of hellion and plague doctor, you most likely will struggle, but since literally every single team would appreciate crusader or houndmaster, i think its fair to say that those two are the true S tier heroes
The S rating doesn’t mean perfect. It just means ‘best’. Crusader does have a best position based on the skills chosen as well as the role he’s been chosen to play. Houndmaster is positionally dependent based on his skills. In position 1 he can’t use his main damaging ability.
The purpose of me responding to you isn’t to say you’re wrong, but to give a different perspective. Take care.
I recently started replaying Darkest Dungeon and wanted a more in depth analysis of all heroes and strategies since I have gone through the newbie parts already. I love your content and analysis on Darkest Dungeon stuff Shuffle!
Glad you enjoy it :)
Grave Robber - S tier character in our hearts.
Bet she's a freak too.
34:27 There are multiple axis on which to judge how bad a hero is when out of position. The most practical way to assess how a character performs when out of position is by considering what you expect them to do when they are moved by an anticipated amount based on known enemy skills, how often you can justify using their limited skill set in those positions, and how long it takes to walk them back into a useful position if you can't justify using those skills. It's a nuanced problem.
Just to establish the general landscape of enemy move skills: Cultist Witch will commonly appear in all dungeons, and will regularly pull backline heroes 2 spaces forward out of position, and push frontline heroes backwards the same amount. Enemies that knockback 1 space are extremely common in every area except the Cove, where the sword fish frequently pull 1 space instead. In Veteran dungeons, size 2 enemies in the Weald, Warrens and Cove have devastating move skills and are dangerous enough to seriously punish loss of tempo. Giant will shuffle the entire party, and Swinetaur and Uca Crab will push positions 1 and 2 all the way to position 4. Swine Skiver in Champion Warrens knocks heroes in positions 1, 2, and 3 back to rank 4.
With this context, it is absolutely fair to say Leper's positional weaknesses are more punishing than those of other characters. Leper has no skills that help end fights when he's in both positions 3 and 4. Leper can only correct his own position by walking one space at a time. Heroes in positions 1 and 2 are more regularly put far out of position than heroes in positions 3 and 4. Every other positionally restricted hero in the game is less disadvantaged by these conditions than Leper in at least one of these regards. Leper can use Withstand proactively against Swinetaur and Uca Crab to mitigate the chances of being thrown into position 4 and get lots of incidental value from the other resistances, so he is still a viable and versatile character regardless of this weakness, but he solves the problem less elegantly than other heroes do, and the situations where you do end up with Leper out of position are significantly worse than the situations where other heroes are comparably out of position.
Doesn't Leper have really good move resist though?
@@thermophile1695 Significantly better than other heroes, yes, but not enough to ignore the consequences of letting him get moved
An Hippocratic Crusader is a blessing. Not only does he have an omni position heal, he's a tank stress healer and God knows, he saved me a run that could've gone horribly bad after a terrible shambler encounter. His camp skills are also a blessing when you want to clear stress right before coming back to the hamlet. He really is a staple of my DD meta and truly deserves an S tier. Plus, Reynauld is the one who I first got a virtue on and it was epic, so yeah. S tier Baby, and Deus Vult.
Crusader is H O L Y L A N C E. of he didn't have this marvelous button, he'd be much less fun and flexible.
I thought for a long time that holy lance was only situational/a meme and thought Crusader was a bad character and frontliner.
I stand corrected.
Highway man is always S tier to me. I don't know why but when things are not going well he is like always that dude who dodges certain death then nails crits. Everyone else messes up, Highway man steps up
With this knowledge I think I've discovered the best team ever conceived in Darkest Dungeon.
Three Hellions and a Crusader in the back. Hellions kill everything while Crusader does the Orange Justice in the back. Every time they camp they all hit Revel and disco into a surprise round.
Game over can't lose GG
I know this comment is a month old but it killed me. Laughed for 5 minutes straight.
Crusader is so god damn versatile, and fits into almost any team comp. Surprised to hear you got pushback for him being high rank in the past. EDIT: Loot pool dilution is a valid reason to put musketeer in a lower rank. She lowers the chance at character progression and definitely does not deserve A as long as Antiquarian is in a high rank for very similar reasons/logic.
Great review - I came just to see your tiers, but I came away getting even more from how you described each hero's strengths and weaknesses and situational use cases. I have way less experience and have not sought out the challenges that you have, but it almost feels validating that between my first and second playthroughs how much my perspective evolved in similar ways, e.g.
Flagellant and Leper went from exile to fun & satisfying once I understood how to use them,
Shieldbreaker is an awesome but taxing luxury that pays off mostly when the game is basically already won,
Crusader rose from B to S once I stopped expecting him to be an armored Hellion,
Abomination went from my early fave to (imho) not worth the stress,
Jester is surprisingly tedious if valuable for farmstead runs,
Highway man is strong but has lackluster squad synergy, and
Grave Robber is my favorite but a bit too dependent on crits
Of course, I learned a lot from this video that makes my want to try a third playthrough of this path of pain
Thanks for all the work this list represents
Hey man. Just wanted to say I really like your work. I like that you do longform videos that aren't well scripted or well rehearsed. It took me a while to understand what exactly it was, but... It's like watching a cook going through the thought process of creating a good stew (I used to be a cook).
I don't know if you're familiar with LegendOfTotalWar or Lindybiege, they do the same thing more or less: Turn on the Camera/Mic and start going ham on the topic.
Also watching the tier list and it's revisions was quite fun because you proved that you're open minded enough to revise your position.
This is just a little thanks for the entertainment you offer.
Thank you for the kind words. Being a cook sounds fun, but stressful I'm sure. I'll take a peek at the recommendations since I haven't heard of them before :)
about grave robber: damage exists on a few axis: how often it happens (every turn vs every other turn), how it changes (dot ramps up hypothetically, hellion kinda ramps down). the range of damage values. the accuracy. id apply this with a reference to how guns are modded in warframe but i'm it would probably miss. anyway point is that grave robber's damage is always ready. it's always there. you will never not be able to hit a button for damage (damage in every position). and she's not inaccurate. you don't expect a miss (she's not a leper) but it's variable (12-14 as you said) and for it to be great damage it does require setup (shadowfade)
she has 100% uptime of damage, but not 100% damage uptime. there is always some damage. but there is not always all of her damage
*clicks Impale*
"Set you up, sweetie"
Definitely think that antiquarian drops a tier late game. Her gimmick of getting extra money doesn’t matter in the endgame at all, because the amount of money you’re getting from the bank interest outpaces most other sources of income. She’s a great support character, but in my opinion she isn’t better than abomination because
1: she has overall worse stats (except dodge of course)
2: she needs help to survive fights a lot more than Abom does, absolution goes a long way
I agree with your analysis. The only thing I would add is that late game she gets better at combat by having more access to trinkets and having better stats on her abilities. Dodge teams aren't a thing at apprentice but you can certainly make them at champion.
@@ShuffleFM that’s true, she power creeps for different things depending on the stage of the game, I think I just prefer overwhelming force over dodge (I regularly use legendary bracer on several classes).
Her ability is diminished in the beginning, not the end. I used to be in the same boat you’re in, but after forcing myself to use antiquarian I realized that she’s a situational powerhouse. ‘Protect Me’ is really amazing with riposte or Flagellant & flash powder can be game changing against the big hitters of champion. Her effectiveness is very team dependent.
56:53 "Relatable, consistent" i heard it with the Ancestor's voice
I'd agree that Crusader is S-tier. Between battles you can entirely switch his role from a moderate stress-healer and torch generator, to healer, to stunner, to raw DPS- extremely good. I also love the creativity with the Non-Euclidean Hilt, because you can make a Zealous-Accusation Build with it, or use the bonus stun skill chance for an extreme stun build. One of my favorite characters.
Or use a 4 man crus with holy lance and win the game on any difficulty lol
I have to say of all the ways to play Crusader, i never really got stun to work out that great for myself.
That's also the first way i tried playing him (apart from ruins frontline damage) and what made me not like him as a character for a long time.
I'll be honest, everything you said about jester makes him an S tier. If the only thing you can say about a character is: "he's not mandatory" and "every character likes his buffs" on top of saying that he's just easy to use, ten I don't actually see any reason to drop him a rank.
You, talking about the game, Sir, is very, veery relaxing and gives a lot of knowledge about the game we love. Keep doing it! -Snejki
I will not tolerate Vestal slander. She's best girl.
Love the video series man!
What you think about this team?: Plage Doctor - Occultist - Dogmaster - First position is up to you, some good Melee DPS like Leeper or Headhunter
Late to the party, but I feel like BH's range, stuns, and in compliment to his ability to deal just ridiculous amounts of crit damage with mark synergy... I'd propose him S-Tier and for best character.
I agree. You can also keep his stall trinkets in place when he transforms because he gets the crazy buff when he transforms. I think that he is able to transform in 1/3 of the fights.it’s great that you don’t really need to build balanced with him to get that flexibility.
The fact that you have 3 tiers only and mostly everyone is in A, and only 1 true b (not including musk) is such a fucking testament to red hooks balance team qnd char dev. And i agree with you, as someones whos beat it a few times, there is no one i really regret taking off the stage coach. I love antiqu, but shes the only one i can understand some people might be like "ugh". What a wonderfully designed game (for the most part)
All characters are so usable that 3 tiers are almost too many :P
Finally, legit love this comment. Too many people want more tiers and it's like why lol
@@ShuffleFM always awesome vids, personally i love using characters im not comfortable with; shoving weird combinations into dungeons and forcing them to work puts them all in the same room
No joke, I think Leper is S tier. You summed him up quite accurately and still undervaluing him in my honest opinion by putting him in A. He's just an insane stand alone character.
I highly underestimated his potential. Once you start buffing his damage, and pulling enemies to him, He CLEAVES like a mthrfckr. Haha
Copium straight from ancestors private reserves. I get it, everyone loves the funny chop man, but it’s getting out of hand. In what universe is leper better than jester? What can he do except hit revenge on turn one and then throw damage on something you don’t really want to damage? He’s just a more awkward arbalest with much less supporting skills. I get it, he’s not F-tier, he’s not the worst, but enough with this cope already.
@@max7971 every universe? Highest damage, debilitates all enemies, most potent self heal and stress relief in the game while doubling as a tank. If you're comparing him to the Jester you clearly have no idea how to play this game.
Sir, let me tell you about King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem "the leper"
S tier is the only place for a king.
Ok, crazy guy here. I actually run my vestals second slot damage dealer and healer. I got a scroll and a head (trinkets, scroll is heretical or profane, can't recall) early on that make it critical to manage her stress, but it takes the somewhat weak party heals into something legitimately formidable. What's more, a couple hands of light, emboldening vapor and a clobber can spike 40sum damage on a crit, to the point that vestal is downright scary. Plus with the illumination skill, she susses out any stealthed boys pretty fast.
She's basically the foundation of my every team switching between build up and nuke shot to damage control. She might only get one nuke every other battle, but I know her target's dead or wishing they were.
My argument for B tier Vestal:
Her most optimal setup is boring to play. I guess that just goes with being a healbot in a turn-based game. Like sure, she's effective, but at higher levels of understanding the game she takes away a lot from the element of strategizing and just makes battles much slower. You could run something like Arbalest in the role of the healer instead of Vestal which, yea, she's more dangerous to take, but both for you AND your enemies! You won't see a scenario where backline Vestal destroys the backline, unless you count constantly stunning pos3 into that.
And while we're talking about Arbalest, I think her biggest demerit outside of stuff like stats is that she can be very dangerous to new players who see that she has a heal but don't know how to heal reliably in this game. And so they end up just using the heal constantly, because they don't know how to mitigate damage, stall or even that enemies can easily outdamage your heals. But once you get a hold on those concepts I think Arbalest beats Vestal when it comes to being the best healer in the game, especially considering the buff it gives. Not only does it allow for more healing with food after combat in case you didn't fully heal while stalling, it also allows for some secondary heal like PD, Antiquarian or Crusader to chip in a little more during stalling (or maybe even in the middle of combat if the situation is good). I consistently like having my Arbalest pair with PD because it gives me a lot of control over enemy backline on top of the bonuses I already mentioned.
Have you ever considered doing reviews of modded characters and the like? I'd love to hear your thoughts on characters like Duchess or Ringmaster.
I would love to. Unfortunately there isn't time right now with dd2 coming
So to get through the DD missions you essentially want at least 16 max resolve heroes because of the debuff right? This alongside having the 2 dlcs to contend with means you're in champion long enough that shieldbreaker breaks into S imo. Either way, good video 👍
crusaders is a generalist but all his skill's do 2 things at the same time heal/stress/light damage/stun protection/mark/light cleave move/damage, thats great
An underated combo I think, is Vellion. You can build Vestal to do heals and stuns, while Hellion stuns and does big damage. Add in a PD for extra control and you have a threesome that can just go so, so far.
1 year later~~~
But isnt that a official party with a name already?
Vestal-PD-GR-Hellion was something like sisters of war
Sad to see my favorite trilogy come to an end.
I agree with almost everything. However, why not put grave robber in B if she's basically the same as abomination.
My biggest gripe though dude. It's not much of a tier list if almost everyone is in the same tier.
Depends what you want from a tier list.
If you use them to check out a games balance and see how different heroes compare, this one still does a great job.
Not his "fault" if DD is well balanced.
HIghway man is my favourite character after he gave me my most memorable fight.
Against swine god I put his riposte up getting ready for an attack.
Wilbur decided to mark him, and he crit Wilbur leaving him 100-0
So swine god goes berserk and thanks to my jester highwayman crits twice more on the attacks, and finally crits on the point blank shot soloing the entire fight in two turns. I was very concerned that I was about to lost this fight, and then suddenly it was over.
I don't really understand the argument against Vestal being in S-tier.
"Unless you're playing torchless, doing very difficult bosses or are new to the game, you very rarely have multiple people on death's door, so you don't need an AoE heal."
Sure, if you're doing easy content and you know exactly what's coming, she's not needed, and you might as well run a de-stresser or damage dealer because stress is a bigger threat to you than damage. But in any content where you might actually risk dying ("the hardest missions in the game"), you say to bring her. Being good at hard stuff and bad at easy stuff is far more important than the other way around.
I know you acknowledge it in the video, but I think your assessment of her (and especially your inclination to put her in B) is bias against her because she's boring and 1-dimentional. Which she is! But that 1-dimension (Judgement, Stun, 2 heals +/- illumination) is just broken enough to be better than any of the 20 builds a bounty hunter can do.
Thank you for your videos , they have been a nice guide to learning the game better. How important is it to bring a character that can prevent nighttime ambush? That "feature" seems to be the thing that completely destroys my runs more than anything else. My characters get swapped, stressed and normally hurt pretty badly before I can finally win that battle and then its almost too late to recover and many times I end up retreating.
If it's hard to deal with then always bring prevention :)
Another thing you can do is shuffle your party before camping if you don't have it and hope the ambush puts you in a decent position. Final strat is to have a lot of movement attacks to help fix it.
@@ShuffleFM Thanks for the reply! I'll keep all those in mind
HWM not in S tier?
*Dies of cringe*
(loved the video, thanks shuff
as a new player this video helps a lot ty!! i will say tho jester has gotten me thru so many fights and judging from what u said about him, it's kind of A just bc u dont like the playstyle, but functionally it feels like S even coming from someone who deff isnt using the class to the full potential
Tier list: almost everyone in middle tier - nice game, good balance
Imma say it, I like Musketeer more than Arbalest. It all comes down to fashion really, and you can't beat that hat. Form *and* Function.
I love the 6/3 part haha
I'm surprised that Abomination is considered B tier.
I'm probably 1/3 thru the vanilla game (Darkest Difficulty) , and he is unstoppable. I just run him with any sort of stress healer, and *Lock of Transference* / *Restraining Lock* . Stress really hasn't been an issue for me. Lol. I don't transform on every turn, Just when a fat boi pops up or a boss.
Is it that I'm just not far enough in the game yet? Does he start to fall off or something?
He actually gets better later on, but the main issue is how transform works and doesn't lower the stress gained the higher rank it becomes means that half his kit is not worth using in the majority of encounters. Abom is still a 9 speed stunner, even if his stun is weak in terms of stun chance, so he's never going to be bad for that.
I still think shieldbreaker is amazing at apprentice. The ability to break guard and hit the backline with high damage is useful no matter the level. Armour piercing is also just busted. I've been doing a lot of apprentice stuff lately and she just wrecks everything. I would give her S.
Shes so squishy tho, and dealing with nightmares in apprentice missions is practically asking for affliction.
my favorite team was antiquarian, plague doctor, crusader, and hellion. the stuns and versatility carried me trough the game.
My only changes are Leper and Vestal in S tier. Probably ought to have a D tier though, just to be able to differentiate between some of the A tier characters. Abom still getting dropped in the last tier though.
the game is too well balanced, thats why the majority of characters are A, theres no useless character in this game, they all do something good
@@misty1985 Lol, nah, it isn't. Just because every character is useful does not mean every character is so similar you can't tell who is slightly better than the others. Putting anti next to Flag and Highwayman? Sorry but no. MAA with Leper and Shieldbreaker? Again, no. With 5 tiers you could probably drop Graverobber and Occultist a level too because they're frankly just slightly less useful than the rest of A tier, even if they are still very viable.
I’ve gotta defend Highwayman for S. I’m playing through again and as a point of practicality I can always build a team around Highwayman because he does good to great damage from any rank, to any rank. In the early to mid game I might not have a Hellion available or maybe I don’t have a hard hitter up front or maybe what I have is lacking for reach… a Highwayman solves all of those problems.
He might not have flexibility it terms of different capabilities (healing, stunning, etc) but he is by far the most flexible damage dealer.
End game when you have access to everything maybe he’s not S tier, but on the way to the end he solves a lot of problems you may have with throwing together a useful lineup.
I've killed some bosses with Highwayman in couple of turns just boosting accuracy and dodge with trinkets: from second row advance attack activating riposte and then go back with point blank to repeat. Dual Highwayman is fun also. The fact that he can easily negate all shuffle attacks might save the day. Also I'm biased, for he is my fav character. S tier!
Whoa… now with a face. Always entertaining. Good work!
I use jester as a stress healer and as a movement class. When paired with shield breaker in third and jester in second and jester has the dirk stab he can work really well. But that is all.
can't wait for part 207/3
I feel like you made this tier to celebrate your boy the crusader and then just stuck everyone else in A. lol
Nah. I talked to a lot of people in my community and they felt making 3 tiers was right because the power level of heroes isn't that different.
Grave Robber without Sharpened Letter Opener, A or even B+. Grave Robber with it, solid S.
That trinket is just nut, everything you want (very high damage mod + accuracy to never miss) with some goodies on top (bit of dodge is never bad) and 0 drawbacks except needing to play with Crimson Court. All other trinkets that give close to this amount of buff come with some heavy cost (e.g. Dismas head gives only the damage part and cost you HP and stress). And the best part is that you can get it as soon as apprentice if it pops up as reward for the first CC mission. Getting it that early can literally change a run by influencing how much GR you want to have in your roster and the kind of party you will build around her (for example more HWM and SB to get the dance parties lunge -> lunge going)
Sickening Satchel is 20% damage to everything as long as enemy is blighted. Lunge itself has deals 33% damage when an enemy is blighted. together, its 53% damage on blighted targets and lunge itself has 140% damage scaling. so she is doing 193% damage. Its also so easy to apply blight early game by just picking plague doctor and using plague bile. plague bile->lunge =rank 3 unit dead. Sicken Satchel is also really strong for its ability to lower damage penalty of poison darts to -40%. Letter opener is more of secondary damage artifact, if you use it with sickening satchel, you can potentially do 218% damage lunges.
Bonk Vestals are more than a meme. Mace Bash is weak on its own, but trinket support is excellent. The CC set is worth 2 slots just for +25% healing and +35% stun, you get more than a free Ancestor's Pen thrown in. That upgrades Mace Bash to a non-marked Collect Bounty for Unholy instead of Humans. After a Hand of Light, your Mace Bashes hit harder than Lunge (assuming no skill-specific bonuses).
Details will differ, but the same principle applies to Profane Scroll - you essentially get more than a free high-quality trinket thrown in. The options are even better offense, fantastic group heals with a second heal trinket, or both with Heretical Passage in Eldritch-rich locations/Farmstead.
Shuffle! What do you think about the idea of 'Vestal having a small stress heal on top of her heal'? Numerically insignificantly small.
It would have to be 1 point. Even at 2 that's really good.
Highwayman NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Would you consider doing a "ShuffleFM patch" where you would make changes to any states (stats, hit chance, dots, etc) in the game?
I'd like to but we are so close to dd2 I just wanna focus on that
@@ShuffleFM for sure. Always a good idea for content for something retro in the future too.
I think occultist is one of my favorite classes. I keep him in rear and he's the healer/back row damager
I love the hellion and plague doc. HwyM, Bounty H, and Occultist are all amazing to me. Good in ALL areas with a few skill tweaks. I like the shieldgirl too but only if I can have 2 of them to spam the aoe spear throw.
The crusader is useless. By the time he gets to go the enemies have rekt your party. 4 times now I have decided to give him another try because everyone loves him and I just helplessly watch as he sits there while I get smashed. I mean what the hell is going on?
At any rate, the hellion is my girl. She sits on the throne. What an absolute unit of a character!
ShuffleFM is the best DD player ever and someone had the gaul to say he is garbage for taking Leper on torch-less? He took a character with ACC issues and won on torch-less....Im so confused as to how thats garbage play? Anyways, great video as always Shuffle. Without your videos I would have never beaten this game. Keep on keepin on my man!
Sat through 57 minutes of video for 1 minute of Echo. Jk, good analysis that recontextualized how I view the characters and their usefulness.
Lepper is a FUKIN chad, he tanks a lot, can heal himself, he hits like a truck. I love to have him with Man at arms, Who basicly removes Lepper weakness
I got this god leper cause he has
Natural Swing (+5 Acc)
Slugger (+10 Damage with Melee)
Tough (+10% HP)
And i give them a Sun Ring and Focus Ring and he is a beast
His damage is through the roof and best part about him is the fact i can place him in any team and he works great as long as they don’t need the front or dance with him with the exception of Highwayman
*Abomination gets put in b tier*
*sad abomination noises*
also, yea abom's kit can definitely be better if rh took care of him more/better, that and usually other heroes can just do what he does better in alot of cases
I really enjoy using abom in the endless harvest, him spamming rake and leper spamming hew is amazing
@@dr.narwhalmd4885 I've recently did a beastbom run with pd/jest/occ/abom and I got to 300, he is definitely a solid option that is also fun to use
@@dr.narwhalmd4885 i made a team with jestal-abom-sd i manage to reach more of 400 kills. I said a got luck because my abom obtained the self stress v and my vestal stress heal all.
I only stop because my boss fight was The flesh with crit buff and my team heal debuff
Does % healing increase prevent 0 heals with Occultist?
No sadly.
I just started playing darkest dungeon, i thought i would just be very boring and use the "generic" classes like crusader but damn hound master and flagellent have to be my favorites, such cool classes
Maybe I’m bad but having no good healers in S feels a bit wrong. I feel like I’m trolling if I don’t take Atleast one of arb vest occult or flag
The thinking is that stunning enemies and killing them quickly mitigates more damage than healing restores. You can always run a healer, but they aren't broken or mandatory imo since there are alternatives.
Thing is you can abuse stalling with one weak enemy to endlessly heal in most fights. Healing is vital, don't get me wrong, but it's not as op as most players think it to be. Most players with that mentality tend to heal when it's not necessary.
When's the 7th part, electric boogaloo for DD2?
Do you have or are planning to do a guide which is "How to beat The Darkest Dungeon (1/2/3) no spoilers" since I'm absolutely terrified on facing the final bosses but wanna catch up for darkest dungeon 2 and I think it may be good for people who might wanna play Darkest Dungeon 1 since Darkest Dungeon 2 is dropping.
I'll do some DD1 stuff after a couple months of DD2 I think. There are videos like that which would be nice to make
As a new person to the game I say that vestal, plague, crusader and helium work the best for me
I love tier lists
Leper's weaknesses are more on paper than in actual gameplay. But when his weakness hit (position or miss) it's worse for him. We don't have enough amazing skills that goes backwards comparing to those that goes forward, so if you got pushed to rank 3 or 4 you are really fucked. Jester and Vestal however can do something significant in ranks 1 and 2 while the damage dealers goes foward.
Imo vestal still deserve S. Yes it's usually better being proactive than reactive, but that's only when you already know what you'll encounter. Picking vestal is very safe for your team and usually the go-to pick when you going blind. I'd rather have her and don't need her healing, than need her healing but not having her
Great video, but I think a consistent problem with this type of video is that you reiterate so much analysis information that you had already covered in the character videos AND previous tier lists. This video could have been cut down significantly if you only focused on what changed your opinion from the last tier list(s).
It's a fine line to walk sadly. I have to assume people haven't watched all my videos before this one, or they forgot, so I still cover some info repeatedly. Thanks for watching the previous stuff :)
Why you gotta do my boi the abomination like that
Arbalest/Musketeer F tier tho
Still waiting for beginners guide part 3
Flashpowder, I find, is pretty bad in torchless, cuz you are essentially a flashpowder down against all enemies - so it only really starts kicking in from it's second use, which is quite slow
Torchless is weird. The enemies get more accuracy so dodge is harder to do and not as valuable. Meanwhile the enemies hit so damn hard that being able to dodge any of that helps a lot
SB is out of position in rank 4, she can only puncture from there which you don't always need, but it's not as bad as having no moves at all sure.