The Sex Industry: Empowering or Shaming? with Sarah Jones | The Man Enough Podcast
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2025
- Tony award-winning performer, Sarah Jones, joins us to discuss the many sides of the sex industry and how men interact with it -- the subject of her directorial debut, SELL/BUY/DATE, based on her acclaimed Off-Broadway play.
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MORE ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Is sex work a choice? What are the impacts of sexual shame? Tony Award winning writer and actor Sarah Jones brings her dynamic perspective and diverse performed characters to an invigorating conversation about the sex industry showing up in everyday life. Once a taboo subject, it’s now all over society, from the servers at Hooters to the porn flooding the phones of young boys. Through her work on her newest film SELL/BUY/DATE, Sarah has learned the importance of sexual freedom, and centering choice and equality in all aspects of sexual life.
ABOUT SARAH JONES:
Called “a master of the genre” by The New York Times, Sarah Jones is a Tony Award-winning solo performer, writer, comedian and activist. She recently made her debut as a film director with the hybrid documentary SELL/BUY/DATE, produced by Oscar-Winner Meryl Streep, in which she also stars.
Jones is mainly known for her multi-character one-person shows, including Broadway hit BRIDGE & TUNNEL, also originally produced by Streep, and the critically-acclaimed play SELL/BUY/DATE, which inspired the film. Renowned as “a one-woman global village,” she has also given multiple main-stage TEDTalks garnering millions of views, performed for President and First Lady Obama at the White House, and given a performance at The World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland as the first artist on its stage normally reserved for heads of state. She has also been a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador, raising awareness of gender, ethnic, racial, and economic injustice and disparities, including in the United States.
SHOW NOTES
3:34 - Introduction to Sarah Jones
4:37 - Meet Sarah’s Characters
5:13 - When Was The Last Time You Didn’t Feel Enough?
11:13 - Leaning into human vulnerability
16:37 - Sex work and the sex industry in our daily lives
25:13 - Men and Sexual Shame
33:53 - The Commodification of Sex
45:09 - The Importance of Choice
58:26 - Andy's advice to men: "We have to talk to each other."
01:11:36/01:12:27 - What Does it Mean to be Man Enough?
HOSTS: Justin Baldoni, Liz Plank, and Jamey Heath
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Sarah made an interesting point about older generations: They couldn’t be emotionally vulnerable because they were already vulnerable in so many other ways. Vulnerability is more popular now because those needs are being met.
Thank you for sharing ❤️
Thank you for this episode specifically. The thing Jamie said about it not really being the girls’ choice really spoke to me. I was sexualized at way too young of an age and although I despised it, I leaned into it. To hear a man express how sorry he was that I had to lean into it, on behalf of men, was so validating and I didn’t even realize how much I needed to hear it.
Thank y’all for this podcast. I swear I learn and unlearn something every episode. As someone surrounded by people that refuse to do the work, it gives me hope to see conversations like this. ❤
Thank you for sharing your own journey. So sorry for your experiences and we're glad we can offer you some support and community. Sending love.
almost every episode ends up with me crying and you can't imagine how much that means to me... it's just... i don't know, the conversation, the way you all talk to each other, the kindness, the humility... it gets to my deepest space in my heart. Those are healing tears... Thank you so much, this podcast means the world to me. Keep going, please. We need you
Thank you so much. We need you too.
As a disabled woman, this topic is hard for me. I believe that people should have sex however and whenever that feels right for them. That can involve money or not. But the place disability comes up here is always "but they need sex workers." That feels rooted in the idea that disabled people can not have healthy and happy intimate lives without money changing hands.
Thank you for the feedback. That's a really important perspective.
I'm here crying being our whole authentic selves and then that Bumble comment hit my funny bone so hard 🤣
There are some really rich moments in this one.
So good from Jamey, appreciated his insights
I like all the episodes of this podcast. Each and every single one touches upon topics, that really should be part of conversations between friends, familiy, coworkers and others. However, this episode has touched me deeply. Sex and Sex as a job is most definitely an issue, that gets us all into trouble. We are so disconnected with our own ideas about sex, because we are bombarded from such a young age, to believe, that sex is a must, sex is nasty, sex can only happen like in porn to be satisfying enough, sex is dirty, sex is only for men, and so on. It is still a tabu and it is taught from generation to generation in such a wrong way. To believe, that men only want sex from women and they can't be friends because of that, is such a blind way to look at relationships between the sexes. To believe, that women are objects, here to satisfy all the crazy ideas men have about sex is distorted and so far from reality. To believe, that you must fulfill your sexual needs and desires no matter what, at all costs, is making human relations worthless. But what is really upsetting, is that so many girls, from such young age (9, 10 12 year old) must go through hell just because men have not been taught right and that they use their position of power and strength, to USE these girls and through them in the trash can once they are satisfied. We still have so much to do, so much work needs to be done. Thank you Man Enough Podcast for giving us a chance to at least listen to you are make space for these conversations.
Thank you so much for watching🧡
Sex is important and a part of how we were created in the first place. It's about building and maintaining relationships, but at the same time it's a thing you do with your own body. With yourself or with another or several other persons. To deny yourself the possibility to choose how to do sex, out of of a fear of doing it, is also detrimental to the human condition. We have so many choices in life, with or without money, and to deny money being a part of this equation is to be naïve. Coercion is one thing, but relationships cost money to begin with (any kind of relationship, because time is also money). So I see sex work as a part of the puzzle of being alive. You do your thing, with the help of others. And they do their, with the help of you. And together, you cooperate, exchanging and building upon values. My two cents.
Thank you for this wonderful and important conversation. And yes we need to have more conversations around this subject. So important for our young girls, boys, parents and all of us to understand and have clarity. Thank you Jamey and Andy for your precious input and respect for women🙏❤. The world will heal through conversations like this. We need it. THANK YOU
I really wish this conversation keeps being had
We will keep having them 🧡
Sarah Jones is brilliant! This episode was a gift!
Thank you for watching🙏
The guy saying men shouldn't watch p0rn sounds like hes been desired his entire life and never had any issue gettig attention from women, so f course he doesn't understand why some men use it
As an undesirable man p0rn is the closest i can get to s3x and has been helpful in exploring my identity and embracing myself as a s3xual being outside of women's desire
this was such a great episode
Thank you!
So much interesting things being talked about here. Kudos!
Thank you for listening ❤️
I'm a lonely young man looking for connection with others. After watching this episode, I have decided to solicit the services of a sex worker. Thank you Man Enough for helping me to be a better man! 😀
It helped me out very well, that I can tell you.
Hell yea dude
Jordan Peterson makes a solid argument that "p-rn is dangerous". Listen to that and let it sink in.
it is. Also recommend the organization Fight the New Drug.
Somebody ran to the comments before watching the episode.
Also, link? Please. Im interested but lazy.
@@coppersense999 somebody ran to the comments section but was too lazy to listen to Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson and see WHY they are so popular.
It has effects. Like a lot of other things in our life. "Use with moderation".
You are all so cute and brilliant , this was a beautiful conversation. Thank you!!!!!!
1:03:41was so powerful!!!
Thank you.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the rich discussion ...
On objectification ...
Liz & Jamey talk about why/how men objectify women's bodies (which women hate) but then men "enjoy" being objectified by women or they don't mind. The example is not an equal example. Men & women BOTH objectify each other and we BOTH hate it and we do it for the same reasons but in different ways.The way women actually objectify men is often through their "wallet" or basically flattening their need to provide as "just being good for my money/income/job" and not being valued as a man in his complexity, not by how their body looks (which might be received more as appreciation, rather than objectification).
We objectify in order to simplify something that is complex and that overwhelms us.
We do it to feel safer in the situation (men & women for different reasons or triggers).
Thank you for your thoughtful perspective.
Interesting, but… "hate" is such a strong word. We have senses to explore the world. We enjoy being with and seeing other people. To equate that with objectification is not really what it's about. It's when you _adapt_ yourself based upon feeling the need to be looked at in some way, that can be problematic.
Are you sure women are still the ones objectifying men through their wallets nowadays? Or could it be that men are doing this to each other and themselves? I think a lot of men get stuck in outdated ways of thinking that get regurgitated by other men, not actually women. They get brainwashed by what some popular men think and say, way more than by women.
I think part of the confusion when discussing this is the sloppy use of the term 'objectification'. I think it would be more appropriate to distinguish between sexualization and objectification. If I objectify a woman I grant her no autonomy. That could be either in a sexual way as some kind of sex doll but also as a robot with a cleaning rag. I think objectification is inherently problematic because we essentially take away their humanity. Sexualization is viewing primarily someone for their sexual merits. That can go along with objectification but that's not necessary. Personally, I see sex workers as women in a sexualized way, I don't care about if they are good at math or if they can cook. But I see them as being fully human, only interacting on the basis of consent, talking to each other and getting the feeling they like to interact with me.
On top of everything mentioned there also can be a willing objectification as a kind of role play, where the women wants to be taken like a 'piece of meat'. Its kind in the realm of 'consensual non consent', but can be erotic, for men too by the way to be objectified.
15:50
Jamey is more feminist than liz , he didn't use a political correct word like " sex work is not controversial" i wished that Liz being honest about labeling things by its actual name which is prostitution not " sex work " and yes it's controversial .
27:15
When a prostituted women who is brainwashed that sleeping with someone whom she doesn't want sexually just for money and thinks that sleeping with men should be " not for free " because she turns her sexuality into a property that have a " price " and expects other women who doesn't to be folish because their sexuality is " priceless" i will understand her and feel empathy for her situation, but i cannot understand a feminist like Liz that considered that statement as a sort of wisdom , the of the main goals of patriarchy is to turn eomen bodies into property that could be bought and sold for " a price " or " for free " , and to indoctrinate women that their sexuality is not for them and is not about them but it's for men and about men , it's so sad to see a feminist like liz , reinforcing these patriarchal ideas , that women sexual practices are not for them or about their own pleasure and that the sexual relationship between a man and a woman is only about the man pleasure and that's why women who does that " for free " is not getting any please so they should at least receive money, i will flip the question and ask why men is doing sex " for free" with women and why men shouldn't get money from women each time a woman reach orgasm.
( Speaking about heteronormativity would you consider a gay man sleeping with other gay man " for free " as folish)
28:57
Jamey : based 👌💯
Liz: delusional and trying to be politically correct
Like he said intimacy is not for sale. sex positive feminists tries to justify the emotional damage of prostituted women by comparing their exploitation to an athletic playing , and even worse normalising the criminality of men who buys sex and exploit women by indirectly impling that they are " customers " because if prostitution is a " work " like any other work then men who engage in it becomes by default " customers " not criminals, she normalises that by the false comparison with an athlete who exerting a healthy work using your body and getting paid for their time and effort, i will ask Liz if she would consider someone who buys ( literally buys ) their body parts to feed his / her children, if someone decides to buy his arm to a disabled rich man because he doesn't have any other choice to feed his children would that be normalised as a type of " freedom of commerce" .
Intimacy, love , sex , happyness are not for sale, and if someone found himself/ herself obligated to do so for economical reasons we should feel empathy for them and trying to build an economical system where people are not obligated to do a very intimate thing with someone whom they don't desire just to be able to feed themselves or their children, and if self-obligated sex ( such as the sex in prostitution and porn industry) is not seen as a big deal or serious and considered not damaging and not emotionally and physically harmful then why rape ( externally-obligated sex) is considered serious and harmful, if being used sexually without your internal desire just to get money equals exerting physical effort to get money and have the same harm on your psychy and mental health then why sexual harresment laws and punishment and social stigma towards that the abuser are more harsh than the laws and punishment regarding any other sort of physical violence, the answer is because sexual violence and being obligated to have sex with someone is more traumatising and mentally damaging than being physically punished in a non sexual way ( or being working for a long time until your body becomes exhausted ) that doesn't mean the latter shouldn't be discussed or opposed but it means that sexual exploitation can not be compared to any other form of exploitation like the false comparison that Liz did.
33:06
Thinking that someone is hot doesn't equal sexual objectification, sexual objectification is a mentality that sees a whole Gender group existence and role in life is to sexually satisfy the other gender group also to see them as things not as people bodies as a property to be owned, abused and used for sexual pleasure and it's different than seeing them as a person ( not a thing ) who has a beautiful physical characteristics or sexually attractive body that you wish someday that you could have an intemate or sexual relationship with.
Also to your point that why men tend to objectify women , number 1 because of rape culture that teels men and boys that women are objects to be used not a subject who you share intimacy with, a thing that can be bought qnd sold ( like in the sex industry) a body to be fucked not a person who has a body that both fuck and be fucked ( yes women love to fuck men too ) someone who doesn't have a sexuality and if their sexuality suddenly exist its existence is for men pleasure ( men see their sexuality as something for their own pleasure not for women pleasure) , they objectify women because the messages of porn scene makes men as subject while women as object , men as conquering and women to be conquered, women as lazy , passive and submissive while men as active and dominant, portraying the scene completely from the male perspective ( the most misogynistic one ) and the one who make these scenes is a man doing it for other men ( there's not a genre of porn that made by women for women and thanks god that this thing doesn't exist because it's not an honour for us to take a part in this exploitive industry) all these reasons+ other reasons are behind that and the porn industry with its incorrect portrial of female sexuality is a main reason for that that couldn't be discussed and makes people go around the subject such as you Liz to avoid the supposedly " slut shaming" connotation Which end up making people spinning around the subject without touching its core , sounding vague and dishonest in conversations like that .
44:50
Again
Jamey: based 👌💙
Liz : delusional
Are you trying to lie to yourself liz or lieing to women sex industry and porn industry are ALL about patriarchal violence, where's that type of porn that's not about violence and / or patriarchal narrative about the female sexuality, where are those people who give flowers to sex workers as you said and if there's any , what are their proportion? 1% ? 2% ? 10% ? I would say i don't have any thing against you personally but you completely lost it in this episode.
Also erotica or erotic art in novels , movies etc are not the same thing as porn , it's a false equivalence and an insulat to erotic art.
50:01
I feel for Jamey being surrounded by 2 delusional women who are trying to normalize the exploitation of young girls under the umbrella of " it's complicated" and " don't judge".
( Notice that nobody in this episode expressed rage about a 12, 13 year old girls being exploited by the sex industry except James and nobody calling it by its actual name PEDOPHILIA).
54:55
Finally you said the truth 😂 " the guy who is buying her " how ironic this is , but the truth is more powerful than politically correct lies.
( justin is lucky for being absent from this episode )
A lot of WOKE , unreasonable, politically correct, pedophilia justification , spinning around the subject , toxic positivity shit is ging on in this episode which makes a hard time for me to watch it untill the end without making a comment every phemto second to reply to the infinite fallacies and non sense that been said in this episode and i have to admit that it was very exhausting for me to reply on every nonsensical point that been said because or properly address the very logical fallacy that been said here so i will leave it to this point.
💯💯💯💯
You appear very negative. Try for once to let people make their own choices. People are different. Not all people are brain-washed. Sex work is work.
BTW, you seem very anti… Can you start listen to (other) women? Like Melissa Gira Grant, Carol Queen, Hannah Witton, Esther Perel, Sophia Giovannitti, Bree Mills, Joanna Angel, Holly Randall and the people she's been interviewing for the last decade, the writers of "Porn Work", "Revolting Prostitutes", "Whore of New York", "Women Who Buy Sex", "The Pornography Wars", the people at Bellesa Films, PinkLabelTV, Lust Cinema, Lustery… Maybe you can learn a thing or two. Or not.
Jamey mansplaining sex work is not as fun as lot of women experience it to be.
O boy, he should take a peek when I get womanhandled by one or two of those sex workers.
I was with Jamie 1000000000%
I appreciate y'all's show so much, thank you for continuing to have these conversations and put them out. I hopefully here am going to be calling Jamie and Justin in here and not calling them out, but sometimes y'all make little comments about who's physique is a certain way (like at the beginning of this one, Jamie you "joking" about how Andy has the same build as Justin). I know that y'all don't mean to cause any hurt, but I think comments like that do something to play into the normalized attractiveness standards that cause all of us to question our beauty.
Y'all do such a great job of being mindful so much of the time, and it helps me so much to hear what y'all are thinking about, that even joking comments about how one person doesn't look "as good" as another stand out to me as running counter to what y'all are really wanting to share. And that goes for anyone putting themselves down, too! Every one of y'all is equally beautiful, for real, and not because of any external quality or age or hair style or anything else on the surface.
I feel real love for y'all, thanks again for connecting with us week after week. I'm learning right alongside you.
Thank you so much for pointing this out, it means a lot you took the time to share your thoughts with us. 🧡
Please make an interview with the female icon in India and Philippines, Miss Universe 1994, Sushmita Sen. She is an unconventional woman who adopted two beautiful girls. She lives her life on her own terms in India. If you have her on your own show, you will get a huge international audience. Thanks!!!
1:01:20 such a good point.
"Sex is sacred" No, it's not inherently sacred, that's superstition. If you want it to be sacred, go for it. But don't lecture people to hold back if they want to have a good time with someone they don't even know.
Feel like that person's just an old man and like most old men wants things to go back to the way they were because he's scared of the new world he lives in
There is a mistaken idea or concept that men always want sex, and that they are interested in having sex with almost any woman, or that all men are heterosexual. This misconception can lead some women to believe that any man would be willing to have sex with them, even if he doesn't actually want to. They might say things like "you should be grateful that I want to have sex with you" or get offended. Furthermore, if they were to opt for sexual assault, no man would go to report the abuse out of fear of being ridiculed. It's something that you can't even share with your "manly" male friends. Sexual education, respect, and support from the system seem to differentiate genders.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Yes that is an important fact. Like it is also important to know that there are actually women that like sex with total strangers, as if they were typical men so to say. Women and men are not that different after all. Statistically there are differences but on an individual level not that much.
"I was born cancelled."
8:24
Females be like: I dont want to play all TOO small (well maybe I would love to but i cannnot) but also I cannot be bigger or better than anyone else ever, without first knowing full well how to appear super humble and how to never make anyone feel "less than" or like I'm full of myself.
"I'm trying to hold a paradox. that I both don't wanna be in a hierarchy where I'm like, "I was up here doing these things." But also every time somebody is like,
"Oh, you did a TEDx?" And I'm like, "No girl, I follow Bill Gates." Like, you know, I have to, I have to sort of find the way to, what does humility and knowing that you've made your mark in your own right-sized way look like?
Like neither shrinking, which is false humility, nor letting anybody make you play small."
It's like you have to check where everyone is and never get ahead, always pace your steps and check your energy to stay just a little behind.
I miss Justin
He'll be back in next week's episode.
@@WeAreManEnough I’m glad, this episode was good but you can really noticed that Justin is not there.🥺