I really love that I'm seeing more and more videos like this appearing in my feed. To me, it shows that the digital audio engineering and production community is taking their sound quality a lot more seriously, and that people are realizing the things we did in the "analog days" are still very relevant. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
I've gotta say thank you, you are the first person to explain again staging & I understood instantly. I applied to a track I recorded, & bam! My song sounded tons better....
Wow, thank you - such clear explanations. I started 30 years ago on a 4 track tape machine, but never understood these 'numbers' until today. Big thanks your way ;-)
Ok I think is a great video, as I have been using meters for quite some time . Just wondering I was always led to believe you want your drums and bass to accumulate up to 3 db and because your low end will take up a lot of headroom so then you have 3 db to allow for vocals instruments and compression.
loved it ...kinda knew something about the 'sweet spot'..but had never taken the time of day to 'explore it' rather i'd just let it go by year after year as a 'half cocked idea that i knew something about, but then knew nothing about ......that's very different related to what i know now...i'd been gain staging tracks in ableton and in cubase and now in studio one, but it was all about getting around -18db but now i 'get it' with calibration it makes a 'whole pile more sense'...and better sounding mixes will come as a result.....dug this tutorial as well as the gain staging in 4.5
Why so many sources talk about -6dB headroom before mastering? The most important thing is that it shouldn't be clipping and even if there is 0.5dB headroom after mixing, you can always lower the levels without any consequences, if there is no actual clipping. And if your stems are saved in 32bit floating point, then even clipping is not an issue to some extent. Am I wrong?
I think the default calibration for Slate VTM is -15dBFS=0VU, but it’s adjustable. The screenshot in their manual shows -15dBFS even though the text next to it says -18dBFS. -18dBFS=0VU is a solid option for gain staging, but a LOT of analog modelled plugins don’t use that particular definition. Some can be -8 or -12 or -14, some are -24. Annoyingly it’s never consistent so you just have to check plugin to plugin.
Now gain staging makes more sense to me. Put the fader to zero and adjust the wav file till it hits 0 /-18 on the VU meter. I have been wrongly adjusting the channel faders up or down to get to the right level. 😟 I am assuming when you record a track the same thing applies adjust the gain on your interface until the signal hits -18 / 0 on the VU meter you have placed on each track? Or do you record at say -12 and adjust the wav file back to -18? 😀
You still use the faders after you gain stage to get a balance in the mix, just don't use them to gain stage. How hot to record is a matter of debate, but I prefer a -18dBFS average level with peaks no higher than -6dBFS or so on the channel's peak meter.
Hi Joe, you enlightened me a lot. Thank you very much. Just one point to know more about as adjusting an instrument (e.g. trumpet) which is playing from very low to very high volume, something like performing crescendo in orchestration. In this case which part of this piece of music shall be measured at 0dB, the silent or the most loudest one? Thankssssssssssssss!
That's a tough one since orchestral instruments have such a large dynamic range, but generally the loudest parts should be around 0 dB, with peaks as high as -6dB on a peak meter. If it's a full orchestral or jazz mix, the levels will tend to be much lower than a typical pop recording.
Don’t worry much about the number! Just don’t clip the output ! Even at 0.1 is ok if the mix sounds good to you! Just print that file and later if you master it just decrease by 5.9 to start implementing processes!
i set my vu meter to 18 got that right with the K but before i go on i notice on my track db it's about -6 should i turn the input control down more to get -12? i have studio one pro-5.4? and when i am down i tend to turn track vol down to about -10
I’ve seen people level out their tracks starting with the most important elements around that sweet spot. Then they start raising the other elements around the kick bass and main vocal. What is the benefit of having every single track starting at -18. As opposed to the first method I mentioned. Even in your video. You start everything at -18. Then you have to lower the high frequency elements anyways. I get the feeling you have a reason for doing it the way you did
Green Light Sound okay well now I run into the issue of. Should I keep my faders at zero and use trim/gain plugins to handle volumes. The faders have higher resolution at the top and I like keeping them higher in case I need automation. I’m so sorry for bombarding ylu
You don't need to keep your faders at zero unless you want to. I usually gain stage like this first, then use the faders to create a rough mix. If some of the faders are too low in their travel, then you could certainly use a trim plugin instead. But I usually find that a track whose fader is that low isn't a candidate for automation, or I'll automate with VCAs.
Thx for that great tip 👍🏾! Know I have to gain staging every single thing like percussion’s, drums...Thx for that! My question: shoul i use gain staging after eq/compression or befor? Thx!:))))
Yes nice video man , nice concept with gain staging but How do I do my gain staging with a heavy distorted guitar tone van halen style . If I lower the input gain I'm losing the bite i'm looking for
This video applies to mixing, after you capture the guitar sound. Gain staging a guitar rig is a different topic. By all means turn it up to get the tone you want.
2nd so i am gain staging a live snr and on the track db it's at 0 sometimes goes over so i put a vu meter on the track i see its at 0 but that means its good if i gain control on that track and turn the track db down to -6db then it will read right i guess but if i do that it will be supper low on the vu meter that on the track so i am at a loss with this using a vu meter thing?
The snare transient is too fast for the VU meter to react in time. In this case, just use the peak meter in your DAW and have the snare peaks around -6dBFS.
Seasons greetings Joe and thanks for this excellent video. As the faders are now all at 0dB, using the kick drum as your guide to build the rest of the kit, what dB level would you move the kick fader down to? The other question I have would be concerning the wav clip volumes. Would it make sense to normalise every clip to -3dB and then adjust the faders, or if that would be too hot, would you perhaps drop the clip prints to -6dB. The point here being to get a uniform clip volume to help with better gain staging. What would then be your chosen drum busses and in what order would you place those afterwards? Thanks and look fwd to your advice!
Seasons greetings! I really don't have a specific kick drum dB level in mind when I start the rough mix. I start by bringing all the faders down and pulling them up one at a time. Kick, snare, bass, and vocals are usually at or near unity gain with peaks no higher than -6dBFS. Other tracks are often lower than that, but it depends on the source material. Since I gain stage manually I never normalize the audio, but I suppose you could use peak normalization on transient-heavy tracks to make sure they don't exceed -6dBFS. VU meters don't react fast enough to register short, percussive material so I usually rely on my peak meters with peaks no higher than -6dBFS. Not sure I understand your buss question, but I have a buss for every major instrument group and I rarely move the faders at the buss level. If they are moved, it's usually just a dB up or down from unity gain.
@@GreenLightSound Hi Joe and thanks for your reply. A 'go to' setting for gain staging would be an ideal basis to proceed from in any project. My thinking was that if the files aren't loud enough to begin with, its not a good foundation for gain staging. So there must be an ideal value? If all files are normalised to -1dB, then that would be too hot. Too low a value means a big push on the faders, so setting to 0dB on a VU meter is a good plan as shown in your excellent video! I was interested to know how many aux tracks you might add yourself, as opposed for example, to only one buss loaded with different plugins. I'd go for one aux per job, starting with all drums to a stereo gain bus with some EQ and tape emulation on it,, then a separate buss for parallel compression and lastly another for reverb. Would love to get this gain staging set up as a routine procedure, beginning with a uniform stem gain value.
Hello there. Great video content. I've got a question about the gain stage subject... When you hit " 0 " in a vu meter, which is equivalent to -18 db ,why should you use a vu meter in the first place? You could easily do the same thing by lowering the gain of each individual track, by simply checking the pre fader metering? Am I right?.... Cheers.
Depends on the meters. Most DAW channel meters are peak meters, which are not good at reading average level. If your DAW has an RMS option, you can then use your channel meters to gain stage and skip the VU meter. Studio One supports this now, and that's how I do it.
I just want to say that I've learned so much from this video so thank you for this!!! I do have a question tho. What does it mean when the VU meter is reading -18 but the actual channel is clipping or near clipping? This happened to me in Logic Pro X using a sampled clap.
Claps and other percussive material have such a fast transient that the VU meter can't catch it in time. Get your peaks on the clap to hit about -6dBFS on a peak meter (like your channel meter in Logic) and you should be good.
@@GreenLightSound Same problem here. Some sample at 0 dBVU nearly clio on the master. But what if I have a transient rich sound and have it peak at - 6dBFS as you suggested, does it still hit the sweet spot on the analog modeled plug-ins? It shouldn't, right? I mean cause they are calibrated to - 18 dBFS. I don't understand the logic of this.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks for responding :) So is it a basic gainstaging issue or? Is there somewhere we can discover what that difference is, good sir?
Great explanation. I have a question. Once the gian stging is set with th UV meter, there are plenty of plug ins like compressor or eq thta affets the sound. Should we measure the UV post effects or is it not necessary?, or should we measure it directly after the effects?. Thanks!
I usually gain stage with a VU meter before any other processing. Just try to match the input and output signals with you EQ/comps, unless you specifically want to add gain.
@@GreenLightSound And if you route previous masured tracks to a bus, that bus has to be controled by a VU too?, I mena, once the 4-5 guitar trackas are measured individualy, are sent to a bus. In that bus shoul we put a VU meter to control the whole bunch?. It happens actually that they are like 2 or 3 db abobe 0 but I don´t know if it really matters.
@@israelsastre4496 I don't use the VU meter on busses, but you certainly can. Remember, still need to do a rough mix with your faders, so your buss levels probably won't be that hot after that.
so confused, I gainstaged my 808 to hit 0 on the meter, however that then only leaves me with -1.0 db of headroom on my stereo out.... sooooo am i missing something? because i know im supposed to leave -4 - -6 db of headroom?
Anything with quick transients like an 808 will be too fast for a VU meter's slow ballistics. Use a peak meter for 808s and have your peaks around -6db.
Thank you for the great video - thinking about gain staging put my whole process of producing to a new level. I tried to apply your instructions to a current project of mine. It works for nearly everything, besides one part: i have a melodic element with very much transient and nearly no sustain. If i level it to 0db on the vu meter the audio-clip-preview clips heavily, the same for doing it by a separat gain utility. Since the signal is peaking: is it still a good idea to send this peaking signal to any plug-in coming afterwords or should i go at transienty sounds more for leveling with a peak meter to 0db? Thanks in advance!
The problem with VU meters and transient-heavy material is that the meter doesn't respond quickly enough to get an accurate representation of the actual level of the transient. While slow meter ballistics and RMS average metering are good things for most material, in your case I would check it with a peak meter so that the transients are peaking somewhere in the -6dbFS range. The should give you enough headroom so you don't clip your plugins.
I am still trying to understand about this. Is the "sweet spot" present in every plugin? For instance, are the stock DAW plugins also modeled from analog gear so they do have a sweet spot?
Depends on the plugin. Anything modeled on an analog piece of gear will likely have an optimal input level around -18dBFS, or 0 on the VU meter. Many analog-style plugins have a VU meter built into the interface that you can set to input level to check. Strictly digital plugins, like most stock EQ's, don't really have a sweet spot since they're not modeling the non-linearities and saturation/THD often apparent in analog gear. But your mix will still benefit from gain staging even if you don't use any analog modeled plugins.
Could you set up a separate stereo bus for metering (with no routed output so the mix bus/master doesn’t overload) and set up a send on every track PRE fader at 0db and achieve accurate metering results? That way when you solo a track it would show the level of said track pre fader? The only reason I suggest this is to minimise flicking through plugin windows for each track.
You might be able to achieve similar results, but your mono tracks would not have the same values on the stereo VU meter on the metering buss. Plus, you would still have to solo each track anyway. The track's plugin window opens automatically when I scroll through them in Studio One, so I'm not sure it would save much time or effort.
I tried adjusting a "snaps" track that was just below digital zero clip at -0.1db, but only -9vu. How would that work with this system? Also a tambourine was -30db peak meter but not even reading on the vu meter at below -20vu. How to you set these types?
The VU meter is too slow for tracks with really fast transients. Use a peak meter instead (like the one on your DAW channel) and have the peaks max out at around -6dBFS.
Depends on the source. If it's not something you want to highlight in the mix, you can just leave it alone. If it was an important element that was just tracked too low, I would bring it up.
thx for explanation, pretty good one :) i have a question, may you can answer it :) i use the vu meter from klanghelm, setting are -18db, but why or what is the reason, when i turn down my feders pre or post feder, doesn't matter which one, it is still showing some activities on my vu meter? if i put the vu meter not on my single chanelstrip, if i put it on my stereo out and i turn down my faders it stops showing me movements. i don't understand why? thx for helping me br
The fader is after the channel processing, so the VU meter will still show signal even with the fader down, and moving the fader up or down won't change the levels on the channel VU meter. Pre and post fader usually refer to the sends, not the individual channel processing. When you put the VU meter on your stereo out, it's reading the signal feeding into it post individual channel faders, so it will change depending on individual channel fader position.
I like to track with RMS levels around -18dB and peaks around -6. If you do that, you should be able to skip this step entirely before mixing as your levels will already be properly set.
Hi i have few questions. 1. Could i use vocal rider plug in for automation after doing gain staging using vu meter from waves? 2. Can i adjust the gain in individual plugins like compressor or exciters or the output must be same as input like you mentioned. 3. I am recording my own songs at home and exporting final track myself. Do i must keep master level to -6db for final track or i can let it go till -1 as long as not clipping. Reason being my track sounds quiet compared to songs out there and i am using L2 maximiser on master bus. Thanks for great video!
I'll try to answer in order. 1.Yes, you could use Vocal Rider but I would use it as a last step after all your other processing (EQ, comp, etc.). Automation is usually applied after your channel processing is done. 2. The output doesn't have to stay the same with your plugins. It's just a general tip. If you start to add gain with every plugin, you will quickly run out of headroom. 3. Try not to confuse mixing with mastering. Your mixes will always be softer than a mastered commercial release. I would print your mix, then apply the mastering processes like limiting to bring the track up to a competitive volume.
Very interesting video !! I have one question please, what could be the approach of gain stage for buses ? Let’s imagine I want to use a compressor on my guitar bus (3 guitar tracks) and the plug in has a sweet spot at -18dbFS/0vU. So okay, at the beginning my three individual guitar audio files have been trimmed to be at 0dBVu. On the guitar bus, those are the faders of the three tracks that set the « new audio input ». Can we imagine to set the Vu meter at 0dBVu / -18dfFs on the bus track ? And then reach « the -6dB » on the mix bus by the gain stage of all buses ? Is it possible to have a balance song by using this method ? How to deal with buses ? Any ideas ? Thanks :)
After you gain stage each individual channel, you will then create a rough mix by moving the faders. I've yet to mix a song where every mix element is as important as every other, and all the faders stay at 0, so the levels hitting the buss are not the same as they were after the initial gain staging. Once I get the rough mix, I often find I'm in the ballpark for correct levels hitting each subgroup and my mix buss. If not, I can always use the input control on the buss compressor to hit the sweet spot.
If your using a trim meter underneath plugin should you still have a VU meter at the top of the plug-in chain on every track including master track? When you say set it at -18 db so you mean literally set the view meter to -18 DB inside the meter itself? Or do you play the track and watch the needle and turn it up the volume or down the volume to get the needle towards zero in the view meter? Thanks
You could still overload plugins on each channel by doing that. Many plugins are optimized to be fed a -18dBFS signal, especially analog models. Any buss processing would also be hit with a hot signal coming in.
Great video, what I notice is that -18 dbfs equals -12 in your peak meter in Studio one daw`s channel fader. So, is this correct and can I guide by this rule equally as VU meter gain staging? (sorry for my complex English :D
You shouldn't use peak meters for most gain staging application since they don't measure average (RMS) level. They're good for leveling transient-heavy sounds, but not for anything with sustain. Some DAW's allow the channel meters to show both RMS and peak levels, so you could skip the VU meter in those cases.
@@GreenLightSound thanks ✊ and what about balancing? Have you had a some kind of (general) cheatsheat how to balance main elements in the mix? Or maybe maximum levels cheatsheat
So, should you record HOT and then 'gain stage' before mixing? (makes perfect sense btw); or record with the VU meter at around Zero Db ? (instead of pushing the gain).
If I were doing the recording digitally I would aim for the VU meter being in the 0 to +3 range (-18 to -15 dBFS). That should give you plenty of headroom for transients, no issues with the noise floor, and the tracks would pretty much be ready for mixing. There still exists a mentality from the analog days that tracks should be recorded as hot as possible without clipping, mostly due to noise concerns with analog equipment and tape. Most of the tracks I get are still recorded this way, so I use the technique in the video when I'm getting ready to mix. But if I were doing the recording myself, I would just start with conservative levels. Thanks for watching!
Either way would work. Studio One has since added a trim knob to the channel itself, not as a separate plugin, so I do it that way now. I explain that workflow here: th-cam.com/video/SqfxziSgZqY/w-d-xo.html
I'm not really looking for a specific level there, and I never move the master fader. Just leave some headroom for mastering. Thats where the loudness maximization will be applied if you want it.
I've been messing around with this technique in ableton. With Kick, bass and 'louder'' elements it's quite easy to dial it in to -18dbfs (0 on the VU meter)... however when i'm doing this with drums (transient rich materials like snares/hihats/etc.) - the VU meter is barely even moving. It will peak around -15 on the meter, then I turn the volume up with a gain plugin, but it never reaches the 0 on the VU meter. I will have to recalibrate the VU meter to -20 or something to get a good response with drums. SOoo what am I doing wrong here??
You're not doing anything wrong, and this is a common problem with transient-heavy sources. The VU meter's ballistics are simply not fast enough to react to the transient, and the sounds aren't sustained enough to get a good average level. In this case, I just use the peak meter in the DAW and have peaks hitting around -6dB or so.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks for the fast response! So when you are mixing transient heavy materials, a VU-meter is not very useful? And as you are saying, in that case it's better to use the peak meters in the Daw?
@@GreenLightSound thank you! Im trying to gain stage this awfully reverbed track rn and wondering what will make it louder but more clear versus stacking up output volumes that are reducing its clarity
Thank you for this informative video! I have a question. When I get my vocal levels to around -12 to -18 dbs on my pro tools pre-fader meter as many suggest when recording at 24 bit to get the cleanest signal I only get around -11 to -8 on the UV meter , not 0 which would equate to -18dbfs "the sweetspot". To average around that 0 on the UV meter I have to crank up my pre amp gain ( Neve 1073 500 LB) considerably which brings up the floor noise and takes me past the -12 to -18dbs mark on the pre fader. With that being said how would you get your vocals to come out around -12 to -18dbs on the pre fader meter while averaging around 0 on the UV meter? THANK YOU Vocal chain- Pro tools 2019 U87 NEVE 1073 500LB (Hardware) TUBE TECH CL1B (Hardware) UAD ARROW
Are you trying to get the top (peaks) of Pro Tools meter readings to hit -18 to -12? Since they're peak meters they will behave differently than a VU meter which measures average level. What about the Tube Tech meter? I think you can set it to read input gain rather than gain reduction. Is that hitting around 0?
I can get the peak meters to hit -18 to -12 into Pro tools (pre fader meters). But when I check my average in Waves VU meter plugin I don’t get near zero at all. The Tube Tech has an input / compression/ output switch that can be changed. Currently I have it on compression which is showing me the gain reduction. So your saying to change it to Input to check the averages for my DBFS on the VU meter?
I think the confusion here is between the types of meters. The Pro Tools meters are peak meters, and if they are hitting -18 to -12, the VU meter will read much lower since it's checking for average level and not reacting to quick transient peaks. If you're around 0 on the VU meter and the peaks are around -6 on the Pro Tools peak meter, you should be in good shape. Check the Pro Tools meters too - if you right click on them you can set them to different types of metering. You could also flip the Tube Tech to input to check input levels on its VU meter. Then switch it back to GR to set your compression.
Hey Joe, thanks for the informative video. I'm currently using TBProAudio for my meters (also free). When mixing, should I have the meter set to Peak, or RMS? also there are several RMS functions (RMS -20, RMS -14, and RMS -12), should I stick with RMS -12? That seems the be the one which best corresponds to mixes I reference and when mastering what Slate calls a healthy master, which is between -10 and - 8 in accordance with his mastering plugin.
Definitely set the meter to RMS or VU when mixing. You also want to make sure you don't confuse the processes of mixing and mastering, which will have different loudness standards. I go for an RMS level of about -18 dbFS on the VU meter when mixing. The TBProAudio VU meter should be able to be calibrated to that level. Also, your mixes should definitely be quieter than any mastered material you're referencing against. Just bring down the level of the reference tracks to your mixing level, or use a reference plugin that matches level for you. Once your mix is done, then you can move to the mastering phase and bring the level up to the -10 or -8 level Slate recommends, though how loud to make your masters is a topic of debate and will vary according to genre. Thanks for watching!
Hi ! I have a quick question please help 🙏♥️ What should I aim for if the VU meter hits zero but on the track channel level shows that the sound actually clips ? TY so much
It's probably a transient-heavy source like drums that is too fast for the VU meters slow ballistics. In those cases I use the channel peak meter and aim for peaks no higher than around -6dBFS.
First off... great video. Thanks! Ok... here's my question... after I've gone through what you're showing... I have all tracks routed to a bus. I have the console shaper enabled on the bus, and VU meter on that. I use the output on the console shaper to insure that the combined track levels that are routed to the bus are hitting untity gain (which they should be). However... I now want to add a VCA. When I add a VCA to control track and automation volumes... the VU meter on the bus goes up or down from unity gain. How do I tackle this? Do I add the bus to the VCA as well?
I wouldn't have the buss be controlled by the VCA too. Assuming that you are shooting for unity gain on a VU meter (-18dBFS) after the console shaper, there should be plenty of headroom to allow for gain changes from a VCA.
Sorry for my ignorance, but if I have a VU meter on my buss and all of tracks are routing to said bus... the buss will indicate an overall signal strength. If I did things correctly... I should be pretty close to 0db on the meter. This will then feed into my main output. If I don't tie the buss to the VCA... the VU meter on my bus goes either way up or way down as the VCA is adjusted. This high or low signal will then feed into my main and I'd need to trim it. Correct? If this is correct... why would I use a VU meter on my bus in the first place? Sorry for my confusion, but it's not clicking with me.
Maybe I'm not understanding the question too, but I wouldn't even use a VU meter on any of my busses, just individual tracks. The VU meter reading on the buss will always be a bit higher than on each individual track that is fed to it anyway. If you gain stage each individual track, then do a rough balance with the faders, you shouldn't need to trim into your main outputs, even with VCA adjustments.
Hey! Nice video! I have a question regarding first model of Klanghelm's VU meter. When compared with Studio one meter it did not show the same reading when set to -18. The metering on Klanghelm was lower in value than Presonus VU meter. So I'm confused which one to use to hit plugins for sweet spot. Please help. Thanks!
Turns out the Presonus VU meter is actually a peak meter (I wish they would change the name!), so go with the Klanghelm to hit the -18 dBFS sweet spot.
I was wondering what the difference is using the mix tool to raise/lower the gain. I also use studio one and I do most of my volume mixing on the audio files themselves anyway, but I was wondering if using the mix tool is somehow worse than using the volume on the audio clips. does it make a difference to the quality of the audio?
I put the VU meter on each track. If you put it on the master buss only, you'll get different results for mono and stereo tracks, with the mono tracks coming in at a lower level on the master channel than on the individual channel. It's more reliable to put one on each track, then get rid of them once you get your levels. Thanks for watching!
Can I use the Vu meter plugin only on the master buss and solo each track and adjust to that instead of having an insert on all channels? And also should the final mix read -18dbfs on the master bus? If so isnt that pretty low? having that much headhroom. And also does this affect the sound quality?? Thank you very much!
You will get different results with mono vs stereo tracks if you use the VU meter on the master buss, so it's best to insert the meter on every channel. The mix definitely won't be at -18dbFS on the master since all of the tracks will sum together there. You just want to make sure you leave yourself about 6dB of headroom.
Have you done a rough mix first? If you leave all your faders at unity gain you might be pushing too much level into the master fader. That being said, I generally try to leave about 6dB of headroom on the master fader which would definitely push a VU meter calibrated to -18dBFS into the red.
What range would you have your drum bus at on the vu meter and what would be the relative db level for example would your drum bus read -12db (overall)
I usually only use the vu meter on individual tracks, not busses. The bus level will be influenced by your fader positions, processing, etc. An average around -12 dB on the drum bus should be plenty safe.
Question... If you balance every instrument set to gain at 0 VU wouldn't you be pulling the faders quite low on the hi hats (and more present instruments with high mids and highs) due to the apparent noise difference in high frequency instruments and low frequency instruments. I always find when I gain everything out at 0 VU I end up with the high frequency instruments riding the bottom of the faders? Thank in advance!
Right, the high hats are often really low on the fader if I use them at all. But that's OK because I usually don't automate the HH track. If I did need to, I could just use a VCA to give more precise fader control. Other instruments will be brought down a bit when mixing, but not riding the bottom.
This has to do with VU meters being frequency dependent. Also transient dependent. I haven't gotten expected results by putting all instruments at 0 (i.e. -18dBFS). But it helps as a guideline. ALSO, if all tracks are at -18 (0 on the VU), your mixbus will be substantially higher. Other Mix engineers will talk about a final mix based on -18dBFS RMS levels (with room for transient peaks), and my mixbus is too loud if all tracks are at 0 VU.
Right, your stereo buss will definitely be too loud of you leave all the faders at 0 (-18 dBFS) after you do this. The next step would be a rough mix, where some of the faders will be brought down to balance out the tracks. Once you do that, you should have plenty of headroom.
Not quite sure what you mean but I'll assume you're referring to busses or the master fader. Since you probably won't be leaving every fader at unity gain, I would wait until after you get a rough mix to check levels on your busses. There should be enough headroom when using this method, but you could also use a trim plugin on busses to bring the signal down so it hits 0dB on the VU meter. Just keep in mind that averaging -18dBFS on your master buss would equate to a very quiet mix, and you'll have to do some processing to get the mix up to a competitive level.
hi there, just wanted to clarify. you are leaving the mixers faders all at zero first, but changing volumes on actual vst with the instrument while referring to VU meter to hit 0. then you would go on to mix with the faders to taste and then leave -6 db headroom on master. correct? just wanted to clarify these basic steps because i plan to mix and master my own songs =). super appreciate your help and clear instructions! and here flowers for you 💐
You still need to do a rough mix after gain staging, plus some of the transients could be jumping through. Make sure any transient heavy sources like drums have peaks no higher than -6dBFS.
Let me ask u this!! I used the VU meter on each track before and after my plugins! If on each track or should I say a single track ..the VU meter is in the red after my plugins...it’s too loud??
Probably too loud. Try to use the output gain on your plugins to match the input volume as best you can. A VU meter in the red isn't necessarily bad, but if all of your tracks are a lot louder after processing it will overwhelm your busses. Plus you could be fooled with "louder is better" processing.
Green Light Sound what would be the best way to see or hear what sounds are clashing? My problem is I believe, my ears! I’m not hearing what others may hear.
Use a spectrum analyzer that compares tracks, like Melda Production's MMultiAnalyzer or the built in analyzer in Fabfilter's Pro Q3. They both can communicate between tracks and show any potential frequency masking.
if I was recording using a guitar plugin would I place the VUMT before or after the guitar plugin to gauge my proper level? I notice the readout differs if I place it before or after?
After the guitar plugin. The best way to do it would be to find the guitar sound you're looking for, commit to it and print it to an audio track, then gain stage as described in the video.
@@GreenLightSound On a similar note, when mixing with Analog-modeled plugins like SoundToys or Slate's, should you be checking metering after the effects? I always find metering helps to get a good sounding mix, but then my master channel will be coming in pretty hot, with not enough headroom.
@@elijahpantoja6211 You certainly can, but I would suggest you really try to match levels with the output gain of your plugins after processing. You should be able to maintain levels that are close enough to the rough mix to leave ample headroom.
Wouldn´t been easier to put just ONE VU METER on the DRUM BUS instead of on each single channel????? Or does it make a difference??? Anyhow... great video and thanks for sharing buddy!!! God bless
I'm still trying to get my head around what my signal level should be when mixing - I'm getting myself really confused. Firstly - why do you calibrate to -18? And is that -18db RMS?
You set your levels at -18 on a VU meter for a few reasons, but mostly because many plugins operate best when fed that input level, and to leave yourself plenty of headroom on your channels, busses, and stereo buss. VU level is an average level, so yes, it's -18 RMS. You will still have peaks that jump well beyond that level on a peak meter, depending on how transient-heavy and dynamic your source is.
Right, any instrument with lots of transients/peaks is tough to handle. If you aim for the -18dBFS average level, your peaks are probably too hot and are clipping the channel, or close to it. The VU meter isn't especially helpful with quick transients because of its slow reaction time. I usually check the peak meter (on your DAW channel) for percussive sources and try to have the peaks hit around -6dB. If you have a source with lots of transients and you still want to bring the level up, try something like a saturator/clipper/tape emulation to soften the peaks. In the past, tape did a great job of this.
I would check the metering mode. VUMT has three different modes - VU, RMS, and PPM DIN (Type I). VUMT Deluxe has even more modes. That could account for the different readings.
Thanks for the reply. I tried the different modes and still get strange results. I now have LVLMeter, VUMT and VU meter running at the same time. LVLmeter I had to set to -24 dBFS to get the same result. And for VUMT, I set 'CAL' to -22 to get the same result. Just trying to understand how it works before putting this into the workflow. To test I have MDAtestone sending a pink noise signal at -12dB.
Try a sine wave at -18. Presonus' Tone Generator plugin can do this, and the Presonus VU meter is exactly at 0 VU when it's set to -18 and receiving a -18 sine wave. VU meters are calibrated with sine waves, not pink noise.
It because Presonus are not a VU, it's PPM meter. That's why it will show the right RMS value when triggering by -18db sine wave and will show absolutely different values on a real track in comparison to VUMT. Don't know why Presonus fool so many people with this (
You won't get the same levels if the VU meter is on the master buss. Mono and stereo tracks will yield different results than if they're placed on each individual channel.
It works with VST tracks as well, but I usually wait until the mixing stage to gain stage with a VU meter. At that point, any VST/Instrumental tracks should be bounced to audio. It definitely works for EDM, or any genre really. Your plugins and DAW don't care what style of music is running through them - the sweet spot is still around -18dBFS. You can always add gain later.
Green Light Sound thanks mate. That was always a questionable point for me.. I always wondered if you are gain staging with VU meters, that only works for any genre- with mostly real instruments in play.
Green Light Sound thank you for your quick reply! It’s really appreciated! & can you also use it as a reference for when you’re adding compression or EQ’s on a track so that you’re always at -18dbfs / 0db?
@@marksantos2837 You could, but once you set the raw tracks to -18 you don't really need to as long as you try to match output level on any EQ/Compressor you use. Most plugins have input and output meters that can be used to match levels. If you make sure that your plugins don't add gain, you should be around -18 regardless of processing.
Great episode! I wonder when you start a new tracking session is it a good idea to set the gainstage (as a tracking templet) at let's say minus ten dB on every audio track to leave enough headroom to you prevent yourself from clipping. While leaving the faders at zero dB. The way it was done in the analog days? Hope I made sense of what I mean. Would love a tutorial on Brainworks DSM V3. Thanks aGain.
I really love that I'm seeing more and more videos like this appearing in my feed. To me, it shows that the digital audio engineering and production community is taking their sound quality a lot more seriously, and that people are realizing the things we did in the "analog days" are still very relevant. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Best explanation of gain staging I've seen. Thank you.
Thanks!
I've gotta say thank you, you are the first person to explain again staging & I understood instantly. I applied to a track I recorded, & bam! My song sounded tons better....
Great explaination, no hassle just straight to the point!
Nice explanation about much needed gain staging. Thanks
Great video, really explained it simple and correct way. Seen vids people do 'gain staging' moving faders or setting the master channel -18dbFS.
This was super helpful! Between the video and you answering commenter's questions, it cleared up a lot of confusion I had! Thank you sir!
Glad to help! Thanks for watching.
Thank you very much,recently I bought a vu meter,and I'm mixing my music in a digital recorder.Your video was very helpful
Glad it helped!
Wow, thank you - such clear explanations. I started 30 years ago on a 4 track tape machine, but never understood these 'numbers' until today. Big thanks your way ;-)
Happy to help. Thanks for watching!
Ok I think is a great video, as I have been using meters for quite some time . Just wondering I was always led to believe you want your drums and bass to accumulate up to 3 db and because your low end will take up a lot of headroom so then you have 3 db to allow for vocals instruments and compression.
loved it ...kinda knew something about the 'sweet spot'..but had never taken the time of day to 'explore it' rather i'd just let it go by year after year as a 'half cocked idea that i knew something about, but then knew nothing about ......that's very different related to what i know now...i'd been gain staging tracks in ableton and in cubase and now in studio one, but it was all about getting around -18db but now i 'get it' with calibration it makes a 'whole pile more sense'...and better sounding mixes will come as a result.....dug this tutorial as well as the gain staging in 4.5
Glad it helped - thanks for watching!
So glad I found you. Nice website too! Learned a lot. Thanks.
Your videos are so helpful thank you
Why so many sources talk about -6dB headroom before mastering? The most important thing is that it shouldn't be clipping and even if there is 0.5dB headroom after mixing, you can always lower the levels without any consequences, if there is no actual clipping. And if your stems are saved in 32bit floating point, then even clipping is not an issue to some extent. Am I wrong?
I think the default calibration for Slate VTM is -15dBFS=0VU, but it’s adjustable. The screenshot in their manual shows -15dBFS even though the text next to it says -18dBFS.
-18dBFS=0VU is a solid option for gain staging, but a LOT of analog modelled plugins don’t use that particular definition. Some can be -8 or -12 or -14, some are -24. Annoyingly it’s never consistent so you just have to check plugin to plugin.
What happens when your drum peaks are like -6 digital DAW scale but the general average level of the drums is like -30db?
Now gain staging makes more sense to me. Put the fader to zero and adjust the wav file till it hits 0 /-18 on the VU meter.
I have been wrongly adjusting the channel faders up or down to get to the right level. 😟
I am assuming when you record a track the same thing applies adjust the gain on your interface until the signal hits -18 / 0 on the VU meter you have placed on each track? Or do you record at say -12 and adjust the wav file back to -18? 😀
You still use the faders after you gain stage to get a balance in the mix, just don't use them to gain stage. How hot to record is a matter of debate, but I prefer a -18dBFS average level with peaks no higher than -6dBFS or so on the channel's peak meter.
Hi Joe, you enlightened me a lot. Thank you very much.
Just one point to know more about as adjusting an instrument (e.g. trumpet) which is playing from very low to very high volume, something like performing crescendo in orchestration. In this case which part of this piece of music shall be measured at 0dB, the silent or the most loudest one? Thankssssssssssssss!
That's a tough one since orchestral instruments have such a large dynamic range, but generally the loudest parts should be around 0 dB, with peaks as high as -6dB on a peak meter. If it's a full orchestral or jazz mix, the levels will tend to be much lower than a typical pop recording.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks🙏🏻
Thanks for the video! My question is should I leave 6 dB of headroom in peaks or 6 dB of headroom in RMS for mastering?
Don’t worry much about the number! Just don’t clip the output ! Even at 0.1 is ok if the mix sounds good to you! Just print that file and later if you master it just decrease by 5.9 to start implementing processes!
@@Mixedbyjojo355 thanks for your reply!
i set my vu meter to 18 got that right with the K but before i go on i notice on my track db it's about -6 should i turn the input control down more to get -12? i have studio one pro-5.4? and when i am down i tend to turn track vol down to about -10
RMS at -18dBFS with peaks around -6 should be fine for most sources.
@@GreenLightSound ok thank u i sent an email to you also from your website asking a few more things about GS so thank u
This is a great tutorial man, well explained.. Do you adjust the gain of the actual audio piece of the track itself? Thanks
Right, clip gain adjusts the actual audio. Thanks for watching!
I’ve seen people level out their tracks starting with the most important elements around that sweet spot. Then they start raising the other elements around the kick bass and main vocal. What is the benefit of having every single track starting at -18. As opposed to the first method I mentioned. Even in your video. You start everything at -18. Then you have to lower the high frequency elements anyways. I get the feeling you have a reason for doing it the way you did
Mostly because many plugins have a "sweet spot" for input level around -18dBFS.
Green Light Sound okay well now I run into the issue of. Should I keep my faders at zero and use trim/gain plugins to handle volumes. The faders have higher resolution at the top and I like keeping them higher in case I need automation. I’m so sorry for bombarding ylu
You don't need to keep your faders at zero unless you want to. I usually gain stage like this first, then use the faders to create a rough mix. If some of the faders are too low in their travel, then you could certainly use a trim plugin instead. But I usually find that a track whose fader is that low isn't a candidate for automation, or I'll automate with VCAs.
@@GreenLightSound thank you for all the help
@@SG-ig2eu Glad to help!
Thx for that great tip 👍🏾! Know I have to gain staging every single thing like percussion’s, drums...Thx for that!
My question: shoul i use gain staging after eq/compression or befor? Thx!:))))
Definitely before any eq/compression processing.
Exactly - use the plugin output to match the input as closely as possible. I don't use a meter for this, just check by ear.
Yes nice video man , nice concept with gain staging but How do I do my gain staging with a heavy distorted guitar tone van halen style . If I lower the input gain I'm losing the bite i'm looking for
This video applies to mixing, after you capture the guitar sound. Gain staging a guitar rig is a different topic. By all means turn it up to get the tone you want.
@@GreenLightSound no im using amp sims right ?
2nd so i am gain staging a live snr and on the track db it's at 0 sometimes goes over so i put a vu meter on the track i see its at 0 but that means its good if i gain control on that track and turn the track db down to -6db then it will read right i guess but if i do that it will be supper low on the vu meter that on the track so i am at a loss with this using a vu meter thing?
The snare transient is too fast for the VU meter to react in time. In this case, just use the peak meter in your DAW and have the snare peaks around -6dBFS.
ok so how does this work if i can only use the VU on some things so the only i am getting are the numbers that change?
Seasons greetings Joe and thanks for this excellent video. As the faders are now all at 0dB, using the kick drum as your guide to build the rest of the kit, what dB level would you move the kick fader down to? The other question I have would be concerning the wav clip volumes. Would it make sense to normalise every clip to -3dB and then adjust the faders, or if that would be too hot, would you perhaps drop the clip prints to -6dB. The point here being to get a uniform clip volume to help with better gain staging. What would then be your chosen drum busses and in what order would you place those afterwards? Thanks and look fwd to your advice!
Seasons greetings! I really don't have a specific kick drum dB level in mind when I start the rough mix. I start by bringing all the faders down and pulling them up one at a time. Kick, snare, bass, and vocals are usually at or near unity gain with peaks no higher than -6dBFS. Other tracks are often lower than that, but it depends on the source material. Since I gain stage manually I never normalize the audio, but I suppose you could use peak normalization on transient-heavy tracks to make sure they don't exceed -6dBFS. VU meters don't react fast enough to register short, percussive material so I usually rely on my peak meters with peaks no higher than -6dBFS. Not sure I understand your buss question, but I have a buss for every major instrument group and I rarely move the faders at the buss level. If they are moved, it's usually just a dB up or down from unity gain.
@@GreenLightSound Hi Joe and thanks for your reply. A 'go to' setting for gain staging would be an ideal basis to proceed from in any project. My thinking was that if the files aren't loud enough to begin with, its not a good foundation for gain staging. So there must be an ideal value? If all files are normalised to -1dB, then that would be too hot. Too low a value means a big push on the faders, so setting to 0dB on a VU meter is a good plan as shown in your excellent video! I was interested to know how many aux tracks you might add yourself, as opposed for example, to only one buss loaded with different plugins. I'd go for one aux per job, starting with all drums to a stereo gain bus with some EQ and tape emulation on it,, then a separate buss for parallel compression and lastly another for reverb. Would love to get this gain staging set up as a routine procedure, beginning with a uniform stem gain value.
Hello there.
Great video content.
I've got a question about the gain stage subject...
When you hit " 0 " in a vu meter, which is equivalent to -18 db ,why should you use a vu meter in the first place?
You could easily do the same thing by lowering the gain of each individual track, by simply checking the pre fader metering?
Am I right?....
Cheers.
Depends on the meters. Most DAW channel meters are peak meters, which are not good at reading average level. If your DAW has an RMS option, you can then use your channel meters to gain stage and skip the VU meter. Studio One supports this now, and that's how I do it.
@@GreenLightSound thanks for your reply.
I use Logic Pro X, which supports RMS .
I just want to say that I've learned so much from this video so thank you for this!!! I do have a question tho. What does it mean when the VU meter is reading -18 but the actual channel is clipping or near clipping? This happened to me in Logic Pro X using a sampled clap.
Claps and other percussive material have such a fast transient that the VU meter can't catch it in time. Get your peaks on the clap to hit about -6dBFS on a peak meter (like your channel meter in Logic) and you should be good.
@@GreenLightSound Same problem here. Some sample at 0 dBVU nearly clio on the master. But what if I have a transient rich sound and have it peak at - 6dBFS as you suggested, does it still hit the sweet spot on the analog modeled plug-ins? It shouldn't, right? I mean cause they are calibrated to - 18 dBFS. I don't understand the logic of this.
Nice video. Is there a reason to have VU meters on individual channels rather than just the Master channel?
Different results on the master channel.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks for responding :) So is it a basic gainstaging issue or? Is there somewhere we can discover what that difference is, good sir?
Hey Greenlight awesome video. A Quick question, where did you get that VU meter? I also have studio one but don't seem to have that plugin.
It's free but isn't included with the standard install. Get it here: shop.presonus.com/VU-Meter
Great video- you do this for all tracks???
I do.
Great explanation. I have a question. Once the gian stging is set with th UV meter, there are plenty of plug ins like compressor or eq thta affets the sound. Should we measure the UV post effects or is it not necessary?, or should we measure it directly after the effects?. Thanks!
I usually gain stage with a VU meter before any other processing. Just try to match the input and output signals with you EQ/comps, unless you specifically want to add gain.
@@GreenLightSound And if you route previous masured tracks to a bus, that bus has to be controled by a VU too?, I mena, once the 4-5 guitar trackas are measured individualy, are sent to a bus. In that bus shoul we put a VU meter to control the whole bunch?. It happens actually that they are like 2 or 3 db abobe 0 but I don´t know if it really matters.
@@israelsastre4496 I don't use the VU meter on busses, but you certainly can. Remember, still need to do a rough mix with your faders, so your buss levels probably won't be that hot after that.
@@GreenLightSound great!
thanks
so confused, I gainstaged my 808 to hit 0 on the meter, however that then only leaves me with -1.0 db of headroom on my stereo out.... sooooo am i missing something? because i know im supposed to leave -4 - -6 db of headroom?
Anything with quick transients like an 808 will be too fast for a VU meter's slow ballistics. Use a peak meter for 808s and have your peaks around -6db.
Thank you for the great video - thinking about gain staging put my whole process of producing to a new level. I tried to apply your instructions to a current project of mine. It works for nearly everything, besides one part: i have a melodic element with very much transient and nearly no sustain. If i level it to 0db on the vu meter the audio-clip-preview clips heavily, the same for doing it by a separat gain utility. Since the signal is peaking: is it still a good idea to send this peaking signal to any plug-in coming afterwords or should i go at transienty sounds more for leveling with a peak meter to 0db?
Thanks in advance!
The problem with VU meters and transient-heavy material is that the meter doesn't respond quickly enough to get an accurate representation of the actual level of the transient. While slow meter ballistics and RMS average metering are good things for most material, in your case I would check it with a peak meter so that the transients are peaking somewhere in the -6dbFS range. The should give you enough headroom so you don't clip your plugins.
Thank you for the fast reply and the explaination! Definitly following your chanel from now on.
Hi there, great tutorial, thanks for posting it.
I'd like to ask you, how to gain stage after my song is recorded.
Thanks a lot.
After your tracks are recorded, you gain stage as described in the video. Then you can start mixing, keeping levels in mind as you mix.
Hey! i know im late but can this be also done for vocals?
Absolutely.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks for the quick reply! Great video btw and so are all your videos!
Thanks
You're welcome!
I am still trying to understand about this. Is the "sweet spot" present in every plugin? For instance, are the stock DAW plugins also modeled from analog gear so they do have a sweet spot?
Depends on the plugin. Anything modeled on an analog piece of gear will likely have an optimal input level around -18dBFS, or 0 on the VU meter. Many analog-style plugins have a VU meter built into the interface that you can set to input level to check. Strictly digital plugins, like most stock EQ's, don't really have a sweet spot since they're not modeling the non-linearities and saturation/THD often apparent in analog gear. But your mix will still benefit from gain staging even if you don't use any analog modeled plugins.
Could you set up a separate stereo bus for metering (with no routed output so the mix bus/master doesn’t overload) and set up a send on every track PRE fader at 0db and achieve accurate metering results? That way when you solo a track it would show the level of said track pre fader?
The only reason I suggest this is to minimise flicking through plugin windows for each track.
You might be able to achieve similar results, but your mono tracks would not have the same values on the stereo VU meter on the metering buss. Plus, you would still have to solo each track anyway. The track's plugin window opens automatically when I scroll through them in Studio One, so I'm not sure it would save much time or effort.
Great video - many thanks. Very clear.
I tried adjusting a "snaps" track that was just below digital zero clip
at -0.1db, but only -9vu. How would that work with this system? Also a tambourine was -30db peak meter but not
even reading on the vu meter at below -20vu. How to you set these
types?
The VU meter is too slow for tracks with really fast transients. Use a peak meter instead (like the one on your DAW channel) and have the peaks max out at around -6dBFS.
I’m sincerely asking because I don’t know. Wouldn’t it be best to do this before recording? As in…getting the right gain at your interface.
Absolutely. But few people record that way.
excellent presentation -- all good!
What about a signal that is lower than zero on the VU meter. Does this signal need to be gainstaged to zero, making it louder?
Depends on the source. If it's not something you want to highlight in the mix, you can just leave it alone. If it was an important element that was just tracked too low, I would bring it up.
thx for explanation, pretty good one :) i have a question, may you can answer it :)
i use the vu meter from klanghelm, setting are -18db, but why or what is the reason, when i turn down my feders pre or post feder, doesn't matter which one, it is still showing some activities on my vu meter? if i put the vu meter not on my single chanelstrip, if i put it on my stereo out and i turn down my faders it stops showing me movements. i don't understand why? thx for helping me
br
The fader is after the channel processing, so the VU meter will still show signal even with the fader down, and moving the fader up or down won't change the levels on the channel VU meter. Pre and post fader usually refer to the sends, not the individual channel processing. When you put the VU meter on your stereo out, it's reading the signal feeding into it post individual channel faders, so it will change depending on individual channel fader position.
Awesome video Joe, When recording/ tracking. What input record DAW level do you record at -6, -12, -16, -18 db.. Thanks!
I like to track with RMS levels around -18dB and peaks around -6. If you do that, you should be able to skip this step entirely before mixing as your levels will already be properly set.
Thanks!!!!@@GreenLightSound
Hi i have few questions.
1. Could i use vocal rider plug in for automation after doing gain staging using vu meter from waves?
2. Can i adjust the gain in individual plugins like compressor or exciters or the output must be same as input like you mentioned.
3. I am recording my own songs at home and exporting final track myself. Do i must keep master level to -6db for final track or i can let it go till -1 as long as not clipping. Reason being my track sounds quiet compared to songs out there and i am using L2 maximiser on master bus.
Thanks for great video!
I'll try to answer in order.
1.Yes, you could use Vocal Rider but I would use it as a last step after all your other processing (EQ, comp, etc.). Automation is usually applied after your channel processing is done.
2. The output doesn't have to stay the same with your plugins. It's just a general tip. If you start to add gain with every plugin, you will quickly run out of headroom.
3. Try not to confuse mixing with mastering. Your mixes will always be softer than a mastered commercial release. I would print your mix, then apply the mastering processes like limiting to bring the track up to a competitive volume.
Thank you!
Very interesting video !!
I have one question please, what could be the approach of gain stage for buses ?
Let’s imagine I want to use a compressor on my guitar bus (3 guitar tracks) and the plug in has a sweet spot at -18dbFS/0vU.
So okay, at the beginning my three individual guitar audio files have been trimmed to be at 0dBVu.
On the guitar bus, those are the faders of the three tracks that set the « new audio input ». Can we imagine to set the Vu meter at 0dBVu / -18dfFs on the bus track ?
And then reach « the -6dB » on the mix bus by the gain stage of all buses ?
Is it possible to have a balance song by using this method ?
How to deal with buses ? Any ideas ?
Thanks :)
After you gain stage each individual channel, you will then create a rough mix by moving the faders. I've yet to mix a song where every mix element is as important as every other, and all the faders stay at 0, so the levels hitting the buss are not the same as they were after the initial gain staging. Once I get the rough mix, I often find I'm in the ballpark for correct levels hitting each subgroup and my mix buss. If not, I can always use the input control on the buss compressor to hit the sweet spot.
If your using a trim meter underneath plugin should you still have a VU meter at the top of the plug-in chain on every track including master track? When you say set it at -18 db so you mean literally set the view meter to -18 DB inside the meter itself? Or do you play the track and watch the needle and turn it up the volume or down the volume to get the needle towards zero in the view meter? Thanks
The VU meter is for setting levels before plugins. You calibrate it to -18dBFS and try to get the needle near 0.
@@GreenLightSound why is VU before the plug-ins? Because the plug-ins are going to add their own gain leveling stage could you please expand on this?
So you gainstage your midi instruments and drums, only after you've rendered them to audio?
Right.
But why not just take the drum bus down so that all drums are around -18dbfs together?
You could still overload plugins on each channel by doing that. Many plugins are optimized to be fed a -18dBFS signal, especially analog models. Any buss processing would also be hit with a hot signal coming in.
@@GreenLightSound gotcha
Great video, what I notice is that -18 dbfs equals -12 in your peak meter in Studio one daw`s channel fader. So, is this correct and can I guide by this rule equally as VU meter gain staging?
(sorry for my complex English :D
You shouldn't use peak meters for most gain staging application since they don't measure average (RMS) level. They're good for leveling transient-heavy sounds, but not for anything with sustain. Some DAW's allow the channel meters to show both RMS and peak levels, so you could skip the VU meter in those cases.
@@GreenLightSound thanks ✊ and what about balancing? Have you had a some kind of (general) cheatsheat how to balance main elements in the mix? Or maybe maximum levels cheatsheat
@@TheAliosha123 That's the next step, getting a rough mix with the faders.
So, should you record HOT and then 'gain stage' before mixing? (makes perfect sense btw); or record with the VU meter at around Zero Db ? (instead of pushing the gain).
If I were doing the recording digitally I would aim for the VU meter being in the 0 to +3 range (-18 to -15 dBFS). That should give you plenty of headroom for transients, no issues with the noise floor, and the tracks would pretty much be ready for mixing. There still exists a mentality from the analog days that tracks should be recorded as hot as possible without clipping, mostly due to noise concerns with analog equipment and tape. Most of the tracks I get are still recorded this way, so I use the technique in the video when I'm getting ready to mix. But if I were doing the recording myself, I would just start with conservative levels. Thanks for watching!
@@GreenLightSound thanks. yes, I'm recording to PC and pushing the gain close to 0 dB. I will use the VU meter next time and turn the levels down. :+)
wait so should you bring down the gain of the Audio clip of put a trim plugin on the channel?
Either way would work. Studio One has since added a trim knob to the channel itself, not as a separate plugin, so I do it that way now. I explain that workflow here: th-cam.com/video/SqfxziSgZqY/w-d-xo.html
Hey man nice vid , but why you use Vu meter when you can adjust the levels at -18dBFs with clip gain?
I am adjusting with clip gain. The VU meter is just showing me when I get to -18dBFS with clip gain.
What level o you want your final master to be at? And what if its too low? Just turn up the fader???
I'm not really looking for a specific level there, and I never move the master fader. Just leave some headroom for mastering. Thats where the loudness maximization will be applied if you want it.
@@GreenLightSound OK. That is useful and reassuring - many thanks
iain
I've been messing around with this technique in ableton. With Kick, bass and 'louder'' elements it's quite easy to dial it in to -18dbfs (0 on the VU meter)... however when i'm doing this with drums (transient rich materials like snares/hihats/etc.) - the VU meter is barely even moving. It will peak around -15 on the meter, then I turn the volume up with a gain plugin, but it never reaches the 0 on the VU meter. I will have to recalibrate the VU meter to -20 or something to get a good response with drums. SOoo what am I doing wrong here??
You're not doing anything wrong, and this is a common problem with transient-heavy sources. The VU meter's ballistics are simply not fast enough to react to the transient, and the sounds aren't sustained enough to get a good average level. In this case, I just use the peak meter in the DAW and have peaks hitting around -6dB or so.
@@GreenLightSound Thanks for the fast response! So when you are mixing transient heavy materials, a VU-meter is not very useful? And as you are saying, in that case it's better to use the peak meters in the Daw?
@@pianolight5 Exactly.
Yes, i love using vu meters
Question: When you bring down the "waveform" volume is that technically the input volume?
It actually lowers the level of the audio itself, but it will be the input volume of the first plugin you have on a given track.
@@GreenLightSound thank you! Im trying to gain stage this awfully reverbed track rn and wondering what will make it louder but more clear versus stacking up output volumes that are reducing its clarity
Would the VU be on the master bus or an aux channel?
The VU meter is on every channel, not the master.
What's the difference between the right and left meters?
If it's a mono track they are the same. For a stereo track, they are meters for the left and right channels.
Thank you for this informative video! I have a question.
When I get my vocal levels to around -12 to -18 dbs on my pro tools pre-fader meter as many suggest when recording at 24 bit to get the cleanest signal I only get around -11 to -8 on the UV meter , not 0 which would equate to -18dbfs "the sweetspot". To average around that 0 on the UV meter I have to crank up my pre amp gain ( Neve 1073 500 LB) considerably which brings up the floor noise and takes me past the -12 to -18dbs mark on the pre fader.
With that being said how would you get your vocals to come out around -12 to -18dbs on the pre fader meter while averaging around 0 on the UV meter? THANK YOU
Vocal chain-
Pro tools 2019
U87
NEVE 1073 500LB (Hardware)
TUBE TECH CL1B (Hardware)
UAD ARROW
What VU meter are you using to check levels? They can be calibrated differently.
I used WAVES VU meter plugin.
Headroom is labeled 18 which I believe is suppose to represent -18dbfs as far as calibration purposes.
Are you trying to get the top (peaks) of Pro Tools meter readings to hit -18 to -12? Since they're peak meters they will behave differently than a VU meter which measures average level. What about the Tube Tech meter? I think you can set it to read input gain rather than gain reduction. Is that hitting around 0?
I can get the peak meters to hit -18 to -12 into Pro tools (pre fader meters). But when I check my average in Waves VU meter plugin I don’t get near zero at all.
The Tube Tech has an input / compression/ output switch that can be changed. Currently I have it on compression which is showing me the gain reduction.
So your saying to change it to Input to check the averages for my DBFS on the VU meter?
I think the confusion here is between the types of meters. The Pro Tools meters are peak meters, and if they are hitting -18 to -12, the VU meter will read much lower since it's checking for average level and not reacting to quick transient peaks. If you're around 0 on the VU meter and the peaks are around -6 on the Pro Tools peak meter, you should be in good shape. Check the Pro Tools meters too - if you right click on them you can set them to different types of metering.
You could also flip the Tube Tech to input to check input levels on its VU meter. Then switch it back to GR to set your compression.
Hey Joe, thanks for the informative video. I'm currently using TBProAudio for my meters (also free). When mixing, should I have the meter set to Peak, or RMS? also there are several RMS functions (RMS -20, RMS -14, and RMS -12), should I stick with RMS -12? That seems the be the one which best corresponds to mixes I reference and when mastering what Slate calls a healthy master, which is between -10 and - 8 in accordance with his mastering plugin.
Definitely set the meter to RMS or VU when mixing. You also want to make sure you don't confuse the processes of mixing and mastering, which will have different loudness standards. I go for an RMS level of about -18 dbFS on the VU meter when mixing. The TBProAudio VU meter should be able to be calibrated to that level. Also, your mixes should definitely be quieter than any mastered material you're referencing against. Just bring down the level of the reference tracks to your mixing level, or use a reference plugin that matches level for you. Once your mix is done, then you can move to the mastering phase and bring the level up to the -10 or -8 level Slate recommends, though how loud to make your masters is a topic of debate and will vary according to genre. Thanks for watching!
@@GreenLightSound -10 and -8 is what is it vu or rms or something else
@@VikashKumar-bv2ol RMS and VU are basically the same - they represent average level.
@@GreenLightSound it means when we maximise our song at final step it should show -10 or -8 at vu is it so
@@VikashKumar-bv2ol That could be the level of a mastered song.
Hi ! I have a quick question please help 🙏♥️ What should I aim for if the VU meter hits zero but on the track channel level shows that the sound actually clips ? TY so much
It's probably a transient-heavy source like drums that is too fast for the VU meters slow ballistics. In those cases I use the channel peak meter and aim for peaks no higher than around -6dBFS.
@@GreenLightSound Thank you so much for your help, your videos are amazing ♥️
First off... great video. Thanks!
Ok... here's my question... after I've gone through what you're showing... I have all tracks routed to a bus. I have the console shaper enabled on the bus, and VU meter on that. I use the output on the console shaper to insure that the combined track levels that are routed to the bus are hitting untity gain (which they should be). However... I now want to add a VCA. When I add a VCA to control track and automation volumes... the VU meter on the bus goes up or down from unity gain. How do I tackle this? Do I add the bus to the VCA as well?
I wouldn't have the buss be controlled by the VCA too. Assuming that you are shooting for unity gain on a VU meter (-18dBFS) after the console shaper, there should be plenty of headroom to allow for gain changes from a VCA.
Sorry for my ignorance, but if I have a VU meter on my buss and all of tracks are routing to said bus... the buss will indicate an overall signal strength. If I did things correctly... I should be pretty close to 0db on the meter. This will then feed into my main output.
If I don't tie the buss to the VCA... the VU meter on my bus goes either way up or way down as the VCA is adjusted. This high or low signal will then feed into my main and I'd need to trim it. Correct? If this is correct... why would I use a VU meter on my bus in the first place? Sorry for my confusion, but it's not clicking with me.
Maybe I'm not understanding the question too, but I wouldn't even use a VU meter on any of my busses, just individual tracks. The VU meter reading on the buss will always be a bit higher than on each individual track that is fed to it anyway. If you gain stage each individual track, then do a rough balance with the faders, you shouldn't need to trim into your main outputs, even with VCA adjustments.
Green Light Sound thank you! I watched another video, and could have sworn that I saw them add VU to the buss. This is where I was getting confused.
Thanks so much !
Hey! Nice video! I have a question regarding first model of Klanghelm's VU meter. When compared with Studio one meter it did not show the same reading when set to -18. The metering on Klanghelm was lower in value than Presonus VU meter. So I'm confused which one to use to hit plugins for sweet spot. Please help. Thanks!
Turns out the Presonus VU meter is actually a peak meter (I wish they would change the name!), so go with the Klanghelm to hit the -18 dBFS sweet spot.
I was wondering what the difference is using the mix tool to raise/lower the gain. I also use studio one and I do most of my volume mixing on the audio files themselves anyway, but I was wondering if using the mix tool is somehow worse than using the volume on the audio clips. does it make a difference to the quality of the audio?
I don't think it makes a difference in audio quality. It's just an extra step because you have to put the mix tool plugin on every track.
Great video. Do you put the VU meter on the master and solo each channel or put VU plugin on each track please?
I put the VU meter on each track. If you put it on the master buss only, you'll get different results for mono and stereo tracks, with the mono tracks coming in at a lower level on the master channel than on the individual channel. It's more reliable to put one on each track, then get rid of them once you get your levels. Thanks for watching!
Green Light Sound - Great, thanks. I'll give that a try 👍
Green Light Sound - thanks.👍
Would like to know that as well.
Because of Pan law?
Does VU meters recognize midi as well or is it only good for calibrating audio files?
I would bounce any midi to audio before gain staging and mixing.
Can I use the Vu meter plugin only on the master buss and solo each track and adjust to that instead of having an insert on all channels?
And also should the final mix read -18dbfs on the master bus? If so isnt that pretty low? having that much headhroom. And also does this affect the sound quality?? Thank you very much!
You will get different results with mono vs stereo tracks if you use the VU meter on the master buss, so it's best to insert the meter on every channel. The mix definitely won't be at -18dbFS on the master since all of the tracks will sum together there. You just want to make sure you leave yourself about 6dB of headroom.
@@GreenLightSound awesome!! Thank you very much bro!!! ))))
After gain staging, I put put VU meter on the Stereo Out (Master) Channel and the VU meter enters the red zone, please how do I deal with that. Thanks
Have you done a rough mix first? If you leave all your faders at unity gain you might be pushing too much level into the master fader. That being said, I generally try to leave about 6dB of headroom on the master fader which would definitely push a VU meter calibrated to -18dBFS into the red.
Hi, can I use a vu meter to gain stage fast transient sounds like a clap, hat, or short kick? Thanks!
Not really. Use a peak meter like the one in your DAW and make sure the transients peak around -6 or so.
What range would you have your drum bus at on the vu meter and what would be the relative db level for example would your drum bus read -12db (overall)
I usually only use the vu meter on individual tracks, not busses. The bus level will be influenced by your fader positions, processing, etc. An average around -12 dB on the drum bus should be plenty safe.
Thanks
Very informative, and thanks for sharing about the free VU meter, just saved 39.00
how so?
I have Kramer Tape and it has a VU meter and it's calibrated to -18. The information shared in the video made me take a look at my plugins
Question... If you balance every instrument set to gain at 0 VU wouldn't you be pulling the faders quite low on the hi hats (and more present instruments with high mids and highs) due to the apparent noise difference in high frequency instruments and low frequency instruments.
I always find when I gain everything out at 0 VU I end up with the high frequency instruments riding the bottom of the faders?
Thank in advance!
Right, the high hats are often really low on the fader if I use them at all. But that's OK because I usually don't automate the HH track. If I did need to, I could just use a VCA to give more precise fader control. Other instruments will be brought down a bit when mixing, but not riding the bottom.
I appreciate the speedy response. Im a self taught mixer and I always thought I was doing something wrong when I was bringing them so low. Thank you!
This has to do with VU meters being frequency dependent. Also transient dependent. I haven't gotten expected results by putting all instruments at 0 (i.e. -18dBFS). But it helps as a guideline. ALSO, if all tracks are at -18 (0 on the VU), your mixbus will be substantially higher. Other Mix engineers will talk about a final mix based on -18dBFS RMS levels (with room for transient peaks), and my mixbus is too loud if all tracks are at 0 VU.
Right, your stereo buss will definitely be too loud of you leave all the faders at 0 (-18 dBFS) after you do this. The next step would be a rough mix, where some of the faders will be brought down to balance out the tracks. Once you do that, you should have plenty of headroom.
great tutorial.
should the whole tracks playing together also go under 0 db in the vu meter thanks
Not quite sure what you mean but I'll assume you're referring to busses or the master fader. Since you probably won't be leaving every fader at unity gain, I would wait until after you get a rough mix to check levels on your busses. There should be enough headroom when using this method, but you could also use a trim plugin on busses to bring the signal down so it hits 0dB on the VU meter. Just keep in mind that averaging -18dBFS on your master buss would equate to a very quiet mix, and you'll have to do some processing to get the mix up to a competitive level.
Thanks boss. Well explained.👑👑👑
hi there, just wanted to clarify. you are leaving the mixers faders all at zero first, but changing volumes on actual vst with the instrument while referring to VU meter to hit 0. then you would go on to mix with the faders to taste and then leave -6 db headroom on master. correct? just wanted to clarify these basic steps because i plan to mix and master my own songs =). super appreciate your help and clear instructions! and here flowers for you 💐
That's how I do it. Sounds like you're on the right track. Thanks for watching!
When I gain staged each instrument the vu meter on my master is still peaking. Why is that?
You still need to do a rough mix after gain staging, plus some of the transients could be jumping through. Make sure any transient heavy sources like drums have peaks no higher than -6dBFS.
@@GreenLightSound thank you! I’ll try that!
so this is the first thing youre doing before mixing? (before inserting plugins etc.)
Yes
@@GreenLightSound Thanks! love your channel
Let me ask u this!! I used the VU meter on each track before and after my plugins! If on each track or should I say a single track ..the VU meter is in the red after my plugins...it’s too loud??
Probably too loud. Try to use the output gain on your plugins to match the input volume as best you can. A VU meter in the red isn't necessarily bad, but if all of your tracks are a lot louder after processing it will overwhelm your busses. Plus you could be fooled with "louder is better" processing.
Green Light Sound ok thanks
Green Light Sound what would be the best way to see or hear what sounds are clashing? My problem is I believe, my ears! I’m not hearing what others may hear.
Use a spectrum analyzer that compares tracks, like Melda Production's MMultiAnalyzer or the built in analyzer in Fabfilter's Pro Q3. They both can communicate between tracks and show any potential frequency masking.
Green Light Sound ok thanks
if I was recording using a guitar plugin would I place the VUMT before or after the guitar plugin to gauge my proper level? I notice the readout differs if I place it before or after?
After the guitar plugin. The best way to do it would be to find the guitar sound you're looking for, commit to it and print it to an audio track, then gain stage as described in the video.
@@GreenLightSound On a similar note, when mixing with Analog-modeled plugins like SoundToys or Slate's, should you be checking metering after the effects? I always find metering helps to get a good sounding mix, but then my master channel will be coming in pretty hot, with not enough headroom.
@@elijahpantoja6211 You certainly can, but I would suggest you really try to match levels with the output gain of your plugins after processing. You should be able to maintain levels that are close enough to the rough mix to leave ample headroom.
Wouldn´t been easier to put just ONE VU METER on the DRUM BUS instead of on each single channel????? Or does it make a difference??? Anyhow... great video and thanks for sharing buddy!!! God bless
It does make a difference. You get different results vs inserting on every channel.
You can have it on the stereo out bus or the drum bus if you have all the faders on 0, and no plugins insert on the tracks.
I'm still trying to get my head around what my signal level should be when mixing - I'm getting myself really confused. Firstly - why do you calibrate to -18? And is that -18db RMS?
You set your levels at -18 on a VU meter for a few reasons, but mostly because many plugins operate best when fed that input level, and to leave yourself plenty of headroom on your channels, busses, and stereo buss. VU level is an average level, so yes, it's -18 RMS. You will still have peaks that jump well beyond that level on a peak meter, depending on how transient-heavy and dynamic your source is.
Cheers mate. I've done some digging since and got my head around gain staging etc a bit better. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
Great explanation!
So input controls are alternative of mixtool?
Yes, but a stripped down version. Mixtool offers a few other features, especially the stereo version.
Does the same approach apply if you are using one shot drums/midi in hip hop?
Awesome video!
It does, but I would bounce the midi to audio first.
Green Light Sound yes! Thank you :)
When I use this technique with Klanghelm plugin calibrated @ -18, my percussive instruments are way too loud, not like your clips. I’m lost
Right, any instrument with lots of transients/peaks is tough to handle. If you aim for the -18dBFS average level, your peaks are probably too hot and are clipping the channel, or close to it. The VU meter isn't especially helpful with quick transients because of its slow reaction time. I usually check the peak meter (on your DAW channel) for percussive sources and try to have the peaks hit around -6dB.
If you have a source with lots of transients and you still want to bring the level up, try something like a saturator/clipper/tape emulation to soften the peaks. In the past, tape did a great job of this.
Ironically to get the true -18dB setting with Presonus VU meter you have to set it to -12dB and maximum sensitivity...
I wonder what fool gives a thumb-down on such great information!?
Why not have vu meter in the master bus?
You certainly could. I just focus on individual channels here since you can't use clip gain on busses.
When using VUMT, in presonus, calibrating the VU meter to -18 is not the same as -18 on the presonus VU meter. Is this supposed to bet the case?
I would check the metering mode. VUMT has three different modes - VU, RMS, and PPM DIN (Type I). VUMT Deluxe has even more modes. That could account for the different readings.
Thanks for the reply. I tried the different modes and still get strange results. I now have LVLMeter, VUMT and VU meter running at the same time. LVLmeter I had to set to -24 dBFS to get the same result. And for VUMT, I set 'CAL' to -22 to get the same result. Just trying to understand how it works before putting this into the workflow.
To test I have MDAtestone sending a pink noise signal at -12dB.
Try a sine wave at -18. Presonus' Tone Generator plugin can do this, and the Presonus VU meter is exactly at 0 VU when it's set to -18 and receiving a -18 sine wave. VU meters are calibrated with sine waves, not pink noise.
It because Presonus are not a VU, it's PPM meter. That's why it will show the right RMS value when triggering by -18db sine wave and will show absolutely different values on a real track in comparison to VUMT.
Don't know why Presonus fool so many people with this (
OMG you are the man!
Wasn't it easier to just put a VU on the master and check each channel? Btw amazing tutorial :)
You won't get the same levels if the VU meter is on the master buss. Mono and stereo tracks will yield different results than if they're placed on each individual channel.
Does VU metering helps gain staging the vst sounds or just recorded non EDM sounds ? Works for every genre ?
It works with VST tracks as well, but I usually wait until the mixing stage to gain stage with a VU meter. At that point, any VST/Instrumental tracks should be bounced to audio. It definitely works for EDM, or any genre really. Your plugins and DAW don't care what style of music is running through them - the sweet spot is still around -18dBFS. You can always add gain later.
Green Light Sound thanks mate. That was always a questionable point for me.. I always wondered if you are gain staging with VU meters, that only works for any genre- with mostly real instruments in play.
So you’re always aiming for 0 on a VU meter?
Yes, as a first step in gain staging. I also calibrate the VU meter so that 0 = -18dBFS
Green Light Sound thank you for your quick reply! It’s really appreciated! & can you also use it as a reference for when you’re adding compression or EQ’s on a track so that you’re always at -18dbfs / 0db?
@@marksantos2837 You could, but once you set the raw tracks to -18 you don't really need to as long as you try to match output level on any EQ/Compressor you use. Most plugins have input and output meters that can be used to match levels. If you make sure that your plugins don't add gain, you should be around -18 regardless of processing.
Great episode! I wonder when you start a new tracking session is it a good idea to set the gainstage (as a tracking templet) at let's say minus ten dB on every audio track to leave enough headroom to you prevent yourself from clipping. While leaving the faders at zero dB. The way it was done in the analog days? Hope I made sense of what I mean. Would love a tutorial on Brainworks DSM V3. Thanks aGain.
So do I need to adjust any settings or can I do -18db straight up when I load the plugin ? Thanks
You'll need to adjust the scale setting to 18. After that, you can save it as your default setting and it will always start there.
AWESOME
What DAW is that man?
Presonus Studio One Professional
The funny part is that you introduce the noise with the plugin, then you should be careful to get the best signal to noise ratio. :)