Gain staging ITB actually does improve mix quality when going through plugins. I have tested this thoroughly and is especially true for eqing. If you are doing drastic boosts with EQ for creative sound design purposes, you get a much cleaner result if the incoming signal is quiet. My mixes sound more full when utilizing gain staging during the signal chain. If a signal is too hot and causing inharmonic distortion within the plugin, the sum of all the distortion will be great when the full mix hits the limiter to bring the volume back up. I use a lot of Acustica Audio plugins and I can definitely say that there is a big difference in clarity and fullness of my mixes when I use gain staging mixing techniques especially going into these plugins. I believe it is also genre dependent too. Do some experiments yourself and see if it A: improves your mix. B: improves your workflow
Thanks for the tip! I just watched a Dom Sigalas video about GS & he convinced me to take it easy going in to give my plug-ins plenty of headroom and especially freeing up headroom on the Master Bus. i come from tape recording, and recording hot trying to get a high signal-to-noise ratio is a hard habit to break. All the Best.
Fully agree with this. Granted, there's no "absolute" when it comes to gain staging, like the whole -18dB thing I see a lot of content creators mentioning, but pushing too much signal through plugins or busses does make the job of getting a clean mix more difficult. Even still, I suggest for people who don't have the experience to know where they want to gain stage to have the kick peak somewhere around -9dB, and build everything else around it. Then just make sure the signal coming in to the master track is peaking no higher than -6dB for mastering and everything is good. How they choose to get to that number is up to them (faders, busses, etc.)
Gain staging isn't quality as far as I've ever heard of. It's more for workflow and the chance to speed the mix up at the end of the process and therefore maybe making more money. Your general message is spot on, blown way out of proportion. I prefer your way, set your inputs correctly before you track your finals. At the same time, I still use gain staging if I see a Track that looks like it's not setting around relatively the same level. If they're all close or somewhat similar, I don't even bother. Great video. I think this is the 3rd video I've seen from you now. Your putting some great advice out there.
I think the point that people are trying to make with the emphasis on gain staging, is that for people who are recording and mixing their own music. And if you have proper gain staging from the beginning it just streamlines the process, and save you a lot of time and headaches...
All good info on gain staging. Only issue with using the 'all' selection to pull down the faders is this will effect the level going to sub groups and your mix buss. Therefore your compression/saturation/effects won't have the same relationship when you pull down the faders.
@@hardcoremusicstudio It could be good to mention. You show the mixing part, that and the production is two separate topics. But many like me use hardware today. I hit as loud possible without noise on lowest volyme and not cliping when recorded. That works. And in my case gain make a difference wirh UAD. But if you dont feel or hear, that you analog gears at some level, adds a lot of noise you should perhaps do something else ;)
Why master bus shouldn't be clipping? I clip my master bus on purpose to gain loudness and mantain the punch from drums. The peaks are clipped though printing the track to wave file. Try it
@@TheKevbe I just go about it a different way. But "clipping the master" is a very different thing from someone experienced to someone starting out. They could see red and just assume it's the right thing. But I clip my drums before they hit the master.
@@TheKevbe Respectfully, I'm assuming you are mixing through analog gears? If you're mixing digitally all you get from clipping your master bus is digital distortion. Analog and digital gears treat clipping signals very differently.
@@carlito.pedida-personal Not at all, I mix 100% ITB. Clipping is done on the master bus by pushing the master fader. There is point where the distortion is obvious and sounds bad as anything pushed too hard. Clipping the wave file is the "purest" clipping as you can get and it sounds most natural to me without any coloration. It works mostly on rock oriented music with drums and you want to only shave drums peaks, without touching the harmony. Basically it's like clipping your converters but it stays in digital domain. It may cause inter sample peaks but they are part of the sound and you will find them all over the top chart hits from the last 20 years.
I agree. Personally, I like the idea of gain-staging to at least get all the instruments outputing at the same level when all the mixer tracks are at "unity" so I can literally hear everything at once. In my projects, without gain staging, there can be so much going on as I layer things on top of other things that some sounds just get so lost and buried that I forget they're there because I can't hear them anymore. I was having trouble mixing my current project. I went back and just gain-staged everything and the transformation was like magic even with all the faders at zero. So I haven't even actually mixed it yet and it already sounds better than it did with a sans-gain-staging mixing attempt. Additionally, I like being able to look at the mixer and know that if one slider is lower than another, then the sound coming out of it is actually lower. Without gain staging, I might have a mixing fader set at 25%, but it's louder than another fader that's at 90%! To me, that just makes the whole mixing process confusing and harder to manage. In short, this video didn't convince at all to stop fussing over gain staging. Maybe it's not necessary, but for me, it's still useful. After all, there's certainly no harm in gain staging. If it works, just do it.
@@phaneserichthoneus8895 "I like being able to look at the mixer and know that if one slider is lower than another, then the sound coming out of it is actually lower" faders are not for that. That's what METERS are for. Feels like you're new to all this...
@@victorbicudo1374 No, I'm not new to it. But the nice part about a DAW is that there's nothing wrong with setting up your faders to work like that if you want to. It's hard to be super-exact due to the dynamics of each sound, but I'd rather have them set up so there's roughly the same level of sound coming out of each mixer track if all the faders are at the same level.
Who actually says that setting your tracks to a specific level (e.g. -18db) is going to “fix” your mixes? I’ve listened to many people talk about gain staging and never heard this. Feel like this is a straw man argument. Some good points in this video though. Thanks!
@@Nullllus He's right, you know... Go ahead and clip every plugin in your chain and clip your busses and your master... Go ahead. See how amazing it sounds, moron.
This is why your channel is so educating without all the can't do this don't do that bullshit. quiet as kept this is exactly the way I've been going about. I was getting so much push back that my music would suffer if I wasn't doing this exact scientific method that's all over the TH-camrs channels. I thought engineering was a unique individual creating their own sound. Hardcore you're spitting the true gospel keep up the great work and thanks for all you do for the recording fam. I've been a scriber since I ran into this specific video. anyone searching for any other video dealing with gain staging just STOP IT!! this guy can't put it any simpler. Gain staging isn't a big deal afterwards.
I feel like shooting for -12 db. on the input has helped me get better mixes easier. I'm a complete beginner but when I started doing that I got much better results. But thanks for the knowledge brother!
I think many aspiring mixers get into this side of audio because of how cerebral it can be. And while there are technicalities in mixing, it’s good to remember that it’s nothing precious and to approach the mix pragmatically vs theoretically
its not hype... most "analog" replicated plugins shoot for -18 LUFs, and yes you can push them like real gear. its idiotic to record your audio any lower. better to lower the clip volume than boost it. you can literally do what you do by normalizing all the clips to -18..
This just took away so much underlying stress in regards to leveling and gain staging you're the best J, truly, thank you for this (years of stress gone). Keeping being you, you're appreciated out here :)
At last! A voice of reason! My background is from mixing with tape when it was all about signal to noise and getting the most out of gear with instabilities. I've been working with DAWs in the way that you describe in the video for many years but have recently doubted myself thanks to all of the gain staging videos out there. I can now go back to mixing with confidence.
Great to hear, that somebody has a different approach to this topic as most guys on YT. I agree on the recording part and your point on fader resolution is also a great opinion... but I realy disagree on the part that GS doesen't make any differents between a "amatuer" and a "pro" mix and is not that important. Not saying that you have to gain all your tracks to -18dBVU or somthing is the key.. but allmost every time I've worked with "hobby-producers" mixing their own stuff, the problem was no understanding of GS. The "just turn down the masterfader" approach often leads to a - turn everything on channels up, turn the master down and slap a limiter on thing. (Protools is a special thing there; Most other DAWs got prefader inserts on the masterfader!) Example: most software synths put out a level near 0dBFS so one cant hear the bass and drums anymore - turn everything up past 0, masterfader down - but then it has to be louder to bounce it - limiter on... and the result is a wobbly bass mess. I think it's your experience with GS (and floatingpoint calculation.. not everybody knows how to abuse it in a positive way) wherefore you don't need to think about it and get hot levels sounding right.. and tbh you said that you know the level just hitting the yellow is how you want it - that's the essence of every "pros" GS approach.. -> Gaining all tracks (or Group Inputs like eg Joey Sturgis) to a more or less fixed level with a sort of input gain, so your 2Bus isn't exploding and buscompression/limiting doesn't turn out into a basketball like sound. ..so I don't think you're busting any myths there.. Summarized I like your approach on this topic because it is mostly a convenience thing how you like your levels and faders with floatpoint DAWs nowadays and you're not telling that it's a must to gain to a strict level X/Y! But I find it necessary to understand what GS is about and not just leave it as nonsense. Then you can make your own thing out of it and thats the key, in my opinion.
Very useful information. Thank you. I am an amateur bedroom mixer, and I'm learning along the way, but I definitely feel like I'm making nice progress.
4:34 take the hint from the programmers! 0VU = (+4dBu or -10dBv) = 1kHz Sine wav @ ref voltage = -18dBFS = 85dbSPL(A) @ 1m unless you have a high end ADC which specificly declares a higher maximum input voltage and you can set the calibration voltage to -20dBFS or some other standardized reference level. The correct way to think about gain structure is that all devices in your signal path should clip at the same time. To maximize the S/N ratio, the system designer should choose equipment which supports the same maximum input and output level with similar nominal operating level AND headroom. For example, a "Pro" preamp often has a max output level of +26dBu and outputs a balanced signal at +4dBu. If one drives the input of a converter which also has a maximum input level of +26dBu with a nominal operating level of +4dBu over a balanced line, the correct equipment has been selected. If the ADC only handles a max input level of +18dBu the additional output range of the preamp has to be attenuated and this compromises the dynamic range of the system. Now consider an ADC which supports a max input level of +26dBu with a nominal level of +4dBu. The nominal level is far below the maximum range which allows a much more precise level of measurement over the voltages than can be achieved when operating closer to the max limits. The same is true with a converter which accepts a max input level of +18dBu and this (and because of number of additional design improvements) is one large reason why more expensive converters typically sound better than cheap converters and its also exactly the same reason DAW engineers should record with more headroom, especially on cheaper digital gear. Anyone using a 24 bit converter has zero reason to record with less headroom than the manufacturer anticipated. Only people recording directly to 16bit mediums should even consider the effects of quantization distortion (when low voltages are inaccurately sampled due to a lack of resolution in the digtal scale). The best thing a novice engineer can get out of this is (in extremely general terms) that an audio system designer should always choose equipment with the same operating capabilities throughout the entire system and that the weakest link defines the system's capabilities.
@@sebastiandordoni2268 If you're going to put engineer in the title of your name you should know about the numbers. You better not be calling yourself an engineer if you can't figure this shit out. Or maybe you'll back pedal and say you're a musician so it doesn't matter and I'm just talking to a wall because you're going to take it personally.
sebastian dordoni but IS science. You’re the only one talking about rockets. Lol. All these letters and keys. Lol who cares about music theory. You must be a rapper. 🤣
@@wienerstein2817 and who said i present myself as an engineer? To call myself and engineer would be an insult to the real ones with decades of experience, i'm only saying people don't care what preamps or at what levels you recorded, if the mix sounds good that's all that matters, leave the ultra technical matters to the elistists and gatekeepers
Hey Jordan, on my current journey in the world of recording I finally ran across a video that just makes since. It’s a million videos about how vital gain staging will make your mixes sound more professional. But after hearing some of your finished products I became more convinced that the gain staging rhetoric bs must be mythical after all. Actually I’ve been mixing this way since I got into the game and everyone thought I was doing this major gain staging thing. All I was really doing was the same method you’re doing in this video and the mixes turned out quite exciting. I’m not recording rock or metal but that doesn’t mean you can’t apply your teachings to other genres. Thanks for all you do for the recording community. Keep up the great work Jordan. As the late great movie critics Siskel and Ebert would say two thumbs up!!!!!
Great video that makes 100% real world sense. I’m newer to home recording but had a few studio experiences 20+ years ago and things have changed greatly. Wonderful video, cheers!
This is so timely for me. I am diving in deeper in my transition from anolog mixing mindset to Daw mindset. This resonates well with me. Thanks for the clarity and transparency!
Thanx man! All this "GS" buzz gave me headache for a looong time. Now it would be great to make a video related to the "RMS/Perceived Loudness". I mean what is the ''modern standard'' for loudness now? Some say -20dB, some say -14dB, some say -12dB or even -10dB is OK. But how one can make the track LOUD ENOUGH and LOUDER in a RIGHT WAY without too much limiting? And THANX for the book! It's more than awesome!
-14 LUFS *EDIT: Assuming you are making music, be it pop, rock, hardcore, that is anyway gonna end up in streaming services. These services either lower or pump up your volume levels to their standards (which of each service btw has pretty much their own). -14 Loudness Units Full Scale is a good middle ground. Not a law, but around that.
That's actually WHY I normalize all of my tracks to -18db and trim them back down if the plugin adds any more gain; because if I need a track louder, I can always push it up above zero and not worry about clipping. And if the mix as a whole needs to be louder, I add gain with my limiter on the master buss.
If we're talking about music, the current standard is -14 LUFS. Spotify, for example, will actually turn your music down if it's louder than that. All of the main streaming platforms are doing this, which is the main way people listen to music now. Izotope, a company known for mastering plugins, have also adopted this by setting -14LUFS as the default target in Ozone, their main mastering plugin. I'm sure there will be debate about this, but I'm literally stating facts here, not an opinion.
Alex Davies exactly why I said if we are talking about music. The AES is a recommendation, not the standard in music streaming platforms. For example, SoundCloud has no limits at all which is why you hear loud tracks on there all the time. Again, most music is being consumed by platforms like Spotify which is using the standard I stated. If you’re making a mix for tv broadcasting that would be different, which again is why I used Spotify and Izotope as my reference.
Thank you for saying what many of us know; gain staging is bullshit. Stayed my career in Neves and SSLs. I recorded hot then and these days so long as it sounds good it stays on the record. The most important thing is having good ideas
I've been taught that keeping the fader as close to unity as possible in a DAW is because of resolution.... nothing to do with noise or the analog world.
* Raises hats by 20 dB * now you have trap music. I don’t want to dog on this guy, but based on the sample song, it seems like he just makes wall-of-sound, everything turned up to 11, every instrument is shouting type music. What about music that has... you know... dynamics?
if there is noise in the room and you are micing a voice or an instrument there will be noise picked up (air, mechanical, subway rumble, fans , air conditioning, etc can all be picked up by a mic- so if there is any noise in a home studio-- Id want to record my signal fairly hot, but like you say - not into the red.
Gain Staging all my tracks really gave my mixes width and depth. All my processing opened up, and I use less processing - both analog and digital. Andrew Scheps has blazing levels, I do not. The topic of Gain Staging ITB is subjective. Not objective. Including Gain Staging into your work flow is simply a matter of preference.
Not quite true. First of all if you have calibrated monitors with good gain adjusments you can realy tell what is loud and what is not. Also you need proper gain staging even between plugins on the track if you want to make proper mix comparison with and without plugins.
You don't need to gain stage digital plugins in your DAW. Gain staging was important when you were recording into a mixing board into analogue tape. If your gear is digital, then gain staging doesn't matter as long as you'tr not redlining and you're leaving enough headroom for other elements of your mix.
@@aiden_macleod I'm not saying that you need to gain stage plugins. I'm saying that you need gain stage for comparison between with or without plugins.
I disagree. Some people think they need to Gain Stage no matter what. I'm saying that if you're producing in the Digital realm, Gain Staging is unnecessary.
Just out of curiosity, who online is telling people to record digitally as hot as possible? I haven't seen any of this hype online... Secondly, why not keep your faders close to Unity? Professionals try to keep them closer to unity for the scaling/resolution. A lot of us do care about that without using a hot key. Gain staging into "analog" plugins like the slate digital stuff makes a huge difference, for better or worse, as you say sometimes it adds aggression. (Edit: pulling down the master fader is a terrible idea surely? The fader is post FX, so if you are limiting, your whole mix master will be quiet) I don't think that professionals are ever stressed or worried about gain staging, but to simply ignore it as unimportant seems a bit dangerous to me? Surely we want the next generation coming though into mixing to be able to retain some knowledge from the greats that came before us and at least understand why it's important to gain stage, in the box or not?
Respectfully, I think you're missing his point. He clearly says, "don't record so low that you can barely see it on the screen and don't record so hot that you're clipping." That covers everything you have an issue with. No, there aren't a bunch of people online telling people to record digitally as hot as possible, but there are A TON of youtubers showing videos of them spending entirely too much time getting "the right" levels going into the master or a bus. It's not necessary to spend that much time gain staging when, like we all agree, you just turn down all of the tracks. The focus should be to just balance your levels of the mix, not where the mix is hitting when summed together. Once you have a good balance, you can adjust the entire mix up or down as you please. When it comes to analog modeled plugins, use your ears. Depending on your sound and the plugin, there isn't going to be an exact number to even set your pregain to. No matter what level you gain stage to, you're going to end up changing the input/output anyway. This clearly isn't a video about "professionals" worried about gain staging in the box. This is about youtubers making videos that are wasting your time. Also, a point about using ctrl or cmd for more control over the resolution...even at full resolution, I'm still using the hot key because I can adjust the faders with slower action. So it's not just about the resolution. It's about the actual control/action of the fader itself. I love your videos, been a long time fan. But I really think he has a good point with all of the mess that's out there about the amount of time youtubers spend on gainstaging in the box, before getting straight to balancing a mix.
Actually 5-6 years back I saw many videos and blogs about "How Important Gain Staging" . Dunno where those videos are and a lot of good channels (like FL NOOB ZONE) have been shut down now. In a nut shell, you don't need to worry about gain staging in a 32-bit floating point engine (Which all modern DAWS are). The only time you need to worry about it is in when using specific analog model plugins and amp model as these plugin are deliberately made to clip (analog clipping) at certain levels. Other then that, using stock plugins, you dont need to worry about. Also most of the plugins have input/output knob (I guess this is gain staging too haha) so, there is really nothing to stress about.
Lots of people, especially new starters fail to understand the difference between GAIN and FADER of a channel. If a fader could do all the levelling, why have a gain knob at the input of the channel? It has nothing to do with noise, especially when mixing In-The-Box.
@@inthemix For me it depends. If I use only stock plugins (which I do most of the time) all my individual channels go into red. I just turned down the volume in the master channel. Its not that "we don't need to" it is just not as important as it was in the analog domain. I am sure you have read this but its was posted on Slate Audiophiles and I agree along the lines with this. blog.groove3.com/articles/ge7psa9gdwsljaieldmma59rmap7tq -Kenny Gioia (S Club 7, Many Moore, etc.) noisefloorav.com/gain-staging-know-shouldnt-stress/
Hey man, I love you! I love your straightforward approach, I love your philosophy, I love the way you explain and simplify things. Your mixes sound so powerful. Thank you for all the advice and for all the effort. Thank you, man, for everything! The best possible channel for audio production!!! ❤
At 00;04:00 you talk about 'resolution'. Do you know that digital audio DOES have a noise floor ? In a 16 bit environment it's -96 dBfs. That's how it is. No debate. Therefore if you're not near 0 dBs, your S/N ratio deteriorates by 6 dB per bit of resolution. If you're mixing at -18 dBs, your S/N ratio slips from 96 dBs to 78 dBs. And of course you know that every bit of resolution equals 6 dBs. Even if you're processing at 24 bits internally, your output to CD is 16 bits deep. So yes, just like us old timers, proper gain staging means EVERYTHING. Get that wrong and your whole mix is noisy. Unless you're recording at 32 bit floating point, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
It's so funny that the moment I came to write the comment about analog modelled plugins, you started talking about it I'm still a nerd about making sure signals are at -18 dbFS when the fader's at unity gain before doing any processing. Ended up making it a habit & I just haven't stopped
Kenny Gioa of Reaper fame did a great video of this were he intentionally clipped a track by something absurd (like 100db or something) and demonstrated the same thing: the 32bit floating point systems have essentially unlimited internal headroom.
I agree with most of your videos man, but on this one I do recommend to get started with 0 db input on all console emulations, THD and V-Gain turned off (bx-consoles). Also I say start using the bx-consoles, only they emulate the slight channel differences across the board, making a HUGE difference. I dont say I have the truth but we need to stay truthful to what a console really is especially when the results show it. Run them on your tracks, busses and parallels, run them on the parallel busses of your instrument and vocal bus ("rear busses") and on the bus where you glue drums and instruments together. learn the sound from there. it is gonna save you yeeeeeaaaaaars. when you really know that sound, then start tweaking input, output and THD, noise buttons. AND: try out adding INPUT AND OUTPUT GAIN DIGITALLY, it sounds different from the consoles input and output gain knobs, i often prefer the digital gain options.
it’s just for tracking and final mix. your mic, board/interface, cables, etc have analog noise and interferences. high input without messing with the spl of the mic, no clipping, and you’re golden. in the daw doesn’t matter at all. track, bus, master. can be wherever without clips.
At 00:3:00 you mention 'turn up the fader as much as you want without introducing any more noise." This is incorrect. If you record at-18 dB your noise floor rises from -96 dB to -78 dB. If you raise that level to 0 dB from -18 dB, your noise floor remains the same, just like in the analogue world. Bill P.
In your explanation of "back in the day", it's not true that faders would be at zero when recording, unless the signal had to go through the fader - as in when the signal was being fed to a group before going to the recorder. In the 4 consoles I worked on between 1977 to 1985, any single channel that was going to a single track only went through the input preamp and then perhaps through the equalizer, which had its own amplifier to make up the gain lost if the eq was passive. The signal was controlled for, as you suggested, the maximum signal to achieve the desired sound and not include unwanted noise. Sometimes a gate would be inserted before the signal went to the track. The fader, which is only a passive device and hence "unity" effectively took its existence out of the circuit, only affected what I listened to in the control room, after the tape recorder. Panning and reverb/effects sends followed the fader in individual channels, as did the master buss. Some consoles did not work this way, wherein the fader did affect the signal to the tape recorder, but they weren't very desirable, at least not in the studios I worked in. The most important thing about gain staging in today's hybrid recording environment, imnsho, is to understand it enough to know in what circumstances it's important and the effect of it on achieving the sound one wants. In a single piece of very popular gear, the tube guitar amp like a Fender VibroChamp, gain staging plays a part - or, understanding it allows one to get more control of what goes through it. Knowing where the volume control is in the circuit plays a big part in getting the most out of that very simple circuit. The volume pot follows the first gain stage, meaning it has no control over what is coming in at the input jack. That first gain stage is set, and one can only affect its behaviour by increasing or decreasing the signal being fed to the input of the amp- effectively, the closer one can control how close that first stage can get to the point of breakup, allows the player a much fuller playing experience. The gain of the output tube is also fixed in that amp, meaning only the voltage of the signal going through it could be adjusted, by the single volume control and the tone controls. If you were to work in a studio with an analogue console you weren't familiar with, the block diagram for that mixer becomes very important. With that, you can see where the gain stage are and make more informed, predictable use of that mixer. As for emulation plugins and the small type where the maker mentions what level to apply to its input as a starting point, ignoring that means one is not really interested in emulating the original, analogue behaviour - which is subjectively is fine, but the result would probably not be as accurate as the money spent on the plugin represented.
With regards to unity on the faders. the gain reduction is exponential as you go down the fader (in Ableton for example) it acts in a way as a limiter and you can squash/lose dynamics by having all faders pulled down hard. By gain staging in channel and keeping them closer to zero there's much less dynamic loss
Now at the end when you said, "to sum it all up..", should I be summing up my conversations at -18dB or is there another level you feel would be punchier?🤣 Sorry. Loved this video, thanks for the calming voice of reason.
👍Definitely, the only person choosing to follow the sense attained from the great dawn of recording and mixing. It gets no simpler than, if it's too loud and clipping/distorting: turn it down! All the trying to make the mixing console pretty by keeping all faders at unity is nonsense too. There is not even a hard rule that the master fader cannot be turned down to achieve a volume either. A lot of new introductions and complications have risen because of the DAW and its accessibility to a MASS of inexperienced people wanting to be engineers...there is far more involvement with mixing than gain staging that requires technical experience. I.e. possible inverted audio cancelling out other audio (an ear thing or zooming into audio file on the timeline and see the inverted difference, etc. TRUTH: mixes suck because the EARS are not the sole and primary...even a so-called properly gain staged mix can suck just the same. Plus if one is gain staging an obvious (they exist) horrible song, why does staging even matter? I think importing files to the timeline and turning up or down visual loudness (because one has seen what they look like in reference to mixing ONLY a million times) makes far more sense. I'm sure you can also identify what a breath or sibilance looks like for the same reasons: when you know, you know! Lol, it's a long-winded AGREE about it being nonsense for me too! I have RIAA certifications from gold and platinum sales and none of them came from over-thinking gain staging, and the ones to follow will not either. I'll continue to use my ears and expertise the way it has always been done. #FinalLevelLivesMatter
So lets say I'm happy with how my mix sounds, and it's not clipping, but it's hitting -3 before sending to mastering. Would you say that reducing gain on the output channel (and I mean gain rather than turning down the channel fader) so it's, I dunno, -6 for mastering headroom, is okay? It seems like a cheat... but IS IT lol
Great video thanks, THAT CLEARS STUFF UP. I have an issue that I cant seem to solve you may be able to help. In running logicc pro on an M1 Mac , my sound card is Universal Audio Apollo 16 Mii. I have a bunch of out board pr amps that i use. The issue is although the output levels on the VU meters in the DAW are all pretty high around -12 to 9 and the stereo bus out put to my Apollo are at around -3 the apollo output bus shows a healthy stereo output at around -3 but the actual audio is not very loud. My amps are turned up to nearly full so its not that and also when Ive bounced a mix its not any where close to the volume Id expect, Ive compared with CD's and the signal of my mix is much lower. The Apollo 16 has the option to set the monitor level output to 14dbu or 20 dbu but that shouldnt effect the level of the bounces. Any clues ?
Well it sucks you can’t download the book anymore, because this was this first video I’ve seen in a looong time that actually taught me something I didn’t realize. I want caught up the online hype (because I already know how to gain stage) but I WAS gain starting the old way thinking it still mattered. But no obviously you’re right, there should be no excess noise in a DAW. I think it probably still matters to have your guitar gain staged correctly into you interface, but I do definitely leave more headroom than I would’ve before on an analog recorder (like my old Roland 1680r for example 😂) so yeah great video man thank you lol
Hi, I got this as a direct e-mail from you but no place to leave comments on it and the link that appeared on your website for the free book from your video, Mixing Heavy Music, came back as a "404-error (page not found)". So came over to You Tube to see if there was another link I missed and there wasn't. It had the same link and it also yielded a 404 error. Any chance you could e-mail a link to the book? Thanks!
I agree with everything you said, except about tolerating red lights - I know we are working with 32 and 64 bit floating points, but that's still sloppy practice ..... that being said, good tutorial!!!
I think your video is very interesting, but it does not help clarifying. Any excess does not really help, from "scary -18dB" to "gain staging is bullshit". Truth stays somewhere in the middle. - Gain staging should not be a pain or produce fear and anxiety, you are fully right - You do not need to be an engineer but a rough understanding of gain, volume, clipping and saturation may help (all along the sound path) - A lot of misunderstanding is due to unlabelled numbers you find on gear or ignorance on the previous point. A 0 on an analog preamp, an AD interface or in the DAW do have different meaning. I know you are talking only about mixing in the DAW, but... - ...but many people are also recording at home and this is where -18 is coming from most of the time on the web. Many people are pushing the AD to the limit of 0 with clipping risk (the 0 there is important indeed!) and this is totally unnecessary. This is why separating analog - recording - mixing (daw) is important. I know your are talking about the last one only but it's easy for newbies to just extend to other domains (especially if they do not understand) - In your video you do gain staging "when trimming visually, based on experience". My point here is that people without experience are screwed. This is where a numerical indication may become handy as a starting point (-18 to -12). This is not a rule, those numbers ain't magic or silver bullet, but starting point yes. And, by the way, you are also trying to "visually normalize" your inputs, and if you go and take a look at the volume you probably "visually" set them between -18 and -12... :-) My point here is again: do not mix using numbers, but do not ostracize them either - Gain staging is not by itself improving the mix in terms of quality but it may improve the process of mixing. Even with few tracks if you are pushing them towards 0, they end up overloading every bus they feed at any change. This is not necessarily a sound issue, but you end up touching all faders and volumes all the time, sound somehow changes and you feel lost. So leaving some (head)room may not improve the sound but will help tracks to sit in the mix more easily - Unfortunately what sounds louder also seems to sound better, so controlling the gain/volume across plugins is also important. It is not really for the sweet point stuff (I agree this is a bit overrated) but a cultural/mental approach: when you apply an FX try to keep the balance between in and out. I know that peaks and loudness are not the same but keeping an eye on how we affect the mix may help and is generally healthy - Having red lights on faders may still sound good, ok, but let's be very clear: this is true if it's a desired effect, most of the time it's an unwanted side effect. So the problem here is: when you have several tracks and FX and lot of red lights and the sound is crap, where should I focus to solve? An experienced guy finds out, many newbies won't. This is where IMHO gain staging helps. It's not THE solution, is not a necessary condition for a great result but it's something I would consider to keep the process under control and make life easier - About faders, if you use an external MIDI controller you feel the difference on actual position - Most of "gain adjustments" should not be performed using faders, but using gain trims or plugins in/out gains. This helped me a lot in my experience because while the fader may "make the light green again", it may hide strange stuff going on in the "channel FXs strip". When you have complicated routing and poor gain control you feel lost. Again: does this mean the mix will sound crap? Not necessarily, but it will most probably put you in that position where any change requires other 1000 adjustments in many places and screws the balance and THAT in my opinion is what scary newbies: the feeling to be in an unstable balance point. A good control on gain may (MAY) help in self confidence At the end of the day there is no rocket science and nothing to be afraid of, but there are some points to keep in mind. No strict rules, but starting points, advices, and rules of thumb. Probably one of the issues is the name: "gain staging" sounds technical and abstract, maybe "keep track volume reasonable at every stage (recording, FX input, FX output, bus)" sounds less cryptic. Anyway, this video was a valuable contribution, thanks A
Thank you for this, been stressing over gain staging like I somehow missed the essence of mixing and mastering. I've been rapidly progressing in my skills so I guess I've got an ear for it!
I like this method of not going into a major overwhelm about keeping the level perfect in the recording stage. The information knowing the DAW has plenty of headroom is definitely good to know and keeps my focus on playing the arrangement.
That's why I think every plugin should have an input knob with an indicator that tells the user if the input level is okay or too low or high, no matter what level the plugin expects. And usually I'll just make sure that the level doesn't change much when I bypass a plugin in order to not have to adjust input gain further down the line (assuming that plugins in general deal well with an RMS level of -18dfFS).
I do a very loose form of staging. Not on every channel. But I'll typically have an EQ, then a vu, then a limiter (Not a limiter on every channel all the time)....and then add plugins backwards from the limiter. I only use it as a guide and a tool to help keep everything sounding relatively even in gain and volume. If it doesn't seem like it's working I'll remove it and not gain stage or I'll modify based on what it needs. Like I said I keep it loose.
What about the advice of trying to make the bypass on/off “volume” of a plugin / effect roughly the same? Another part of the gain-staging bandwagon is doing this to keep it at the -18 DbFS, but perhaps this is sound advice anyway if we ignore gain staging.
Thanks for simplifying and emphasizing the essence))) It takes me a lot of time trying to mix one song, but now I wanna try to mix a song within a day, maybe within a few days
I do appreciate your take on gain staging in a digital setting. However gain staging in such a way to leave yourself plenty of headroom is still beneficial for someone using a DAW. For one, the mastering process can still benefit from having the extra space to work with, no matter what platform is used to do it. But even more than that, it's not a guarantee that everyone who uses these DAWs will ALWAYS be using DAWs, and getting into proper practice of leaving headroom just means that you won't have to relearn how to mix once you're faced with an analog setup. I learned recording and production engineering in a professional studio, using consoles like the SSL and the Neve. I also learned how to use Pro Tools in this same school, and professional engineers explained that although in a digital workspace there is far less worry about clipping, not every track being made will be fully mixed "in the box". It's just smart to know what proper gain staging is and utilize it every time you mix. I do agree that there's no "golden ratio" for gain staging, such as your average level being at -18dB. The only thing I make sure of is that before the signal hits the master track, I'm peaking around -6dB, giving me enough headroom for the mastering part of the process. This can be done a number of ways, but I do tend to keep my faders near unity gain (0dB) and gain stage through my channel inputs (using FL Studio). However, you could have everything come in hot and simply turn them all down by their faders, or on a buss. Really it's up to you as long as you leave that headroom on the master. Nothing wrong with your technique, and for people who aren't as into the engineering side of audio production as myself, it's better to avoid the headache most times. But there are reasons why people make so much fuss over gain staging. Even you mention that you eyeball your gain staging because of years and years of experience, which these folks may not have.
This is the second pro engineer Ive heard call out the bs of gain staging, Andrew Scheps being the other one. Im confident in their opinions, to all those arguing in the comments. Pretty sure their mixes are a bit more relevant than ours
I think I have some mild disagreements. Should you not record at a hotter input level to keep the noise floor lower as well as more consistent, especially with multiple levels of compression? Surely being flippant with input level is not a good idea. I'm sure you're not suggesting to be flippant, but you did say not so low you can't see it, but not so hot it clips, which is pretty vague. And is there not a workflow benefit to gain staging and keeping fader movements to minimum? If for nothing else but overcoming visual bias of seeing a fader at say, -45db compared to one at +3db, and overcoming urges to push something to be louder as a result, and for neatness?
I think the issue of gain staging for me is just ensuring a proper balance of signal from stems to final master fader. The addition of tracks and processing often increase gain, which requires a constant rebalancing during the mixing phase. You can hear the difference between how a plugin reacts to too hot of a signal, which is always less pleasing than an analog piece. A collective of "too hot signal" plugins can change the tone of a mix, and can affect everything down the chain. So its a constant checking, and rechecking through the processing chain. Its not complicated - its just something to be aware of.
This is the worst advice given good simplification, but there is a difference when you set a proper preamp volume without touching the Faders. Simply focusing on trim and output levels.
I can stain gauges, but it's a lot harder to gauge stages - and honestly, I don't see what's to gain from staging gauges anyway. But I like these videos anyway - it seems like every video he's telling me some shit I've heard a million times is wrong!! haha.... But it's all stuff that seemed kinda sus to begin with and never really made sense to me, anyway - so I trust this guy more. More than the randos on reddit, anyway. Thanks for making the videos.
Sorry but no. Not that I disagree with you, but no, this isn't really addressing what everyone else is teaching about gain staging. Cause everything is in agreement from everything I've learned and heard before. that recording levels arent as important, dont clip in dont clip out. So what are you refuting here? What gain staining is being taught as is something you didn't visually at the end, the part where you adjusted the clip gain, well you did what it is you're telling everyone not to worry about. And I highly doubt you just import track and dont even give clip gain a thought. no you just have lots of years behind you so you visualize what everyone else is using number for. -18db is simply a goal to get your tracks to so in the end, they appear to look the same as yours. that's it. no are there douche bags out there who will say its more important than it really is? yeah, yes there are. but hypochondriac exist too, doesn't mean you dont go to the doctors when you're sick. so it gain staging a huge deal, not so much. but to tell everyone its no big deal, that's not helpful to them either.
The more I watch TH-cam, the more I see wannabe mixers and engineers making videos full of ridiculous information. That is besides the tons of total stupidity. People watch other videos made by beginners who have never made a cent in audio acting like experts and they make their own videos based on that stupidity. There should be knowledgeable people like you who list those bad channels. How else can beginners know they are watching garbage. I see comments on those bad channels saying how much they just learned and I am telling you some of these channels are terrible.
personally, i still do gain staging despite doing 100% of all the work inside the box. I am not sure why but i am able to hear everything perfectly when none of the channels are clipping and also the master channel as well remains below 0, kind of a "pre mixing" basically, as opposed to just continue composing and recording and having the master channel well beyond 0 but since its digital no distortion, i notice that there are elements that begin to mask or simply cant cut through the other elements until is time to actually mix the session.
What the hell is this!?!? This guys says to use your ears when mixing?! Why did I buy these beautiful and Fab looking plugins !?! But seriously, this is great (and freeing) advice. Big ups!
You made a very good summary on all this gain staging stuff, though it seems guitars and bass recordings are still affected by it to some extend (virtual pedals, amps and cab loaders are very picky with it sometimes). Btw, that example you showed in Pro Tools: It depends on the DAW, some may have the fader before the summing and some others after, some DAWs even have the summing happens before any plugins on the channel. I'm gonna resharethis video, I hope you don't mind ;)
Curious if you can name me the DAW that has the summing before any plugins on their insert channels? Protools, Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio, Ableton, Reaper, Studio One, Reason, Bitwig...is it any of those? From my experience, none of these are doing what your suggest other DAWs might. I'm sure they exist, I literally just don't know which you're referring to. Seems counter-intuitive. You'd have to adjust every plugin on the insert every time you change the fader.
If you're recording with mics, the signal to noise rule still holds, so record as hot as possible. Only if you're going straight in does all this apply. Above all, use your fucking ears!
to be frank there is an advantage to not recording instruments too quiety: besides the fact that the ADC of your soundcard will still introduce some noise you will also slightly decrease the dynamic range by recording at a lower volume. If you record in 32 bit it probably will be fine but generally the more "area" between -1 an 1 in the digital waveform you cover the more different points will be available to you. If you just record between -0.1 and 0.1, you will just naturally just have a tenth of the dynamic range, even if you normalize it later. The effect is, technically, close to that of a bit reduction plugin. I'd suggest recording at a medium level where you don't run the danger of clipping but still use a good chunk of the avaiable space of the signal.
Should I pull down the fader on the master bus or put the master fader at 0 and use a plugin to turn down? Which is better? Or are they same in the end?
I think it would be nice to see a video on balance. Because u are making moves to get your balance right based on your experience but Most videos just do this but never talk about it. What are you listening for?
About having your faders at zero. The the 7”s engineers got there balance from mic positioning. They were ratchet by dudes who recorded this way since the advent if the L P in the 50s. By the 90s when working on the G 4000 series inwards ( E could update their firmware to achieve the following too ) we could zero / null our faders without changing tbd mix level. Something I did often. This was a very helpful in several situations; especially’ fader creep.’ Great Video. Thanks
Not a single comment here about “Serbinsynth” or “Pad Thai”. Incredible. PS - I can’t believe I didn’t think about the tracks in the 100s getting mismatched with the tracks in the 10s
why are you making it seem like gain staging is this terribly complex thing that is confusing people? getting your inputs to a good level is just good practice. it makes mixing a little easier. If people want to gains stage to -18db or do it the way you did it they are accomplishing the same goal.
I've been playing guitar and bass for more than three decades, with planty of live performance and professional studio time, but I'm new to home recording, so i needed this. Thanks!
It's actually a good practice to understand and employ that will allow you to achieve consistency across all of your mixes. One huge challenge that causes people to stumble while learning to mix is having their monitors' loudness too low. Granted, we should be checking at different levels and (if you have them) sets of monitors, but the nominal level is ordinarily set too low at the outset. So, you punch-up a mix and before you know it you're in the red all over the place.
I feel like I can finally enjoy mixing and life in general after watching this video 😂 thanks!
Yes!! 👊
same
x3
Thanks I was beginning to wonder why they even made mix faders in daws ....thanks for putting us at ease....
Nah
I wish I would have heard this before recording my band's EP. ugh...
Thank you for breaking that down :)
busy works beatsssssssssss.com
love that intro
hey whats this guy doing here lol........"Its BUSY-WORKSSS BEEEEAATTSS..............
I also like to 👀 that we as producers educate ourselves everyday. Busy keep doing your thing!
ok i dont expect to c you here.but now you have to tell us what plugging to use in FL STUDIO for gain staging .and well come.
Hajee Tech I agree!!
Gain staging ITB actually does improve mix quality when going through plugins. I have tested this thoroughly and is especially true for eqing. If you are doing drastic boosts with EQ for creative sound design purposes, you get a much cleaner result if the incoming signal is quiet. My mixes sound more full when utilizing gain staging during the signal chain. If a signal is too hot and causing inharmonic distortion within the plugin, the sum of all the distortion will be great when the full mix hits the limiter to bring the volume back up.
I use a lot of Acustica Audio plugins and I can definitely say that there is a big difference in clarity and fullness of my mixes when I use gain staging mixing techniques especially going into these plugins.
I believe it is also genre dependent too. Do some experiments yourself and see if it A: improves your mix. B: improves your workflow
yeah, but it doesn't have to be exactly -18dB. Sometimes you may want less, and more, for different sound from plugin.
Thanks for the tip! I just watched a Dom Sigalas video about GS & he convinced me to take it easy going in to give my plug-ins plenty of headroom and especially freeing up headroom on the Master Bus. i come from tape recording, and recording hot trying to get a high signal-to-noise ratio is a hard habit to break. All the Best.
Fully agree with this. Granted, there's no "absolute" when it comes to gain staging, like the whole -18dB thing I see a lot of content creators mentioning, but pushing too much signal through plugins or busses does make the job of getting a clean mix more difficult.
Even still, I suggest for people who don't have the experience to know where they want to gain stage to have the kick peak somewhere around -9dB, and build everything else around it. Then just make sure the signal coming in to the master track is peaking no higher than -6dB for mastering and everything is good. How they choose to get to that number is up to them (faders, busses, etc.)
Gain staging isn't quality as far as I've ever heard of. It's more for workflow and the chance to speed the mix up at the end of the process and therefore maybe making more money. Your general message is spot on, blown way out of proportion. I prefer your way, set your inputs correctly before you track your finals. At the same time, I still use gain staging if I see a Track that looks like it's not setting around relatively the same level. If they're all close or somewhat similar, I don't even bother. Great video. I think this is the 3rd video I've seen from you now. Your putting some great advice out there.
I think the point that people are trying to make with the emphasis on gain staging, is that for people who are recording and mixing their own music. And if you have proper gain staging from the beginning it just streamlines the process, and save you a lot of time and headaches...
Riiiight, it really does
Yes
you are a doctor, curing my mixing diseases
thank you bro, i love your 'make it simple' way of mixing
All good info on gain staging. Only issue with using the 'all' selection to pull down the faders is this will effect the level going to sub groups and your mix buss. Therefore your compression/saturation/effects won't have the same relationship when you pull down the faders.
For sure, if you have to do this late in a mix you'll have to make adjustments to any busses. Again though, common sense.
@@hardcoremusicstudio It could be good to mention. You show the mixing part, that and the production is two separate topics. But many like me use hardware today. I hit as loud possible without noise on lowest volyme and not cliping when recorded. That works. And in my case gain make a difference wirh UAD. But if you dont feel or hear, that you analog gears at some level, adds a lot of noise you should perhaps do something else ;)
Groups
VCA groups if your DAW can do it!
faders dont effect gain going through the plugins btw
They do if it's the master fader and it's pre-insert.
They do if the plug-in is the Send.
@@tonepilot You can set it to be pre-fader in most if not all DAWs.
@@amanger4191 true
Easy.
1. Each track shouldn't be clipping on the way in.
2. The master bus shouldn't be clipping.
3. It isn't rocket science.
You got it
Why master bus shouldn't be clipping? I clip my master bus on purpose to gain loudness and mantain the punch from drums. The peaks are clipped though printing the track to wave file. Try it
@@TheKevbe I just go about it a different way. But "clipping the master" is a very different thing from someone experienced to someone starting out. They could see red and just assume it's the right thing. But I clip my drums before they hit the master.
@@TheKevbe Respectfully, I'm assuming you are mixing through analog gears? If you're mixing digitally all you get from clipping your master bus is digital distortion. Analog and digital gears treat clipping signals very differently.
@@carlito.pedida-personal Not at all, I mix 100% ITB. Clipping is done on the master bus by pushing the master fader. There is point where the distortion is obvious and sounds bad as anything pushed too hard. Clipping the wave file is the "purest" clipping as you can get and it sounds most natural to me without any coloration. It works mostly on rock oriented music with drums and you want to only shave drums peaks, without touching the harmony. Basically it's like clipping your converters but it stays in digital domain. It may cause inter sample peaks but they are part of the sound and you will find them all over the top chart hits from the last 20 years.
For me personally I feel like my mix is improved at least 25 to 40% when I really started focus on gain staging.
Are you sure it doesn't have something to do with you being more conscious about overall balance in your mix?
I agree. Personally, I like the idea of gain-staging to at least get all the instruments outputing at the same level when all the mixer tracks are at "unity" so I can literally hear everything at once. In my projects, without gain staging, there can be so much going on as I layer things on top of other things that some sounds just get so lost and buried that I forget they're there because I can't hear them anymore. I was having trouble mixing my current project. I went back and just gain-staged everything and the transformation was like magic even with all the faders at zero. So I haven't even actually mixed it yet and it already sounds better than it did with a sans-gain-staging mixing attempt.
Additionally, I like being able to look at the mixer and know that if one slider is lower than another, then the sound coming out of it is actually lower. Without gain staging, I might have a mixing fader set at 25%, but it's louder than another fader that's at 90%! To me, that just makes the whole mixing process confusing and harder to manage.
In short, this video didn't convince at all to stop fussing over gain staging. Maybe it's not necessary, but for me, it's still useful. After all, there's certainly no harm in gain staging. If it works, just do it.
@@phaneserichthoneus8895 "I like being able to look at the mixer and know that if one slider is lower than another, then the sound coming out of it is actually lower" faders are not for that. That's what METERS are for. Feels like you're new to all this...
@@victorbicudo1374 No, I'm not new to it. But the nice part about a DAW is that there's nothing wrong with setting up your faders to work like that if you want to. It's hard to be super-exact due to the dynamics of each sound, but I'd rather have them set up so there's roughly the same level of sound coming out of each mixer track if all the faders are at the same level.
I agree.
Who actually says that setting your tracks to a specific level (e.g. -18db) is going to “fix” your mixes? I’ve listened to many people talk about gain staging and never heard this. Feel like this is a straw man argument. Some good points in this video though. Thanks!
Bless you for this topic. I'm so tired of old folks babbling about gain staging.
Gain stage your butthurt, grampa.
@@Nullllus He's right, you know... Go ahead and clip every plugin in your chain and clip your busses and your master... Go ahead. See how amazing it sounds, moron.
Who said anything about clipping everything? Some plugins don't even clip.
@@Nullllus 😂😂😂😂😂😂 then you obviously don't understand how they achieve that result lmfao
Who's 'they' in that sentence?
Is this dude wearing makeup?
This is why your channel is so educating without all the can't do this don't do that bullshit. quiet as kept this is exactly the way I've been going about. I was getting so much push back that my music would suffer if I wasn't doing this exact scientific method that's all over the TH-camrs channels. I thought engineering was a unique individual creating their own sound. Hardcore you're spitting the true gospel keep up the great work and thanks for all you do for the recording fam. I've been a scriber since I ran into this specific video. anyone searching for any other video dealing with gain staging just STOP IT!! this guy can't put it any simpler. Gain staging isn't a big deal afterwards.
I feel like shooting for -12 db. on the input has helped me get better mixes easier. I'm a complete beginner but when I started doing that I got much better results. But thanks for the knowledge brother!
I go for -12 to -8 depending on the sound element.
When i learnt about gain staging,,it definitely made my mixes sound tighter,,not a hard concept to grasp really.
Same fr, I think it's the most important part
I think many aspiring mixers get into this side of audio because of how cerebral it can be. And while there are technicalities in mixing, it’s good to remember that it’s nothing precious and to approach the mix pragmatically vs theoretically
☛ Grab your FREE mixing cheatsheet and get on my list for the best audio training on the web: www.mixcheatsheet.com
its not hype... most "analog" replicated plugins shoot for -18 LUFs, and yes you can push them like real gear. its idiotic to record your audio any lower. better to lower the clip volume than boost it. you can literally do what you do by normalizing all the clips to -18..
This just took away so much underlying stress in regards to leveling and gain staging you're the best J, truly, thank you for this (years of stress gone). Keeping being you, you're appreciated out here :)
At last! A voice of reason! My background is from mixing with tape when it was all about signal to noise and getting the most out of gear with instabilities. I've been working with DAWs in the way that you describe in the video for many years but have recently doubted myself thanks to all of the gain staging videos out there. I can now go back to mixing with confidence.
Great to hear, that somebody has a different approach to this topic as most guys on YT. I agree on the recording part and your point on fader resolution is also a great opinion... but I realy disagree on the part that GS doesen't make any differents between a "amatuer" and a "pro" mix and is not that important.
Not saying that you have to gain all your tracks to -18dBVU or somthing is the key.. but allmost every time I've worked with "hobby-producers" mixing their own stuff, the problem was no understanding of GS.
The "just turn down the masterfader" approach often leads to a - turn everything on channels up, turn the master down and slap a limiter on thing. (Protools is a special thing there; Most other DAWs got prefader inserts on the masterfader!)
Example: most software synths put out a level near 0dBFS so one cant hear the bass and drums anymore - turn everything up past 0, masterfader down - but then it has to be louder to bounce it - limiter on... and the result is a wobbly bass mess.
I think it's your experience with GS (and floatingpoint calculation.. not everybody knows how to abuse it in a positive way) wherefore you don't need to think about it and get hot levels sounding right.. and tbh you said that you know the level just hitting the yellow is how you want it - that's the essence of every "pros" GS approach.. -> Gaining all tracks (or Group Inputs like eg Joey Sturgis) to a more or less fixed level with a sort of input gain, so your 2Bus isn't exploding and buscompression/limiting doesn't turn out into a basketball like sound. ..so I don't think you're busting any myths there..
Summarized I like your approach on this topic because it is mostly a convenience thing how you like your levels and faders with floatpoint DAWs nowadays and you're not telling that it's a must to gain to a strict level X/Y! But I find it necessary to understand what GS is about and not just leave it as nonsense. Then you can make your own thing out of it and thats the key, in my opinion.
Very useful information. Thank you. I am an amateur bedroom mixer, and I'm learning along the way, but I definitely feel like I'm making nice progress.
4:34 take the hint from the programmers! 0VU = (+4dBu or -10dBv) = 1kHz Sine wav @ ref voltage = -18dBFS = 85dbSPL(A) @ 1m unless you have a high end ADC which specificly declares a higher maximum input voltage and you can set the calibration voltage to -20dBFS or some other standardized reference level.
The correct way to think about gain structure is that all devices in your signal path should clip at the same time. To maximize the S/N ratio, the system designer should choose equipment which supports the same maximum input and output level with similar nominal operating level AND headroom. For example, a "Pro" preamp often has a max output level of +26dBu and outputs a balanced signal at +4dBu. If one drives the input of a converter which also has a maximum input level of +26dBu with a nominal operating level of +4dBu over a balanced line, the correct equipment has been selected. If the ADC only handles a max input level of +18dBu the additional output range of the preamp has to be attenuated and this compromises the dynamic range of the system. Now consider an ADC which supports a max input level of +26dBu with a nominal level of +4dBu. The nominal level is far below the maximum range which allows a much more precise level of measurement over the voltages than can be achieved when operating closer to the max limits. The same is true with a converter which accepts a max input level of +18dBu and this (and because of number of additional design improvements) is one large reason why more expensive converters typically sound better than cheap converters and its also exactly the same reason DAW engineers should record with more headroom, especially on cheaper digital gear. Anyone using a 24 bit converter has zero reason to record with less headroom than the manufacturer anticipated. Only people recording directly to 16bit mediums should even consider the effects of quantization distortion (when low voltages are inaccurately sampled due to a lack of resolution in the digtal scale). The best thing a novice engineer can get out of this is (in extremely general terms) that an audio system designer should always choose equipment with the same operating capabilities throughout the entire system and that the weakest link defines the system's capabilities.
So many numbers and so much bla bla... Who gives a rat's ass , this is about making music , not fucking rocket science
Very helpful info thanks!
@@sebastiandordoni2268 If you're going to put engineer in the title of your name you should know about the numbers. You better not be calling yourself an engineer if you can't figure this shit out. Or maybe you'll back pedal and say you're a musician so it doesn't matter and I'm just talking to a wall because you're going to take it personally.
sebastian dordoni but IS science. You’re the only one talking about rockets. Lol. All these letters and keys. Lol who cares about music theory. You must be a rapper. 🤣
@@wienerstein2817 and who said i present myself as an engineer? To call myself and engineer would be an insult to the real ones with decades of experience, i'm only saying people don't care what preamps or at what levels you recorded, if the mix sounds good that's all that matters, leave the ultra technical matters to the elistists and gatekeepers
Hey Jordan, on my current journey in the world of recording I finally ran across a video that just makes since. It’s a million videos about how vital gain staging will make your mixes sound more professional. But after hearing some of your finished products I became more convinced that the gain staging rhetoric bs must be mythical after all. Actually I’ve been mixing this way since I got into the game and everyone thought I was doing this major gain staging thing. All I was really doing was the same method you’re doing in this video and the mixes turned out quite exciting. I’m not recording rock or metal but that doesn’t mean you can’t apply your teachings to other genres. Thanks for all you do for the recording community. Keep up the great work Jordan. As the late great movie critics Siskel and Ebert would say two thumbs up!!!!!
Great video that makes 100% real world sense. I’m newer to home recording but had a few studio experiences 20+ years ago and things have changed greatly. Wonderful video, cheers!
This is so timely for me. I am diving in deeper in my transition from anolog mixing mindset to Daw mindset. This resonates well with me. Thanks for the clarity and transparency!
Thanx man! All this "GS" buzz gave me headache for a looong time. Now it would be great to make a video related to the "RMS/Perceived Loudness". I mean what is the ''modern standard'' for loudness now? Some say -20dB, some say -14dB, some say -12dB or even -10dB is OK. But how one can make the track LOUD ENOUGH and LOUDER in a RIGHT WAY without too much limiting?
And THANX for the book! It's more than awesome!
Eternal Tom I second this lol
-14 LUFS
*EDIT: Assuming you are making music, be it pop, rock, hardcore, that is anyway gonna end up in streaming services. These services either lower or pump up your volume levels to their standards (which of each service btw has pretty much their own). -14 Loudness Units Full Scale is a good middle ground. Not a law, but around that.
That's actually WHY I normalize all of my tracks to -18db and trim them back down if the plugin adds any more gain; because if I need a track louder, I can always push it up above zero and not worry about clipping. And if the mix as a whole needs to be louder, I add gain with my limiter on the master buss.
If we're talking about music, the current standard is -14 LUFS. Spotify, for example, will actually turn your music down if it's louder than that. All of the main streaming platforms are doing this, which is the main way people listen to music now. Izotope, a company known for mastering plugins, have also adopted this by setting -14LUFS as the default target in Ozone, their main mastering plugin. I'm sure there will be debate about this, but I'm literally stating facts here, not an opinion.
Alex Davies exactly why I said if we are talking about music. The AES is a recommendation, not the standard in music streaming platforms. For example, SoundCloud has no limits at all which is why you hear loud tracks on there all the time. Again, most music is being consumed by platforms like Spotify which is using the standard I stated. If you’re making a mix for tv broadcasting that would be different, which again is why I used Spotify and Izotope as my reference.
When the meter is going from green and just pushing into the yellow you're set. Exactly how I've always always recorded and mixed. Great vid.
Thank you for saying what many of us know; gain staging is bullshit. Stayed my career in Neves and SSLs. I recorded hot then and these days so long as it sounds good it stays on the record. The most important thing is having good ideas
I've been taught that keeping the fader as close to unity as possible in a DAW is because of resolution.... nothing to do with noise or the analog world.
yes, correct, resolution around unity is most sensitive
Analogue is the only thing you need to gain stage. It's redundant if you're using digital gear.
Time for some coffee at 4:23 :D Thank you Jordan, good & useful information as always!
* Raises hats by 20 dB * now you have trap music. I don’t want to dog on this guy, but based on the sample song, it seems like he just makes wall-of-sound, everything turned up to 11, every instrument is shouting type music. What about music that has... you know... dynamics?
Nisuki Cake no. 20 dB. :)
Nisuki Cake ❤️
if there is noise in the room and you are micing a voice or an instrument there will be noise picked up (air, mechanical, subway rumble, fans , air conditioning, etc can all be picked up by a mic- so if there is any noise in a home studio-- Id want to record my signal fairly hot, but like you say - not into the red.
He's referring to in the box. What you're talking about is still in the analog realm at that point.
@@brandoncooke6564 even if you get stems as a mixer. The source had to record a vocal in a room with a nice. Where there could be noise.
Gain Staging all my tracks really gave my mixes width and depth. All my processing opened up, and I use less processing - both analog and digital. Andrew Scheps has blazing levels, I do not. The topic of Gain Staging ITB is subjective. Not objective. Including Gain Staging into your work flow is simply a matter of preference.
Not quite true. First of all if you have calibrated monitors with good gain adjusments you can realy tell what is loud and what is not. Also you need proper gain staging even between plugins on the track if you want to make proper mix comparison with and without plugins.
You don't need to gain stage digital plugins in your DAW. Gain staging was important when you were recording into a mixing board into analogue tape. If your gear is digital, then gain staging doesn't matter as long as you'tr not redlining and you're leaving enough headroom for other elements of your mix.
@@aiden_macleod I'm not saying that you need to gain stage plugins. I'm saying that you need gain stage for comparison between with or without plugins.
I disagree. Some people think they need to Gain Stage no matter what. I'm saying that if you're producing in the Digital realm, Gain Staging is unnecessary.
Just out of curiosity, who online is telling people to record digitally as hot as possible? I haven't seen any of this hype online...
Secondly, why not keep your faders close to Unity? Professionals try to keep them closer to unity for the scaling/resolution. A lot of us do care about that without using a hot key.
Gain staging into "analog" plugins like the slate digital stuff makes a huge difference, for better or worse, as you say sometimes it adds aggression.
(Edit: pulling down the master fader is a terrible idea surely? The fader is post FX, so if you are limiting, your whole mix master will be quiet)
I don't think that professionals are ever stressed or worried about gain staging, but to simply ignore it as unimportant seems a bit dangerous to me? Surely we want the next generation coming though into mixing to be able to retain some knowledge from the greats that came before us and at least understand why it's important to gain stage, in the box or not?
Respectfully, I think you're missing his point. He clearly says, "don't record so low that you can barely see it on the screen and don't record so hot that you're clipping." That covers everything you have an issue with. No, there aren't a bunch of people online telling people to record digitally as hot as possible, but there are A TON of youtubers showing videos of them spending entirely too much time getting "the right" levels going into the master or a bus. It's not necessary to spend that much time gain staging when, like we all agree, you just turn down all of the tracks. The focus should be to just balance your levels of the mix, not where the mix is hitting when summed together. Once you have a good balance, you can adjust the entire mix up or down as you please. When it comes to analog modeled plugins, use your ears. Depending on your sound and the plugin, there isn't going to be an exact number to even set your pregain to. No matter what level you gain stage to, you're going to end up changing the input/output anyway. This clearly isn't a video about "professionals" worried about gain staging in the box. This is about youtubers making videos that are wasting your time. Also, a point about using ctrl or cmd for more control over the resolution...even at full resolution, I'm still using the hot key because I can adjust the faders with slower action. So it's not just about the resolution. It's about the actual control/action of the fader itself. I love your videos, been a long time fan. But I really think he has a good point with all of the mess that's out there about the amount of time youtubers spend on gainstaging in the box, before getting straight to balancing a mix.
Actually 5-6 years back I saw many videos and blogs about "How Important Gain Staging" . Dunno where those videos are and a lot of good channels (like FL NOOB ZONE) have been shut down now.
In a nut shell, you don't need to worry about gain staging in a 32-bit floating point engine (Which all modern DAWS are). The only time you need to worry about it is in when using specific analog model plugins and amp model as these plugin are deliberately made to clip (analog clipping) at certain levels.
Other then that, using stock plugins, you dont need to worry about. Also most of the plugins have input/output knob (I guess this is gain staging too haha) so, there is really nothing to stress about.
Lots of people, especially new starters fail to understand the difference between GAIN and FADER of a channel. If a fader could do all the levelling, why have a gain knob at the input of the channel? It has nothing to do with noise, especially when mixing In-The-Box.
@@AndrewBawitlung you definitely do have to do gain staging in a 32 bit DAW
@@inthemix For me it depends. If I use only stock plugins (which I do most of the time) all my individual channels go into red. I just turned down the volume in the master channel.
Its not that "we don't need to" it is just not as important as it was in the analog domain.
I am sure you have read this but its was posted on Slate Audiophiles and I agree along the lines with this.
blog.groove3.com/articles/ge7psa9gdwsljaieldmma59rmap7tq
-Kenny Gioia (S Club 7, Many Moore, etc.)
noisefloorav.com/gain-staging-know-shouldnt-stress/
Hey man, I love you! I love your straightforward approach, I love your philosophy, I love the way you explain and simplify things. Your mixes sound so powerful. Thank you for all the advice and for all the effort. Thank you, man, for everything! The best possible channel for audio production!!! ❤
Great advice! Here's HMS's follow--up Q&A to this master session: th-cam.com/video/95_1K3rwi_8/w-d-xo.html . I'm heading there NNNNOWWWW!
At 00;04:00 you talk about 'resolution'.
Do you know that digital audio DOES have a noise floor ?
In a 16 bit environment it's -96 dBfs.
That's how it is.
No debate.
Therefore if you're not near 0 dBs, your S/N ratio deteriorates by 6 dB per bit of resolution.
If you're mixing at -18 dBs, your S/N ratio slips from 96 dBs to 78 dBs.
And of course you know that every bit of resolution equals 6 dBs.
Even if you're processing at 24 bits internally, your output to CD is 16 bits deep.
So yes, just like us old timers, proper gain staging means EVERYTHING.
Get that wrong and your whole mix is noisy.
Unless you're recording at 32 bit floating point, which is a whole different kettle of fish.
It's so funny that the moment I came to write the comment about analog modelled plugins, you started talking about it
I'm still a nerd about making sure signals are at -18 dbFS when the fader's at unity gain before doing any processing. Ended up making it a habit & I just haven't stopped
Thank you so much for putting this video out. I’ve been so sick of hearing all this -18db BS.
Wow! You just freed me! You said everything that I learned through experience. Thought I'm alone on thinking this way.
Kenny Gioa of Reaper fame did a great video of this were he intentionally clipped a track by something absurd (like 100db or something) and demonstrated the same thing: the 32bit floating point systems have essentially unlimited internal headroom.
I agree with most of your videos man, but on this one I do recommend to get started with 0 db input on all console emulations, THD and V-Gain turned off (bx-consoles). Also I say start using the bx-consoles, only they emulate the slight channel differences across the board, making a HUGE difference. I dont say I have the truth but we need to stay truthful to what a console really is especially when the results show it. Run them on your tracks, busses and parallels, run them on the parallel busses of your instrument and vocal bus ("rear busses") and on the bus where you glue drums and instruments together. learn the sound from there. it is gonna save you yeeeeeaaaaaars. when you really know that sound, then start tweaking input, output and THD, noise buttons. AND: try out adding INPUT AND OUTPUT GAIN DIGITALLY, it sounds different from the consoles input and output gain knobs, i often prefer the digital gain options.
Excelente Jordan! Muchas Gracias por tus aportes y la transmisión clara de los conocimientos! y por el libro también! Saludos desde Argentina
it’s just for tracking and final mix.
your mic, board/interface, cables, etc have analog noise and interferences.
high input without messing with the spl of the mic, no clipping, and you’re golden.
in the daw doesn’t matter at all. track, bus, master. can be wherever without clips.
At 00:3:00 you mention 'turn up the fader as much as you want without introducing any more noise."
This is incorrect.
If you record at-18 dB your noise floor rises from -96 dB to -78 dB.
If you raise that level to 0 dB from -18 dB, your noise floor remains the same, just like in the analogue world.
Bill P.
In your explanation of "back in the day", it's not true that faders would be at zero when recording, unless the signal had to go through the fader - as in when the signal was being fed to a group before going to the recorder. In the 4 consoles I worked on between 1977 to 1985, any single channel that was going to a single track only went through the input preamp and then perhaps through the equalizer, which had its own amplifier to make up the gain lost if the eq was passive. The signal was controlled for, as you suggested, the maximum signal to achieve the desired sound and not include unwanted noise. Sometimes a gate would be inserted before the signal went to the track. The fader, which is only a passive device and hence "unity" effectively took its existence out of the circuit, only affected what I listened to in the control room, after the tape recorder. Panning and reverb/effects sends followed the fader in individual channels, as did the master buss. Some consoles did not work this way, wherein the fader did affect the signal to the tape recorder, but they weren't very desirable, at least not in the studios I worked in.
The most important thing about gain staging in today's hybrid recording environment, imnsho, is to understand it enough to know in what circumstances it's important and the effect of it on achieving the sound one wants. In a single piece of very popular gear, the tube guitar amp like a Fender VibroChamp, gain staging plays a part - or, understanding it allows one to get more control of what goes through it. Knowing where the volume control is in the circuit plays a big part in getting the most out of that very simple circuit. The volume pot follows the first gain stage, meaning it has no control over what is coming in at the input jack. That first gain stage is set, and one can only affect its behaviour by increasing or decreasing the signal being fed to the input of the amp- effectively, the closer one can control how close that first stage can get to the point of breakup, allows the player a much fuller playing experience. The gain of the output tube is also fixed in that amp, meaning only the voltage of the signal going through it could be adjusted, by the single volume control and the tone controls. If you were to work in a studio with an analogue console you weren't familiar with, the block diagram for that mixer becomes very important. With that, you can see where the gain stage are and make more informed, predictable use of that mixer. As for emulation plugins and the small type where the maker mentions what level to apply to its input as a starting point, ignoring that means one is not really interested in emulating the original, analogue behaviour - which is subjectively is fine, but the result would probably not be as accurate as the money spent on the plugin represented.
With regards to unity on the faders. the gain reduction is exponential as you go down the fader (in Ableton for example) it acts in a way as a limiter and you can squash/lose dynamics by having all faders pulled down hard. By gain staging in channel and keeping them closer to zero there's much less dynamic loss
Now at the end when you said, "to sum it all up..", should I be summing up my conversations at -18dB or is there another level you feel would be punchier?🤣
Sorry. Loved this video, thanks for the calming voice of reason.
👍Definitely, the only person choosing to follow the sense attained from the great dawn of recording and mixing. It gets no simpler than, if it's too loud and clipping/distorting: turn it down! All the trying to make the mixing console pretty by keeping all faders at unity is nonsense too. There is not even a hard rule that the master fader cannot be turned down to achieve a volume either.
A lot of new introductions and complications have risen because of the DAW and its accessibility to a MASS of inexperienced people wanting to be engineers...there is far more involvement with mixing than gain staging that requires technical experience. I.e. possible inverted audio cancelling out other audio (an ear thing or zooming into audio file on the timeline and see the inverted difference, etc.
TRUTH: mixes suck because the EARS are not the sole and primary...even a so-called properly gain staged mix can suck just the same. Plus if one is gain staging an obvious (they exist) horrible song, why does staging even matter? I think importing files to the timeline and turning up or down visual loudness (because one has seen what they look like in reference to mixing ONLY a million times) makes far more sense. I'm sure you can also identify what a breath or sibilance looks like for the same reasons: when you know, you know!
Lol, it's a long-winded AGREE about it being nonsense for me too! I have RIAA certifications from gold and platinum sales and none of them came from over-thinking gain staging, and the ones to follow will not either. I'll continue to use my ears and expertise the way it has always been done. #FinalLevelLivesMatter
So lets say I'm happy with how my mix sounds, and it's not clipping, but it's hitting -3 before sending to mastering. Would you say that reducing gain on the output channel (and I mean gain rather than turning down the channel fader) so it's, I dunno, -6 for mastering headroom, is okay? It seems like a cheat... but IS IT lol
Great video thanks, THAT CLEARS STUFF UP. I have an issue that I cant seem to solve you may be able to help. In running logicc pro on an M1 Mac , my sound card is Universal Audio Apollo 16 Mii. I have a bunch of out board pr amps that i use. The issue is although the output levels on the VU meters in the DAW are all pretty high around -12 to 9 and the stereo bus out put to my Apollo are at around -3 the apollo output bus shows a healthy stereo output at around -3 but the actual audio is not very loud. My amps are turned up to nearly full so its not that and also when Ive bounced a mix its not any where close to the volume Id expect, Ive compared with CD's and the signal of my mix is much lower. The Apollo 16 has the option to set the monitor level output to 14dbu or 20 dbu but that shouldnt effect the level of the bounces. Any clues ?
Well it sucks you can’t download the book anymore, because this was this first video I’ve seen in a looong time that actually taught me something I didn’t realize. I want caught up the online hype (because I already know how to gain stage) but I WAS gain starting the old way thinking it still mattered. But no obviously you’re right, there should be no excess noise in a DAW. I think it probably still matters to have your guitar gain staged correctly into you interface, but I do definitely leave more headroom than I would’ve before on an analog recorder (like my old Roland 1680r for example 😂) so yeah great video man thank you lol
Hi, I got this as a direct e-mail from you but no place to leave comments on it and the link that appeared on your website for the free book from your video, Mixing Heavy Music, came back as a "404-error (page not found)". So came over to You Tube to see if there was another link I missed and there wasn't. It had the same link and it also yielded a 404 error. Any chance you could e-mail a link to the book? Thanks!
I agree with everything you said, except about tolerating red lights - I know we are working with 32 and 64 bit floating points, but that's still sloppy practice ..... that being said, good tutorial!!!
I think your video is very interesting, but it does not help clarifying. Any excess does not really help, from "scary -18dB" to "gain staging is bullshit". Truth stays somewhere in the middle.
- Gain staging should not be a pain or produce fear and anxiety, you are fully right
- You do not need to be an engineer but a rough understanding of gain, volume, clipping and saturation may help (all along the sound path)
- A lot of misunderstanding is due to unlabelled numbers you find on gear or ignorance on the previous point. A 0 on an analog preamp, an AD interface or in the DAW do have different meaning. I know you are talking only about mixing in the DAW, but...
- ...but many people are also recording at home and this is where -18 is coming from most of the time on the web. Many people are pushing the AD to the limit of 0 with clipping risk (the 0 there is important indeed!) and this is totally unnecessary. This is why separating analog - recording - mixing (daw) is important. I know your are talking about the last one only but it's easy for newbies to just extend to other domains (especially if they do not understand)
- In your video you do gain staging "when trimming visually, based on experience". My point here is that people without experience are screwed. This is where a numerical indication may become handy as a starting point (-18 to -12). This is not a rule, those numbers ain't magic or silver bullet, but starting point yes. And, by the way, you are also trying to "visually normalize" your inputs, and if you go and take a look at the volume you probably "visually" set them between -18 and -12... :-) My point here is again: do not mix using numbers, but do not ostracize them either
- Gain staging is not by itself improving the mix in terms of quality but it may improve the process of mixing. Even with few tracks if you are pushing them towards 0, they end up overloading every bus they feed at any change. This is not necessarily a sound issue, but you end up touching all faders and volumes all the time, sound somehow changes and you feel lost. So leaving some (head)room may not improve the sound but will help tracks to sit in the mix more easily
- Unfortunately what sounds louder also seems to sound better, so controlling the gain/volume across plugins is also important. It is not really for the sweet point stuff (I agree this is a bit overrated) but a cultural/mental approach: when you apply an FX try to keep the balance between in and out. I know that peaks and loudness are not the same but keeping an eye on how we affect the mix may help and is generally healthy
- Having red lights on faders may still sound good, ok, but let's be very clear: this is true if it's a desired effect, most of the time it's an unwanted side effect. So the problem here is: when you have several tracks and FX and lot of red lights and the sound is crap, where should I focus to solve? An experienced guy finds out, many newbies won't. This is where IMHO gain staging helps. It's not THE solution, is not a necessary condition for a great result but it's something I would consider to keep the process under control and make life easier
- About faders, if you use an external MIDI controller you feel the difference on actual position
- Most of "gain adjustments" should not be performed using faders, but using gain trims or plugins in/out gains. This helped me a lot in my experience because while the fader may "make the light green again", it may hide strange stuff going on in the "channel FXs strip". When you have complicated routing and poor gain control you feel lost. Again: does this mean the mix will sound crap? Not necessarily, but it will most probably put you in that position where any change requires other 1000 adjustments in many places and screws the balance and THAT in my opinion is what scary newbies: the feeling to be in an unstable balance point. A good control on gain may (MAY) help in self confidence
At the end of the day there is no rocket science and nothing to be afraid of, but there are some points to keep in mind. No strict rules, but starting points, advices, and rules of thumb. Probably one of the issues is the name: "gain staging" sounds technical and abstract, maybe "keep track volume reasonable at every stage (recording, FX input, FX output, bus)" sounds less cryptic.
Anyway, this video was a valuable contribution, thanks
A
YES, I do believe plugin companies would build flawed products. 25+ years of software development talking here :)
Thank you for this, been stressing over gain staging like I somehow missed the essence of mixing and mastering. I've been rapidly progressing in my skills so I guess I've got an ear for it!
I like this method of not going into a major overwhelm about keeping the level perfect in the recording stage. The information knowing the DAW has plenty of headroom is definitely good to know and keeps my focus on playing the arrangement.
That's why I think every plugin should have an input knob with an indicator that tells the user if the input level is okay or too low or high, no matter what level the plugin expects. And usually I'll just make sure that the level doesn't change much when I bypass a plugin in order to not have to adjust input gain further down the line (assuming that plugins in general deal well with an RMS level of -18dfFS).
I do a very loose form of staging. Not on every channel. But I'll typically have an EQ, then a vu, then a limiter (Not a limiter on every channel all the time)....and then add plugins backwards from the limiter. I only use it as a guide and a tool to help keep everything sounding relatively even in gain and volume. If it doesn't seem like it's working I'll remove it and not gain stage or I'll modify based on what it needs. Like I said I keep it loose.
What about the advice of trying to make the bypass on/off “volume” of a plugin / effect roughly the same? Another part of the gain-staging bandwagon is doing this to keep it at the -18 DbFS, but perhaps this is sound advice anyway if we ignore gain staging.
Thanks for simplifying and emphasizing the essence))) It takes me a lot of time trying to mix one song, but now I wanna try to mix a song within a day, maybe within a few days
I do appreciate your take on gain staging in a digital setting. However gain staging in such a way to leave yourself plenty of headroom is still beneficial for someone using a DAW.
For one, the mastering process can still benefit from having the extra space to work with, no matter what platform is used to do it.
But even more than that, it's not a guarantee that everyone who uses these DAWs will ALWAYS be using DAWs, and getting into proper practice of leaving headroom just means that you won't have to relearn how to mix once you're faced with an analog setup.
I learned recording and production engineering in a professional studio, using consoles like the SSL and the Neve. I also learned how to use Pro Tools in this same school, and professional engineers explained that although in a digital workspace there is far less worry about clipping, not every track being made will be fully mixed "in the box". It's just smart to know what proper gain staging is and utilize it every time you mix.
I do agree that there's no "golden ratio" for gain staging, such as your average level being at -18dB. The only thing I make sure of is that before the signal hits the master track, I'm peaking around -6dB, giving me enough headroom for the mastering part of the process. This can be done a number of ways, but I do tend to keep my faders near unity gain (0dB) and gain stage through my channel inputs (using FL Studio). However, you could have everything come in hot and simply turn them all down by their faders, or on a buss. Really it's up to you as long as you leave that headroom on the master.
Nothing wrong with your technique, and for people who aren't as into the engineering side of audio production as myself, it's better to avoid the headache most times. But there are reasons why people make so much fuss over gain staging. Even you mention that you eyeball your gain staging because of years and years of experience, which these folks may not have.
This is the second pro engineer Ive heard call out the bs of gain staging, Andrew Scheps being the other one. Im confident in their opinions, to all those arguing in the comments. Pretty sure their mixes are a bit more relevant than ours
I think I have some mild disagreements. Should you not record at a hotter input level to keep the noise floor lower as well as more consistent, especially with multiple levels of compression? Surely being flippant with input level is not a good idea. I'm sure you're not suggesting to be flippant, but you did say not so low you can't see it, but not so hot it clips, which is pretty vague.
And is there not a workflow benefit to gain staging and keeping fader movements to minimum? If for nothing else but overcoming visual bias of seeing a fader at say, -45db compared to one at +3db, and overcoming urges to push something to be louder as a result, and for neatness?
Gain staging sounds bollocks and is bollocks. Same category with compressor plugins reacting better when file is printed realtime.
Very, very eye (ear?) opening. The ears have to decide. Great! Thank YoU!
I think the issue of gain staging for me is just ensuring a proper balance of signal from stems to final master fader. The addition of tracks and processing often increase gain, which requires a constant rebalancing during the mixing phase. You can hear the difference between how a plugin reacts to too hot of a signal, which is always less pleasing than an analog piece. A collective of "too hot signal" plugins can change the tone of a mix, and can affect everything down the chain. So its a constant checking, and rechecking through the processing chain. Its not complicated - its just something to be aware of.
This is the worst advice given good simplification, but there is a difference when you set a proper preamp volume without touching the
Faders. Simply focusing on trim and output levels.
I can stain gauges, but it's a lot harder to gauge stages - and honestly, I don't see what's to gain from staging gauges anyway.
But I like these videos anyway - it seems like every video he's telling me some shit I've heard a million times is wrong!! haha.... But it's all stuff that seemed kinda sus to begin with and never really made sense to me, anyway - so I trust this guy more.
More than the randos on reddit, anyway.
Thanks for making the videos.
Sorry but no. Not that I disagree with you, but no, this isn't really addressing what everyone else is teaching about gain staging. Cause everything is in agreement from everything I've learned and heard before. that recording levels arent as important, dont clip in dont clip out. So what are you refuting here? What gain staining is being taught as is something you didn't visually at the end, the part where you adjusted the clip gain, well you did what it is you're telling everyone not to worry about. And I highly doubt you just import track and dont even give clip gain a thought. no you just have lots of years behind you so you visualize what everyone else is using number for. -18db is simply a goal to get your tracks to so in the end, they appear to look the same as yours. that's it. no are there douche bags out there who will say its more important than it really is? yeah, yes there are. but hypochondriac exist too, doesn't mean you dont go to the doctors when you're sick. so it gain staging a huge deal, not so much. but to tell everyone its no big deal, that's not helpful to them either.
The more I watch TH-cam, the more I see wannabe mixers and engineers making videos full of ridiculous information. That is besides the tons of total stupidity. People watch other videos made by beginners who have never made a cent in audio acting like experts and they make their own videos based on that stupidity. There should be knowledgeable people like you who list those bad channels. How else can beginners know they are watching garbage. I see comments on those bad channels saying how much they just learned and I am telling you some of these channels are terrible.
personally, i still do gain staging despite doing 100% of all the work inside the box. I am not sure why but i am able to hear everything perfectly when none of the channels are clipping and also the master channel as well remains below 0, kind of a "pre mixing" basically, as opposed to just continue composing and recording and having the master channel well beyond 0 but since its digital no distortion, i notice that there are elements that begin to mask or simply cant cut through the other elements until is time to actually mix the session.
I have been obsessing over the fucking levels on every track for a while and can’t get a good heavy mix to save my life. Best advice USE YOUR EARS!
What the hell is this!?!? This guys says to use your ears when mixing?! Why did I buy these beautiful and Fab looking plugins !?! But seriously, this is great (and freeing) advice. Big ups!
Got this video recommended to me again, and I’m not mad. Ever since this video I stopped stressing about gain staging😂
You made a very good summary on all this gain staging stuff, though it seems guitars and bass recordings are still affected by it to some extend (virtual pedals, amps and cab loaders are very picky with it sometimes).
Btw, that example you showed in Pro Tools: It depends on the DAW, some may have the fader before the summing and some others after, some DAWs even have the summing happens before any plugins on the channel.
I'm gonna resharethis video, I hope you don't mind ;)
Curious if you can name me the DAW that has the summing before any plugins on their insert channels? Protools, Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio, Ableton, Reaper, Studio One, Reason, Bitwig...is it any of those? From my experience, none of these are doing what your suggest other DAWs might. I'm sure they exist, I literally just don't know which you're referring to. Seems counter-intuitive. You'd have to adjust every plugin on the insert every time you change the fader.
If you're recording with mics, the signal to noise rule still holds, so record as hot as possible.
Only if you're going straight in does all this apply.
Above all, use your fucking ears!
The most encouraging video for the beginners. Love you
to be frank there is an advantage to not recording instruments too quiety: besides the fact that the ADC of your soundcard will still introduce some noise you will also slightly decrease the dynamic range by recording at a lower volume. If you record in 32 bit it probably will be fine but generally the more "area" between -1 an 1 in the digital waveform you cover the more different points will be available to you. If you just record between -0.1 and 0.1, you will just naturally just have a tenth of the dynamic range, even if you normalize it later. The effect is, technically, close to that of a bit reduction plugin. I'd suggest recording at a medium level where you don't run the danger of clipping but still use a good chunk of the avaiable space of the signal.
Right. This video seems to completely ignore the reality of preamps.
Should I pull down the fader on the master bus or put the master fader at 0 and use a plugin to turn down? Which is better? Or are they same in the end?
idk what type of music he produces but this is terrible advice for any electronic or bass type music. it's ALL about correct bussing & gain staging.
The truth is when you properly gain stage rap music you kill the vibe of distorted 808s and crunchy 909 snares
I think it would be nice to see a video on balance. Because u are making moves to get your balance right based on your experience but Most videos just do this but never talk about it. What are you listening for?
One very successful mix engineer said he doesn't think about gain staging at all: Andrew Scheps
About having your faders at zero. The the 7”s engineers got there balance from mic positioning. They were ratchet by dudes who recorded this way since the advent if the L P in the 50s. By the 90s when working on the G 4000 series inwards ( E could update their firmware to achieve the following too ) we could zero / null our faders without changing tbd mix level. Something I did often. This was a very helpful in several situations; especially’ fader creep.’ Great Video. Thanks
Not a single comment here about “Serbinsynth” or “Pad Thai”. Incredible.
PS - I can’t believe I didn’t think about the tracks in the 100s getting mismatched with the tracks in the 10s
why are you making it seem like gain staging is this terribly complex thing that is confusing people? getting your inputs to a good level is just good practice. it makes mixing a little easier. If people want to gains stage to -18db or do it the way you did it they are accomplishing the same goal.
Time for an update:) 32 bit float, i keep all yes all my faders on 0 and only trim audio file level and Plugin itself.
I've been playing guitar and bass for more than three decades, with planty of live performance and professional studio time, but I'm new to home recording, so i needed this. Thanks!
Gain staging yeah, it's just loudness, turn it down, use a reference track
I thought this gain-staging thing I learned this morning was the cat’s ass, until I saw this video. Now it seems like snake oil.
Thank you for this.
Logic has the option to normalize all tracks automatically to a preset level. Pretty simple and handy.
But how then I make proportions between tracks if all will be “the same level”? Or this is only gain of each track? Thx for answer anybody
It's actually a good practice to understand and employ that will allow you to achieve consistency across all of your mixes. One huge challenge that causes people to stumble while learning to mix is having their monitors' loudness too low. Granted, we should be checking at different levels and (if you have them) sets of monitors, but the nominal level is ordinarily set too low at the outset. So, you punch-up a mix and before you know it you're in the red all over the place.
I breathed deeply after watching you
Always thinking about gain staging gain staging
I knew what you taught but was thinking it isn’t correct