I'm confused. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the sensor probes inside the condenser (not electrical) cabinet so they can respond to cooling load? On a cool day, wouldn't the fans shut off, and be unable to respond to the heat coming off the condensers?
Finally a clean and big cabinet, not these small corners where all the electrical stuff is packed beyond believing and where is no room to get a single wire traced down because all is a big messy ball made of wires. This cabinet could have been planned and designed by me...
Its amazing what some pre-planning, ~20 extra minutes, labels, and some zip ties can do for the serviceability and longevity of control/service equipment. Taking pride in your work is something not just beneficial to yourself but to these industries as a whole! I personally find it quite cathartic and satisfying once complete.
I've encountered icemakers where they were shut off, and I did the same thing, flipped the cusser on, and it immediately harvested ice and kept on going. I inspected the condenser; it was nearly rotted bare, there were next to no fins left! Their contract tech put in a replacement condenser and things were restored to right. The sun had come up and caused the machine to trip on high head, and stayed like that until I had encountered it. I do not apply gauges to an icemaker due to how sensitive they are when it comes to the charge. This was before your digital gauges and valves at the connectors. All I had were quick disconnects. They were bulky and a general hazard if they malfunctioned.
Back when I was working in BOH, we'd kill our machine once a month to clean it. Some of us do it because health ratings are one hell of a thing and all of us used it for our coolers and shit if we had a day off. (Side note) Whoever wired that fuckin thing in was an idiot when they did it. Had to kill it through the breaker, they never wired in a switch
Only in residential HVAC/R school right now, but i watch all your commercial videos and can’t wait to work on stuff like this. Huge mentor, from myrtle beach!
Thanks for the great videos. I had a problem with a hoshizaki that beeped at me at work. Loved that it had this huge decal of how to take care of it on a panel and it had a # to call for repairs. Called it up and they told me to check a couple things and bam, bad relay. I wish it was all that easy lol. Only problem is nobody at my company set up any PM for it and it got super nasty. Covid happened and they switched to a hands free unit with foot pedals. Now it just sits in the corner. I'll buy some of that cleaner your always showing from your recommendations and I'm going to get a hat from you soon. Dont sell out of them lol.
Probably didn't want the possibility of loosing all the fans at the same time if the thermostat fails. I thought maybe they could have run a line back from the compressors to a relay each and wire the contacts so that if one of the compressors is running the relevant fans are started.
We had an issue with my Manitowoc Indigo-series at work (on top of a Cornelius soda dispenser). No response from the lever operated by the customer's cup. So I go over and take a look, and verify the complaint. No ice dispensing, no gear motor running, and I watched it for a while and heard no sound of the agitator kicking in at all. Grumbling to myself, I climb up onto the beverage counter - the display screen is displaying what appeared to be firmware version of something (I wasn't paying too much attention other than no obvious error codes and was not displaying mode selection or ice level). I couldn't figure out how to open up the front panel (it has the "key guard bezel" and I was kinda in a hurry) and I couldn't even look up the model number because it's installed about 2 1/2" inches from the wall (can't read/access the factory tag) and the Sharpie writing on the paper label on the front is too faded to read. So what is the easiest solution to attempt? Unplug, wait a minute, plug back in. In hindsight, it would have been easier to go to the breaker panel and just flip the breaker because it has its own dedicated breaker... Anyway, the "reboot" worked, as it started making ice and has been fine since. (Certain managers were setting the heat to 80 again, when it was over 80 outside, and I thank myself every day for changing the thermostat's max temp down from 88, I figure it just overheated.) On another fun note, this past Tuesday our Blodgett convection oven burst into flames, minutes before opening. Four months of sporadic "ERRoR" and shutdowns, four months of the tech denying there was a problem (even accusing us of inventing a problem just to get a new oven). The last two months he demanded cell phone photos of the display every time it shut down on us. He comes in, turns it on, it gets up to temp, he pronounces it trouble-free, and leaves. Except Tuesday the entire electrical end of it burned to a nice crispy mess, the cook pulled the emergency fire suppression system, and when I got to work Tuesday afternoon it was to scrub the entire kitchen from top-to-bottom to clean up the mess left behind by the fire suppression system. Over $7500 in ruined product (food, paper goods, 5 fryers' worth of oil, etc.) and another $6000-8000 in lost sales for the day. Then, the next day, another couple grand's worth of food had to be disposed of because prepped food in the walk-ins (not affected by the incident) had to be thrown out per the health department. Right on the heels of that compressor replacement on our Traulsen. Which is working wonderfully again. Ah, the joys of working in Food Service.
That's some crazy shit lol. There's nothing wrong with it, place almost burns to the ground. If I was that tech I'd throw in the towel and find another profession before I killed someone.
SuburbanDon, there were a/c units named WORTHINTON ALL drawings were by E.SMITH, ALL WIRES WERE RED, OH there were tags on 1 end if you could see them, there WAS a wirieing diagram , but REDUCED in size so you needed an MAGNIFYING GLASS to read them . Thank god they no longer make them , but lots of them out there , cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Good video ! Good find on those mechanicals. Good Repair. Exactly how I would have done it. 😉 Tip - if u are servicing that account now I’d Grab 6 of those bolt in fuses next time u are at a Electrical supply house and Keep them in that cabinet in a Tupperware box. Just bill the customer for them. 😉
Chris needs to know that his beard makes him cooler. 1 like equals 1mm more beard for Chris. With 770 likes Chris will be as cool as Bill from Curious HVAC.
Good find! Great job on how you installed those thermostats! I agree with you on what you told your customer! There can always be multiple issues and you don't have time to watch the machine until the ice fills up! Thanks for another awesome video!
That switch needs a protective cover over it. I use them in my Father's home for the outside lights that have photocells. Prevents people from turning them off just the same.
This is an excellent point. Only the technician and manager should have access to those switches. Not any customers, subordinate employees, etc. The technician should educate the manager on the switches too.
@@kalijasin I've seen clear plastic covers on Amazon and at the hardware store. On the side there is still a tiny gap so you can activate the switch without removing the cover, but accidental trips will be eliminated.
it needs something like these. www.homedepot.com/p/AMERELLE-Switch-Guards-2-Pack-SG1/100628705 if it's kids involved, there's models that are solid on sides with holes at top/bottom for key/pen to turn on/off
I watch random videos baked af and I watch yours alot I know nothing about these I'm a audio tech ...but it's cool! And pretty cool to learn this stuff
Really interesting where all the site refrigeration shares the same condenser rack, I've not come across that in the UK, must be a US thing. Just a note, and I don't know how true this is, but years ago an electronics engineer told me you shouldn't loop the spare probe cable when tidying it as it can act as an aerial for EMF & therefore give erroneous readings.
Even if you were doing temperature control, wouldn't you want it to depend on the temperature of the condenser? Seems like a very strange setup indeed.
So what is the purpose of a fuse? To protect the wiring. What is the amperage of those fuses? I'll bet it's above the wiring rating that is attached to them. What about that?
It's great to see someone so through and knowledgeable I love your work ethic do it rite the first time keep up the amazing work awsome videos I actually was talking to my boss about your videos he is a electrical mechanical engineer mastering in refrigeration he was a bit jealous
Could use you teaching some classes up in the north country of NY. We have some amazing techs then we have some not so much through various companies around the area. I try and do my best as a hvac tech... but still so much more I'd love to learn
I'm going to assume that you've never seen a 3 phase disconnect switch blow up when pulled or put in or you wouldn't have operated that one with a pair of Channel Locks and a bare hand.
@@ratchet1freak the breakers are after that disconnect so that wouldn't make a difference. Even so idk what this guy dirt road sailing is talking about. For one thing if he has channel locks that's not "bare" hands. That's just a switch not a load. The metal part of the handle does not make contact with any of the electrical... If it blows up someone wired something incorrectly. I've been working on this stuff everyday for years. I've never seen what this guy is suggesting happen ever
@@AnUnapologeticApologist On a new or damaged installation maybe a risk. Chris removed that risk by opening all the downstream breakers first. Plus the rack was running when he got there it's good. Similar disconnects we have in Australia the handle interlocks with the operator rod, you can't open the door with the switch on, makes fault tracing impossible.
I remember that you talked about the sequence of operation of an ice machine in some recordings, but I couldn't find them. Could you share links with me? Thank your.
Is the placement of the temperature sensors the best? It is good to have them outside, but at some points of a day they might be in a direct sunlight. It was not clear what is the orientation of the unit relative to the sun.
That would for sure be something you should consider on a case-to-case basis. Any way you slice it though being out of that cabinet is going to net you a much closer measure of actual ambient conditions. If its windy that will help keep the condenser a bit cooler, regardless of where the sun is, whereas measuring in that box it will always be stagnant and like an oven throughout the day.
Good call on moving those thermostats over to the smaller breaker. I suspect the original wiring violated some section of the NEC. Those big fuses were probably around 100A, and that wire to the thermostats was probably #12 or #14, which is only rated for around 20A. The fuse is supposed to protect the wire, and a 100A fuse won't protect a #12 wire.
True but sometimes not nessesary. If the devices are protected by themselfs (datasheet basically) and the wire has a max length there are exceptions to this. However that does not mean its a good idea in the slichtest
As a electrician not US , why is the lockout mechanism with i guess 90A fuses (i hope not) immediately terminating from AWG 8 to AWG 14/AWG 16? without smaller fuses in between ? that whole string of smaller wires on the left side is fed from the terminalblock is (lockout--->AWG 8---->AWG 16 ----> Breaker) if there is a short phase to phase or phase to ground/neutral in the string between the big terminal Block and and the breakers there is nothing to stop it to melt/burn. Max Amp for AWG 14 in single core is 24A but bunched up like this it drops down to 15A or less? is there something i am not seeing? or why is it build like that?
I noticed that you never checked the DIFFERERENTAL, on those original PENN CONTROLS , ONLY THE ‘SET POINTS! But this is the very FIRST TIME I ever saw an ice maker that was connected to other things , so what brand was that ice maker anyhow. ? 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I'm a little confused about those fan thermostats. If the outside temperature is below the settings, what turns them on when the coil temperature gets high?
With thermostat controlled condenser fans, could there ever be a situation where the compressors would be running without the fans if the temp dropped enough? Or is there a safety measure in place?
the big fuses with small gauge wire, toggle switch and controllers, if anything shorted it would most likely trip the breaker at panel before blowing the fuses. not it should trip the breaker you wired them to instead
Hi Chris, This was an interesting one, being a control problem. That toggle switch brings me back to a conversation we had while working on a medium temp rack at a grocery store. Every bit of switch gear that is in the rack becomes a failure point, so think about that when installing relays, switches, etc. Regards, Duncan
When you started the unit after putting in the tstats reminded me of when I had to rewire 2 million btu heaters to shut off the fan when the flame goes out. Woof
Mechanical switches always an issue. Electronic is your best bet. Leibert uses the same mechanical thermostats to control 2 of 3 of their condenser fan motors.
The manufacturer likely went with two temp controllers as standard to account for as many installation scenarios as possible where you may have different requirements for different sections of the rack. In this case I presume you could run both contactors off the same controller, or do they have a load limit that would prevent that?
The A421, and older A419, has only one output relay. So it is not even possible. Two contactors here do switch on at different set points, so they can't be commoned to a single relay. (If this is what would you want, then sure, you can connect them together, it will still be withing limits of the relay inside, no problem). He would need to use something like Johnson Controls / Lenn MS2, which might be actually more than 2 times the cost of A421, and a bit harder to program, because of how many extra options it has for different applications. Also Johnson Controls / Lenn MS2 requires 24V to operate so you need external power supply. Other option would be Ranco ETC-241000, which is about 155$ (including the temperature sensor), so that isn't too expensive. Definitively cheaper than 2x A421 (each about 85$).
@@NofaKingway Some newer models from companies like Trent, do have so advanced controller for everything that it could probably be all controlled from single controller (all compressors, fans, temperature sensors, remote management, diagnostic). For example Trane Tracer UC400 or UC600, or Trance CH536. (They can cost from 1300$ to 3000$ depending on option, like extra LCD display, etc). They do have a lot of inputs, low and high voltage outputs, relays and triacs. And even have small extensions with extra relays (which you can add or replace individually, probably up to ~50 outputs). But you wouldn't put this into existing unit of different manufacturer. I am sure there are other options on the market too. But too much cost, too much work, too much to figure out if it is all done correctly and configured, and if controller breaks (or some transistor fails) then you need to replace costly part (585$ for just the PCB without enclosure and display). Plus if the unit is going to be then maintained by other techs, they will be lost, because controller and setup doesn't match the manual of the unit anymore. Separate controllers and boards to have a advantage in that they are cheaper to replace individually, and easier to understand just from the wiring alone, without going into software and configuration of advanced controller. So kind of easier to maintain by any tech. I do personally like these advanced controllers, but for new package models, not existing ones. Also these controllers aren't really inherently that complex and expensive to manufacture, so I expect priced to go down significantly down in the future as they become more popular.
Could be that they wanted the thing to fail gracefully when faced with a single component failure, so they went with two temperature controllers so if one fails you only lose one condenser fan. Chris made an improvement in that regard with the switch over to twin A421's, as that feature he mentioned about being able to set what happens when it has a failed sensor (he set it so it turns on the condenser fans when the sensor fails) now makes it fail in a way that allows it to continue operating (fail safe system), which is an improvement over graceful failure. The only improvement I can think of is some sort of way to signal that the sensor has failed without opening the rack's control cabinet, but I suppose opening the control cabinet could become part of preventative maintenance.
@@44R0Ndin yes of course. Independent two controllers provide some level of redundancy, but as you have seen both of them failed basically at the same time.
Really enjoy your videos. Quality stuff. I don't always agree with you but that could be a cultural difference between our kit and yours.. .Although constantly amazed at how poor cabinet wiring still is in America. Unshielded live terminals (esp 3 phase) is such bad and dangerous practice.. Really shoddy stuff. Reminds me of my old Carrier service UK days back in the mid 80's I thought the world had moved on..! .. Anyhoo looking forward to the next episode.Much respect:-)
if were me i would take that temp sensor put in front of cong that way can feel heat n kick on fan to keep it cooler n mostly u dont see is at night time n that going misread temp on cong cause head pressure get high aging
When the outside temp gets below the low ambient temp sensor and they both are off, what cools the condenser when the ice machine runs? That was a very interesting video. Thanks
Usualy there should be a set differential over the condenser, one is placed in the air entering and one sensor in the discharge, this way you can have a floating head pressure, benefitting from the colder ambient(low condensing pressure ~$ saving ), yet having sufficient subcooling out the oulet of the condenser
@@sjefoekel6058 Thanks a lot for the answer/clarification!! I study informatics but I'm really interested in refrigeration, thanks to Chris!! (and everything I know is because of him)
Hallo from germany , you do your job real good and in my eyes realy caful . Wantched some of your Videos , Like thet not even in germany the guys are working like you so careful :D so hugh greet , and sorry by the way for my school english .
@@tamtdc Good question. It is concerning. Or we miss something. Maybe compressors also do have high discharge temperature safety / disconnect? Not sure how would the help tho.
To me it seems like the 20A breaker for the temp controls would probably not even notice that the temp control goes bad. But at least it's better than nothing. But how about sensing the temperature in the area where the fan evacuates air? That would make more sense to me.
The walk ins may not have tripped because the head pressure wasn't high enough. You said it was running 315psi. I assume they're running 404a, most walk-ins have a hps around 425 with 404 . Maybe the higher head pressure caused extended freeze cycle times for the hoshi? That could be why it was locking out. Oh well, Those ambient fan controls were def the issue and that's all that matters. Nice job man
Guessing the logic behind the switch wiring was to allow troubleshooting of the control circuitry with the fan motor breaker off. Can then check if contactors closing etc without turning on the fans.
Nothing wrong with rewiring, it they way you did. I think it is better as you said. The thermostats + contactor coils will draw maybe 0.1A realistically.
I'm confused. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the sensor probes inside the condenser (not electrical) cabinet so they can respond to cooling load? On a cool day, wouldn't the fans shut off, and be unable to respond to the heat coming off the condensers?
Finally a clean and big cabinet, not these small corners where all the electrical stuff is packed beyond believing and where is no room to get a single wire traced down because all is a big messy ball made of wires. This cabinet could have been planned and designed by me...
Yes, for a change Chris did not have to rewire the entire box!
Its amazing what some pre-planning, ~20 extra minutes, labels, and some zip ties can do for the serviceability and longevity of control/service equipment. Taking pride in your work is something not just beneficial to yourself but to these industries as a whole! I personally find it quite cathartic and satisfying once complete.
I'm curious, that toggle switch, the wiring was, what? 16 gauge wire, 14 gauge? And the overcurrent is what? A 100 amp fuse? Really?
@@davidnull5590 Yes, that was odd and someone didn't think this through.
This is the cleanest restaurant install I've ever seen.
You are so meticulous and picky about your service, I wish you lived here and did residential HVAC. Subbed!
Always try an make sure I don't miss your latest video. Keep up the awesome content..Thank you.
I've encountered icemakers where they were shut off, and I did the same thing, flipped the cusser on, and it immediately harvested ice and kept on going. I inspected the condenser; it was nearly rotted bare, there were next to no fins left! Their contract tech put in a replacement condenser and things were restored to right. The sun had come up and caused the machine to trip on high head, and stayed like that until I had encountered it. I do not apply gauges to an icemaker due to how sensitive they are when it comes to the charge. This was before your digital gauges and valves at the connectors. All I had were quick disconnects. They were bulky and a general hazard if they malfunctioned.
" Walked in and a cook was scrubbing the machine " ... hmm...🤔 is the restaurant's location in Narnia ? Wonderland ? Unicorn County?
Back when I was working in BOH, we'd kill our machine once a month to clean it. Some of us do it because health ratings are one hell of a thing and all of us used it for our coolers and shit if we had a day off. (Side note) Whoever wired that fuckin thing in was an idiot when they did it. Had to kill it through the breaker, they never wired in a switch
Those KM hoshizakis are some of the best machines ever made.
Only in residential HVAC/R school right now, but i watch all your commercial videos and can’t wait to work on stuff like this. Huge mentor, from myrtle beach!
Great job. Sharing your skills and knowledge makes you a highly valuable person in this world. Ty
Thanks for the great videos. I had a problem with a hoshizaki that beeped at me at work. Loved that it had this huge decal of how to take care of it on a panel and it had a # to call for repairs. Called it up and they told me to check a couple things and bam, bad relay. I wish it was all that easy lol. Only problem is nobody at my company set up any PM for it and it got super nasty. Covid happened and they switched to a hands free unit with foot pedals. Now it just sits in the corner. I'll buy some of that cleaner your always showing from your recommendations and I'm going to get a hat from you soon. Dont sell out of them lol.
your video on a reach-in kairak from about two years ago really helped me out today. thank you for all of your videos, man!
I’m surprised that the manufacturer didn’t use one two stage thermostat which would have been less cost.
Probably didn't want the possibility of loosing all the fans at the same time if the thermostat fails. I thought maybe they could have run a line back from the compressors to a relay each and wire the contacts so that if one of the compressors is running the relevant fans are started.
We had an issue with my Manitowoc Indigo-series at work (on top of a Cornelius soda dispenser). No response from the lever operated by the customer's cup. So I go over and take a look, and verify the complaint. No ice dispensing, no gear motor running, and I watched it for a while and heard no sound of the agitator kicking in at all. Grumbling to myself, I climb up onto the beverage counter - the display screen is displaying what appeared to be firmware version of something (I wasn't paying too much attention other than no obvious error codes and was not displaying mode selection or ice level). I couldn't figure out how to open up the front panel (it has the "key guard bezel" and I was kinda in a hurry) and I couldn't even look up the model number because it's installed about 2 1/2" inches from the wall (can't read/access the factory tag) and the Sharpie writing on the paper label on the front is too faded to read.
So what is the easiest solution to attempt? Unplug, wait a minute, plug back in. In hindsight, it would have been easier to go to the breaker panel and just flip the breaker because it has its own dedicated breaker... Anyway, the "reboot" worked, as it started making ice and has been fine since. (Certain managers were setting the heat to 80 again, when it was over 80 outside, and I thank myself every day for changing the thermostat's max temp down from 88, I figure it just overheated.)
On another fun note, this past Tuesday our Blodgett convection oven burst into flames, minutes before opening. Four months of sporadic "ERRoR" and shutdowns, four months of the tech denying there was a problem (even accusing us of inventing a problem just to get a new oven). The last two months he demanded cell phone photos of the display every time it shut down on us. He comes in, turns it on, it gets up to temp, he pronounces it trouble-free, and leaves. Except Tuesday the entire electrical end of it burned to a nice crispy mess, the cook pulled the emergency fire suppression system, and when I got to work Tuesday afternoon it was to scrub the entire kitchen from top-to-bottom to clean up the mess left behind by the fire suppression system. Over $7500 in ruined product (food, paper goods, 5 fryers' worth of oil, etc.) and another $6000-8000 in lost sales for the day. Then, the next day, another couple grand's worth of food had to be disposed of because prepped food in the walk-ins (not affected by the incident) had to be thrown out per the health department.
Right on the heels of that compressor replacement on our Traulsen. Which is working wonderfully again. Ah, the joys of working in Food Service.
That's some crazy shit lol. There's nothing wrong with it, place almost burns to the ground. If I was that tech I'd throw in the towel and find another profession before I killed someone.
2:03. A surprisingly neat wiring job though there's not much color to hellp trace wires.
SuburbanDon, there were a/c units named WORTHINTON ALL drawings were by E.SMITH, ALL WIRES WERE RED, OH there were tags on 1 end if you could see them, there WAS a wirieing diagram , but REDUCED in size so you needed an MAGNIFYING GLASS to read them . Thank god they no longer make them , but lots of them out there , cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Good video ! Good find on those mechanicals. Good Repair. Exactly how I would have done it. 😉
Tip - if u are servicing that account now I’d Grab 6 of those bolt in fuses next time u are at a Electrical supply house and Keep them in that cabinet in a Tupperware box. Just bill the customer for them. 😉
super interesting video :) also the fact that you removed that tiny toggle switch in order to protect the fuses if a temp ctrl failed is just GENIUS
Hosazaki board doesn't lockout on HEAD PRESSURE.
My local hosazaki vendor void warranty if you don't buy CONDENSING UNIT and lineset with it.
Thats some nice troubleshooting keep it up! Only the temp was tripping it off
Chris needs to know that his beard makes him cooler. 1 like equals 1mm more beard for Chris.
With 770 likes Chris will be as cool as Bill from Curious HVAC.
How many mm are comments? Haha.
I want to give a big thumbs up to the manufacturer of that unit for the outstanding wiring configuration and overall neatness.
Here in Australia we would set the fans up on pressure switches so we can maintain enough head pressure for oil return
Good find! Great job on how you installed those thermostats! I agree with you on what you told your customer! There can always be multiple issues and you don't have time to watch the machine until the ice fills up! Thanks for another awesome video!
That switch needs a protective cover over it. I use them in my Father's home for the outside lights that have photocells. Prevents people from turning them off just the same.
This is an excellent point. Only the technician and manager should have access to those switches. Not any customers, subordinate employees, etc. The technician should educate the manager on the switches too.
@@kalijasin I've seen clear plastic covers on Amazon and at the hardware store. On the side there is still a tiny gap so you can activate the switch without removing the cover, but accidental trips will be eliminated.
it needs something like these. www.homedepot.com/p/AMERELLE-Switch-Guards-2-Pack-SG1/100628705
if it's kids involved, there's models that are solid on sides with holes at top/bottom for key/pen to turn on/off
Nice, neat wiring in the roof unit.
Hey chris, it's always a delight to see that you posted another video, love watching it👍👍👍👍
Gotta appreciate the clean and labeled wiring for sure haha
0:42 omg are those zip ties not trimmed oh heck no.....
Great job, you must have a high NTE and fully stocked van. Your videos are A+
I watch random videos baked af and I watch yours alot I know nothing about these I'm a audio tech ...but it's cool! And pretty cool to learn this stuff
bruh same. I don't know shit about HVAC but this guy is so knowledgeable that it's crazy interesting when baked af.
@@Coryyyyyyyy man, I'm learning new things and how to repair my own unit
Please show more live repairs on you channel ! Your fans love watching them !!
Really interesting where all the site refrigeration shares the same condenser rack, I've not come across that in the UK, must be a US thing. Just a note, and I don't know how true this is, but years ago an electronics engineer told me you shouldn't loop the spare probe cable when tidying it as it can act as an aerial for EMF & therefore give erroneous readings.
Why would you want no condenser fan unless it's below 50-60F outside, the kwh you save on fan will cost on higher head and higher kwh on compressor??
Even if you were doing temperature control, wouldn't you want it to depend on the temperature of the condenser?
Seems like a very strange setup indeed.
My understanding of the video was that there were three condenser fans, one that was always on and two that were triggered by ambient temperature.
@@petermichaelgreen ok your right and condenser fan 2 and 3 hv separate therms to turn on giving more cfm a higher temps, still 1 coil 1,2or3 fans.
I use the A-421 a lot to, great stuff ❄️
So what is the purpose of a fuse? To protect the wiring. What is the amperage of those fuses? I'll bet it's above the wiring rating that is attached to them. What about that?
Wow amazing video
I love This channel ❤❤❤❤❤
Great info. Great " Big Picture ".
Ive fallen in love with those a421 controllers. I use them all the time. Great upgrade over those
Mechanical guess o meters.
It's great to see someone so through and knowledgeable I love your work ethic do it rite the first time keep up the amazing work awsome videos I actually was talking to my boss about your videos he is a electrical mechanical engineer mastering in refrigeration he was a bit jealous
Another great video. Thank you Chris.
You are good. Installing the temperature sensors away from the sun in shade !!!!!!!!
Good video. I like using those 421’s for fan cycling.
Great job bro. 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Very helpful! Thank you!!
Could use you teaching some classes up in the north country of NY. We have some amazing techs then we have some not so much through various companies around the area. I try and do my best as a hvac tech... but still so much more I'd love to learn
Great job and video
I'm going to assume that you've never seen a 3 phase disconnect switch blow up when pulled or put in or you wouldn't have operated that one with a pair of Channel Locks and a bare hand.
there is a reason he turned off all the breakers in that unit...
@@ratchet1freak And there is a reason you turn off a disconnect from outside a panel.
@@ratchet1freak the breakers are after that disconnect so that wouldn't make a difference. Even so idk what this guy dirt road sailing is talking about. For one thing if he has channel locks that's not "bare" hands. That's just a switch not a load. The metal part of the handle does not make contact with any of the electrical... If it blows up someone wired something incorrectly. I've been working on this stuff everyday for years. I've never seen what this guy is suggesting happen ever
@@AnUnapologeticApologist On a new or damaged installation maybe a risk. Chris removed that risk by opening all the downstream breakers first. Plus the rack was running when he got there it's good. Similar disconnects we have in Australia the handle interlocks with the operator rod, you can't open the door with the switch on, makes fault tracing impossible.
@F P I have 35 years in a heavy industrial plant. You guys that toy around in HVAC don't have a clue about electrical.
I remember that you talked about the sequence of operation of an ice machine in some recordings, but I couldn't find them. Could you share links with me? Thank your.
Is the placement of the temperature sensors the best? It is good to have them outside, but at some points of a day they might be in a direct sunlight. It was not clear what is the orientation of the unit relative to the sun.
That would for sure be something you should consider on a case-to-case basis. Any way you slice it though being out of that cabinet is going to net you a much closer measure of actual ambient conditions. If its windy that will help keep the condenser a bit cooler, regardless of where the sun is, whereas measuring in that box it will always be stagnant and like an oven throughout the day.
@@Wiresgalore Good point.
Great find Chris!!!
Bro I'm into HVAC cause of you
And learning many things from you and even cleaned and checked out all of ACS in my building also fuses etc
Awesome!!
Hvac master. Love the videos. Always doing great work.
Awesome video 👍
Good call on moving those thermostats over to the smaller breaker. I suspect the original wiring violated some section of the NEC. Those big fuses were probably around 100A, and that wire to the thermostats was probably #12 or #14, which is only rated for around 20A. The fuse is supposed to protect the wire, and a 100A fuse won't protect a #12 wire.
True but sometimes not nessesary. If the devices are protected by themselfs (datasheet basically) and the wire has a max length there are exceptions to this. However that does not mean its a good idea in the slichtest
You’re work is impressive , thanks for these videos. I learn everyday in my now 21 years at age 39. In my opinion it’s got to be the toughest trade
Brilliant work and thanks for the content stay safe and take care
Great video hopefully your keeping safe from the wild fires!
Good job
You do excellent work!
Best guess 1 min in have an intermittent bin switch going bad had one like that that drove us crazy for a week or so
As a electrician not US , why is the lockout mechanism with i guess 90A fuses (i hope not) immediately terminating from AWG 8 to AWG 14/AWG 16? without smaller fuses in between ? that whole string of smaller wires on the left side is fed from the terminalblock is (lockout--->AWG 8---->AWG 16 ----> Breaker) if there is a short phase to phase or phase to ground/neutral in the string between the big terminal Block and and the breakers there is nothing to stop it to melt/burn. Max Amp for AWG 14 in single core is 24A but bunched up like this it drops down to 15A or less? is there something i am not seeing? or why is it build like that?
What’s the name of the connector you used to mount the sensors outside of the cabinet?
I love your videos man I stumbled across them randomly I’m even considering a job in HVAC. Have you ever been out to Fresno for a service call ?
I noticed that you never checked the DIFFERERENTAL, on those original PENN CONTROLS , ONLY THE ‘SET POINTS! But this is the very FIRST TIME I ever saw an ice maker that was connected to other things , so what brand was that ice maker anyhow. ? 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I'm a little confused about those fan thermostats. If the outside temperature is below the settings, what turns them on when the coil temperature gets high?
Great, great job man very nice!
Sequence of operations is a must
Hi Chris. Be glad you don’t have to work on Northstar drum style ice machines.
NICE
VIDEO
With thermostat controlled condenser fans, could there ever be a situation where the compressors would be running without the fans if the temp dropped enough? Or is there a safety measure in place?
the big fuses with small gauge wire, toggle switch and controllers, if anything shorted it would most likely trip the breaker at panel before blowing the fuses. not it should trip the breaker you wired them to instead
8:08 If two are showing 95 and the yellow one shows 98,7. Maybe it is the yellow one that is off?
I like it. Great video.
Hi Chris,
This was an interesting one, being a control problem.
That toggle switch brings me back to a conversation we had while working on a medium temp rack at a grocery store.
Every bit of switch gear that is in the rack becomes a failure point, so think about that when installing relays, switches, etc.
Regards,
Duncan
"Nothing blew up, so that's a plus" 🤣
haven't we all said that more than once.. Although I prefer my go to phrase at times like this: "Well it didn't go bang" myself..
When you started the unit after putting in the tstats reminded me of when I had to rewire 2 million btu heaters to shut off the fan when the flame goes out. Woof
Nice video
Mechanical switches always an issue. Electronic is your best bet. Leibert uses the same mechanical thermostats to control 2 of 3 of their condenser fan motors.
The manufacturer likely went with two temp controllers as standard to account for as many installation scenarios as possible where you may have different requirements for different sections of the rack. In this case I presume you could run both contactors off the same controller, or do they have a load limit that would prevent that?
The A421, and older A419, has only one output relay. So it is not even possible. Two contactors here do switch on at different set points, so they can't be commoned to a single relay. (If this is what would you want, then sure, you can connect them together, it will still be withing limits of the relay inside, no problem). He would need to use something like Johnson Controls / Lenn MS2, which might be actually more than 2 times the cost of A421, and a bit harder to program, because of how many extra options it has for different applications. Also Johnson Controls / Lenn MS2 requires 24V to operate so you need external power supply. Other option would be Ranco ETC-241000, which is about 155$ (including the temperature sensor), so that isn't too expensive. Definitively cheaper than 2x A421 (each about 85$).
@@movax20h Always a reason why things are done haha.
@@NofaKingway Some newer models from companies like Trent, do have so advanced controller for everything that it could probably be all controlled from single controller (all compressors, fans, temperature sensors, remote management, diagnostic). For example Trane Tracer UC400 or UC600, or Trance CH536. (They can cost from 1300$ to 3000$ depending on option, like extra LCD display, etc). They do have a lot of inputs, low and high voltage outputs, relays and triacs. And even have small extensions with extra relays (which you can add or replace individually, probably up to ~50 outputs). But you wouldn't put this into existing unit of different manufacturer. I am sure there are other options on the market too. But too much cost, too much work, too much to figure out if it is all done correctly and configured, and if controller breaks (or some transistor fails) then you need to replace costly part (585$ for just the PCB without enclosure and display). Plus if the unit is going to be then maintained by other techs, they will be lost, because controller and setup doesn't match the manual of the unit anymore. Separate controllers and boards to have a advantage in that they are cheaper to replace individually, and easier to understand just from the wiring alone, without going into software and configuration of advanced controller. So kind of easier to maintain by any tech. I do personally like these advanced controllers, but for new package models, not existing ones. Also these controllers aren't really inherently that complex and expensive to manufacture, so I expect priced to go down significantly down in the future as they become more popular.
Could be that they wanted the thing to fail gracefully when faced with a single component failure, so they went with two temperature controllers so if one fails you only lose one condenser fan.
Chris made an improvement in that regard with the switch over to twin A421's, as that feature he mentioned about being able to set what happens when it has a failed sensor (he set it so it turns on the condenser fans when the sensor fails) now makes it fail in a way that allows it to continue operating (fail safe system), which is an improvement over graceful failure. The only improvement I can think of is some sort of way to signal that the sensor has failed without opening the rack's control cabinet, but I suppose opening the control cabinet could become part of preventative maintenance.
@@44R0Ndin yes of course. Independent two controllers provide some level of redundancy, but as you have seen both of them failed basically at the same time.
Really enjoy your videos. Quality stuff. I don't always agree with you but that could be a cultural difference between our kit and yours.. .Although constantly amazed at how poor cabinet wiring still is in America. Unshielded live terminals (esp 3 phase) is such bad and dangerous practice.. Really shoddy stuff. Reminds me of my old Carrier service UK days back in the mid 80's I thought the world had moved on..! .. Anyhoo looking forward to the next episode.Much respect:-)
The KA rating of fused than your breaker (200vs14) in cases of a real short the fuse will burn first
if were me i would take that temp sensor put in front of cong that way can feel heat n kick on fan to keep it cooler n mostly u dont see is at night time n that going misread temp on cong cause head pressure get high aging
When the outside temp gets below the low ambient temp sensor and they both are off, what cools the condenser when the ice machine runs? That was a very interesting video. Thanks
dont quote me on this, but i think it would just be passive cooling since those are pretty big condensers
There were 3 condenser fans. So one always runs, and the other two are controlled by their respective thermostat. (I think)
Usualy there should be a set differential over the condenser, one is placed in the air entering and one sensor in the discharge, this way you can have a floating head pressure, benefitting from the colder ambient(low condensing pressure ~$ saving ), yet having sufficient subcooling out the oulet of the condenser
@@sjefoekel6058
Thanks a lot for the answer/clarification!! I study informatics but I'm really interested in refrigeration, thanks to Chris!! (and everything I know is because of him)
@@iosif9999 you are welcome, stay focused.
Just an observation ~ but a small protective wire guard around the exposed sensors would have been a nice finishing touch.
Great video!
Awesome Chanel and video 👌🙌😊👍🇭🇷
Good one Chris
If you made a podcast I would watch it and i bet a ton of other people would too.
Hallo from germany , you do your job real good and in my eyes realy caful . Wantched some of your Videos , Like thet not even in germany the guys are working like you so careful :D so hugh greet , and sorry by the way for my school english .
Hii sir, what is issue 3 beep in hoshizaki machine ?
Man, that's one of the cleaner cabinets I've seen! Too bad they all can't be like that
I'm confused - if its 75 outside, then the fans never run? - so the condenser just gets really hot....?
95 F outside.
@@movax20h huh?
@@tamtdc Oh. I see your question. Yes, I think if it is 75 outside, then fans don't run. That is my understanding.
@@movax20h exactly.. So what happens? Everything just cooks itself until it the compressor(s) goes off on high head pressure?
@@tamtdc Good question. It is concerning. Or we miss something. Maybe compressors also do have high discharge temperature safety / disconnect? Not sure how would the help tho.
YAY! May not be a tech but love the video's!
To me it seems like the 20A breaker for the temp controls would probably not even notice that the temp control goes bad. But at least it's better than nothing.
But how about sensing the temperature in the area where the fan evacuates air? That would make more sense to me.
The walk ins may not have tripped because the head pressure wasn't high enough. You said it was running 315psi. I assume they're running 404a, most walk-ins have a hps around 425 with 404 . Maybe the higher head pressure caused extended freeze cycle times for the hoshi? That could be why it was locking out. Oh well, Those ambient fan controls were def the issue and that's all that matters. Nice job man
Guessing the logic behind the switch wiring was to allow troubleshooting of the control circuitry with the fan motor breaker off. Can then check if contactors closing etc without turning on the fans.
Hoshizaki The Godfather of ice machines . I have some Hoshizakis with R-22 still going strong . The competition doesn’t like that 🤭😬🤷🏻♂️.
thank you for this vedio
Can I order stuff to Barbados?
Nothing wrong with rewiring, it they way you did. I think it is better as you said. The thermostats + contactor coils will draw maybe 0.1A realistically.
Should have weight the harvest a calculate poundage. Hosh is notorious for water valves bleeding through.