AH-64 Apache vs SA-19 Tunguska: Dogfight | DCS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- 0:00 Details
3:14 Predictions
5:48 ROUND 1 - SA-19 vs AH-64
10:08 ROUND 2 - AH-64 vs SA-19
13:09 ROUND 3 - SA-19 vs AH-64
16:20 ROUND 4 - AH-64 vs SA-19
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In 80s the Apache teams worked a version of the pink team from the Vietnam war while hunting.
In Vietnam an OH-6 Cayuse would be paired with a AH-1 Cobra, the OH-6 being the 'low bird's and the AH-1 the 'high bird'. The OH-6 pilot would fly low to get the attention of the ground troops and hidden AAA, but had the maneuverability to get out of the line of fire, most of the time. Once the enemy had given away their position, the AH-1 would roll in and clear up, hopefully.
Moving to the slightly less reckless 80s, and 2 AH-64 Apaches would be paired with an OH-58 Kiowa. The OH-58 pilot would fly just above tree tops, hopefully spotting bits instead of drawing them out, normally at an acute angle from where the AH-64s were, and then the AH-64 pilots would be guided in, allowing them to stay below treeline until the last second. The Longbow radar was the fix to this somewhat clunky tactic, allowing AH-64s to self spot.
On the other side, the Tunguska would always be fielded in a battery, normally linked up with some better radar somewhere. If on the move doing convey protection, they would have the eyes of the whole column to keep a watch out & spot.
Interesting experiment though, and fun to watch.
Underrated comment. People don't understand that the Longbow's FCR made the Kiowa obsolete.
retired in 2016, we had purple teams, 1 apache, 1 blackhawk with a squad of 11 joes, apaches make the kill, we would land and investigate, capture, kill, whatever
A couple decades ago when I worked in the intel shop of an attack aviation squadron, Tunguskas were the big bad bosses of all our war games. ISR assets made them extremely high priorities to locate, and once they were located, terrain analysis was done to plot ingress/egress routes to avoid them. Then we got upgraded to the Apache Ds, and they went from "avoid entirely" to "kill those bastards first".
Cap, you need to replay this mission. This time with the Apache side playing as the gunner to eliminate George's obvious advantage at identifying targets. It would be fun to watch you guys having to fly the bird via George and use you're ability to use the sensors to detect the Tunguska.
Agree
if anything, this vid should prove u just can do sead with choppers, its impossible to hunt hidden sams like this.. IR,electro optical systems can detect gunships pretty well, and usually they are hidden very well behind 4 or more buildings..they can scoop in-out in a second notice.. impossible to risk a 10-20 million apache for a tunguska..reality--choppers wouldn't fly nearer than 5-7 miles to enemy positions..
Hands down, one of your best vids!!!! LOVED IT!!
That was an amazing vid and great fun! Loved it! Get well!
Good fun, Thanks! De-slaving means the CPG had stored the SPI (The AH64s Markpoints) and is now de-slaving his sensor to keep seeking.
thx
Love your work :)
Yea should be human gunner/pilot would be fun.
Also if it could be possible to do a random 1-2 heli vs 1-2 SA-19 so you never knew exactly how many was on the other team.
I could imagine that SA-19 could do a great ambush by having one activating his radar and then drive to cover and having the other SA-19 sitting well hidden just waiting for the AH-64 to pass over.
u can see the biggest issue with video is--tunguska was not even hidden most of the time.. like last one, why was he moving.. in the open? brain freeze? always hidden behind buildings.. reality is.. gunships can do sead, ..even planes struggle really.. all this toys work if fighting flip-floppers with ak47.. anything more modern and it all comes to a grinding halt..
Best fight you and RC have had in a while.
Damn that was fun lol you need to do more of these
My Daily ‘Valued Viewers’ hit
Well OBVIOUSLY you gotta do TUNGUSTA vs the A-10 now!
rgr
These asymmetric matchups are amazingly fun to watch!
Once the Apache gets the FCR and can lob Hellfire's over hills.. easy win.
A slightly more relevant battle would be a gepard vs ka 52. Would be really cool to watch
try this again, but with the Tunguska riding overwatch over a tank or two that he HAS to protect: If the Apache kills the armor, Tunguska loses even if he survives. Otherwise, the Tunguska could win just by sprinting to cover and sitting in the shade with the radar cold. On the other hand, the armor will serve as a lure for the Apache. If positioned so as to limit firing angles and thus the threat axis, that could set up an ambush mode for the Tunguska. It will make the duel more interesting and tactical than simple hide and seek.
well that is the theory right.. armor advances in the open, tunguska covers it, gunships go it, a-10 goes after AD units, F-15 provide superiority etc.. reality?..try this, jammers everywhere, Airfields being hit constantly with precision guided munitions and make sorties drop by 40-80 %, armor used rarely and almost always in cover-urban to urban movement or through forests, satellites jammed, drones get picked up by tunguskas and shot before they can transmit any data.. basically.. DCS is very good at showing us theory.. reality is a bitch.. nothing works the way they intended.. which is why USA prefers a country under sanctions for 10 or more years before attacking it with everything they have..
@@keepwalking6041 - I guess I didn't make it clear that I was not speaking of attempting to make a realistic simulation of a theater of operations.
My apologies.
My intent was to make this kind of match more entertaining by giving the ADA unit an incentive to engage the air threat.
Otherwise the path to victory is to go cold and hide, and ADA would win nearly 100% of the time - because the air threat would go bingo and either crash or have to exfil with ADA in possession of the field.
I think you're forgetting that the gunner (and pilot) can use the TADS which has FLIR. The SA-19 will stick out like a sore thumb.
Yeah I don't know why they weren't using the Flir
Zeppelin's and Boat Planes VS UH-1H's and AC-130's! For each UH-1H and AC-130 one Boat Plane and Zeppelin in opposition!👍👍
OH58-Ds would provide the eyes for the Apache AH64A/Ds in the 1980's/1990's. The new AH64Es can do it all themselves. AH64D/Es would work in up to 8 aircraft groupings (troops). One would provide the "eyes" while the rest blast away safely hid from adversaries. Cover is your best friend. The idea would be to pop up just enough to get the top of the aircraft above the treetop, masking radar signature. Low light and nighttime is also a helos best friend. Nowadays, they likely would integrate drones into the missions as well, providing cheap "eyes" on targets. Good show!
In the first scenario, I don't know if you would be looking through the scope while driving forward.
Does the tungy not have thermals for the gunner in DCS?
Also, using the FLIR during the day works well to find them in the trees.
Fun! Full human crews would be fun too.
9:28 Huh last time i checked the missile allways first flys towards the sides then to the center allowing you to see through the smoke why did the change that
and second you cann enable mouse aim or joystick i forgot the settings name if you enable it with a button and move your mouse to the left your turret will move smoothly to the left constantly untill you do more to the left or disable the mouse aim realy helps with aiming those missiles
prediction:
if it is guns only, the aa will win, if stand-off weapons allowed, then the heli, since it should have a larger range, so can take its time
Slaving is the act of switching chain gun onto your aiming (eyesight) sight. Whomever sees the target first, Pilot or rear weapons officer then has control of gun. So if an Apache is flying by and his chain gun is pointed at you one of them is probably a cheeky buggar
What do the dots at the edges of the helo’s … reticule? Like +• except the dots can also be top, bottom, left, and/or right.
how about doing a chase the general like you used to do with choppers only ?
A nice Tunguska Tango! ;)
Cap, you should have definitly used your FLIR Sensor to find him. That thing is so useful...
I think the SA-19 should hide in shadows and trees. Provides cover and low visibility against a Non-AI Gunner.
And at night! With FLIR would be fun!
I think I will be worried about RC when he is NOT doing his signature yawning ;D
agree
Remeber that the gunner station has multiple modes to search for targets and a much more powerful "scope" to locate targets. Switching to White hot will make those hot 2S6 engines stand out. The 2S6 also should fire off axis to avoid the targeting being obscured by smoke trail. You are also way to high... we would never get that high when NOE maneuvering to target a serious threat like the 2S6.
I still want to see the wheeled helo taxi race!
15:35 I like that
It’s a great day!
I would love to see GR vs an actual Apache crew if you can find any.
Why are you not using the Apaches thermal sight?
If your Apache has leaves stuck in the undercarriage then you were operating at the right altitude. High-tension powerlines are NOT your friend.
For the Tunguska you can find some building that give you cover from different directions. Pop out and squirt off a missile then MOVE. Back/forwards, around a corner - anything as long as it gives you cover from the helo's line of approach and another shot at him and gets you away from the smoke-trail at your launch point.
wouldn't theThermographic camera spot the ground targets easily for the Apache?
They could switch engines off. Then again they could camp nearby cooking b o r s h t. Ruskies! 😂
@@q-anonandtheruskimirchelon1886 There would still be heat in the engine. Also, I believe that it could pick up the heat from some of the electronics.
@@totalnerd5674 they ought to have heat sinks for the engines and insulation for inside electronics.
Someone: *it's Russian dude..*
Me: 🤔
@@q-anonandtheruskimirchelon1886 Ehh, I don't even know if that would work. Worth a shot, maybe. But since Stingers can get an IR lock on something as inert as an Orlan drone, I am skeptical if you can truly hide something. But you never know, maybe someone's close to a breakthrough...
@@totalnerd5674 residual heat in the engine would be detectable (not sure if this is modeled but I don't think it is) however heat from the electronics would not be.
Great to hear from the DCS guys that the Tornado is coming out next year :-)
ooOOO fun
I couldn't believe how quickly this mission passed by. It felt like 5 or 6 minutes had expired when it ended.
Cap, how about 4-6 human controlled Apache's attacking a column of T72's with a number of Tunguska scattered around?
cool
Keep moving slowly to clear the smoke - and the RADAR is poorly modelled - all those pylons around you would appear as pings and you'd be getting a fair bit of clutter from the trees.
I'm not at all sure, but I don't think that's how SACLOS looks when used. I would have expected a telescopic view (of the target aircraft) in infra-red. I think the smoke from the missiles would not affect the infra-red, and I think the missiles would ride the beam (laser?) to the target, rather than flying off upwards as they seemed to do.
So this is a common misconception; the point of going upwards is so that the smoke doesn't obscure the target. Additionally, they're not beam riding; basically in saclos the ground station radios to the missile to adjust vector, no lasers are involved (at least in any saclos system I am aware of)
Ah -64 was made to fight at 8km with a helio piolt not a jet fighter pilot throught process in a helio.
If you press VID button and select TADS, you can see what the CPG sees. When George says de-slaved, it means that he is no longer slaved or locked on to your LOS.
thxx
Fun matchup, the Tunguska kill was in 3rd person
Need to do 2 human 64 pilot/copilot vs human 19.
agree
Thought this one might go to the Tunguska, and thought what would happen if this was the Tun vs the Apache Longbow. But, then the video went on and the OG Apache took the battle.
Last one was actually a tunguska kill. Heli was over it and completely in gun range. Just a novice operator there, AAA crews always need to be good or else they are always first target.
Evan better than rwr, if you have gps, the tsd can triangulate radar threat positions, on the tsd if you got to show, oyu can turn on the visual markers for ASE threats on map, at which point, you can select that for acquisition getting a marker in the hdu for position
thx
TOR is about as good as the range you were standoff cap . tunguska's are last line of resort. you have S500-S400-S300S Buk Tor Tunguska, then manpad in that order
perhaps be moving slowly when missiling?
so the smoke drags away?
thx
10:40 Cap, you were in the open by a road, stationary, and gave yourself away with a bigass smoke trail.
rgr
Eveb the 80s the situational awareness a Apache had was pretty staggering
Humans firing the Tunguska missile have about 1% the accuracy of the AI. To help them you should add a brisk wind to blow the smoke out of the way.
To be fair, as I understand it the Tunguska's saclos missiles are guided via a computer not by hand by the operators so the AI's accuracy is a lot closer to how it actually functions than the manned CA version.
After the fall of the Soviets I remember reading an article about the ‘gusta from a Russian armor specialist who said something to the effect that NOBODY wanted to ever be assigned to this rolling coffin. First 9min seemed to prove that comment true!
lol yes
LOL, on those Andre The GIant/over-the-Tunguska-shoulder view... as it's rolling down the highway, I get this "toy wind-up car"
vibe... it's the rotating radar dish. OK, I know that's not professional and it severely under-rates the danger of the beast,
but... windup car, nonetheless.
18:55 instead of closer, you can go higher.
No FLIR?
For any mission I make with visually guide sam I always include a light wind (6 kph or so) , this blows the launch smoke away so you can track your missile.
Try out different choppers with no AI pilot to track things in the bushes.
cool, but I think that the Tunguska does not produce this kind of smoke when it fires a missile....or does it? It just makes no sense.....
DCS tunguska isn't very accurate.
Thank you for the clarification. The Tunguska, also known as the 2K22, is a Russian self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon system that combines both guns and missiles for air defense.
To answer your question, it is possible that there could be a plume of smoke when using the Tunguska's infrared (IR) guided missiles, particularly if the missile uses a rocket motor to propel itself towards its target. The rocket motor's exhaust can generate a visible plume of smoke that may be visible to the naked eye. However, the amount and visibility of the smoke would depend on various factors such as the atmospheric conditions, the missile's altitude and speed, the type of rocket motor used, and other factors.
It's worth noting that modern IR guided missiles often use solid-fuel rocket motors, which produce less smoke than liquid-fueled rockets. Additionally, some newer missile designs incorporate "smokeless" rocket motors that are designed to minimize the visible exhaust plume.
The apache's got so much else going for it than what was on that sheet
You should try it again with a longbow apache maybe get your radar to find him
It cracks me up how not a single one of these simulations have any basis in reality and the outcomes are NO WHERE CLOSE to reality 😂
Cap try it with two GR in the AH-64 and one in the Tunguska. That will be test to see.
agree
Do you think the use of Long Bow Radar by Apache would have made it much easier?
What does that do exactly? I've heard that it is some laser designator but am not sure.
@@totalnerd5674 as far as I heard its a radar and can detect targets while hiding behind mountain or trees, as while hovering the top rotor mounted radar can look at the field while the helo is still hidden
@@Vijaya7225 Oooh. I knew it had something to do with that, but its cool that it is an air to ground radar.
Just curious CAP, but what about the SA-19 Tunguska vs. the HIND???
Worth a shot
"Something 8ft long came through the mail and..."
- You order your own personal road sign set, Cap?
Its always such a blessing how Cap deals with losses...
lols
It was a curtain rail. Boring...
@@grimreapers 😁
Using the AI to find the AA isn't fair at all, George is very OP, like you said, you never would've found it, but isn't fair also to don't use the CPG at all, so you need a 3rd player! To be the CPG and use thermal to spot.
Watching you fly the AH hurts my brain
Those thick hud lines are blocking have the view
If possible Cap I'd love the opportunity to fly the A10CII against you/RC in the Tunguska in the same kind of fight
Problem is they are not historical matches. Tuguska 1980's. A-10CII 2010's. 30 years difference.
@@grimreapers would the airframe or weapons be the issue the weapons I'd take would be 4 AGM65-d a gbu-12 and targeting pod
@@grimreapers and the brrrrrt of course
“Shoot! You knobhead” 😂😂😂
Will a bit of wind blow the smoke away?
thx
You need to stay away from open areas. You need him to have to fly over you by hiding
Beat me to it. Ground combat 101, cover/concealment and *avoid roads*
I can tell you don't have much Apache time. I was one of the original units deployed to West Germany in the 80's. I'm not surprised that the apache dominated. We would "attack" our own defensive air cover as routine training. Never alone
DOGFIGHT? :)
Just to confirm the 2S6 has 4x 30mm cannons not 2 don't trust wiki
In reality. Apache has advanced thermal optics that will light up that Tunguska like a Christmas tree.
I believe tunguska has thermal imaging
just look at the piolt using them mk1 eyeball and not the machine he,s in
Two humans need to team up in the Apache...or don't they have the ability to have people in each seat yet?
Even if SA-19 radar can't lock the Ah64, SA-19 operator should be able to see the distance between them, especially when you can visually detect the AH64. So you don't waste your missiles. I also do not understand why you turn you radar on and off frequently. Ah64 has hellfire, which is laser-guided or radar guided. It is not anti radiation missile. I would keep the radar on and drive to open space without mountains.
the helio came with mfds, and sensors i hear.
The Apache would just do a popup and hellfire.... game over..
The AH-64 D Longbow would be the best Apache in this instance.
Just watch the TPOD when your doing those far shots.
And Merge!
This is only in DCS. It is impossible to see a tank that is hidden and anyone who cares about his life would camouflage a tank.
But the Apache never showed its face until late 80s if even then. They built them 5 minutes from my front door.
cool
Hind vs M163 VADS
Am I missing something or are there no more tutorials at all?
I refuse to do them as a protest.
@@grimreapers I've been a big GR fan for years and have always stood up for you on the forums. Your tutorials have helped me (and others) a ton. I understand you're pissed off and ED can be snooty, but the tutorials are for us, and you, not them. And you're still making DCS videos anyway, so maybe come back to tutorials for the GR fans.
As a years long GR viewer, I would ask you to at least consider it. All the best.
I've shot plenty SA-8, SA-19 and even SA-15 before, but it was always AI. At the end of the day it comes down to tactics with a bit of luck. Of course I also got splashed a couple of times. But usually I come out on top.
George is really good at spotting stuff, but really awful at actually hitting stuff, or anything else really.
Lol, I'll bide my time ("one second later") come on where is he. Lol
Apache could fire smoke rounds in front and around Tunguska and sneak up right on top and use chain gun and Bop !bop !bop! bop ! Boom!!!
6:28 You and >>>I
Should have used thermals
Are we keeping you up RC? 😴😂
7:45 range don’t know. Missle: I know where I am by knowing where I’m not by- hold up you say you have no lock??? You sacrifice me
am i being crazy in imagining that the apache gun fires the same round as the harrier?
Yes. They are similar rounds, but definitely not the same. If you loaded a round from the harrier into the apache's gun it would very probably explode and the apache's rounds won't even chamber in the harrier's ADEN.
I thought harrier was 25mm??
@@grimreapers thinking of the UK variant, DEFA gunpods... i'll check.
Guns: 2× 30 mm (1.18 in) ADEN cannon pods under the fuselage, with 130 rounds each