I bought my crimper ages ago. still one of my favourite hand tools and every time puts a smile on my face! suggested to a plumber friend of mine who was suffering with his wiring centres, he had a go at it and ... imagine his face...
Great explanation of the install of the EV charger. Great that the Zappi does not need the TT rods. Worth dropping John Ward a note - if he isn't allready aware.
Shocked that the DNO allowed you to pull the main cut out fuse as it is classed as live working, and guidance from the ENA states you cannot put any other equipment within the meter box, other than that good job for a tricky charger placement! I would recommend the customer getting an isolation switch fitted before you even turn up on site!
Have you tried using a 8mm masonry drill to start with? Often I don't even need hammer action for that, then drill from outside with the correct diameter using hammer if necessary.
This installation looks as if it needs further investigation to determine the existing maximum demand, and the whether, or not the existing cut out is capable of handling the extra load of an EV Charger, before undertaking the work. Consumer equipment is not permitted to be installed in the DNO main intake, enclosure.
This is my understanding too on both points. This installation probably needs a three phase feed to cope regardless of applying diversity! Presumably you would call in the DNO to advise before any work starts?
@@adrianshingler9783 the DNO’s are the only people who can advise on the capacity of the local network to be able to supply additional demand. Paul Meenan of Team 5 Electrical commented in a recent podcast that his local network are refusing upgrades to 100A in order to protect the network.
Thought I was pushing it a bit, touching on 100A for a minute if EV charger (probably going to get one in a few years) + underfloor heating + kitchen appliances all come on max power draw together (sticking to gas hob and shower off combi). No problem with one of these self-limiting chargers! This install though, surely that needs modifying to prevent multiple showers being used at once? I find it hard to believe they've not been blowing the main fuse.
Thanks Jordan,... Ive always been very concerned with the Load taken by EV chargers.... you have freed my mind... thanks . Ive been a spark for 41 years,. and EV is new and Alien to me..... Feeling much more confident now,. Thanks 😄
Youve done an excellent job here. Lots of cable to run and clip as well as drill access holes. Fantastic solution considering the home owner has 2 50amp showers already in the boards. Really enjoyed the specifics and the Zappi walkthrough. The charger to get if anyone can afford an EV new lol. Thumbs up and a comment for the YT algorythms.
This is a really good post. I was a professional Spark 20 yrs ago and moved into Electronics.., the mis-understanding of the older and newer regulations is shocking. We just NOV 2022 had a dual 7kw charger installed in our company lab. We are fed from a single phase 100A supply and already have some fairly heavy loads with thermal chambers, aircon and all the lab kit (we are a small unit). However our loading has high peaks as we have multiple dual compressor thermal chambers that can start randomly. We recently bought 2 EV's as company cars and had a dual 7kw Project EV system installed. 2 EV plugged in and the unit rightly so takes almost 64A and boom it cuts out, reset and cuts out and takes the whole building out. Cut the story short the contractor has used one of the ways from our Thermal chamber consumer unit and only added a type A 32A breaker and a 10mm SWA? WTF?? The chambers running and 2 EV kicked in.. poof the main fuse says nope... We complained and they have said ok we will change to a 64A type B? Er no?? Where is the consideration for load balancing or margin on the breakers, irrespective if the station is protected? With 30A load on the chambers that's almost 94A on one CU... No CT fitted so there is no feedback for load balancing or monitoring either.. No recommendation for a 3 phase system even though we have 3 phase into the building!! My home install is TT and I put in independent 4 way isolated PME fault detection CU in plus surge and voltage monitoring to the EV station (After lots of research I chose Zappi 2.1) , plus added upstream 100mA RCD with time delay to protect the new CU metal enclosures (added tail glands etc) and the other circuits, mine is only 7kw but still had the main fuse uprated to 100A and upgraded the Earth rods and cabling running ZE/ZS etc and all other RCD and loop tests to ensure the main fuse can go IF a fault occurs. Ran all tests with Metrel XC3152 plus EV safety tests and multifunction kit to ensure the place was safe and the station was functioning before commission. I am out of the industry for 20 yrs but it worries me that so called pro installs do not evaluate the installs correctly! My fear is that the install purely relies on the trust in the manufacturers inclusion of the protective circuits and thus the installer just does the basics or worse!
This was as super video Jordan. I thin john ward should see this see too out of interest as he gave an earth rod great explanation but ver elaborate installation. ( no criticism intended john if you read this as I am one of your subscribers). Anyway, I was surprised you were allowed to use the meter box as far as I know we are not allowed to use them as it is their property and they could ask you to remove your device.unless permission was given? This has been very useful information as the confusion over EV charging points is terrible. So thank you again for informing us. Keep up the great videos. By the way, it takes a lot of guts making these videos because there are alwas those jobs worth who love to criticize. Thank you again.
What do you think of the "pod point"? I just had a client asking to get a supply in for the installation by "pod point" and that's what they are asking for: To be supplied by at least a 6mm 3 core armoured or twin and earth cable; The main fuseboard must have a 40A supply which is either protected by i) a Type A RCD , ii) is non RCD protected; AND The garage/outbuilding fuseboard must have a spare 32A MCB for us to connect to which is either protected by a i) a Type A RCD , ii) is non RCD protected; The above will be sufficient provided there are no other high fix loads in the garage (i.e. fridge, freezers etc.) These upgrades would need to be carried out by a private electrician prior to the installation. Just to mention that I did explain that it would require all of the above plus possibly an electrode rod before she sent out the info made by "pod point" but I am going to have a look at what exactly she has. Thanks again for the great videos! We all learn something new and its great to have your videos helping us out.
@@TheManLab 'Best practice' is to sleeve the black as PE and grey as neutral to avoid confusion with the pre-harmonisation colours in case someone gets confused. So long as there's sleeving over the cores and it's the same both ends then it shouldn't be an issue
drill a pilot hole and them drill from the inside and the outside. that will stop blasting out the brick. Best to do most of the depth of drilling from the side where the position is important
I anjoyed the video and looking at my impending first EV installetion, I think that the Zappi ticks a lot of the boxes as far as potential problems I might have, Just one point, out local supply authority qould absolutely loose their fruit if we installed anything in their meter box! we have not even started with smart meters yet but I have been told the songle phase ones we have are quite a bit bigger than a standard check meter, the three phase will not even fit in a meter box! So fun and games coming up here I have no doubt.
I'm interested to note that there are installations falling outside the voltage ranges of 207v to 253v. This is exactly where it would be far better to give each house a three phase supply instead. The overvoltage issue is because another phase (i.e. house) is pulling a high current and shifting the star point. The undervoltage is because this is the home pulling the high current. Three phase in the home and the loads could be balanced, helping avoid these issues.
As I see it the PEN fault detection, installed with single phase EV chargers, does not have a true earth reference, other than the person touching the the vehicle. The combined earth, with the neutral, in a TNC-S, or pseudo TN-S, (which many are because of underground CNE repairs to old PILC cable), is useless as a true earth reference because of a broken underground joint. The only other earth reference comes via bonded metalised services, which in the event of a PEN fault will be passing several amps of diverted neutral current. Hence the need to always put a current clamp on the main earth before commencing any work. PEN faults on the network are more common than I realised after watching Team 5 Electrical’s podcasts on Diverted Neutral Current.
@Adam Boquist no advantage. Because of a lack of maintenance (thanks to privatisation) on the installed underground distribution network, which is fed by 50+ year old paper insulated lead sheathed 4 core armoured cable, which provided a TN-S supply. Repairs are made with 3 core armoured cable, used now to universally supply a TNC-S system. The downside is that if there is a break/fault in the neutral earth connection ( a so called PEN fault, then all the internal metalwork in an installation becomes live, and RCD’s no longer provide protection. Detection of the PEN fault is a requirement of the wiring regulations for EV chargers but there is often no true earth reference other than the person touching the vehicle, to cause the PEN fault detection to operate.
@@stevejagger8602 it will always depend where the neutral breaks. I've had my area lose the neutral at the transformer. Phase 3 went to 0v and the other two were 400v. But not one shock from a tap or shower because there was no path back to the transformer via an earth anywhere (we only use TN-C-S here). Lots of stuff blew up of course. To me the ideal is a three phase house supply with earth rod at the meter on a TN-C-S , no earth from the supply side - only earth the armouring at the connection to the main supply and never to the house. Then bond neutral to earth and earth rod after the meter. Now add an over/undervoltage monitor BEFORE the bond so that if voltage is out of range by too much, the house is disconnected completely from the supply (no phases, no neutral, no earth from the supply side) but still has a pseudo TT style earth rod for safety in case of lightning or whatever unforeseen circumstances occur (a generator on backfeed maybe). Why three phase? Less voltage drop plus less current on the neutral means less likely to have a failure. Plus if it does fail, the current will make its way back via other phases and blow up appliances before killing someone if the voltage monitor is faulty and doesn't react.
Love the video ****** just one thing The installation looks to be TT with an earth cable being taken down the suppliers ducting (suppliers have been know to install there own earth electrode on their network) did you check continuity between the suppliers neutral and the main earth ? If it is a TT system you may like to provide RCD protection to your new sub-main Also the 16mm T & E cable looped off the live side of the RCD on the main consumer unit Please comment below if looks this way to you
I thought the same - there doesn’t look to be an earth coming from the cutout, only the separate earth cable so I’d be inclined to think TT also. Ze test would give a good indication of this.
i wouldve brought the swa in the bottom of board and kept the board more to left (neater and easier than a bend on swa) and would give plenty room for henleys.
** Important ** The Harvi CT sensor can only measure up to 65A. As you have set the grid limit at 95A, the Harvi will not transmit the correct data to the Zappi in order to protect the main fuse from fouling. If the CT was hardwired into the Zappi, you can set it up to 100A (95A advised).
It's worth noting that the ct clamps will only function correctly up to 100amps per phase, So for a commercial install this can be problematic. I have spoke to zappi technical and they are working on a solution. Very informative video 👍
Nice to see a professional working .the electrician my landlord sent was scary .he had a cold and kept sniffing and he arced his screwdriver in the fuse box showing me something and blew the main fuse and said when he left good job he spotted some fault and price has gone over with main fuse can't be helped .and he kept swearing and saying hardest job he had ever done when he was only putting up a meter to tell landlord of killowatts used.
@@artisanelectrics indeed he works for a seriously big outfit as well in Brentwood in Essex .or he had there t-shirt on .I don't think he was fully qualified.i.was discussing car charging will be the future and he said he was trying to do latest electrical certificate to be able to do it.
Pod point also have thrse safety features. Pod Point have type A 6 amp rcd protection on board. Pod point also has pme Pod point has load limiting as well. So you need to look at other before saying zapping is the only unit
Hi Jordan, I have a tip and a question. Tip: Whenever you see an earthing system and you're not sure what it is such as your case here.. Isolate the incoming neutral and earth, measure the earth loop impedance of both, if the earth is say 0.23ohms and the neutral is say 0.10 ohms then it's likely to be a TNS system. If the readings are similar, then it's quite likely to be a TNCS system. If you have a tester like a Metrel that cuts off dead tests if it detects a voltage between conductors so you don't accidentally blow your testers then you could check voltage between external neutral and earth and carry out a continuity reading which would give you a good indication of what it is. Question: Under the new amendment 722.411.4.1 NOTE 6, how do you interprete that or what does that mean to you?
I’ve just got that ferrule crimp set off amazon for £13.00 with ferrules, used it today and works a treat. I’m a big believer in “you get what you pay for” but sometimes you pay way to much for a named brand.
I would respectfully have not undertaken the alteration or addition work given the existing connections, configurations and especially loading. A potential danger notification with supply upgrade to possible three phase would be better. Using smart tech with no due diligence on if it fails safe. And being sponsored totally muddies the waters. This work whilst demonstrating the load considerations doesn’t negate the fact it is current in a poor state and additions shouldn’t be made without further works. Your better when not sponsored mate.
Great video again mate!. How much is the Zappi V2 to buy? Also, for your non Zappi installs did you know you can purchase a PEN fault Detection unit about the size of a 4 way CU for approx. £120 from CEF Matt:e device check it out! Saves installation of earth rods and hitting any services 👍
Very useful; many thanks for sharing your professional skill and experience. Considering the long and hazardous way the cable runs through, between the source of electricity supply and the Zappi charging station, an RCD is definitely needed at the new, secondary consumer unit; but I’m wondering whether it should be of Type B, as currently suggested by the relevant regulation. Also, note that 'myenergi' (Zappi's conceptor and developer) expects, for the installation, an “MCB 40A, 2-pole curve B” (in case of single-phase) at the source of supply. Not to mention a surge protective device, which has also come along with the current regulation. All of which are much more expensive, but most likely safer.
I'm quite late to this one, great video Jordan. Cracking install, can't see why anyone would install anything else (cost aside, but even then is it worth the hassle for a few quid?!).
We don't use a separate earth for Australian car charger installs. We do mandate TNC-S for potential control and mandate an RCD for the charger. We earth the slab floor re-enforcing steel, metal building frame, and internal gas pipes, but nothing else as our supplies are typically all PEX these days. Do you guys allow other earthing systems?
Having watched this and the one about the car charger for the Tesla. I am glad I'm in Canada with our nice old '50s technology circuit breaker panels. With a solid 200 A at 240V service even in my 1200 sq ft bungalow. Plenty spare capacity for anything I want.
The bigger problem that the UK has is the network distribution. The 100 or 80A can be dealt with but as more EV's appear local transformers won't cope. Things are going to get interesting!
We’re scheduled to install 3 Zappi chargers for installations with solar PV, (subject to Covid19 restrictions 😩), which the Zappi caters for. For this one, I’m interested to know if, when you opened the fuse carrier, was it 100A? And did you discover through your Ze if it was PME, or TNS? Another good lengthy cable run and excellent, given you’d done the desk top site visit! 😃👍
I use the grid limit on the Zappi to get around the 60A load limit without having to get around the applications through the ENA found some DNOS take forever to respond if they ever do!
Great informative video Jordan! Zappi sure have knocked Pod-point....Anderson and the likes out of the park with this charger!! As far as them fuseboards in the house.....wow them rcds hanging off them circuits sure are subjected to some heavy loading even considering the 30% diversity factor on some of the circuits they protect. Keep up the good work Jordan really enjoy your content!
Erm, sorry to put a negative comment but the meter box is for DNO/Supplier equipment only. Because you have fitted stuff in there, there is now no room for smart metering. You have also interfered with the cut out seal then re-sealed with your own which is illegal. Also, if that was PME, the main earth should be coming off the neutral block on the cut out. It seams that the earth in that set up is using the same duct as the supply cable (not supposed to happen), I would guess it’s going to an earth rod. It also appears that there is no earth supplied by the DNO which is common in rural areas. 🤔
Hi, I am wondering if you had to go back to move your EV CU when the property had their meter upgraded to a smart meter? You didn't leave enough room to the right for it. I would have put the CU to the far left and ran the SWA into the bottom, next to the tails (if one was allowed to install user equipment in the meter box, of course!) ;-)
Earth rod is needed if the current rods are not up to code or if you are trying to direct a lightning strike to ground. With the car low to the buildings, this provides nothing. Whole house surge protection is now US requirement. How about UK?
Lots of published Gas beaches, but don’t see so many HSE stats on specific Electric issues. I was wondering recently how many PME issues there are and associated injuries, so a balance of risk v cost can be applied proportionately. Good HSE stats and a surprising number of incidents!
I'm intrigued by the load management system built into the ZAPI charger. I can see how this works ... but ... If this is monitoring the TOTAL installation current ( at the meter tail ) by means of a CT - and - varying the current drawn by the ZAPI such that the TOTAL load current of the installation ( ZAPI load + remaining installation load) is below 95 Amps in this case ( that is what you set it to) - Then : Surely - bearing in mind the max existing load that you identified earlier being some 170 amps -then I don't see how this can work - because the existing system itself can already exceed 95 Amps - (and indeed exceed 100A - the suppliers fuse rating) - which is NOT and CANNOT be controlled by the ZAPI. - Or put another way -it seems that the existing system is already at its limit in terms of max load and diversity -- and therefore - the only time the ZAPI current control will have any effect is when the existing installation draws less than 95A - But... The existing installation "itself" can still draw in excess of 95A -so what happens then ? ( when the ZAPI "sees" >/= 95A - but its "own" load is ramped down to zero since the existing installation has "used up" the 95A limit ? )
how about using a diamond core bit, to make the holes in the brickwork, and easing off the pressure as you are getting near to the other side, so that it will make a neat exit, vibration free. and a lot quieter. then it may look like it grew there, as the sparkies used to say 50 years ago. " Marcrist " make good quality products.
I purchased a cheap crimping tool, mostly due to having tools kept by those borrowing them!! Used to go for the expensive ones but why spend money for others benefit? I'm assuming as I couldn't see clearly that you used an external SWA gland outside. The Zappi looks really good with plenty of space to work in it.
forgive me for sounding silly ( i was a sparky for 55 years 30 of which i was self employed, did i see at some stage that you said there is ( on the zappi) a current sensing transformer, if so and you fit the current transformer to the meter tails, how do you make the connection to the zappi unit, DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXTRA CORE IN YOUR SWA CABLE TO TAKE THE CURRENT TRANSFORMER VOLTAGE TO THE ZAPPI FROM THE INCOMING TALES??.... THANKS
The teeth on the earth nuts are for plastic enclosures and the flat side for metal enclosures, only found out about it myself when I actually read the myself
Ok Thanks Jordan I find the The QUBEV. Good Budget Charger for someone Buying a Secondhand £5 to 10k Car and that will be a Big Market . Had a Two hour ride on the New Harleydavidson Livewire
Great video again, thanks Jordan - I’ve always been worried about earth electrodes and potentially hammering them into some kind of underground service myself!! Great to know there is a solution. Also, with the maximum current, using time/current characteristics curve, you could go a bit above 100 amps and it won’t blow the fuse couldn’t you?
Hi Just watching this video and what was the earthing on the system? as looked to be tt as no earth connection on the main earthing terminal of the cut out but an earth wire leaving the meter box Love a zappi and fitted many ourselves. Keep up the good work :@)
How do you guys deal with all that load and only a 100A main? I would hate that, can't use all the stuff you have in your home, without a fear of blowing the fuse and being in the dark until the power company comes to replace it. We have dual 200A panels, and we have natural gas as well. 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Really interesting Jordan , i'm just starting to get my head around it all and am doing my C&G course in a few weeks . I will definitely be looking at the Zappi now . I also noticed you took your main tails into the bottom of the main switch , whereas i would of struggled my ar*e off getting them into the top. Whats the rules/guidelines on this either manufacturers or regs ?
Thanks for the great video, it was put in an easy to understand format and I really appreciated it. However I'm a bit confused ... you say that the Zappi has a Type A RCD built in (done using their software by the looks of it), but isn't the reason why Type B RCDs are being suggested is because the Type A RCDs can be blinded by DC leakage currents known to occur in EVs? A small DC leakage current can change the trip point of a Type A RCD to operate out of its specified trip thresholds. So, I'm not sure why a Type B RCD is not being recommended in this case?
Great video thank you, but could you explain just how the zappi load controller senses the total load, is that black thing in the meter box the sensor, and if so how does it communicate with the zappi charging unit please.
23:52 my DNO does not allow me to install any of my equipment in their cabinet. I can see why, not much space left for them now. Does the DNO for this region permit this?
@@artisanelectrics It is because of the single phase onboard chargers in the cars. These are 7.4kW or 6.6kW mostly. So it's not possible to charge any faster unless you have a 3-phase supply and 3-phase charger. (like the Model3).
we had a ev pod fitted by a government funded thing foc - dont plan on using a ev vehicle anytime soon tho -i did wonder tho its tapped into our main consumer unit and then goes to fused spur then to a wifi box thing then to the pod- whats this wifi box all about ? is it to gather information on usage times of day its used etc?
Hi. Love your vids and workmanship. Its refreshing to see people still want to do a decent job. But as for the earth rod, i understand that it was to protect incase you lost the PEN conductor but i also thought it was there to ground any DC currents and segregate them from the main earthing system should the car or charger go into fault? We have found an RCBO with a small hole burnt into it because they used the 13A plug in charger to charge the electric van when it had a fault on it?. Granted the socket was fed with a 30mA AC RCD so the DC fault currents saturated the coil and burnt it out. This was when electric vehicles had just been released and the type B rcd never existed
Yes you're right DC currents can be a problem, the Zappi has built in Type A RCD protection to cope with any DC fault currents arising from the vehicle.
Have you seen the connection units from Matt:e? I think they would allow for installation of ev charge points and would eliminate the need for an earth rod
Looking at having a zappi installed but have a complicated installation site. We have an annex with its own PME supply which our charger supply will run across. Our supply is TT so as this is less than 2 metres away our installer says it is against the regs. Our DNO would “upgrade” our supply to PME which would get rid of the risk but would you advise this? Thanks
Hi Do you need to be a registered vehicle charging installer to fit a zappi charger? Do you need any specific tester to test them (standard multifunction tester o.k ?) Cheers
Hi! You need to have done the EV Charging course and you should have a special EV Charging Point Test unit to make sure the charger functions correctly.
Hi, you have made Good Video, can you make one Video on EO Mini Pro V 2, this new cute and amazing charger I believe to not need Earth Rod. We would love to know more about it from You. 👍😊😎
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The DNO can ask you to remove your equipment from the meter box if they get pissy. They can pull the fuse until you do the job properly.
I take it its ok fitting something in the meter box....years ago you weren't aloud to touch the meter/tails etc :-)
I had a 32a commando socket fitted in my garage with a regular 32a RCD - works fine, no issues and cheap! £90 all in
I bought my crimper ages ago. still one of my favourite hand tools and every time puts a smile on my face! suggested to a plumber friend of mine who was suffering with his wiring centres, he had a go at it and ... imagine his face...
Great explanation of the install of the EV charger. Great that the Zappi does not need the TT rods. Worth dropping John Ward a note - if he isn't allready aware.
Shocked that the DNO allowed you to pull the main cut out fuse as it is classed as live working, and guidance from the ENA states you cannot put any other equipment within the meter box, other than that good job for a tricky charger placement! I would recommend the customer getting an isolation switch fitted before you even turn up on site!
Have you tried using a 8mm masonry drill to start with? Often I don't even need hammer action for that, then drill from outside with the correct diameter using hammer if necessary.
This installation looks as if it needs further investigation to determine the existing maximum demand, and the whether, or not the existing cut out is capable of handling the extra load of an EV Charger, before undertaking the work.
Consumer equipment is not permitted to be installed in the DNO main intake, enclosure.
This is my understanding too on both points. This installation probably needs a three phase feed to cope regardless of applying diversity! Presumably you would call in the DNO to advise before any work starts?
@@adrianshingler9783 the DNO’s are the only people who can advise on the capacity of the local network to be able to supply additional demand. Paul Meenan of Team 5 Electrical commented in a recent podcast that his local network are refusing upgrades to 100A in order to protect the network.
Thought I was pushing it a bit, touching on 100A for a minute if EV charger (probably going to get one in a few years) + underfloor heating + kitchen appliances all come on max power draw together (sticking to gas hob and shower off combi). No problem with one of these self-limiting chargers!
This install though, surely that needs modifying to prevent multiple showers being used at once? I find it hard to believe they've not been blowing the main fuse.
Excellent video Jordon. I'm definitely going to check my energy. Well done mate always enjoyable watching your videos
Thanks!
Thanks Jordan,...
Ive always been very concerned with the Load taken by EV chargers.... you have freed my mind... thanks .
Ive been a spark for 41 years,. and EV is new and Alien to me.....
Feeling much more confident now,. Thanks 😄
Youve done an excellent job here. Lots of cable to run and clip as well as drill access holes.
Fantastic solution considering the home owner has 2 50amp showers already in the boards.
Really enjoyed the specifics and the Zappi walkthrough. The charger to get if anyone can afford an EV new lol.
Thumbs up and a comment for the YT algorythms.
This is a really good post. I was a professional Spark 20 yrs ago and moved into Electronics.., the mis-understanding of the older and newer regulations is shocking. We just NOV 2022 had a dual 7kw charger installed in our company lab. We are fed from a single phase 100A supply and already have some fairly heavy loads with thermal chambers, aircon and all the lab kit (we are a small unit). However our loading has high peaks as we have multiple dual compressor thermal chambers that can start randomly. We recently bought 2 EV's as company cars and had a dual 7kw Project EV system installed.
2 EV plugged in and the unit rightly so takes almost 64A and boom it cuts out, reset and cuts out and takes the whole building out. Cut the story short the contractor has used one of the ways from our Thermal chamber consumer unit and only added a type A 32A breaker and a 10mm SWA? WTF?? The chambers running and 2 EV kicked in.. poof the main fuse says nope...
We complained and they have said ok we will change to a 64A type B? Er no?? Where is the consideration for load balancing or margin on the breakers, irrespective if the station is protected? With 30A load on the chambers that's almost 94A on one CU... No CT fitted so there is no feedback for load balancing or monitoring either.. No recommendation for a 3 phase system even though we have 3 phase into the building!!
My home install is TT and I put in independent 4 way isolated PME fault detection CU in plus surge and voltage monitoring to the EV station (After lots of research I chose Zappi 2.1) , plus added upstream 100mA RCD with time delay to protect the new CU metal enclosures (added tail glands etc) and the other circuits, mine is only 7kw but still had the main fuse uprated to 100A and upgraded the Earth rods and cabling running ZE/ZS etc and all other RCD and loop tests to ensure the main fuse can go IF a fault occurs. Ran all tests with Metrel XC3152 plus EV safety tests and multifunction kit to ensure the place was safe and the station was functioning before commission.
I am out of the industry for 20 yrs but it worries me that so called pro installs do not evaluate the installs correctly! My fear is that the install purely relies on the trust in the manufacturers inclusion of the protective circuits and thus the installer just does the basics or worse!
Are you serious?
yeah 100%
This was as super video Jordan. I thin john ward should see this see too out of interest as he gave an earth rod great explanation but ver elaborate installation. ( no criticism intended john if you read this as I am one of your subscribers).
Anyway, I was surprised you were allowed to use the meter box as far as I know we are not allowed to use them as it is their property and they could ask you to remove your device.unless permission was given?
This has been very useful information as the confusion over EV charging points is terrible. So thank you again for informing us.
Keep up the great videos.
By the way, it takes a lot of guts making these videos because there are alwas those jobs worth who love to criticize. Thank you again.
What do you think of the "pod point"? I just had a client asking to get a supply in for the installation by "pod point" and that's what they are asking for:
To be supplied by at least a 6mm 3 core armoured or twin and earth cable;
The main fuseboard must have a 40A supply which is either protected by i) a Type A RCD , ii) is non RCD protected; AND
The garage/outbuilding fuseboard must have a spare 32A MCB for us to connect to which is either protected by a i) a Type A RCD , ii) is non RCD protected;
The above will be sufficient provided there are no other high fix loads in the garage (i.e. fridge, freezers etc.)
These upgrades would need to be carried out by a private electrician prior to the installation.
Just to mention that I did explain that it would require all of the above plus possibly an electrode rod before she sent out the info made by "pod point" but I am going to have a look at what exactly she has.
Thanks again for the great videos! We all learn something new and its great to have your videos helping us out.
Hi. When buying SWA ask for “street light colours” and you will get brown, blue and green/yellow. Nice video!
Tom Pauwels Not sure on that one. I’ve seen him do it few times so that’s why I suggested street light colours.
@@TheManLab 'Best practice' is to sleeve the black as PE and grey as neutral to avoid confusion with the pre-harmonisation colours in case someone gets confused. So long as there's sleeving over the cores and it's the same both ends then it shouldn't be an issue
drill a pilot hole and them drill from the inside and the outside. that will stop blasting out the brick.
Best to do most of the depth of drilling from the side where the position is important
I think the bonding conductor labelled "LINK" goes to the second CU.
Nice
Brilliant info, and very timely. Thanks. The regs over this have confused me ever since January.
Its very flip floppy at mo.
That’s so true
I anjoyed the video and looking at my impending first EV installetion, I think that the Zappi ticks a lot of the boxes as far as potential problems I might have,
Just one point, out local supply authority qould absolutely loose their fruit if we installed anything in their meter box! we have not even started with smart meters yet but I have been told the songle phase ones we have are quite a bit bigger than a standard check meter, the three phase will not even fit in a meter box! So fun and games coming up here I have no doubt.
Great video! The MyEnergi Zappi looks good. How do you install the remote ('load'?) sensor at your new consumer on the meter board?
I'm interested to note that there are installations falling outside the voltage ranges of 207v to 253v.
This is exactly where it would be far better to give each house a three phase supply instead.
The overvoltage issue is because another phase (i.e. house) is pulling a high current and shifting the star point.
The undervoltage is because this is the home pulling the high current.
Three phase in the home and the loads could be balanced, helping avoid these issues.
I dont really get why you dont have three phase? I'm from Sweden and we all have three phase in to our house.
Is there an upside with just one phase?
@@adamboquist3759 Cheaper and because they're so rare no one knows they could have something better.
As I see it the PEN fault detection, installed with single phase EV chargers, does not have a true earth reference, other than the person touching the the vehicle. The combined earth, with the neutral, in a TNC-S, or pseudo TN-S, (which many are because of underground CNE repairs to old PILC cable), is useless as a true earth reference because of a broken underground joint.
The only other earth reference comes via bonded metalised services, which in the event of a PEN fault will be passing several amps of diverted neutral current. Hence the need to always put a current clamp on the main earth before commencing any work.
PEN faults on the network are more common than I realised after watching Team 5 Electrical’s podcasts on Diverted Neutral Current.
@Adam Boquist no advantage. Because of a lack of maintenance (thanks to privatisation) on the installed underground distribution network, which is fed by 50+ year old paper insulated lead sheathed 4 core armoured cable, which provided a TN-S supply. Repairs are made with 3 core armoured cable, used now to universally supply a TNC-S system. The downside is that if there is a break/fault in the neutral earth connection ( a so called PEN fault, then all the internal metalwork in an installation becomes live, and RCD’s no longer provide protection.
Detection of the PEN fault is a requirement of the wiring regulations for EV chargers but there is often no true earth reference other than the person touching the vehicle, to cause the PEN fault detection to operate.
@@stevejagger8602 it will always depend where the neutral breaks.
I've had my area lose the neutral at the transformer.
Phase 3 went to 0v and the other two were 400v.
But not one shock from a tap or shower because there was no path back to the transformer via an earth anywhere (we only use TN-C-S here).
Lots of stuff blew up of course.
To me the ideal is a three phase house supply with earth rod at the meter on a TN-C-S , no earth from the supply side - only earth the armouring at the connection to the main supply and never to the house. Then bond neutral to earth and earth rod after the meter.
Now add an over/undervoltage monitor BEFORE the bond so that if voltage is out of range by too much, the house is disconnected completely from the supply (no phases, no neutral, no earth from the supply side) but still has a pseudo TT style earth rod for safety in case of lightning or whatever unforeseen circumstances occur (a generator on backfeed maybe).
Why three phase? Less voltage drop plus less current on the neutral means less likely to have a failure. Plus if it does fail, the current will make its way back via other phases and blow up appliances before killing someone if the voltage monitor is faulty and doesn't react.
Love the video ****** just one thing
The installation looks to be TT with an earth cable being taken down the suppliers ducting
(suppliers have been know to install there own earth electrode on their network) did you check continuity between the suppliers neutral and the main earth ? If it is a TT system you may like to provide RCD protection to your new sub-main
Also the 16mm T & E cable looped off the live side of the RCD on the main consumer unit
Please comment below if looks this way to you
I thought the same - there doesn’t look to be an earth coming from the cutout, only the separate earth cable so I’d be inclined to think TT also. Ze test would give a good indication of this.
They need to make a covert charger, they are massively oversized for what’s in them.
Maybe because of heat transfer of the internal parts. Also because the boxes are ip rated they don’t breathe as well
That load limmiter is a wonderful breakthrough... brilliant stuff
I've just applied to be a Zappi approved installer. Makes installing an EV charger so much easier.
Do you get the Zappi V2 at trade price once your are an approved installer?
You can get it through certain wholesalers for a good price
Congrats Gavin!
Just got my letter of approval from myenergi. Sent it off to OLEV.
Well done!
i wouldve brought the swa in the bottom of board and kept the board more to left (neater and easier than a bend on swa) and would give plenty room for henleys.
Can you confirm how you are able to pull the main fuse, I was always led to believe that strictly not allowed without permission.
Pablo from the DNO came and sorted it for him.
He does work for CJR Electrical too.
** Important **
The Harvi CT sensor can only measure up to 65A. As you have set the grid limit at 95A, the Harvi will not transmit the correct data to the Zappi in order to protect the main fuse from fouling.
If the CT was hardwired into the Zappi, you can set it up to 100A (95A advised).
Where did you get the 95A grid limit value from? I've looked at the technical data for the Harvi product and couldn't find it.
Hi Jordon
Any chance of doing a video about how you do the paperwork side of things ? Would be a good walk through 🤩👌
It's worth noting that the ct clamps will only function correctly up to 100amps per phase, So for a commercial install this can be problematic. I have spoke to zappi technical and they are working on a solution. Very informative video 👍
Thanks for the info!
Nice to see a professional working .the electrician my landlord sent was scary .he had a cold and kept sniffing and he arced his screwdriver in the fuse box showing me something and blew the main fuse and said when he left good job he spotted some fault and price has gone over with main fuse can't be helped .and he kept swearing and saying hardest job he had ever done when he was only putting up a meter to tell landlord of killowatts used.
Wow 😳 😂
@@artisanelectrics indeed he works for a seriously big outfit as well in Brentwood in Essex .or he had there t-shirt on .I don't think he was fully qualified.i.was discussing car charging will be the future and he said he was trying to do latest electrical certificate to be able to do it.
Pod point also have thrse safety features. Pod Point have type A 6 amp rcd protection on board.
Pod point also has pme
Pod point has load limiting as well. So you need to look at other before saying zapping is the only unit
Hi Jordan, I have a tip and a question.
Tip: Whenever you see an earthing system and you're not sure what it is such as your case here.. Isolate the incoming neutral and earth, measure the earth loop impedance of both, if the earth is say 0.23ohms and the neutral is say 0.10 ohms then it's likely to be a TNS system. If the readings are similar, then it's quite likely to be a TNCS system. If you have a tester like a Metrel that cuts off dead tests if it detects a voltage between conductors so you don't accidentally blow your testers then you could check voltage between external neutral and earth and carry out a continuity reading which would give you a good indication of what it is.
Question: Under the new amendment 722.411.4.1 NOTE 6, how do you interprete that or what does that mean to you?
I’ve just got that ferrule crimp set off amazon for £13.00 with ferrules, used it today and works a treat. I’m a big believer in “you get what you pay for” but sometimes you pay way to much for a named brand.
True
I can see the DUO having a hissy fit with using their cut out box. Good video.
😂
Pablo from the DNO came out... Great guy very helpful and speedy.
Top video👍🏼 I would have informed the client about the use of showers within that property. Maybe a priority switch.
Great point!
Great video and great product! Keep the content flowing!
Thanks a lot
I would respectfully have not undertaken the alteration or addition work given the existing connections, configurations and especially loading. A potential danger notification with supply upgrade to possible three phase would be better. Using smart tech with no due diligence on if it fails safe. And being sponsored totally muddies the waters. This work whilst demonstrating the load considerations doesn’t negate the fact it is current in a poor state and additions shouldn’t be made without further works. Your better when not sponsored mate.
Ok thanks for the feedback
There are 4 holes in the lower half of the unit, but only 2 screws with rubber washers there; how are the other holes sealed to maintain IP rating?
I think your video are great I really enjoy them all the work you do is so good and neat I would use you for any work I need in the future
The zapping is installed in Germany with 22kW or 11kW. So with 64 amp or 32 amp fuse on three phases 400/230 V.
Fantastic video , very informative. The Zappi is the one.
Great video again mate!. How much is the Zappi V2 to buy?
Also, for your non Zappi installs did you know you can purchase a PEN fault Detection unit about the size of a 4 way CU for approx. £120 from CEF Matt:e device check it out! Saves installation of earth rods and hitting any services 👍
Looks like a very useful and reasonably priced bit of kit.
Very useful; many thanks for sharing your professional skill and experience. Considering the long and hazardous way the cable runs through, between the source of electricity supply and the Zappi charging station, an RCD is definitely needed at the new, secondary consumer unit; but I’m wondering whether it should be of Type B, as currently suggested by the relevant regulation. Also, note that 'myenergi' (Zappi's conceptor and developer) expects, for the installation, an “MCB 40A, 2-pole curve B” (in case of single-phase) at the source of supply. Not to mention a surge protective device, which has also come along with the current regulation. All of which are much more expensive, but most likely safer.
I'm quite late to this one, great video Jordan. Cracking install, can't see why anyone would install anything else (cost aside, but even then is it worth the hassle for a few quid?!).
That zappi looks a great bit of kit !
I think you need some bigger sleeving on them swa cores mate 🤣
Looked like heat shrink that wasn’t shrunk
We don't use a separate earth for Australian car charger installs. We do mandate TNC-S for potential control and mandate an RCD for the charger. We earth the slab floor re-enforcing steel, metal building frame, and internal gas pipes, but nothing else as our supplies are typically all PEX these days. Do you guys allow other earthing systems?
Having watched this and the one about the car charger for the Tesla. I am glad I'm in Canada with our nice old '50s technology circuit breaker panels. With a solid 200 A at 240V service even in my 1200 sq ft bungalow. Plenty spare capacity for anything I want.
The bigger problem that the UK has is the network distribution. The 100 or 80A can be dealt with but as more EV's appear local transformers won't cope. Things are going to get interesting!
We’re scheduled to install 3 Zappi chargers for installations with solar PV, (subject to Covid19 restrictions 😩), which the Zappi caters for. For this one, I’m interested to know if, when you opened the fuse carrier, was it 100A? And did you discover through your Ze if it was PME, or TNS? Another good lengthy cable run and excellent, given you’d done the desk top site visit! 😃👍
And he swore the whole time.nice to see a professional approach
Looks like a great product and simplifies installation. Was due to go to the IET seminar but this pandemic meant it had to be cancelled.
Ah yeah that’s a shame! It is a great product
I really hope myenergy is going to sell these units also to Europe and even to Switzerland. It is a great product.
They have a branch in Germany I believe
I use the grid limit on the Zappi to get around the 60A load limit without having to get around the applications through the ENA found some DNOS take forever to respond if they ever do!
Great informative video Jordan! Zappi sure have knocked Pod-point....Anderson and the likes out of the park with this charger!! As far as them fuseboards in the house.....wow them rcds hanging off them circuits sure are subjected to some heavy loading even considering the 30% diversity factor on some of the circuits they protect. Keep up the good work Jordan really enjoy your content!
Thanks a lot!
Erm, sorry to put a negative comment but the meter box is for DNO/Supplier equipment only. Because you have fitted stuff in there, there is now no room for smart metering. You have also interfered with the cut out seal then re-sealed with your own which is illegal. Also, if that was PME, the main earth should be coming off the neutral block on the cut out. It seams that the earth in that set up is using the same duct as the supply cable (not supposed to happen), I would guess it’s going to an earth rod. It also appears that there is no earth supplied by the DNO which is common in rural areas. 🤔
This was not a rural job, it was in the city, the earth cable is part of a TNS system, its not TT as the readings would have been high.
Hi, I am wondering if you had to go back to move your EV CU when the property had their meter upgraded to a smart meter? You didn't leave enough room to the right for it. I would have put the CU to the far left and ran the SWA into the bottom, next to the tails (if one was allowed to install user equipment in the meter box, of course!) ;-)
Jordan you informed us with a great product, Thanks !!
Earth rod is needed if the current rods are not up to code or if you are trying to direct a lightning strike to ground. With the car low to the buildings, this provides nothing. Whole house surge protection is now US requirement. How about UK?
Zappi is a bit like the RCD invention no more supplementary bonding for additional protection - fantastic kit
Yeah they are great!
Like it token fixing screws I fit so many things where it’s throw the screws and plugs provided away and use new ones
Lots of published Gas beaches, but don’t see so many HSE stats on specific Electric issues. I was wondering recently how many PME issues there are and associated injuries, so a balance of risk v cost can be applied proportionately. Good HSE stats and a surprising number of incidents!
Thanks!
I'm intrigued by the load management system built into the ZAPI charger. I can see how this works ... but ...
If this is monitoring the TOTAL installation current ( at the meter tail ) by means of a CT - and - varying the current drawn by the ZAPI such that the TOTAL load current of the installation ( ZAPI load + remaining installation load) is below 95 Amps in this case ( that is what you set it to) - Then :
Surely - bearing in mind the max existing load that you identified earlier being some 170 amps -then I don't see how this can work - because the existing system itself can already exceed 95 Amps - (and indeed exceed 100A - the suppliers fuse rating) - which is NOT and CANNOT be controlled by the ZAPI. -
Or put another way -it seems that the existing system is already at its limit in terms of max load and diversity -- and therefore - the only time the ZAPI current control will have any effect is when the existing installation draws less than 95A -
But...
The existing installation "itself" can still draw in excess of 95A -so what happens then ? ( when the ZAPI "sees" >/= 95A - but its "own" load is ramped down to zero since the existing installation has "used up" the 95A limit ? )
how about using a diamond core bit, to make the holes in the brickwork, and easing off the pressure as you are getting near to the other side, so that it will make a neat exit, vibration free. and a lot quieter. then it may look like it grew there, as the sparkies used to say 50 years ago. " Marcrist " make good quality products.
Nice
I purchased a cheap crimping tool, mostly due to having tools kept by those borrowing them!! Used to go for the expensive ones but why spend money for others benefit?
I'm assuming as I couldn't see clearly that you used an external SWA gland outside.
The Zappi looks really good with plenty of space to work in it.
Thanks!
forgive me for sounding silly ( i was a sparky for 55 years 30 of which i was self employed, did i see at some stage that you said there is ( on the zappi) a current sensing transformer, if so and you fit the current transformer to the meter tails, how do you make the connection to the zappi unit, DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXTRA CORE IN YOUR SWA CABLE TO TAKE THE CURRENT TRANSFORMER VOLTAGE TO THE ZAPPI FROM THE INCOMING TALES??.... THANKS
The teeth on the earth nuts are for plastic enclosures and the flat side for metal enclosures, only found out about it myself when I actually read the myself
I was going to say the same. The teeth are there to take off the paint work of the enclosure and them turn it around to get a sound connection.
Surly the teeth side is for the metal enclosure so it gets a better electrical connection?
What sort of voltage drop at full charging rate at the charging point do you get with that length of run?
Not happy myself of fitting a consumer unit in the electrical suppliers box. But informative, thanks for doing the video.
Yeah I agree it shouldn’t be done that way now looking back I never install things in meter boxes any more
Ok Thanks Jordan I find the The QUBEV. Good Budget Charger for someone Buying a Secondhand £5 to 10k Car and that will be a Big Market . Had a Two hour ride on the New Harleydavidson Livewire
Nice!
Another awsome video.👍🏻 Why did you not dig down the cable? Maybe it’s just My OCD, But i hate cables on the outside of the House. Stay safe.🇩🇰
Thanks! Yeah it would have been nice to dig but too expensive and disruptive
Great video again, thanks Jordan - I’ve always been worried about earth electrodes and potentially hammering them into some kind of underground service myself!! Great to know there is a solution. Also, with the maximum current, using time/current characteristics curve, you could go a bit above 100 amps and it won’t blow the fuse couldn’t you?
Yeah it’s such a great device saves all that worry and hassle of an earth electrode
How did he get the cables into the meter blocks LIVE?! Because everyone knows your not aloud to cut the meter seals and pull the main fuse?
thank you and well done
Brilliant
Thanks!
Hi
Just watching this video and what was the earthing on the system? as looked to be tt as no earth connection on the main earthing terminal of the cut out but an earth wire leaving the meter box
Love a zappi and fitted many ourselves. Keep up the good work :@)
How do you guys deal with all that load and only a 100A main? I would hate that, can't use all the stuff you have in your home, without a fear of blowing the fuse and being in the dark until the power company comes to replace it. We have dual 200A panels, and we have natural gas as well. 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Surly if there is a PEN fault, then if your EV doesn't electrocute you, then your outdoor tap or indoor plumbing will. So why all the fuss?
Excellent video,. Extremely informative...
Thanks
Really interesting Jordan , i'm just starting to get my head around it all and am doing my C&G course in a few weeks . I will definitely be looking at the Zappi now . I also noticed you took your main tails into the bottom of the main switch , whereas i would of struggled my ar*e off getting them into the top. Whats the rules/guidelines on this either manufacturers or regs ?
Thanks for the great video, it was put in an easy to understand format and I really appreciated it. However I'm a bit confused ... you say that the Zappi has a Type A RCD built in (done using their software by the looks of it), but isn't the reason why Type B RCDs are being suggested is because the Type A RCDs can be blinded by DC leakage currents known to occur in EVs? A small DC leakage current can change the trip point of a Type A RCD to operate out of its specified trip thresholds. So, I'm not sure why a Type B RCD is not being recommended in this case?
It has Type A RCD with 6mA DC protection, hence no external RCD needed unless the cable needs additional protection.
@@artisanelectrics Thanks and appreciated the reply.
Great video thank you, but could you explain just how the zappi load controller senses the total load, is that black thing in the meter box the sensor, and if so how does it communicate with the zappi charging unit please.
Great help, thank you. What size armoured cable did you use ?
23:52 my DNO does not allow me to install any of my equipment in their cabinet. I can see why, not much space left for them now. Does the DNO for this region permit this?
Why are almost all single phase charges 7Kw when you can get 10 or 11Kw showers? Great content as usual 👍
Good question! I actually don’t know why.
@@artisanelectrics It is because of the single phase onboard chargers in the cars. These are 7.4kW or 6.6kW mostly. So it's not possible to charge any faster unless you have a 3-phase supply and 3-phase charger. (like the Model3).
Hi Jordan,wouldn't it be good idea to put SPD in that little consumer unit?What are your thoughts about that?
One of your best; thank you
Thanks! It’s been a while since I made this one!
Is the other shower on a non priority board ,that would make sense
Sponsored? They sent you a free one didn't they?! 😀
why are you putting a consumer unit in an outside meter box and don't you need MOCOPA accreditation to pull the cut-out fuse ?
we had a ev pod fitted by a government funded thing foc - dont plan on using a ev vehicle anytime soon tho -i did wonder tho its tapped into our main consumer unit and then goes to fused spur then to a wifi box thing then to the pod- whats this wifi box all about ? is it to gather information on usage times of day its used etc?
Jordan, great video. Bit late to this one but just wondering if you considered using Hi Tuff cable rather than SWA?
Hi. Love your vids and workmanship. Its refreshing to see people still want to do a decent job. But as for the earth rod, i understand that it was to protect incase you lost the PEN conductor but i also thought it was there to ground any DC currents and segregate them from the main earthing system should the car or charger go into fault? We have found an RCBO with a small hole burnt into it because they used the 13A plug in charger to charge the electric van when it had a fault on it?. Granted the socket was fed with a 30mA AC RCD so the DC fault currents saturated the coil and burnt it out. This was when electric vehicles had just been released and the type B rcd never existed
Yes you're right DC currents can be a problem, the Zappi has built in Type A RCD protection to cope with any DC fault currents arising from the vehicle.
Ment to say read the instructions myself, good video
Yeah thanks I learn something new there!
are there no restrictions on how close you you place equipment to the meter ?
Not that I know of!
Have you seen the connection units from Matt:e? I think they would allow for installation of ev charge points and would eliminate the need for an earth rod
Yeah I have but they are rubbish to be honest.
Looking at having a zappi installed but have a complicated installation site. We have an annex with its own PME supply which our charger supply will run across. Our supply is TT so as this is less than 2 metres away our installer says it is against the regs. Our DNO would “upgrade” our supply to PME which would get rid of the risk but would you advise this? Thanks
Hi
Do you need to be a registered vehicle charging installer to fit a zappi charger?
Do you need any specific tester to test them (standard multifunction tester o.k ?)
Cheers
Hi! You need to have done the EV Charging course and you should have a special EV Charging Point Test unit to make sure the charger functions correctly.
In Sweden we use 3phase
Hi, you have made Good Video, can you make one Video on EO Mini Pro V 2, this new cute and amazing charger I believe to not need Earth Rod. We would love to know more about it from You. 👍😊😎