I appreciate the variety of counter-arguments and refutations of the statements that I made within this video. As much as it is terrifying to have people disagree with your opinions and what you say, I hope that regardless you are able to find something useful or interesting within the 30 minutes and that it doesn't turn out to be a waste of your time.
disagreed with everything, enjoyed every second of your video. keep up the good work and try to focus on how many comments you'll get of people duking it out here. it'll be mayhem and you'll be rewarded with sweet algorithm blessings! way better than not having people comment under your vids!
It's a great video. You're absolutely right that they made mistakes, and I appreciate that you pointed out that they're improving. Bob's starts as something like "just another one of these American family shows" but has grown into something genuinely moving and progressive. Bob's bisexuality as a married, straight-presnting man, however fleetingly discussed, is really important to me, for example. I believe it distinguishes itself from its peers by constantly refusing to give in to cynicism, being messy, and getting better.
Lily, I don't think anyone can, in good faith, say that your video is a waste of time. They may disagree, but you do present decent arguments, especially as it relates to the reality of sex work. I never watched most of the cartoons you talk about, I just have a vague meme notion of them from pop culture. So I find your videos super interesting, especially relating to trans characters. I also feel that by the end of the video, you make it pretty clear that the show overall had a progressive trend during its run, and that the creators listened to the feedback and improved. You were pretty harsh in your criticism, but most times, you backed it up with clips, and I can see your points. If anything, looking at the comments, I think that the disconnect is that you focused a lot on this one episode, whereas other people seemed more interested at a series-long take and the way it also explored other characters' queerness. Could be a fun idea for a second video... Don't be discouraged by the criticism, though I know that's easier said than done... Sending you good vibes 💙💙
I think you gave a very evenhanded criticism and from what I’ve read most of the counter-arguments come from character developments later in the show retconning or explaining away what might be perceived as anti-trans attitudes. The fact is, however, when this episode came out, those retcons didn’t exist, those characters hadn’t been developed, and you as a new viewer are more likely to have a clear perspective on what was actually the original intention of the jokes in the episode than someone like me who has watched the entire series multiple times. Bob’s Burgers is truly a wonderful show, and it can be painful to go back and look at it’s problematic beginnings, but I’m hopeful that other fans can be receptive to the criticisms made in this video while understanding that they do not irreparably tarnish the show as a whole.
I disagreed with some of it but it was still a fantastic video!! Ultimately I think the main point of contention comes from carrying the baggage of other examples of bad representation into bobs burgers and not taking bobs burgers on its own terms. (And also starting at this episode instead of watching some beforehand and getting a feel for the show). So many of the jokes in bobs burgers that are more meant to be about the silliness of Bob being out of his comfort zone read as jokes that would be more on the other people in a show like family guy So many bobs burgers episodes hinge on the premise of Bob being in a situation you'd never expect him in and derive the humor from that rather than the other people in that situation so you kind of have to already come in with an idea of Bob as a character to really get that
@@madmarx7543I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thinks that! If Bob ever became a widower (or otherwise single but I can’t imagine that marriage failing), Marshmallow would _easily_ be in the running for becoming the stepmother of the Belcher kids 😁
“All I know about Marshmallow is that she comes and goes as she pleases. She answers to no one. And she's truly free.” He says with admiration/adoration.
At first I felt weird by how the trans characters acted weird before realizing that EVERYONE was weird in the show and they weren’t demonized for it from what I’ve seen. They were just the show’s brand of ‘normal’
Definitely. When this show wants you to dislike a character they make it clear that that character is just the worst. But the trans people in this show are just vibing. Not perfect representation, but flawed in a very harmless way.
And the show has heavy lgbtq influence behind the scenes a lot of artists and writers are a part of the community I think it’s more representation then mocking
I think of a later episode when Linda thinks she can see the future and she says "Tall Dark and Handsome" and Marshmallow comes in. Bob says "Marshmallow isn't handsome she's.. beautiful" And I dunno I always thought that was really cute.
@@FabbrizioPlaysi wouldnt exactly say harmless, because there are some harmful stereotypes that are part of her character, but i get your point. they are characteristics that happen to be stereotypes, not characteristics that are written in to play into stereotypes.
I urge you to watch more of the show, and pay special attention to Gene. The kid is constantly experimenting with and exploring gender, and he's met with nothing but support from his family. It's a rare and beautiful thing to behold and it redeems the show's gender representation really well.
I always love the way gene is supported by his family! I also love the episode when he experiences sensory overload so Bob removes him from the scenario and when gene wants to go back, bob makes ear plugs for him to enjoy the show. It's always really sweet
Regarding voice acting, Bob’s Burgers is also kind of anomalous because many cis women and girls in the show are voiced by men (Tina, Linda, Ms. Labonz).
I don’t see the issue in Bob’s burgers casting choice BUT, given the fact that trans women with deep voices historically has been used in media to make fun of trans women is why the voice acting is somewhat of a bigger deal. Personally I like marshmallow voice now but her new voice actress sounds nice as well
I've seen a lot of shows where men played women and girls (usually for comedic purposes), but I hadn't seen a show where women play adult men until the adult swim show Gemusetto Machu Picchu (which is its own can of worms), but it was a nice subversion.
@Jack-px8lfI mean, it’s a big possibility that was the motivation for her character at the time. I don’t think they’ll ever admit it outright but, I believe they did mention their regret about the episode and their portrayal. Her introduction to the viewers was as a transvestite prostitute. They made sure she fit almost every stereotype to a T. As time went on we got little more pieces of her character (like her going to college and being 23) but that definitely wasn’t the case in her introduction. I’m not sure the motivation of them keeping her given her small role in that episode. I love her voice as well but I can see how it comes off disingenuous rather than typical BB’s where someone can have a wacky voice and it not be that big of a deal. I forget Linda is voiced by a man because her inflection and tbh I don’t think that’s supposed to be the joke either. With marshmallow it feels as if her having a deep voice is supposed to be in your face and funny because “real women shouldn’t sound like that” type joke. At least at first.
As a black queer person the thing I liked most about that episode is that nobody owes you passability, nobody needs to tell you what they identify as, and nobody needs to be “respectable” for you to respect their pronouns. Queer representation doesn’t need a label to identify the specific type cis het people need to understand you may never understand and even though you may be confused or off-put it doesn’t me you need to be an asshole or question me about it. There are a lot on non cis sex workers its a thing. A lot of queer people partake in party and drug culture. The idea that despite how fringe these women are Bob still respects and cares for them is overall the positive message we need.
Agreed! I get frustrated when people insist that characters be given explicit identity markers, because I don't even have those for myself, and it feels really invalidating when people act like a character can't be a "real queer" because they don't have a label.
@@Tink00 I think people forget that a lot of queer culture isn’t “wholesome” because of a lot of suituations being queer has put us in. Personally I was kicked out at 15 and I did SW to survive and I turned to dr*gs to cope I called myself a h**ker as a joke to deal with my reality. So for me it’s disheartening and irritating when people who never had that life want to act like people like me didn’t exist so they can be respected. People like my and marshmallow and the others are a direct effect of homophobia and transphobia. How we live our lives and how we interact with the world is our choice and other people and their queerness have no say in that. You may be my sister and I will fight for you but if you’re gonna judge me or Marshmallows you better not wear anything with Martha P Johnson. Our rights were fought and died for by non passing women of color s3xworkers that identified as transvestites. People need to remember that and keep it cute
The thing I love about Bob's Burger's is that *everybody* is weird and awkward in some form or another, but the show itself doesn't mock or sneer at its characters for that. The comedy comes from the characters navigating situations in unexpected or sympathetically-awkward ways or making sincere-but-sometimes-misguided-or-impulsive decisions that end up spiraling out of control. Bob himself is sometimes flummoxed or stressed by strange situations or awkward social encounters, but he's never mean, hateful, haughty, or contemptuous, and the rest of the family just tends to roll with the punches.
Another remarkable thing about the show that specifically sets it apart from other family comedies is the basic family dynamic. Bob and Linda aren't just married, they're really good friends to each other, and the conflicts of an episode don't change that. I could be wrong though, I don't watch that much tv.
@@nefariousyawnit’s been a while since I watched Bob’s Burgers but I remember Bob and Linda having a loving relationship, with like none of those exhausting “man I hate my wife!” Jokes common in these type of shows. They’re cute together
It's not just that they don't demonize, many of the characters show admiration/respect for characters that fall outside of norms. They don't do it in a patronizing way either.
As a trans man, I love Marshmallow. She may not be a good representation of trans people, trans women in particular, but its her personality that really gets me. She's proud of herself, she's unashamed to be herself, and she carries herself with a pride that I wish I could carry. She may "weird" or a stereotype to people, but she's a character I hold close for my representation.
i think she’s good representation cause trans people don’t have to be good people or successful in a traditional sense or blend in with straight/het society to be good trans characters. there are trans women who don’t “pass” well, there are trans women who do sex work to get by, there are trans women that are extroverted and proudly speak on trans/queer experiences. it’s hard to show this to a straight/cis audience because they won’t understand and might dislike it or mock it but hiding part of the reality of queer experiences from them only harms the community
Apologies if I missed a comment that already addressed this, but something I think missing is that the three sex workers, Marbles, Cha-Cha and Glitter, are separate characters and don't all necessarily have the same representation. Marbles pretty clearly reads as trans with the "town full of small minded doctors" line, but to me Cha-Cha (who gets the line about being a married man) could be a transvestite without that necessarily saying anything about Marbles beyond the fact that one of her friends and co-workers is a transvestite.
this was something I took away from it as well- I get that it's through the lens of a cis writer who may not realize the depth of these three characters wholly despite depicting them, but I liked that these three SWers had perceivably different relationships to their presentations. Since it's not the focus, the show doesn't go in depth in having the ladies describe how they see themselves, and if you read the jokes at face value as many cis people would, it will seem worse. But I appreciate that Cha-Cha seems to be somewhere in more of a crossdressing sphere (or maybe a questioning sphere), whereas Marbles and Glitter seem more like trans women. It also makes sense that you get Cha-Cha teasing the other character about her mustache, because unfortunately even within our own queer communities, there is a lot of toxic "passing" mentality (especially from people who are more on the periphery or whose focus is more on dress and less on a gender identity). Overall, it was a topic that was handled as delicately as ignorant cis writers could: there's a lot of faulty presentation, but the core overall is wholesome (like the majority of Bob's Burgers as a show).
In a recent tweet from creator Loren Bouchard, he actually apologized for the early handling of Marshmallow when asked if she was trans or a drag queen. He said he always intended for her to be trans, but they didn't have the information they needed to handle that sensitively at the time and that was his mistake. He hopes to feature the recast Marshmallow more in future episodes since, as he put it, "the Belchers are lucky to be in her orbit". I guess what I'm getting at is the show has mishandled some trans representation, but unlike other shows you've covered, the people behind it are willing to listen and learn in order to make the show more representative and inclusive without resorting to stereotypes again. In the past they have recast characters so their VAs have matched their race, like Tina's teacher, a rarely seen character but a black woman who was originally played by a white woman until they recast her. Where Simpsons seems to put its head in the sand regarding the existence of trans people and Family Guy just adds them to the pile of people they can punch down at, Bob's Burgers feels like its sincerely trying to be more progressive and acknowledges that its failed in that in the past. I feel like others have addressed things like Gene (I have always loved how casually gender non-conforming he is myself) or how many of the cis women in the show are played by men, including Linda the mother and Tina the oldest daughter. EDIT: Also, you put an emphasis on how the show is made by "white dudes". Aside from the show getting its unusual speech patterns from being partially retroscripted (meaning the characters adlib a bit and its animated around that later), the creator of the show and most of the cast are Jewish. I really felt like early on they wanted the Belchers to be a Jewish family but felt they couldn't (perhaps because the earliest pitches had it as a dark comedy where the family are killing and serving people and Jewish people don't need that on their reputation). So they know what it's like to be a part of a marginalized group, even if they are cishet or white.
I always loved marshmellow as trans representation, it was obvious that she wasn't a mockery or a joke that people could poke fun at. She was marshmellow, someone Bob found beautiful (and even admitted to finding her beautiful). Her and Bob had a beautiful friendship -- and though she was portrayed as promiscuous that wasn't a joke. It was just.. who she was. A beautiful promiscuous lady. I don't see how people could find offense to her, if she was a AFAB women that was promiscuous nobody would care, but as soon as its covering trans representation everyone cares. Which is good, granted, but if we're ever going to have inclusivity we need to understand some transgender people are naturally very sexual.. such as some cis people are, and some straight people are (lord knows the swinger communities) and that's OK! Sexuality is beautiful and to shun transgender representation for being too sexual does more harm then good in my eyes. Truth be told bigots will find backup claims to their bigotry in any form of representation. You could have a buttoned down, secretive non AFAB and they would still believe that the way they're portrayed backs up their claims. That being said I'd really wish they'd show her more. Honestly, having her as a babysitter to the belcher kids would be amazing. I guess my biggest (and only issue) with marshmellow is what she wears alot of the time around the kids. It makes me pretty uncomfortable. I'd have the same problem if it was an AFAB but.. maybe that's just me. Nudity in all variations, even bathing suit nudity, makes me uncomfortable.
@@esterbun9356 Loren Bouchard has promised more Marshmallow, and the recast of her to be played as a trans woman is a good sign of an intent to follow through. Maybe with a redesign that keeps her fabulous and sexual but in something less revealing/fetishy. I do agree she'd make a great babysitter to the Belcher kids, especially since Louise actually likes her and she seems to be the major reason they have problems with babysitters (although Tina, being 13, always gets upset when she isn't allowed to watch Gene and Louise herself/it's implied she needs a babysitter). As for promiscuous female characters, there's Gretchen, Linda's friend, who is openly promiscuous and unashamed about it. Even Linda seems to find her attitude refreshing even if she is happily married and monogamous. (And like many of the women on the show, Gretchen is a cis woman played by a man.) Another thing is Bob is always happy to see her when he does. Even if he is in the middle of being angry, when he sees her he is always like "oh hey Marshmallow" like it's a pleasant surprise. He does seem to consider her a friend on some level. (For example, when the kids had their silly underground casino, Bob was angry and chewing them out, then noticed she was one of the adults who randomly showed up and was like "oh hey Marshmallow" like it was pleasant seeing her there, before continuing to berate the kids.) A good storyline from last season was the episode where Louise admits she thinks there's something wrong with her for not being like other girls and liking the same things they do. Tina actually handled it really well (the kids and their relationship is really the heart of the show), but if Louise ever had those feelings again, it might actually help her to talk to a woman who literally worked to define herself as a woman in this world. Also, I just want to see Marshmallow and Gene together more. With Gene always being so casually GNC/genderfluid I feel like Marshmallow would see this weird little kid and think "yeah, he's okay". And Gene would probably get along with her based on him seeming to just like fabulous people.
It did always seem that way to me they seem slightly racially ambiguous and she has that northeastern accent yk I always kinda figured that just never thought abt it
so much of bobs burgers humor comes from its wholesomeness. i think the joke in the cab is you expect bob to be transphobic but it ✨subverts our expectations✨ by him being surprisingly fine with it
I strongly agree with this. I have to admit that my gears grind a bit when BB is compared with shows like FG and AD. Those shows (maybe AD less so in later seasons) have such a negative core and rely a lot on punching down. And since that style of show dominated adult animated sitcoms for so long, BB was and maybe remains transgressive by being relentlessly positive. And it does so without putting on rose-colored glasses or ignoring the difficulties of life, as Simpsons did by completely refusing to treat the family’s financial woes with any real weight. (The essay hand-waves away the point that the show is centered in the restaurant instead of the living room, but I think the persistence of their financial status exemplified by the fact that they’re *always working* is critical to understanding the show.) So, while I do think BB has evolved and would treat a lot of this subject matter differently today, I don’t see the “crack” line as a cliche trope about drug-addicted sex workers. Maybe it is *is* that, as a fair criticism of weaker early-season writing. However, I see it mostly as a way to underline that Bob does not judge-even past the point of comfort for the conventional “open minded” person. And the show’s refusal to either flinch (by making the sex workers into perfect angels) or punch down (by giving us a FG-style cutaway after the drug reference) makes this one of my favorite shows to this day.
You’re absolutely correct. I could see a conservative thinking the joke was something more sinister, but that’s just not the case. This video’s analysis as a whole is completely misguided as to the ideology and humor of the show.
So I think there is a lot missing here in terms of American drag/queer culture understanding. I had a brief time as a drag king before deciding it wasn't for me (variety of pandemic + drama + local scene related reasons), and the whole convo regarding mustache is like. So real. I've heard that and 5 O'clock shadow jokes multiple times amongst the queens, many of which were trans in some way (whether trans women or genderfluid or nonbinary). Now, we can certainly talk about the wider culture policing femininity and how this even impacts queer spaces, but like. It's real. It's a real convo tho the response is extreme (...in tone at least. I've heard multiple threats about stabbing eyeballs out with heels or nails, it's just said *playfully*). And the confusion is true to real life cis people, but the heartwarming thing is Bob is OPEN. Of course Bob doesn't immediately know, the ambiguity is there. Like... not to say it doesn't have flaws, but I love how it does a great job of making it feel real? Like yes in the drag room there are trans and cis women and nonbinary and trans women in drag who will joke about being men and etc. Bob gets into the "club" because he is helpful and open to these women, and so they don't censor themselves around him like they would around other cis people. The vibe of the episode is "we're all people, and thus all weird" (because Bob's family and Fischoder and etc are all just as, if not more weird), not "look at these weirdos". I feel like a lot of trans people who aren't active parts of the "grittier" counter culture elements of queerness see this and... and I say this gently and with love, but they do a kinda respectability politics at it. Like I had to actually stop the video when you got to the sex workers part, because I KNOW many drag artists and trans people who are sex workers. It is *very much* a part of the community. And I loved Bob's Burgers ending because it had trans queer sex workers come to a little girl's birthday party and shown absolutely, 100% NOT to be predators. Instead, they were the life of the party and a big help to Bob. It's sad that this is revolutionary, but I am happy these are repeated friends in Bob's space that are shown to be *good people*, if weird like everyone else. They may be trans sex workers, but they aren't victims, they aren't predators, and they aren't pitiable. They are Bob's fun friends who get to have power over their client via Bob as a way for Bob to have a "win" this episode.
We know that a lot of trans people are sex workers as she's explained it's the only way many can make money. It's the fact that's how MOST trans people on TV are portrayed as such. We can have other jobs y'know?
yeah i think the show is very much as a whole geared more towards "everyone is both weird and deserving of acceptance," the episodes surrounding marginalized groups like the sex workers or the carnival workers are very much written to be realistic in terms of how people talk about and engage with those groups while also having the message surround why you should be accepting of and respectful towards them
I don't think Lily's issue is about respectability politics. I think the problem isn't that these trans characters are sex workers, but that the only trans characters in the show are sex workers. If there was more representation that showed that trans womanhood wasn't synonymous with sex work, then this episode would just be "more trans characters, and these ones happen to be sex workers" It's not that it's not ok for trans people to do sex work, but that for so long the only representation of trans women was as sex workers and this show seems to be doubling down on that. That representation pushes trans women to the edge of society and further sexualises trans bodies, because "trans women are only good for sex work"
Honestly, as someone with only a passing familiarity with the show but a decent amount of context regarding both the culture it's referencing and more generally how especially older transfolk banter with each other, it felt a bit stereotypical, sure, but also not particularly unrealistic and very, well, *sincere* in a way that this sort of comedy rarely is. And that latter part is apparently the show's whole energy in a nutshell. I do agree that Lily has good points about how trans characters have historically been portrayed with respect to sex work and how some of the casting choices were less than ideal (with the caveat that men voicing women seems to just be a thing even with a lot of cis characters in the show), but I do think there is a surprising amount of nuance here, particularly for the kind of show it is.
I think this is really spot on. Very right about how different queer communities would react to this ep--Hell, different AGES too. I remember being so moved & so EXCITED by Bob's Burgers because of this episode! Like hey, maybe they don't 'get it', but they're trying. Esp at the time, this was incredibly positive compared to others. Idk, I just didn't really dig the tone of this video.
imo a lot of the jokes where you were feeling "what is the joke here?" are actually jokes at the expense of us, the audience. people watching this episode in 2011 would have had a certain expectation for how characters and situations like these would be presented in a sitcom, and the show is setting up and then subverting those expectations on purpose. like, the bit where it zooms in on the sex workers' adams apples and stubble complete with scare chords, that's there to make the audience go "oh, okay, I know this set-up, now Bob's going to realize they're trans women and freak out or get weird about it", and then he _doesn't._ the show intentionally sets up for a cheap transphobic joke and then does a hard swerve at the punchline, essentially looking at the audience and going "why, what were _you_ expecting?" the joke about the client is the same thing - obvious setup for a transphobic "gag" where he reacts with disgust, but instead he just shrugs and goes "sure, why not" - it's a joke about what the audience expected to happen _not_ happening. it also doesn't surprise me that it would fall flat to someone watching it in 2023. these days when you see a trans person on TV you don't immediately feel the inevitable countdown to the transphobic joke at their expense, now we reserve our judgment until the punchline is delivered because we expect shows to be better about these things now than they were 12 years ago (i mean we're often disappointed, but we still _expect_ better). so when the expectation isn't the same, then a joke about subverting that expectation won't land.
This episode really exemplifies the early growing pains of Bob’s Burgers as a show. I think that from the start it was a fundamentally good natured show, and that is what has always set it apart from others of it’s kind who were/are mostly just cynical and mean spirited. And Bob’s Burgers definitely grew into that distinction more and more, but season one especially was really bogged down by a lot of conventions of it’s time, I can’t tell you what the reasons for that are other than guessing that it probably took them a bit to figure out what the show actually was. And that created a lot of that mess. It’s a conflict between what the show wanted to be and what the show had to grow out of. And of course the trans rep is a good example of that, but also the ending. Bob from a later season would absolutely never think to blackmail someone with the knowledge that they’re into ABDL, because later Bob’s Burgers is a series that celebrates outsiders and freaks and Bob is one of the most striking examples of that throughout the show because he’s nearly always written as the role of the straight-man, but it never turns to him being judgmental about others. I mean, it’s clearly here already, the way he interacts with the trans women and even gets along with them really well after a little bit. I’m really glad the writers grew past this. For one, it clearly helped the show become what it wanted to be, but also I wouldn’t wanna live in a world without Marshmallow.
In a way, the show teaches the viewer something as well- that owning up to, learning from, and improving from your mistakes in the past. The showrunners learn it and so do the viewers. Sometimes taking a risk is better than ignoring something completely. But it takes tact and understanding to learn from them.
It is also interesting to note that (as the show progressed) Bob getting a petty victory on Jimmy would be often be framed as a bad thing that he’d have to walk back.
I felt that the part of Gene with the computer was less a joke on men being uncomfortable with transwoman, and more a joke about a 10 year old going to a porn site and seeing more than what he was expecting
i can agree with that being an interpretation of the joke, ultimately I was worried about the sort of take-away that cis audiences in 2011 would have around trans people and trans bodies and how that related to the positioning of those comments
@JayTheProduct So is Louise, but she is shown to be attracted to a boy. Gene's reaction to any sort of romantic/sexual discussion/action involving him, including when he had a girlfriend, has been disinterest at best, revulsion at worst.
I didn't take Gene being traumatised by the computer stuff as a transphobic joke specifically, it's just that he's like 11 and 11 year olds think all sex stuff is icky, I don't think the trans part was meant to be integral to the joke If he was a little older and very clearly interested in sexual stuff like Tina, I would have agreed with you
Honestly his reaction reminded me a lot of when Tina tells him she always pictures everyone naked and he becomes immediately uncomfortable. So that was definitely (knowing the character) that's how I interpreted it as well.
One of Bob's favorite people is Marshmallow and it's kinda nice... And it has nothing to do with her being trans. He says, "she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free" and "she's not handsome, she's beautiful". He always says hi to her even in weird awkward situations. Maybe she's a stereotype. But I don't care if an irl trans woman is a stereotype either. Maybe she's also a really cool character who is loved by all the other main characters and treated as a ln individual person and a friend. Nobody makes a big deal out of it. Shes just there and it's comforting.
I honestly read them as sex workers who are doing a job, not necessarily conveying their true selves. I wouldn’t presume to know how a person identifies based on their performance of sex work.
I think the distinction between the character who states they are a married man and the other character wanting surgery is to depict the fluidity of gender affirmation. The first character might be a transvestite, while the second might identify as trans.
With the voice acting thing, that may actually not be transphobic. Bob’s wife is also voiced by a man, and so is Tina. The show tends to use male voice actors for most the women.
That whole men-narrating-women's-parts thing got old fast. But I guess they couldn't change it later. It just became so tiresome and unfunny after a while. Like the kid on Malcolm in the Middle who had asthma who always talked haltingly and slow. Or like Rick Sanchez belching and drunk all the time, thank god they moved on from that tiresome gag.
The idea of an episode about Tina growing up and “becoming a woman” was a perfect space to introduce trans women and have them help Tina accept and love herself.
I'm pretty sure that the 3 characters in the episode are in drag (I'm pretty sure they later on accept male pronouns, and I think in a later season we see one out of drag), but Marshmellow I think is Trans. could be wrong, but I think that's the lay of the land here. Also, makes sense with the general uncomfortable feeling of "who are we supposed to be laughing at here?" I think bob's Burgers in general avoids making a single character the butt of a joke, instead making the circumstance itself the joke (E.g. the joke here is that Bob has become a pimp for these sex workers, at least that's what I found funny, because he's a very average dad kinda guy, the contrast with pimp and bob is funny).
Bob’s Burgers is one of my favorite shows but it doesn’t have as many laugh out loud moments as a lot of other comedies. To me, I think the joke is that you would expect the blue collar patriarch to be weirded out by trans sex work but he just rolls with it. The joke is that it’s wholesome, and that Bob is more comfortable with the outcasts of society than the “normal” people.
I always got that Bobs Burgers just lets trans people be people and welcomed them into all spaces. Aside from the unfortunate terminology in the 2011 episode I think they do a pretty good job at trans representation.
Bobs burgers is very different from simpsons American dad and family guy. That would be like comparing loony toons and friends. It’s a totally different vibe.
I'd honestly remove the Simpsons from that list. The only similarity it has to the other 2 is it's an animated sitcom about a family their tones & execution however are night & day the Family Guy/Simpsons crossover even leaned heavily into this by having most of the jokes show the contrast between the 2 shows (Bart makes a harmless prank call/Stewie makes a violent death threat)
I believe the largest issue is you're taking a single episode. While that is typically your schtick, focusing in on one episode, your episode featuring the Simpsons and your Family Guy episode both gave consideration to other appearances. Marshmallow is a recurring character, often a bit character, but she's respected and it's regularly commented that she's beautiful. This is a safety show for me so it hits a bit closer to home as it were, but I definitely feel that this episode warranted a bit of a look at Marshmallow's other appearances, however minimal and "bit part" they are. There is the ability to push for better while also acknowledging that the show has already done that, given this was out of its first season out of thirteen (and a movie!)
I think one of the reasons I like Bob’s Burgers is that it’s not a “mean” show like most of the other cartoons you mentioned like Family Guy, Simpsons, and the rest. The Belcher family is a lot less dysfunctional- they are shown to care about each other and help each other out and etc… They’re also in general very accepting and open-minded. I also find them more relatable than other cartoon families.
ok so regarding the "banned from the computer" joke, i feel like it wasnt intended as a jab at trans people but rather just like "this kid whos like 10 saw corn and is disgusted cause,, its corn", but i agree that it reads differently
@@TemariNaraannaschatz I'm not sure why this comment stsrts with "no it's not". correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you just rephrasing what the first person said?
There's so much cute queer stuff happening in Bob's Burgers, obviously they were very gauche at the start, but I do love every expression of sexuality that made its way into this show. If you have time you should check it out! The first 4 seasons are the best imo. It was good to hear your perspective on it, thanks for the video Lily!
Not to defend the episode, but I think the joke (for me, but I'm NB) in the exchange of services scene where Bob transports the man is the punchline that happens right after. Where Bob says "I think I might be a Pimp" or something to that effect. A jab about how Bob's acceptance of the sex workers and friendship with them led him to illegal activity. You could take that as a negative, but the only real negative is that Bob and the women are at more risk. Bob and his family don't decry that he is aiding sex workers out of a moralistic objection, they just worry about getting in trouble. The episode definitely has a lot of transphobia baked into its sight gags and structure, but I feel that this scene in particular was just a set up for a punchline, not the punchline itself. Overall, I think Bob's Burgers is a show where sometimes the creators are a bit ignorant but ultimately it's about celebrating differences and was an attempt at having a positive portrayal of impoverished trans women. It didn't really achieve it, but I do think that's what it was trying.
I agree with the overall conclusion here. I do think that Bob's Burgers is one of the more well-meaning cartoons in regards to trans representation but like I said, there is some bad and some good and some confusing stuff all mixed up in there
I think the joke about the trans(women/vestites) is about the subverted expectation of transphobia. The show sets up a transphobic joke in each of the instances (Bob realizes his passengers are amab, a john expresses hesitancy about a trans sex worker, and Bob bringing his coworkers to his daughter's party) only for it to be a complete non-issue each time. It would be like having a joke that goes "A catholic priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar... order some stuff to drink, have a nice conversation, and leave." There is an "obvious joke" that is subverted by its absence. This then feels really unpleasant for a trans audience who can see the windup for a hateful remark that then doesn't materialize.
@@johnnieboy765 Yes, exactly. It shows why the other cabbies discriminated against them, to then dismiss it to say instead, no actually they're just awesome! I don't think the ones in the cab are trans, just in drag, but regardless, they don't have to pass or be attractive or have a "respectable" job or be drug free to be accepted implicitly by the show through Bob and the other characters.
11:50 I think the "joke" is that everyone's okay with the situation. Seeing Transgender sex workers being normalized in a TV show was so unexpected and refreshing that it could bring out a wholesome laugh. At the same time, seeing trans people purely being the but of the joke was so stale in comedy at this time that doing this was a welcome breaking of the mold. This episode more or less made the statement that "yes, gender nonconforming people are a bit unusual, but that's no reason not to treat them with humanity". This statement gets further justified in later scenes and episodes when one of the girls is just shown as a regular character in a mundane situation. That's more or less what I thought back when I watched this many years ago.
All this being said, I agree with your critiques and I'm happy to have learned they actually hired a black trans voice actress for Marshmallow because actually hiring us to real jobs we deserve to have reduces the need for more of us to turn to sex work as our last resort.
The fact that this episode aired 12 years ago is crucial for understanding it. We were in a different place culturally, and tv even more so, especially in adult animation.
In the context of the show as a whole, I just feel like it wouldn't make sense for it to be an intentional jab at trans people. I feel like the episode is mainly about Bob meeting and mingling with a group of people he never even thought much about, and finding himself enjoying these people and this new experience. It's awkward-funny because you're seeing Bob out of his element. I think the writers definitely misunderstood trans identity but I don't think there was any malintent or any kind of messaging behind it. I think they genuinely just didn't grasp the difference between transgender peole and transvestites, but were trying to be openly sympathetic to them as people.
You make a lot of good points about the issues with the rep here. Tho, like, I can't speak to the sex work stuff, but... there are definitely people who self-identify in a way that's sort of loose about whether they're transvestites or transgender, so this is a sympathetic representation of those folks to some degree. But, since it fits a stereotype, probably needs to be balanced out by other representations. Which they partly do with Marshmallow, but could probably be done more. I do think it's nice that they choose these characters to impart an important lesson to Tina about womanhood. Some folks are bringing up that Bob's Burgers also has cis men voicing cis women, which is something I thought of at first, but... as you've said, it doesn't resolve the dearth of missed opportunities for trans VAs. Very glad they recast Marshmallow. Also, relatedly... how many shows do we ever get to have trans women voicing cis women? Also, I read the claw-your-eyes-out as more of a "catfighting" thing, but I'm seeing other interpretations in the comments, so maybe it's just a joke that isn't landing clearly for anyone.
Headcanon: When Gene looked up 'transvestites' on the internet here, he was trying to find out about trans people, as he feels he might be trans but didn't know the right words to use so accidentally ended up seeing either exploitative porn or transphobic memes. This scared him and held his egg back from breaking, because he came to associate being trans with obscene and unpleasant things. (Gene Belcher is the eggiest egg in the history of eggs.)
i had seen this a lot from Bob's Burgers fans, and I could find no definitive confirmation on it from outside of the fandom itself. it seems to be a fanon interpretation of the character and one that gets disputed heavily because it isnt definitively written. I wanted to focus more heavily on what was from the creator themself rather then from the audience
@@LilySimpson that’s fair. I was really excited to see your take on gene. I feel like if you watched more of the show, you would see and the tiny comments and background jokes and probably have a lot to say. Gene will literally say things in the show about being a pretty girl or about being the prettiest sister. They are not a person who is gender conforming in anyway. He will make comments about being a strong man, and they will also make comments about being a strong independent woman. To me the lack of a definite labels from the writers make this representation Feel more real in a sense. Gene is young, and probably still figuring stuff out. They’re never put into one box or labeled one way instead allowed to fully explore themself in presentation and in expression. Through Gene The audience gets to experience a Loving family that makes room for self exploration and doesn’t question it. It feels like queer representation in an idealistic sense that I’ve never had. Parents creating an environment where a child has the room to explore. The family protecting gene from outsiders who might try and limit them.
@@haileys5224gene is objectively gender nonconforming. That much is certainly the truth. Idk if he’s gender fluid, I haven’t seen anything about it officially.
@@LilySimpson The vibes are also written in the show ON PURPOSE If you are looking for a definitive answer on a child chatacter sexual identity you are going to be waiting for a while. Gene doesn't need to be a specific anything right now, but come on! The vibes about Gene are all over the place in the show and it is an animated show, everything in it was placed intentionally, including the vibes about certain characters. It's kind of frustrating to watch this video, seems like you have a very rigid mindset about what you see as a problem and what is ok.
I'd say the initial casting of David Herman was less an exclusionary measure and more that he was already voicing a number of side characters and it makes more sense to just have the existing cast and crew cover one off characters, then getting a full time voice actor if they become more prominent later.
My friends and I aren't super prolific in queer theory, definitions or all the LGBTQ+ flags but we are a really diverse group and honestly we just have fun with each other. I'm non-binary but I love it when my lesbian friends group me in with them and include me. My drag queen friend uses she/her pronouns when she's performing but she makes the except same "married man" joke all the time. It's cool that in our community as long as we're all having fun and being respectful we all get along and joke around. We all accept each other and understand that as unique individuals we don't all perfectly fit labels, so if anyone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something we agree and just roll. Characters in the show jump to violence, especially Louise, and the adults and the children kind of act the same. That's the joke. When I first saw this episode I loved that marshmallow kept her voice. To me it meant that she loves her voice and is proud of it, as she should be It's absolutely amazing!
Truly, you should watch the show more. That you think Bob is remotely transphobic shows you don't know him, and he's worth getting to know. Bob has a crush on Marshmallow that is absolutely charming.
I feel like while it takes a while to nail the tone it's going for, core to Bob's Burgers is the optimistic underlying message that the things that we are conditioned to reject as weird and uncomfortable are a crucial part of a functioning and vibrant community.
I think the label issue can be forgiven due to age of the episode and age of the workers. Some older folk in the community still use those terms interchangeably. And to be fair, some people going through the gender journey may label themselves different things at different periods. Suzy Izzard publicly went through this. She previously felt the label transvestite fit her. She joked about being a male lesbian and being a dude who just occasionally cross dressed and did jokes about the difference between herself and a trans woman. But in her late 50s, she reidentified as a trans woman instead of a transvestite. I get wanting people to use the terms correctly, and in this instance i do think the workers are identifying themselves and labeling themselves how they feel comfortable. Back in the day, there was also an idea that you were a transvestite until you had the surgery, then you were a trans woman. Yes, that's problematic. But it would be realistic to have characters who think this because they do exist and that was the thought for those older folk. Edit: a couple people mentioned transvestite is not the same as transsexual or transgender, and I agree and acknowledge. But while that may be true, I still think the workers in the show are identifying themselves how they feel comfortable. I know this is a bad example, but bisexual is going out of style for some sections of the community, and a small group is pushing for people to use pansexual instead. And even outside that, there are people who state there is a difference between bi and pan, while other people state there is no difference and it's just a label preference. And older people may feel reluctant to reidentify as pan if they've been bi their whole lives. Older people may use outdated terms when self identifying. So while there is a legitimate difference between the terms, it is possible for people to misuse the terms, and for the misuse to be valid if it is for self identifying
Tons of trans ppl have called themselves transvestites even when transitioning, i know TV, TS and TG all have their own evolving meanings but i feel like historically esp in drag and sex worker communities, girls who would be transitioning would still be calling themselves transvestites and drag queens, surged up, tits and all. Cause realistically that's just the language even if it wasn't the language used by the medical establishment
@@luna-pwhile youre correct in the trans sexual aspect, i remember around the same year this episode came out i belived that transvestite WAS what trans people preffered to be called. It was more so a lack of knowledge of the terms as well as what the queer community was using at that time.
@@luna-p trans =/= transgender. transvestites and transsexuals are just as trans as transgender people and it helps no one to pretend trans identity has always been that cut and dry. it's never "just" meant cross-dresser. transvestite is as complex, important, and broad an identity as transgender. there are transvestites who are trans, not transsexual or transgender. there are transsexuals who arent transgender. there are transgender transvestites. and the divide between those communities as rigid boxes is a new one.
@@soldiaz7261 What I was saying (I think, it was a while ago) was that transgender/transse×ual does not mean the same thing as transvestite, but that doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. They have different meanings but they can overlap.
honestly, I found the trans characters to be a breath of fresh air. Putting aside the VA's (most cis women in the cast are voiced by men) I think they are characterized as weirdos but not any weirder than the main cast. Marshmallow is just a weird lady who comes around to parties. I think Bob has every chance to be transphobic but isn't and that's one of the points of the episodes.
What is different about Bob's Burgers is that it takes place in an oceanside city, vacation resort area as opposed to the suburbs. That is why there are so many different types of characters.
I personally interpreted Gene being ok with being banned from the computer, as a prepubescent kid accidentally discovering porn (the kind being irrelevant) and being grossed out. It makes me sad that for every person who saw it the way I did, theres a person who saw it in the negative and harmful way pointed out.
So, as an afab femme person, I kind of read the *specific* threats of violence as a sort of feminine variety of violence. Mostly because (at least in my experience) it is a specific form of violence associated with self defense and usually taught to girls as they go through puberty and start having to worry about safety. "Someone attacks you, go for the eyes. Blind em and run." Though I will admit that my familiarity of this show goes *as far as what you're showing*
The strange thing about Bob's Burger is a lot of the comedy is just in "how awkward can we make this situation without it going to Peep Show Wedding territory". So there are so many times when I don't know who the joke is meant to be on
I don't think that every single scene in a show like this has to be laughing at something or someone or be a silly situation. It didn't seem like we were supposed to be laughing at Bob encouraging the guy that wanted to be taken to escorts accepting these trans sex workers over Cis ones. It just seems like a scene made to establish that he likes them as people, set up that he has a good relationship with them, and to make sure we know that they've had multiple interactions between what was shown. I've only ever watched 3 or 4 episodes so maybe the overall tone of the show is meaner than I understand. I just don't think that there is supposed to be a...joke in the scene. Just a quick establishing scene.
I was thinking the same thing. BB isn't like most of the cartoon sitcoms in that not everything needs to be a punchline. A lot of the scenes are about establishing relationships, learning, or just pure vibes.
I could have sworn you'd already done a South Park video on their very horrible representation of trans people, but it must have been my imagination. I can only imagine such a video would be at least an hour long at best!
I definitely think it’s important that we talk about what the writers pre conceived notions about trans and trans adjacent characters, but as a trans woman myself and a viewer since I was a little boy I think bobs pretty comfortable with trans people as a rule following this episode, I remember when another character described marshmallow as “tall dark and handsome” and bob was taken about and said “marshmallows not handsome she’s… beautiful” and I thought that was really sweet, and I’ve often found myself surprised about the flexibility of bobs ability to take new people in stride and be really polite usually :) I do think this episode had a lot of rocky moments but I really do love that proceeding this we see some of those girls every now and then and it’s barely a thing they make note of which is a type of representation I love because it just affirms I’m allowed to be a person in the world without being a center of controversy or conversations based on my identity. I love your videos and thanks for making them:,)))))))
I've loved every one of your essays that I've come across, but this one felt a little bit like trying to find issues where there aren't any (well obviously there are SOME, but you get what I mean). One of your complaints is that you don't know what the joke is or what we're supposed to be laughing at and then speculate all of the offensive things that could've been intended but don't make themselves apparent. If you can't tell if they're making fun of anyone, wouldn't a more reasonable conclusion be that they're not making fun of anyone? Bob's Burgers is rarely filled with gut-busting jokes. It's often times a comforting, realistic view on struggling working class families who are just minding their own business trying to get by the best they can. They are always surrounded with extreme versions of things going on and possible plot hooks but the commentary is always that they just don't care because they've got their own thing going on. In this episode, the "joke" seems to be your exact reaction: they set up a situation that is usually a big deal on mass media and the characters just don't care. Bob ends up having to taxi around sex workers and their clients as a side hustle to throw his daughter a birthday party and he just does a good job. Trans sex workers in revealing outfits show up to his daughter's birthday party and no one cares, Tina just gets some insight from a unique and knowledgeable perspective that she otherwise wouldn't. The whole subversion of expectations is that no one cares and they show you why you shouldn't either, rather than the expected route of making a big deal about something inconsequential. It's like the joke "What do you call a black person who flies a plane? A pilot, you racist," but instead it's "You know what Bob does when he picks up trans sex workers while he's a taxi driver? His job." "You know what happens when sex-positive trans women show up at your young daughter's birthday party? There are more people at the party." Obviously there are things that could've been handled better, but a lot of your points seem to be that you can't find the offensive part and instead of assuming there is no offensive part you assume they must have just assumed something was so offensive that they didn't have to point it out and that's even more offensive. I love your videos, keep up the great work, I hope you reconsider this one a bit.
I love Bob’s Burgers, it’s one of my main comfort shows. Sheesh, cab Bob! Is also one of my favorite episodes. I can see how it is far from perfect, though, and really appreciate this video and your discourse. I think the show has really evolved, and appreciate how you acknowledged that, while also staying critical and discussing trans issues. Marshmallow will always stay one of my favorite characters though. She’s everything I want to be; she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free ☺️💕
I think this episode suffers a bit if one is an unfamiliar bob's burgers viewer. Which is very much still on the show producers, since it's such an early episode, so the odds of a first time viewer are much higher. But Bob's personality and how he rolls with the situation I think is supposed to be most of the humor, but it's hard to know that if you don't know Bob as a character. And yeah, there's quite a few jokes called out here I would never initially peg as being transphobic e.g. the joke about Gene being horrified by what he saw (Gene would have that reaction to any porn) and the thumb-eye-gouging threat (I would expect that line out of....literally any character in this show. Especially the fem ones for some reason?) The latter actually demonstrates a huge difficulty for presenting diversity in writing. Because it would suck to have the trans characters not be allowed to behave like any other lovable freak in the series just because society stereotypes them in negative ways that overlap with how folks act on the show? But it's a hard line to walk. I agree trans people always being sex workers in TV is a huge problem, and it's been a while since I watched the episode, but I do remember low-key liking that they were just kinda presented as part of the community. And Bob's response to learning about a side of his community he didn't know about, and yeah was surprised, but he ultimately just accepted it/rolled with it instead of experiencing a huge shock and a moral panic or other cliche.
What I loved about that episode was that Bob just got used to his friends and went from polite and uncertain to just accepting them as they were. They became normalized to him because of his regular interactions with them to the point of just being buddies and not flinching to be around them in public or even in front of his family. That meant a lot to me: normalization through interaction. They stopped being others and just became his buddies. It is through normal interactions with people on relatively equal footing that brought it about. That's at least how it felt to me as a queer cat myself. It was also fun that this blue collar family man was just cool instead of prejudice. I love how that trope was subverted. We working glass joes aren't always narrow-minded. As for the imperfect stuff... Personally, I'm willing to let some of it slide, knowing the time and also out of respect that acceptance can come even when your attitudes and ideas are a mixed bag and changing. Even if you don't fully understand something like this, you can still try to be decent and treat people like people, even as you are working to be better. It's real, but how much you're willing to forgive definitely will depend on who you are and your experiences.
I always interpreted the joke where Gene saw the website related to his youth. Although the children are voiced by grown adults, we are constantly reminded by the show that the characters are, in fact, children. I thought he was referring specifically to the fact that he was too young to process what he’d seen. Of course, this is just my interpretation of the joke and maybe just wishful thinking as someone who loves the show.
Yea, Gene is portrayed as very sex-repulsed, and that joke is about how he’s okay without the computer bc he doesn’t like sexual stuff. A lot of the humor is heavily reliant on knowing the characters, and lily just doesn’t really know the characters, that’s all. Same with violence joke, that’s just how all the characters are, all the characters are quick to violence. And Lily just missed that. There were problems on this episode, but i do feel like some of the ones lily pointed out were just not knowing the show.
One thing about bobs burgers is, it doesn't always have a punchline. Unlike other adult cartoons. It doesn't feel like every single scene needs a joke.
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A lot of _Bob's Burgers,_ especially in the first son, isn't so much joke-based comedy, but humour-based amusement.
i used to rlly like bob's burgers when i was in high school (nothing happened i just dropped off of watching it), and while it is true that bob's burgers tends to have kinder intentions than shows like it (as previously pointed out), its ok to think they missed the mark in certain places! even w/ good intentions ppl can get things wrong and accidentally come off as offensive, and its important to acknowledge when this happens. we live in a society (lol) and it teaches everyone certain racist/transphobic beliefs, and sometimes ppl end up parroting them w/o realizing. it doesnt make u a bad person, just that its good to know this so u can start the process of unlearning things. despite saying shes not a fan of the show, i think lily gave it a fair shake, and even if u do like the show, its good actually to be able to recognize flaws in smth that u like.
Id heard good things about trans rep in bobs burgers so the title has me scared lol (After watching - im really glad to see the show did improve later down the line, even if it wasn't as good at the start)
Honestly I think it did pretty well even at the start. There are problems sure, but I feel like a transphobe would not find much to laugh at in the episode discussed. That alone is a big plus. Contrast this episode with the two main South Park episodes about trans, one where they compare transition to becoming a dolphin through plastic surgery, with maybe a trans character? Or the bathroom one with no definite trans characters. Bob's burgers is beloved by many queer folks BECAUSE the show itself is very queer despite how mainstream it is. Identity for many of the main characters is in a state of flux, Gene is the prototypical character for this, constantly trying on different hats, this is me now! In an attempt to find what makes Gene Gene. It's through this queering and challenging of identity categories that Gene becomes Gene. Gene is already Gene but it's only through picking up, subverting, and discarding an identity that we are about to see our own queer humanity reflected through his performance. Iunno tho I'm just a nerd
@@LMYS5697 I haven't watched much of the show but have seen (but mostly heard) that Gene sometimes does what could be called gender exploration, which is always nice to see - that just because he (currently) identifies as boy, he is still allowed to explore different things to see what resonates. Even if in the end he still identified the same, the exploration would solidify the way he identifies for himself, so is positive for his growth regardless. (Hypothetically)
@@MazTheMeh16 he's very comfortable being a femmie kind of boy. Hard to say what the future holds but Gene has cross dressed at least once or twice in the series
The real problem with Bob's Burgers is that it was originally gonna be a show about a family of cannibals and we lost out on positive cannibal representation
I get the vibe they were really trying to make an episode with good trans representation, but since it was 2011 and the show (likely) didn’t have any trans voices adding to the script and story, it came off confused and not very well aged. Still, it is refreshing that it wasn’t so mean spirited like when other adult cartoons cover the subject. I’d definitely check the rest of the show out if you’re interested in it at all, as this was the only episode I felt didn’t age well and the show as a whole gets much more cleaner and wholesome after the first season, very funny too
To be honest I think the sex workers being physically aggressive is just how all the characters are written, bc someone like bobs wife also threatens people similarly and she is cis. Also I think the joke with gene is that he saw porn and sexual stuff, like a kid his age shouldn’t be seeing sex and sex videos. I don’t think it was a jab at trans bodies, or at least that’s how I interpreted it
I view it as them accidentally looking up NSFW content when trying to learn about trans people. With them being upset at the NSFW nature, and not the trans stuff
9:23 i dont think that one was supposed to be "trans people gross haha" i think it was just supposed to be "11 year old sees porn and is grossed out because kids think that kinda stuff is gross at that age no matter the gender." Like theres a world of difference between adult man being disgusted and young kid being disgusted
I feel like the strict distinction between transvestite and transgender you make here doesn't really reflect the reality of a lot of queer people, especially in contexts such as sex work, that find themselves somewhere between those labels. I know here in Argentina a great deal of LGBT+ activism is carried out by people who identify as _travesti,_ and for whom that is a politically significant label, even if they never dress like the gender they were assigned at birth. They're not just "men wearing female clothing," but they also don't identify as trans, and don't want to be seen as women.
I just thought they were drag queen sex workers when i saw the episode first air. And also about the violent men bit, cis women would say the same thing if a friend pointed out a mustache. Honestly digging at an insecurity can evoke a reaction like that
Your comparison of Bob's Burgers to Simpsons, family guy, etc... is innacurate. The Belchers conflict always stems from the family's love for one another.
I mean I would argue that the Simpsons love each other within the show and that is often clearly the conclusion of the episodes it does but ultimately that comparison was more linked to the way that its an American cartoon show that is based around family dynamics.
@Lily Simpson Fair enough. I guess I just really love how different the family dynamics of Bob's Burgers is. Simpsons and the others are heavily based on shows like the Honeymooners or All in the Family, where the men tend to be hateful and violent towards their own family.
Older Simpson episodes were center around the family's love for each other. There is actually one really similar to the Bob' Burgers episode discussed in this video, were Homer get Lisa a horse and ends up working almost 24 hours a day to pay for it
I think some of the commenters here missed the point of this video. What I always appreciate about Lily's way of critically analysing these topics, is that it's not just a retelling of the episode as the creators intended it to be. Because while the creators may not have intended for something to be harmful, it can certainly be interpreted as such by ignorant parts of the audience. And it's important to look at these things in this critical light, to lern how to convey things better. And they did. That's the main take away from this the way I see it. If people hadn't criticised how this episode handled trans topics, and educated the creators on what their jokes may imply even without them intending to, it might not have changed for the better.
Exactly, I agree. People are missing the point entirely. I understand it's easy to be protective of a show you love but it's disappointing how severely the point has been missed lol.
Definitely! Regardless of how it gets better later on in the series, a lot of people drop off after the first season and this would be their impression of transness in Bob’s Burgers.
i love all of your videos on trans rep in popular media, and just all of your videos in general 💗💗💗 i am afab and nonbinary- i have excessive hair to the point i shave my face, neck, chin, and arms every single day. i started to get my upper lip and eyebrows (unibrow too) waxed by the time i was maybe 10. kids called me a werewolf among other hurtful things. i am 24 years old and still shave every single day to try and hide these things. i have a deep voice and i’m infertile. for these reasons i have always been made to feel “other” than a woman. it pisses me off to no end when people list the above things as indicators for being a trans woman.
I feel like the humor in bob’s burgers just might not be for some people? I think there’s often no joke on somebody where Lily is looking for the punchline, it’s just observational humor. I think the show has a good eye for what people are like and that’s entertaining . The characters are over the top and do absurd stuff but they still feel human and recognizable. People we encounter everyday just taken to another level. The show makes pretty clear what view it has on certain people and their behavior by either making them loveable or infuriating, this is how it mostly prescribes values. I think this is what kinda sets it apart for me at least.
i really love bob's burgers but i've always had mixed feelings on the trans episode. it really didn't age great, but i still think it's a pretty alright episode. could be worse, at least. it really shows that it's over a decade old. i like marshmallow very much and i'm glad they've treated her pretty well.
As a huge fan of Bob's Burgers and a trans person, I knew what I was getting into with this video. It took me awhile to get into the series myself due to this episode in particular and what I perceived to be an underlying transmisogynist tone to the series. Many of the female characters in the show are voiced by cis men, and as media enjoyer I initially suspected this was done, as it is done in many other shows, to make fun of the "masculine" characteristics in these characters. And honestly, I think at the beginning maybe it was. Many Bob's Burgers fans I've talked to don't consider the first season a good representation of the show, simply because it did try to conform to the conventions of other adult cartoons with similar tropes. (I /could/ argue that this was due in large part to pressure from producers to get positive ratings from doing what was "safe." However, I find those kinds of arguments somewhat weak.) As the show came into its own, it became kinder. It focused more on the wholesome relationships between the family members, who are written to actually care about each other in a way that is sooo uncommon. That's why I really liked the conclusion to this video! When shows like this change, they hardly ever change for the better. The characters rarely become more rounded out and less caricatures of themselves (or of certain demographics). My biggest issue with Bob's Burgers as it is today is that it tries so hard to be inoffensive that it doesn't take a hard stand either way, which is dangerous in the current political environment.
The second episode features a musical interlude and an extended homage to The Shining. The first season hadn’t found its wholesome heart, but it definitely wasn’t doing what other shows had found safe
I always read the eyeball thumbing treat as more of a dig at the fact they they’re crack using sex workers in a seedy part of the city more than male coding. They really veered away from shock humor after the first season, it was a lot more like home movies back then.
I will say "thumb your eyes out" is not the most masculine threat It's kind of the vibes of " snatch your weave" But I think you're still right about the overall scene.
Thank you for this, this is a great video. I'm a big fan of Bob's Burgers, but my love for it is almost entirely post season 2. "Sheesh! Cab Bob?" nearly put me off the show entirely. I'm glad Marshmallow has been recast and I hope that means we get to see more of her and perhaps more explicit (and clear) recognition of her being trans. An episode in season 8 I found interesting was "The Bleakening", part of the plot of which revolves around an LGBTQ nightclub being shutdown and having to find a new venue for its annual Christmas Party, and we get a performance by a drag queen (voiced by Todrick Hall, who in real life I believe is gay and cis). Again it's very incidental, and we see some of the season 1 characters again and it remains ambiguous whether they are indeed trans or in drag or what exactly, but I think the episode is an interesting marker on the journey the show's creators are taking in trying to be better allies and better incorporate LGBTQ+ talent into the show.
You gotta get your head out of twittermode. 9:32. Kids banned from the PC for watching trans P0RN. As he'd be for regular P. We can't be certain but that's a reasonable enough assumption
I don’t know what to call these types of sex workers. They’re pretty common, I’ve seen men dressed as women as sex workers a lot in different areas. But I don’t know if they are trans or in drag or what. I’m guessing that the creators of Bobs Burgers are the same, they are portraying a phenomena that does exist in spades but have no clue what it is. Please don’t assume anything else from what I said- im just commenting on whether these characters are meant to be trans Edit: yes, they could have made it clearer in the show. But, i actually find this more realistic because i’ve met a lot of people that fit this confusing mold, on the line of trans and transvestite. Its messy but life is messy. Shoutout to Marshmellow and the show’s improvement!!!!
some are gay, some are straight, some are cis men, some are closeted trans women. I did not think any of the criticisms here were justified at all around them. human sexuality is weird and there are systemic issues, but I don't think writers were responsible for commenting about issues surrounding trans women in sex work when they were calling themselves men.
Hai. Firstly, this is overall, a really good video essay. Great job Lily! 🎉 ❤ I am a Trans Man, on T for 10 months now, and a former sex worker. For clarity, I know that I'm not a trans woman so it won't hit me the same, but this is how I read the first episode. I actually thought that the overall queer discussion in Bob's Burgers (all of it) was really well done. For example; Bob's questioning of his sexuality. Imo the framing of the trans women in the way it occurred in the cab at the beginning, came through a lens of Bob's sheer ignorance on the matter. Literally that's it. It's ignorance framing. Which, I actually found super useful. I often forget, with the spaces and communities I'm in, that I have a weird privilege here in my knowledge pool. Most people haven't got a clue at all. Remembering that other people, average working class cis people, have no idea about us at all. Bob's entire attitude is glorious and just... Loving, accepting and utterly uninformed. And I'm here for it. As for the dude who wasn't sure. That encouragement, for me, made the joke literally the flexibility and fluidity of sexuality for me. It was just... "It's ok to try something new bro" for me. Re: Male Coding of trans women, i also just saw the trigger and the discomfort and stuff. I've used similar language when uncomfortable with friends taking the piss out of me. Their use of language against themselves, to me, read as their personal internalised transphobia. Not a mislabelling of trans women generally. Does that make sense? Marshmallow is a great character too, makes me smile. As you point out, the use of the Trans people to paint the moral lesson was great too. More trans actors, voice actors, etc in media is super important though. I absolutely agree with you on that one! Anyway, these are just _my_ personal opinions as a trans dude, who enjoys Bob's Burgers. Please feel free to disagree with me, and point out where i might be wrong! I love these conversations.
I also agree with most of this too, especially your part about the 'male coded' threat of violence just being her being fed up with a comment about a sore spot. (Although i do think lily makes a good point about threatS of violence often being used as male coding, i don't know if that was the case here) The only thing i disagree with here is that i don't read the comments the characters made about "actually being men" as transphobic. I see trans girls all the time, especially sex workers, drag queens, call themselves dudes, guys, fags, all the time. It's just the way they talk, the way a lot of girls relieve stress and take away the sting of misgendering coming from others, and also sometimes, just the way a lot of ppl conceptualize themselves and their gender journey/transition. I don't necessarily call myself a man even as a joke, but for me, I'm not trying to be a cis woman. I'm a woman but I'm still a trans woman first and for a lot of trans girls, instead of saying that, it's just easier to be like 'girl yeah I'm a dude lmao'
i usually have a 3 minute attention span when im not hyperfixating on something but i watched this whole thing!! i didnt even put it on 2x speed!! ive never watched bobs burgers at all, ever, but this video was good enough for me to watch. thank you :3
A recurring part of the show is Bob and the very obvious bisexuality he has. Parts of the show that might seem to be offensively "pointing out" trans women and queer people, are sometimes moments to show Bob's infatuation with male and female physical features. He's very awkward about this kind of stuff. The joke is that he's genuinely trying to compliment and take interest in these people, but he does it so terribly that it comes off as offensive.
In regards to the common blurring of "transvestite" vs. "transgender", part of the reason for that is because the term transgender is so new. That doesn't mean the concept is new, but it does mean that until recently people didn't have the language to communicate that distinction of identity vs. expression. I've found that a lot of older queer people don't really care to make that distinction, because they've found comfort and identity in the terms that were available to them when they were younger. I do think cis people struggle with this, and its a difficult thing to convey in a 20 minute episode of television, but it didn't strike me as confusion/lack of commitment on the writers' parts. Not every trans person needs a precise label to communicate who they are. Personally, I find it very freeing. If anyone is interested in learning about this sort of thing I highly recommend reading Leslie Feinberg's work, he talked a lot about this stuff.
This episode feels very much "of its time" when there wasn't a decent amount of wholesome Trans representation, so the writers were able to kind of jumble together stereotypes and cross-dressing without actually addressing the entire idea of gender-normality. It feels like a decent step in the right direction, especially for 2011, but it definitely could have been better. I really agree with your take that we need to discuss the well-intentioned but misguided things so we can guide them forward and advance the discussion on oppression and representation.
Tuesday morning really is a free time lmao. I usually havefew things to see on tuesday, while on the weekends it's just too much. Thanks for making comtent int he mid-weed
The "good or bad representation" argument here is a little biased, in my opinion, towards our own experiences. I'm a brazilian trans woman and I work in public healthcare specific to trans people, so I've interacted with some trans and travesti (this is a latina only identity for marginalised trans femmes) sex workers, and it's not uncommon for them to make jokes calling themselves men or crossdressers, and are the population that, in my experience, cares the least about the specifics of language. I don't have the experience of being a sex worker or travesti, my gender identity (as all identities) is deeply tied to my experiences as a middle class person who grew up with privilege and access to academic studies and spaces. So I agree with your concern for the writers to do their homework in order not to spread misinformation about these terms, but considering the people represented in the episode, I think it's good representation, and can lead more towards the "label free" side of the conversation, which can be good and nurture acceptance in cis peoples' minds.
So what I mean is, as trans women judging representation of trans women in media, it's important that we ask ourselves: "is this bad representation because it is a disservice to all trans women? or is it a bad representation of MY experience as a trans woman? And if so, what is my experience and how is it different from other experiences of trans women? Does this represent well the lives of trans women who aren't like me?"
I think there is a core misunderstanding that is affecting how you see some elements of the rep. Bobs Burgers isn't just another dumb family sitcom cartoon like family guy and the simpsons. It's also a heart-warming slice of life. Not every moment of the show is meant to be funny. About 11 mins in you ask "what is the joke here" and the answer is that there isn't one. It's just a moment of normalization. To me the message of bobs burgers as a whole show is something like "People are odd, but if you give them a chance you will grow to love them for who they are". It's still far from perfect representation, but I score it more of a "mediocre but earnest" than a "kind of problematic".
In a "defense" of Bob taking the guy to the sex workers. I always interpreted the "joke" as Bob being cool taking a person to a sex worker and also just setting up That he's friends with them later in the episode
This episode makes me think of a question I have about a character from Ouran High School Host Club, which has its own problems. Is Haruhi's dad transgender or just a crossdresser?
I’m pretty sure he’s a bisexual drag Queen who works at a gay bar, but I haven’t seen the show in like ten years. Japan has its own cross dressing culture that I don’t know that much about. It was a gag to try and explain why the main character of the show doesn’t really think much about gender.
Haruhi's dad is a bi cross dresser, but his friend who runs that one B&B is trans. I appreciate how the characters respect each characters' pronouns and, from what I remember, there's a moment of awkward Japanese shock with each of them, and then they all MOVE ON, the trans-ness isn't the joke, the flamboyance of the characters are.
I believe haruhis dad is supposed to be more of an ‘okama’. Refers to a mtf gender kind of unique to japan. It’s often translated to the t slur unfortunately!! Tokyo godfathers had an okama character and received a transphobic initial English translation and then a later English dub with a trans woman actor :)
I think (and it's only a vague feeling) that the problem here is that you are getting caught up in trying to figure out what the "joke" is, but the thing that sets Bob's Burgers apart from the other family sitcoms is that the writers more or less keep the show grounded in reality. Often, they aren't going for a joke, they are just trying to show what the day to day lives are like for people. And they didn't want to shy away from certain topics. Could they have better? Of course, everyone could. But the main point here's that there is no "joke" when it comes to the Trans characters, they just ARE, they exist.
I think a lot of your confusion at the trans jokes can be summed up to you looking for a punchline at the set up. A lot of the time the punchline isn’t “lol trans people are gross!” The punchline is how Bob responds. For example, when he realizes he has transvestite sex workers in his car, the joke is that he rolls with it and the reason it’s funny is because it subverts expectations. In a usual sitcom, like say Family Guy, the punchline would be someone throwing up for thirty five seconds for being in the same vehicle. Here the punchline is that Bob doesn’t care and rolls with it. Same with the customer Bob brings. The punchline isn’t “ew sex workers who were assigned male at birth!” The punchline is he rolls with it, again subverting expectations. Because in this situation you’d expect the customer to get angry and violent over being taken to a trans-identifying sex worker. And the final joke you didn’t get, about the mustache, where the one gets “violent” the joke isn’t that she’s a man in a dress and therefore violent, the joke is that Bob says she’s beautiful. SUBVERTING EXPECTATIONS. That’s the joke. The joke is Bob is a normal human and normal humans don’t make a big deal out of things that are different from them and try to say nice things to people who need a little kindness. I’m going to take a wild guess and say you aren’t a big fan of the Addams Family, either because Wednesday is violent and Gomez has no control over his family, simply based on your analysis of Bobs Burgers. Bobs Burgers is a modern day Addams Family. They’re weird and they roll with it. That is the entire joke. Perhaps you’re just too used to shows punching down so you don’t know when you aren’t the joke.
I appreciate the variety of counter-arguments and refutations of the statements that I made within this video. As much as it is terrifying to have people disagree with your opinions and what you say, I hope that regardless you are able to find something useful or interesting within the 30 minutes and that it doesn't turn out to be a waste of your time.
disagreed with everything, enjoyed every second of your video. keep up the good work and try to focus on how many comments you'll get of people duking it out here. it'll be mayhem and you'll be rewarded with sweet algorithm blessings! way better than not having people comment under your vids!
It's a great video. You're absolutely right that they made mistakes, and I appreciate that you pointed out that they're improving. Bob's starts as something like "just another one of these American family shows" but has grown into something genuinely moving and progressive. Bob's bisexuality as a married, straight-presnting man, however fleetingly discussed, is really important to me, for example. I believe it distinguishes itself from its peers by constantly refusing to give in to cynicism, being messy, and getting better.
Lily, I don't think anyone can, in good faith, say that your video is a waste of time. They may disagree, but you do present decent arguments, especially as it relates to the reality of sex work. I never watched most of the cartoons you talk about, I just have a vague meme notion of them from pop culture. So I find your videos super interesting, especially relating to trans characters. I also feel that by the end of the video, you make it pretty clear that the show overall had a progressive trend during its run, and that the creators listened to the feedback and improved. You were pretty harsh in your criticism, but most times, you backed it up with clips, and I can see your points. If anything, looking at the comments, I think that the disconnect is that you focused a lot on this one episode, whereas other people seemed more interested at a series-long take and the way it also explored other characters' queerness. Could be a fun idea for a second video... Don't be discouraged by the criticism, though I know that's easier said than done... Sending you good vibes 💙💙
I think you gave a very evenhanded criticism and from what I’ve read most of the counter-arguments come from character developments later in the show retconning or explaining away what might be perceived as anti-trans attitudes. The fact is, however, when this episode came out, those retcons didn’t exist, those characters hadn’t been developed, and you as a new viewer are more likely to have a clear perspective on what was actually the original intention of the jokes in the episode than someone like me who has watched the entire series multiple times. Bob’s Burgers is truly a wonderful show, and it can be painful to go back and look at it’s problematic beginnings, but I’m hopeful that other fans can be receptive to the criticisms made in this video while understanding that they do not irreparably tarnish the show as a whole.
I disagreed with some of it but it was still a fantastic video!! Ultimately I think the main point of contention comes from carrying the baggage of other examples of bad representation into bobs burgers and not taking bobs burgers on its own terms. (And also starting at this episode instead of watching some beforehand and getting a feel for the show). So many of the jokes in bobs burgers that are more meant to be about the silliness of Bob being out of his comfort zone read as jokes that would be more on the other people in a show like family guy
So many bobs burgers episodes hinge on the premise of Bob being in a situation you'd never expect him in and derive the humor from that rather than the other people in that situation so you kind of have to already come in with an idea of Bob as a character to really get that
I love the recurrence of Bob going out of his way to say hi to Marshmallow if he sees her.
Bob 100% has a huge crush on Marshmallow and I love it haha
@@madmarx7543I’m so glad I’m not the only one who thinks that! If Bob ever became a widower (or otherwise single but I can’t imagine that marriage failing), Marshmallow would _easily_ be in the running for becoming the stepmother of the Belcher kids 😁
@@madmarx7543 1000% he does reminds of the line
“Marshmallow is not handsome, she’s beautiful”
“All I know about Marshmallow is that she comes and goes as she pleases. She answers to no one. And she's truly free.”
He says with admiration/adoration.
@@hiddenechoes So cute
At first I felt weird by how the trans characters acted weird before realizing that EVERYONE was weird in the show and they weren’t demonized for it from what I’ve seen. They were just the show’s brand of ‘normal’
True! Had it been another show, marshmallow would’ve seemed kind of insulting, but they made it work s o well
Definitely. When this show wants you to dislike a character they make it clear that that character is just the worst. But the trans people in this show are just vibing. Not perfect representation, but flawed in a very harmless way.
And the show has heavy lgbtq influence behind the scenes a lot of artists and writers are a part of the community I think it’s more representation then mocking
I think of a later episode when Linda thinks she can see the future and she says "Tall Dark and Handsome" and Marshmallow comes in. Bob says "Marshmallow isn't handsome she's.. beautiful"
And I dunno I always thought that was really cute.
@@FabbrizioPlaysi wouldnt exactly say harmless, because there are some harmful stereotypes that are part of her character, but i get your point. they are characteristics that happen to be stereotypes, not characteristics that are written in to play into stereotypes.
I thought the joke was that our wholesome family man Bob is being so chill helping sex workers where the audience might expect him to be sex negative
That probably is the joke.
Me too! He was so chill bringing work their way! And even encouraging people to give them a shot!
That's what I took - that Bob was cooler and more open minded than I thought.
this!!!!
Same! I actually loved that episode because of how wholesome Bob was with the girls ❤️
I urge you to watch more of the show, and pay special attention to Gene. The kid is constantly experimenting with and exploring gender, and he's met with nothing but support from his family. It's a rare and beautiful thing to behold and it redeems the show's gender representation really well.
It's a relief to see a trans kid on TV whose experience isn't defined by dysphoria and pain.
I always love the way gene is supported by his family! I also love the episode when he experiences sensory overload so Bob removes him from the scenario and when gene wants to go back, bob makes ear plugs for him to enjoy the show. It's always really sweet
😊
😊😊😊😊😊
I definitely have multiple friends (edit:) who are gender fluid or non binary who interpret Gene as gender fluid.
I also love that everyone in the show thinks Marshmallow is too cool for them.
She outright is cooler than everyone in the show.
She is just too cool for any show, but we got lucky and she is in Bob's Burgers
@@B4dr4bbit We are lucky to be blessed with her presence.
Bob's line "all I know about marshmallow is that she comes and goes as she pleases, answers to no one, and she is truly free"
Regarding voice acting, Bob’s Burgers is also kind of anomalous because many cis women and girls in the show are voiced by men (Tina, Linda, Ms. Labonz).
I don’t see the issue in Bob’s burgers casting choice BUT, given the fact that trans women with deep voices historically has been used in media to make fun of trans women is why the voice acting is somewhat of a bigger deal. Personally I like marshmallow voice now but her new voice actress sounds nice as well
Why does everyone repeat this same thing again and again
I've seen a lot of shows where men played women and girls (usually for comedic purposes), but I hadn't seen a show where women play adult men until the adult swim show Gemusetto Machu Picchu (which is its own can of worms), but it was a nice subversion.
@@Chronoplague you're going to find that in anime only. I think that all the most famous Shonen protagonists are voiced by women in Japan.
@Jack-px8lfI mean, it’s a big possibility that was the motivation for her character at the time. I don’t think they’ll ever admit it outright but, I believe they did mention their regret about the episode and their portrayal.
Her introduction to the viewers was as a transvestite prostitute. They made sure she fit almost every stereotype to a T.
As time went on we got little more pieces of her character (like her going to college and being 23) but that definitely wasn’t the case in her introduction. I’m not sure the motivation of them keeping her given her small role in that episode.
I love her voice as well but I can see how it comes off disingenuous rather than typical BB’s where someone can have a wacky voice and it not be that big of a deal. I forget Linda is voiced by a man because her inflection and tbh I don’t think that’s supposed to be the joke either. With marshmallow it feels as if her having a deep voice is supposed to be in your face and funny because “real women shouldn’t sound like that” type joke. At least at first.
As a black queer person the thing I liked most about that episode is that nobody owes you passability, nobody needs to tell you what they identify as, and nobody needs to be “respectable” for you to respect their pronouns. Queer representation doesn’t need a label to identify the specific type cis het people need to understand you may never understand and even though you may be confused or off-put it doesn’t me you need to be an asshole or question me about it. There are a lot on non cis sex workers its a thing. A lot of queer people partake in party and drug culture. The idea that despite how fringe these women are Bob still respects and cares for them is overall the positive message we need.
Agreed! I get frustrated when people insist that characters be given explicit identity markers, because I don't even have those for myself, and it feels really invalidating when people act like a character can't be a "real queer" because they don't have a label.
Yes! I made a nearly identical comment lol
@@Tink00 Same!
@@Tink00 I think people forget that a lot of queer culture isn’t “wholesome” because of a lot of suituations being queer has put us in. Personally I was kicked out at 15 and I did SW to survive and I turned to dr*gs to cope I called myself a h**ker as a joke to deal with my reality. So for me it’s disheartening and irritating when people who never had that life want to act like people like me didn’t exist so they can be respected. People like my and marshmallow and the others are a direct effect of homophobia and transphobia. How we live our lives and how we interact with the world is our choice and other people and their queerness have no say in that. You may be my sister and I will fight for you but if you’re gonna judge me or Marshmallows you better not wear anything with Martha P Johnson. Our rights were fought and died for by non passing women of color s3xworkers that identified as transvestites. People need to remember that and keep it cute
This!
The thing I love about Bob's Burger's is that *everybody* is weird and awkward in some form or another, but the show itself doesn't mock or sneer at its characters for that. The comedy comes from the characters navigating situations in unexpected or sympathetically-awkward ways or making sincere-but-sometimes-misguided-or-impulsive decisions that end up spiraling out of control. Bob himself is sometimes flummoxed or stressed by strange situations or awkward social encounters, but he's never mean, hateful, haughty, or contemptuous, and the rest of the family just tends to roll with the punches.
It's unique among American shows in that way
Another remarkable thing about the show that specifically sets it apart from other family comedies is the basic family dynamic. Bob and Linda aren't just married, they're really good friends to each other, and the conflicts of an episode don't change that. I could be wrong though, I don't watch that much tv.
@@nefariousyawnit’s been a while since I watched Bob’s Burgers but I remember Bob and Linda having a loving relationship, with like none of those exhausting “man I hate my wife!” Jokes common in these type of shows. They’re cute together
It's not just that they don't demonize, many of the characters show admiration/respect for characters that fall outside of norms. They don't do it in a patronizing way either.
Agreed. Always looking for the joke in this programme misunderstands what they're doing. Sometimes it's just trying to be sweet, not 100% funny
As a trans man, I love Marshmallow. She may not be a good representation of trans people, trans women in particular, but its her personality that really gets me. She's proud of herself, she's unashamed to be herself, and she carries herself with a pride that I wish I could carry. She may "weird" or a stereotype to people, but she's a character I hold close for my representation.
I feel like she *is* good representation for those reasons
girl owns everything about herself. Plus stereotypes aren't necessarily a bad thing
Show me a sweet potato pie and I am on top of it !
i think she’s good representation cause trans people don’t have to be good people or successful in a traditional sense or blend in with straight/het society to be good trans characters. there are trans women who don’t “pass” well, there are trans women who do sex work to get by, there are trans women that are extroverted and proudly speak on trans/queer experiences. it’s hard to show this to a straight/cis audience because they won’t understand and might dislike it or mock it but hiding part of the reality of queer experiences from them only harms the community
I mean, everyone in that show is weird and I fucking love it for that!!
Apologies if I missed a comment that already addressed this, but something I think missing is that the three sex workers, Marbles, Cha-Cha and Glitter, are separate characters and don't all necessarily have the same representation. Marbles pretty clearly reads as trans with the "town full of small minded doctors" line, but to me Cha-Cha (who gets the line about being a married man) could be a transvestite without that necessarily saying anything about Marbles beyond the fact that one of her friends and co-workers is a transvestite.
Agreed
this was something I took away from it as well- I get that it's through the lens of a cis writer who may not realize the depth of these three characters wholly despite depicting them, but I liked that these three SWers had perceivably different relationships to their presentations. Since it's not the focus, the show doesn't go in depth in having the ladies describe how they see themselves, and if you read the jokes at face value as many cis people would, it will seem worse. But I appreciate that Cha-Cha seems to be somewhere in more of a crossdressing sphere (or maybe a questioning sphere), whereas Marbles and Glitter seem more like trans women. It also makes sense that you get Cha-Cha teasing the other character about her mustache, because unfortunately even within our own queer communities, there is a lot of toxic "passing" mentality (especially from people who are more on the periphery or whose focus is more on dress and less on a gender identity). Overall, it was a topic that was handled as delicately as ignorant cis writers could: there's a lot of faulty presentation, but the core overall is wholesome (like the majority of Bob's Burgers as a show).
In a recent tweet from creator Loren Bouchard, he actually apologized for the early handling of Marshmallow when asked if she was trans or a drag queen. He said he always intended for her to be trans, but they didn't have the information they needed to handle that sensitively at the time and that was his mistake. He hopes to feature the recast Marshmallow more in future episodes since, as he put it, "the Belchers are lucky to be in her orbit".
I guess what I'm getting at is the show has mishandled some trans representation, but unlike other shows you've covered, the people behind it are willing to listen and learn in order to make the show more representative and inclusive without resorting to stereotypes again. In the past they have recast characters so their VAs have matched their race, like Tina's teacher, a rarely seen character but a black woman who was originally played by a white woman until they recast her. Where Simpsons seems to put its head in the sand regarding the existence of trans people and Family Guy just adds them to the pile of people they can punch down at, Bob's Burgers feels like its sincerely trying to be more progressive and acknowledges that its failed in that in the past.
I feel like others have addressed things like Gene (I have always loved how casually gender non-conforming he is myself) or how many of the cis women in the show are played by men, including Linda the mother and Tina the oldest daughter.
EDIT: Also, you put an emphasis on how the show is made by "white dudes". Aside from the show getting its unusual speech patterns from being partially retroscripted (meaning the characters adlib a bit and its animated around that later), the creator of the show and most of the cast are Jewish. I really felt like early on they wanted the Belchers to be a Jewish family but felt they couldn't (perhaps because the earliest pitches had it as a dark comedy where the family are killing and serving people and Jewish people don't need that on their reputation). So they know what it's like to be a part of a marginalized group, even if they are cishet or white.
I always loved marshmellow as trans representation, it was obvious that she wasn't a mockery or a joke that people could poke fun at. She was marshmellow, someone Bob found beautiful (and even admitted to finding her beautiful).
Her and Bob had a beautiful friendship -- and though she was portrayed as promiscuous that wasn't a joke. It was just.. who she was. A beautiful promiscuous lady.
I don't see how people could find offense to her, if she was a AFAB women that was promiscuous nobody would care, but as soon as its covering trans representation everyone cares. Which is good, granted, but if we're ever going to have inclusivity we need to understand some transgender people are naturally very sexual.. such as some cis people are, and some straight people are (lord knows the swinger communities) and that's OK!
Sexuality is beautiful and to shun transgender representation for being too sexual does more harm then good in my eyes.
Truth be told bigots will find backup claims to their bigotry in any form of representation. You could have a buttoned down, secretive non AFAB and they would still believe that the way they're portrayed backs up their claims.
That being said I'd really wish they'd show her more. Honestly, having her as a babysitter to the belcher kids would be amazing.
I guess my biggest (and only issue) with marshmellow is what she wears alot of the time around the kids. It makes me pretty uncomfortable. I'd have the same problem if it was an AFAB but.. maybe that's just me. Nudity in all variations, even bathing suit nudity, makes me uncomfortable.
@@esterbun9356 Loren Bouchard has promised more Marshmallow, and the recast of her to be played as a trans woman is a good sign of an intent to follow through. Maybe with a redesign that keeps her fabulous and sexual but in something less revealing/fetishy. I do agree she'd make a great babysitter to the Belcher kids, especially since Louise actually likes her and she seems to be the major reason they have problems with babysitters (although Tina, being 13, always gets upset when she isn't allowed to watch Gene and Louise herself/it's implied she needs a babysitter).
As for promiscuous female characters, there's Gretchen, Linda's friend, who is openly promiscuous and unashamed about it. Even Linda seems to find her attitude refreshing even if she is happily married and monogamous. (And like many of the women on the show, Gretchen is a cis woman played by a man.)
Another thing is Bob is always happy to see her when he does. Even if he is in the middle of being angry, when he sees her he is always like "oh hey Marshmallow" like it's a pleasant surprise. He does seem to consider her a friend on some level. (For example, when the kids had their silly underground casino, Bob was angry and chewing them out, then noticed she was one of the adults who randomly showed up and was like "oh hey Marshmallow" like it was pleasant seeing her there, before continuing to berate the kids.)
A good storyline from last season was the episode where Louise admits she thinks there's something wrong with her for not being like other girls and liking the same things they do. Tina actually handled it really well (the kids and their relationship is really the heart of the show), but if Louise ever had those feelings again, it might actually help her to talk to a woman who literally worked to define herself as a woman in this world.
Also, I just want to see Marshmallow and Gene together more. With Gene always being so casually GNC/genderfluid I feel like Marshmallow would see this weird little kid and think "yeah, he's okay". And Gene would probably get along with her based on him seeming to just like fabulous people.
It did always seem that way to me they seem slightly racially ambiguous and she has that northeastern accent yk I always kinda figured that just never thought abt it
@@kaos4564 The northeastern accent can be explained by it being confirmed the show is set in New Jersey, at least.
This
so much of bobs burgers humor comes from its wholesomeness. i think the joke in the cab is you expect bob to be transphobic but it ✨subverts our expectations✨ by him being surprisingly fine with it
I strongly agree with this. I have to admit that my gears grind a bit when BB is compared with shows like FG and AD. Those shows (maybe AD less so in later seasons) have such a negative core and rely a lot on punching down. And since that style of show dominated adult animated sitcoms for so long, BB was and maybe remains transgressive by being relentlessly positive. And it does so without putting on rose-colored glasses or ignoring the difficulties of life, as Simpsons did by completely refusing to treat the family’s financial woes with any real weight. (The essay hand-waves away the point that the show is centered in the restaurant instead of the living room, but I think the persistence of their financial status exemplified by the fact that they’re *always working* is critical to understanding the show.)
So, while I do think BB has evolved and would treat a lot of this subject matter differently today, I don’t see the “crack” line as a cliche trope about drug-addicted sex workers. Maybe it is *is* that, as a fair criticism of weaker early-season writing. However, I see it mostly as a way to underline that Bob does not judge-even past the point of comfort for the conventional “open minded” person.
And the show’s refusal to either flinch (by making the sex workers into perfect angels) or punch down (by giving us a FG-style cutaway after the drug reference) makes this one of my favorite shows to this day.
@@johnhalskiyes, the financial difficulties the family deals with is a CONSTANT and consistent part of the show lol
I was going to say this. Jokes are funny because they subvert expectations
You’re absolutely correct. I could see a conservative thinking the joke was something more sinister, but that’s just not the case. This video’s analysis as a whole is completely misguided as to the ideology and humor of the show.
YEP. Same with the joke of the man in the backseat who shrugs.
So I think there is a lot missing here in terms of American drag/queer culture understanding. I had a brief time as a drag king before deciding it wasn't for me (variety of pandemic + drama + local scene related reasons), and the whole convo regarding mustache is like. So real. I've heard that and 5 O'clock shadow jokes multiple times amongst the queens, many of which were trans in some way (whether trans women or genderfluid or nonbinary).
Now, we can certainly talk about the wider culture policing femininity and how this even impacts queer spaces, but like. It's real. It's a real convo tho the response is extreme (...in tone at least. I've heard multiple threats about stabbing eyeballs out with heels or nails, it's just said *playfully*).
And the confusion is true to real life cis people, but the heartwarming thing is Bob is OPEN. Of course Bob doesn't immediately know, the ambiguity is there.
Like... not to say it doesn't have flaws, but I love how it does a great job of making it feel real? Like yes in the drag room there are trans and cis women and nonbinary and trans women in drag who will joke about being men and etc. Bob gets into the "club" because he is helpful and open to these women, and so they don't censor themselves around him like they would around other cis people. The vibe of the episode is "we're all people, and thus all weird" (because Bob's family and Fischoder and etc are all just as, if not more weird), not "look at these weirdos".
I feel like a lot of trans people who aren't active parts of the "grittier" counter culture elements of queerness see this and... and I say this gently and with love, but they do a kinda respectability politics at it. Like I had to actually stop the video when you got to the sex workers part, because I KNOW many drag artists and trans people who are sex workers. It is *very much* a part of the community.
And I loved Bob's Burgers ending because it had trans queer sex workers come to a little girl's birthday party and shown absolutely, 100% NOT to be predators. Instead, they were the life of the party and a big help to Bob. It's sad that this is revolutionary, but I am happy these are repeated friends in Bob's space that are shown to be *good people*, if weird like everyone else.
They may be trans sex workers, but they aren't victims, they aren't predators, and they aren't pitiable. They are Bob's fun friends who get to have power over their client via Bob as a way for Bob to have a "win" this episode.
We know that a lot of trans people are sex workers as she's explained it's the only way many can make money. It's the fact that's how MOST trans people on TV are portrayed as such. We can have other jobs y'know?
yeah i think the show is very much as a whole geared more towards "everyone is both weird and deserving of acceptance," the episodes surrounding marginalized groups like the sex workers or the carnival workers are very much written to be realistic in terms of how people talk about and engage with those groups while also having the message surround why you should be accepting of and respectful towards them
I don't think Lily's issue is about respectability politics.
I think the problem isn't that these trans characters are sex workers, but that the only trans characters in the show are sex workers. If there was more representation that showed that trans womanhood wasn't synonymous with sex work, then this episode would just be "more trans characters, and these ones happen to be sex workers"
It's not that it's not ok for trans people to do sex work, but that for so long the only representation of trans women was as sex workers and this show seems to be doubling down on that. That representation pushes trans women to the edge of society and further sexualises trans bodies, because "trans women are only good for sex work"
Honestly, as someone with only a passing familiarity with the show but a decent amount of context regarding both the culture it's referencing and more generally how especially older transfolk banter with each other, it felt a bit stereotypical, sure, but also not particularly unrealistic and very, well, *sincere* in a way that this sort of comedy rarely is. And that latter part is apparently the show's whole energy in a nutshell. I do agree that Lily has good points about how trans characters have historically been portrayed with respect to sex work and how some of the casting choices were less than ideal (with the caveat that men voicing women seems to just be a thing even with a lot of cis characters in the show), but I do think there is a surprising amount of nuance here, particularly for the kind of show it is.
I think this is really spot on. Very right about how different queer communities would react to this ep--Hell, different AGES too. I remember being so moved & so EXCITED by Bob's Burgers because of this episode! Like hey, maybe they don't 'get it', but they're trying. Esp at the time, this was incredibly positive compared to others. Idk, I just didn't really dig the tone of this video.
imo a lot of the jokes where you were feeling "what is the joke here?" are actually jokes at the expense of us, the audience. people watching this episode in 2011 would have had a certain expectation for how characters and situations like these would be presented in a sitcom, and the show is setting up and then subverting those expectations on purpose. like, the bit where it zooms in on the sex workers' adams apples and stubble complete with scare chords, that's there to make the audience go "oh, okay, I know this set-up, now Bob's going to realize they're trans women and freak out or get weird about it", and then he _doesn't._ the show intentionally sets up for a cheap transphobic joke and then does a hard swerve at the punchline, essentially looking at the audience and going "why, what were _you_ expecting?" the joke about the client is the same thing - obvious setup for a transphobic "gag" where he reacts with disgust, but instead he just shrugs and goes "sure, why not" - it's a joke about what the audience expected to happen _not_ happening.
it also doesn't surprise me that it would fall flat to someone watching it in 2023. these days when you see a trans person on TV you don't immediately feel the inevitable countdown to the transphobic joke at their expense, now we reserve our judgment until the punchline is delivered because we expect shows to be better about these things now than they were 12 years ago (i mean we're often disappointed, but we still _expect_ better). so when the expectation isn't the same, then a joke about subverting that expectation won't land.
Very well put! That’s exactly how I interpreted these jokes
It feels like an anti-joke, where the joke is there is no joke.
This episode really exemplifies the early growing pains of Bob’s Burgers as a show. I think that from the start it was a fundamentally good natured show, and that is what has always set it apart from others of it’s kind who were/are mostly just cynical and mean spirited. And Bob’s Burgers definitely grew into that distinction more and more, but season one especially was really bogged down by a lot of conventions of it’s time, I can’t tell you what the reasons for that are other than guessing that it probably took them a bit to figure out what the show actually was. And that created a lot of that mess. It’s a conflict between what the show wanted to be and what the show had to grow out of.
And of course the trans rep is a good example of that, but also the ending. Bob from a later season would absolutely never think to blackmail someone with the knowledge that they’re into ABDL, because later Bob’s Burgers is a series that celebrates outsiders and freaks and Bob is one of the most striking examples of that throughout the show because he’s nearly always written as the role of the straight-man, but it never turns to him being judgmental about others.
I mean, it’s clearly here already, the way he interacts with the trans women and even gets along with them really well after a little bit.
I’m really glad the writers grew past this. For one, it clearly helped the show become what it wanted to be, but also I wouldn’t wanna live in a world without Marshmallow.
@Jack-px8lf Yes, Adult Baby Diaper Lover.
True but its Jimmy Pesto... he kinda deserves it
Yes! Bob's is like the sweetest most good-natured sitcom on American television 😫 lol
In a way, the show teaches the viewer something as well- that owning up to, learning from, and improving from your mistakes in the past. The showrunners learn it and so do the viewers.
Sometimes taking a risk is better than ignoring something completely. But it takes tact and understanding to learn from them.
It is also interesting to note that (as the show progressed) Bob getting a petty victory on Jimmy would be often be framed as a bad thing that he’d have to walk back.
You gotta admit, "Life gives you lemons, you gotta tuck them" is a pretty objectively hilarious line.
I felt that the part of Gene with the computer was less a joke on men being uncomfortable with transwoman, and more a joke about a 10 year old going to a porn site and seeing more than what he was expecting
Came here to mention this, and also that Gene is repeatedly coded as either asexual, or at least grossed out by anything to do with sex.
Agreed
i can agree with that being an interpretation of the joke, ultimately I was worried about the sort of take-away that cis audiences in 2011 would have around trans people and trans bodies and how that related to the positioning of those comments
@@mamatthews78 That is because he is a child.
@JayTheProduct So is Louise, but she is shown to be attracted to a boy. Gene's reaction to any sort of romantic/sexual discussion/action involving him, including when he had a girlfriend, has been disinterest at best, revulsion at worst.
I didn't take Gene being traumatised by the computer stuff as a transphobic joke specifically, it's just that he's like 11 and 11 year olds think all sex stuff is icky, I don't think the trans part was meant to be integral to the joke
If he was a little older and very clearly interested in sexual stuff like Tina, I would have agreed with you
Honestly his reaction reminded me a lot of when Tina tells him she always pictures everyone naked and he becomes immediately uncomfortable. So that was definitely (knowing the character) that's how I interpreted it as well.
One of Bob's favorite people is Marshmallow and it's kinda nice... And it has nothing to do with her being trans.
He says, "she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free" and "she's not handsome, she's beautiful". He always says hi to her even in weird awkward situations. Maybe she's a stereotype. But I don't care if an irl trans woman is a stereotype either.
Maybe she's also a really cool character who is loved by all the other main characters and treated as a ln individual person and a friend. Nobody makes a big deal out of it. Shes just there and it's comforting.
I honestly read them as sex workers who are doing a job, not necessarily conveying their true selves. I wouldn’t presume to know how a person identifies based on their performance of sex work.
Yep
I think the distinction between the character who states they are a married man and the other character wanting surgery is to depict the fluidity of gender affirmation. The first character might be a transvestite, while the second might identify as trans.
With the voice acting thing, that may actually not be transphobic. Bob’s wife is also voiced by a man, and so is Tina. The show tends to use male voice actors for most the women.
It was still racist though.
@@karmaplace That was the thing that shocked me the most tbh
@@karmaplace yeah it was 😟
@@karmaplaceI must have missed it, what's racist?
That whole men-narrating-women's-parts thing got old fast. But I guess they couldn't change it later. It just became so tiresome and unfunny after a while. Like the kid on Malcolm in the Middle who had asthma who always talked haltingly and slow. Or like Rick Sanchez belching and drunk all the time, thank god they moved on from that tiresome gag.
The idea of an episode about Tina growing up and “becoming a woman” was a perfect space to introduce trans women and have them help Tina accept and love herself.
I'm pretty sure that the 3 characters in the episode are in drag (I'm pretty sure they later on accept male pronouns, and I think in a later season we see one out of drag), but Marshmellow I think is Trans. could be wrong, but I think that's the lay of the land here.
Also, makes sense with the general uncomfortable feeling of "who are we supposed to be laughing at here?" I think bob's Burgers in general avoids making a single character the butt of a joke, instead making the circumstance itself the joke (E.g. the joke here is that Bob has become a pimp for these sex workers, at least that's what I found funny, because he's a very average dad kinda guy, the contrast with pimp and bob is funny).
And Louise's response, "You're gonna need a bigger hat!" is solid gold.
I know this is not evidence at all but in the end credits of the bob’s burgers movie Marshmallow is in a bikini that has the trans flag on it
the one who talked about a "town full of small minded drs." is 100% trans
the other 2 are up in the air
I think some of the humor just stems from the humor of the absurdity of Bob becoming involved in sex work. Something outside of his usual world.
Bob’s Burgers is one of my favorite shows but it doesn’t have as many laugh out loud moments as a lot of other comedies. To me, I think the joke is that you would expect the blue collar patriarch to be weirded out by trans sex work but he just rolls with it. The joke is that it’s wholesome, and that Bob is more comfortable with the outcasts of society than the “normal” people.
As well as the subversion of expectations. Homer, Peter, really most sitcom dads, would be afraid of or hate these transwomen/dragqueens.
yes the humor stems from the humor
I always got that Bobs Burgers just lets trans people be people and welcomed them into all spaces. Aside from the unfortunate terminology in the 2011 episode I think they do a pretty good job at trans representation.
Bobs burgers is very different from simpsons American dad and family guy. That would be like comparing loony toons and friends. It’s a totally different vibe.
I'd honestly remove the Simpsons from that list. The only similarity it has to the other 2 is it's an animated sitcom about a family
their tones & execution however are night & day
the Family Guy/Simpsons crossover even leaned heavily into this by having most of the jokes show the contrast between the 2 shows (Bart makes a harmless prank call/Stewie makes a violent death threat)
Same with venture bros. That show is not even a family sitcom cartoon. That show is a complelty different ballpark
I believe the largest issue is you're taking a single episode. While that is typically your schtick, focusing in on one episode, your episode featuring the Simpsons and your Family Guy episode both gave consideration to other appearances. Marshmallow is a recurring character, often a bit character, but she's respected and it's regularly commented that she's beautiful.
This is a safety show for me so it hits a bit closer to home as it were, but I definitely feel that this episode warranted a bit of a look at Marshmallow's other appearances, however minimal and "bit part" they are. There is the ability to push for better while also acknowledging that the show has already done that, given this was out of its first season out of thirteen (and a movie!)
She literally ended the video by doing that
@@anniejankovic8056 by saying it happened--she didn't go into a single example of it, which she has done for other episodes of this series.
Yeah I'm just thinking of the "tall, dark, and handsome" joke from the Psychic episode when Bob says "Marshmallow isn't handsome, she's beautiful"
I think one of the reasons I like Bob’s Burgers is that it’s not a “mean” show like most of the other cartoons you mentioned like Family Guy, Simpsons, and the rest. The Belcher family is a lot less dysfunctional- they are shown to care about each other and help each other out and etc… They’re also in general very accepting and open-minded. I also find them more relatable than other cartoon families.
ok so regarding the "banned from the computer" joke, i feel like it wasnt intended as a jab at trans people but rather just like "this kid whos like 10 saw corn and is disgusted cause,, its corn", but i agree that it reads differently
Thats how I got it too. Believe me when the Internet was new and commercial I was 10 going 11, and I saw some gnarly shit I wish I never!
Incidentally, the reason we don’t see Jimmy Pesto Sr. anymore is because his voice actor did a January 6.
Least commited method actor
No he's not. JImmy Pesto Sr.s actor was Jay Johnston and he was arrested for the capitol insurrection. They also already have a replacement for him.
@@TemariNaraannaschatz I'm not sure why this comment stsrts with "no it's not". correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you just rephrasing what the first person said?
@@skeleletonboi4533 I phrased that badly, what I meant to say no to is the part that he isn't there anymore, when he got replaced.
@@TemariNaraannaschatz oh that makes sense! thank you for explaining!
There's so much cute queer stuff happening in Bob's Burgers, obviously they were very gauche at the start, but I do love every expression of sexuality that made its way into this show.
If you have time you should check it out! The first 4 seasons are the best imo.
It was good to hear your perspective on it, thanks for the video Lily!
Not to defend the episode, but I think the joke (for me, but I'm NB) in the exchange of services scene where Bob transports the man is the punchline that happens right after. Where Bob says "I think I might be a Pimp" or something to that effect.
A jab about how Bob's acceptance of the sex workers and friendship with them led him to illegal activity. You could take that as a negative, but the only real negative is that Bob and the women are at more risk. Bob and his family don't decry that he is aiding sex workers out of a moralistic objection, they just worry about getting in trouble.
The episode definitely has a lot of transphobia baked into its sight gags and structure, but I feel that this scene in particular was just a set up for a punchline, not the punchline itself. Overall, I think Bob's Burgers is a show where sometimes the creators are a bit ignorant but ultimately it's about celebrating differences and was an attempt at having a positive portrayal of impoverished trans women. It didn't really achieve it, but I do think that's what it was trying.
I agree with the overall conclusion here. I do think that Bob's Burgers is one of the more well-meaning cartoons in regards to trans representation but like I said, there is some bad and some good and some confusing stuff all mixed up in there
@@LilySimpson Agreed!
I think the joke about the trans(women/vestites) is about the subverted expectation of transphobia. The show sets up a transphobic joke in each of the instances (Bob realizes his passengers are amab, a john expresses hesitancy about a trans sex worker, and Bob bringing his coworkers to his daughter's party) only for it to be a complete non-issue each time.
It would be like having a joke that goes "A catholic priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar... order some stuff to drink, have a nice conversation, and leave." There is an "obvious joke" that is subverted by its absence.
This then feels really unpleasant for a trans audience who can see the windup for a hateful remark that then doesn't materialize.
@@johnnieboy765 Yes, exactly. It shows why the other cabbies discriminated against them, to then dismiss it to say instead, no actually they're just awesome! I don't think the ones in the cab are trans, just in drag, but regardless, they don't have to pass or be attractive or have a "respectable" job or be drug free to be accepted implicitly by the show through Bob and the other characters.
@@johnnieboy765 Exactly, you get it. I've never had an issue with Bob's Burgers
11:50 I think the "joke" is that everyone's okay with the situation. Seeing Transgender sex workers being normalized in a TV show was so unexpected and refreshing that it could bring out a wholesome laugh. At the same time, seeing trans people purely being the but of the joke was so stale in comedy at this time that doing this was a welcome breaking of the mold. This episode more or less made the statement that "yes, gender nonconforming people are a bit unusual, but that's no reason not to treat them with humanity". This statement gets further justified in later scenes and episodes when one of the girls is just shown as a regular character in a mundane situation. That's more or less what I thought back when I watched this many years ago.
All this being said, I agree with your critiques and I'm happy to have learned they actually hired a black trans voice actress for Marshmallow because actually hiring us to real jobs we deserve to have reduces the need for more of us to turn to sex work as our last resort.
The fact that this episode aired 12 years ago is crucial for understanding it. We were in a different place culturally, and tv even more so, especially in adult animation.
I always thought the joke of the bob becoming a pimp was just how quickly he assumed the role.
In the context of the show as a whole, I just feel like it wouldn't make sense for it to be an intentional jab at trans people. I feel like the episode is mainly about Bob meeting and mingling with a group of people he never even thought much about, and finding himself enjoying these people and this new experience. It's awkward-funny because you're seeing Bob out of his element. I think the writers definitely misunderstood trans identity but I don't think there was any malintent or any kind of messaging behind it. I think they genuinely just didn't grasp the difference between transgender peole and transvestites, but were trying to be openly sympathetic to them as people.
You make a lot of good points about the issues with the rep here. Tho, like, I can't speak to the sex work stuff, but... there are definitely people who self-identify in a way that's sort of loose about whether they're transvestites or transgender, so this is a sympathetic representation of those folks to some degree. But, since it fits a stereotype, probably needs to be balanced out by other representations. Which they partly do with Marshmallow, but could probably be done more.
I do think it's nice that they choose these characters to impart an important lesson to Tina about womanhood.
Some folks are bringing up that Bob's Burgers also has cis men voicing cis women, which is something I thought of at first, but... as you've said, it doesn't resolve the dearth of missed opportunities for trans VAs. Very glad they recast Marshmallow. Also, relatedly... how many shows do we ever get to have trans women voicing cis women?
Also, I read the claw-your-eyes-out as more of a "catfighting" thing, but I'm seeing other interpretations in the comments, so maybe it's just a joke that isn't landing clearly for anyone.
Uhhh I'm pretty sure the joke about "disgust at trans bodies" in porn etc comes more from the fact that..... Gene is 11 years old? Lol
Headcanon: When Gene looked up 'transvestites' on the internet here, he was trying to find out about trans people, as he feels he might be trans but didn't know the right words to use so accidentally ended up seeing either exploitative porn or transphobic memes. This scared him and held his egg back from breaking, because he came to associate being trans with obscene and unpleasant things.
(Gene Belcher is the eggiest egg in the history of eggs.)
I thought gene serves as good gender fluid representation.
i had seen this a lot from Bob's Burgers fans, and I could find no definitive confirmation on it from outside of the fandom itself. it seems to be a fanon interpretation of the character and one that gets disputed heavily because it isnt definitively written. I wanted to focus more heavily on what was from the creator themself rather then from the audience
@@LilySimpson that’s fair. I was really excited to see your take on gene. I feel like if you watched more of the show, you would see and the tiny comments and background jokes and probably have a lot to say.
Gene will literally say things in the show about being a pretty girl or about being the prettiest sister. They are not a person who is gender conforming in anyway. He will make comments about being a strong man, and they will also make comments about being a strong independent woman.
To me the lack of a definite labels from the writers make this representation Feel more real in a sense. Gene is young, and probably still figuring stuff out. They’re never put into one box or labeled one way instead allowed to fully explore themself in presentation and in expression. Through Gene The audience gets to experience a Loving family that makes room for self exploration and doesn’t question it. It feels like queer representation in an idealistic sense that I’ve never had. Parents creating an environment where a child has the room to explore. The family protecting gene from outsiders who might try and limit them.
It’s a head canon i accept
@@haileys5224gene is objectively gender nonconforming. That much is certainly the truth. Idk if he’s gender fluid, I haven’t seen anything about it officially.
@@LilySimpson The vibes are also written in the show ON PURPOSE If you are looking for a definitive answer on a child chatacter sexual identity you are going to be waiting for a while. Gene doesn't need to be a specific anything right now, but come on! The vibes about Gene are all over the place in the show and it is an animated show, everything in it was placed intentionally, including the vibes about certain characters. It's kind of frustrating to watch this video, seems like you have a very rigid mindset about what you see as a problem and what is ok.
I'd say the initial casting of David Herman was less an exclusionary measure and more that he was already voicing a number of side characters and it makes more sense to just have the existing cast and crew cover one off characters, then getting a full time voice actor if they become more prominent later.
My friends and I aren't super prolific in queer theory, definitions or all the LGBTQ+ flags but we are a really diverse group and honestly we just have fun with each other.
I'm non-binary but I love it when my lesbian friends group me in with them and include me.
My drag queen friend uses she/her pronouns when she's performing but she makes the except same "married man" joke all the time.
It's cool that in our community as long as we're all having fun and being respectful we all get along and joke around. We all accept each other and understand that as unique individuals we don't all perfectly fit labels, so if anyone corrects you or asks you to stop doing something we agree and just roll.
Characters in the show jump to violence, especially Louise, and the adults and the children kind of act the same. That's the joke. When I first saw this episode I loved that marshmallow kept her voice. To me it meant that she loves her voice and is proud of it, as she should be It's absolutely amazing!
Truly, you should watch the show more. That you think Bob is remotely transphobic shows you don't know him, and he's worth getting to know. Bob has a crush on Marshmallow that is absolutely charming.
I feel like while it takes a while to nail the tone it's going for, core to Bob's Burgers is the optimistic underlying message that the things that we are conditioned to reject as weird and uncomfortable are a crucial part of a functioning and vibrant community.
This is such a beautiful summation of the show :)
I think the label issue can be forgiven due to age of the episode and age of the workers. Some older folk in the community still use those terms interchangeably. And to be fair, some people going through the gender journey may label themselves different things at different periods.
Suzy Izzard publicly went through this. She previously felt the label transvestite fit her. She joked about being a male lesbian and being a dude who just occasionally cross dressed and did jokes about the difference between herself and a trans woman. But in her late 50s, she reidentified as a trans woman instead of a transvestite.
I get wanting people to use the terms correctly, and in this instance i do think the workers are identifying themselves and labeling themselves how they feel comfortable. Back in the day, there was also an idea that you were a transvestite until you had the surgery, then you were a trans woman. Yes, that's problematic. But it would be realistic to have characters who think this because they do exist and that was the thought for those older folk.
Edit: a couple people mentioned transvestite is not the same as transsexual or transgender, and I agree and acknowledge. But while that may be true, I still think the workers in the show are identifying themselves how they feel comfortable.
I know this is a bad example, but bisexual is going out of style for some sections of the community, and a small group is pushing for people to use pansexual instead. And even outside that, there are people who state there is a difference between bi and pan, while other people state there is no difference and it's just a label preference. And older people may feel reluctant to reidentify as pan if they've been bi their whole lives. Older people may use outdated terms when self identifying.
So while there is a legitimate difference between the terms, it is possible for people to misuse the terms, and for the misuse to be valid if it is for self identifying
Transvestite didn't mean trans, though, it meant cross-dresser. Transse×ual was the old word for transgender.
Tons of trans ppl have called themselves transvestites even when transitioning, i know TV, TS and TG all have their own evolving meanings but i feel like historically esp in drag and sex worker communities, girls who would be transitioning would still be calling themselves transvestites and drag queens, surged up, tits and all. Cause realistically that's just the language even if it wasn't the language used by the medical establishment
@@luna-pwhile youre correct in the trans sexual aspect, i remember around the same year this episode came out i belived that transvestite WAS what trans people preffered to be called. It was more so a lack of knowledge of the terms as well as what the queer community was using at that time.
@@luna-p trans =/= transgender. transvestites and transsexuals are just as trans as transgender people and it helps no one to pretend trans identity has always been that cut and dry.
it's never "just" meant cross-dresser. transvestite is as complex, important, and broad an identity as transgender. there are transvestites who are trans, not transsexual or transgender. there are transsexuals who arent transgender. there are transgender transvestites. and the divide between those communities as rigid boxes is a new one.
@@soldiaz7261 What I was saying (I think, it was a while ago) was that transgender/transse×ual does not mean the same thing as transvestite, but that doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. They have different meanings but they can overlap.
honestly, I found the trans characters to be a breath of fresh air. Putting aside the VA's (most cis women in the cast are voiced by men) I think they are characterized as weirdos but not any weirder than the main cast. Marshmallow is just a weird lady who comes around to parties. I think Bob has every chance to be transphobic but isn't and that's one of the points of the episodes.
What is different about Bob's Burgers is that it takes place in an oceanside city, vacation resort area as opposed to the suburbs. That is why there are so many different types of characters.
I personally interpreted Gene being ok with being banned from the computer, as a prepubescent kid accidentally discovering porn (the kind being irrelevant) and being grossed out. It makes me sad that for every person who saw it the way I did, theres a person who saw it in the negative and harmful way pointed out.
So, as an afab femme person, I kind of read the *specific* threats of violence as a sort of feminine variety of violence. Mostly because (at least in my experience) it is a specific form of violence associated with self defense and usually taught to girls as they go through puberty and start having to worry about safety. "Someone attacks you, go for the eyes. Blind em and run."
Though I will admit that my familiarity of this show goes *as far as what you're showing*
The strange thing about Bob's Burger is a lot of the comedy is just in "how awkward can we make this situation without it going to Peep Show Wedding territory". So there are so many times when I don't know who the joke is meant to be on
I don't think that every single scene in a show like this has to be laughing at something or someone or be a silly situation. It didn't seem like we were supposed to be laughing at Bob encouraging the guy that wanted to be taken to escorts accepting these trans sex workers over Cis ones. It just seems like a scene made to establish that he likes them as people, set up that he has a good relationship with them, and to make sure we know that they've had multiple interactions between what was shown. I've only ever watched 3 or 4 episodes so maybe the overall tone of the show is meaner than I understand. I just don't think that there is supposed to be a...joke in the scene. Just a quick establishing scene.
You're correct. And there's not a mean bone in this show's body.
I was thinking the same thing. BB isn't like most of the cartoon sitcoms in that not everything needs to be a punchline. A lot of the scenes are about establishing relationships, learning, or just pure vibes.
I could have sworn you'd already done a South Park video on their very horrible representation of trans people, but it must have been my imagination. I can only imagine such a video would be at least an hour long at best!
They referenced how hard that project would be during the family Guy video I believe
I definitely think it’s important that we talk about what the writers pre conceived notions about trans and trans adjacent characters, but as a trans woman myself and a viewer since I was a little boy I think bobs pretty comfortable with trans people as a rule following this episode, I remember when another character described marshmallow as “tall dark and handsome” and bob was taken about and said “marshmallows not handsome she’s… beautiful” and I thought that was really sweet, and I’ve often found myself surprised about the flexibility of bobs ability to take new people in stride and be really polite usually :) I do think this episode had a lot of rocky moments but I really do love that proceeding this we see some of those girls every now and then and it’s barely a thing they make note of which is a type of representation I love because it just affirms I’m allowed to be a person in the world without being a center of controversy or conversations based on my identity. I love your videos and thanks for making them:,)))))))
I've loved every one of your essays that I've come across, but this one felt a little bit like trying to find issues where there aren't any (well obviously there are SOME, but you get what I mean). One of your complaints is that you don't know what the joke is or what we're supposed to be laughing at and then speculate all of the offensive things that could've been intended but don't make themselves apparent. If you can't tell if they're making fun of anyone, wouldn't a more reasonable conclusion be that they're not making fun of anyone?
Bob's Burgers is rarely filled with gut-busting jokes. It's often times a comforting, realistic view on struggling working class families who are just minding their own business trying to get by the best they can. They are always surrounded with extreme versions of things going on and possible plot hooks but the commentary is always that they just don't care because they've got their own thing going on. In this episode, the "joke" seems to be your exact reaction: they set up a situation that is usually a big deal on mass media and the characters just don't care. Bob ends up having to taxi around sex workers and their clients as a side hustle to throw his daughter a birthday party and he just does a good job. Trans sex workers in revealing outfits show up to his daughter's birthday party and no one cares, Tina just gets some insight from a unique and knowledgeable perspective that she otherwise wouldn't.
The whole subversion of expectations is that no one cares and they show you why you shouldn't either, rather than the expected route of making a big deal about something inconsequential. It's like the joke "What do you call a black person who flies a plane? A pilot, you racist," but instead it's "You know what Bob does when he picks up trans sex workers while he's a taxi driver? His job." "You know what happens when sex-positive trans women show up at your young daughter's birthday party? There are more people at the party."
Obviously there are things that could've been handled better, but a lot of your points seem to be that you can't find the offensive part and instead of assuming there is no offensive part you assume they must have just assumed something was so offensive that they didn't have to point it out and that's even more offensive. I love your videos, keep up the great work, I hope you reconsider this one a bit.
I love Bob’s Burgers, it’s one of my main comfort shows. Sheesh, cab Bob! Is also one of my favorite episodes. I can see how it is far from perfect, though, and really appreciate this video and your discourse. I think the show has really evolved, and appreciate how you acknowledged that, while also staying critical and discussing trans issues. Marshmallow will always stay one of my favorite characters though. She’s everything I want to be; she comes and goes as she pleases, she answers to no one, and she is truly free ☺️💕
I think this episode suffers a bit if one is an unfamiliar bob's burgers viewer. Which is very much still on the show producers, since it's such an early episode, so the odds of a first time viewer are much higher. But Bob's personality and how he rolls with the situation I think is supposed to be most of the humor, but it's hard to know that if you don't know Bob as a character. And yeah, there's quite a few jokes called out here I would never initially peg as being transphobic e.g. the joke about Gene being horrified by what he saw (Gene would have that reaction to any porn) and the thumb-eye-gouging threat (I would expect that line out of....literally any character in this show. Especially the fem ones for some reason?) The latter actually demonstrates a huge difficulty for presenting diversity in writing. Because it would suck to have the trans characters not be allowed to behave like any other lovable freak in the series just because society stereotypes them in negative ways that overlap with how folks act on the show? But it's a hard line to walk.
I agree trans people always being sex workers in TV is a huge problem, and it's been a while since I watched the episode, but I do remember low-key liking that they were just kinda presented as part of the community. And Bob's response to learning about a side of his community he didn't know about, and yeah was surprised, but he ultimately just accepted it/rolled with it instead of experiencing a huge shock and a moral panic or other cliche.
I hope that Lily revisits Bobs Burgers with the recasting of Marshmallow. The new episode is so sweet and I think really good trans rep ,
What I loved about that episode was that Bob just got used to his friends and went from polite and uncertain to just accepting them as they were. They became normalized to him because of his regular interactions with them to the point of just being buddies and not flinching to be around them in public or even in front of his family. That meant a lot to me: normalization through interaction. They stopped being others and just became his buddies. It is through normal interactions with people on relatively equal footing that brought it about. That's at least how it felt to me as a queer cat myself. It was also fun that this blue collar family man was just cool instead of prejudice. I love how that trope was subverted. We working glass joes aren't always narrow-minded.
As for the imperfect stuff... Personally, I'm willing to let some of it slide, knowing the time and also out of respect that acceptance can come even when your attitudes and ideas are a mixed bag and changing. Even if you don't fully understand something like this, you can still try to be decent and treat people like people, even as you are working to be better. It's real, but how much you're willing to forgive definitely will depend on who you are and your experiences.
I always interpreted the joke where Gene saw the website related to his youth. Although the children are voiced by grown adults, we are constantly reminded by the show that the characters are, in fact, children. I thought he was referring specifically to the fact that he was too young to process what he’d seen. Of course, this is just my interpretation of the joke and maybe just wishful thinking as someone who loves the show.
Yea, Gene is portrayed as very sex-repulsed, and that joke is about how he’s okay without the computer bc he doesn’t like sexual stuff. A lot of the humor is heavily reliant on knowing the characters, and lily just doesn’t really know the characters, that’s all. Same with violence joke, that’s just how all the characters are, all the characters are quick to violence. And Lily just missed that. There were problems on this episode, but i do feel like some of the ones lily pointed out were just not knowing the show.
One thing about bobs burgers is, it doesn't always have a punchline. Unlike other adult cartoons. It doesn't feel like every single scene needs a joke.
A lot of _Bob's Burgers,_ especially in the first son, isn't so much joke-based comedy, but humour-based amusement.
i used to rlly like bob's burgers when i was in high school (nothing happened i just dropped off of watching it), and while it is true that bob's burgers tends to have kinder intentions than shows like it (as previously pointed out), its ok to think they missed the mark in certain places! even w/ good intentions ppl can get things wrong and accidentally come off as offensive, and its important to acknowledge when this happens. we live in a society (lol) and it teaches everyone certain racist/transphobic beliefs, and sometimes ppl end up parroting them w/o realizing. it doesnt make u a bad person, just that its good to know this so u can start the process of unlearning things. despite saying shes not a fan of the show, i think lily gave it a fair shake, and even if u do like the show, its good actually to be able to recognize flaws in smth that u like.
Id heard good things about trans rep in bobs burgers so the title has me scared lol
(After watching - im really glad to see the show did improve later down the line, even if it wasn't as good at the start)
Honestly I think it did pretty well even at the start.
There are problems sure, but I feel like a transphobe would not find much to laugh at in the episode discussed. That alone is a big plus.
Contrast this episode with the two main South Park episodes about trans, one where they compare transition to becoming a dolphin through plastic surgery, with maybe a trans character? Or the bathroom one with no definite trans characters.
Bob's burgers is beloved by many queer folks BECAUSE the show itself is very queer despite how mainstream it is.
Identity for many of the main characters is in a state of flux, Gene is the prototypical character for this, constantly trying on different hats, this is me now! In an attempt to find what makes Gene Gene.
It's through this queering and challenging of identity categories that Gene becomes Gene. Gene is already Gene but it's only through picking up, subverting, and discarding an identity that we are about to see our own queer humanity reflected through his performance.
Iunno tho I'm just a nerd
@@LMYS5697 I haven't watched much of the show but have seen (but mostly heard) that Gene sometimes does what could be called gender exploration, which is always nice to see - that just because he (currently) identifies as boy, he is still allowed to explore different things to see what resonates. Even if in the end he still identified the same, the exploration would solidify the way he identifies for himself, so is positive for his growth regardless. (Hypothetically)
@@MazTheMeh16 he's very comfortable being a femmie kind of boy. Hard to say what the future holds but Gene has cross dressed at least once or twice in the series
The real problem with Bob's Burgers is that it was originally gonna be a show about a family of cannibals and we lost out on positive cannibal representation
Marshmallow is an awesome character!
She does what she loved in every appearance she has within the series and nobody says anything, not even Hugo
I get the vibe they were really trying to make an episode with good trans representation, but since it was 2011 and the show (likely) didn’t have any trans voices adding to the script and story, it came off confused and not very well aged. Still, it is refreshing that it wasn’t so mean spirited like when other adult cartoons cover the subject.
I’d definitely check the rest of the show out if you’re interested in it at all, as this was the only episode I felt didn’t age well and the show as a whole gets much more cleaner and wholesome after the first season, very funny too
To be honest I think the sex workers being physically aggressive is just how all the characters are written, bc someone like bobs wife also threatens people similarly and she is cis.
Also I think the joke with gene is that he saw porn and sexual stuff, like a kid his age shouldn’t be seeing sex and sex videos. I don’t think it was a jab at trans bodies, or at least that’s how I interpreted it
I hate that I, a tran, laughed at the "I'm fine losing computer access for two days" joke.
I view it as them accidentally looking up NSFW content when trying to learn about trans people. With them being upset at the NSFW nature, and not the trans stuff
9:23 i dont think that one was supposed to be "trans people gross haha" i think it was just supposed to be "11 year old sees porn and is grossed out because kids think that kinda stuff is gross at that age no matter the gender." Like theres a world of difference between adult man being disgusted and young kid being disgusted
I feel like the strict distinction between transvestite and transgender you make here doesn't really reflect the reality of a lot of queer people, especially in contexts such as sex work, that find themselves somewhere between those labels. I know here in Argentina a great deal of LGBT+ activism is carried out by people who identify as _travesti,_ and for whom that is a politically significant label, even if they never dress like the gender they were assigned at birth. They're not just "men wearing female clothing," but they also don't identify as trans, and don't want to be seen as women.
I just thought they were drag queen sex workers when i saw the episode first air.
And also about the violent men bit, cis women would say the same thing if a friend pointed out a mustache. Honestly digging at an insecurity can evoke a reaction like that
Your comparison of Bob's Burgers to Simpsons, family guy, etc... is innacurate. The Belchers conflict always stems from the family's love for one another.
I mean I would argue that the Simpsons love each other within the show and that is often clearly the conclusion of the episodes it does but ultimately that comparison was more linked to the way that its an American cartoon show that is based around family dynamics.
@Lily Simpson Fair enough. I guess I just really love how different the family dynamics of Bob's Burgers is. Simpsons and the others are heavily based on shows like the Honeymooners or All in the Family, where the men tend to be hateful and violent towards their own family.
Older Simpson episodes were center around the family's love for each other. There is actually one really similar to the Bob' Burgers episode discussed in this video, were Homer get Lisa a horse and ends up working almost 24 hours a day to pay for it
I think some of the commenters here missed the point of this video. What I always appreciate about Lily's way of critically analysing these topics, is that it's not just a retelling of the episode as the creators intended it to be. Because while the creators may not have intended for something to be harmful, it can certainly be interpreted as such by ignorant parts of the audience. And it's important to look at these things in this critical light, to lern how to convey things better. And they did.
That's the main take away from this the way I see it. If people hadn't criticised how this episode handled trans topics, and educated the creators on what their jokes may imply even without them intending to, it might not have changed for the better.
Exactly, I agree. People are missing the point entirely. I understand it's easy to be protective of a show you love but it's disappointing how severely the point has been missed lol.
Nah she compared bobs burgers to family guy and the Simpsons she doesn't get the show and should not be talking about it
Nah I don't think she criticized a part of the show in a legit way.
@@od3910 r/woosh
Definitely! Regardless of how it gets better later on in the series, a lot of people drop off after the first season and this would be their impression of transness in Bob’s Burgers.
i love all of your videos on trans rep in popular media, and just all of your videos in general 💗💗💗
i am afab and nonbinary-
i have excessive hair to the point i shave my face, neck, chin, and arms every single day. i started to get my upper lip and eyebrows (unibrow too) waxed by the time i was maybe 10. kids called me a werewolf among other hurtful things. i am 24 years old and still shave every single day to try and hide these things. i have a deep voice and i’m infertile. for these reasons i have always been made to feel “other” than a woman. it pisses me off to no end when people list the above things as indicators for being a trans woman.
I feel like the humor in bob’s burgers just might not be for some people? I think there’s often no joke on somebody where Lily is looking for the punchline, it’s just observational humor. I think the show has a good eye for what people are like and that’s entertaining . The characters are over the top and do absurd stuff but they still feel human and recognizable. People we encounter everyday just taken to another level. The show makes pretty clear what view it has on certain people and their behavior by either making them loveable or infuriating, this is how it mostly prescribes values. I think this is what kinda sets it apart for me at least.
i really love bob's burgers but i've always had mixed feelings on the trans episode. it really didn't age great, but i still think it's a pretty alright episode. could be worse, at least. it really shows that it's over a decade old.
i like marshmallow very much and i'm glad they've treated her pretty well.
As a huge fan of Bob's Burgers and a trans person, I knew what I was getting into with this video. It took me awhile to get into the series myself due to this episode in particular and what I perceived to be an underlying transmisogynist tone to the series. Many of the female characters in the show are voiced by cis men, and as media enjoyer I initially suspected this was done, as it is done in many other shows, to make fun of the "masculine" characteristics in these characters. And honestly, I think at the beginning maybe it was. Many Bob's Burgers fans I've talked to don't consider the first season a good representation of the show, simply because it did try to conform to the conventions of other adult cartoons with similar tropes. (I /could/ argue that this was due in large part to pressure from producers to get positive ratings from doing what was "safe." However, I find those kinds of arguments somewhat weak.) As the show came into its own, it became kinder. It focused more on the wholesome relationships between the family members, who are written to actually care about each other in a way that is sooo uncommon. That's why I really liked the conclusion to this video! When shows like this change, they hardly ever change for the better. The characters rarely become more rounded out and less caricatures of themselves (or of certain demographics). My biggest issue with Bob's Burgers as it is today is that it tries so hard to be inoffensive that it doesn't take a hard stand either way, which is dangerous in the current political environment.
The second episode features a musical interlude and an extended homage to The Shining.
The first season hadn’t found its wholesome heart, but it definitely wasn’t doing what other shows had found safe
I've been waiting for this video ever since I found your channel a week ago!
I always read the eyeball thumbing treat as more of a dig at the fact they they’re crack using sex workers in a seedy part of the city more than male coding. They really veered away from shock humor after the first season, it was a lot more like home movies back then.
I will say "thumb your eyes out" is not the most masculine threat It's kind of the vibes of " snatch your weave"
But I think you're still right about the overall scene.
Thank you for this, this is a great video. I'm a big fan of Bob's Burgers, but my love for it is almost entirely post season 2. "Sheesh! Cab Bob?" nearly put me off the show entirely.
I'm glad Marshmallow has been recast and I hope that means we get to see more of her and perhaps more explicit (and clear) recognition of her being trans. An episode in season 8 I found interesting was "The Bleakening", part of the plot of which revolves around an LGBTQ nightclub being shutdown and having to find a new venue for its annual Christmas Party, and we get a performance by a drag queen (voiced by Todrick Hall, who in real life I believe is gay and cis). Again it's very incidental, and we see some of the season 1 characters again and it remains ambiguous whether they are indeed trans or in drag or what exactly, but I think the episode is an interesting marker on the journey the show's creators are taking in trying to be better allies and better incorporate LGBTQ+ talent into the show.
Todrick Hall frequently does drag, though. I don't think it's weird for him to do so in a cartoon, too
You gotta get your head out of twittermode. 9:32. Kids banned from the PC for watching trans P0RN. As he'd be for regular P. We can't be certain but that's a reasonable enough assumption
I don’t know what to call these types of sex workers. They’re pretty common, I’ve seen men dressed as women as sex workers a lot in different areas. But I don’t know if they are trans or in drag or what.
I’m guessing that the creators of Bobs Burgers are the same, they are portraying a phenomena that does exist in spades but have no clue what it is.
Please don’t assume anything else from what I said- im just commenting on whether these characters are meant to be trans
Edit: yes, they could have made it clearer in the show. But, i actually find this more realistic because i’ve met a lot of people that fit this confusing mold, on the line of trans and transvestite. Its messy but life is messy.
Shoutout to Marshmellow and the show’s improvement!!!!
some are gay, some are straight, some are cis men, some are closeted trans women. I did not think any of the criticisms here were justified at all around them. human sexuality is weird and there are systemic issues, but I don't think writers were responsible for commenting about issues surrounding trans women in sex work when they were calling themselves men.
Yet the phrase you used ("men dressed as women") pins it down on only transvestites - unless you accept a transphobic framing off the matter.
Hai. Firstly, this is overall, a really good video essay. Great job Lily! 🎉 ❤
I am a Trans Man, on T for 10 months now, and a former sex worker. For clarity, I know that I'm not a trans woman so it won't hit me the same, but this is how I read the first episode.
I actually thought that the overall queer discussion in Bob's Burgers (all of it) was really well done. For example; Bob's questioning of his sexuality.
Imo the framing of the trans women in the way it occurred in the cab at the beginning, came through a lens of Bob's sheer ignorance on the matter. Literally that's it. It's ignorance framing. Which, I actually found super useful.
I often forget, with the spaces and communities I'm in, that I have a weird privilege here in my knowledge pool. Most people haven't got a clue at all.
Remembering that other people, average working class cis people, have no idea about us at all. Bob's entire attitude is glorious and just... Loving, accepting and utterly uninformed. And I'm here for it.
As for the dude who wasn't sure. That encouragement, for me, made the joke literally the flexibility and fluidity of sexuality for me. It was just... "It's ok to try something new bro" for me.
Re: Male Coding of trans women, i also just saw the trigger and the discomfort and stuff. I've used similar language when uncomfortable with friends taking the piss out of me.
Their use of language against themselves, to me, read as their personal internalised transphobia. Not a mislabelling of trans women generally. Does that make sense?
Marshmallow is a great character too, makes me smile. As you point out, the use of the Trans people to paint the moral lesson was great too.
More trans actors, voice actors, etc in media is super important though. I absolutely agree with you on that one!
Anyway, these are just _my_ personal opinions as a trans dude, who enjoys Bob's Burgers.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and point out where i might be wrong! I love these conversations.
Thank you for sharing your thorough take, I really enjoyed your interpretation.
@@hiddenechoes I'm glad you did so. I mostly figured no one would care XD
I also agree with most of this too, especially your part about the 'male coded' threat of violence just being her being fed up with a comment about a sore spot. (Although i do think lily makes a good point about threatS of violence often being used as male coding, i don't know if that was the case here)
The only thing i disagree with here is that i don't read the comments the characters made about "actually being men" as transphobic. I see trans girls all the time, especially sex workers, drag queens, call themselves dudes, guys, fags, all the time. It's just the way they talk, the way a lot of girls relieve stress and take away the sting of misgendering coming from others, and also sometimes, just the way a lot of ppl conceptualize themselves and their gender journey/transition. I don't necessarily call myself a man even as a joke, but for me, I'm not trying to be a cis woman. I'm a woman but I'm still a trans woman first and for a lot of trans girls, instead of saying that, it's just easier to be like 'girl yeah I'm a dude lmao'
i usually have a 3 minute attention span when im not hyperfixating on something but i watched this whole thing!! i didnt even put it on 2x speed!! ive never watched bobs burgers at all, ever, but this video was good enough for me to watch. thank you :3
i enjoyed this
A recurring part of the show is Bob and the very obvious bisexuality he has. Parts of the show that might seem to be offensively "pointing out" trans women and queer people, are sometimes moments to show Bob's infatuation with male and female physical features. He's very awkward about this kind of stuff. The joke is that he's genuinely trying to compliment and take interest in these people, but he does it so terribly that it comes off as offensive.
In regards to the common blurring of "transvestite" vs. "transgender", part of the reason for that is because the term transgender is so new. That doesn't mean the concept is new, but it does mean that until recently people didn't have the language to communicate that distinction of identity vs. expression. I've found that a lot of older queer people don't really care to make that distinction, because they've found comfort and identity in the terms that were available to them when they were younger. I do think cis people struggle with this, and its a difficult thing to convey in a 20 minute episode of television, but it didn't strike me as confusion/lack of commitment on the writers' parts. Not every trans person needs a precise label to communicate who they are. Personally, I find it very freeing. If anyone is interested in learning about this sort of thing I highly recommend reading Leslie Feinberg's work, he talked a lot about this stuff.
Rumor has it that “James of Telos” has plagiarized this. You might want to check that out.
i do remember the trans lady on rollerskates was always respected by everyone in the town.
This episode feels very much "of its time" when there wasn't a decent amount of wholesome Trans representation, so the writers were able to kind of jumble together stereotypes and cross-dressing without actually addressing the entire idea of gender-normality. It feels like a decent step in the right direction, especially for 2011, but it definitely could have been better.
I really agree with your take that we need to discuss the well-intentioned but misguided things so we can guide them forward and advance the discussion on oppression and representation.
Tuesday morning really is a free time lmao. I usually havefew things to see on tuesday, while on the weekends it's just too much.
Thanks for making comtent int he mid-weed
The "good or bad representation" argument here is a little biased, in my opinion, towards our own experiences. I'm a brazilian trans woman and I work in public healthcare specific to trans people, so I've interacted with some trans and travesti (this is a latina only identity for marginalised trans femmes) sex workers, and it's not uncommon for them to make jokes calling themselves men or crossdressers, and are the population that, in my experience, cares the least about the specifics of language.
I don't have the experience of being a sex worker or travesti, my gender identity (as all identities) is deeply tied to my experiences as a middle class person who grew up with privilege and access to academic studies and spaces. So I agree with your concern for the writers to do their homework in order not to spread misinformation about these terms, but considering the people represented in the episode, I think it's good representation, and can lead more towards the "label free" side of the conversation, which can be good and nurture acceptance in cis peoples' minds.
So what I mean is, as trans women judging representation of trans women in media, it's important that we ask ourselves: "is this bad representation because it is a disservice to all trans women? or is it a bad representation of MY experience as a trans woman? And if so, what is my experience and how is it different from other experiences of trans women? Does this represent well the lives of trans women who aren't like me?"
Your output is insane! So many great videos so quickly
I think there is a core misunderstanding that is affecting how you see some elements of the rep. Bobs Burgers isn't just another dumb family sitcom cartoon like family guy and the simpsons. It's also a heart-warming slice of life. Not every moment of the show is meant to be funny. About 11 mins in you ask "what is the joke here" and the answer is that there isn't one. It's just a moment of normalization. To me the message of bobs burgers as a whole show is something like "People are odd, but if you give them a chance you will grow to love them for who they are". It's still far from perfect representation, but I score it more of a "mediocre but earnest" than a "kind of problematic".
This is exactly why Bobs Burgers is one of my favorite shows.
In a "defense" of Bob taking the guy to the sex workers. I always interpreted the "joke" as Bob being cool taking a person to a sex worker and also just setting up That he's friends with them later in the episode
This episode makes me think of a question I have about a character from Ouran High School Host Club, which has its own problems. Is Haruhi's dad transgender or just a crossdresser?
I’m pretty sure he’s a bisexual drag Queen who works at a gay bar, but I haven’t seen the show in like ten years. Japan has its own cross dressing culture that I don’t know that much about. It was a gag to try and explain why the main character of the show doesn’t really think much about gender.
I thought he was a cross dresser who has trans friends
Haruhi's dad is a bi cross dresser, but his friend who runs that one B&B is trans. I appreciate how the characters respect each characters' pronouns and, from what I remember, there's a moment of awkward Japanese shock with each of them, and then they all MOVE ON, the trans-ness isn't the joke, the flamboyance of the characters are.
Honestly I appreciate all of the clarification, that makes sense! Thank you!
I believe haruhis dad is supposed to be more of an ‘okama’. Refers to a mtf gender kind of unique to japan. It’s often translated to the t slur unfortunately!! Tokyo godfathers had an okama character and received a transphobic initial English translation and then a later English dub with a trans woman actor :)
I think (and it's only a vague feeling) that the problem here is that you are getting caught up in trying to figure out what the "joke" is, but the thing that sets Bob's Burgers apart from the other family sitcoms is that the writers more or less keep the show grounded in reality. Often, they aren't going for a joke, they are just trying to show what the day to day lives are like for people. And they didn't want to shy away from certain topics. Could they have better? Of course, everyone could. But the main point here's that there is no "joke" when it comes to the Trans characters, they just ARE, they exist.
I think a lot of your confusion at the trans jokes can be summed up to you looking for a punchline at the set up. A lot of the time the punchline isn’t “lol trans people are gross!” The punchline is how Bob responds. For example, when he realizes he has transvestite sex workers in his car, the joke is that he rolls with it and the reason it’s funny is because it subverts expectations. In a usual sitcom, like say Family Guy, the punchline would be someone throwing up for thirty five seconds for being in the same vehicle. Here the punchline is that Bob doesn’t care and rolls with it. Same with the customer Bob brings. The punchline isn’t “ew sex workers who were assigned male at birth!” The punchline is he rolls with it, again subverting expectations. Because in this situation you’d expect the customer to get angry and violent over being taken to a trans-identifying sex worker. And the final joke you didn’t get, about the mustache, where the one gets “violent” the joke isn’t that she’s a man in a dress and therefore violent, the joke is that Bob says she’s beautiful. SUBVERTING EXPECTATIONS. That’s the joke. The joke is Bob is a normal human and normal humans don’t make a big deal out of things that are different from them and try to say nice things to people who need a little kindness.
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you aren’t a big fan of the Addams Family, either because Wednesday is violent and Gomez has no control over his family, simply based on your analysis of Bobs Burgers. Bobs Burgers is a modern day Addams Family. They’re weird and they roll with it. That is the entire joke. Perhaps you’re just too used to shows punching down so you don’t know when you aren’t the joke.
I'm going to be honest "when life gives you lemons, tuck em" is actually cheesy cheesy gold and i love it.