14:00 Probably that the phase cables wired to the controller have huge impact on the heat transfer/ dissipation. Large wires = better heat transfer. Flat wires = better heat dissipations due to surface to cross section ratio. I bet that the heat transfer on the bottom of the pcb phases is less important than that.
Trampa STR500 uses those studs like you describe. They solder them in place too. Pretty sure they will never sheer off! The BAC8000 I have for repair, the phase solder pad is completely eroded away. Nothing to solder onto like you describe! I have to entirely depot the controller, remove it from the shell and then use a brass screw via the underside and some added copper foil on the top side to even get a decent current path back.
Hey man I'm an avid viewer of your content, love what you're doing. I'm a motor manufacturer based out of India, would love to connect and share a chat. 👍🏻
Yeah...a little over a month since my Spintend video...definitely slowed down video content with everything stolen! Lots of things I can't do anymore with no cameras, no electronics equipment, no EV parts, no machines to the tune of about $70,000!!! Watt Wheels claims "I ruined his business", when thanks to all my equipment he stole, if anything, I made his capabilities 10X better!!! In between time, I've got nothing but my laptop!!!
@@lezbriddon So i must have been a royal shit in a past life if the "universe finds balance"! In this life, the "universe" for the second time has laid a world of hurt on me!
12:45 that has to be battery -, all of the low side phase legs are referenced to ground so that is the heat sink for the low side FETs. High side FETs are different potential so they are separated
Any mosfet based controller will probably be built from N-channel mosfets. On the high side mosfets all the Drains from all 3 phases will connect to BATT+. There Sources will split up for the 3 phase busses. Low side mosfets, all the Sources will commonly connect to BATT- and their Drains will split up for the 3 phase busses. The 3 sets of copper pads in the center of the board are the phase busses. If you look at the TOLL package, Drain is the large copper pad on the back of the mosfet and the many legs are Source (except one for gate).
@@de-bodgery ahhh I'm so silly. Of course since the drain would have the heat sink connection. I'm always thinking about the gate driver design where it is all referenced around HV- and the phase. Thanks for correcting me!
@@GrenYT Typical mosfet gates can't handle more than 20v. Gate drive electronics have to account for this. So for low side, it's easy, just apply 0v or 12v in reference to BATT- and the mosfets turn on and off just fine. High side mosfets reference the ever changing pack voltage so they can "pretend" to reference a maximum of 20v for source to gate. Gate drive electronics need to "know" how far less than the BATT+ voltage is going to shut off the high side mosfets, but not be too little so they float or gate voltage is exceeded. It's a bit more complicated, but modern gate driver IC's handle this. I think it's this detail that you were really thinking about.
TOLT mosfets are 2.5MM thick. Even the added copper on the bottom of the SEVEN 30 which lays flat on the board has to be thinner than that. About all you can really do is lay some copper across the phase busses on the bottom of the board due to thickness constraints of the mosfet package.
I am all for new VESC variants...especially with higher voltage...but I am still cautious since the 3Shul crap that burned up on me.... and some amateur-isch design choices can be seen here as well... Hope this will improve in the final design of the PCBs
9:35 I imagine that one day, just like prismatic cells, square electrolytic capacitors will exist and reach better fill factor on the pcb amd enable to even be closer to the fets for improved performance by reducing inductance and resistance...
Electrolytic construction isn't much different from NMC cell construction. NMC can be a jelly role for cylindrical cells or many thin sets of cells stacked together to get a pouch or rectangular cell. Caps in cans are just a jelly role, but they could be made with many thin layers as well so the cap is a rectangle. Ceramic caps are many thin sections of ceramic with aluminum deposited on the ceramic and many layers of that all stacked on top of each other to make a capacitor. Foil sheets and an insulator between them is done already. Thin film caps are made that way in rectangular shells.
@@de-bodgery Yes that's what i'm saying. I work in battery industry. Anode, separator and cathode.. in a roll or a stack.. but for the form factor, the joules of storage capacity per apparent surface on teh pcb would be better if square than round... this woudl allow to stack more joules or to stack then closer to the fets
@@Doctorbasss Yes...well can style electrolytics are abundant and cheap. Probably why you see them so much. I do agree that close as possible to the mosfets is best. I've been following your YT channel for years. Sometimes I watch your content more than others. I don't think I knew you worked on batteries for a living...just as a hobby.
@@de-bodgery I dont share my consultingwork on the internet. Only personnal projects. I indirectly worked on projects for Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, ZERO, Rimac, BRP and many others. Last time I was employe I was developping ultra quick laser welding machine for large EV battery production.
I'm surprised that the industry seems to be moving towards voltages higher than 100v (nominal) due to the dangers that come with it. Obviously any voltage can be dangerous but 100 becomes deadly quick. I was planning to do an electric motorcycle build and go with the 96v route but I would need something like 1200 phase amps to get the power I want. Torque is the whole benefit of electric in my opinion anyways. I guess it's only a matter of time before PEV motor manufacturers start to make super low KV motors to take advantage of the high voltage controllers coming to the market.
Motors that operate at 131v/32S are already plentiful. 400v motors are pretty common too. There's plenty of options of motors designed with low enough KV's and tested for 400v applications. Never mind all the used motor market from electric or hybrid cars.
I agree that low voltages are nice; but you dont really have much leeway in Kv/Kt actually; in practice there is a pretty hard floor due to the realities of practical motor construction. Im working right now on a design wound with a split pair of 2x3 phases, with two independent controllers on the same motor; effectively putting the controllers in series and getting double the effective voltage to tame your R and L. This is pretty common in electric aircraft for redundancy, but it also makes for very peppy light EVs while staying under the 75V legal limit for low voltage devices.
@@eelcohoogendoorn8044 Low voltage means high current. Is rather have higher voltage. I run a 6 phase motor on dual controllers myself. They aren't in series. This is effectively 2 motors wound on the same stator in parallel. Where are you located that you can't exceed 75v? This isn't the case in the USA. I can build at whatever voltage I want here.
@@de-bodgery you can exceed 75v anywhere; but in the EU its no longer a low voltage device and different regulations apply. Regulations aside, im also happier with the lower voltage myself, as far as batteries I have to plug and unplug, let along actual work on something. Since phase currents are independent from all this; the only place the extra current might bother you is in the bus. It depends on the application I suppose but adding an extra mm2 of bus wire usually isnt the issue
@@de-bodgery The two motors wound on the same stator sounds like exactly the thing im talking about btw. Im calling that 'in series' since you have effectively half the L and R to push against per controller while the same phase current limits apply.
To whom or what are you referring? I can tell you I'm no scammer. I firmly believe that if its wrong for it to happen to me, it's wrong for me to do it to others! I'm far from perfect at being non-hypocritical, but Its what I try to do with everything! As a result, I'm a strong supporter of Ukraine. I know I wouldn't want to be invaded, destroyed, robbed and killed...so it's equally WRONG to happen to them! If trying to be honest and truthful and true to my word and consistent in how I treat others vs myself makes me a scammer...if that's your implication...then so be it. I have to say, that's got to be the most bizarre definition of a "scammer" I've ever seen! You might want to look up what that word means.
@@de-bodgery I’m not sure why you would bring a political argument to this at all, particularly because the reality of your example is much more complicated than a 2d version you have laid out. Anyhow, I like your channel and find your efforts both useful and informative in other regards. Take care!
Thank you for this!
All options are good options!
I'd try this out for my crf450 most defiantly!!
718
Looks very exciting! Would love to upgrade a dualtron to something like that.
Thank you .
Thanks maaaate!!
14:00 Probably that the phase cables wired to the controller have huge impact on the heat transfer/ dissipation. Large wires = better heat transfer. Flat wires = better heat dissipations due to surface to cross section ratio. I bet that the heat transfer on the bottom of the pcb phases is less important than that.
Trampa STR500 uses those studs like you describe. They solder them in place too. Pretty sure they will never sheer off! The BAC8000 I have for repair, the phase solder pad is completely eroded away. Nothing to solder onto like you describe! I have to entirely depot the controller, remove it from the shell and then use a brass screw via the underside and some added copper foil on the top side to even get a decent current path back.
Yeaaahh nice to see my favourite electronics geek friends on every new controller video haha
Hey man I'm an avid viewer of your content, love what you're doing. I'm a motor manufacturer based out of India, would love to connect and share a chat. 👍🏻
Hi...ping me on Facebook : Richard Gumfaw
long time no see!
Yeah...a little over a month since my Spintend video...definitely slowed down video content with everything stolen! Lots of things I can't do anymore with no cameras, no electronics equipment, no EV parts, no machines to the tune of about $70,000!!! Watt Wheels claims "I ruined his business", when thanks to all my equipment he stole, if anything, I made his capabilities 10X better!!! In between time, I've got nothing but my laptop!!!
@@de-bodgery yeah that stunk. the universe always finds balance
@@lezbriddon So i must have been a royal shit in a past life if the "universe finds balance"! In this life, the "universe" for the second time has laid a world of hurt on me!
@@de-bodgery haha no I don't subscribe to the previous life thing I reckon the universe will get him in this one somehow
@@de-bodgery Wow, what happened? I hope insurance covered some of it at least .
12:45 that has to be battery -, all of the low side phase legs are referenced to ground so that is the heat sink for the low side FETs. High side FETs are different potential so they are separated
Any mosfet based controller will probably be built from N-channel mosfets. On the high side mosfets all the Drains from all 3 phases will connect to BATT+. There Sources will split up for the 3 phase busses. Low side mosfets, all the Sources will commonly connect to BATT- and their Drains will split up for the 3 phase busses. The 3 sets of copper pads in the center of the board are the phase busses. If you look at the TOLL package, Drain is the large copper pad on the back of the mosfet and the many legs are Source (except one for gate).
@@de-bodgery ahhh I'm so silly. Of course since the drain would have the heat sink connection. I'm always thinking about the gate driver design where it is all referenced around HV- and the phase. Thanks for correcting me!
@@GrenYT Typical mosfet gates can't handle more than 20v. Gate drive electronics have to account for this. So for low side, it's easy, just apply 0v or 12v in reference to BATT- and the mosfets turn on and off just fine. High side mosfets reference the ever changing pack voltage so they can "pretend" to reference a maximum of 20v for source to gate. Gate drive electronics need to "know" how far less than the BATT+ voltage is going to shut off the high side mosfets, but not be too little so they float or gate voltage is exceeded. It's a bit more complicated, but modern gate driver IC's handle this. I think it's this detail that you were really thinking about.
Any idea of the price points for the controllers? I don't think you mentioned it, could have missed it. Thanks!
Looks good for a EUC
Is it wrong to just want a mosfet package that gets soldered to a battery busbar and a phase busbar the other side.
Seven Electric Sense? Links?
👍
dont like the tall connectors for phases. i see you need to get above component height, but why not move them to the other side of the board?
TOLT mosfets are 2.5MM thick. Even the added copper on the bottom of the SEVEN 30 which lays flat on the board has to be thinner than that. About all you can really do is lay some copper across the phase busses on the bottom of the board due to thickness constraints of the mosfet package.
Whats the mosfet package? I'm trying to look it up but cant find it
Watch the video...all in there!
So you think your going to be getting one of Torp’s new tp50 motors?
Maybe, but it will a while if someone doesn't donate or lend one to me.
I am all for new VESC variants...especially with higher voltage...but I am still cautious since the 3Shul crap that burned up on me.... and some amateur-isch design choices can be seen here as well... Hope this will improve in the final design of the PCBs
Really... "Amateur-ish design choices"? Care to be specific instead of making an unqualified statement?
😊
I hope it works with 15 pole pairs motor ?!
Why wouldn't it? It's VESC after all.
9:35 I imagine that one day, just like prismatic cells, square electrolytic capacitors will exist and reach better fill factor on the pcb amd enable to even be closer to the fets for improved performance by reducing inductance and resistance...
Electrolytic construction isn't much different from NMC cell construction. NMC can be a jelly role for cylindrical cells or many thin sets of cells stacked together to get a pouch or rectangular cell. Caps in cans are just a jelly role, but they could be made with many thin layers as well so the cap is a rectangle. Ceramic caps are many thin sections of ceramic with aluminum deposited on the ceramic and many layers of that all stacked on top of each other to make a capacitor. Foil sheets and an insulator between them is done already. Thin film caps are made that way in rectangular shells.
@@de-bodgery Yes that's what i'm saying. I work in battery industry. Anode, separator and cathode.. in a roll or a stack.. but for the form factor, the joules of storage capacity per apparent surface on teh pcb would be better if square than round... this woudl allow to stack more joules or to stack then closer to the fets
@@Doctorbasss Yes...well can style electrolytics are abundant and cheap. Probably why you see them so much. I do agree that close as possible to the mosfets is best. I've been following your YT channel for years. Sometimes I watch your content more than others. I don't think I knew you worked on batteries for a living...just as a hobby.
@@de-bodgery I dont share my consultingwork on the internet. Only personnal projects. I indirectly worked on projects for Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, ZERO, Rimac, BRP and many others. Last time I was employe I was developping ultra quick laser welding machine for large EV battery production.
@@Doctorbasss Very cool! So laser welding...was that for the 4680? PRetty sure, what you've done...your battery experience is in high demand.
I'm surprised that the industry seems to be moving towards voltages higher than 100v (nominal) due to the dangers that come with it. Obviously any voltage can be dangerous but 100 becomes deadly quick. I was planning to do an electric motorcycle build and go with the 96v route but I would need something like 1200 phase amps to get the power I want. Torque is the whole benefit of electric in my opinion anyways. I guess it's only a matter of time before PEV motor manufacturers start to make super low KV motors to take advantage of the high voltage controllers coming to the market.
Motors that operate at 131v/32S are already plentiful. 400v motors are pretty common too. There's plenty of options of motors designed with low enough KV's and tested for 400v applications. Never mind all the used motor market from electric or hybrid cars.
I agree that low voltages are nice; but you dont really have much leeway in Kv/Kt actually; in practice there is a pretty hard floor due to the realities of practical motor construction.
Im working right now on a design wound with a split pair of 2x3 phases, with two independent controllers on the same motor; effectively putting the controllers in series and getting double the effective voltage to tame your R and L. This is pretty common in electric aircraft for redundancy, but it also makes for very peppy light EVs while staying under the 75V legal limit for low voltage devices.
@@eelcohoogendoorn8044 Low voltage means high current. Is rather have higher voltage. I run a 6 phase motor on dual controllers myself. They aren't in series. This is effectively 2 motors wound on the same stator in parallel. Where are you located that you can't exceed 75v? This isn't the case in the USA. I can build at whatever voltage I want here.
@@de-bodgery you can exceed 75v anywhere; but in the EU its no longer a low voltage device and different regulations apply. Regulations aside, im also happier with the lower voltage myself, as far as batteries I have to plug and unplug, let along actual work on something.
Since phase currents are independent from all this; the only place the extra current might bother you is in the bus. It depends on the application I suppose but adding an extra mm2 of bus wire usually isnt the issue
@@de-bodgery The two motors wound on the same stator sounds like exactly the thing im talking about btw. Im calling that 'in series' since you have effectively half the L and R to push against per controller while the same phase current limits apply.
just a comment to add some algor1thm food. kind of a starter, who's adding a main course?
Scammer
To whom or what are you referring? I can tell you I'm no scammer. I firmly believe that if its wrong for it to happen to me, it's wrong for me to do it to others! I'm far from perfect at being non-hypocritical, but Its what I try to do with everything! As a result, I'm a strong supporter of Ukraine. I know I wouldn't want to be invaded, destroyed, robbed and killed...so it's equally WRONG to happen to them! If trying to be honest and truthful and true to my word and consistent in how I treat others vs myself makes me a scammer...if that's your implication...then so be it. I have to say, that's got to be the most bizarre definition of a "scammer" I've ever seen! You might want to look up what that word means.
@@de-bodgery I’m not sure why you would bring a political argument to this at all, particularly because the reality of your example is much more complicated than a 2d version you have laid out. Anyhow, I like your channel and find your efforts both useful and informative in other regards. Take care!