A Bizarre F Contrabass Valve Trombone made in Italy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
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Orsi is a company well known for making unusual instruments. I have one of their Ab piccolo clarinets and they also made contrabass saxes, contra clarinets, bass flutes, sarrusophones and many other unusual instruments. Also side note, never use Brasso on silver plated instruments! Even if the plating is almost gone. It is far too aggressive. Blitz silver polish is a much more gentle polish that will leave a much smoother finish.
Thank you - yes, I know that rule, but in this case the tarnish was so high that I needed something far more aggressive.
Contra Clarinets are very common in the US at least
@@BrassPlayr kind of. But they are on the more odd end. Not as rare though.
@@BrassPlayr eh most decent institutions will have one or two but I wouldn’t call them common
When I was young their were just around the corner from where I live here in Milan.
Perhaps the reason it is in F#ish is that is in “old high pitch”. I have a 1920s E flat tuba that is virtually in E natural. Trent - perhaps you could do a video explaining different pitch datums (data) in times past?
I have an old F tuba that plays in F# as well
I thought High Pitch vs Low Pitch was a particularly British thing, but it could be a possibility. Another possibility maybe is that it is actually in G 1885 international pitch wich was A=435hz; however, in 19th century Milan where Orsi was based, Pitch rose to A=451hz, almost the same as British High Pitch. You can never be sure with these old vintage brass. Modern concert pitch A=440hz wasn't standard until 1955.
I agree. I have a tenor horn that's in high pitch, so basically an E half flat tenor horn. The tuning slide needs to be pretty much all the way out for it to be in tune, so I need to get it converted somehow to low pitch so it can be properly played. (However, it does feel very fluffy when played since it had a sonic clean, which it didn't beforehand, despite several holes being patched after the clean)
I think you have 3 contrabass trombones by my count. Glad to see you’re still living the minimalist lifestyle! LOVED this video :)
Oh my god; you started playing, and I was had a moment of, "Wait that's my solo that I was literally playing yesterday!!!"
I think the timbre in F# is still pretty good. For people who don't know, instruments in the same family but different pitch still sound different in color (timbre). The best example fore because I'm a trumpet player, is trumpets, The C sounds quite different than Bb if you listen hard, you can 100% tell when it is an Eb or higher as they tend to have a tone that is quite different.
Trent, band player from Italy here. Orsi (or more properly, Romeo Orsi) is an historical maker in Northern Italy. I believe they make only woodwinds nowadays, but you can find their instruments in pretty much every band - I myself started playing baritone on their stuff, and occasionally used a Bb tuba on band gigs. As far as brass instruments are concerned, decent entry level stuff for basic band use, although usually old and pretty beaten
“in the key of if”
This is the most "neutral" bass brass instrument i've ever heard. It surely would be a very versatile Instrument even in today's environment.
I agree, playing an instrument that is pitched in a quarter or microtone(e.g. F half sharp) is very versatile even if they are out of tune slightly
Wow, you rarely see instruments in the key of "If" anymore!
A vowel shift occurring in modern New Zealand, one of the things that sets the Kiwi accent apart from the Aussies. Shifts occur regularly with English vowels for some reason.
Nothing to do with accent: it's in tune only IF the tuning slide is hanging by a thread
Watch the New Zealand Deck Sealant video. Fush and chups.
It's so weird seeing all the comments being posted just 1-20 min ago for a recommended video. Anyway TH-cam has hit the nail on the head this time
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@@TrentHamiltonWhere can I get one of these?
It has quite a nice sound for such an antique! Nice restoration
Trent, I love your videos, what a neat instrument. I have a valve trombone too and they are gloriously weird instruments. Would love to see more videos of you playing this or any instrument. You have a great tone.
I got one of these sitting around, but with 4 rotary valves, (F to C) made by Lidl in Brno. Been thinking of getting it rebuilt to a cimbasso configuration, then it would actually be of some use in my case
And thus, the modern cimbasso is outed as an updated valve bass trombone in either F or Eb.
... or BBb.
I don't know if you're looking for repair tips, but if so here's one. When a water key breaks like that I finish straightening it, file the joint until it's clean and flush, then silver solder. You get a stronger joint and straight key that way.
Could your trombone be constructed to A+435. Standard pitch for many European instruments prior to 1918?
That would mean it would play flat. It's more likely that it's tuned to A=450 or something similar, which was, as far as I know, also a standard in some places like Italy
Then it would be too low, not too high. But A=452 was also a standard in some places.
Wouldn't tuning to 435Hz rather than 440Hz require pulling the tuning slide out even further?
@@Eidolon2003 Yea. Bad example. But there were several 'tunings' in use at the time that instrument was manufactured. some were as high as 455.
I was going to say the same thing, a lot of brass bands used high pitch until the 1970s
Lovely sound! And very good video.
But I retain my opinion that this is in fact a bass valve trombone, not a contrabass.
Agreed. With only three valves, its lowest note is B-natural before the gap down to pedal F. That's still plenty for much of the Trombone 4 parts in the Italian opera repertoire, but it could never be used to play Otello or Falstaff
@@danieldicesare7365 That's one reason why I like the fingering system with a two-step 3rd valve (swedish fingering/dresden fingering/whathaveyou) - on a 3 valve F instrument you are able to play down to B-flat.
@@Swedbander Not really. Even with the valves tuned slightly flat, you will still be a quarter tone off with all 3 down. 1-2-3 is sharp as heck normally. With a 2 step 3rd, 1-3 is just as sharp as 1-2-3 was, and 1-2-3 is now basically unusable.
I could be wrong here, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the water key cracked because you immediately dipped it into cool water after heating it. Doing this hardens the metal instead of softening it. Allowing it to cool gradually *should've* softened it. You did a great job repairing it regardless, better than I ever could've done.
Brass doesn't quench harden like steel does.
What are valve trombones for? I think it’s the beauty that the slide brings that is so great to me
Agility and speed. Think of a bass trumpet (basically a trumpet shaped valve bone) or a hypothetical contrabass trumpet. I can think of some fun uses for valve trombones.
Though I agree, the beauty of the slide is irreplaceable
Also for a trumpeter to easily double on a trombone?
There are a number of situations where a slide isn't a great idea. Historically, most players preferred Valve Trombones for marching or playing on horseback, and that's probably what this was made to do. Another far more dire situation is playing in a pit orchestra. There may literally not be enough room for a slide, so valves it is. Compared to a slide Trombone in the same key, this compact valved design would be a massive convenience!
@@Markworth true
Trombone timbre/tone color, with the dexterity of valves. Or, for a brass player who never developed slide technique, but needs to blend with a trombone section, so baritone wouldn't do.
7:58 he plays is right here (it’s beautiful)
This video, along with others, has been greatly enhanced by your recently found brass instrument repair skills. (edit) Should have mentioned also that you're looking fit these days.
How stuffy is it to play? I would love to get your review of how it is sound (particularly the silver values in such a low register). My guess is based off of the off balance weight of the bell led to the finger hook being bent. Is there any info on the company that made it? Since it is Italian made, I'd love to hear the Florentiner march on it given the approximate year made.
A440 tuning didn't become an international standard until about 1940. So this horn may have been built to a different standard, hence the huge adjustment to the tuning slide....
What a fun instrument! Could you give bell diameter and bore measurements please.
Very interesting instrument--and a great presentation of it.
Came for the horn, stayed for the addition to my vocabulary!
I love your channel. I’d like to see you comment more on how the instrument responds after you demonstrate it. Is it stuffy? Are there notes that seem out of tune? Does have a lot of resistance? How does it rate with modern equivalents. Stuff like that.
The instrument is very stuffy, but other than that it's not too bad, and on par with anything else I've played of the same age.
Sounds just beautiful!
It sounds pretty nice, has a mellow tone to it. How is it to play?
How did the water key get so extremely bent without distorting the hinge and surrounding tubing ? Couldn't the spring be made more forceful by unwinding it a little ?
Prof. Romeo Orsi of Milan, Italy is still a going concern. They will produce instruments from a list of models they provide.
That is so cool
I believe silver plating valves of instruments of that vintage was more or less the practice. I think copper or nickel plating is relatively modern.
Perhaps all my instruments of a similar vintage just have no plating left on the valves?
@@TrentHamilton yes, that, or maybe they didn't have the valves rebuilt. I'm not an expert but I think the valve rebuild technique around the 10s, 20, 30, or 40s was to silver plate them.
The color of those isn't silver. I don't think those valves are plated at all. The ports look brass. My guess is that's a nickel silver piston with no plating. There was a lot of experimentation with alloys for pistons in that era so it's possible it's something else entirely. If it was a plated the ports would match the color of the body. Silver plating would never happen on a valve, it's too soft and would wear off almost instantly.
@@squabok nope. I've seen silver plated rotary valves at least first hand. Rare, yes. But they exist!
I WANT SOMEONE TO GIVE ME CONTRABASS VALVE TROMBONES
That's basically what is now marketed as a Cimbasso.
That is amazing!
Don't expect A=440hz with an instrument this old.
This Instrument Sounds so good hold my beer
the design is weirdly similar to those cheap India valve trombone on Ebay.
Where's Trent? It's a voice I recognise, but he seems to have dragged in his younger brother!
Jeez, Trent, your thumb! 😱
Ouch!
I love it
EEF
yes
lovely
Interesting
👍
Italian pronounces all vowels individually (except ci+Vowel/gi+Vowel), so it's O-A-ZI :)
EDIT: oh damn, when you said "a" you meant "R", lmao. Then it's OR-SI, not O-O-ZI
"Beant"
Ahh, got to love the abysmal Italian build quality.
That's funny. I live in Italy. I think it's because they go to work late everyday. Stop work at twelve for lunch and don't go back to work till four thirty and they're usually late again. Very laid back, relaxed additude here. Especially in Southern Italy. And of course, they drank wine with their lunch. I like it because I'm in no hurry.
Anyone can give me trumpet...
Use flux
Day four of asking for a normaphone informational video
Let's make a deal - you send me a normaphone, I'll do a video on it.
@@TrentHamilton if I could find one I would, they’re like on the top of my list of instruments I want, but if I did find one I might just keep it
that thing is quite odd, also how is your pipe organ coming along
I understand these are quite rare but I am looking for any bass/contrabass valve trombone if anyone has any recommendations where to look please just reply. Thanks. EDIT: Other instruments than the cimbasso
This sounds more like an old F bass than a contrabass. Small bore basses used to be in G, F, or Eb, obviously the UK and Commonwealth preferred the G instrument. Afaik in France the Eb was most common until they started using a section of 3 tenors, and F was most common in Germany and countries easy of there (hence the Bartok gliss)
Yeah, I had a similar line of thought, but this isn't a small bore, which I why I'm thinking contrabass rather than bass. The definitive answer is that it is whatever the manufacturer called it, but I can't find any information from them either.
I don't think you managed to get a shot of the full instrument a single time. Just a little tip for you there! Would be nice to include in the beginning or something.
I want to make something similar
Excellent! But, Trent - I REALLY want to know how you lost all that weight!
I really like these repair videos.
Perhaps the reason it needs so much tuning slide is that there’s actually trombone missing somewhere? Like another section of tubing has been lost to history? Pretty weird.
That has a great sound. Love it.
Is this a relative to the cimbasso?
Pretty much. The cimbasso is more or less a contrabass valve trombone and this is a bass valve trombone.
Good thought, with a more compact wrap?
I had the great fortune of playing a F & Bb 4 rotor valve version made by Cerveny and the where fun & FANTASTIC 👍
I thought that the inspection camera was going to give us a look inside the longer bits of tubing to demonstrate how bad it was in there. Perhaps its just as well that we didn't see that.
G-flat. not F
If you don't like it, I'll take it! Tres Cool !
What happened to your weight?
A fleet of tapeworms
I’m confused. Why is an f tuba considered a bass tuba but an f trombone considered contrabass?
I think because the name of bass trombone was already taken by the Bb with F trigger; instrument families describe themselves as soprano, alto, tenor, bass etc. relative to each other, rather than to an objective standard of pitch i.e. A tenor saxophone has a higher range than a tenor trombone, with a tenor recorder being even higher than that. Bass trumpet has the exact same range as tenor trombone as an even clearer example.
@@manracmolactrac I would agree if the BBb contrabass trombone didn’t exist
This is not a contrabass, it is a bass. It lacks the additional valves needed to cover the whole contrabass range. The contemporary bass-contrabass trombones in F is a modern invention.
@@Swedbander
Yes, this a bass trombone. A valved version of the old straight F bass slide trombone that had no valves and used a handle to reach sixth and seventh positions.
I would love a superbone but i think the mental gymnastics to combine valves with the nuances of slide position in a truly mind blowing number of combinations would fry the few brain cells I have left.