Thanks for making this. I have been playing bass trombone for about thirty years now and have only really played around with a couple of contras in the past. They are interesting and fun to play but not something that I see as having a good return on investment for most professional bass trombonists. I truly wish there were more opportunities to play them.
Thank you for your presentation. I appreciate your sage advice concerning just getting one to mess around with. I participated in ITW events in Nashville in the middle 80's when Keith Brown was running the large workshop bones choir. There would be two contras in the group and in that setting it was awesome. Not many 70 plus member trombone choirs around to take advantage of them.
I know personally a very good bass trombone player who is also a tuba player. He is considering buying a contrabass trombone as an alternative to buying a new tuba. However, these contrabass horns are so expensive, that they're not much cheaper than tubas. Hard to see me getting one--seems very niche...but interesting video...
MANY moons ago in high school, we used to play an arrangement [in stage band] of "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man" which featured the bass trombone. I was never really satisfied with the sound I got - even with a two-valved Bach bass. The F contrabass would've been ideal in that situation. You might have mentioned that the F contra might be a suitable instrument for most of Verdi in the event that a Cimbasso can't be had. (Verdi is documented as saying he preferred a 4-trombone sound over the more conventional 3 trombones + tuba combination.)
Those low notes are huge sounding on both of the contras. Have you had a chance to play a BBb contrabass which had two valves? I guess that would help fill in the gaps in the lowest range. I hope you have had a few gigs on the F contrabass since this video, because it sounds fantastic!
So coming here I guess I’m in the minority. I have a Miraphone BBb contrabass. Everything Aidan said is absolutely correct in terms of the difficulty of the instrument. But as I’ve put more work into the horn I’ve noticed it has a much deeper and more resonant sound(especially in the lower register). In a trombone choir this unique tone color from the BBb contra fills out the bottom much more than the F contra does. I can relate this to playing a 3/4 sized upright bass vs playing a full sized upright. Although the notes are similar the timbre is much deeper and more resonant with the full size bass. Since the BBb has more tubing and often wider tubing than it’s f counterpart, it therefore can get a much more resonant sound while still keeping the trombone timbre. As far as the playability goes, it is much more difficult to play on a BBb contra, but like any instrument consistent practice reaps rewards. I’ve owned mine for about a year and I eventually was able to turn it into a very playable instrument. I’m not saying one is better than the other, imo they are just very different from eachother.
There are a few enjoyers of the BBb- I'm glad there are! More Fs for the rest of us :P My Laetzsch has a bore size in between the dual bores of the Miraphone, so it's really not appreciably smaller in that area... plus a larger bell!
I'm a tuba player primarily and I'm looking at a Bb contra as something to mess around with. The slotting problem on the miraphone is on all miraphone tubas and you get used to it.
In range? Not particularly. Contra is much worse above C above the staff, but I can play it up to F above the staff without a ton of trouble. The contra does have real notes below double pedal Bb, but they aren't much use.
Thank you so much!! I think F Contrabass Trombone has more clear better sound!! And the musician, who plays this type, has more control of the air than BBb Contra.
Thank you for the honest video! I recently purchased an F cimbasso and it’s kind of the same story, I’ve played it for fun but I doubt there’ll be many professional opportunities outside of an opera pit…I still love the thing though, I bought it because I enjoy playing it. I’m curious, what mouthpiece do you use for your F contra? Those are some fat tones down there.
Hi Aidan. I’m looking at investing in a contra and was wondering if you’d recommend the Miraphone? I know you already made a video on it, but I was wondering if you feel it’s worth the investment. My ideal instrument would be a Thein Universal, but they’re simply too expensive for me, and even $10,000 for a Miraphone is a lot. Any advice?
I'd recommend against the Miraphone simply because it's in BBb. They are nice instruments, pretty well made, but they are just not as good as an equivalent F instrument. I'd look into the Markus Leuchter or Voight contras.
Was wondering if their was an Eb contrabass trombone as I've been thinking of trying out alto trombone (I primarily play tuba and euphonium then a bit of trombone on the side, btw) and noticed a lack of other trombones in the same pitch. I've seen Eb cimbasso, however, which I guess is why the contrabass trombones aren't used as much nowadays when you could get a similar sound by having a tuba player switch to a F or Eb cimbasso when needed.
There were a few Eb contras made by Conn around the turn of the century, but they haven't been made since then, and those ones are hard to find now. Mike Corrigan at BAC had one, might still have it.
Dick Tyack had Thein Eb-contrabass as double slider. In modern catalogues of factories, only Eb-cimbasso exist in production. In other hands some F models with handle and 7 positions F also operate Eb/D valve ,plus BBb valve. And it can cover 99% of Tyack's model.
So, as a tuba player who is comfortable with bigger BBb instruments, and also as a horn player familiar with F fingerings/partials, which would you recommend, considering that i would be playing mostly for fun/maybe in a marching band setting if my directors allow it.
Wait horn as in French horn or horns in f. If I'm understanding correctly that you want March with a contrabass trombone. I would say just don't drop it, the miraphone is about 10k I believe, and It requires a bit more air then a 4/4 Bb tuba. However you did say that your familiar with large Bb instruments (5/4 or 6/4 I'm guessing) so I would say trying it maybe. I would want to definitely try as a tuba and bass bone player.
Played a miraphone BBb for Intergrales (Varese) and it was near impossible to get it to speak well. Got through it, but I am happy to never play a BBb again. Have since tried an F , it's much easier to sound good on.
the F is in F/D/BBb/AAb. Bell diameter is 10.5 inches (I think... I've never measured it! Bore is something around bass size, .562 I think. Never measured it either. Right now I am playing it with a Bach 30CB, in the this video I was on a Josef Klier KB2.5.
What is the attachment you put on the trombone while you are playing it? Seems like something to help take off the weight but I can't seem to find it as I don't know what it is called.
What key do the valves put the F contra into? How many slide positions does each valve combination have? Recently interested in the contra as a composer.
On my instrument, the open horn is in F (of course), with 4 usable positions. First valve, the thumb trigger, puts the horn in D, with 4 usable positions. Second valve, the middle finger trigger, puts the horn in Bb below that, with 3 usable positions. Together, the valves are Ab, with 3 usable positions. I say usable, because the slide is longer than can be reached with normal arms- some modern contras have another position available for the player.
If you want it to be played by anything other than a professional orchestra, probably. F contras are few and far between, even in the professional world.
Haha no! I got offered to teach the baritones but I couldn't make that kind of time in the summer. If they could put something together like the Bluecoats alumni I would be all for it.
Congrats on not dropping it while filming this video.
Maybe I should have. Millions of views lost...
True. That probably generated the most money anyone has ever made with a contra.
@@bassclef251 The real genius!
Trent Hamilton 2.0
Trent
Thanks for making this. I have been playing bass trombone for about thirty years now and have only really played around with a couple of contras in the past. They are interesting and fun to play but not something that I see as having a good return on investment for most professional bass trombonists. I truly wish there were more opportunities to play them.
Exactly! I still haven't played mine for money. Only many times for fun!
Thank you for your presentation. I appreciate your sage advice concerning just getting one to mess around with. I participated in ITW events in Nashville in the middle 80's when Keith Brown was running the large workshop bones choir. There would be two contras in the group and in that setting it was awesome. Not many 70 plus member trombone choirs around to take advantage of them.
They can be useful in octets, but even then I find myself using probably 80% bass 20% contra at most.
I do love the sound of that F contra
I like the way the camera is angled so when you play the instument, the end of the trombone replaces your head.
Maybe the true definition of a nerd isn’t someone who owns their own alto clarinet. Maybe it’s someone that owns multiple contrabass trombones
Thankfully not me!!
I know personally a very good bass trombone player who is also a tuba player. He is considering buying a contrabass trombone as an alternative to buying a new tuba. However, these contrabass horns are so expensive, that they're not much cheaper than tubas. Hard to see me getting one--seems very niche...but interesting video...
A friend of mine did own two two-stroke Saab automobiles....
Thanks for the post.
I think BBb insttruments are actually 18 feet long
You are correct, and I am wrong! Bb is 9, F is 12, BBb is 18. I'm just a derp.
MANY moons ago in high school, we used to play an arrangement [in stage band] of "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man" which featured the bass trombone. I was never really satisfied with the sound I got - even with a two-valved Bach bass. The F contrabass would've been ideal in that situation. You might have mentioned that the F contra might be a suitable instrument for most of Verdi in the event that a Cimbasso can't be had. (Verdi is documented as saying he preferred a 4-trombone sound over the more conventional 3 trombones + tuba combination.)
Those low notes are huge sounding on both of the contras. Have you had a chance to play a BBb contrabass which had two valves? I guess that would help fill in the gaps in the lowest range. I hope you have had a few gigs on the F contrabass since this video, because it sounds fantastic!
Haha not even one! I do have a much nicer contra now, though.
So coming here I guess I’m in the minority. I have a Miraphone BBb contrabass. Everything Aidan said is absolutely correct in terms of the difficulty of the instrument. But as I’ve put more work into the horn I’ve noticed it has a much deeper and more resonant sound(especially in the lower register). In a trombone choir this unique tone color from the BBb contra fills out the bottom much more than the F contra does. I can relate this to playing a 3/4 sized upright bass vs playing a full sized upright. Although the notes are similar the timbre is much deeper and more resonant with the full size bass. Since the BBb has more tubing and often wider tubing than it’s f counterpart, it therefore can get a much more resonant sound while still keeping the trombone timbre. As far as the playability goes, it is much more difficult to play on a BBb contra, but like any instrument consistent practice reaps rewards. I’ve owned mine for about a year and I eventually was able to turn it into a very playable instrument. I’m not saying one is better than the other, imo they are just very different from eachother.
There are a few enjoyers of the BBb- I'm glad there are! More Fs for the rest of us :P
My Laetzsch has a bore size in between the dual bores of the Miraphone, so it's really not appreciably smaller in that area... plus a larger bell!
Ahh Melba Liston, very good album
I'm a tuba player primarily and I'm looking at a Bb contra as something to mess around with. The slotting problem on the miraphone is on all miraphone tubas and you get used to it.
It's not really a tuba issue- That I'm familiar with. The contra is another beast altogether and really just not fun!
In your experience is there any/much difference in the range of an F/D/Db/BBb contrabass (if i'm not mistaken) and a Bb/G/Gb/D bass trombone?
In range? Not particularly. Contra is much worse above C above the staff, but I can play it up to F above the staff without a ton of trouble. The contra does have real notes below double pedal Bb, but they aren't much use.
Thank you so much!! I think F Contrabass Trombone has more clear better sound!! And the musician, who plays this type, has more control of the air than BBb Contra.
Thank you for the honest video! I recently purchased an F cimbasso and it’s kind of the same story, I’ve played it for fun but I doubt there’ll be many professional opportunities outside of an opera pit…I still love the thing though, I bought it because I enjoy playing it.
I’m curious, what mouthpiece do you use for your F contra? Those are some fat tones down there.
At this point it was a Bruno Tilz KB2.5, these days I use a Greg Black CBM with a Doug Elliot rim
I would love to play the trombone, especially that one..
What's stopping you? Lots of trombones out there! This is a good time to learn!
Hi Aidan. I’m looking at investing in a contra and was wondering if you’d recommend the Miraphone? I know you already made a video on it, but I was wondering if you feel it’s worth the investment. My ideal instrument would be a Thein Universal, but they’re simply too expensive for me, and even $10,000 for a Miraphone is a lot. Any advice?
I'd recommend against the Miraphone simply because it's in BBb. They are nice instruments, pretty well made, but they are just not as good as an equivalent F instrument. I'd look into the Markus Leuchter or Voight contras.
Was wondering if their was an Eb contrabass trombone as I've been thinking of trying out alto trombone (I primarily play tuba and euphonium then a bit of trombone on the side, btw) and noticed a lack of other trombones in the same pitch. I've seen Eb cimbasso, however, which I guess is why the contrabass trombones aren't used as much nowadays when you could get a similar sound by having a tuba player switch to a F or Eb cimbasso when needed.
Nope, the Eb bass died out a couple centuries ago- F is really the only contra key until CC or BBb.
There were a few Eb contras made by Conn around the turn of the century, but they haven't been made since then, and those ones are hard to find now. Mike Corrigan at BAC had one, might still have it.
Dick Tyack had Thein Eb-contrabass as double slider.
In modern catalogues of factories, only Eb-cimbasso exist in production. In other hands some F models with handle and 7 positions F also operate Eb/D valve ,plus BBb valve. And it can cover 99% of Tyack's model.
At least you didn't drop it
So, as a tuba player who is comfortable with bigger BBb instruments, and also as a horn player familiar with F fingerings/partials, which would you recommend, considering that i would be playing mostly for fun/maybe in a marching band setting if my directors allow it.
Wait horn as in French horn or horns in f. If I'm understanding correctly that you want March with a contrabass trombone. I would say just don't drop it, the miraphone is about 10k I believe, and It requires a bit more air then a 4/4 Bb tuba. However you did say that your familiar with large Bb instruments (5/4 or 6/4 I'm guessing) so I would say trying it maybe. I would want to definitely try as a tuba and bass bone player.
@@trentpearrow6371 yeah im a french horn player by trade, but i do a fair amount of tuba playing as well.
Played a miraphone BBb for Intergrales (Varese) and it was near impossible to get it to speak well. Got through it, but I am happy to never play a BBb again. Have since tried an F , it's much easier to sound good on.
My big question, how many positions does it have? What are the valve tunnings? Bell diameter? Mouthpiece? Bore?Thanks.
the F is in F/D/BBb/AAb. Bell diameter is 10.5 inches (I think... I've never measured it! Bore is something around bass size, .562 I think. Never measured it either. Right now I am playing it with a Bach 30CB, in the this video I was on a Josef Klier KB2.5.
Hi! What is that stand you have, called to hold the instrument?
Ergobone. I couldn't play without it!
What is the attachment you put on the trombone while you are playing it? Seems like something to help take off the weight but I can't seem to find it as I don't know what it is called.
Ergobone
What key do the valves put the F contra into? How many slide positions does each valve combination have? Recently interested in the contra as a composer.
On my instrument, the open horn is in F (of course), with 4 usable positions. First valve, the thumb trigger, puts the horn in D, with 4 usable positions. Second valve, the middle finger trigger, puts the horn in Bb below that, with 3 usable positions. Together, the valves are Ab, with 3 usable positions.
I say usable, because the slide is longer than can be reached with normal arms- some modern contras have another position available for the player.
@@AidanRitchie Thank you very much for this. This info is rare to find out there in the internet.
No problem! The other common tuning system is F/Db/C/A.
@@AidanRitchie Thank you for the additional info! Info like this is hard to find. Time to start brewing ideas for them pieces
Nice Kitty in the background!!
The best!
Would I be considered crazy for including a part for F Contrabass in a large Orchestral piece?
If you want it to be played by anything other than a professional orchestra, probably. F contras are few and far between, even in the professional world.
Wait so how long are they with the slide all the way in
F contra is 12 feet, BBb is 18.
As a tuba player, I wonder if I'd have an easier time controlling the Bb contra.
I've heard tubists on them- based on that, I'd say no.
Where did you aquire your contras
Got my F from a friend that was selling, and this BBb was a local high school's.
@@AidanRitchie i don’t understand what highschool has a contra especially a Bb because their a lot more expensive i believe
why would a hs need a contra
Did you march Troopers?
Yes, 2008-2011.
@@AidanRitchie Cool! Doing the alumni corps?
Haha no! I got offered to teach the baritones but I couldn't make that kind of time in the summer. If they could put something together like the Bluecoats alumni I would be all for it.
i play Bb tenor
Me too
How is it superior to a tuba?
It's a different instrument, it's not going to be "superior," just different!
LOCK YOUR SLIDE
Can't! My F contra has no slide lock.