“I find your lack of faith disturbing” is easily my favorite line in the entire star wars universe. In one line, the major antagonist of the story sets up the following ideas: A.) Belief in the force is religious in nature. B.) Not everyone in the universe buys into it. C.) The religion crosses the boundary between the “good guys” and the “bad guys” D.) Using the force requires faith in its power, whether you’re on the dark side of light side of the force. E.) Despite the fact that it’s ancient and some feel that it’s outdated, it is incredibly real and absolutely relevant to the world of the story.
In my opinion, this line paints Vader as some cardinal of a very powerful, corrupt and evil Church, but a Church with a benevolent facade; some high-ranking cosmic Dark!Catholic priest (that would make the Emperor kinda like the Pope). Imagine a story like Star Wars but in the real world with Dark!Catholics having magical power and corrupting Europe to their ways, and Luke leading a wiccan pagan rebellion against it...
@Silent Knight In my eyes, he's more like to be of Cathar "Good Christians", than of Protestantism =) With those alternate!Catholics believing in jealous, angry and abusive deity of Old Testament, and those alternative!Cathars ditching him for the loving deity of New Testament. Come to think of it: isn't Old Testament deity a top-notch Sith, with all that passion, anger and jealousy of his? =)
It also could be a comment on disbelief in general, even in a very tangible and real (in universe) force that a moment later was choking him. It also demonstrates that the admiralty of the Galactic Empire doesn't necessarily have respect for their emperor, just the might of the Empire that isn't contingent on The Force.
@ckl Well remember, the Emperor took over the galaxy through political scheming and democratic election. Not everyone knows he is a Sith, so they probably respect him, they just don’t respect Vader the blunt instrument of the Emperor’s power and they don’t respect him because they see him as no different from a Jedi who is on their side. They wouldn’t respect the Force because all the Jedi are dead, and most people would never have seen it being used. Also they know it is a tool of the Jedi, and if they were so powerful then why are they all dead?
There is just one rule you cannot break, if you have a sky god, they have to fight to fight a giant serpent. No complaining, everyone else follows the rule, even Tolkien.
9:10 To use a monotheistic example, this is actually how the Egyptian pantheon came to be. One city state expanded and conquered other settlements with existing religious beliefs, so the compromise off was “you’re not joining of your free will, but we’ll throw ya a bone and let you keep your god.” My favorite example of this is the Fayyum, a lake city with a large population of Crocodiles. These crocodiles are revered as guardians of the river, and this river needed protection as it was critical to the survival of that people group. Thus their regional god, Sobek, is a warrior who is depicted through crocodiles. These folks literally worshipped crocodiles as guardians of the river. By incorporating this religion into the existing pantheon, you secure both their loyalties and a warrior group. The drawback here is that the strong regional identity can ultimately backfire.
religion doesn't necessarily have to be focused on a "god" or higher power for it to still be used. for example, fascist or dictatorial governments will often use religious-like structures and rituals to keep everyone in line, making sure you show devotion to the great leader. and, like the star wars example from the start, the jedi and sith don't worship the force, and the force is not a god. but they are both considered "religions" within the story, because they follow strict moral codes that come into conflict from how the force should be used.
I think Star Wars is a fun series, but the Force is so complicated... it's spoken of as having a WILL, which is an aspect of personalities (boulders don't have volition), but also described as impersonal, so... weird.
Mentioning the Force is an interesting point because it is based on Buddhim and Daoism. Classical Buddhism is essentially atheistic. Later developments added gods, demons, etc. in some forms of Buddhism, but they are all in the same boat as humans, stuck in samsara(death/rebirth/death) so there is no point in getting too involved with them. Daoism is complicated in its view of gods (and everything else). There are spiritual forces and the Eight Immortals etc., but the Daoist isn't so much about following deities as he is in following the Dao philosophy. Confucianism is also called a religion and a philosophy. Lip service is paid to the Court of Heaven, but it is more about a way of life and a social/ethical theory than anything else. Of course, popular Chinese religion often inserts various local spirits and gods, but the more formal, classical versions of these religions/philosophies have never been too concerned with deities.
Mark Murphy The Force in Star Wars (in Legends a least) can be divided into three parts, each embodied by the Ones (with a fourth that tacked itself on). These are the Daughter (Ashla), who embodies the light side, the Son (Bogan) who embodies the dark side, and the Father who embodies the universal force (it's basically the neutral side that keeps the other two in balance). The fourth is the Mother (Abeloth) who embodies chaos to the order of the Father. Abeloth was locked away by the other three after she came to be and destroyed their empire, ever since they just kinda hanged out on Mortis until they all died in the Clone Wars, which eventually lead to Abeloth getting free (whether any of the four will stay dead after they were all killed is not quite clear). The Daughter as the light side essentially represented creation and peace, the Son destruction and war, while the Father was balance and order. This is most basically represented by what the followers of their different parts of the Force could do (they were largely forgotten by the galaxy so they didn't have worshipers per se but different groups did call upon the sides of the Force they embodied). The light side users were best at healing, dark side users were the best at destruction, and while their were never really any pure universal force user, the members on each side that used it could do thing like see into the future or past and even affect things there to some extent. The will of the Force seems mostly how the Triad feels something should happen (mostly being the Father). Oh, and Abeloth kinda just represents chaos and annihilation, if she stays in one place long enough reality kinda gets a little warped. There's also the Font of Power and Pool of Knowledge where the power and knowledge of the universe take shape (these are how Abeloth became part of the Ones), there's also a lake filled all the souls of the dead, and a dagger/sword thing that can actually harm and kill the Ones. The Ones were apparently known as the Celestials during the time of their empire. The Force itself exists whether or not the Ones exist but they kinda gave it shape and defined it and it's will. The interpretations of the Force that so many different groups have in Star Wars is how they came to see it, since the Ones had long ago just disappeared. That's kinda a basic run through the reasons the Force is divided into sides and has a "Will" in Star Wars legends.
I personally think that The Force in Star Wars is more based off of Zoroastrianism than either Daoism or Buddhism because, while both of the latter two focus on the neccisity of having both Light AND Darkness in your life in order to achieve true balance. Zoroastrianism on the other hand teaches that The Light is entirely good, while The Darkness is entirely evil, which seems to be more in line with the theological philosophy of The Jedi Order.
Dustwarewolf 55 That is the view of the Jedi Order, but (in Legends mostly) most Star Wars stories show how they came to have that philosophy and how narrow minded, hypocritical, and weak it made them, since the dark side wasn't necessarily evil, it's just that most if not all of it's followers were at least seen as such by everyone else, because it's the side of aggression, power, and fury, mostly being predisposed to destruction, with it's use generally having a rapidly corrupting effect on it's users. Not all dark side users are evil, and the dark side itself isn't evil, it's just very, very dark. Though admittedly the original trilogy does give the impression that you gave, The Force was based of Buddhist and Doaist beliefs originally.
@@lesteryaytrippy7282 it's working pretty well so far. divided them into big primordial gods (the world, wheel of fortune, and death) major gods (most of them) and archangels (high priestess, hierophant, justice, hanged man) for the rest, it kinda writes itself.
After ten minutes I took this from the video: "Religion is complicated" Edit: Great video, loved the very well explained aspects of each point. Learning about Worldbuilding is probably my favourite series on this channel
Yeah. Religion is essentially never a simple or easy to explain subject. Any fictional religion that sounds like it's simple, even if it had an entire doctrine consisting of one paragraph in the present language? That is a lie. The kind of doctrinal disputes like "Is Jesus God? Separate from God? A part of God?" or "What parts of the Bible are canon?" from the Abrahamic faiths history give solid examples of how divisive it gets. In general Religion serves one of two roles in stories: as an element of some actual plot point. (IE: members of X faith use this particular spice in their dishes, victim had eaten this spice hours before death.) in which case you can generally avoid having to detail it much if it doesn't show up again... Or it's a part of the setting. If it's the latter, it is only right to flesh out that religion properly. Where things get truly thorny is settings where you have a real religion (or sect their of) around, especially when it needs to deal with an out of context for real life thing. As an example: How do good Catholic people deal with finding out they are Wizards in the setting of Harry Potter? Is there a sect of Catholicism that found a way to reconcile the texts and doctrine with this new reality? Is there a 'Wizard-Pope' and whole other set of doctrinal works specifically removed from the rest of the religion (IE the accurate to real life one) because they addressed this? It can be fascinating to consider, but it's an extremely touchy subject compared to a religion built from whole cloth, even if it borrows major elements from real religions. (For example, the faiths of the Kushan people in the setting of Homeworld, which have pilgrimage to holy sites as a major component.)
I love how Lovecraft made his Mythos. There are the gods of the earth that we all know, above them there are the Other Gods, above them there are the Outer Gods, and there are also other groups of Gods like the Ancient Ones. So there are many groups which coexist, part of the same pantheon, yet markedly separate ones, and even the Gods have their own Gods which they worship, and above all that there is Azathoth, who is the “One God”, but is an Idiot God, mindless and uncaring, and all it does is sleep and dream, helping no one, caring about nothing, but is nonetheless the absolute creator of all things.
@@theunreadyone No it doesn't. If you think you have any idea on how Pantheons work, You don't. Because there is no real definition of what a god is. Some Religions portray gods as nature personified, or alegories (Norse). Some as powerful people with their own fellings and thoughts (Greek). Some as a hibryd of those (Egiptian). Some have gods as Living elements, only vessels the elements use as a form, While some as just rulers of forces, Where the fire god has authority over fire no more, than a mortal king over steel.
@@d4n737 I don’t understand your point. If a god is meant to represent something, and that thing fades away, people will forget about it, stop worshipping the god, and the god will fade away too. Is that not how it would go? I won’t pretend to be an expert on pantheons, but I see no reason why this wouldn’t happen
@@theunreadyone Ah, you mean sociologically. if if it's the other way around, then, well People are stubborn. If a god partons a celebration, and they no longer celebrate it, they're still gonna believe in the god, Maybe under a diffrent name, domain, etc.. Cultures change and gods will be depicted as patrons of diffrent things over time.
I found the Dark Souls games have a very interesting way of presenting mythos/religion. While most information is provided through item descriptions, there's still a TON of details hidden in things like the level design, enemy behavior, and even the covenant system. It's done in a way to show the players that the world was rich with culture, ideals, and beliefs LONG before their character arrived. And even though this is a game with an unconventional narrative, I still find it to be a really solid example of worldbuilding.
19:45 there's an interesting book called City of Stairs which really explores this idea. A central plot point is that there was a vicious cycle where extremist followers would exaggerate certain traits of their gods, their reinterpretation would affect the gods, moderate followers would adjust their views to match the gods' new behavior, and then new subgroups would form which are extremist relative to the new normal.
City of Stairs, the subsequent novels, the new Founders Trilogy, and pretty much anything by Robert Jackson Bennett is simply incredible, beautiful, and awe-inspiring.
For a good example of how "RELIGION IS COMPLICATED" in fiction, check out the comic book series 'The Mice Templar'. The protagonist mice worship a deity named Wotan and have religious beliefs and institutions very similar to Judaism and Christianity, but are bitterly divided between conservative and liberal interpretations of the same core tenets, which is further complicated by character development as individual characters on both sides often begin gravitating towards more moderate or hard-line views as the story progresses. The antagonist rats, bats, and weasels all theoretically worship a being named Donas who has strong parallels to the Satan, but go about it very differently. The rats have an organized caste of priests called druids who conduct large-scale rituals, while the bats revere Donas and hate Wotan but have no religious institutions (perhaps due to their race's opinion of themselves as semi-divine), and the weasels clearly value their political goals over any religious scruples- at one point openly threatening to switch sides and join the Templar if the druids attempt a theocratic coup.
I accidentally created a Pantheon in my story based around aspects of reality like life death time and space. I didn't realize the way I described them was like God's until after the fact
Dragon Age has one of the best religious systems I've seen in a work of fiction. There are essentially three prominent, well fleshed out religions in its world that affect how the characters act, and how politics operate, alongside a few other minor, but equally interesting religions.
I'd say the Qun is Islam to be honest. The Qun has none of the 330 000 different gods or belief in re-encarnation or a philosophy of pacifism in the face of certain agressions.
My favourite religion has to be the worship of the god Emperor from warhammer 40k. I think it is interesting how an atheist ended up as a god after failing in his crusade to med religion on a galaxy whide scale. By the way Hello Future me i recommend the Horus herasy book series if you like Dune.
In all honesty, the Chaos Pantheon (and by extension, the eldar pantheon) was always more fascinating to me. The idea that your actions , emotions and thoughts create genuine deities without you even realising their extent, and these in turn manipulate and feed off the collective consciousness is mythopoeia at its purist. It also seems fitting that our worst hell is the one we make for ourselves, hence the Big4
@@343-penitentnarrator8 The thing is in the backstory of the franchise it's made clear that they wouldn't have existed if two Godlike forces hadn't altered the balance of the warp. In doing so they twisted it behind belief.
@@Xo-3130 Fair point, but ultimately it would have happened regardless. Sure the War in Heaven kick-started the turmoil, but the nature of the warp, and the sentient beings of the universe, means something like the chaos pantheon would have eventually occurred regardless. Don't forget that the big four encompass positive emotions as well as negative or base ones. Honor for Khorne, Vitality for Nurgle, Joy for Slaanesh, Hope for Tzeentch, etc. Some are even shared between them. The idea is that the baser emotions of rage, excess, fear of death and ambition tend to be stronger, and hence coalesce stronger in the warp. This may be because these are primal emotions. The writers are therefore pragmatic, cynics or just as likely just thought it would be more fun for the setting, (which it is). If you want a more "realistic", or balanced pantheon, in the same settings, check out the old eldar religion, or their Warhammer fantasy elf counterparts, where the gods are\were deliberately crafted by them to reflect all the aspects of their nature, and hence give them the power to advance and further their society. It's more akin to the Greek or Norse mythology as a result
@@Archone666 Well, the Eldar only strictly created one bit of crap by birthing Slaanesh through incessant, unrepentant murder fucking. You can perhaps lay the enslaver plague on their door but that's really the turmoil created by the near apocalyptic War in Heaven and the nature of the Warp which, as per my previous post, would have caused the issues with the warp seen in "modern" 40k regardless. To answer your question, I suppose in theory it is, but would require either galactic genocide (to destroy Chaos' source of food) or , even more unlikely, a herculean effort of will by every member of every species, 24 hrs a day, to essentially think them away and colossal amounts of self discipline to contain their baser emotions or relegate them to some other parts of their psyche. The Crafteworld and early eldar, plus the interex, tau (by sheer luck of psychology) and a handful of other civilizations have managed this or something similar and all it does is allow them to deal with chaos and possibly give them an actual afterlife (actually no longer possible, in retrospect). To get every species to do this, let alone just humanity, is borderline impossible. Sapient nature just doesn't seem to work that way.
Ouroboros_13 there was an insanely powerful demon lord back in the 2nd edition named Mishka the Wolf-Spider, the first demon prince, way more powerful than Demogorgon
im mortal THAT'S IT. I'm OFFICIALLY making Mishka a little bear spirit/deity in my setting. Fuck it, I'm doing it. It has to be done! There's no other option!
My main gripe with many fictional polytheisms is how they fail to truly understand what that means. So often does it become monotheism, particularly Christianity with its ecclesiastic hierarchy and churches and cathedrals, but with more Gods. That is not how natural polytheisms usually work, even ones like Roman polytheism which have a relatively centralised system with the Pontifex Maximus on top. Even then, temples in other places will still have their own traditions, their own myths or variations thereof,... Priests also do not necessarily have to be religious experts, the main body of priests throughout ancient Hellas were elected officials elected to serve as a priest on behalf of the community, without needing to be an expert on theology beyond what they needed to know to do their jobs. Polytheisms also do not really tend towards exclusivism as monotheism does. After all, if we already have this many Gods, who are we to deny the existence of other people's Gods? Gods can be adopted through contact with other peoples, Gods may decrease in significance or influence, etc. There's also no such thing as religious wars as we today understand it, as a war to impose a certain belief on heretics. Polytheism is naturally open to various interpretations, theologies, etc., even seemingly mutually exclusive ones. They only really spread as the people who practice it spread, either through migration, warfare to conquer a territory for the conquerors to live in and subjugate or oust the former inhabitants if any, or through contact and cultural assimilation with a prestige culture (cf. the Hellenistic period of the spread or Hinduism), etc. People worship Gods in part also because those are the Gods their people worship. Because it is just what you do as a member of that people, that community (Japan is a good example of this). Another thing people often get wrong is that being devoted to a particular God or group of Gods does no preclude one to worship others. Just because a smith will put great emphasis on a Smith God, that does not mean they offer no worship or does not partake in rituals or festivals dedicated to other Gods, that they will neglect household worship, that he won't also worship Gods related to business and wealth and good fortune. In polytheism, Gods are not usually exclusivist, they do not own their worshippers or devotees like a slavemaster owns slaves. Gods are also not usually limited strictly do Their domain. Aphrodite, for example, is not just a Goddess of Love, but also fertility and sex, warfare, civil harmony. Hephaistos is not just a Smith and inventor, He is also the Lame God and as such would be appealing to people with physical disabilities, regardless of whether they worked in industry or smithing. Gods can also do things for their devotees not usually considered part of Their domain. Hephaistos might, for example, aid His devotees in their search for love and help them find a suitable mate. The Gods are not limited to strictly their domains any more than Hello Future Me is strictly and only a TH-camr, he is also a son, a boyfriend, a loyal slave of Supreme Leader Mishka (all hail Mishka), etc. The Gods are individuals with Their own wants, needs, agendas, etc. As to a difference between Eastern and Western polytheism, there really isn't any. It is just polytheism. Westerners tend to view their ancient Gods as very humanlike partly because of literalistic readings of myths, which is not what ancient societies did. Particularly not the intelligentsia. There is a difference between sacred/mythical truth and historic/scientific truth, which was commonly understood. When you really get into it, in actual practice, Western and Eastern polytheisms are not that different, as can be testified by modern Western polytheists reviving our ancestral polytheisms. Similarly, in practice, polytheism, animism, shamanism, etc. really are not different things, they are one and the same thing, and the distinction is mainly Western, monotheist-dominated scholarly views, not actual reality.
I am a Hellenic polytheist, though being a Fleming and thus of Germanic background, I have been thinking of also exploring Germanic polytheism. I have received a nudge in that direction through divination, which adds to my wish to explore it.
Agathokles Martinios you offer sacrifices (if it was done way back when)? You pray etc? Whats it like? I always wondered if people worship greek pantheon etc
I'm actually working on these stuff for a RuneQuest campaign I just started. Since it's in the Paleolothic-Neolothic the belief system the people of that time has is everything. While watching your video I realized I followed pretty much all the stuff you've been talking about, specially about answering the three main questions about religion, so I think I'm doing a pretty good job on that. Also, because it's such an arcaic period, most of the conflicts come from those kinds of intepretations and the way the society shapes their system of beliefs. Loved your video, keep the amazing content flowing.
An interesting story is the manga/anime Noragami. I mention it because it focuses on a minor god in Japan and his attempts at getting followers, with key plot points being the life/death of a god and how gods change over time. It's great fun and has fantastic action when necessary.
UnknownDane He's a god of War and Calamity, who's trying to be seen as a Messenger god and god of Fortune. Kinda makes some wonder if the gods of various pantheons liked their characterizations or realms of power.
A really interesting theory about Akatosh/Auri-El in the Elder Scrolls, which anyone who watches Fudgemuppet will know, is that he has been driven mad by both the multiple mythopoeic interpretations of him by different races as he exists in every culture on Nirn (or at least Tamriel), as well as the many Dragonbreaks that have occurred throughout history (where the timeline splits and re-converges), namely the Middle Dawn which lasted over 1000 years after the Alessian Order tried to separate his human and elven aspects into separate beings. Akatosh is the Dragon, time itself. 'Dragonbreak' literally refers the Dragon/time breaking, Akatosh himself being broken and put back together over and over. Pair that with the fact that maintaining linear time in an otherwise temporally unstable universe is a fairly monumental and stressful job. Gives a pretty interesting view of how gods may function, and how they and the universe they exist in can affect each other
I recommend two examples for Mythopeia. The first is the Dresden Files series, in which the protagonist comes to learn that not only are deities and spirits formed and shaped by belief as much as anything else, but that they can change and adapt over time. This hits home when Santa Claus shows up to his birthday party, laughs with his belly like a bowlful of jelly, and hints that he's been known by other names in the past. And that Harry's already met him under a different identity. The second is the webcomic "Order of the Stick," in which adventurers are involved in an epic conflict involving the gods... and something horrible that they created inadvertently. In a recent story arc Thor leads two of his worshippers on a journey through the afterlife... not so much as a "final reward" thing but as a "let's take a walk and discuss a few things while your friends are preparing your resurrection" thing. He expresses some regrets regarding his father Odin, who is currently recovering from the last world they created. "The last world had us being worshipped by barbarians who believed magic is for sissies and books were dumb. Since he's the god of magic and knowledge, it affected him a bit... he should be fine in another century or so."
Amazing work! If you happen to have any more to say on what you discussed in this video, feel free to, you've made some fascinating points! This was amazing and I love how you drew from vastly different works of fiction for you arguments (although my inner GOT/ASOIAF fanaticism thought about how you could (and that you should) have used the series more as it encompasses many of your points, on the other hand my inner Elder Scrolls fanaticism was bummed out that while featured as background visuals, you didn't reference the series in your points). Anyways... All hail Mishka Deus Vult! Infidels!
missinglink10001 With the right budget and directing The Silmarillion would make a killer miniseries. The question is whether to try to make a cohesive storyline, or film it as the abridged history docudrama it is.
I am now imagining David Attenborough or Ian McClellan doing the narrating for a docudrama. (Of course, Sir Christopher Lea would be the best choice but that is sadly no longer a possibility.)
Leigh Bardugo's GrishaVerse books do religion like absolutely no one else. The first series, Shadow and Bone, involves a woman literally becoming a living saint, while in her second series, Six of Crows, we see how a different country in the same world worships money and trade above all else. They're both amazing series, I really can't recommend them enough. Her worldbuilding is practically unparalleled.
I have watched this and every time Tim says "Religion is complicated" I was filled with joy just by listening to 2 s of Sabaton's The Last Stand xD PD: Coincidentally, I was wearing the T-shirt of that album while watching this :D
Fact check for use in future videos: the Silent Sisterhood follow the Stranger rather than the Mother in ASOIAF. In 40k, they follow the God-Emperor like all faithful members of humanity.
Right on time! You always seem to make just the right video when I need it. I've been thinking a lot about what kind of religion/s I'll have in my world, how to implement it and what role it will play so this video was perfectly timed.
I've noticed that in this video series, which I love btw, you haven't talked about the Malazan books of the fallen. Fantastic in terms of world building, and my favourites fantasy series! Would highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet!
good thing you made this. i recently created a pantheon for the universe of my fantasy novel, now i can learn to incorporate it effectively if there's ever any mention of it
The really interesting part about Small Gods is the fact that the God Om has probably the most followers, yet has lost all his power because none of them truly believe (they are more invested in the institution of their religion than in the god himself.)
The Empire Trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts is one of my all-time faves for gorgeous worldbuilding, and I loved the religion-building in it as well. It's set in a much more Asian-inspired than Europe-inspired fantasy landscape, where there's almost no metal, there's a very strict social hierarchy in place, gods have very intense followers (you're introduced to the protag as she's about to take vows to become a follower of a goddess before Family Duty gets in the way), magic is real, there are giant sentient insects...god, I could flail about it all day.
one interesting thing i have in one of my worlds religions is that the beliefs that came from it changed the vocab of the people. The word for moon (sol'apsar) is a slightly altered version of the name of their moon god (apsarishka), as one example.
You asked for recommendations of books to ready with great world-building, and I think The Culture series by Iain M. Banks fits the bill. It's a far-future sci-fi setting, where the titular Culture is a utopic civilisation being run by super-advanced AI. It's interesting mainly in that while the Culture themselves rarely have any problems the focus of most of the novels is on their interaction with other civilisations, and how they attempt to use social engineering to steer them towards a brighter future; in this way the books do a lot of disassembling of what makes each society tick which is a very helpful case study for building your own fictional society from the ground-up. Most of the books are only sequels in the loosest sense, they're mainly just a shared world so you can pick them up in whatever order. I recommend "The Player of Games" as a good starting point.
Ii found this very helpful and inspiring for designing the religion in my novel. Thank you for these talking points. They helped me hone in on what was important and the best ways to create a religion that felt lived, and not just existing.
Nice Sabaton reference but the song wasn't about the crusades Edit: The best polytheistic example of religious incorporation would be Rome actually. They attempted to keep a Pax Romana among the deities from all parts of the empire, with Grecian, Romantic and Celtic Gods all in the pantheon so long as Rome oversaw them all.
One of the things I love about Dragon Age is how they manage to integrate something as esoteric as the politics of the canonization of a sacred text and then its impact both societally and individually centuries later. E.g.: turns out the Chantry suppressed the fact that their savior's analogue to St. Peter was an elf, because back in day the heirs of the Charlemagne-analogue wanted to take over the last sovereign territory of the elves; meanwhile, in DA2 you can cement a friendship (and possibly start a romance) by giving a copy of the suppressed book to your elf friend who is an escaped slave from the same country as said St. Peter-analogue. Of course, Chantry scholars who admit the book existed justify its removal because "well, it was probably just the elves projecting their heathen trickster god into our book, there's no proof he was real" but then OH WAIT YOU MEET HIS GHOST. And then two games later OH SHIT THE TRICKSTER GOD IS REAL AND WAS SECRETLY ONE OF YOUR COMPANIONS AND ALSO REALLY LOOKS LIKE THAT GHOST.
One of my favorite fantasy novels with heavy religion is "The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel" by Michael Scott. It's not really it's own unique religion but a fascinating take on all the real world's religions. I'm a sucker for stories that take unique views on real world religions.
I really like that series because I'm a mythology nerd and the series does *fascinating* things with figures who are legendary in some capacity, which explains why you can have Odin and famous cowboy (I forget his name) in the same scene and have it all make sense. ;)
His majestys dragon. Its alternative history about a Napoleonic era Europe with dragon based air forces. I don't know if it has a lot to do with religion but it's a great series.
Specter5053 It didn't really have any strong religious themes, but it was interesting how the treatment of dragons played into local cultures and religions. In one place they were essentially gods incarnate, in another they were seen as reincarnated ancestors (with a dash of ancestor worship), in another they were considered little more than animals. In the places where dragons were held in higher regard society and related infrastructure were built around their presence and was more able to benefit from the dragons' inclusion. But overall religion is more a flavor text than theme in the Temerraire series.
An audible book that has an interesting religion system in a fantasy setting is Completionist Chronicles Series. The first book The Ritualist sets up a I think 'soft world' magic system. At least your videos is helping me to learn more about books.
When you were talking about mythopoeia, my first thought was Elder Scrolls and how they actually say a Daedra's strength is tied to the strength in those who follow.
@@j2dragon109 I'm no expert. I'm going by what I've learned so far, and according to Fudgemuppet, that's how Daedra gain strength; they just didn't mention Aedra because the focus was on who's the most powerful Daedra.
I don't think there right, the Daedra power levels seem fixed. I believe Jyglag is considered the strongest Daedra but is unkown to almost everyone. They almost certainly gain strength from worshipers, but their power levels aren't tied to the strength of them. Do you have a link to the videos?
Except from the Lady of Mystery, Nocturnal who also grows stronger the more unsolved mysteries and lies there are. The Gray Cowl hides the identity of the wearer, and they are unknowable
I have a nerd love connection to your channel and therefore you...thanks for making awesome nerd content! You are an amazing human with complex thoughts!
One book series with 4 volumes (vol 3 is divided into part 1 and part 2 but should be treated as 1 volume) is called The Faraway Paladin. I think the world building is really interesting. for the religion aspect. You do not have 1 specific god as your main god until you become an adult (at age 15 or so) and once you have a main god, you have to pretty much make a promise to that god and uphold it for the rest of your life; this can be a standard promise or a promise that requires almost all your effort through your life to uphold (though the tougher promises typically means you get more power from the god). In this world, there is magic that uses the language of the gods that when spoken or written, casts a spell and how good that spell depends on how well you can enunciate or how well your calligraphy is. There is also a second kind of magic that is basically a prayer to your god and your god may or may not answer and if you broke your promise to your god you will basically lose the right to use this prayer magic that can cause some miracle kind of things like creating food (if you even could use it in the first place).
Very informative and helpful video, I appreciate the time you put into this. My one criticism would be the common mistake of confusing Catholicism for Christianity.
the Lightbringer series, starting with "The Black Prism" features religion, society, it's magic system beautifully. Looking back at it, the series (still being written) focuses a good deal on it's dominate monotheism. Religion in a book, this is it. It also got prominent polytheism later in the series.
This is really helpful! I'm currently trying to come up with a Medievian Elvish religion for my book series. Noting on the part about considering how different groups interpret the same gods, I think I'm going to have the Elves and Orcs both see the godess of Nature, Elalef, as good but for different reasons. My story is basically a group of Elves went about the forest and over-hunted and killed their prey violently, so Elalef turned them to Orcs. The Elves like this because they see Elalef as cursing the Orcs, punishing them for their evil hunt by disfiguring them, causing them to be outcast. The Orcs like this because they see the event as them being blessed with strength for their skill at hunting. They see it as Elalef (Orcish: Elaliv) giving them a gift. Also I think I'll have the Elves and Orcs worship the same gods under different names. Ulind, the Elvish god of death, will be worshipped the same by Orcs under the name Olund. Elalef, godess of nature becomes Elaliv, the hunting godess.
Well you spoke about another Brandon Sanderson Book in this video, but I'm currently listening to the Mistborn series by him on Audible, and I have to say the trilogy goes into many different religions, after the first book, a millenia long "metal based" religion begins to fall and the people in the kingdom begin to look elsewhere for a new religion. It touches on several different kinds of religions even having a character whose sole purpose for his entire life was just to catalog all the religions in the world so they wouldn't be forgotten. The first book has a focus on the idea if your god was also your emperor, I highly recommend the entire series.
Mine has a mixed set. Originally a monotheistic one god, Suverrann - who split off a portion of himself for company, that portion later tricked him into splitting off more, and shattered the one god into many aspects of his divinity. Then those aspects … could actually die and have their mantle assumed by a new individual who represents that aspect. Who also inherits all of the memories and past of the previous aspects. So there is continuity at the same time as there is periodic change in emphasis. It also tends to end up rather more Greek in character with rather more human acting deities than impersonal and distant ones.
Hello! From the future. 😂 I thought it was funny. But any how I am a new subscriber and am binging your library! Excellent work!!!! You should read, or listen to, the Belgariad be David Eddings. Another saga and 2 books extra books of this world and many other works. Great read and awe inspiring world. Thank you for your work!!!!
The Book of the Righteous by Green Ronin is a dnd setting book all about a whole pantheon of gods and the special cosmology around it. As its meant to be for dnd, its very modular. Each god can have its own church and/or have a centralized church that acts as the convenient place to worship all the gods. The last bit I find really interesting because it creates a very monotheistic feeling religion for a polytheistic faith.
Christianity is a perfect demonstration of all of what you've described, not only because it has branched in to may forms, and not only because it is itself an offshoot of judaism, but because if you go back even earlier, it was polytheistic! The Israelites worshipped a whole pantheon of gods, and Yahweh was (if I remember correctly) the god of volcanoes, storms, and generally wrath. Given the Israelites history, they naturally gravitated to a wrathful god, and eventually all the other deities faded in to obscurity. Academics sometimes credit God's wrathful nature in the first testament to some of the characteristics of this previous iteration spilling over in to the earliest stories of the old testiment.
I’m about halfway through the video, so maybe you cover this, but I didn’t see it listed on the time stamps: It’s interesting to me that this video seems to come from the perspective of “gods are fictions created by people to match their culture”, but then it dips into discussion of receiving magical power from those gods. This raises two questions. 1. Doesn’t receiving magical power from those gods make them real in that world? 2. If the gods were real and existed before their worshippers (instead of being created by them), wouldn’t the gods predating religion *dramatically change* how religions are formed and develop? I’d love to know your thoughts on world-building religions from that perspective.
I’d love to hear what you have to say about Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash’s world building. I find interesting as there’s alot of mystery surrounding the gods of their world and not to mention how the society operates with all the new recruits for the volunteer soldiers seemingly appearing out of nowhere.
I think the problem is religion is not about a god. Religion, in its most base form, is the morality, ideology, and beliefs of a people. When building a religion, dont focus on gods, focus on the mindset of the people and how they handle the struggle of life.
There is an ongoing serial web fiction called "The Gods are Bastards" that incorporates a lot of what you speak about with creating a religion. The primary religion is a polytheistic and the second generation of gods, but the pantheon is held together by a central church that works as the go between for the followers of each of the gods. There are also spirits and multiple forms of magic so that some get their magic from the gods, others from spirits or demons, and others though channeling the energy themselves or through using alchemy. The different cults and their interactions with each other make up a large portion of the story, helping to define characters even as some of them change cults over the course of their story arcs as their personalities change. Overall if you haven't read it I would give it a try though it is long and there is a lot to catch up on, it follows a lot of what you mention in regards to religion, and your series on magic systems.
An interesting one is the Innocent Mage series by Karen Millar. It’s been a while since I’ve read it so I can’t comment in as much detail but the blonde-haired immigrants (basically elves) have extravagant magic and they pretty much worship “Barl”, who was actually just a really powerful mage of the time of immigration and didn’t want such worship. The natives are dark-haired, more rustic and grounded and their beliefs are more in line with the needs of their magicless lives.
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“I find your lack of faith disturbing” is easily my favorite line in the entire star wars universe. In one line, the major antagonist of the story sets up the following ideas:
A.) Belief in the force is religious in nature.
B.) Not everyone in the universe buys into it.
C.) The religion crosses the boundary between the “good guys” and the “bad guys”
D.) Using the force requires faith in its power, whether you’re on the dark side of light side of the force.
E.) Despite the fact that it’s ancient and some feel that it’s outdated, it is incredibly real and absolutely relevant to the world of the story.
In my opinion, this line paints Vader as some cardinal of a very powerful, corrupt and evil Church, but a Church with a benevolent facade; some high-ranking cosmic Dark!Catholic priest (that would make the Emperor kinda like the Pope). Imagine a story like Star Wars but in the real world with Dark!Catholics having magical power and corrupting Europe to their ways, and Luke leading a wiccan pagan rebellion against it...
@Silent Knight In my eyes, he's more like to be of Cathar "Good Christians", than of Protestantism =) With those alternate!Catholics believing in jealous, angry and abusive deity of Old Testament, and those alternative!Cathars ditching him for the loving deity of New Testament.
Come to think of it: isn't Old Testament deity a top-notch Sith, with all that passion, anger and jealousy of his? =)
It also could be a comment on disbelief in general, even in a very tangible and real (in universe) force that a moment later was choking him. It also demonstrates that the admiralty of the Galactic Empire doesn't necessarily have respect for their emperor, just the might of the Empire that isn't contingent on The Force.
Vader wasn't really the antagonist so much as a narrative driver but I see how he could be considered one
@ckl Well remember, the Emperor took over the galaxy through political scheming and democratic election. Not everyone knows he is a Sith, so they probably respect him, they just don’t respect Vader the blunt instrument of the Emperor’s power and they don’t respect him because they see him as no different from a Jedi who is on their side. They wouldn’t respect the Force because all the Jedi are dead, and most people would never have seen it being used. Also they know it is a tool of the Jedi, and if they were so powerful then why are they all dead?
"So, how was the world created in your religion?"
A wizard did it.
Kathy Kat
A wizard did it.
"But who-" It's wizards all the way down.
And that is the actual religion in the Earthsea cycles (the wizard Segoy spoke the world into being).
What came first-the wizard or the wizard?
Another wizard, obviously
Wizardception
There is just one rule you cannot break, if you have a sky god, they have to fight to fight a giant serpent. No complaining, everyone else follows the rule, even Tolkien.
Wait did Uranus (sky incarnate) fight a giant snake?
@@himboghost629 Zeus did
Rayquaza is next level, a sky god AND a giant serpent
Tolkien? When did Manwë fight a serpent?
The same thing but different phrasing: any lightning god is required to fight a dragon too
9:10
To use a monotheistic example, this is actually how the Egyptian pantheon came to be. One city state expanded and conquered other settlements with existing religious beliefs, so the compromise off was “you’re not joining of your free will, but we’ll throw ya a bone and let you keep your god.”
My favorite example of this is the Fayyum, a lake city with a large population of Crocodiles. These crocodiles are revered as guardians of the river, and this river needed protection as it was critical to the survival of that people group. Thus their regional god, Sobek, is a warrior who is depicted through crocodiles. These folks literally worshipped crocodiles as guardians of the river.
By incorporating this religion into the existing pantheon, you secure both their loyalties and a warrior group. The drawback here is that the strong regional identity can ultimately backfire.
religion doesn't necessarily have to be focused on a "god" or higher power for it to still be used. for example, fascist or dictatorial governments will often use religious-like structures and rituals to keep everyone in line, making sure you show devotion to the great leader. and, like the star wars example from the start, the jedi and sith don't worship the force, and the force is not a god. but they are both considered "religions" within the story, because they follow strict moral codes that come into conflict from how the force should be used.
I think Star Wars is a fun series, but the Force is so complicated... it's spoken of as having a WILL, which is an aspect of personalities (boulders don't have volition), but also described as impersonal, so... weird.
Mentioning the Force is an interesting point because it is based on Buddhim and Daoism. Classical Buddhism is essentially atheistic. Later developments added gods, demons, etc. in some forms of Buddhism, but they are all in the same boat as humans, stuck in samsara(death/rebirth/death) so there is no point in getting too involved with them. Daoism is complicated in its view of gods (and everything else). There are spiritual forces and the Eight Immortals etc., but the Daoist isn't so much about following deities as he is in following the Dao philosophy. Confucianism is also called a religion and a philosophy. Lip service is paid to the Court of Heaven, but it is more about a way of life and a social/ethical theory than anything else. Of course, popular Chinese religion often inserts various local spirits and gods, but the more formal, classical versions of these religions/philosophies have never been too concerned with deities.
Mark Murphy The Force in Star Wars (in Legends a least) can be divided into three parts, each embodied by the Ones (with a fourth that tacked itself on). These are the Daughter (Ashla), who embodies the light side, the Son (Bogan) who embodies the dark side, and the Father who embodies the universal force (it's basically the neutral side that keeps the other two in balance). The fourth is the Mother (Abeloth) who embodies chaos to the order of the Father. Abeloth was locked away by the other three after she came to be and destroyed their empire, ever since they just kinda hanged out on Mortis until they all died in the Clone Wars, which eventually lead to Abeloth getting free (whether any of the four will stay dead after they were all killed is not quite clear). The Daughter as the light side essentially represented creation and peace, the Son destruction and war, while the Father was balance and order. This is most basically represented by what the followers of their different parts of the Force could do (they were largely forgotten by the galaxy so they didn't have worshipers per se but different groups did call upon the sides of the Force they embodied). The light side users were best at healing, dark side users were the best at destruction, and while their were never really any pure universal force user, the members on each side that used it could do thing like see into the future or past and even affect things there to some extent. The will of the Force seems mostly how the Triad feels something should happen (mostly being the Father). Oh, and Abeloth kinda just represents chaos and annihilation, if she stays in one place long enough reality kinda gets a little warped. There's also the Font of Power and Pool of Knowledge where the power and knowledge of the universe take shape (these are how Abeloth became part of the Ones), there's also a lake filled all the souls of the dead, and a dagger/sword thing that can actually harm and kill the Ones. The Ones were apparently known as the Celestials during the time of their empire. The Force itself exists whether or not the Ones exist but they kinda gave it shape and defined it and it's will. The interpretations of the Force that so many different groups have in Star Wars is how they came to see it, since the Ones had long ago just disappeared. That's kinda a basic run through the reasons the Force is divided into sides and has a "Will" in Star Wars legends.
I personally think that The Force in Star Wars is more based off of Zoroastrianism than either Daoism or Buddhism because, while both of the latter two focus on the neccisity of having both Light AND Darkness in your life in order to achieve true balance. Zoroastrianism on the other hand teaches that The Light is entirely good, while The Darkness is entirely evil, which seems to be more in line with the theological philosophy of The Jedi Order.
Dustwarewolf 55 That is the view of the Jedi Order, but (in Legends mostly) most Star Wars stories show how they came to have that philosophy and how narrow minded, hypocritical, and weak it made them, since the dark side wasn't necessarily evil, it's just that most if not all of it's followers were at least seen as such by everyone else, because it's the side of aggression, power, and fury, mostly being predisposed to destruction, with it's use generally having a rapidly corrupting effect on it's users. Not all dark side users are evil, and the dark side itself isn't evil, it's just very, very dark. Though admittedly the original trilogy does give the impression that you gave, The Force was based of Buddhist and Doaist beliefs originally.
I once wrote down a pantheon based on tarot cards, with each god being one card.
Different groups interpret these cards and thus gods differently
Oh wow! That's a beautiful concept and quite esoteric. Good luck!!
@@lesteryaytrippy7282 it's working pretty well so far.
divided them into big primordial gods
(the world, wheel of fortune, and death)
major gods (most of them)
and archangels (high priestess, hierophant, justice, hanged man)
for the rest, it kinda writes itself.
@@alecchristiaen4856 omg do you have an update I would love to hear more
@@alecchristiaen4856 me too
no way thats so cool!!! id like to read about the pantheon :o
People creating gods based on their environments is something I needed to hear for a story I'm writing. Everything is finally coming together, thanks.
After ten minutes I took this from the video: "Religion is complicated"
Edit: Great video, loved the very well explained aspects of each point. Learning about Worldbuilding is probably my favourite series on this channel
Yeah. Religion is essentially never a simple or easy to explain subject. Any fictional religion that sounds like it's simple, even if it had an entire doctrine consisting of one paragraph in the present language? That is a lie. The kind of doctrinal disputes like "Is Jesus God? Separate from God? A part of God?" or "What parts of the Bible are canon?" from the Abrahamic faiths history give solid examples of how divisive it gets. In general Religion serves one of two roles in stories: as an element of some actual plot point. (IE: members of X faith use this particular spice in their dishes, victim had eaten this spice hours before death.) in which case you can generally avoid having to detail it much if it doesn't show up again... Or it's a part of the setting. If it's the latter, it is only right to flesh out that religion properly. Where things get truly thorny is settings where you have a real religion (or sect their of) around, especially when it needs to deal with an out of context for real life thing. As an example: How do good Catholic people deal with finding out they are Wizards in the setting of Harry Potter? Is there a sect of Catholicism that found a way to reconcile the texts and doctrine with this new reality? Is there a 'Wizard-Pope' and whole other set of doctrinal works specifically removed from the rest of the religion (IE the accurate to real life one) because they addressed this? It can be fascinating to consider, but it's an extremely touchy subject compared to a religion built from whole cloth, even if it borrows major elements from real religions. (For example, the faiths of the Kushan people in the setting of Homeworld, which have pilgrimage to holy sites as a major component.)
DEUS VULT INFIDEL!
@@poisondamage2182 dEUS vULT iNFIDEL!!!
I love how Lovecraft made his Mythos. There are the gods of the earth that we all know, above them there are the Other Gods, above them there are the Outer Gods, and there are also other groups of Gods like the Ancient Ones. So there are many groups which coexist, part of the same pantheon, yet markedly separate ones, and even the Gods have their own Gods which they worship, and above all that there is Azathoth, who is the “One God”, but is an Idiot God, mindless and uncaring, and all it does is sleep and dream, helping no one, caring about nothing, but is nonetheless the absolute creator of all things.
A fact that goes unrecognized a lot of the time is that Greek gods are canon to Lovecraft's Dream Cycle and by extension the Cthulhu Mythos.
In Percy Jackson, a god fades away if everything they stand for is gone.
Trump: what if I pollute the world so much I kill Zeus and Poseidon?
This is how real world mythology works. The god of Mammoths probably existed at some point but died when the mammoths died
@@theunreadyone No it doesn't. If you think you have any idea on how Pantheons work, You don't. Because there is no real definition of what a god is. Some Religions portray gods as nature personified, or alegories (Norse). Some as powerful people with their own fellings and thoughts (Greek). Some as a hibryd of those (Egiptian). Some have gods as Living elements, only vessels the elements use as a form, While some as just rulers of forces, Where the fire god has authority over fire no more, than a mortal king over steel.
@@d4n737 I don’t understand your point. If a god is meant to represent something, and that thing fades away, people will forget about it, stop worshipping the god, and the god will fade away too. Is that not how it would go? I won’t pretend to be an expert on pantheons, but I see no reason why this wouldn’t happen
@@theunreadyone Ah, you mean sociologically.
if if it's the other way around, then, well People are stubborn. If a god partons a celebration, and they no longer celebrate it, they're still gonna believe in the god, Maybe under a diffrent name, domain, etc.. Cultures change and gods will be depicted as patrons of diffrent things over time.
I found the Dark Souls games have a very interesting way of presenting mythos/religion. While most information is provided through item descriptions, there's still a TON of details hidden in things like the level design, enemy behavior, and even the covenant system. It's done in a way to show the players that the world was rich with culture, ideals, and beliefs LONG before their character arrived.
And even though this is a game with an unconventional narrative, I still find it to be a really solid example of worldbuilding.
EXACTLY. I hope to adopt some aspects of Dark Soul's mythos into my own worldbuilding.
Yeah, Religion in Dark Souls is work because you can literally meet that god and kill him and use his holy soul on useless weapon...
Aren't all the gods dead or crippled in the Darksouls universe?
@@tylernelson5656 Well yes but actually no
@@spawnofchaos9422 lol memes used as an accurate response are my favorites
"Are you just telling me your religion?" I say to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses showing up at my house.
lmao
Or to the redditors when you post a comment even remotely mentioning the bible.
Also _literally everyone_ Spain, Portugal, and Britain colonised.
"Have you heard about our lord and savior Mithras?"
@@YataTheFifteenth yes thank you lol
"Am I fictional?!" That made me laugh harder than anything has all day. Thank you for that.
19:45 there's an interesting book called City of Stairs which really explores this idea. A central plot point is that there was a vicious cycle where extremist followers would exaggerate certain traits of their gods, their reinterpretation would affect the gods, moderate followers would adjust their views to match the gods' new behavior, and then new subgroups would form which are extremist relative to the new normal.
City of Stairs, the subsequent novels, the new Founders Trilogy, and pretty much anything by Robert Jackson Bennett is simply incredible, beautiful, and awe-inspiring.
o.o
For a good example of how "RELIGION IS COMPLICATED" in fiction, check out the comic book series 'The Mice Templar'. The protagonist mice worship a deity named Wotan and have religious beliefs and institutions very similar to Judaism and Christianity, but are bitterly divided between conservative and liberal interpretations of the same core tenets, which is further complicated by character development as individual characters on both sides often begin gravitating towards more moderate or hard-line views as the story progresses. The antagonist rats, bats, and weasels all theoretically worship a being named Donas who has strong parallels to the Satan, but go about it very differently. The rats have an organized caste of priests called druids who conduct large-scale rituals, while the bats revere Donas and hate Wotan but have no religious institutions (perhaps due to their race's opinion of themselves as semi-divine), and the weasels clearly value their political goals over any religious scruples- at one point openly threatening to switch sides and join the Templar if the druids attempt a theocratic coup.
I accidentally created a Pantheon in my story based around aspects of reality like life death time and space. I didn't realize the way I described them was like God's until after the fact
Dragon Age has one of the best religious systems I've seen in a work of fiction. There are essentially three prominent, well fleshed out religions in its world that affect how the characters act, and how politics operate, alongside a few other minor, but equally interesting religions.
DoktorApplejuce Abridged it Always seemed pretty standard for me... It feels like the catholic church.
And then we find out there are more from smaller tribes and we just get even more confused :v
Dragon Age has good ones, but I personally prefer The Elder Scroll's.
I'd say the Qun is Islam to be honest. The Qun has none of the 330 000 different gods or belief in re-encarnation or a philosophy of pacifism in the face of certain agressions.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the caste system lmao. Been some time since I last played any DA games. Yeah it's kind of a syncretistic religion.
My favourite religion has to be the worship of the god Emperor from warhammer 40k. I think it is interesting how an atheist ended up as a god after failing in his crusade to med religion on a galaxy whide scale. By the way Hello Future me i recommend the Horus herasy book series if you like Dune.
In all honesty, the Chaos Pantheon (and by extension, the eldar pantheon) was always more fascinating to me. The idea that your actions , emotions and thoughts create genuine deities without you even realising their extent, and these in turn manipulate and feed off the collective consciousness is mythopoeia at its purist. It also seems fitting that our worst hell is the one we make for ourselves, hence the Big4
@@343-penitentnarrator8
The thing is in the backstory of the franchise it's made clear that they wouldn't have existed if two Godlike forces hadn't altered the balance of the warp. In doing so they twisted it behind belief.
@@Xo-3130 Fair point, but ultimately it would have happened regardless. Sure the War in Heaven kick-started the turmoil, but the nature of the warp, and the sentient beings of the universe, means something like the chaos pantheon would have eventually occurred regardless. Don't forget that the big four encompass positive emotions as well as negative or base ones. Honor for Khorne, Vitality for Nurgle, Joy for Slaanesh, Hope for Tzeentch, etc. Some are even shared between them. The idea is that the baser emotions of rage, excess, fear of death and ambition tend to be stronger, and hence coalesce stronger in the warp. This may be because these are primal emotions. The writers are therefore pragmatic, cynics or just as likely just thought it would be more fun for the setting, (which it is).
If you want a more "realistic", or balanced pantheon, in the same settings, check out the old eldar religion, or their Warhammer fantasy elf counterparts, where the gods are\were deliberately crafted by them to reflect all the aspects of their nature, and hence give them the power to advance and further their society. It's more akin to the Greek or Norse mythology as a result
@@343-penitentnarrator8 All that begs the question... can the Warp be fixed? Can mortals hope to fix things and undo the crap that the Eldar created?
@@Archone666 Well, the Eldar only strictly created one bit of crap by birthing Slaanesh through incessant, unrepentant murder fucking. You can perhaps lay the enslaver plague on their door but that's really the turmoil created by the near apocalyptic War in Heaven and the nature of the Warp which, as per my previous post, would have caused the issues with the warp seen in "modern" 40k regardless.
To answer your question, I suppose in theory it is, but would require either galactic genocide (to destroy Chaos' source of food) or , even more unlikely, a herculean effort of will by every member of every species, 24 hrs a day, to essentially think them away and colossal amounts of self discipline to contain their baser emotions or relegate them to some other parts of their psyche. The Crafteworld and early eldar, plus the interex, tau (by sheer luck of psychology) and a handful of other civilizations have managed this or something similar and all it does is allow them to deal with chaos and possibly give them an actual afterlife (actually no longer possible, in retrospect). To get every species to do this, let alone just humanity, is borderline impossible. Sapient nature just doesn't seem to work that way.
I think avatar the last airbender depicts spirituality so beautifully
Fine! I shall include Mishka god in my D&D religions
Ouroboros_13 there was an insanely powerful demon lord back in the 2nd edition named Mishka the Wolf-Spider, the first demon prince, way more powerful than Demogorgon
YIIIIIIIISSSSS
im mortal THAT'S IT. I'm OFFICIALLY making Mishka a little bear spirit/deity in my setting. Fuck it, I'm doing it. It has to be done! There's no other option!
@Ned Stark Have you of Ursa Minor. I think it will fit perfectly with the Russian name.
@@hectorvega621 you mean the name Ursula?
After the third clip of Sabaton’s The Last Stand, I had to hit that subscribe button
My main gripe with many fictional polytheisms is how they fail to truly understand what that means. So often does it become monotheism, particularly Christianity with its ecclesiastic hierarchy and churches and cathedrals, but with more Gods. That is not how natural polytheisms usually work, even ones like Roman polytheism which have a relatively centralised system with the Pontifex Maximus on top. Even then, temples in other places will still have their own traditions, their own myths or variations thereof,... Priests also do not necessarily have to be religious experts, the main body of priests throughout ancient Hellas were elected officials elected to serve as a priest on behalf of the community, without needing to be an expert on theology beyond what they needed to know to do their jobs.
Polytheisms also do not really tend towards exclusivism as monotheism does. After all, if we already have this many Gods, who are we to deny the existence of other people's Gods? Gods can be adopted through contact with other peoples, Gods may decrease in significance or influence, etc. There's also no such thing as religious wars as we today understand it, as a war to impose a certain belief on heretics. Polytheism is naturally open to various interpretations, theologies, etc., even seemingly mutually exclusive ones. They only really spread as the people who practice it spread, either through migration, warfare to conquer a territory for the conquerors to live in and subjugate or oust the former inhabitants if any, or through contact and cultural assimilation with a prestige culture (cf. the Hellenistic period of the spread or Hinduism), etc. People worship Gods in part also because those are the Gods their people worship. Because it is just what you do as a member of that people, that community (Japan is a good example of this).
Another thing people often get wrong is that being devoted to a particular God or group of Gods does no preclude one to worship others. Just because a smith will put great emphasis on a Smith God, that does not mean they offer no worship or does not partake in rituals or festivals dedicated to other Gods, that they will neglect household worship, that he won't also worship Gods related to business and wealth and good fortune. In polytheism, Gods are not usually exclusivist, they do not own their worshippers or devotees like a slavemaster owns slaves. Gods are also not usually limited strictly do Their domain. Aphrodite, for example, is not just a Goddess of Love, but also fertility and sex, warfare, civil harmony. Hephaistos is not just a Smith and inventor, He is also the Lame God and as such would be appealing to people with physical disabilities, regardless of whether they worked in industry or smithing. Gods can also do things for their devotees not usually considered part of Their domain. Hephaistos might, for example, aid His devotees in their search for love and help them find a suitable mate. The Gods are not limited to strictly their domains any more than Hello Future Me is strictly and only a TH-camr, he is also a son, a boyfriend, a loyal slave of Supreme Leader Mishka (all hail Mishka), etc. The Gods are individuals with Their own wants, needs, agendas, etc.
As to a difference between Eastern and Western polytheism, there really isn't any. It is just polytheism. Westerners tend to view their ancient Gods as very humanlike partly because of literalistic readings of myths, which is not what ancient societies did. Particularly not the intelligentsia. There is a difference between sacred/mythical truth and historic/scientific truth, which was commonly understood. When you really get into it, in actual practice, Western and Eastern polytheisms are not that different, as can be testified by modern Western polytheists reviving our ancestral polytheisms. Similarly, in practice, polytheism, animism, shamanism, etc. really are not different things, they are one and the same thing, and the distinction is mainly Western, monotheist-dominated scholarly views, not actual reality.
This was a whopper of a comment, but it contained some really interesting points. Thank you for posting all this!
Yeah, being a practicing polytheist means I have quite a lot to say about the topic :P
Agathokles Martinios what pantheon you warship?
I am a Hellenic polytheist, though being a Fleming and thus of Germanic background, I have been thinking of also exploring Germanic polytheism. I have received a nudge in that direction through divination, which adds to my wish to explore it.
Agathokles Martinios you offer sacrifices (if it was done way back when)? You pray etc? Whats it like? I always wondered if people worship greek pantheon etc
I'm actually working on these stuff for a RuneQuest campaign I just started. Since it's in the Paleolothic-Neolothic the belief system the people of that time has is everything. While watching your video I realized I followed pretty much all the stuff you've been talking about, specially about answering the three main questions about religion, so I think I'm doing a pretty good job on that. Also, because it's such an arcaic period, most of the conflicts come from those kinds of intepretations and the way the society shapes their system of beliefs.
Loved your video, keep the amazing content flowing.
An interesting story is the manga/anime Noragami. I mention it because it focuses on a minor god in Japan and his attempts at getting followers, with key plot points being the life/death of a god and how gods change over time. It's great fun and has fantastic action when necessary.
Jacob Borg I'm still waiting for season 3. X.X
It also fits the description that the MC was a wargod and because he's no longer needing with peace, then he's forgotten by everyone
UnknownDane He's a god of War and Calamity, who's trying to be seen as a Messenger god and god of Fortune. Kinda makes some wonder if the gods of various pantheons liked their characterizations or realms of power.
It's actually based 99% on the real life religion
I was just starting to write a comment about the Thalmor and Mythopea when your note popped up on the screen. Always glad to see a shoutout to TES. ;)
Your editing is actually improving, keep it up
A really interesting theory about Akatosh/Auri-El in the Elder Scrolls, which anyone who watches Fudgemuppet will know, is that he has been driven mad by both the multiple mythopoeic interpretations of him by different races as he exists in every culture on Nirn (or at least Tamriel), as well as the many Dragonbreaks that have occurred throughout history (where the timeline splits and re-converges), namely the Middle Dawn which lasted over 1000 years after the Alessian Order tried to separate his human and elven aspects into separate beings. Akatosh is the Dragon, time itself. 'Dragonbreak' literally refers the Dragon/time breaking, Akatosh himself being broken and put back together over and over. Pair that with the fact that maintaining linear time in an otherwise temporally unstable universe is a fairly monumental and stressful job. Gives a pretty interesting view of how gods may function, and how they and the universe they exist in can affect each other
excellent video Tim
Wtf where you here?
Thank you for your hard work. Was enjoyable to follow as a former theology student from a Christian Baptist background. Keep doing your great work UWU
I recommend two examples for Mythopeia. The first is the Dresden Files series, in which the protagonist comes to learn that not only are deities and spirits formed and shaped by belief as much as anything else, but that they can change and adapt over time. This hits home when Santa Claus shows up to his birthday party, laughs with his belly like a bowlful of jelly, and hints that he's been known by other names in the past. And that Harry's already met him under a different identity.
The second is the webcomic "Order of the Stick," in which adventurers are involved in an epic conflict involving the gods... and something horrible that they created inadvertently. In a recent story arc Thor leads two of his worshippers on a journey through the afterlife... not so much as a "final reward" thing but as a "let's take a walk and discuss a few things while your friends are preparing your resurrection" thing. He expresses some regrets regarding his father Odin, who is currently recovering from the last world they created. "The last world had us being worshipped by barbarians who believed magic is for sissies and books were dumb. Since he's the god of magic and knowledge, it affected him a bit... he should be fine in another century or so."
Achivement unlock : being able to talk about religion without being offensive or mean toward them
Well done :D
Amazing work! If you happen to have any more to say on what you discussed in this video, feel free to, you've made some fascinating points!
This was amazing and I love how you drew from vastly different works of fiction for you arguments (although my inner GOT/ASOIAF fanaticism thought about how you could (and that you should) have used the series more as it encompasses many of your points, on the other hand my inner Elder Scrolls fanaticism was bummed out that while featured as background visuals, you didn't reference the series in your points).
Anyways...
All hail Mishka
Deus Vult! Infidels!
*Particularly Pertinent to Polytheism*
That’s some tasty alliteration, friend Tim.
They should make one-off, self contained 2-3 hour movies. "The Fall of Ancalagon", "Beren and Luthien", "Morgoth and Ungoliant", etc...
missinglink10001
With the right budget and directing The Silmarillion would make a killer miniseries. The question is whether to try to make a cohesive storyline, or film it as the abridged history docudrama it is.
I am now imagining David Attenborough or Ian McClellan doing the narrating for a docudrama. (Of course, Sir Christopher Lea would be the best choice but that is sadly no longer a possibility.)
Leigh Bardugo's GrishaVerse books do religion like absolutely no one else. The first series, Shadow and Bone, involves a woman literally becoming a living saint, while in her second series, Six of Crows, we see how a different country in the same world worships money and trade above all else. They're both amazing series, I really can't recommend them enough. Her worldbuilding is practically unparalleled.
Started reading Dune a couple of weeks ago, great book! A must read really. Good example of religion/faith done right.
I am trying to do that now :)
I have watched this and every time Tim says "Religion is complicated" I was filled with joy just by listening to 2 s of Sabaton's The Last Stand xD
PD: Coincidentally, I was wearing the T-shirt of that album while watching this :D
Fact check for use in future videos: the Silent Sisterhood follow the Stranger rather than the Mother in ASOIAF.
In 40k, they follow the God-Emperor like all faithful members of humanity.
I listen to my favorite book series “Wings of Fire” all the time on audible
Right on time! You always seem to make just the right video when I need it. I've been thinking a lot about what kind of religion/s I'll have in my world, how to implement it and what role it will play so this video was perfectly timed.
Oh, man, I love how you used that picture of Malacath when talking about how gods can transform and change.
I've noticed that in this video series, which I love btw, you haven't talked about the Malazan books of the fallen. Fantastic in terms of world building, and my favourites fantasy series! Would highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet!
good thing you made this. i recently created a pantheon for the universe of my fantasy novel, now i can learn to incorporate it effectively if there's ever any mention of it
The really interesting part about Small Gods is the fact that the God Om has probably the most followers, yet has lost all his power because none of them truly believe (they are more invested in the institution of their religion than in the god himself.)
The Empire Trilogy by Raymond E. Feist and Janny Wurts is one of my all-time faves for gorgeous worldbuilding, and I loved the religion-building in it as well. It's set in a much more Asian-inspired than Europe-inspired fantasy landscape, where there's almost no metal, there's a very strict social hierarchy in place, gods have very intense followers (you're introduced to the protag as she's about to take vows to become a follower of a goddess before Family Duty gets in the way), magic is real, there are giant sentient insects...god, I could flail about it all day.
one interesting thing i have in one of my worlds religions is that the beliefs that came from it changed the vocab of the people. The word for moon (sol'apsar) is a slightly altered version of the name of their moon god (apsarishka), as one example.
You asked for recommendations of books to ready with great world-building, and I think The Culture series by Iain M. Banks fits the bill. It's a far-future sci-fi setting, where the titular Culture is a utopic civilisation being run by super-advanced AI. It's interesting mainly in that while the Culture themselves rarely have any problems the focus of most of the novels is on their interaction with other civilisations, and how they attempt to use social engineering to steer them towards a brighter future; in this way the books do a lot of disassembling of what makes each society tick which is a very helpful case study for building your own fictional society from the ground-up.
Most of the books are only sequels in the loosest sense, they're mainly just a shared world so you can pick them up in whatever order. I recommend "The Player of Games" as a good starting point.
The Red Rising Saga by Pierce Brown is an amazing Sci-Fi dystopia series, with some fantastic worldbuilding!
Simple calculus, you talked about DL, I subscribed, and the rate of change I make in watching youtube will curve to favor your content.
Ii found this very helpful and inspiring for designing the religion in my novel. Thank you for these talking points. They helped me hone in on what was important and the best ways to create a religion that felt lived, and not just existing.
Nice Sabaton reference but the song wasn't about the crusades
Edit: The best polytheistic example of religious incorporation would be Rome actually. They attempted to keep a Pax Romana among the deities from all parts of the empire, with Grecian, Romantic and Celtic Gods all in the pantheon so long as Rome oversaw them all.
One of the things I love about Dragon Age is how they manage to integrate something as esoteric as the politics of the canonization of a sacred text and then its impact both societally and individually centuries later. E.g.: turns out the Chantry suppressed the fact that their savior's analogue to St. Peter was an elf, because back in day the heirs of the Charlemagne-analogue wanted to take over the last sovereign territory of the elves; meanwhile, in DA2 you can cement a friendship (and possibly start a romance) by giving a copy of the suppressed book to your elf friend who is an escaped slave from the same country as said St. Peter-analogue.
Of course, Chantry scholars who admit the book existed justify its removal because "well, it was probably just the elves projecting their heathen trickster god into our book, there's no proof he was real" but then OH WAIT YOU MEET HIS GHOST. And then two games later OH SHIT THE TRICKSTER GOD IS REAL AND WAS SECRETLY ONE OF YOUR COMPANIONS AND ALSO REALLY LOOKS LIKE THAT GHOST.
This was really well made and has inspired me to go back to creating an old project I dropped
Grade school teacher's starting kit of bad writing advice:
"Show, don't tell"
"Never say 'said'"
"Always work from an outline"
PRAISE THE NINE!
Pedro Soares Divines or Ringwraiths?
Halo Nerd this was Divines.
Pedro Soares Good to know you are not an Orc
HAIL TALOS!
praise the eight. Talos worship is outlawed under the whitegold concordiate and you filthy nords should do well to remember that.
I really like how Disenchantment does the worldbuilding around religion. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek but it really works flavor-wise
I recommend the Rick Riordan books (all including Kane chronicles and of course PERCY JACKSON I'm sorry I'm literally in love with his books) or holes
One of my favorite fantasy novels with heavy religion is "The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel" by Michael Scott. It's not really it's own unique religion but a fascinating take on all the real world's religions. I'm a sucker for stories that take unique views on real world religions.
I really like that series because I'm a mythology nerd and the series does *fascinating* things with figures who are legendary in some capacity, which explains why you can have Odin and famous cowboy (I forget his name) in the same scene and have it all make sense. ;)
"you could make a religion out of this"
I am going to have to watch this a few more times. Great video, but so much to take in!
His majestys dragon. Its alternative history about a Napoleonic era Europe with dragon based air forces. I don't know if it has a lot to do with religion but it's a great series.
Specter5053
It didn't really have any strong religious themes, but it was interesting how the treatment of dragons played into local cultures and religions. In one place they were essentially gods incarnate, in another they were seen as reincarnated ancestors (with a dash of ancestor worship), in another they were considered little more than animals. In the places where dragons were held in higher regard society and related infrastructure were built around their presence and was more able to benefit from the dragons' inclusion.
But overall religion is more a flavor text than theme in the Temerraire series.
An audible book that has an interesting religion system in a fantasy setting is Completionist Chronicles Series. The first book The Ritualist sets up a I think 'soft world' magic system. At least your videos is helping me to learn more about books.
When you were talking about mythopoeia, my first thought was Elder Scrolls and how they actually say a Daedra's strength is tied to the strength in those who follow.
DFed324
Did you mean aedra?
@@j2dragon109 I'm no expert. I'm going by what I've learned so far, and according to Fudgemuppet, that's how Daedra gain strength; they just didn't mention Aedra because the focus was on who's the most powerful Daedra.
I don't think there right, the Daedra power levels seem fixed. I believe Jyglag is considered the strongest Daedra but is unkown to almost everyone.
They almost certainly gain strength from worshipers, but their power levels aren't tied to the strength of them.
Do you have a link to the videos?
Except from the Lady of Mystery, Nocturnal who also grows stronger the more unsolved mysteries and lies there are. The Gray Cowl hides the identity of the wearer, and they are unknowable
I have a nerd love connection to your channel and therefore you...thanks for making awesome nerd content! You are an amazing human with complex thoughts!
When you talked about how religion spreads, another thing that came to mind was Interpretatio Graeca.
. Hearing you talk about Dun now made me smile because the movies came out.
One book series with 4 volumes (vol 3 is divided into part 1 and part 2 but should be treated as 1 volume) is called The Faraway Paladin. I think the world building is really interesting. for the religion aspect. You do not have 1 specific god as your main god until you become an adult (at age 15 or so) and once you have a main god, you have to pretty much make a promise to that god and uphold it for the rest of your life; this can be a standard promise or a promise that requires almost all your effort through your life to uphold (though the tougher promises typically means you get more power from the god). In this world, there is magic that uses the language of the gods that when spoken or written, casts a spell and how good that spell depends on how well you can enunciate or how well your calligraphy is. There is also a second kind of magic that is basically a prayer to your god and your god may or may not answer and if you broke your promise to your god you will basically lose the right to use this prayer magic that can cause some miracle kind of things like creating food (if you even could use it in the first place).
Very informative and helpful video, I appreciate the time you put into this.
My one criticism would be the common mistake of confusing Catholicism for Christianity.
If you haven't yet, you should check out Who Fears Death. That world is so distinct (not necessarily regarding religion, but it's in there).
the Lightbringer series, starting with "The Black Prism" features religion, society, it's magic system beautifully. Looking back at it, the series (still being written) focuses a good deal on it's dominate monotheism. Religion in a book, this is it. It also got prominent polytheism later in the series.
This is really helpful! I'm currently trying to come up with a Medievian Elvish religion for my book series.
Noting on the part about considering how different groups interpret the same gods, I think I'm going to have the Elves and Orcs both see the godess of Nature, Elalef, as good but for different reasons. My story is basically a group of Elves went about the forest and over-hunted and killed their prey violently, so Elalef turned them to Orcs.
The Elves like this because they see Elalef as cursing the Orcs, punishing them for their evil hunt by disfiguring them, causing them to be outcast.
The Orcs like this because they see the event as them being blessed with strength for their skill at hunting. They see it as Elalef (Orcish: Elaliv) giving them a gift.
Also I think I'll have the Elves and Orcs worship the same gods under different names. Ulind, the Elvish god of death, will be worshipped the same by Orcs under the name Olund. Elalef, godess of nature becomes Elaliv, the hunting godess.
The Gods are Bastards has a really good take on this.
I love you On series, All Hail MISHKA
Well you spoke about another Brandon Sanderson Book in this video, but I'm currently listening to the Mistborn series by him on Audible, and I have to say the trilogy goes into many different religions, after the first book, a millenia long "metal based" religion begins to fall and the people in the kingdom begin to look elsewhere for a new religion. It touches on several different kinds of religions even having a character whose sole purpose for his entire life was just to catalog all the religions in the world so they wouldn't be forgotten. The first book has a focus on the idea if your god was also your emperor, I highly recommend the entire series.
How it plays out in the sequel series is also interesting, if with less focus
If you get a chance R.A Salvatore's Legend of Drizzt series is one of the best fantasy worlds ever made. It's a long series but it's well worth it.
0:26 segue not segway
Mine has a mixed set. Originally a monotheistic one god, Suverrann - who split off a portion of himself for company, that portion later tricked him into splitting off more, and shattered the one god into many aspects of his divinity. Then those aspects … could actually die and have their mantle assumed by a new individual who represents that aspect. Who also inherits all of the memories and past of the previous aspects. So there is continuity at the same time as there is periodic change in emphasis. It also tends to end up rather more Greek in character with rather more human acting deities than impersonal and distant ones.
One of the book series I’ve read with really amazing religion (and world building in general) is Amos Daragon by Bryan Perro
The ultimate video on building religions. Thanks for all your tremendous effort, Tim!
Hello! From the future. 😂
I thought it was funny. But any how I am a new subscriber and am binging your library! Excellent work!!!! You should read, or listen to, the Belgariad be David Eddings. Another saga and 2 books extra books of this world and many other works. Great read and awe inspiring world. Thank you for your work!!!!
HAIL MISHKA, yes Mishka is in my pantheon
The Book of the Righteous by Green Ronin is a dnd setting book all about a whole pantheon of gods and the special cosmology around it. As its meant to be for dnd, its very modular. Each god can have its own church and/or have a centralized church that acts as the convenient place to worship all the gods. The last bit I find really interesting because it creates a very monotheistic feeling religion for a polytheistic faith.
Christianity is a perfect demonstration of all of what you've described, not only because it has branched in to may forms, and not only because it is itself an offshoot of judaism, but because if you go back even earlier, it was polytheistic! The Israelites worshipped a whole pantheon of gods, and Yahweh was (if I remember correctly) the god of volcanoes, storms, and generally wrath. Given the Israelites history, they naturally gravitated to a wrathful god, and eventually all the other deities faded in to obscurity. Academics sometimes credit God's wrathful nature in the first testament to some of the characteristics of this previous iteration spilling over in to the earliest stories of the old testiment.
I’m about halfway through the video, so maybe you cover this, but I didn’t see it listed on the time stamps:
It’s interesting to me that this video seems to come from the perspective of “gods are fictions created by people to match their culture”, but then it dips into discussion of receiving magical power from those gods. This raises two questions.
1. Doesn’t receiving magical power from those gods make them real in that world?
2. If the gods were real and existed before their worshippers (instead of being created by them), wouldn’t the gods predating religion *dramatically change* how religions are formed and develop?
I’d love to know your thoughts on world-building religions from that perspective.
I’d love to hear what you have to say about Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash’s world building. I find interesting as there’s alot of mystery surrounding the gods of their world and not to mention how the society operates with all the new recruits for the volunteer soldiers seemingly appearing out of nowhere.
I'm so happy a youtuber finally mentioned the dragonlance books
Really underrated and undiscovered light novel is lord of the mysteries，which has some exceptional plot regarding to religions
Thanks! This just helped me TONS!
Except for your live-stream, this is your longest video yet! Fantastic work.
I think the problem is religion is not about a god. Religion, in its most base form, is the morality, ideology, and beliefs of a people. When building a religion, dont focus on gods, focus on the mindset of the people and how they handle the struggle of life.
Way of Kings, sure, but you MUST mention Sanderson's Mistborn Trilogy for an absolutely fascinating discussion on religion in fantasy.
The religious system in Poppy Wars is really intriguing
Also, just cause I just remembered: The Witcher (ok, it is based on myths and such, but still I'd totally watch, like and share a video about it)
*"Wait... I'M FICTIONAL?!?"*
There is an ongoing serial web fiction called "The Gods are Bastards" that incorporates a lot of what you speak about with creating a religion. The primary religion is a polytheistic and the second generation of gods, but the pantheon is held together by a central church that works as the go between for the followers of each of the gods. There are also spirits and multiple forms of magic so that some get their magic from the gods, others from spirits or demons, and others though channeling the energy themselves or through using alchemy. The different cults and their interactions with each other make up a large portion of the story, helping to define characters even as some of them change cults over the course of their story arcs as their personalities change.
Overall if you haven't read it I would give it a try though it is long and there is a lot to catch up on, it follows a lot of what you mention in regards to religion, and your series on magic systems.
You do know the patron god of Sparta was ares
You should have done the example of religion spreading by looking at how the roman leriligion spred.
Have you read Book Of The New Sun? Pleeeeease do a video about it. Or read it. Or something!
An interesting one is the Innocent Mage series by Karen Millar. It’s been a while since I’ve read it so I can’t comment in as much detail but the blonde-haired immigrants (basically elves) have extravagant magic and they pretty much worship “Barl”, who was actually just a really powerful mage of the time of immigration and didn’t want such worship. The natives are dark-haired, more rustic and grounded and their beliefs are more in line with the needs of their magicless lives.
I see you applied the "assume (imperialist) monarchy" trope