Remember one very important thing : submarines make MUCH less noise than surface vessels. They therefore have every interest in remaining in passive sonar mode as long as they are not detected. This also prevents you from finding yourself with a helicopter overhead a few minutes after emitting your active ping(s). Submarines most often have the ability to precisely locate enemy surface vessels before they are even detected themselves. Active sonar is only used on a submarine as a last resort, for example (non-exhaustive) to correctly reorient a torpedo during guidance if the target has maneuvered too much and distorted the passive sonar's firing solution. Therefore, submarines always in discrete mode, therefore passive, for as long as possible. For surface vessels, it depends entirely on the mission and the rules. But most of the time they are relatively discreet too and they use the helicopters to do active work. On the other hand, in hunting mode on identified targets, surface ships always switch to active sonar mode.
let me tell you, doing comments like this won't increase your subs count as much as you think you must find other ways to make TH-cam algorithm, or people to more likely to pick your video , to get higher views count
@@vincentvoncarnap unlikely, look at how much likes this comment having right now only 19 likes , if this comment is effective at attracting people to sub to this guy it should be way more likes Still the viewcount is the main cause of high sub counts Even youtuber like VidIQ telling tutorial how to get more subs to not begging likes or subs using comments, but rather focus on video topic/quality , thumbnail, views instead
@@vincentvoncarnap i gonna say, subjective , but will it help him get alot of views? certain and uncertain But more "clickbaity" thumbnail can work , the thumbnail that make people more likely to click on , like it more like to make people, stop scrolling , and wondering, and click on from i heard, the thumbnail is very important, even if the editing is good, if the thumbnail is hella bad, it just unlikely to perform well The retention editing, the type of editing that feel fast pace, like mrbeast videos , showing stuff somewhat like mrbeast , working quite well but still retention editing from i heard is not enough, you need to do something more different than others , different emotions, different vibe , and of course, i think relatability is also important , but also should related to the video topic? it is complicated, i think you have a bunch of time to search what make a video famous , reach like 100k views, 1M views
Corrections and clarifications: 1) Sonar Buoys are passive not active. 2) I said radar instead of sonars sometimes. 3) The dev tools always shows a 360 view but my audio on it is more correct than the visual. Submarine based sonars are very directional in terms of how narrow they can see vs sonar domes. 4) Some VDS systems have both a passive and active system !
@@josephesther6252 Yep, SSQ-62 for instance is an active buoy and SSQ-53 is a passive buoy (both should be available to the P-3C and S-3A during the 1980s)
The animation of the flooding tanks of the Delta was cool. Can you please do a video on the Oscar using a Tu-95 to find targets and then show us the Oscar launch a volley of Granat missiles and the missiles swarm behaviour. I really wanna see this :) I hope we don't get an apocalypse before we get to play this game.
@@josephesther6252 : hard on the batteries tho. Mostly useful for scaring the sub you're pretty sure you already know is there by deploying one on-top of them.
I think the whole understanding of "where real life ends and where abstraction begins" is a massive pill that alot of the sim community NEEDS to swallow. I know this is a Sea Power video, but it applies to literally every game out there that attempts to create a simulator atmosphere. At the end of the day, these are GAMES and not 1:1 replicators, they aim to FEEL real, not BE real. Really been enjoying these guides and love learning these concepts before the game comes out, maybe with your help I won't botch every scenario I play when it's here. Keep being a voice of reason towards the community and all the best to you in the meantime. o7
Everything you do as a submarine can be a noise event thus giving yourself away. Increase speed, change of course or depth, reloading weapons, deploy or retract towed array, opening torpedo doors or flooding the tubes, firing weapons, etc. Doing any of this in the baffles of your enemy is best time to do them. This is all heard passively. Blasting away with active sonar gives away your bearing but not necessarily your depth depending on range. Soviets had excellent active sonar as they knew their passive was so poor as was their sound proofing of their own subs. They also didn’t maintain their subs as highly as NATO so once they were 12-18 months old they became noticeably louder. Thus they became very proficient at use of active to compensate.
I hope there will be a full-scale guideline set or something like an encyclopedia to explain all of this step by step. Preferably with some described tactics as well
Command had conversion zones visualised and in a variable way... it was very helpful on detecting subs by pushing toward them from CZ to CZ... and get on top of them before they cold get to torpedo range with your ship... it will be harder to ise that tactic if there's no visual indication on CZs...
Nice vid Enigma. I play a bunch of Cold Waters, and am looking forward to controlling a bunch of Soviet subs in this game. Some important aspects I feel you missed on the sub side, is the fact that using active sonar for any ship is you basically screaming out to the world that you exist, and so if your a sub you generally only ever use active sonar if you have already been detected by another sub and have been fired upon, and you need to locate the enemy sub to return fire. Also Soviet subs have igla missiles specifically to deal with aircraft in game but it's very risky to use them with enemy ships about.
Yes good point on active sonar being like screaming, I should have mentioned that. For Iglas, they do not come on the subs in this game, so helicopters are very safe from submarines for now.
@@Enigma89 Having done a lot of real world helicopter ASW, I'd argue the idea of SubSAMs were/are way over sold. Counter-detction was always the much bigger concern for helos, so no great loss in-game. That said, the detail in all of the various aspects of sonar in this game is pretty amazing.
@@Enigma89I'm still annoyed that Victor 3 class attack sub has no test 71 torpedos, but the Kilo does...the fact that everything, even the flavor text in the descriptions is ported over from the vanilla version of Cold waters, is a little lazy in my opinion, but it does save on development.
Really really well explained. As for the shadow zone, one way to assume you are in one as a submarine, is if you lose the contact or the contact gets weaker, you can assume the same happens on the other side. As you say, not 100% that, but... sub hunting/evading has a big guessing component to it. Also you have to consider that the shadow zone is dynamic and relative to the position and depth of you both.
It's kind of already a sequel to another game made by the same lead developer, Cold Waters. But yes I think it would be a fun multiplayer RTS naval game if they add multiplayer.
That video is so hard for me to watch because it's my job and I know how it actually works, so it's painful to watch the Chief struggle to get through what I know are very easy answers. He's trying so hard to not get too excited.
If you want a newer DW, check out "Modern Naval Warfare" by slitherine/maslas bros. They're expecting a closed beta by the end of this year and public release after.
Could you do something similar for radar and EW? Would be great to know what is modelled (e.g. terrain, earth curvature, missle notching, how chaff is modelled) and how to think about it.
I'm pretty surprised you didn't mention the detectability of active sonar. Maybe it's obvious, But I would like to know more about how other ships will hear me and how much it will reveal me when I use active sonar.
Assuming your active sonar’s receiver and the other ships passive sonar have the same sensitivity. The passive sonar will be able to hear your active sonar ping at twice the distance your active sonar will be able to detect the other ship.
@@notfastenough3350 Frequency is the other factor, the lower the frequency the greater the propagation, broadly speaking. Also your answer above is fine for a simplistic overview, but in reality it is a great deal more complicated than that.
@@notfastenough3350 That would be the absolute theoretical minimum, if signal loss was proportional to distance. Signal loss tends to quadratic in ducts and cubic in deep waters, cutting active detection by a lot more than just half of active interception. Also, the cross section - how much sound you reflect - matters a lot. If the target is nose on, it can get a lot closer before being detected, while still detecting the ping just fine. The shadow zone will keep your sound from reaching them, but it goes both ways - you'll also lose their active pings until they're really close, at which point their active may quickly find you.
I was hoping to hear if passive sonar could be used to localize contacts. I have not seen any videos where the sensing platform would make a significant course change after detecting a contact, listen to it for a bit, then make a course change >60 degrees across the contact's bearing to refine the contact. Active sonar is used early and often, making me wonder if the passive sonar mechanics aren't working right yet.
Actually we have a very sophisticated passive TMA algorithm implemented on the plotting table, so TMA maneuvers absolutely aid in refining your solution if you play a single vessel. Keep in mind that that the tactical display shows fused contact data, not raw sensor data, so with more than one passive sensor holding the same contact, it will be triangulated quickly.
TMA should be slow and methodical. Record the bearings by hand each minute for no more than 10 minutes. Flip the contact, repeat. Now do some trig and boom, contact location.
Great video have a question on sea power and sonar - do any of the ships in sea power use the Prairie-Masker system to help reduce the chances of detection? Just a curiosity os i have seen a lot of OHP and Ticonderoga videos of the game but no mention of it. Wondering how much they have modeled Again great video and very helpful information thank you
@wiseguy3696 I'd assume the results of how well it works are classified but the principal is pretty well understood one part is changing the speed of sound through the medium, which causes the sound to be reflected back to the hull and not radiated outward reducing the acoustic signature of machinery and the other part provides gasses that act to prevent the total collapse of cavitation bubbles and reduce that acoustic signature also. For the game it wouldn't have to do much other than reduce the amount of radiated noise from both but I can see if they want to model its function mathematically that may be an issue. Although just using set values for convergence zones distances isn't modelling it fully either and just as much a work round so I dunno if they just haven't thought about it
@@CaptinRusko Probably for the sake of processing and the programmer sanity, they either came up with an algorithm that predetermines the propagation paths or maybe they just have some preset paths. I think in their game, it would be modeled as just reducing the decibel level they use in their algorithm.
@@notfastenough3350 Actually almost certainly not if we are talking towed array as the passive receiver. If we are talking hull mounted sonar array then within certain parameters yes it can.
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Like I said. Everybody that dismisses the educational element to computer gaming, needs to have their head examined! Great Vid!
Remember one very important thing : submarines make MUCH less noise than surface vessels.
They therefore have every interest in remaining in passive sonar mode as long as they are not detected.
This also prevents you from finding yourself with a helicopter overhead a few minutes after emitting your active ping(s).
Submarines most often have the ability to precisely locate enemy surface vessels before they are even detected themselves.
Active sonar is only used on a submarine as a last resort, for example (non-exhaustive) to correctly reorient a torpedo during guidance if the target has maneuvered too much and distorted the passive sonar's firing solution.
Therefore, submarines always in discrete mode, therefore passive, for as long as possible.
For surface vessels, it depends entirely on the mission and the rules.
But most of the time they are relatively discreet too and they use the helicopters to do active work.
On the other hand, in hunting mode on identified targets, surface ships always switch to active sonar mode.
Great video!
Subscribers are 90% less likely to be found by active sonar. Subscribe 🥰
let me tell you, doing comments like this won't increase your subs count as much as you think
you must find other ways to make TH-cam algorithm, or people to more likely to pick your video , to get higher views count
@@thanosfickdanah it will, sometimes people just forget
@@vincentvoncarnap unlikely, look at how much likes this comment having right now
only 19 likes , if this comment is effective at attracting people to sub to this guy
it should be way more likes
Still the viewcount is the main cause of high sub counts
Even youtuber like VidIQ telling tutorial how to get more subs to not begging likes or subs using comments, but rather focus on video topic/quality , thumbnail, views instead
@@thanosfickda is this content not high quality?
@@vincentvoncarnap i gonna say, subjective , but will it help him get alot of views? certain and uncertain
But more "clickbaity" thumbnail can work , the thumbnail that make people more likely to click on , like it more like to make people, stop scrolling , and wondering, and click on
from i heard, the thumbnail is very important, even if the editing is good, if the thumbnail is hella bad, it just unlikely to perform well
The retention editing, the type of editing that feel fast pace, like mrbeast videos , showing stuff somewhat like mrbeast , working quite well
but still retention editing from i heard is not enough, you need to do something more different than others , different emotions, different vibe , and of course, i think relatability is also important , but also should related to the video topic?
it is complicated, i think you have a bunch of time to search what make a video famous , reach like 100k views, 1M views
Corrections and clarifications: 1) Sonar Buoys are passive not active. 2) I said radar instead of sonars sometimes. 3) The dev tools always shows a 360 view but my audio on it is more correct than the visual. Submarine based sonars are very directional in terms of how narrow they can see vs sonar domes. 4) Some VDS systems have both a passive and active system !
Also special thanks to JetfireBlack for helping me make the graphics for this video.
Sono buoys can be active IRL
@@josephesther6252 Yep, SSQ-62 for instance is an active buoy and SSQ-53 is a passive buoy (both should be available to the P-3C and S-3A during the 1980s)
The animation of the flooding tanks of the Delta was cool. Can you please do a video on the Oscar using a Tu-95 to find targets and then show us the Oscar launch a volley of Granat missiles and the missiles swarm behaviour. I really wanna see this :)
I hope we don't get an apocalypse before we get to play this game.
@@josephesther6252 : hard on the batteries tho. Mostly useful for scaring the sub you're pretty sure you already know is there by deploying one on-top of them.
I think the whole understanding of "where real life ends and where abstraction begins" is a massive pill that alot of the sim community NEEDS to swallow. I know this is a Sea Power video, but it applies to literally every game out there that attempts to create a simulator atmosphere. At the end of the day, these are GAMES and not 1:1 replicators, they aim to FEEL real, not BE real.
Really been enjoying these guides and love learning these concepts before the game comes out, maybe with your help I won't botch every scenario I play when it's here. Keep being a voice of reason towards the community and all the best to you in the meantime.
o7
Everything you do as a submarine can be a noise event thus giving yourself away. Increase speed, change of course or depth, reloading weapons, deploy or retract towed array, opening torpedo doors or flooding the tubes, firing weapons, etc. Doing any of this in the baffles of your enemy is best time to do them. This is all heard passively.
Blasting away with active sonar gives away your bearing but not necessarily your depth depending on range. Soviets had excellent active sonar as they knew their passive was so poor as was their sound proofing of their own subs. They also didn’t maintain their subs as highly as NATO so once they were 12-18 months old they became noticeably louder. Thus they became very proficient at use of active to compensate.
I hope there will be a full-scale guideline set or something like an encyclopedia to explain all of this step by step. Preferably with some described tactics as well
Very cool, finally something similar to Dangerous Waters in Modern Naval Combat
Command had conversion zones visualised and in a variable way... it was very helpful on detecting subs by pushing toward them from CZ to CZ... and get on top of them before they cold get to torpedo range with your ship... it will be harder to ise that tactic if there's no visual indication on CZs...
Excellent tutorial. Bravo.
Nice vid Enigma. I play a bunch of Cold Waters, and am looking forward to controlling a bunch of Soviet subs in this game. Some important aspects I feel you missed on the sub side, is the fact that using active sonar for any ship is you basically screaming out to the world that you exist, and so if your a sub you generally only ever use active sonar if you have already been detected by another sub and have been fired upon, and you need to locate the enemy sub to return fire. Also Soviet subs have igla missiles specifically to deal with aircraft in game but it's very risky to use them with enemy ships about.
Yes good point on active sonar being like screaming, I should have mentioned that. For Iglas, they do not come on the subs in this game, so helicopters are very safe from submarines for now.
@Enigma89 ahh my bad. Guess I'm used to too much Dot mod Cold waters. Lol
@@Enigma89 Having done a lot of real world helicopter ASW, I'd argue the idea of SubSAMs were/are way over sold. Counter-detction was always the much bigger concern for helos, so no great loss in-game. That said, the detail in all of the various aspects of sonar in this game is pretty amazing.
@@Enigma89I'm still annoyed that Victor 3 class attack sub has no test 71 torpedos, but the Kilo does...the fact that everything, even the flavor text in the descriptions is ported over from the vanilla version of Cold waters, is a little lazy in my opinion, but it does save on development.
Great guide, much do i know. But like always its good to update your brain. Well done. Did wonder when u gonna put out new vids (today is a good day)
Other things probably not modeled are seismic/volcanic activity and biologics (literally fish, shrimp, wildlife can be very noisey).
wouldn't necessarily be so sure, these are the people who made Cold Waters and there are plenty of whales in that game
Imagine a Tsunami destroys the Nimitz O_o
Really really well explained.
As for the shadow zone, one way to assume you are in one as a submarine, is if you lose the contact or the contact gets weaker, you can assume the same happens on the other side. As you say, not 100% that, but... sub hunting/evading has a big guessing component to it.
Also you have to consider that the shadow zone is dynamic and relative to the position and depth of you both.
Ofc this game has depth with a submarine :D
Thank you very much for your nice lesson about Sonar & Sea Power!. Best wishes.
Really really looking forward to this game. I'm more into flight sims but Sea Power looks brilliant.
Very helpful video, can't wait to sink my teeth into this game looks really fun.
If it gets a sequel I would love some kind of multiplayer support.
It's kind of already a sequel to another game made by the same lead developer, Cold Waters. But yes I think it would be a fun multiplayer RTS naval game if they add multiplayer.
Thx. Can't wait to use this information in the game soon!
Rivet Counter.... hehhe love that name for Tedious Pedants
Wow! Great video thx a lot for the explanation... I really didnt know how radar works
I'm so effing hyped for this game 😂
Much learnings just occurred 😎👍
Read RP-33. Boom, now you know sonar. I have been a sonar tech for 9 years. Best job in the world.
I love the perfect rain from Prarie air .. when last PD Trip was clear
I just watched Smarter Every Day's submarine series 3 days ago to pump myself up for this game, haha.
That video is so hard for me to watch because it's my job and I know how it actually works, so it's painful to watch the Chief struggle to get through what I know are very easy answers. He's trying so hard to not get too excited.
Hella informative, thanks!
Thank you for this.
Thank you, interesting video👍
Very helpful starter on sonars. Got a sub.
Tyfys
very helpful thanks a lot!
Well I know that not all sonars can use the convergence zone equally and I HOPE that is modeled in the game.
I love underwater vessels!
Dangerous Waters with graphics up to date^^: ps DW is way more complicated :)
If you want a newer DW, check out "Modern Naval Warfare" by slitherine/maslas bros. They're expecting a closed beta by the end of this year and public release after.
great video sir.
Could you do something similar for radar and EW? Would be great to know what is modelled (e.g. terrain, earth curvature, missle notching, how chaff is modelled) and how to think about it.
red october!
Smashed the buttons, Early Nov. we hope 🙂 is there a manual of ships and weapons we can brows while we wait for the release?
Could you maybe do a Sea Power video with cruise missile Submarines? Have not seen a video like this
Can I have a ping Vasily?
Bro act like we already own the game and teach us how to play it 😅
(Joke’s aside thanks for providing insight! Really anticipated for the release!)
Excellent Video.... I wonder do you know how sea power models RADAR 🙃?
Depending how this video is received, I was thinking of doing a radar one next.
Do it! @@Enigma89
The only thing that will miss in this simulation is multiplayer. Otherwise it would be near perfect.
This is great! thank you. very much looking forward to losing ships and subs in this game when it releases!
I'm pretty surprised you didn't mention the detectability of active sonar. Maybe it's obvious, But I would like to know more about how other ships will hear me and how much it will reveal me when I use active sonar.
Assuming your active sonar’s receiver and the other ships passive sonar have the same sensitivity. The passive sonar will be able to hear your active sonar ping at twice the distance your active sonar will be able to detect the other ship.
@@notfastenough3350 Frequency is the other factor, the lower the frequency the greater the propagation, broadly speaking. Also your answer above is fine for a simplistic overview, but in reality it is a great deal more complicated than that.
@@paulwood5803 Im most interested in what is modeled in the game
@@notfastenough3350 That would be the absolute theoretical minimum, if signal loss was proportional to distance. Signal loss tends to quadratic in ducts and cubic in deep waters, cutting active detection by a lot more than just half of active interception.
Also, the cross section - how much sound you reflect - matters a lot. If the target is nose on, it can get a lot closer before being detected, while still detecting the ping just fine.
The shadow zone will keep your sound from reaching them, but it goes both ways - you'll also lose their active pings until they're really close, at which point their active may quickly find you.
Mr Vasily, I need one ping please
I was hoping to hear if passive sonar could be used to localize contacts. I have not seen any videos where the sensing platform would make a significant course change after detecting a contact, listen to it for a bit, then make a course change >60 degrees across the contact's bearing to refine the contact. Active sonar is used early and often, making me wonder if the passive sonar mechanics aren't working right yet.
Actually we have a very sophisticated passive TMA algorithm implemented on the plotting table, so TMA maneuvers absolutely aid in refining your solution if you play a single vessel. Keep in mind that that the tactical display shows fused contact data, not raw sensor data, so with more than one passive sensor holding the same contact, it will be triangulated quickly.
TMA should be slow and methodical. Record the bearings by hand each minute for no more than 10 minutes. Flip the contact, repeat. Now do some trig and boom, contact location.
Great video have a question on sea power and sonar - do any of the ships in sea power use the Prairie-Masker system to help reduce the chances of detection? Just a curiosity os i have seen a lot of OHP and Ticonderoga videos of the game but no mention of it. Wondering how much they have modeled
Again great video and very helpful information thank you
They don't use them because of how that system works beyond a surface level is classified.
@wiseguy3696 I'd assume the results of how well it works are classified but the principal is pretty well understood one part is changing the speed of sound through the medium, which causes the sound to be reflected back to the hull and not radiated outward reducing the acoustic signature of machinery and the other part provides gasses that act to prevent the total collapse of cavitation bubbles and reduce that acoustic signature also. For the game it wouldn't have to do much other than reduce the amount of radiated noise from both but I can see if they want to model its function mathematically that may be an issue. Although just using set values for convergence zones distances isn't modelling it fully either and just as much a work round so I dunno if they just haven't thought about it
@@CaptinRusko Probably for the sake of processing and the programmer sanity, they either came up with an algorithm that predetermines the propagation paths or maybe they just have some preset paths. I think in their game, it would be modeled as just reducing the decibel level they use in their algorithm.
One. Ping. Only
Based
Where is the link to the in depth analysis on sonar? There is nothing in the top right of the screen.
th-cam.com/video/AqqaYs7LjlM/w-d-xo.html& Here you go, the video was incredible.
Is Anechoic coating modeled?
It is. I left this out video so thanks for asking.
Can your passive sonar lock onto or detect an active sonar?
Passive sonar can detect the direction the active sonar ping(s) came from.
@@notfastenough3350 Actually almost certainly not if we are talking towed array as the passive receiver. If we are talking hull mounted sonar array then within certain parameters yes it can.
Nur ein Ping!
this for PvP