I'm sure Joanna is a wonderful person as evidenced in this talk. And I'm sure she has her foibles as do the rest of us, but I just want to take this moment to thank her for her humility and forthrightness. I was stunned by the depth of her honesty. There was no conceit or vanity she was playing to. An amazing person. Thank you Anthony for all of your contributions. For what it's worth this has been the highlight for me.
She's had to cope with a lot just being gay, and living an entire life of belief in a religion that most interpret as rejecting her gayness. Although, it says it's forbidden for a man to lie with another man... I guess being a lesbian is OK.
Once again, Anthony, I am amazed and in awe. Both at how you conduct this conversation, and at the openness and honesty of your IL. You definitely left the proverbial pebble in the shoe, but I got the sense that Joanna is not as certain about her belief as she imagines that she is. As a gay person in the South she has, no doubt, had to consistently perform mental and emotional gymnastics all her life to maintain any sense of validity in her faith-based viewpoint. She has all the acuity and intellect to easily navigate a path outside of her perceived need for faith. And you may well have ever so gently nudged her and set the ball rolling in that direction. This is certainly a video I can watch over and over and glean something new from it each time.
mikenlynn Thank you so much. Beautifully written. Talks like these are easy when your interlocutor (IL) is honest with themself and with you. And Joanna was being honest and thoughtful. If anyone can come to grips with an untenable belief, and discard it, it is Joanna.
Joanne seems like a really nice person. I hope one day she realizes her beliefs had no bearing on who she is today. It personally took me so long to realize that and now I am a better person because I shed the religious poison.
Good talk. I wonder if it would be worth Anthony doing a video one day to just give updates on all the people (or at least the most interesting ones) he has interviewed who then subsequently contacted him with their thoughts/updates/revisions, etc. This would help in getting a more complete picture of the IL's thought process beyond the initial interview. Perhaps he could show a quick clip of the original interview followed by a summary of their email follow up. Unless of course, the follow ups are relatively trivial and don't add anything of value. I don't know - just wondering.
I'd be interested in that as well. Anthony has really been doing a type of anthropological field work. I'd like to see a database containing belief types, confidence in the belief, foundation or reason for beliefs, then confidence of the belief after exploring the epistemology. Also a list of all the memorized rational statements like, "well you have to believe in something," "the bible is the inspired word of god." "I feel god in my life" "I have faith" etc.
It would be interesting to see multiple cities across states collaborate. Texas is a state with high religiosity so it would be fun to see belief systems from states where a high proportion are more secular and the beliefs held.
It certainly sounds to me like she's been shamed for it... I hope she's found joy and pride in it by now, though, and that both will only grow with time.
A genuinely beautiful and honest young woman and I think she'll figure things out eventually. Her youth is evidenced at the 7:54 mark where she says, "... because life is really long." Her perspective will change with the passing of time and hopefully she may come to realize that a typical human life is anything but "really long" and every day we get is a precious gift that we need to take full advantage of. I truly hope she finds peace with being who she really is and doesn't let her "faith-based" religious convictions stand in the way of finding true happiness and contentment.
Anthony told a story, with 'an outsider's test of faith' implications, as a setup for these questions; 13:55: “Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, if anyone can use it for anything?” 15:07: “If anyone can use faith, to conclude that anything is true, why on Earth would they want to use that method?”
Basically Joanne is confused, but she didn't know she was confused until Anthony got her to think. Basically she's saying, It's faith you know, you can never be 100% sure but I'm 100% sure, I think, am i?
Yeah, I noticed at the beginning that she said something like "you can never be sure", and was glad to hear "I want to say 100 but I'm probably in the 90's" It's weird later to hear her say "I'm completely sure" ("although you can never be sure").
Yeah it seems that she's 100% sure that she can't be 100% sure, but yet she still wants to say she's 100% sure. I'm 100% sure that makes 100% no sense. But is she?
It could be nice if she elaborated on her first "you can never be sure" to understand better what she means by that. Maybe she could hold on to that thought later in the conversation.
This was one of my favorite talks of yours. She seems like a genuinely good and honest person. Those kinds of talks always feel so good, no matter what side you're on!
watching these videos have really made me more open-minded and understanding when talking to theist, because usually it can be so frustrating and you want to just be blunt, get to the point, and point out the facts. but you have to understand this is all they've known and this method allows them to REALLY think and you get to actually have a conversation and see where they're coming from.
She is really awesome. I loved when she said conversation is great, but it's really important to reflect. Wow, so few people really understand how important it is to have quiet time with yourself. I'm not even finished listening to this and already she has really caught my attention. Great conversation.
I would surmise that she's the type of person who values holding only strong convictions, and so the more she pondered over her response of just 90% certainty in belief of her god existing, the more that troubled her. So it was that this subconscious conflict compelled her to change it to 100% in order to squelch that inner struggle. The final question asked was superb in both it's context and timing. I do hope she contemplates that question with full honesty and courage.
That was a wonderful encounter. Unlike so many that cannot fathom the idea that faith may not be an effective way to discover the truth of something, Joanna seems to have the intellectual curiosity to delve into the topic. Bravo to you and to her!
I like Joanna. She seemed to be a very good interlocutor. I really like that she said that she didn't know why faith is a good tool to find truth if everyone can use it to create a worldview. I also like that she seemed willing to think about something that might undermine her faith. Very good interview!
Thank you Anthony, very important work you're doing here. If humanity is to survive the next phase of our existence, it will be through conversations like this one.
As I understand, you upload these videos in part because you want people to see how SE plays out and what works and so on. I'd be interested to know how you approach taking notes during your conversation and how you use them. I guess it's impossible to have a camera on them for the whole time, but maybe you could show your notes to the camera after you are done talking to somebody? Or do a tutorial in which you focus on things you put down in your notes as you go along? BTW I'm watching right now her response to your "promised last question" (outsider test), love it.
Waow, it contrast so much with the conversation you had about drugs. Probably one of your best talk yet. Mid way through I was wondering if you could have gone elsewhere but apparently you really did found what to say in the end and I really do think she'll be able to understand her belief better!
I like her. We need more thinkers. This conversation is going on my (virtual) top list. @Anthony Magnabosco: "If a faith-based foundation wasn't an option for you, were do you think you'd be in terms of your confidence that the god existed." That question was new for me. It seems like a good one. Another one for the toolbox.
Great stuff. I like that so many people do not seem to be aware of levels that I am pretty comfortable on.. makes me wonder about levels I am oblivious to. if there is a level that has nothing to do with levels ? Great people ,great conversation, great job.. hobby indeed my friend...
Thank you for doing this Anthony. You are truly a humanitarian. I just wanted to comment that her reaction to increase the value of her belief mid treatment was just that, a reaction to suddenly realizing that she had think about if the belief in her myths were true in the first place. Not if she was loosing her faith, or questioning her faith as she clearly has been thinking about that. Faith justifies anything but she has not thought about if the whole thing is real.
12:23 Wow, she was THIS CLOSE to engaging with a more sober perspective and just walked past it! People are fascinating. XD 14:07 That IS a good question, Anthony! I love the moments when one can put things in such a way that the limitations and the absence of thinking are highlighted. That's a difficult skill. Her laughter is a clear reaction that something new is being considered. That there are questions and ways to put things on the table that are this powerful is what gives me hope for exercises like this SE thing. But doing this well is not easy. This is also a good example of how wanting to change people during a single conversation is kind of absurd. You can tell different way of thinking was planted in her mind and that she's going to be ruminating on it. Often times you have to let people think things through by themselves and change themselves from the inside. Your best hope really is to put questions in such a way that you lay a seed in there and help them build new pathways in their brains. It's almost like a public service! You're keeping people's thinking dynamic!
May want to call the playlist I watched this through, the top 10. Seeing as how you're at 9 videos now. I look forward to seeing who get's that 10th video. Good stuff Anthony, thank you for doing this and sharing with us.
A little spit and polish wouldn't hurt, but I think we all know the most important part of what you're doing is being out there, for the people. Watching videos and making comments is hardly as rewarding as being face to face with real human beings. There's just no comparing an emote or a like, to a firm handshake, a warm hug, or, matching pairs of watery eyes, coupled with smiles.
I first saw you on Aron's channel. i find your ... gentle approach to be a nice strategy. I think combining Aron's strong scientific knowledge with your Socratic method would be masterful
robrez Thanks. It's all about meeting a person where they are at. Some people are resdy for facts, and some people will close down when provided with them. Thanks for watching. Many more videos to follow.
Another Great Job Anthony. She really needs to get rid of the God belief and replace it with "humanism". While there are churches that accept Gay people, the majority of Christians would look at her as some kind of sinner--unless they actually got to know her, of course. She is bright, pleasant and articulate. My hope would be that she never feel the need to make herself fit in --she is Perfect the way she is--and we Humans are glad to share this time and space with such a wonderful person--we need more like her--E
Great conversation, love the way you handled it. I was waiting for you to drill down a bit more with regards to the faith issue. Is there as reason you didn't ask her if she uses faith for any other aspects of her decision making? What was it in this conversation that stopped you from pushing too hard?
This is an amazing conversation! Fantastic. The “if you couldn't use faith, how high would you be?” question was really inspired! Was that a spur of the moment thing? The new wrap up format is brilliant too, and great that you use it to explain the SE approach a bit, and give practical advice.
Raphaël de Courville Spur of the moment thing. I've been adding post-talk breakdowns to some of my recent talks, but this is the first time I've added a countdown to the breakdown so viewers know something else is coming. Thanks for watching, and please share this one with someone unfamiliar with SE.
Again, we hear an appeal to the complexity of nature as a foundational reason for belief. To me, IMO, this is an indictment of our educational system. If biology, chemistry & physics were taught proficiently, it wouldn't seem so absurd that a natural, mechanistic process could work to produce the natural world. If the beauty & creativity of how nature works, & the understanding of how science was used to come to that understanding, were better known, I wonder how much ppl would use 'nature' as a proof for the super natural. The more I learn about how ingeniously brilliant science has worked for us, the more I realise what incredible explanatory power it holds. It's so much more enticing to learn how a blind, purely physical process can be shown to produce the complexity of living creatures & our cosmos, that's it a real step down to say 'God did it'.
@@algraham7177 while I can't speak for @Deicide, my take on this is that it's much easier, in general, to make a seemingly-plausible defense for a belief that falls on (if we can draw a spectrum) the more vague, less falsifiable side of the spectrum, versus the less vague, more falsifiable side of things. For an example outside the realm of the god hypothesis, it's easier to defend the statement "there could be a marble somewhere in this park" than "there's a marble in my hand". At least if there is no marble. Similarly, the Christian notion of God is more specific, associated with more falsifiable claims, and thus is easier to dismiss -- so if one wants to hold on to the notion of a god, one can slide back to a more vague (perhaps deistic?) notion of god, and defend that as plausible. Note that I don't mean to say you're making an actual compelling argument, just that it's easier to feel justified in defending the position, because it remains plausible even in the face of evidence that might otherwise refute it. (Going back to the marble: "well, maybe it's behind a tree", or "maybe it's under the soil by an inch"... moving the goal posts, the search for a marble may never complete, but one can still cling to the idea that it's there.)
Hey #AnthonyMagnabosco, have you ever heard from her again afterwards? Great video, very inspiring. Thank You very much! Cheers from Atheist Community of Poland ;)
Now I wish I lived near you. I'd love to have an exchange like this. Edit: the question at 13:55 nails it for me. "Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, if anyone can use it for anything?" Well done.
Can I invite you to speak with my entire extended family in MN? I'm 23 and the only people in my life that I've told I'm an atheist are my mother, siblings and a few college friends of which all are Christians. It'll be a year the end of December since I told my mother. That was easily one of the worst days of my life. Her immediate response was anger and maybe even hatred to some degree. However, things went back to normal fairly quickly. I don't have a single friend or family member that is also an atheist that I can talk to (as far as i can tell). I don't know how to tell friends and family my views on religion. It's such a bombshell when everyone in my life has known me to be a person of faith my whole life. But even though I've considered myself an atheist for a couple years, I still play along with everyone's perception of who I am when it comes to religion. To make matters worse, I suffer from social anxiety which makes this decision and process to reveal myself as an atheist even more difficult. But I'm sick of living a lie... Well, venting aside, I really do enjoy these videos Anthony. These conversations are sometimes much more interesting than a heated debate. Although those conversations also need to be had.
rambojack10 Hello there. Thanks for reaching out. Have you heards about Recovering from Religion .org? They might be just the resource for you at this time in life. There are also a ton of atheist communities online these days, so perhaps a Reddit of Facebook page/group mighht be helpful. And if you would like to learn more about SE, please check out the Private Street Epistemology Facebook Group--it just might help improve your conversations with your family members and help you maintain those relationships. I wish you wall the best.
Sweet I like her honesty she said something that I hear all the time if no god then what is life for? The will refuse what they are even hearing in their own mind to keep that hope.I am fine with no after life but so many have a problem how can we help them the best?To fill that void of church?.I had not gone in years when I decided to be public with my lack or belief so it was not a deal but some its their life.I know some that it would truly might kill them mentally.I just want to help them through this as I am feeling better than ever not the constant circular thinking and guilt never being good enough its a bad way to live.
She didn't really go up in the scale...like she said, she's a thinker, and she WILL be thinking about those questions: Is faith reliable...If anyone can use it for anything? and If anyone can use faith to conclude that anything is true, why on earth would you want to use that method? Great questions!
Anthony Magnabosco I saw an interview you did with david pakman. And now i am stuck in a brutal cycle of "just one more video" lol. Keep up the good work
I like her, and love all these videos. I feel like the reason she went up to 100% from 90 is because she realized it's an all or nothing claim to her, logically - cause she's a thinker! I'm not sure if it's something that's been tried, but I tend to think everyone is most scared of that zero percent belief. When you have said you are are in the lower numbers on the scale in other videos, I assume you are talking about whether it's true, not exactly the same scale as you should use in whether or not you believe it. Which is either yes or no.
More than likely a response like that indicates that the person is thinking in purely binary terms. For example, the God either exists or not. Karma is a real phenomenon or not. The election was stolen or not. When we roll out a confidence scale in SE, we're assessing one's personal feeling that what they think is true is true, and that can ideally be expressed on a gradient. So yes, if you ever get someone who muses that their confidence is either 0 or 100 on some claim take time to unpack the purpose and function of the scale.
So interesting that most people; good, intelligent people, hold faith in such high esteem. That last question really is an excellent one mainly because there just is NO good answer...
*So...many...videos* Now I'm gonna have withdrawls if you don't upload these everyday. D: I think spreading out uploads would promote channel growth. (I assume it would be difficult to keep up the current upload pace)
2s7a2m7 It proabably would makes sense to spread these out, but sometimes, because of my schedule, I don't have that luxury, and need to upload them in quick succession.
Thecactigod Oh Yeah, I need to look into that. I've heard of people mentioning that, but the option to do that isn't really jumping out at me. My biggest challenge is finding the time to edit these talks.
Anthony, you said at the end that it was interesting that she said 90% then went up to 100%. Why do you think this is? I've noticed in your other video's that people often express a tiny element of doubt then quickly correct themselves to bring them back to 100% certainty. I'd like you to explore this with people and ask them if they see doubt as a bad thing and if their dogma is designed to stop them making an honest analysis because if they make an honest analysis of their certainty then bad things will happen to them. I think this stops people from being able to give an honest analysis. She didn't really go from 90% to 100% she was at 90% but she was scared of what might happen to her if she wasn't at 100%. It's the psychology of risk aversion. I think you could come up with ways of asking a question around that which will help people to see the road blocks which are inherent in their religion which stop them being able to make an honest analysis.
fireblade2681 In this case, I noticed when I repeated back her previously-provided 90%-level of confidence, Joanna appears to glace at my camera, before correcting me that she is 100% confident. So it is possible that the adjustment was due to a concern for how her lack of certainty would be perceived by others, rather than it not being an accurate representation. For what it's worth, Matt Dillahunty and I (search for our names together in TH-cam and you should quickly find it) delve much deeper into the belief scale, and it might be just the discussion that you are looking for.
I may not be asking this in the proper place and if its been asked before please just refer me, but what do you do when you run into an agnostic or atheist?
Gregory Foster Hello there. Here is just fine. I've compiled my talks with non-believers in the following Playlist (if time for just one, I suggest 'Emily'): th-cam.com/play/PLh10RgQgGuM-TMruPx0vQZ0hq-YyR0j_W.html
zoetic12 Very good quuestion. Yes, I did say something to that effect. I really don't know why I said that. I have no way of telling if person is a good thinker just by their appearance. More than likely, I said it just because by that point in our talk I was so in awe of her ability to honestly examine her belief, and grateful that she stopped to talk with me, that I then created that ill-formed sentence in my mind to show my appreciation to her. When I was editing this video before uploading it I noticed that sentence as well, and thought it was an inaccurate (perhaps even stupid) thing to say. I am also a little surprised it took so long for somebody to call me out on it. So I'll "heart" your comment. Thank you.
What is the best way to respond to someone who says they have researched the bible and they are convinced the bible is true, based on a good historical track back to when the bible was written?
In my experience, people who say that basically mean to say that they've read some fragments of the bible; not that they've read the research that has been done on it by scholars, scientists, archeologists, etc. that put it on the same level of a fairy tale book. There's no way anybody in their right mind can be convinced that Noah's arch existed, the universe is less than 10,000 years old, snakes and donkeys talked and diseases are caused by demons. They should be able to at least tell how what kind of research they did, and that'll tell you right there how deep they went.
Gabe A. you know, they explain away that stuff. metaphor and old testament. either way that discussion doesn't seem as inquisitive than the conversations in these videos - I feel like they would just get defensive
Hi bbqturtle! I would first start by summarizing their claim back to them in order to make sure you understand it properly. Something along the lines of "So you believe God is a real and the things written in the bible are truly his words?" Try to get an idea as to how confident they are. Also, try to identify the method they have used to become so certain. The next step is to ask questions to uncover how reliable their method is. You never want to assume but it sounds like this type of interlocutor will try to claim the bible as evidence. It would be a good idea to ask questions that revolve around the falsifiability of their claims. "If we were to uncover some inconsistencies in the bible would you still be so certain in your beliefs?" Check out "Street Epistemology: The Basics" on Anthony's website. He has a ton of info on there.
If it's a "modern pseudo-religious cherry picking metaphor Christian", then ask him whether he believes that Jesus was truly the son of God, who did all these cheap ass "miracle" things. Ask him why he considers that part real, while at the same time thinking all other magical parts are just metaphorical. If he tells you that he thinks that also that part is to be taken metaphorical, and Jesus just a great "moral" character to follow, then ask him why he doesn't follow Buddha's teachings instead, or Gandhi, or Superman, or Captain planet. Tell him that Chrristianity didn't invent morals, pointing at more ancient cultures, and distant cultures. If Jesus isn't God's son, then why be Christian, what's the point of Christianity, how could he still believe in the Christian God. If he claims that Jesus is really God's son, but all other magical parts are just methaphorical, then in what way did God create the earth, if by physics, then where is the need for God? If he believes that Jesus is God's son, but didn't do miracles, then how could he be God's son. Why would he believe that God impregnated a married virgin girl. Why not believe in Zeus who had fun with mortal women. why didn't God himself descend to earth and directly talk to all humans. Why didn't God appear in Europe. Why did he make it so that Christianity appeared only in one region and waited for his believers to convert others.
May the Science be with You that’s a traditional debate and I agree with the points you are making, however, this method is nothing at all about that kind of talk. I’m not saying your debate style is wrong but street epistemology seems to be way more effective and gratifying for both parties by changing the game. The game is changed by putting the believer in the center and ask questions for them to analyze, you don’t tell them anything. You don’t point out and compare their god with Superman or Captain Planet, trust me, that hardly ever works. With this approach you make their wheels spin and let their doubt and intellect walk the path, if they are not into that that’s fine but most people were discouraged to challenged their views from within their faith and they just need to be presented with a new perspective or a way to phrase those right questions. If you go out there preaching them and telling them how wrong they are you might as well put on a short sleeves shirt with a tie and go knock on doors to “bring the good news”, and we both know what most people think about those fellas. There’s a human, emotional component that for racional logic people (like I believe you and I are) it’s hard to grasp but it works, it’s not “energy” or “souls bonding”, it’s psychology and that’s science, we can see the results in this videos. I like formal debates as well but that’s for a more specific audience I would say.
Let's look more closely at the sentence at around 5:20 where he rephrases what she is saying . In order for you to make sense of all this, you have to have a god belief. It is actually solid and reflects her belief but she didn't like hearing it that way. Also, around 12:40 she freudian-slips the term "faith-based" for "trust" when describing atheists. This could suggest she thinks atheists also need, as she does, something bigger than themselves to make sense of their place in the world. Given that she was discussing non-believers demanding evidence, it reveals that no matter what, evidence or no, you are trusting.... you are taking it on faith. In her opinion, secular demand for evidence is still a religion in the sense that it is a faith-based belief.
trombone7 Interesting observations. I agree with your first assessment that hearig her words come back to her (but rephrased) didn't sit well with her. Rathen than continue to shake-and-bake into another contortion, it may have been better to ask her what was inaccurate about it, if anything. I'm not so sure about your second assessment. Maybe I will runn into Joanna again and we can explore that. Thanks for watching!
Since she is gay, I would have been interested in how she rationalizes the contradiction between being gay, and the sentiment in the Bible against being gay according to some Christians.
I'm sure Joanna is a wonderful person as evidenced in this talk. And I'm sure she has her foibles as do the rest of us, but I just want to take this moment to thank her for her humility and forthrightness. I was stunned by the depth of her honesty. There was no conceit or vanity she was playing to. An amazing person.
Thank you Anthony for all of your contributions. For what it's worth this has been the highlight for me.
She's had to cope with a lot just being gay, and living an entire life of belief in a religion that most interpret as rejecting her gayness. Although, it says it's forbidden for a man to lie with another man... I guess being a lesbian is OK.
to me although she seems certain of her god she still seems a bit lost, lacking in self-confidence.
ThePinkfreud81
I had the same thoughts.
Joanna is awesome!
Have you considered making a documentary?
I love it when you get someone who is honest and really thinks about your questions!
This interaction was truly beautiful; she was great.
great video, I'm sure she left thinking at least, I hope to see a Joanna video #2 lol
Best one yet? Nearly perfect conversation IMO
you should have a million subs, what you do is so brilliant.
Once again, Anthony, I am amazed and in awe. Both at how you conduct this conversation, and at the openness and honesty of your IL. You definitely left the proverbial pebble in the shoe, but I got the sense that Joanna is not as certain about her belief as she imagines that she is. As a gay person in the South she has, no doubt, had to consistently perform mental and emotional gymnastics all her life to maintain any sense of validity in her faith-based viewpoint. She has all the acuity and intellect to easily navigate a path outside of her perceived need for faith. And you may well have ever so gently nudged her and set the ball rolling in that direction. This is certainly a video I can watch over and over and glean something new from it each time.
mikenlynn Thank you so much. Beautifully written. Talks like these are easy when your interlocutor (IL) is honest with themself and with you. And Joanna was being honest and thoughtful. If anyone can come to grips with an untenable belief, and discard it, it is Joanna.
mikenlynn extremely well said. I agree.
Great conversation, I'm learning from you
-Saudi atheist
mohammedtuwaim Wonderful. Very little could make me happier.
12:10 "is faith a reliable way to know if something is true, if anyone can use it for anything?" is brilliant
Joanne seems like a really nice person. I hope one day she realizes her beliefs had no bearing on who she is today. It personally took me so long to realize that and now I am a better person because I shed the religious poison.
Good talk. I wonder if it would be worth Anthony doing a video one day to just give updates on all the people (or at least the most interesting ones) he has interviewed who then subsequently contacted him with their thoughts/updates/revisions, etc. This would help in getting a more complete picture of the IL's thought process beyond the initial interview. Perhaps he could show a quick clip of the original interview followed by a summary of their email follow up. Unless of course, the follow ups are relatively trivial and don't add anything of value. I don't know - just wondering.
Not a bad idea!
I'd be interested in that as well. Anthony has really been doing a type of anthropological field work. I'd like to see a database containing belief types, confidence in the belief, foundation or reason for beliefs, then confidence of the belief after exploring the epistemology. Also a list of all the memorized rational statements like, "well you have to believe in something," "the bible is the inspired word of god." "I feel god in my life" "I have faith" etc.
I'd watch that.
@@magnabosco210: I'd love to see something like this!
It would be interesting to see multiple cities across states collaborate. Texas is a state with high religiosity so it would be fun to see belief systems from states where a high proportion are more secular and the beliefs held.
Lovely lady, I really hope she has never felt guilty (or negative) about being gay.
ImmortalInflames sadly it appears her family has made her feel negative
It certainly sounds to me like she's been shamed for it... I hope she's found joy and pride in it by now, though, and that both will only grow with time.
A genuinely beautiful and honest young woman and I think she'll figure things out eventually. Her youth is evidenced at the 7:54 mark where she says, "... because life is really long." Her perspective will change with the passing of time and hopefully she may come to realize that a typical human life is anything but "really long" and every day we get is a precious gift that we need to take full advantage of. I truly hope she finds peace with being who she really is and doesn't let her "faith-based" religious convictions stand in the way of finding true happiness and contentment.
Anthony told a story, with 'an outsider's test of faith' implications, as a setup for these questions;
13:55: “Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, if anyone can use it for anything?”
15:07: “If anyone can use faith, to conclude that anything is true, why on Earth would they want to use that method?”
Doug Dean Thanks for the timestamps.
Basically Joanne is confused, but she didn't know she was confused until Anthony got her to think.
Basically she's saying,
It's faith you know, you can never be 100% sure but I'm 100% sure, I think, am i?
Yeah, I noticed at the beginning that she said something like "you can never be sure", and was glad to hear "I want to say 100 but I'm probably in the 90's" It's weird later to hear her say "I'm completely sure" ("although you can never be sure").
Yeah it seems that she's 100% sure that she can't be 100% sure, but yet she still wants to say she's 100% sure.
I'm 100% sure that makes 100% no sense. But is she?
It could be nice if she elaborated on her first "you can never be sure" to understand better what she means by that. Maybe she could hold on to that thought later in the conversation.
Crazy prayingmantis lol
Street Epistemology needs to be on tv best thing ever!
What an amazing talk!
Oh man, you're spoiling us today :)
krzyszwojciech Happy Thanksgiving :-)
These longer talks are great!
I love the ideal of two armies about to battle that are both praying to their gods they will win.
This was one of my favorite talks of yours. She seems like a genuinely good and honest person. Those kinds of talks always feel so good, no matter what side you're on!
watching these videos have really made me more open-minded and understanding when talking to theist, because usually it can be so frustrating and you want to just be blunt, get to the point, and point out the facts. but you have to understand this is all they've known and this method allows them to REALLY think and you get to actually have a conversation and see where they're coming from.
this is my most favourite episode yet! so refined, smooth..
zerovacca Thanks for watching!
She is really awesome. I loved when she said conversation is great, but it's really important to reflect. Wow, so few people really understand how important it is to have quiet time with yourself. I'm not even finished listening to this and already she has really caught my attention. Great conversation.
In most common religious theocracy there is a saying that's thought:
"get them by 7, have them for rest of their life"
:'(
I would surmise that she's the type of person who values holding only strong convictions, and so the more she pondered over her response of just 90% certainty in belief of her god existing, the more that troubled her. So it was that this subconscious conflict compelled her to change it to 100% in order to squelch that inner struggle. The final question asked was superb in both it's context and timing. I do hope she contemplates that question with full honesty and courage.
That was a wonderful encounter. Unlike so many that cannot fathom the idea that faith may not be an effective way to discover the truth of something, Joanna seems to have the intellectual curiosity to delve into the topic. Bravo to you and to her!
I like Joanna. She seemed to be a very good interlocutor. I really like that she said that she didn't know why faith is a good tool to find truth if everyone can use it to create a worldview. I also like that she seemed willing to think about something that might undermine her faith. Very good interview!
Thank you Anthony, very important work you're doing here. If humanity is to survive the next phase of our existence, it will be through conversations like this one.
As I understand, you upload these videos in part because you want people to see how SE plays out and what works and so on. I'd be interested to know how you approach taking notes during your conversation and how you use them. I guess it's impossible to have a camera on them for the whole time, but maybe you could show your notes to the camera after you are done talking to somebody? Or do a tutorial in which you focus on things you put down in your notes as you go along?
BTW I'm watching right now her response to your "promised last question" (outsider test), love it.
Waow, it contrast so much with the conversation you had about drugs. Probably one of your best talk yet. Mid way through I was wondering if you could have gone elsewhere but apparently you really did found what to say in the end and I really do think she'll be able to understand her belief better!
I like her. We need more thinkers. This conversation is going on my (virtual) top list.
@Anthony Magnabosco: "If a faith-based foundation wasn't an option for you, were do you think you'd be in terms of your confidence that the god existed." That question was new for me. It seems like a good one. Another one for the toolbox.
Great stuff. I like that so many people do not seem to be aware of levels that I am pretty comfortable on.. makes me wonder about levels I am oblivious to.
if there is a level that has nothing to do with levels ?
Great people ,great conversation, great job..
hobby indeed my friend...
Thank you for doing this Anthony. You are truly a humanitarian. I just wanted to comment that her reaction to increase the value of her belief mid treatment was just that, a reaction to suddenly realizing that she had think about if the belief in her myths were true in the first place. Not if she was loosing her faith, or questioning her faith as she clearly has been thinking about that. Faith justifies anything but she has not thought about if the whole thing is real.
Great video Anthony, especially enjoyed the question at the end and her reaction. I'm hopeful she'll get back with you.
Thanks Anthony. I'm learning allot from you.
Great!
What a wonderful conversation. I hope Joanna is doing okay with her family.
12:23
Wow, she was THIS CLOSE to engaging with a more sober perspective and just walked past it!
People are fascinating. XD
14:07 That IS a good question, Anthony!
I love the moments when one can put things in such a way that the limitations and the absence of thinking are highlighted. That's a difficult skill. Her laughter is a clear reaction that something new is being considered. That there are questions and ways to put things on the table that are this powerful is what gives me hope for exercises like this SE thing. But doing this well is not easy.
This is also a good example of how wanting to change people during a single conversation is kind of absurd. You can tell different way of thinking was planted in her mind and that she's going to be ruminating on it. Often times you have to let people think things through by themselves and change themselves from the inside. Your best hope really is to put questions in such a way that you lay a seed in there and help them build new pathways in their brains. It's almost like a public service! You're keeping people's thinking dynamic!
João Pedro Caetano Thanks for watching and your observations. I think you are correct: seeds were planted, but only Joanna can make them grow.
17:24
"Thanks for stopping me."
There will be time for that.
Another really awesome young woman. Highly enjoyable discussion!
What a great conversation!
"Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, if anyone can use it for anything?"
Quote of the millennium, Anthony. Good work.
this could be the best one I've seen. Got a few good questions out of this one...
WOW, that was an amazing SE talk. Please let us know if there's a follow up!
Roy Wallace Nothing yet, but if she does reach out, I'll likely make a tweet about it.
inspiring thought
I feel so bad for her. When she said her parents said, "I love you, but its not okay" that broke my heart. Nobody should feel bad for who they are.
Aaron Recine Religion is the great divider.
Great convo 👏👏 well done guys!!
May want to call the playlist I watched this through, the top 10.
Seeing as how you're at 9 videos now.
I look forward to seeing who get's that 10th video.
Good stuff Anthony, thank you for doing this and sharing with us.
ABitOfTheUniverse ha ha. Cute. It seems I need to do a little housecleaning, huh?
Thank you so much for watching, and many more videos to come.
A little spit and polish wouldn't hurt, but I think we all know the most important part of what you're doing is being out there, for the people.
Watching videos and making comments is hardly as rewarding as being face to face with real human beings. There's just no comparing an emote or a like, to a firm handshake, a warm hug, or, matching pairs of watery eyes, coupled with smiles.
I first saw you on Aron's channel. i find your ... gentle approach to be a nice strategy. I think combining Aron's strong scientific knowledge with your Socratic method would be masterful
robrez Thanks. It's all about meeting a person where they are at. Some people are resdy for facts, and some people will close down when provided with them. Thanks for watching. Many more videos to follow.
Great video. Your work is inspiring.
And circles would sit around pondering what are shapes for if not to be round?
Tx to Samuel Buisseret (Mr. Sam - YT Channel) without whom I wouldn't have known about this peaceful method of interview which gives me hope now.
Another Great Job Anthony. She really needs to get rid of the God belief and replace it with "humanism". While there are churches that accept Gay people, the majority of Christians would look at her as some kind of sinner--unless they actually got to know her, of course. She is bright, pleasant and articulate. My hope would be that she never feel the need to make herself fit in --she is Perfect the way she is--and we Humans are glad to share this time and space with such a wonderful person--we need more like her--E
Great conversation, love the way you handled it. I was waiting for you to drill down a bit more with regards to the faith issue. Is there as reason you didn't ask her if she uses faith for any other aspects of her decision making? What was it in this conversation that stopped you from pushing too hard?
This is an amazing conversation! Fantastic. The “if you couldn't use faith, how high would you be?” question was really inspired! Was that a spur of the moment thing? The new wrap up format is brilliant too, and great that you use it to explain the SE approach a bit, and give practical advice.
Raphaël de Courville Spur of the moment thing. I've been adding post-talk breakdowns to some of my recent talks, but this is the first time I've added a countdown to the breakdown so viewers know something else is coming. Thanks for watching, and please share this one with someone unfamiliar with SE.
14:17 That thinking pose is so classic. If SE ever gets known by any symbol, it's got to be that pose.
Such a great job here, Anthony!
I feel like I could almost hear her mind blow when she was asked that last question...
Again, we hear an appeal to the complexity of nature as a foundational reason for belief.
To me, IMO, this is an indictment of our educational system. If biology, chemistry & physics were taught proficiently, it wouldn't seem so absurd that a natural, mechanistic process could work to produce the natural world.
If the beauty & creativity of how nature works, & the understanding of how science was used to come to that understanding, were better known, I wonder how much ppl would use 'nature' as a proof for the super natural.
The more I learn about how ingeniously brilliant science has worked for us, the more I realise what incredible explanatory power it holds. It's so much more enticing to learn how a blind, purely physical process can be shown to produce the complexity of living creatures & our cosmos, that's it a real step down to say 'God did it'.
without fail they go from the Christian god is real to a generic god is real when push comes to shove
Would you like to elaborate on that?
@@algraham7177 while I can't speak for @Deicide, my take on this is that it's much easier, in general, to make a seemingly-plausible defense for a belief that falls on (if we can draw a spectrum) the more vague, less falsifiable side of the spectrum, versus the less vague, more falsifiable side of things. For an example outside the realm of the god hypothesis, it's easier to defend the statement "there could be a marble somewhere in this park" than "there's a marble in my hand". At least if there is no marble. Similarly, the Christian notion of God is more specific, associated with more falsifiable claims, and thus is easier to dismiss -- so if one wants to hold on to the notion of a god, one can slide back to a more vague (perhaps deistic?) notion of god, and defend that as plausible. Note that I don't mean to say you're making an actual compelling argument, just that it's easier to feel justified in defending the position, because it remains plausible even in the face of evidence that might otherwise refute it. (Going back to the marble: "well, maybe it's behind a tree", or "maybe it's under the soil by an inch"... moving the goal posts, the search for a marble may never complete, but one can still cling to the idea that it's there.)
Great chat!
Happy Thanksgiving!! :-D Thank you for the video!!!
IT Dominator Giving thanks that I am an atheist today. 🆓
dogless10 XD Giving thanks for my family and for other Atheists.
Loved her!! Great talk!
That was great man. Thank you
Joanna, if you ever happen upon this video, can you give us an update?
Hey #AnthonyMagnabosco, have you ever heard from her again afterwards?
Great video, very inspiring. Thank You very much!
Cheers from Atheist Community of Poland ;)
Now I wish I lived near you. I'd love to have an exchange like this.
Edit: the question at 13:55 nails it for me. "Is faith a reliable way to come to know something to be true, if anyone can use it for anything?" Well done.
Can I invite you to speak with my entire extended family in MN? I'm 23 and the only people in my life that I've told I'm an atheist are my mother, siblings and a few college friends of which all are Christians.
It'll be a year the end of December since I told my mother. That was easily one of the worst days of my life. Her immediate response was anger and maybe even hatred to some degree. However, things went back to normal fairly quickly.
I don't have a single friend or family member that is also an atheist that I can talk to (as far as i can tell). I don't know how to tell friends and family my views on religion. It's such a bombshell when everyone in my life has known me to be a person of faith my whole life. But even though I've considered myself an atheist for a couple years, I still play along with everyone's perception of who I am when it comes to religion. To make matters worse, I suffer from social anxiety which makes this decision and process to reveal myself as an atheist even more difficult. But I'm sick of living a lie...
Well, venting aside, I really do enjoy these videos Anthony. These conversations are sometimes much more interesting than a heated debate. Although those conversations also need to be had.
rambojack10 Hello there. Thanks for reaching out. Have you heards about Recovering from Religion .org? They might be just the resource for you at this time in life. There are also a ton of atheist communities online these days, so perhaps a Reddit of Facebook page/group mighht be helpful. And if you would like to learn more about SE, please check out the Private Street Epistemology Facebook Group--it just might help improve your conversations with your family members and help you maintain those relationships. I wish you wall the best.
13:50 Excellent question sir!
Sweet I like her honesty she said something that I hear all the time if no god then what is life for? The will refuse what they are even hearing in their own mind to keep that hope.I am fine with no after life but so many have a problem how can we help them the best?To fill that void of church?.I had not gone in years when I decided to be public with my lack or belief so it was not a deal but some its their life.I know some that it would truly might kill them mentally.I just want to help them through this as I am feeling better than ever not the constant circular thinking and guilt never being good enough its a bad way to live.
Like always, awesome job.
She didn't really go up in the scale...like she said, she's a thinker, and she WILL be thinking about those questions: Is faith reliable...If anyone can use it for anything? and If anyone can use faith to conclude that anything is true, why on earth would you want to use that method? Great questions!
Is the problem "faith" itself or might it be the subjectivity of the individuals who use faith to justify their conclusions?
dammit i want to play overwatch but ive just discovered your channel and cant stop binge watching
necroryda Hahaha Well, I'm glad you found my channel anyways. How did you come across it?
Anthony Magnabosco I saw an interview you did with david pakman. And now i am stuck in a brutal cycle of "just one more video" lol.
Keep up the good work
Hah! Nice. Glad you found the content interesting.
I like her, and love all these videos. I feel like the reason she went up to 100% from 90 is because she realized it's an all or nothing claim to her, logically - cause she's a thinker! I'm not sure if it's something that's been tried, but I tend to think everyone is most scared of that zero percent belief. When you have said you are are in the lower numbers on the scale in other videos, I assume you are talking about whether it's true, not exactly the same scale as you should use in whether or not you believe it. Which is either yes or no.
Joanna is just the best
Do you ever get bored asking the same questions all the time? Just wondering. I love your videos!
Honesty is great
great starter!
Did record the interview with the grandmother? It sounds interesting.
Nathan Kendall I did. But in the end it wasn't very TH-cam-worthy.
She mentioned the confidence level is either 0 or 100, it would be nice to explore that.
More than likely a response like that indicates that the person is thinking in purely binary terms. For example, the God either exists or not. Karma is a real phenomenon or not. The election was stolen or not. When we roll out a confidence scale in SE, we're assessing one's personal feeling that what they think is true is true, and that can ideally be expressed on a gradient. So yes, if you ever get someone who muses that their confidence is either 0 or 100 on some claim take time to unpack the purpose and function of the scale.
So interesting that most people; good, intelligent people, hold faith in such high esteem. That last question really is an excellent one mainly because there just is NO good answer...
*So...many...videos*
Now I'm gonna have withdrawls if you don't upload these everyday. D:
I think spreading out uploads would promote channel growth.
(I assume it would be difficult to keep up the current upload pace)
+
2s7a2m7 It proabably would makes sense to spread these out, but sometimes, because of my schedule, I don't have that luxury, and need to upload them in quick succession.
Anthony Magnabosco Mmm I see. I'll have to manage my intake XD
Anthony Magnabosco there is an option I'm pretty sure to automatically schedule uploads
Thecactigod Oh Yeah, I need to look into that. I've heard of people mentioning that, but the option to do that isn't really jumping out at me. My biggest challenge is finding the time to edit these talks.
she was great
Anthony, you said at the end that it was interesting that she said 90% then went up to 100%. Why do you think this is? I've noticed in your other video's that people often express a tiny element of doubt then quickly correct themselves to bring them back to 100% certainty. I'd like you to explore this with people and ask them if they see doubt as a bad thing and if their dogma is designed to stop them making an honest analysis because if they make an honest analysis of their certainty then bad things will happen to them. I think this stops people from being able to give an honest analysis. She didn't really go from 90% to 100% she was at 90% but she was scared of what might happen to her if she wasn't at 100%. It's the psychology of risk aversion. I think you could come up with ways of asking a question around that which will help people to see the road blocks which are inherent in their religion which stop them being able to make an honest analysis.
fireblade2681 In this case, I noticed when I repeated back her previously-provided 90%-level of confidence, Joanna appears to glace at my camera, before correcting me that she is 100% confident. So it is possible that the adjustment was due to a concern for how her lack of certainty would be perceived by others, rather than it not being an accurate representation. For what it's worth, Matt Dillahunty and I (search for our names together in TH-cam and you should quickly find it) delve much deeper into the belief scale, and it might be just the discussion that you are looking for.
I may not be asking this in the proper place and if its been asked before please just refer me, but what do you do when you run into an agnostic or atheist?
Gregory Foster Hello there. Here is just fine. I've compiled my talks with non-believers in the following Playlist (if time for just one, I suggest 'Emily'): th-cam.com/play/PLh10RgQgGuM-TMruPx0vQZ0hq-YyR0j_W.html
Anthony Magnabosco awesome tyvm sir! this is very interesting thank you for sharing.
So has she contacted you yet?
Jason camenzind Not as of yet.
It's good to think
She is really smart.
Anthony, Did you say, " I could tell you are a thinker when you came up the trail"? What method did you use to determine that?
zoetic12 Very good quuestion. Yes, I did say something to that effect. I really don't know why I said that. I have no way of telling if person is a good thinker just by their appearance. More than likely, I said it just because by that point in our talk I was so in awe of her ability to honestly examine her belief, and grateful that she stopped to talk with me, that I then created that ill-formed sentence in my mind to show my appreciation to her. When I was editing this video before uploading it I noticed that sentence as well, and thought it was an inaccurate (perhaps even stupid) thing to say. I am also a little surprised it took so long for somebody to call me out on it. So I'll "heart" your comment. Thank you.
On a side note....you put those birds in the tree?
Cloud Of Time Indeed I did. Nice catch. Not many people noticed those.
More like sweet epistemology wootttt
What is the best way to respond to someone who says they have researched the bible and they are convinced the bible is true, based on a good historical track back to when the bible was written?
In my experience, people who say that basically mean to say that they've read some fragments of the bible; not that they've read the research that has been done on it by scholars, scientists, archeologists, etc. that put it on the same level of a fairy tale book. There's no way anybody in their right mind can be convinced that Noah's arch existed, the universe is less than 10,000 years old, snakes and donkeys talked and diseases are caused by demons. They should be able to at least tell how what kind of research they did, and that'll tell you right there how deep they went.
Gabe A. you know, they explain away that stuff. metaphor and old testament. either way that discussion doesn't seem as inquisitive than the conversations in these videos - I feel like they would just get defensive
Hi bbqturtle!
I would first start by summarizing their claim back to them in order to make sure you understand it properly.
Something along the lines of "So you believe God is a real and the things written in the bible are truly his words?"
Try to get an idea as to how confident they are. Also, try to identify the method they have used to become so certain. The next step is to ask questions to uncover how reliable their method is.
You never want to assume but it sounds like this type of interlocutor will try to claim the bible as evidence. It would be a good idea to ask questions that revolve around the falsifiability of their claims.
"If we were to uncover some inconsistencies in the bible would you still be so certain in your beliefs?"
Check out "Street Epistemology: The Basics" on Anthony's website. He has a ton of info on there.
If it's a "modern pseudo-religious cherry picking metaphor Christian", then ask him whether he believes that Jesus was truly the son of God, who did all these cheap ass "miracle" things. Ask him why he considers that part real, while at the same time thinking all other magical parts are just metaphorical. If he tells you that he thinks that also that part is to be taken metaphorical, and Jesus just a great "moral" character to follow, then ask him why he doesn't follow Buddha's teachings instead, or Gandhi, or Superman, or Captain planet. Tell him that Chrristianity didn't invent morals, pointing at more ancient cultures, and distant cultures. If Jesus isn't God's son, then why be Christian, what's the point of Christianity, how could he still believe in the Christian God. If he claims that Jesus is really God's son, but all other magical parts are just methaphorical, then in what way did God create the earth, if by physics, then where is the need for God? If he believes that Jesus is God's son, but didn't do miracles, then how could he be God's son. Why would he believe that God impregnated a married virgin girl. Why not believe in Zeus who had fun with mortal women. why didn't God himself descend to earth and directly talk to all humans. Why didn't God appear in Europe. Why did he make it so that Christianity appeared only in one region and waited for his believers to convert others.
May the Science be with You that’s a traditional debate and I agree with the points you are making, however, this method is nothing at all about that kind of talk. I’m not saying your debate style is wrong but street epistemology seems to be way more effective and gratifying for both parties by changing the game.
The game is changed by putting the believer in the center and ask questions for them to analyze, you don’t tell them anything. You don’t point out and compare their god with Superman or Captain Planet, trust me, that hardly ever works. With this approach you make their wheels spin and let their doubt and intellect walk the path, if they are not into that that’s fine but most people were discouraged to challenged their views from within their faith and they just need to be presented with a new perspective or a way to phrase those right questions. If you go out there preaching them and telling them how wrong they are you might as well put on a short sleeves shirt with a tie and go knock on doors to “bring the good news”, and we both know what most people think about those fellas. There’s a human, emotional component that for racional logic people (like I believe you and I are) it’s hard to grasp but it works, it’s not “energy” or “souls bonding”, it’s psychology and that’s science, we can see the results in this videos.
I like formal debates as well but that’s for a more specific audience I would say.
I noticed you say "the god" instead of simply God for many of these interviews lately. Why? Is it a helpful?
B McD Thanks for asking. For most people, it is a subtle way of distancing the person from the belief in an objective way, without raising defenses.
I wish you would interview me. It'd be a very short conversation though. "Do you have any supernatural beliefs?" "No." "Thank you for your time."
“I need something that’s way bigger than myself”? The world is already way bigger than yourself!
Best case scenario here.
Let's look more closely at the sentence at around
5:20 where he rephrases what she is saying .
In order for you to make sense of all this,
you have to have a god belief.
It is actually solid and reflects her belief but she didn't like hearing it that way.
Also, around 12:40 she freudian-slips the term "faith-based" for "trust" when describing
atheists. This could suggest she thinks atheists also need, as she does, something bigger than themselves to make sense of their place in the world.
Given that she was discussing non-believers demanding evidence, it reveals
that no matter what, evidence or no, you are trusting....
you are taking it on faith.
In her opinion, secular demand for evidence is still a religion in the sense that it is a faith-based belief.
trombone7 Interesting observations. I agree with your first assessment that hearig her words come back to her (but rephrased) didn't sit well with her. Rathen than continue to shake-and-bake into another contortion, it may have been better to ask her what was inaccurate about it, if anything.
I'm not so sure about your second assessment. Maybe I will runn into Joanna again and we can explore that. Thanks for watching!
Since she is gay, I would have been interested in how she rationalizes the contradiction between being gay, and the sentiment in the Bible against being gay according to some Christians.
why is it "Who created nature" why is it a whom? isn't it, a what?