Knock Knock: Spark Map Tuning on the CHEAP!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2025
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Taking a risk to your own car to teach us about knock. Just like the video when you let your car overheat. It is amazing how far you go to teach us. Thanks man !
Mariner Miata Man wait
Which video was the overheating one?
Protip: connect one hose to the exhaust and the other into your mouth so you can gauge the amount of uncombusted fuel in the exhaust.
Instructions unclear, if I connect one hose to the exhaust, and another hose to my mouth, I will NOT be able to measure the unburnt fuel.
If you connect the hose into the manifold and blow that's free boost
If you put the hose from the exhaust inside the car you can keep yourself and your family warm during winter
Touge Season 😆
6:30 even tho this video is 3 years old. I feel so grateful this man is putting his engine at risk. Name one car TH-camr who will purposefully make their engine knock so the kiddies can learn and understand. :( a true hero.
Loved the video. Some extra info for viewers:
Low RPM high load = worst conditions for knock (for example, low rpm spooling turbos full boost by 2500 rpm)
mid-High rpm high load = bad conditions for knock
low rpm low load = mild conditions for knock
tip in enrichment knock = mild conditions for knock
High IAT related knock = bad conditions for knock, in turbo charged cars it can lead to preignition.
super creative man. More dope content. You're gonna go so far Craig
*Kraig
Car Karl *onion
Best video showing real world use of a detonation hearing device, so many other video never showing these devices in use. You even go as far as to show normal running and actual pre ignition. Really a great video thank you
Your channel gets better and better. I know losing an engine is sad but I think it was necessary because it led you on new venture and lots of learning. Best wishes man.
the real turbo yoda
Great video. I have home made knock ears too, one amplified with a mic and the hose variety. The problem is, with these damn BP engine, the natural internal noises are so severe, that at high load / rpm, hearing knock is very very difficult. Good tuners will pull the plugs to find signs of detonation on the porcelain (which is an art unto itself.)
To help with hearing knock, I run my electric knock ears through a band filter (using Audition on my MacBook) and narrow it to roughly 5K - 10K HZ. It helps, but there is a lot of drivetrain noise at that frequency. Planning on doing a video on this, but haven't gotten around to it.
Boosted Miata that's why you use a knock sensor
Of course, but... the stock sensor aint that great especially when you are running an aftermarket ecu like megasquirt, it still takes some tuning to dial it in.
Boosted Miata yes
But they're still better than this
Especially high rpm
Or a noisy car
Yeah they are. When I say tune, I mean adjusting the frequency and sensitivity of the knock sensor. Using homemade knock ears is really a guessing game above 6000 RPM. You may think you hear knock then end up robbing timing for no reason. Or worse, you don't hear it and add too much - boom!
you can find carbon and aluminium residues at the spark plug, as known as salt and pepper.
The best, runing a Knocksensor as Knocksense ms, a video about seting this device and connecting to MS will ve really helpuful!!! For us and for our miatas!!
Few bucks for another 10k views, please greg make for us!!
I'm very novice with cars, but you explain everything super simple. The best car channel I've seen! And I've seen a lot...
I was under the assumption (according to a wikipedia article) that there's a significant difference between pre-ignition and knock.
Pre-ignition is much more harmful than knock, as all the fuel explodes before the spark goes off.
Knock is when the fuel explodes more quickly and violently than it should, AFTER the spark goes off.
Pre-ignition takes a lot more heat than knock takes. you have to have a REALLY bad tune or really bad fuel to get pre-ignition. it can also be caused by overheating pistons.
Sounds legit to me, if more people did their homework there would be less rumors flying around the internet.
Knock is a general term for both events. What you described is pre ignition vs detonation. The important part is that what you do with timing is opposite based on which it is. On a boosted engine if you’re timing is too late you will heat your exhaust valve to the point it can become a source of ignition. This should only be a problem at high boost and most people should not have to worry about it. Pre ignition generally cracks pistons. Detonation over heats the piston and spark plugs. For detonation look for what appears to be “eaten” away piston edges above the top ring and “eaten” away spark plug electrodes.
"At a certain point, the spark plug goes off and ignites that mixture and it pushes the piston back down, and that's what propels your car forward and allows you to smoke mustangs"...
I wasn't expecting that last part and as a result I got a water bottle thrown at me by my roommate because I died laughing.
Well it might do it once!
+TheCarPassionChannel this is probably the coolest video I've watched this year.
I have 2019 2.0T my first turbo car. Thanks for this info. This helped me understand more about my Ktuner gauges!
Very cool informative vid man👌🏼
Kalvin Malli Love your videos man
Another cause of knock is platinum and iridium spark plugs. Copper plugs will work better in any car the only downside is you have to check them and re-gap them every few months. But that only takes a few minutes and it's well worth it.
Any modern engine with a knock sensor will pull a little bit more timing on platinum plugs than copper, especially at full throttle high rpm which is probably why it doesn't bother normal people only enthusiasts.
Is this true? What would be a good copper plug for a boosted miata on stock internals?
All I want to say is really well done! You dont waffle, you are right to the point. I come from the classic car side and I own an MG TD that I keep in top mechanical order and the rubbish you hear spouted in the owners club litterature about ignition timing, it's what we call in the UK "Clod kicker wisdom" good term that isnt it! I have made stethoscope similar to yours many years ago and it works really well doesn't it?
What I do is warm the engine thoroughly and accelerate the car (full throttle in third gear) up a moderate hill through 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm listening for knock and then repeat, advancing the ignition timing by turning the distributor body clockwise slightly. After doing this perhaps a dozen times you will eventually cause the engine to knock very slightly somewhere in the rev range. You know then you have reached the highest possible advance. It works on my RX8 brilliantly as well. Really well done!
UK "regular" has octane rating of 95 RON and UK High octane is 98-99.
Thx Greg for another excellent video, very helpful!
He does do good videos doesn't he. Have you noticed the smart arses trying to knock him down.
It's actually the same in the US, the only difference is the measurement method they use. That's why they have 87 and 93 octane while we have 95 and 98. The knock resistance is exactly the same tho.
You make sample easier to catch ..brilliant way to make me understand.
Best TH-cam Channel ever!!! Really hope you wil get more subs!!
Deserve it!!
Keep up the great work!
Currently in the process of getting my self a miata as a weekend/project car. Biggest thing I'm gonna do is turbocharge it. Being my daily is turbocharged, getting a project car to make fast will be fun as I won't have to keep my daily out of commission just to install a larger turbo.
The barbed fitting on the pipe doesn't seem necessary. Just get pipe that the hose fits tight on and use a clamp or two.
Anyone that will force their own engine to knock just to teach us something deserves a subscribe and a donation as well. I wouldn't do that shit for my best friend or brother that's like nuts dude. You're a hell of a guy hats off keep up the videos. I've learned so so much.
nak QsDSasd Hahaha. Thank you
Thanks for the explanation of why alcohol has a higher octane therefore higher boost levels can be chanced.
We have RON 98 en RON 102 here in the Netherlands .. The standard for normal cars is RON 95... I always put 98 in my Turbo Miata. Sometimes i will fuel up with RON 102 but not every gasstation has this and it's expensive!
Awesome video man, keep it up :)
Samm Dijks Germany is the same. last night 95 was 1,40, 102 was 1,54
lameWB in the US we have AKI 91 and AKI 93 which is RON + MON / 2. So it's not the same octane scale.
what? turbo miata in the netherlands? how do you run that legally?
Simon Heij quite easily. why would it not be possible?
SnabboNL it has to go through the apk keuring (idk the english word) and a change like a turbo won't go through
Hey Greg, love the videos! One thing that I would clarify is that knock actually happens after the spark plug fires- what you are describing is pre ignition and can be a lot worse than knock
You described pre-ignition not detonation.
Detonation occurs when ALL the fuel spontaneously combusts when the piston is right around TDC and is responsible for bent con rods, holes in the top of the piston and bent cranks.
Great video, I also wanted to know what knock sounded like. I'm always getting 1 -2 knocks from a long drive.
This is how i did it about 15 years ago but i used the doctor listening device9cant remember what they are called) from HF lol. I hated that thing because it didn't isolate the noise and they were so uncomfortable. These earmuffs are a WAY better way to listen so you can hear it much better. Good video man!
Detonation is actually a secondary, sharp pressure wave created when the fuel is over heated and pressurized. You are talking about preignition. Preignition can lead to detonation. Sorry not the same thing. Your channel is awesome though!
Spot on!!!
He talks about knock through to be fair. You are correct though, detonation is when the charge explodes rather than burns, and that is usually due to the wrong combination of high CR and low Octane or too high engine temperature, it can be caused by over advanced ignition though, modern engines with high cr can be prone to it. But he is a young guy on youtube who has something to say and that is worth a lot to me.
Correction - excessive knock (otherwise referred to as detonation, pinging, etc.) can lead to preignition
@@BarneyLux You have it the wrong way around. Knock doesn't lead to pre ignition. Pre ignition leads to knock. Its the ignition event that causes knock. I'm sure it was a typo!
@@phillipjones3439 no sir I did not have a typo there. Excessive knock can create "hot spots" in the combustion chamber that can eventually lead to pre-ignition.
I instantly hit the like button when you said "allows you to smoke Mustangs."
Was literally about to continue watching BnB videos to prep myself for my turbo build. I go to the barroom, come back, and see the notification.
You're the shit, Craig.
He seems not to understand the difference between pre-ignition and knock?
I’m having some spark knock right now and this vid helped alot! Thanks so much for the input! It all started a few days after I replaced spark plugs so maybe I should put better or even oem ones in! I’ll try some 93 first tho!
Imagine what the world would be like if Greg uploaded every day. Oh the possibilities!
Greg why not install a knock sensor? you may have said this but I would think it would be more effective at picking it up at certain frequencies
You could but 1. you have to modify the PCB of your MS to do so. and 2. It will not garanty you a better sound filtering.
I haven't taken control of my ignition timing on my MS vehicle yet because the IAC control is somehow based on the ignition timing in the factory tuning. once I can get around that, it's on!
I like your videos and I get that they're geared toward trying to explain everything in layman terms in a short period of time. However, this can easily present misrepresentations of what your talking about. As an example, your causes of detonation can be misconstrued. Fuel octane too low is NOT a cause of detonation. The ignition and fuel tables can be adjusted to accommodate low fuel octane. In order to keep things simple, detonation occurs when the air/fuel mixture combusts too early or too late in the combustion cycle. Octane itself refers to the stability of the fuel, basically a rating that tells you the fuel is more stable and is less likely to ignite uncontrollably. That said, it's not sensible to go hunting for 100 octane in regions where 100 octane is hard to find in order to control detonation (considering octane isn't really much of a reason for detonation but more like a factor)...I would advise anyone to just use a base ignition map and tune the VE tables if doing things on the road, up until the point you can put the car on the dyno.
Also a little food for thought, there's no such thing as a knock free car...unless you're rotary; but most piston engines are knock limited. Ignition timing is VERY hard to do on the road without any sort of knock detection system; and even then you can't get it to it's optimum unless you can hold a certain load point and bring the value to its max torque threshold without the car knocking.
Again, it's just an example to show how it can be misconstrued. I'll venture to guess you can even tune an 11.5:1 build on 87 CA piss gas reliably (would definitely be a waste)...but it's mostly ignition timing that's the issue. A lot of what I've been seeing on the boards is that people run really lean AFR's in their miatas without realizing the cooling properties of running richer mixtures. Decent video either way.
Julexes Delos Santos e85 for life
105 oct minimum!
I wonder how many exploded BPs this will lead to.
William M nah Greg said it's OK aslong as I run race fuel so i bumped my timing to 30 degrees boutta do some pulls
less actually, especially if they do it on a load bearing dyno, You can normally hear knocking with the naked ear but at that point it could already be dangerous for the engine, with these they are called knock ears, You can get professional ones that dynotuners use though expensive with the cheapest set being around $600 if i can recall, Gregs set is like a stethescope style that relies on the hoses to transfer the sound, You can make others with a microphone on the other end which is similar to a bought set, The reason we use these is we can hear pinging just as it starts way before you can hear it without them, Saving you from your engine going knock kock whose there cylinder 4
Amb1u5 afaik when you start hearing knock you are already waaay past MBT supposing that engine is not "knock limited" in that area.. A load dyno is necessary anyway.
if you start hearing the rattles like in this vid i think from memory it can be anywhere between 2deg-6deg from mbt depending on the engine, I thought id just give a idiot proof explanation on why and how instead of writing a 4 paragraph essay, And yes a load bearing dyno is always necessary no excuse for lack thereof god forbid they have a head wind up a hill while towing a trailer xD
Sitting here thinking about trading my truck for my brothers 04 Mach 1 stang, and after what Taylor said in his car list video about not trading down through passion, which is exactly what I would be doing, and you reminding me of my love for miatas and desire to turbo the $1500 Miata I was getting at one point, I think I'm gonna not do it. Besides insurance on that trash would be outrageous and I can't afford that shiz
Did annyone ad a knock sensor to a miata engine and connected it to megasquirt?i want to ad one and want to know what the easyest way is
omg hearing that made hurt. thanks for the lesson and for putting your motor at risk for it. great vids as usual.
Do you think your spark map is pretty safe for a turbo 1.8 on 12psi no dyno near me
I've been told that the oil pressure gauge acts like a knock sensor, dropping as knock occurs. How true is this? If true how much will it move? Is it sudden or slight?
Thanks for sharing!
Knock on high rpm and high load shouldn’t feel like losing a bunch of power in the “knock zone”?
seeing your diy headphones i was wondering would it work if you hooked a oscillioscope to the knock sensor and visually see the knock that way since the knock will create voltage spikes,the bigger the knock the bigger the spikes on scope?
Haha nice setup with the headphones!
cool builds you do, keep it up!
Hey would a too far ignition advance cause a random misfire ? I cleared the code and started running premium and I didn't get another misfire and the care feels better
Thank for the video, great Idea. For about the same price you can get a knock sensor off ebay, and a arduino board to read it, it is what I did for my dyno. I love your idea tho where you dont have to trust a sensor.
Can you shared with me the arduino code?
@@omardelarosa4899 its been a while, check if your knock sensor is analog or digital and just use any temp metering code. You can find those on github
Made this finally today. Definitely works
Laughed hard at this! Another option is to get a bosch knock sensor and an adapter cable from efi express. It costs 50 bucks or so. Add your headphones and laptop.
how much timing should be pulled for boost? Will stock timing be safe for a turbo on an originally na car?
Timing (no pun intended) couldn't be more perfect for this video, I just made some det cans using the hearing aid and cutting/extending the mic method. It's been raining in Norcal, so I haven't had the chance to test it out yet.
What about adding a knock sensor to the engine and then connecting it to MS?
This is super well made!
I love the fact you are BMX'r and tune shit up! FBM, Premium, what's next!
A good place for sensing knock, is colse to the deck, where the heads bolt to the Block, right where the kaboom happens!!....
Would there be a way of determining a pre-detonation event based on a few logged parameters? Say, a random boost spike, a random AFR dip (leaning out) or a logged spark advance jump?
Very cool sir! i'll try these.
Other question: Why is ignition advance above 3000rpm almost always constant?
Hey greg I have a question for you, I have a 2004 mx5 1.8 Vvt but im lookin to boost it and build a motor... my question to you is if I turbo it and then at a later date build with lower compression pistons will the engine still run even though ive changed the compression ratio? I know lower compression ratios means I can make more power but is there any additional mapping required once ive lowered the compression ratio to get it to run?
once you go over the knock threshold, how far below it should you go to be safe? my setup is going to be using an adjustable trigger wheel because i have an nb and im using the stock ecu, and once i get fuel rich enough and things dialed in i want to go from 5 up towards 10 btdc as far as i can to get a little more power out of it despite using the stock ecu.
and i guess how far away from knock is safe?
Commented a few weeks ago about cameras, and you help me out with that! Just like to let you know I've finished my build and made a few time lapses of the build!
Would love to show you seeing as you're the reason why I boosted my mk2!
There's so little information on boosting nb (mk2) Miatas and would love to start to document and upload loads of tricks and helpful information like the oil feed on the back of the head, and wiring etc.
Can't thank you enough, proper happy.
what a bloody lovely intro shot haha
Do you know how the stock knock sensory on the miata works with Megasquirt? Is it reliable?
have you ever set up the knock sensors to be actually useful?
I've been trying to set the knock sensors to be useful on the MS3 but no one really has done much work in this area that I can find.
Awesome video man! very informative and well explained. Thank you
Which product do you have and what program is used?
Does the color on the map let you kn when your running rich or lean? I am starting to tune but i haven't found anything about the colors or anything on the map tune. Thanks.
What if I get 102 octane? Is it bad or good for the car? Or isn't it even worth paying extra for it?
Thanks Greg for the informative video. The forums say megasquirt isn't that good with knock control, what do you think?
Awesome video thank you so much... I'm totally going to do it. this would apply to so many vehicles out there far as tuning goes and doing it on the cheap or if you don't even have the ability to run a knock sensor. I have an early megasquirt v2.2 240z l28et. Give me a couple weeks and I'll come back here and leave another comment on how it went.
how'd it go dawg
Hey Greg, I've been following your videos for a while now, and I'd like to say thanks. Your content is usually much more informative and clear than others. Actually, your videos are 90% of the reason I'm now looking for a MX-5 (that's what they call Miatas in Europe).
Unfortunately modding is not allowed at all in Belgium. They might even fine me for an aftermarket air filter, so fitting a turbo to a Miata will have the cops chasing me like I'm a criminal. Anyway, keep up the great work ;)
really cool idea I'm glad you showed it.
Great video. No one is doing stuff like this.
I second (third?) the request for a Megasquirt Bluetooth video. Also, something on MSDroid and/or Shadow Dash MS would be informative and useful. Keep up the good work.
Very helpful for a lot of noobs... Great job
detonation is the combination of heat, high rpm and high torque.
your engine does have knock sensor from factori and you can solder a whire to your mspnp pcb and it wil work trust me
DrMike gas pwred the 1.6 has no knock sensor
that sucks i wil send you my if i can cuz im not using it
Can we have a video on your ignition table install?
So advance as far as possible without hearing knock? I can't do a second gear pull in my neighborhood, do I wear these things around town? Lol!
What flex fuel sensor do you recommend running with Megasquirt? I will be boosting my '93 Miata with a Garrett GT2560R, and want to use e85. I'm almost done with the DIY Megasquirt kit. I believe you are currently using a GM sensor on one of your cars? I prefer to use a part that has been track tested. Please advise. Your videos have been very informative and recently subscribed.
+Sound&Fury I've never used a flex sensor, but I will be using a GM flex sensor on the new motor
I sure would like to try this!
haha those are hilarious never seen anyone with those made before. seem to work well though. another cool informative video
How do you bolt the jack input onto the block?
How is that fitting in your block? Is it drilled into it?
Dude, Love your content. I've been following your channel for a long time and found your videos very helpful. I have just MS my miata when you started the series. But I've been stuck setting up the "Closed Loop Idle" (CLI) on my miata. Do you run your cars in "Open Loop"? I know you don't Run AC and you probably don't need to use CLI but living in the Caribbean no AC is not negotiable for me. If you do run CLI or know how to set it up. Please do a video to help a Noob with it. I've searched High and Low and no body seems to know how to Really do this properly. Not even miataturbo.net. So I know I can't be alone in this CLI setup mess. Also I would like to know what Tips you have on using Tuner Studio's "AutoTune".
Thanks for the content (and discounts for parts. I've used a couple of them :D)
E85 has an octane rating of anywhere from 104 to 107. I recommend tuning conservatively when using E85 due to this fact.
I recommend tuning it very aggressively compared to 91 octane, lol
I don't know why I said conservatively lol
I am ready for you're vvt tinning videos.
Without measuring in-cylinder pressure or at the very least utilizing a load-bearing dyno it's a guessing game trying to find MBT. If you don't know what MBT is, you shouldn't be adjusting your spark maps.
good video. alot of people boost a car and think rich AFRs are what makes it safe.
pulling timing is just as important
Dropped a LIKE
How do you actually tune ignition on the road though? Keep advancing until ping, then dial back a bit?
A little bit of comparing your ignition maps with similar setups, using knock sensors or det cans like in the video and as you said, dialing it back after you hear the slightest knock, maybe using virtual dyno if possible, and usually after finding out your max timing, pull it back a bit to be sure
Pipe fitting? Into the crankcase?
What is sequential spark?
how much power could you get out of a stock na 1.8 miata set up? im just curious to know how much power you could squeeze out of the little strait 4, you could use whatever for the example like forged rods pistons forced iduction etc. (also sorry if this is a bit confusing, i have no idea what im really talking about)
cars67833 With forged internals and boost the Miata 1.8's can do 450 or more
450 or more from a 4-banger!!?? Holy crap!
450 or more from a 4-banger!!?? Holy crap!
Big thank you from Germany! ;)
Hey Greg. Question for you. When boosting the Miata would I still need an FMU even if I use 450 cc rx7 injectors ? I am trying to run a gt3076r.
African Dude if you're running on a standalone like megasquirt, no. But your stock Ecu isn't going run 460s anyways
Hey Greg, is that your actual spark map for broke and boosted?
Proper good editing
More Vids Bruh!!! In the process of a 01 build my self! Keep it up!
Fun and informative video, thanks!