Does Spidey's Web-Swinging 'Make You Feel Like Spider-Man'?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
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The new Spider-Man game on PS4 is being praised for making you feel like Spider-Man. But what does that actually mean, and what does it mean for web-swinging?
Spider-Man game code provided by Sony
Sources
How Web Swinging Works In Spider-Man | Game Informer
www.gameinform...
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance)
Marvel’s Spider-Man (Insomniac Games, 2018)
Assassin's Creed Syndicate (Ubisoft Quebec, 2015)
Call of Duty: WWII (Sledgehammer Games, 2017)
Red Dead Redemption 2 (Rockstar Studios, 2018)
Dishonored 2 (Arkane Studios, 2016)
Titanfall 2 (Respawn Entertainment, 2016)
Hitman (iO Interactive, 2016)
Fallout 4 (Bethesda Game Studios, 2015)
Batman: Arkham Knight (Rocksteady Studios, 2015)
Devil May Cry 4 (Capcom, 2008)
Super Mario Odyssey (Nintendo, 2017)
Sunset Overdrive (Insomniac Games, 2014)
Superflight (GrizzlyGames, 2017)
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Eidos Montreal, 2018)
Uncharted 4: A Thief's End (Naughty Dog, 2016)
A Hat in Time (Gears for Breakfast, 2017)
Bionic Commando (Grin, 2009)
Overwatch (Blizzard Entertainment, 2016)
A Story About My Uncle (Gone North Games, 2014)
The Free Ones (Farsky Interactive, 2018)
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (Beenox, 2014)
Ultimate Spider-Man (Treyarch, 2005)
Mirror's Edge (EA DICE, 2008)
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 (Neversoft, 2001)
Skate (EA Blackbox, 2007)
Rocket League (Psyonix, 2015)
Music used in this episode
The Golden Age (Spider-Man OST)
Holes (Donut County OST)
City of Hope (Spider-Man OST)
The Golden Age (Spider-Man OST)
k. Part 2 - 01 untitled 1, animeistrash
Other credits
Spider-Man: Homecoming © Columbia Pictures and Marvel Studios
The Amazing Spider-Man © Columbia Pictures
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3...
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Thanks for the comments on this video. I appreciate all the counterpoints and arguments. Less so the Dunkey memes :P
I do find it weird that many commenters see web-swinging as simply a means of getting between fights - as if combat should be the focus of the game, and not web-swinging. Maybe my tastes are just out of sync with the average gamer but I’ve played hundreds of games about beating people up, and not as many about the thrill of movement, physics, and swinging about.
If that doesn’t gel with a story about a Spider-Man 8 years into being a hero, then change the story, not the gameplay! Make it an origin story, or kill off Peter Parker an hour in and switch to a newbie Miles Morales!
Honestly that last suggestion is what I was thinking was going to happen in this game. Kinda surprised it didn't happen (yet anyway). But yeah, web slinging is important for Spiderman games because it's the thing Spiderman does-- it's his main method of transportation. The keyword, though, is "transportation" it's just how he gets around. The main deal with Spiderman, as with most superheroes, is fighting crime; so fighting should probably be the focus of the game. I would want to see a Spiderman game that puts more focus on the web-slinging, though; it could be interesting to play.
I've always enjoyed the complexity of swinging in this little known about fan-game, found here fenglee.com/game/aog/ . It's glitchy and needs to be opened in internet explorer, but it might just be exactly what you're looking for Mark
Movement is a mechanic of the game, and the more interaction and overlap of other mechanics, the better, imo.
A low skill floor and a high skill ceiling is hard to pull off, but it seems like they've gone with low for both, which is a shame because they could have done so much more with it, just like you talked about. Would have been cool to have "style points" where J Jameson pays you more for cooler (harder) mid-air pictures or something. Sick video as always!
To be fair to the guys at Insomniac, this was their first swing at a Spider-man game, and a lot was riding on them getting it right! I'm sure 'accessibility' was a keyword during development, and they wouldn't want to scare off more casual players (a big market for the likes of a huge IP like Spider-man) with traversal mechanics that were complex enough to risk breaking the flow of the key web-swinging move that basically defines Spider-man as a character, as you practically point out near the end of the video.
All that being said, they have room in the inevitable sequel(s) to, if not revamp the whole mechanics for fear of alienating previous players, at least add in plenty more mechanical depth now that they have got the basics covered. Or not, because why fix what ain't technically broken, if not exactly the most interesting version of what it could be?
I think it's a conscious choice they made to make the game appeal to the widest possible audience, I think the general idea is that with web swinging being the only viable way to get around while still keeping the "spiderman feel" they were chasing with the game they had to make it something that anyone could easily do from the start so that it wouldn't frighten off the more casual gamer spiderman fans, I do wish they had made the skill ceiling higher though, but with such a large budget game I can understand why they made the decisions that they made, spiderman is a widely loved character across quite a few demographics and so they had to make the game just as widely accessible to everyone, and as a visually impaired gamer I don't mind that accessible to everyone approach as not all games are easily accessible to me so I understand the feeling of not being able to enjoy a game due to developer thoughtlessness
I like this channel.
It's true tho
And all I got to do is press play, yet it still feels rewarding
Mark Brown's videos make you FEEL like a toolkit.
Except live streams. He is all "eh, what's this? Whatever, send next game..."
Rest is mostly quality videos.
*LET you feel like a game designer
this video speaks to my soul
No u
What brings a hotboy like you around to these parts?
Hey, It's MA BOI HotBoi. Thank Dog for your existence.
I love you. Your videos are the fine dining of youtube gaming commentary.
why is south dakota so good send help
I believe a major benefit of the easier web swinging is that it makes the traversal in general much more soothing and relaxing. It works well with what Insomniac is going for though the precision in the controls is a bit lacking for some of the challenges that the game wants you to do. The drone challenges in particular exposes some of those kinks.
Yep. Traversal was "downtime" for me. I actually enjoyed just going around holding the button with a certain rhythm and alternating between moves just to see how fast I could go. I enjoyed so much that I actually grabbed every single backpack as soon as they were available, which allowed me to play the entire game with the best costume :P
IDK, I see what the video means and I think it's a valid viewpoint, but I don't think the game is worse for being the way it is and I don't really think it would be better being the way the video proposes.
I agree with what you saying and i want to add that another benefit for less technical webswinging is that it more accessible for younger and/or less hard core players. I think with a character as popular as Spider-Man you need consider a whiter range of skill set from potential players and make sure all parties can play and have fun.
I do hope they expland of the swinging and transversal mechanics a little more but i am very happy with that they have right now
There's a middle ground. Spiderman 2 required a bit more finesse but that made it more zen in my opinion. The swinging in Spiderman ps4 is borderline boring.
@@lederp42 haha thanks you nailed. Stupid auto correct
The fact that he never even acknowledges this angle in the video is a complete joke. Before you can talk about whether the web system should be changed, you have to discuss what role it plays in the game overall, and the answer is that it's largely just for the low-stress aspects of the game: moving between missions and exploration. This should be completely obvious, and as soon as you acknowledge it, a lot of the angles he tries to bring up don't even get a second thought.
The webslinging is so fun in Spider-Man that the only reason I used the fast travel was to get the trophy. After that...I swung everywhere.
man, I try to play through all my games without fast traveling at all. I rarely succeed, but if you can do it successfully, then I still have hope
@@jerrjohnpresti
I mean, as far as open worlds go, Spider-Man definitely has the best-feeling traversal and it isn't even close. The only fair comparison, I feel, are the arkham games, but otherwise that no other open world game really makes moving around feel fun.
aint no way im fast traveling with a movement system so awesome
Confirmed: Mark Brown watches Dunkey.
This was truly the first strand-type spiderman game
In the comic it's often said that Spider-man likes to web-swing to free his mind and relax a bit, specially when he is so used to it after some years (like in the game), so making the swinging challenging would ruin a bit that idea.
Yet in spider man 2 there was still a difficulty curve with the swinging and consequences.
@@christopherwashi so then why should there be difficulty web swinging in this one?
Amalgam Games
They aren’t supposed to be similar games tho lmao, or in other words played similarly
I think that's probably part of the justification in the mechanics of SMPS4, but I feel like on the other side of the coin, swinging still takes calculation and risk, and there's no way he wouldn't be doing some crazy stuff to excite himself. You also have to consider swinging as a gameplay mechanic too, and I disagree that more challenging swinging would take away from the idea, especially because he's been doing it for eight years and is a master at it. In general the concept is that swinging is therapeutic, but that can be both relaxation and exhilaration. I think implementing a menu with options to customize what swinging style/mode you want (relaxed, advanced) so that it'd operate like SMPS4 swinging or SM2 swinging as extremes with different options you can toggle on and off would be the way to go.
@@jonathanw3909 I don't think different options would be necessary, instead the game will simply have a higher skill ceiling for swinging, so essentially you will be able to still swing the way you do in spider man ps4, but now there are more advanced moves and tricks that require more timing and positioning, the game could incentivize you to do these by giving you points that fill up your focus.
If the game really wanted to make you feel like Spiderman, it would force you to go to school, keep up social relationships and perform club activities, while only being Spiderman when you can afford to without drawing suspicion. Maybe one day, we'll be good enough to deserve Persona Spiderman.
And when it comes out...
You'll never see it coming.
There's a "Batman Ninja" series on Netflix.
- I'm just saying, Persona Spiderman could happen.
Might end up being.... Frikkin Boring
In this, he's probably not in school anymore, even if he went to university. 8 years since he became Spider-man, innit?
And don't forget, that you need to earn money. Deliver the pizza before it gets cold! Don't do rolls when landing on the ground or else the pizza gets squished.
th-cam.com/video/czTksCF6X8Y/w-d-xo.html
I think it's quite fine for web swinging to be easy. You obviously need challenge in a video game for it to be rewarding, but that doesn't mean *every* part of the game has to be challenging. In Assassin's Creed Origins for example, a lot of the fun obviously comes from stealth and combat, but it can also be really enjoyable to just explore the setting of ancient Egypt. They made a whole DLC that let you just walk around and learn facts about the stuff you're looking at. That DLC didn't provide any kind of challenge, you literally just have to walk and press a button to view information, but it was enjoyed by a lot of people because challenge isn't the only thing games have to offer. Similarly, I imagine a lot of people will have fun just swinging around New York City for the sake of it. An experience like that can be therapeutic and a nice way to break up the action. Make it nothing but non-stop challenge that doesn't let you do anything without putting a lot of effort and concentration in and you've got a game that's great for enthusiasts, but probably not so enjoyable to a lot of people.
Mitchell Dale thank you! He literally berates the game for not having interesting web-swinging platforming BUT IT’S NOT A PLATFORMING GAME
Comparing this to all those platforming games is pointless.
that's a really good point actually. Webslinging is basically downtime most of the game so it should probably not feel stressful. If the game threw you into combat and mechanically challenging web stuff all the time it would likely be too stressful to be any fun
I agree! I think the challenge of combat and stealth sections combined with the freedom of easy movement makes for a nicely balanced game. It makes getting to any of those challenges feel less like a chore and more like simple exploration. You can take up challenges, start up the story, or just wave to random civilians at the drop of a hat. And that works as a good break in the action, letting the player breathe and take in all the details without having to focus on combos or proper momentum based physics. It might not be the most engaging act but it is one that let's you enjoy New York without a care in the world which I think is exactly how Spiderman feels while swinging. Well, okay, maybe not "without a care in the world", he's got a lot on his mind haha.
webswinging in this game is kinda wack. feels hella artificial
@@RenTelomere He actually reaches the same conclusion as Insomniac at the end of video. Making swinging difficult is absolutely a terrible idea in a Spiderman game with 8 years of experience. It should feel like walking for Spidey not something that has to be mastered throughout the whole game. This video has no point.
Shout out to videogamedunkey for singlehandedly ruining the ability to use a common phrase in video game journalism forever. Nobody noticed how much this game made reviewers feel like Spider-Man until he showed us the light.
UltimateKyuubiFox He’s one of those TH-camrs where you can tell he tries so hard to be funny
@@ttime441 You really make me FEEL like a have cancer
@@anibalrodriguez2626 Another side effect I forgot to mention, you forget how to use grammar correctly by watching him.
@@ttime441 When you have to talk about grammar mistakes because you're out of arguments, classic
@@anibalrodriguez2626 At least I didn't just straight up copy his jokes, are all his viewers not capable of thinking on their own?
This is one of the few videos you've done where I just fundamentally disagree. Complexity and challenge can certainly make systems more satisfying, but I don't think being difficult inherently makes something more satisfying like you seem to be describing. I had immense fun swinging around in Spider-man because of the level of control and precision I had. If it was more cumbersome and difficult I don't think it would have been nearly as fun to move around the city and would have gotten more in the way of the game's flow. Though, I do at least agree that fall damage should still have been a thing.
Ultimate Spider-man's webswinging is more challenging to use, but that doesn't make it more fun or guarantee satisfaction. In Ultimate Spider-man and Spider-man 2 which basically have the same kind of web swinging, I didn't really enjoy moving around the city as much and honestly sometimes dreaded it. Contrast that to Spider-man 2018 where they give you a fast travel option that I never really used (and from what I hear most people don't ever use it either).
I think the real issue is the lack of missions centered around swinging. It's the main traversal method, but as you said only those side missions and two story missions really test you on how well and fast you can swing. I think if more of the game was designed around that, it'd be a lot more satisfying for you or players that wanted some more challenge. Give more missions that play off that and maybe tone down the speed boost from point launch and it'd be an almost perfect use of the swinging.
@@shavon I feel like you are just being contrary for the sake of it here, maybe nostalgia is making you feel like ps2 Spider-Man has better swinging mechanics but i have recently played both and Spider-Man ps4 swinging is infinitely more engaging, rewarding and visceral. No doubt about it!
I mean the easiest thing to do is just have an option in the settings which makes swinung more complex for players who want it. I know I do.
Game is shite
@@davemi123 after recently replaying it, I prefer SM2's web swinging. The animations aren't as good and it's a little rough around the edges but the physics are so much more satisfying, the wall running actually takes practice, you can take fall damage, and there's more variety in possible moves.
I hope Insomniac's next game retains the fluidity and visuals of PS4 but with the physics, wall-running, and added abilities from Spider-Man 2.
I agree with you, I have to websling in the game constantly, i feel like if I had to concentrate everytime I did this I would have been hella annoyed
My knee-jerk reaction to your critique of the web slinging was: “Huh, doesn’t Mark typically judge a games’s design choices based on how well it achieves its set design goals instead of suggesting how it could be better?”
But then I thought more of it and realized it’s probably more that this is the first time I disagreed with your suggestion. I like how effortless the web slinging is because that makes me feel like Spider-Man as opposed to something like me driving a Warthog terribly in Halo (thus making me a terrible Master Chief). It depends on the AAA game, but for some like Bloodborne I like challenge, others I just want/expect to have fun and get through everything. Spider-Man was a fun game to relax with and not get too frustrated with.
Oh, and in response to you Twitter thread, I don’t think it’s necessarily because you’re getting older. I’m nearly 37 and I love indie games for their unique design risks, but I also like popcorn Uncharted-like games too!
And like the developer said this is when Peter has been Spider-man for 8 years he's now very experienced at traveling the city and I'm sure he doesn't even think that heavily about what he's doing.
I would say it's better to have a simple way to "feel the fantasy" so that everyone can get immersed in to your game world... but add advanced mechanics that let the player do "cool things" with practice. But don't hide them in a skill-tree. Make them available from the beginning and create scenarios that enable the players to discover them "organically" (like riding your shield in Breath of the Wild, for example).
Another option is to create an advanced, more complex control scheme that you can activate if you want more...err... control. Like choosing between auto or manual gear switch in a driving game or, in the case of Spiderman, giving you the option to shoot webs with a dedicated button for each arm or one button for both.
it's funny you mention it, since they did exactly that in the Spider-Man 2 movie game. there were simple and complex controls you could choose from, but you can definitely do more interesting things with the complex scheme.
although i really love the web swinging in spiderman ps4, i'm all for the idea of an update/patch later on that adds this, or add this into the sequel installment
This is kinda how Super Metroid works if you’ve ever played it. There are the standard movement options that are clear and necessary to get around the levels but then there are also things like bomb jumping, wall jumping, sprinting, etc. that you can do from the start of the game but just don’t realize that can make you feel more like a badass bounty hunter as you progress through the game.
I think the skill tree is good enough, you are introduced to the skills slowly, and are able to try out a new one and decide whether you prefer it or not, all while you're improving in the use of that complex combat system.
Having unlockables can also be very engaging.
In a game with simpler combat and gameplay like Breath of the Wild, which has no combos or hack & slash elements, a skill tree might be detrimental. I also think that Spiderman wouldn't work with the organic growth you mention, having everything from the beginning might be overwhelming from the beginning, and the player is not motivated to explore the entire moveset. It wouldn't be better.
Hmm... this is similar to upcoming Ace Combat 7. They have 2 different flight schemes: Normal and Expert.
DCS, simulators, and general flight players would feel at home with Expert scheme that allows you to roll your craft. Normal on the other hand, "limits" your roll so going left is literally going left, not rolling left.
They've made the dark souls of feeling like spider Man
I'm surprised there was no mention of the physics based web slinging of Spider-man 2, where you can just hold onto the same web and twirl yourself around if you wanted to, it was kinda silly but fun
That's the biggest problem with the new one. I loved holding on to the web and swinging up to the top of a building or turning around and swinging back the way I came.
yea, or even just smacking into the ground if you were low enough and the web was too long, sure it slowed the flow of things but it also made things interesting
I got hopeful when he started mentioning older Spiderman Games that Mark would bring up that one, That one had very little air control, so you had to plan ahead if you wanted to make sharp turns. It seems like a step towards like what Mark wanted.
not to mention how well thought out certain aspects were, like if you swung under a lamp post, your web would get caught and stick to it, so then you're just swinging from the street light!
U CAN do that, just have to find the right spots to do it
2:00 I disagree about Arkham series combat being too simple.
Enemy types are extremely varied. Knife wielding and taser thugs can't be dodged with a single button press. Armored and shielded enemies can't be hit normally. Attempting to fight multiple enemies with firearms in hand to hand is suicidal. Titans and mini bosses require a lot of punches or stuns. Medics revive and buff their allies with tasers.
These enemy types may be sparse on Easy, but on Hard they will appear in every encounter right from the start of the campaign. In hardcore your counter indicator is disabled in addition to taking more damage. The combat system in Arkham series is pure genius. And playing at harder difficulties makes it that much more satisfying to outsmart these criminals with gadgets and takedowns.
Completely agree, you can tell he probably played one of the games on easy or didn't put to much time into the series. I beat Asylum and City and though I didn't complete them on harder difficulties I still knew right away he was unfairly oversimplifying it.
@@retrosoul8770 Yes, thank you. So many people make this criticism on Arkham and it makes no sense. The combat in Arkham is just as complex and deep as Spiderman's, and actually more difficult IMO. In Arkham Knight its waaay more complex than in Spiderman.
Right, it's easy to just watch a video (with good production value) and take whatever the person says at face value if you don't have first hand knowledge yourself and just accept it as fact. Too many ppl jumping on band wagons without really knowing what their talking about.
Word, my favorite thing to do in arkham city was to quickly throw a batarang at a guy with stun sticks or a knife to shut him down instantly. Such unique tactics are nowhere to be found in spiderman, arkham combat is so much more varied.
As someone who’s played both Spider-Man and Arkham games extensively I can say that the Batman games combat system while arguably having less components is actually harder. This is because on the hardest difficulties there isn’t a warning for when enemies attack you. The gadgets in Batman are far less OP than in Spider-Man and you need to be able to build up combos in quick secession before you can knock out thugs. Just pressing the Y button doesn’t do anything, and the varied enemy types makes things more tricky in both games. Batman’s attacks do let you snap to enemies, but if you aren’t careful you can accidentally punch a taser guy, or another goon that will break your combo. Spider-Man also has a snap to enemies feature with the Y button. In Batman there are also effectively two dodge buttons, there’s Y which is counter and A which is dodge. You need to quickly know which button you have to hit depending on the thug. Knife wielding thugs require careful precision to counter, and is extremely rewarding when you time all three swipes perfectly to get an instant KO. Batman’s combat is also less forgiving with the attack button, because you have to wait for each attack animation to finish before dodging, in Spider-Man the attacks are way quicker. Batman’s combat is far more rhythm based and reflexive to me, while Spider-Man’s is a bit more three dimensional with aerial combat, and cool gadget combining. They are both good systems I just find Batman’s combat harder. The stealth in Batman is also way more challenging, thugs will light you the fuck up.
It's important when designing game mechanics to think about the purpose behind them. In terms of puzzle-solving in the confines of a strictly designed level (like the drone chase side missions) a mechanic like swinging should be carefully restricted and purposeful to make it feel challenging and give a sense of achievement upon completing the course - but in terms of open-world traversal I feel it shouldn't be too much of a pain since you will spend MOST OF THE GAME doing this. Looked at from the point of view of pacing, swinging around outside of missions should feel relaxing and fun to let the player blow off tension between missions or else risk building player frustration too high - but that doesn't mean there's no challenge to it at all.
When you give a part of your game a failure state you are essentially teaching the player (by negative reinforcement) the way in which your game is intended to be played. However, there are many different shades of failure: there's the explicit Game Over screen, there's the implicit failure state (like slamming into a wall while swinging but being allowed to continue playing, maybe only losing a bit of health as a slap on the wrist measure), and then there are failure conditions the player makes up on their own based on what *they* think is the way the best way to play the game.
This third kind of failure state is, I feel, entirely adequate for a mechanic like web-swinging in an open-world context. At its core there is little challenge to it and even a new gamer can probably do the basics easily enough, but an experienced player will start to see, in a Mirror's Edge Parkourvision™ kind of way, the route they want to take unroll in front of them as they take it: swing down this street, run along that wall, whip around the upcoming corner, point launch off a street-light, use the momentum to swing up high and land on top of a building. The satisfaction in such a case derives not just from whether or not the game says you did well, but the artistry and ease that you can inject into what at its most basic level 'hold and release R2 from point A to point B'. In other words the traversal is simple to use, but has adequate depth of expression to lend a sense of mastery to the player who wants it.
As far as my subjective opinion goes, I feel that Insomniac did a fine job with Marvel's Spider-Man's traversal system and I'll tell you why: never before have I looked at the map of an open-world game, looked at where I was and my objective all the way across the map from me and thought 'travelling there myself will be genuinely more fun than just waiting through a fast travel loading screen' (and admittedly the fast travel screens in this game are very fun). When an open-world game's traversal is so good that fast travel seems more like boring downtime than a godsend to cut short a tiresome journey you know the devs have done something right.
Kaz exactly; this is like saying the gliding is too easy in Arkham City
Totally agree and well said: "the traversal is simple to use, but has adequate depth of expression to lend a sense of mastery to the player who wants it...When an open-world game's traversal is so good that fast travel seems more like boring downtime than a godsend to cut short a tiresome journey you know the devs have done something right."
Most underrated comment
I’m sure this is a great comment but I don’t feel like reading an essay today : )
Accessibility wise I agree, and I think the game does ultimately benefit from how easily the player can maneuver. But I do think that beyond this first game, they'll need to do more. Miles Morales added some depth with a whole slew of air tricks, but if speed, more manual control and interactivity with the environment, and a higher skill ceiling aren't implemented, the system will be stuck in a shallow state. If you consider Spider-Man 2, it opted for much more versatility and immersion, even if it was occasionally frustrating or the learning curve was high. Given the new generation beginning, I do think it'll be possible to implement and in some ways merge the two opposing systems, and thus become even more accessible to casual players and players who want a more immersive and challenging experience. Insomniac has done such a great job with precision and fluidity in the swinging that I think they certainly have room to make it slightly more skill-based, and I don't think it should and would necessarily become a pain.
The game’s system, while I might concede is not perfect, does in fact have a high skill ceiling. The way you’re looking at it, a game can only reward skill by punishing lack of skill and rewarding through points or secrets. The incentive for skill in swinging in this game is much more intrinsic. Sure, there is a low skill floor, but there are so many maneuvers and stunts that require practice and experience to make it look smooth and that you actually meant to do that.
Try doing a drone challenge without spamming the web zip. Really try to maintain top speed while darting through alleys. Try to learn the exact timing for grabbing onto the side of sign without touching the building it is attached to. The game, like so many other great traversal systems, has so many tricks that it will never tell you about, but will allow you to discover if you put the time in.
Though, I would like to have more activities that require you to be more skillful, that’s not necessarily a problem of the system itself. I think your points about combining combat and swinging at the end could be improvements for a sequel.
I think in superhero games there's definitely something to making the player feel somewhat confident right from the start, so the basic movements should be pretty easy. Web swinging is also just how you get to waypoints on a big open world - you never just walk on the ground - so it shouldn't be too demanding to do some standard swinging. As you work through the game you can take it upon yourself to swing with more style and finesse if you like, hooking around corners and diving low and wall running here and there, and having that just be a choice for world traversal seems right for Spider-Man. I would be down for a little more swing-combat though.
The “let you vs. make you” is a genius way to parse this argument. Would you rather someone LET you eat, or MAKE you eat? The former is voluntary , the latter is force.
We totally need a "makes you FEEL like Spider-man" genre...
spider-man-like
nice one
The new "X is the Dark Souls of Y"
or just MYFL, short for "makes you feel like"? It'd fit Batman and Spiderman in there. Maybe also Assasin's Creed, Lara Croft, Watchdogs, and the Witcher, Star Wars...
Basically most games that start out with a setting, atmosphere or story as a core idea and then get gameplay mechanics that fit to that and are decently fun slapped on top.
I don't know of a category exists yet that catches these games, if not, this is a pretty useful category!
Gravity Rush, if you squint. Arguably the Arkham games. Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, once you get the dual hookshots, sorta?
12:25: "...the skill ceiling in Spider-Man is still pretty low compared to other traversal-based games."
I'm not sure it's fair to call this Spider-Man a "traversal-based game". Yeah, the traversal is unique enough to put on the box art, but it seems like the main focus is on the combat encounters you web-swing between. The web-swinging makes the open-world elements more fun and provides a change of pace between challenging fights.
I'd argue that games should generally specialize in one type of challenge, or at least a few types with shared elements (e.g, the similar types of skills [planning, risk management, etc] required for XCOM's strategic and tactical sections). Some people want to play a challenging beat-em-up, some want to play a challenging platformer, but far fewer want to play both at the same time.
All games should have a good mix of fun and challenge. For a Spiderman game, I think the basic webswinging should focus on fun instead of challenge.
Satisfying, hard to fuck up, traversal + accessible yet complex, high skill-ceiling combat = The right decision.
Without a doubt
I think Insomniac nailed it with the swinging. It can feel relaxing and meditative even. Open world games often have fast travel because traveling can become tiresome. Not so in Spider-Man. The travel from A to B became a great thing to do between missions, so you never use fast travel anymore.
A more challenging swinging sounds interesting, too, though. An option for this might be fun for replayability.
With you there.. I actually completed the game to 100% and discovered I had missed the 'take the Subway 5 times' achievement.. had to go use the fast travel 3 more times just go get that. =)
A game that has the fast travel option but players don't want to use it because the travel itself is so much fun! Imagine that.
Compare it to, say, Witcher 3, which is a great game in many other respects but if I fast traveled to see that lady blacksmith in Vellen once I did it a hundred times. It was an unfortunate necessity and consistently pierced the illusion of what was otherwise a convincing and meticulously constructed world.
Not having to sweat the controls the 99.9% of the time when it doesn't matter was a good trade off for the handful of times that I wish it had been more precise.
It's like saying the driving in GTA isn't as tight or precise as the driving in Forza, or the shooting isn't as precise or punchy as Rainbow Six. Really I think the compromises of an open world game are responsible for this. You need a suite of controls that handle an extremely wide variety of activities with as little fuss as you can muster because you don't want to burden someone who came to your game for something else. There's a lot of moves in Spider-Man, sure, but you can get through the game with only a handful of them, so the people who want to swing and sight see can do so unimpeded. And the swinging is simple to not get in the way of the combat junkie. No mission is on a critical timer so the explorers can explore, but no side quest is required so the plot focused players aren't slowed down.
You do have to realise this is partially a game for younger people
@Illford i do see insomniac taking much further risks in Spider-Man 2... especially when it comes to its narrative and tone.
This is the first time i completely disagree with Mark Brown's video. In the comics and films, Spider-man has no trouble web-swinging. It comes easy. Fighting however doesn't. And that is perfectly represented in the game. Failing in a fight is fine, because we see Spider-man fail regularly too. To 'feel like spider-man' means that controlling spider-man while web-swinging should be easy. It shouldn't be challenging in any way, because that would ruin the immersion.
He did mention that quote from the developers saying that was what they were going for, so I think he knows that. This channel talks about game, so the majority of the video was probably about the web swinging as a game mechanic.
It's a video game and part of the fun of a video game is the challenge. Also we see in spiderman 1 he struggles to web swing so you're wrong on that. There needs to be more challenging web swinging because it adds more depth to explore with traversal.
@@Dan-si8fp in Spider Man 1 he's literally just gotten his spider power. In this game he's already 8 years with his powers
Sound Enthusiast There is a learning experience for the swinging, and once you mastered it, it’ll become easy. And in the past people hated the other SpiderMan games for not having momentum in the swinging, so they fixed that issue and people loved it
@@ThatWasPrettyFunny In this game he's Spider-Man for about 8 years now. It would make no sense for him to have difficulty to web-swing at this point.
I’m bad at video games. I bought my first console at 30 (no muscle memory from years of intense gaming as a kid) and I have a demanding job and other shit going on so my gaming time is limited. So I played Spider-Man on Friendly and I got my butt beat so many times.
I’d run up to a bunch of goons, get beat down and have to learn how to approach the battle better. I did the second boss fight (Electro in the bank) and had to learn how to use the pulling tings down with L1 and R1 skill properly. I got to the demon hideouts and had to figure out how to dodge instead of just hitting people. And then during the Electro/Vulture fight I had to learn how to fight in the air. It was challenging and when I finally figured it out, rewarding.
But the traversal was awesome. It felt easy right from the start so yeah, it felt like Spider-Man right from the start. When I woke up from another beat down being able to swing up and away so easily put me right back into the game.
Honestly if the web swinging was hard like the combat was, I don’t think this game would have been as fun to me. And maybe I wouldn’t have finished it and wouldn’t feel as accomplished as I do now.
I feel I have to defend Arkham's combat although I do agree that there are elements to it that make it a bit unrealistic or player friendly. Like the magnetic snapping to enemies could have been made harder, and when it comes to making that more realistic there could've been some animations to make it more convincing - like using his grappling hook quickly to make him propel towards them (perhaps this would have a brief window of vulnerability too, trying to attack enemies further away might allow closer enemies a quick attack).
But as the game progresses the enemies mix up with specific ways to take them down. Spider-man takes some of these ideas like melee weapons, shields and guns so you have to think about your attacks and not just blindly punch. It gets to a point where I've seen players get beaten down hard because suddenly the flow of combat is more challenging, and feeling like Batman suddenly becomes less so. I'd say more experienced players will overcome Batman's obstacles easier than Spider-man's though, even on harder difficulties. Thankfully Batman has a mode where you can remove the counter symbols and that really starts making Arkham more challenging. Personally I enjoy Arkham's combat just a bit more than Spider-man's because when you use everything the game has to offer and take down rooms of people with speed and efficiency, that's when you get this real kick of the power fantasy. Spider-man is definitely more technical in that you have less methods to fall back to safety and it requires more precision and I really praise it for that.
Something that wasn't talked about was the predator sections of these games. With these parts of the games I feel like it's the complete opposite in that Spider-man's stealth is almost barebones compared to Batman's and it's much much easier to accomplish. There's rarely a situation in Spider-man's predator sections where you feel challenged, and if someone notices you then if you have the option you just swing away and come back like nothing happened. It's also very easy to take people down here and in most cases all you need to do is zip with triangle to insta-takedown a thug and sometimes even combo that. I don't have anything against these sections - they're still enjoyable and feel good to do. Yet they're a part of the game where it doesn't feel like a lot of effort to do. Where as in Batman these sections are a joy all of their own with many many ways to take people down, not much of a safety net if you screw up and there are repercussions for that (guards will look for you or even pair up to make it harder to take them down). There's also so much variety to the areas in Batman's predator sections and it feels really rewarding to be able to clear an area without being detected. I'd say this is probably the best example of where the developers got the Arkham games very right and kept them challenging enough throughout. It's probably the only thing about Spider-man I wish was more expanded upon.
I also agree that the swinging in Spider-man could have been a little more technical so that a bit more skill allowed you to move as he does, but it's something I rarely thought about since there's not enough gameplay tied to swinging being demanding (like you said). I guess it depends how you feel about traversal in a game. You could sort of compare it to how you could roll your car over in GTAV so you weren't accidentally turning your car over from a small jump or something, it's clear the developers just want you to move around without having to find a new car all the time...even though the game is called Grand Theft Auto. Some people are going to find that really great so they can just get on and play the game, but others will find it breaks immersion and takes some of the fun out of the game. It's not as drastic as that in Spider-man but there probably could have been a little player interaction so that being potentially stopped while swinging felt a tad more rewarding.
The auto-snapping to enemies in Arkham quickly becomes a downside once armor, shields, and tasers are introduced though. Blindly hit those, and you'll drop your combo, and take damage if taser. The biggest problem with it is just the absurd animation for it imo, but even that's quickly forgivable.
I really enjoyed Spiderman, but the only things its combat had over Arkham's were that guns & grenades are much more common in SM (increasing the challenge some), and you had to actively manage your health (Spidey is more fragile than Bats, but could spend meter to heal). Spiderman doesn't really have the challenge mode outside the main game, but even if it did I couldn't see myself spending the hours there that I did in Arkham's challenge modes (Iceberg Lounge!).
The snap was because if u miss you lose your combo so if there Was no snap to target I never would be popping off 100 combos like it was my job. In spidey they allow to miss punches and continue your combo so no reason to snap to enemies you know?
Brett von Klock That's a pretty bad reason to simplify combat. The 100x combos might feel satisfying the first few times, but like you said, you were popping them off like it was your job. The cathartic feeling was gone because counters and auto-snapping made combat too easy and there was no reason to experiment with gadgets and different styles. I'd say Sleeping Dogs' combat took the core of Arkham and improved it by making enemies more aggressive and resilient and by adding environmental hazards and weapons you could pick up. It made combat feel like an actual fight, whereas Arkham can often seem like Batman having a ballet performance.
I got through Spiderman PS4 without using any gadgets other than normal webs and impact web, occasionally breaking out the web traps in stealth.
Arkham on the other hand has various enemy types that are specifically weak to certain gadgets (armor weak to electrogun, electrified enemies weak to grapple, charging enemies weak to batarangs), and allowed you to use your combo bonus to overcharge gadgets, which was often much more useful than spending it on the standard takedown.
I haven’t played Sleeping Dogs, so I can’t comment there. But in Arkham vs Spiderman, Arkham has the deeper combat system, no contest.
@@nolaffinmatter I don't have any experience with Arkhams combat so keep that In mind all I want is a friendly discussion.
You mentioned that specific enemies have weaknesses and you have to utilize gadgets accordingly to get the best results. But that stands the same for Spider-Man I mean you could through the game without using gadgets that's fine,but can't you do the exact same thing?
"All of this means that, for a while, you probably won't feel all that much like Spider-Man. You'll look like a bumbling fool, getting bonked on the head by street punks, fumbling finishing moves, and just sort of punching thin air."
That is EXACTLY how I imagine Spider-Man.
Meh, at his younger years.
Yes...
But where insomniac's Spider-Man is at? Hell no.
*Sees Title*
Goddamit Mark
This comment makes you *FEEL* like a guy who's sick of dunkey references.
@@impurple8242 Mark was the chosen one, why did he fail on me?!
He set himself up
It's like that quote from someone I can't remember now, "Some players just want to boot up a game and feel like a hero".
Consider the target audience. Yes, Spider-man as a game is appealing to hardcore Spider-man fans, and yes, those people would probably tolerate a difficult traversal system. But in recent times, the reach of Spider-man (and dare I say, superheroes in general) has grown way larger, to include people who are new, more casual fans of the genre. *Those* people need their choice of stepping into new territory to be validated through feel good mechanics more than the hardcore players do. The hardcore guys probably got a satisfying fix from the game itself.
Consider the target audience for Mario Odyssey. I would be hard pressed to find anyone who seriously considers that to be a game just for hardcore mario fans. Yet, at 12:00 Mark talks about how Mario Odyssey still has a rewarding traversal system: by making easy to use traversal strategies mix well with difficult to use ones. Feel good mechanics do not preclude high skill high reward mechanics.
But yet again consider the two. Mario games add a new gimmick to distinguish them on top of level design in each different series, and until odyssey, Mario's only known method of traversal has been jumping, like he always does. Simple jumps are an easy foundation to build off of, and so it was possible to introduce new mechanics through cappy, and design levels that rewarded intuition, rather than simple levels that allowed players to exploit the new movement system. Spider-Man however, is completely rooted in web-swinging and acrobatics. That has never changed. The character is portrayed doing this effortlessly, and a more experienced spider-man should be less technical. The fact is that web-swinging should always be the easiest thing to do in a spider-man game, and though this game does have traversal that can be improved by experimenting with it, the level designs never pushed you to be faster or smarter, but that's fine because being spider-man and fighting his enemies while knowing their years of history is more of an experience, and that comes with it's restrictions. Mario can have these amazing mechanics, because it has the freedom of being able to innovate without first conforming to or straying to far from a source material. I think I said too much.
Something to note lore-wise is that Spiderman's spider sense does direct him towards safe places to shoot his webs towards while swinging, and just generally helps guide his actions and movements in day to day life when he isn't deliberately ignoring or dismissing it, to the point where he can fight mostly unhindered while blinded and even unconscious when he's gotten used to being Spiderman, so webswinging being simple and relatively effortless for an experienced Spiderman seems about right.
You bring a lot of very interesting points Mark (as usual), but I don't particularly agree with some of them.
First: Batman Arkham combat system. Honestly it feels weird to see such a criticism of the Arkham combat system pretty much right next to complimenting Mario for requiring only a basic moveset to complete the game, but a much bigger mastery of mechanics to be actually skillful at it - because Batman has.... well, precisely that! The basics of the game combat are quite simple, just like you mention, however to keep that combo going and to get more points (especially in challenge modes) you need mastery of all the Batman's toolsets and even use moves like cape stun when you usually wouldn't. I encourage you to watch some extreme challenge mode videos to see what amazing things players pull off with Arkham combat system that a newbie would never be able to perform (but that wouldn't block him from completing the game of course).
Second: The comparison between Spider-Man swinging and most of the other games grappling hooks that you've mentioned here. The big, big, BIG difference is the fact that you're comparing an open-world game to mostly linear-based levels that create challenges SPECIFIC for the swinging. In Spider-Man swinging is not just about challenge, it's THE main traversal mode across the open-world. I agree that bits that challenge you on that traversal are nice, or adding a more in-depth trick system or something, but the core HAS to be pretty basic otherwise players will be at a constant pressure. Imagine if in Breath of the Wild walking on ground would require you to methodically and at correct spots have you press buttons to perform right and left leg move buttons otherwise you'd keep stumbling and wouldn't be able to just go around the world efficiently. That would probably be fairly uncomfortable, right? Well, for Spider-Man walking IS swinging.
Well said
About Arkham: I think Mark overstates the simplicity of the combat system. When fighting the most basic enemies, you can win by just hitting the punch and counter buttons, but that's only true for the beginning levels in the games (i.e., the easiest parts of the games). Each Arkham game quickly starts introducing enemies that make it much more difficult to pull off combos by forcing you to stun them first, jump over them, use certain gadgets, and so on.
"Imagine if in Breath of the Wild walking on ground would require you to methodically and at correct spots have you press buttons to perform right and left leg move buttons otherwise you'd keep stumbling and wouldn't be able to just go around the world efficiently. That would probably be fairly uncomfortable, right?"
It would at least give me something to do while exploring Breath of the Wild's barren world devoid of cool things to find.
It is a common criticism of the Arkham games that they will allow the player to play poorly, undercutting any sense of drama or stakes, giving players no reason to care about what they're doing. The thing is, after every fight scene the game does grade your performance, rewarding a higher combo and greater diversity of gadgets used. I guess the player has to Want to perform flawlessly, because the game certainly doesn't force them to. Completing a fight scene in one continuous, unbroken combo is really satisfying though.
For Spider-Man, swinging is walking - sure. We’re Spider-Man, makes sense. But there sure is a lack of ability to skip and run while walking in this game, all we can do is walk - with a stick
You are the only person I've seen to give this topic serious consideration and critic, which is why I value your channel. Please keep up the amazing work!
This review makes you really feel like you're watching a review.
Too bad this isn't a review
Yeah, it's really more of a design analysis focused on a particular mechanic.
2:40
Thug: was that supposed to hit me? Well ok.
*falls on ground unconscious*
Be honest. If you see a man in spandex do a spin kick in midair on top of a car in front of you. You would fake being unconscious as well
I'm glad they give you confidence through web-swinging and make you earn skillful combat. It makes it much more approachable for casual fans who might be put off by a more difficult traversal. However, including some more mastery, either through having the Spectacular difficulty remove some of the swinging automation and air control in addition to tougher combat, or by a greatly expanded trick system, would be nice. That said, I just finished my 100% on Spectacular and I never got tired of web-swinging, but I also pushed myself to swing with finesse and master all the challenges. Unfortunately, yeah, many challenges are best handled through liberal point launching.
i would really love it if you could revisit this video with Spider-Man 2, and look at how the swing assist feature works. I think it’s a really interesting addition that helps make the swinging feel more real, and I love how they tied it in with a slider to make it an accessibility feature.
Anyone remember that Attack On Titan fan game that was amazing at the grappling mechanic? You could still play if you weren't very good at using the swinging mechanics but when you got skilled at the movement you actually felt like Spider-Man
It wasn't a fan game though
Edit: Oh, I see what you mean now
@@tomstonemale Yeah the one made by feng lee if anyone else is curious: fenglee.com/game/aog/
Grapple hook in the Roark's AOT is the best example of complex, challenging yet fun gameplay.
Dude I was thinking of that! Oncr you get the hang of it you feel like an actual AOT Soldier. I wish there was a mode where you could kill titans tho
I can't believe that you talked about web-swinging and Spider-Man for over ten minutes and never at any point mentioned the momentum based web-swinging of Spider-Man 2. The best web-swinging mechanics Spider-Man ever had.
Absolutely baffling.
Spiderman ps4 holds that title now
@@TheGamesaga No it doesnt not even close, junior. Spiderman ps4 has no momentum unlike ps2.
@@Dan-si8fp Stop looking at everything through your nostalgia goggles
@@Dan-si8fp Well upon retrospection, i do see your point now. I remember hating how web zipping brings your momentum down dramatically also the speed of swinging feels inconsistent. Could never fully master it like spiderman 2
I'm just happy to see an honest, well thought out, well made singleplayer game, with enough accessibility AND challenge as well as a journey/adventure/drama to carry the "game" parts through.
It's like in the PS2/GC days when you plop the disc in and have great time.
I've said this a lot, Insomniac Games are very good at making "videogames", the product.
I think it's kind of ridiculous that we think that the concept of fantasy always has to be attached to the concept of challenge. Fantasy is about putting you in a different world, scenario, or role. Challenge is about making you overcome arbitrary obstacles. They're not the same thing, and we don't have to pretend that we always need one in order to achieve the other. One of my favorite games of all time is Sly 2 because it made me feel like a thief and that game was not that hard at all. Obviously that reading of Sly 2 was my subjective take on it, but I think it would do us some good to think about fantasy and challenge as separate ways of engaging a player just as much as we think of them together.
This. Is. A. Video. Game. Games are meant to be played and won. And what keeps you from winning? A challenge. You want fantasy? Go watch a movie
@@daniel092550 you do know that people play games for different reasons right? Some people play for story. Some people play for the worlds. Some people play as a way to hang out with friends. Saying "GAMES ARE ABOUT CHALLENGE" doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like you can't see past your own sense of taste in video games. Also, the whole "what is a game" debate has always been a waste of time. Go check out that old Extra Credits video if you want the full run down.
No need to be rude
@@FranciscoMartinez-369 sorry about that. It's just that I see this argument a lot and i just find it annoying
"Challenge is about making you overcome arbitrary obstacles."
No, it's about making you overcome obstacles.
I love that you started the video by commending how good are the fighting mechanics, and then slowly went into criticizing the swinging mechanics.
it helps the viewer understand that you are not bashing on the game, but specificity discussing a certain idea in it.
I see what what you’re saying, but I’m not sure I agree with your premise.
Easy to pull off = not satisfying, is not always the case, not to me anyway.
I don’t find the Batman combat system “unsatisfying” and I don’t feel that the traversal/air movement in Spider-Man is “to easy (for its own good)”
Other than that; an amazing video as always!
I found the combat in the Arkham games plenty satisfying, though admittedly seeing Batman do 15-foot lateral leaps as I swapped from enemy to enemy was ... odd. Spider-Man is a far better fit for that type of combat system.
NiceTryLaoChe That part I agree with lol, the Batman fighting system would be a little more believable to have punched the air when you miss
Exactly.I never found batman combat "UNSATISFYING".He complained abt too easy and generous counter times.
Just crank up the difficulty...it will disable counter warning then we will see how easy it is!!!
How easy it is to maintain perfect combo then!
I got my ass handed to me like million times.(Playing first two games helps though.)
Mark Brown always seems to think games are better when they're more difficult, more complicated, and have more obscure mechanics and I disagree with that stance completely. But he still makes really great, high quality videos and points out interesting things in games that I don't notice.
I hated the arkham combat, it was too braindead but simultaneously too hard. the timing was way too difficult for me, and it was allll based on timing. I want it to be based on reading their animations, having hitboxes mean something, and work like a normal brawler game, but nobody wants that anymore. they want QTEs and counter-buttons. the combat in the spider-man 2 movie game might not have been perfect (and I hated its counter button reliance too) but it felt solid and your punches and kicks meant something.
I think the biggest thing is you have to aim. the whole point of 3d gaming with an analog stick is you should be able to point towards an enemy and go there.
some sections or challenges that would require a higher skill in web swinging would be a great idea (similar to prototype), completely agree
but as for transportation, rather than swinging being easy because he's already experienced with it (being spiderman for 8 years), I would argue that it should be easy (but still fun, as it is) just because it's exactly that, the normal way of navigating through the game
it shouldn't be thought as a special mechanic, but as the 'walking/running' mechanic in another game, which you do 90% of the time, so it shouldn't feel like a challenge
let's take zelda as an example:
are there more ways of going from point A to point B and some of them really cool and challenging? yes, but 'running' is the default way, you just press a button (witcher 3 even has auto run for the horse)
it would become tiring at some point; it's like games with lots of backtracking and enemies that respawn after every little action and it just feels like a waste of time instead of a challenge
as long as navigating through the game isn't one of the main challenges, I think it should stop at "easy and fun"
again, missions/bosses/challenges that creatively include the transportation mechanic as a challenge (as the ones you described ) are awesome
iamacsel87 yeah the Spider-Man transportation is like a stylish, entertaining flow state, that’s what it should be.
I wanted a more in depth trick system with moves that were possible through different controller inputs similar to skate or something, I think that could motivate players to play as a more stylish spiderman than your average joe 🤔
Definitely agree here
Yeah, as much as I adore the web swinging, I was definitely disappointed with the tricks. The front flip is literally the only one I use
I think this is where more complexity and difficulty could be added. Perhaps different tricks that can only be done after certain moves (i.e. swing into one trick, launch yourself into another, etc) and particular tricks could set up being better positioned for moving around. The skill barrier is still pretty low but you're just raising the ceiling on what can be done and allowing for more play with the system.
Mark, thank you soooooo much for talking a bit about "A Story About My Uncle"! I've been wanting to playing this game again for 4 years but was never able to remember its name. Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much! ^_^
The one thing I would have liked to see from the web-swinging was impact damage. If you jump off a sky scraper, Spider-Man should die. It doesn't have to happen that often, or really make the game more challenging, but once a player saw that happen, it would stick with them. That threat would give stakes to the movement, and it would make it exciting to swing fast and low, because there's a real pressing of danger. The kind of death-defying excitement would MAKE the player feel like Spider-Man.
Yeah, No.
The last thing I would want is have the pacing of a bossfight like Taskmaster be ruined because he kicked me off the roof.
Or Sable agents shooting me with that grapple and I just plummet.
I'd like that. Would mean no swinging out of the roof bounds on specific fights, but without invisible walls, just the threat of a 30-storey slam. I never fell out anyway, so no big deal.
for what it's worth, Spiderman can survive those sort of falls, he is a superhuman
Except swinging happens whenever the player moves. Maintaining a constant state of tension isn’t much fun or relaxing, which is the general feel being gone for by spider man.
Video || Game
Graphics || Actions
Exploring || Learning
Story || Choices
This duality is increasing over the years
To be fair, there's no fall damage in Super Mario Odyssey either.
It's about being more technical tho
Yeah but that is always a good thing on a platformer, especially 3D. On an action platformer though...not so much.
Fall damage in a pure platformer like mario odyssey will be unnecessary and annoying.
There is, but instead of mario it’s applied to your soul.
@@tomstonemale
Considering how durable Spider-Man is supposed to be, terminal velocity should just be more annoying to him than anything, maybe give him a bit of a stun.
The simple real time decition of choosing which arm to swing with next on older Spiderman games made you feel a lot more like those were YOUR arms that you were swinging with. For me that really put you in the skin of Spiderman.
This feels more like an issue of preference than objectively poor design, and I'm glad Mark addresses that in the video. If a system works and works well for what the developer's intentions are, doesn't break or trivialize aspects of a game too much, and feels great for most players, I call that a win.
I don't really get the "It's been 8 years so he's perfect at it" line of reasoning.
If that's the case then the same would be said of the combat and anything else.
If they just wanted to make it easy that's fine but the train of thought is inconsistent they just wanted to focus more on the combat, given the mission design that seems clear.
Which is a shame in my mind, why play spiderman if the combat is more central than the web-swinging?
This is akin to how the climbing felt way more fun in POP than in AC. In AC it's press x to be cool, in POP you're pressing jump buttons and grab buttons with timing and direction and it's much more satisfying.
yeah that 8 years stuff was improvised on the spot so they didn't have to say "it was a game design choice we thought our target audience would enjoy more". The reason they did that was, too, because their target audience would take it better. It's all about PR.
Is this the same Insomniac that made the Ratchet&Clank games? The second and third editions were awesome and the museum bits were my favorites (basically a reward for completionists of an in-game museum exhibit of devs breaking the fourth wall and explaining various aspects of the game's engine and design, super cool, similar to e.g. the museum ending of Stanley Parable)
[EDIT: Oh and I meant to say, this game is a far cry from those earlier ones if these are the same devs, in my opinion]
By that logic they should've had the combat be holding the attack button down to just mows down entire armies of enemies and automatically dodge out of the way, because he's been spider-man for 8 whole years, he's super skilled at what he does. Hell don't just stop there, have the entire game be one long cutscene, he's been spider man for 8 whole years without needing the players inputs to accomplish anything, so why change that now?
It makes sense for combat to take more skill to execute perfectly. Combat is a competition, the enemy wants to win and doesn't want to be knocked out, they literally put up a fight. The terrain doesn't want to hurt Spider-Man, it doesn't want anything, so getting around shouldn't be difficult, it's a contest between Spidey and inanimate objects.
@@ErikNiceBoy Those games have long been created, you can play them on Netflix
I agree with your point in the video, but for a person who does not have much experience playing games on console, I picked it up and it took me 3 hours late night to start the game. I was trash. I went to bed and woke up the next morning tried again. I felt much more control of spidey. You can say that was because i woke up fresh and was more focused. But one thing I noticed was even the night i started I was not good with combat I was okay with the web swinging, and if the game would not have given me some hints towards feeling as spidey, i would not have completed the game. This game is going to be my first platinum trophy.
Where was the comparison to the webswinging in Spiderman 2 (PS2)? It had quite a high skill ceiling... anyway nice analysis!
Web of Shadow web swinging was also pretty great and it had aerial combat
@faikos yes, i thought the same thing, Spider-Man 2 still has the best webswinging of all the games in my opinion :)
Snake Plissken Gaming agreed. It even rewarded you with style points for pulling off riskier moves like risking really close to buildings, successfully turning sharp corners, pulling off loop de loops, falling great heights and swinging just before you hit the ground, etc
Hold on that poison mission reminds me a lot of the old Spider-Man game from like 2000
FJaypewpew it makes you FEEL like you're playing a game from like 2000
The Dreamcast one?
The one where Venom released a toxin into the city, which was just the developers way of not having to do the ground.
Spider man 2 on PS2 and Xbox had a great immersive web swinging mechanic. One upgrade let spiderman move even faster during the upswing with the press of the other trigger. So one trigger to shoot a web, the other to stretch the legs during the upswing and gain even more momentum. Just like in real life when gaining momentum on a swing. It was awsome and although I haven't played that game for 15 years I immediately missed that mechanic.
That's crazy. Getting a flowy combat in Arkham Asylum isn't a piece of cake and the combat system is darn perfect. It's made super manageable during most of the gameplay (although I only played in hard difficulty so its 2-3 hits per fight and you’re out) and it really shines in the challenge mode where you can't miss a single input -- and that is now easy by any accounts. Also how did you screw up finishers in Spiderman? It's exactly the same automatic knockout for any enemy in the vicinity, just like in Batman. As soon as you press it, spidey in invincible an no one interrupts him through the whole animation.
For the swinging, I think Insomniac nailed it. The whole point of web swinging is to represent spiderman effortless and joyous traversal shenanigans. It was never meant to show how accurate spidey is or how he some web slinging brain surgeon carefully thinking about where which webs attach to what and how the pendulum physics need to be taken into consideration when swinging from building to building -- can that even be one in high speeds with a controller without bullet time?
It's point is precisely to be a carefree joyride, and boy did they nailed it.
I played Arkham games on normal before moving to hard and I can safely say that you have health to spare, enemies have less health and enemies attack less often and slower. Easy must be stupidly easy.
Sadly this game doesn't make you feel the exaggerated swagger of a black teen.
I think Marvel's Spider-Man swinging is the very polished simplified version of the swing system in Spider-Man 2 which is fine, but not exactly what I wanted. I'm more of a tech swinger because it makes me FEEL like Spidey so much more when I can pull off a string of moves from the movies using perfect timing and precision. Spider-Man 2 anchored you then gave you full freedom on what to do from there and you had noticeable web length differences depending on how close you were to the building which influenced your swing (not as much as ultimate spidey). There was also the freedom to loop around objects using your momentum which I haven't been able to replicate in the more recent game. The easy feel of swinging in Marvel's Spider-Man is definitely similar to the ease of free flow combat in Batman: Arkham Knight. Makes you feel like the hero with minimal effort for better or worse.
Amen! Releasing/jumping at the low point of the swing is the way to get speed while releasing higher than that gets you height, but I always felt speed capped.
Your talk on "LET YOU Feel LIKE (X)" instead of "MAKE YOU Feel LIKE (X)" is incredibly fascinating.
It explain why many people complaining about not getting into a game because they didn't feel like it right away. This also explains niche genres like Car/Flight Simulators, hardcore management simes, hardcore rule-set heavy RPG, Fighting games and such.
This part of the video was much more important and I wish more people understand it and see game genres in more appreciative light.
When you swing the music swells and the fov slightly increases and decreases
Always feels good
I think the part where the traversal system feels the weakest is where the game actually takes it away from you, and there's not really a coherent system you're left with. Pressing the run button makes you automatically swing.
With the old Spiderman 2 game, I would occasionally challenge myself by not using web-swinging and jumping from building to building like the Tick, but then Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction came out, and offered exactly that type of traversal, and that became my favorite game for a long while.
I kinda tired to hear an argument about Batman Arkham that it's combat based only on two buttons. Yes, it's not the most complex combat system, and in the beggining of the game it's quite simple, but game greatly builds on it by adding more enemy types and more gadgets and it's not just "press X and then Y".
It is a boring button mash of a combat system, absolutely no skill required
Although the Arkham games' combat system is nowhere near as complex as a Platinum or Team Ninja game, I think that there *can* be a decent level of skill required - just not in the story mode. Playing for a high score in the challenge modes adds a layer of extra complexity onto the fairly automated combat system (especially the Joker's Carnival one with the countdown timer, where you have to make the choice of when to "bank" your points to gain time).
Hey if you honestly feel that way maybe you should try new game plus, where you really need to understand the animations and not simply press counter when a glowing symbol tells you.
@@thetruemaxgoof It doesn't take skill to defeat many of the enemies, but what does take skill is avoiding taking a hit while pulling off advanced moves. Countering and striking are simply the safest options available.
The swinging is one of the most compelling features of the game exactly because it allows you to fall into a state of flow - you can actually be creative with your swinging so that you fulfil your own fantasy of how spider man actually swings. It also provides a much needed calm period after intense fights. Sometimes after a day of work I find myself just swinging around for 10 15 mins to relax my mind, it's a form of meditation!
Web swinging is like walking for Spiderman. Especially for a version that has 8 years of experience. There is no need for artificial difficulty or challenges especially when swinging is already so damn fun. It is actually still more involved compared to traversal systems in most other action games such as Just Cause 3 or inFamous.
There was an element of more difficult web-slinging in the original spiderman 2 for the gamecube/ps2 gen that had spidey drawn closer to each building he connected with, as well as a limit to web range based on level advancement; if I'm not mistaken the game also had an optional web-sling difficulty mode. Through xp and skill advancement you could purchase (at the in-game store) web slinging advancement making it easier to stay in the center of streets and connect to further, or taller building points. You could also purchase combat moves and aerial flips. It gave a sense that you were learning these skills as you went, as opposed to just taking over the body of someone who already knows every move. As you learnt new skills or gained access to more powerful web-slinging (ultimately with a level allowing you to connect seemingly to the sky/invisible helicopters) you were more excited to try them out and remember them in combat or chase levels, whereas it seems like the current spiderman would be closer to the experience of learning the moveset for a mortal kombat character. They have all these moves to choose from, but it's easier to simply remember the 3 that get the job done instead of learning new approaches.
It seems to me that it would be cool if Insomnia had an optional web-slinging difficulty that you could turn on to get more of that achievement feeling. By selecting it, you might find that you can relive Peter's time learning the ins and outs of web-travel-parkour. Maybe it would even grant access to new side missions that test the player on difficult web-slinging skills and mechanics. It's cool that the default is about getting you moving and traveling through New York as Spidey's playground, but it would be a nice option to be able to take the training wheels off.
I most certainly agree that combat does need more webswinging, but traversal in an open world game should be the break from combat. If it were more technical, then players would want to actually use the fast travel system which always makes them lose out on quick side missions like the crimes or backpacks.
Then they should learn the should learn the swinging and enjoy what learning it would bring. Developers should not make it so everyone sees everything without putting in any effort, that decreases replayability. Games should not be so easy to master that you are instantly nearly as good as you can get overall as soon as you pick it up. Games like that get boring so fast, that hurts games that would otherwise be amazing.
thetruemaxgoof Yes, they’ve mastered that with the combat and it has tons of replayability, first hand account. Combat has mastery, however if a game’s traversal over the overworld needs pin point precision then it would make players want to fast travel more often. In Spider-Man specifically, this would cause the players to miss out on the random event crimes, fast side missions such as photo-ops, and etc.
If webswinging was a labored action, then the game’s playablility would drop. However, because of its incredibly deep combat, the game still has LOTS of replayability without the repetitiveness of complicated webswinging in a world map of this size.
If things like crimes were hidden, and players weren’t alerted to them immediately, then there’d be less incentive to drop in. However I do agree that certain things do need some vagueness, like the backpacks shouldn’t have a direct pinpoint on them, they should be hidden and the player is given a small area of their location.
And Spider-Man PS4 is most certainly NOT the kinda game that someone can immediately pick up and instantly feel like Spider-Man. It’s an earned experience, and I don’t know how I implied that it wasn’t.
Sinplest The combat is pretty satisfying, but the traversal got old so fast I ended up using the fast travel sometimes out of boredom.
The traversal takes no skill at all, there should be options to allow for an experience that demands more from the player instead of simply holding R2 and then pressing X.
Timing and positioning should affect things, and there should be consequences for mistakes because it was Peter Parker that spent 8 years being Spiderman, not the player. The game should allow for that kind of mastery but it should not hand it out immediately to anyone with an index finger and thumb.
Actually you are completely misguided. What really makes people use fast travel is there not being anything interesting from the location they are to the location they want to be. That is why good games reserve fast travel for the mid to end game. So that when traveling starts to get boring the player gets the option to teleport arround. Also, as long as it was kept fast to travel from point A to B, the complexity of the system wouldn't matter
TheBrazilRules You are misunderstanding the point. Fast travel is used to skip boring traversal, if the traversal in Spiderman gets boring to me after a while, obviously I will use fast travel to get to missions quicker.
The traversal offers no challenge at all, all I want are options to offer more control over web slinging so It isn't as easy as mindlessly holding R2.
And what do you mean kept fast, the web slinging in this game feels slow to me, it is not nearly as fast as the web slinging in Web of Shadows
and the complexity does matter, if the game always saves you when you make a mistake and you have no way to fail, doing cool moves means nothing because it barely required any skill to execute.
How can you feel accomplished doing something cool in a game if the game basically did everything for you?
As Insomniac stated you play a skilled Spidey and they don't want you to stop. Instead of making the web swinging more challenging they decided to focus on the combat I guess. I remember thinking about the shoulder button swinging (left and right) when playing during a Spidey preview. At first I thought it was strange but once you get the flow of the swinging, momentum and the other ways of traversal it's just awesome! It's also nice to see someone having something to say about this game that isn't just all praise, because how great this game may seem it has plenty of real problems as well. Great video as always!
8:43 that’s Vulture, not Scorpion. Wrong animal, Mark XD
I have been triggered by this. Thx for your comment. XD
Thestormwizard lol
I thought it was a human superhero...
@@elio7610 villain
Amazing that Mark made this video blindfolded
Comparing a dedicated platformer like Mario to an open world combat RPG like Spider-man feels like comparing GTA and Gran Turismo in terms of driving. I can see the message you're trying to convey, but this time I have to say the way you formated the whole idea just came off as a complaint based on your own preferences, rather than an informed objective analysis.
I still think your videos are great, though. So please do keep up the good work.
Hi Mark. While I agree with alot of your points and comparisons, I think one of the main reasons the developers kept the web swinging so simple (besides not breaking the flow of the traversal) is that a lot of the target audience is quite young. My 10 year old nephew spends hours swinging round New York taking photos in crazy locations, and he loves it.
Great show as always.
Disappointed that you didn't bring up Spider-man 2, in my opinion the pinnacle of skill-based web swinging in any spider-man game. Ultimate's is similar but not as good.
he did tho
@@ethanmajor6836 that was amazing Spider-Man 2, not the original Spider-Man 2
Part of the Spider-Man mythos, though, is that he doesn't really think about swinging. They've stated before that he can swing so easily, always knowing where to latch his webs, because of his Spider Sense. He doesn't think about it. He just does it. In that vein, an easy "just do it" web swinging system fits in perfectly with the character.
I was waiting for you to mention Spider-Man 2 but you never did. What the heck?
Especially since Spider-Man 2 actually had two swinging systems: a simple one and a complex one. It solved this issue back in 2004
Probably to avoid pissing of fanboys of this game. Say the words "Spiderman 2" within earshot of them and they will immediately scream about how the "web swinging isn't better" and how blinded by nostalgia you are.
I mean the fans of Spider-Man 2 do the same thing
@@GAL0ISGIRL Not really, simply because of the nature of the discussion. Spider-Man fans are the ones on the defensive, and people on the defensive in an argument are usually the ones to lose their cool first. Couple that with the sheer volume of them and how it is really only one part of the game SM2 fans are commenting on and well...
There are exceptions of course. I saw a couple of assholes combing through comment sections calling Spider-Man trash and how SM2 was "better", which it really isn't as a whole, and insulting everyone who says otherwise.
Great video as always. Want to point one thing out that I think is important to the “mastery vs accessibility” debate here: web swinging is your primary mode of transportation throughout the game. It’s more akin to walking in Mario than jumping. Building technical challenge into the most basic method of moving around the world can be extremely frustrating to first time players: I know because as a kid, I actually tried to complete the Spider-Man 2 tutorial by only running and Wall-climbing, since the web-swinging was so frustrating to my 10-year-old self. I think there’s an argument for having enough depth to basic movement that experienced players can pull off nifty tricks and super moves that newbies can’t, but if you punish the player too hard for messing up at simply moving around the game space, that can be a recipe for throwing the controller and shouting “Uggh, forget it!”
Why are you comparing swinging to different games? Sunset was a "zombie" shooter game so staying out of reach and moving is a good thing , the air dive thing is a totally different genre. It is like making a Batman game and giving him a gun to mow down the goons and a knife for the perfect silent kill.
I think the main difference is that Spiderman isn't necessarily supposed to challenge you on your web-slinging/grapple hooking unlike the other games you've mentioned.
100% agree. The web slinging often put me to sleep which is a shame because it should have been the highlight of the game.
Honestly I think having it handed to you during traversal but needing to earn it during combat is a perfect balance. You get to feel like Spider-man because you're Doing The Thing right away, but at the same time you have the game telling you "you'll feel awesome once you learn this" in the combat. It's right on the money.
Hey Mark, I just wanted to shed light into a game that felt missing in your video, and it is in another complete different level regarding the hook-sling movement: Attack on titan tribute game (AOTTG), this is a free game that I recommend anyone to play and 'learn', and I say 'learn' because the first times you will play it would feel very hard to control, but the movement becomes incredibly satisfying.
There are a lot of videos of this game, but looking them without trying it first wont give you the complete picture that the videos depict.
Thanks for reading.
You forgot how in ultimate spider man you could even climb up your web mid-swing at the touch of a button. The web latches on to buildings and you got the web zip and acrobatics once you let go of the web. And yet, people say that only SM2 did web swing right...
A more complex swinging mode would've been fun but it makes more sense just to make it simple so a larger audience can enjoy the game without a hassle, I'm sure there are kids out there just looking for a fun spidey game so swinging being somewhat difficult would ruin their experience.
I seem to remember an old PS2 game that allowed the player to choose between simple or advanced controls for traversal, catering to both audiences... what was that game again?
Sarcasm-Man 2.
One thing I'd like to point out is that it's also all about player agency. Most fights you'll typically just be leaping around the local area, punching, kicking and webbing up enemies. However, as the game goes on, the set pieces start to get larger, and the opportunity to use Spidey's webslinging become more frequent, if you so desire it. I can think of two good examples off the top of my head: Escaped convict camps, and Sable ambushes.
The escaped convict camps are huge, set on the rooftops of several buildings with makeshift bridges, like a 70's movie dystopian future, as JJJ so aptly describes it. Convicts pop out all over the place on regular intervals, often with RPGs. Most of them are constructed with web slinging in mind, and you can quickly and easily shift yourself into a mobile wrecking ball type of gameplay, swinging around, dodging those rockets or perhaps slinging them back at the convicts, and doing a midair kick to knock a convict off a bridge or dropping in to slap a separated thug down before his buddies can catch up with you again.
As for the Sable ambushes, I specifically mean the ones where a bunch of Sable Jetpack Troopers pop seemingly out of nowhere to intercept you as you're swinging around. The easiest and most effective way to take these guys out is to land on a rooftop and take them down from there, using gadgets or whatever to web em up. But there's a fun and challenging way to take them out, too: Keep webslinging around, dodging their shots and going in for swingkicks and mid-air combos on them before resuming the webslinging.
There are other places where if you want you can incorporate webslinging around into your playstyle, but those two are easily the most webslinging accessible. Hell, you can even do it inside the Demon warehouses if you so desire. It will NEVER be the most effective and efficient way of taking down the bad guys, that'll pretty much always be going in to the brawl and using your midair combos and gadgets to fight, and it's almost completely unintuitive to do this since your brain is always saying "that is for travel, not for fighting", but it can be a lot of fun to do.
Really make you FEEL like Batman
I think they should do what Spider-Man 2 did with its web swinging, where before you start the game, you’re given the choice between Easy and Advanced swinging styles. The Easy style can be more cinematic and Advanced can force players to think on their toes more about web slinging so as to not long like an idiot.
If you want to play the in my opinion most challenging hooking game try Attack on Titan. Not the official game but the AoTTG (AoT Tribiut Game). You have two hooks and have to aim them manually. Its pretty hard for beginners but you get better and better at slaying titans.
I would recommend to download the RC Mod for it (just google it, it has more options and is an .exe not a browser game)
"A story about my uncle" made my feel much more like spiderman, that game is amazing
Probably because of the title, *cough cough* Uncle Ben *cough couch*
i would like to argue that the movement system in spiderman must be as easy as walking, literally
how many times have you seen spiderman have problems getting somewhere? on the other hand if you would insist on having some extra depth on the spiderman you can always add a unmetered cartridge to the webs that empties at seemingly random times and causes the player to have to act fast and to give some of the close calls that we often see spiderman having...
you can not have a spiderman that is struggling to move around and also feel empowered by the feeling of being spiderman
also walking does tend to be a bit of a problem in some games getting to feel a bit like a chore and in a huge city with not that many iconic buildings i would like to argue that is for the best that we do not linger much
The web swinging in the game is kinda its own reward. The player motivates themselves to go faster, not because of anything in the game, but because it's fun to see how fast you can go.
But how does the next game make me feel like I have the exaggerated swagger of a black teen?
I totally agree with you. I played the game at a store the other day, and was so surprised that I was immediately able to get the hang of it without checking the controls layout that I hated it.
There are 2 things that I think they should take away from web slinging to make it feel better.
1, I hate that it pushes you up when you swing too close to the ground. If you swing into the ground spidey should start running like he does to walls, but instead the game pushes you up which makes it feel really cheap and takes away any cool moments where you want to try swinging close to the ground or between cars and such without hitting anything.
2, I hate that holding R2 is all you need to do to continue web swinging, I like it better in Spiderman 2 where you had to let go of the R2 then simply press it again to start a new web swing.
This also allowed you to hold a web and swing around things in cool ways, instead when you reach a certain point in the arch spidey automatically lets go and starts a new web.
Both of the features i hate are intended to not stop the flow, but they decrease the skill requirement only a tiny bit and take away much more choice, freedom , and ability to do cool things.
They're basically training wheels that you can never take off.
Agreed completely. Boring stuff.
I think the web swinging mechanics get so much praise, not because of how objectively good they are, but because someone finally grasped the basics of why you'd want a web swinging mechanic and actually involved a mechanic in which you swing from webs. It's great in comparison to other spider man games that have disappointed everyone time and again.
Honestly I love how they did the web swinging. There were several days when I started the console, just to swing around for a bit. Because it is so much fun to do it. Also I really liked it, when the game started and I was able to use the swinging directly from the start.
Sure, you could integrate much more stuff and challenges with web swinging but on the other hand, the way it was implemented gives the player a great feeling. And because you don't need it for mission, it is ok to have it easy and fully available from the start. At least from my perspective
I feel like they saw your video before making spider-man 2. They changed a lot
It's weird that the web slinging is way better and had a higher skill ceiling but they removed all the web swinging time trials
@chulovesyou217 true, I was disappointed, in the Miles Morales one, the time trials were fun.