That was definitely the quickest 12 minutes of my life. I just wanted to say that your videos are some of the most captivating and well-edited on TH-cam and seeing a new one in my subscription feed really brings a smile to my face. Well done!
It would be so much better if your crosshair was above your head instead of inside it. Or shifted to the side. There's probably a ton of ways to make it work but the one they went with is idiotic
I remember spending hours modding the third person camera on the game. It wasn't impossible, changing the crosshair and the Fov was enough, but the hitscan for your hand got offset and aiming with bows and modded guns was a challenge XD
I must say, just a tiny detail about a camera: when you start the game in sunset overdrive the camera is near the protagonist. He is looking around and then noticing the camera and punching it way back, it feels like the character is annoyed over the camera that is way to near for him to actually fight. And I just love that the map is right under a crack in the screen because he smacked it!
I was always impressed by Breath of the Wild's targeting system that seems to center the camera at a half-way point between you and your enemy. If you rotate the camera, it creates some really great cinematic fight scenes.
I honestly hated it, my main problem was how it wrestled with the controls for things like jumping to get flurry attacks, hard to jump in the right direction if the camera is at a 45 degree angle, but I do understand the appeal.
I really loved how Nier Automata's camera changes even the genre of the game, swigging from a brawler like devilmay cry to a classic arcade game like galaga or even a shooter-platformer like Contra. Or maybe is better to say that moving the camera allowed the game to make those changes of style.
The camera is Journey is truly amazing. Not only does it add to the sublime nature of the game and the smallness of your character, but the way the camera pushes to the sides to hint at where you should be heading is such a fantastic way to avoid 'gamey' elements like waypoints
The camera is the warm-up boss, the lock-on system is the final boss. Specifically, switching lock-on while running or dashing. You'll pivot on a dime to face the new lock without losing speed at all.
So great to see ARMS getting a little love here. I know it didn't see massive levels of success, but the behind-the-back perspective and use of relative size to gauge distance was such a refreshing idea.
It's not as big a failure as people seem to dismiss it as being - While it doesn't seem to have garnered much of a competitive following, and it's no longer in the top 10 Nintendo published games on Switch, it sold in the upper echelon of what a non-licensed fighting game tends to wind up doing these days, as a new IP.
i think it would've done better if they had levels to help you master the controls better or didn't force you to win the volleybomb, target gallery, or basket ball rounds in the single player, some arms are terrible for volleybomb!
Daryl Talks Games it makes such good use of motion controls, too. Playing the game with detached joy-cons is the only way to truly play it, where you’ve got to be precise about how you hold the controllers.
@@Stephen-Fox Absolutely. Believe it or not, it's sold similarly to Bloodborne and Persona 5 and no one would call those games failures, now would they? The game only did poorly when compared their absolute biggest hitters. In general, it did well
Whenever picking up a new 3D platformer, the first thing that tips me off is how the camera works. Yooka Laylee pre-fix was a key example of this because it really felt like the camera was fighting you. Always best to have some free mobility in a game like that.
Mario Oddysey's camera is a bit like that sometimes, like at points it'll force you to look a certain way and it fights with you when you're trying to move the camera
Regarding God of War's enemies being "less aggressive" when off-camera... I've noticed a similar trick used in the Ratchet & Clank games. Enemies will never attack if you can't see them. It's a nice touch - makes the game a lot more player-friendly.
Is there no discussion about "Camera who fight the Player". Example 3rd perspective camera with wide view angle suddenly collide with terrain like wall and make the camera so close to character you can't see anything.
Monster Hunter World "Yes game, I know another monster has entered the area, but I'm currently getting my face chewed on because you decided to it was more important to point the camera at this new monster instead of the one I'm locked in combat with."
Sonic Adventure 2's camera, hands down. Need to backtrack? Well, the camera has decided that it's going to always be oriented forward, whether you want it to or not. Want to side-track to do optional mission stuff, and you need to do precision platforming over death pits? Well that's tough, the camera just decided it wanted to re-orient 90+ degrees while you were hover-jumping in your Tails or Eggman mech, and now you're floating in a horseshoe pattern down to your demise. And don't get me started about the stupid loop-de-loops. 3d just totally has hold-ups, when it comes to classic sonic rollercoaster setpieces.
"And don't get me started about the stupid loop-de-loops" Nah, I'm getting started. Don't try to actually make them work in 3D, just litter them with boost pads so the player doesn't even get to play the game!! BRILLIANT!!! In fact, a lot of 3D Sonic is just "don't touch the controls, or you'll interrupt this sequence of boost pads, springs, and literal rails and you'll die!" and it's complete garbage. Adding grind rails in SA2 was basically an admission that they couldn't figure out how to make the game work and thus needed to just railroad you while you watched rather than played. I hate all of those games.
Having recently replayed this game which I adored as a kid I have to agree that it’s the worst camera in any game I’ve played, in addition to all your points the inability to look up or down and then being asked to essentially jump into the unknown constantly causes a lot of frustrating deaths.
@@mjc0961 Y'know what's sad? Its that the solution to loops in 3D Sonic is simple: just add a slope in front of the loop that can be used to build up enough speed, and add a spline path that guides the player through the loop. There is absolutely no need for boosting, auto-running or boost pads, but Sonic Team keeps using them.
The camera in Oni avoids getting stuck on walls by just making the walls translucent. Such a simple solution, I don't know why other games don't do it.
Third person days today don't do it because with deferred shading transparency gets really performance heavy. AFAIK you need an extra rendering pass to do it. Thus the games that do it (MGSV comes to mind) make objects in front of the camera dithered rather than transparent. Sekiro had an interesting take on the transparency. With the objects made translucent to avoid obscuring the view would still make things blurry behind them.
Some do, but as SundayRoast pointed out it's less common in games today because of the sheer amount of computing power it takes to do it efficiently/consistently. I do see it in tons of 2D games, but they do it for different reasons as that's not an issue there.
In your highlight of Arkham Asylum's variety of camera use, I was immediately reminded of how Metal Gear Solid made use of the same sort of dynamic situational camera functionality. The early games were somewhat like a moving Resident Evil camera where the perspective was mostly fixed for each area but it still moved with the player. By MGS3 and MGS4 it became followed the player more often in a third person mode. It adjusted to first person mode for air vents and in boxes, moved around corners when in stealth, zoomed in to aim down sights, and went wide in a whole variety of cinematic shots even outside of cutscenes. By MG5 with its open world design it was mostly in third person following though.
Slightly disappointed in this video for the sheer lack of praise or even mention of MGS as a whole, outside of the clip of Revengence anyway. Aside from those games being cinematic masterpieces, gameplay wise the camera is incredibly dynamic, I'd have to agree. Not unlike what Rocksteady did with the Arkham series.
Speaking of that, I've heard somewhere that most of it is for it's scripted transitions, I never played the game but I guess most challenges are linear, devs know where the player is and what they want to see, so the devs scripted the camera to be perfect in such cases. This requires a lot of work but it is a solution.
To me, the camera in Mario Odyssey is easily the worst part of the game. It likes to sweep around and zoom out and just do whatever it wants, which honestly feels disorienting and distracting most of the time.
@@Questorium I might actually partly agree with you. Especially when you play as captures, the game has some angles it likes to stick to when your not moving your joystick and I wish I could just have more control
In the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Link is in the center of the screen while riding a horse, but you can still see where you're going, so I think it is a mostly artistic choice for that game to use the rule of thirds.
Most third person games do this by making the camera point slightly overhead compared to the player. That game does indeed do something unique by also tilting aside.
@@CalebWillden As someone who's playing Red Dead Redemption 2 right now I am CONTINUOUSLY finding myself tilting the camera down so I can look over my character to see where I am going. I'm also constantly swapping between my minimap and trying to find the roads that show up on there. I haven't played BotW in a while so I don't recall how they handle it, but my point is that far from every game does it that well.
@@CalebWillden That's mostly because we have the freedom to put the camera above link and the horse to see the ground in front of us. It does become a problem when going down slopes, but so does the side-angle cameras whenever you turn to the side of the screen your character is on.
@@dddmemaybe I dont remember how it is in BOTW but I have always had a problem with this. In GTA while driving (I guess it´s the same in RDR2 since both are Rockstar games) you can tilt the camera to see where you´re going, BUT you can not fix the camera in a specific direction wich means you constantly have to keep fiddeling with the thumbstick wich I find really anoying....
X/Y ! Yeah! now that you mention it even though the camera was always fixed I never felt the need or desire to move it, like I sometimes did in sun/moon. The framing and angles chosen were usually ideal and relatively cinematic, for a handheld pokemon game. But screw Lumiose City.
Yeah, I kept unconsciously trying to move the camera with the analog >.< You can't even read the route numbers on top of the gates unless you get really close to it and then back off again
for some reason I absolutely hated that place. was so tired of hearing the same music over and over again and having no idea where to go because the camera seems to want to be as inconvenient as possible.
5 years ago I started a simple 2D spaceships game for iOS just for fun, controlling a dynamic camera was by far the most complex part but it was a lot of fun.
Fascinating video!! Also Rocksteady's work with in-game cameras is probably second to none! So glad that they're recognized. I spent ages just gliding around in the third arkham game just admiring all the tiny details with the game camera!
as of writing this this was made 2 years ago on a year old video. it has 5 likes and below it is a comment with 535 likes and above it is a comment with 6.2k likes. how are you the second comment i saw with almost no like and recentally. im impressed
11:03 EA didnt really find a new style. they mimic the style of skate videos. the important part in a skate video is the board and the foot work. so thats what is in focus in the videos. EA did a good job in copying the style though. it makes the player feel like they are a professional skater trying to film the next big thing
Coping and adapting the camera, they would easily just copy it but it need to be translated to gameplay, so it's technically a new style if you see it as what it is, a game.
EA's sports game nearly always do this. When there are examples of how the sport would be filmed in real life, this is integrated. In racing games you get the same tight FOV in filler shots, in soccer games you get a view from above, as though filmed by a crane, and then filler shots from the ground crew. In sports games realism is usually the goal, and having a camera that does what it would do in real life adds to the immersion. I especially like how in golf games the safe thing to do would be to just have the camera follow the ball, so you can actually see whats happening. Instead, the camera is stationary and the ball could shrink to like 10 pixels in size on screen, meaning that the actual gameplay part of the game is minimized on the screen in favor of you being immersed into this golfing competition.
One of the only 3rd person cams I've actually _enjoyed_ was Dead Space... I really like how they immersed you in the world, and made the health bar an integrated part of the suit. The crappy peripheral vision adds to the claustrophobia and fear, and you end up frantically sweeping the camera around trying to not miss anything. That game did horror, suspense, 3rd person, and what I call "basic action" better than almost everything else. P.S. Basic Action is what I call very simplified versions of shooters, or very stripped down combat systems built to fit as a part of a whole and not the focus. Often those systems suck, but I think Dead Space did it very well.
i couldn't think of a better example, dead space camera extremely well made, the camera even get a little further away on low grav parts of the game, and during interactive cutscenes, like the tentacle thing that grabs you it makes it fell tense and scary but also making the gameplay clear and interesting
I was thinking of the same thing. Too bad Mark didn't mention it at least once in the video concerning camera in video games. Would have loved to see Mark's take on Dead Space.
@@StellarStreak you're in luck. He's made a 3 part series examining each and every mainline dead space game, breaking down its mechanics and seeing how the game changed each time. It's some of his best work imo.
I've been on a VR craze after getting an Oculus Quest for Christmas last month... I really want to know more about a game's camera mechanics when the entire thing is COMPLETELY controlled by the player like in VR. I played through Moss and this enamoured craze thing started in the first place at being able to physically lean in forwards or backwards as per needed to make a precision jump or get an overview of the whole scene. I realised how many cinema tricks game cameras use to frame shots, for example if you want to show that a monster is really big you might get the camera panning out further to show that it's the size of a building... but VR made me realise that'd be unnecessary because you can literally see how big it is because it's right next to you... ... But on the other hand it faces the issue of not being able to force the player to look at something which should be seen. A minor example but early on in Moss there's a cutscene where a bird flies overhead and the main character hides from it... I saw the bird approach and looked at that and took a few seconds to see where the character had gone. Which wouldn't have been an issue if it were a traditional game which can force the camera to look where the cutscene wants you to look. etc.
This is as good as place as any to mention Actionbutton's analysis of Bioshock 2. They loved how the hacking minigames were integrated in real-time compared to Bioshock 1.
Or rather, not just lockpicking/hacking, but mini-games in general, which tries to represent something usually boring from player's perspective and is that even the right thing to do, check GTA 5 and Online also for wide variety of seemingly unique mini-games
I feel like no game has ever done locking picking better than the Gothic series. Every other game feels the need to show you some kind of UI representation of a lock that pointlessly tries to recreate what lock picking actually does instead of what it feels like to do.
the original thief had a good system which simply had you hold down the interact button with a lock pick in hand over a door. It also had two different lockpicks which had to be tried to determine the right one. This system made you feel stressed as the door nob slowly turned and guards moved on their patrol paths, possible straight into you.
Hard to criticize when it's one of the first attempts at a 3D camera, but the camera in Mario 64 drives me crazy. It often swings all over the place with no input from you, and will completely ruin an attempt to navigate across a narrow bridge.
Ironically - I found that the best way to use the Mario 64 camera was to leave it alone, if you try to change the camera you have to fight it for the rest of the level... all though Mario 64 gets grace for being early attempt at 3d camera the remake doesn't get that grace for me - they could have fixed the camera
I've been watching these videos for years, and just wanted to let you know that I am going to start applying some of these lessons in Dreams! So thank you for these great videos!
I like that in the Batman Arkham series, the longer the combo, the more the camera zooms out (and the acrion slows) to allow for even better control and combo length. Unfortunately they still have some random close-ups that can cause you to get hit
I love how when you climb walls in Breath of the Wild the camera turns to show Link from the side, with the environment behind him. And Destiny’s third person switch when you have a relic or a super is amazing.
Justin Knutson Breath of the Wild has a lot of dynamic camera shifts to not only suit the gameplay but show you the prettiest possible camera angle too
The camera in FTL is the worst. I mean think about it : -You have to pay for the complete experience -It stops working in certain areas -It doesn't work properly against the last boss -It can even get damaged -Sometimes you don't even have one!
took me a while, but this comment has some depth to it: sometimes the camera can be obscured in some ways, and have that be a part of the mechanics. I guess prime example is the fog of war, but I remember an rts with a more fluid view of the battlefiled, where the camera would start to have more and more noise on top as you left the seen area.
@@chairityowner3028 A game called Faster Than Light. He's referring to the sensors (shown as a camera icon) on your ship which shows you details about the enemy. It can be upgraded to show more stats, or destroyed making it really hard to see what's happening on your ship.
But a first person camera makes you FEEL like you are the person who you are playing... So should spiderman ps4 be first person in order to make you FEEL even more like spiderman?
That’s a good point, but I’d say no. I feel the major selling point of how Spider-Man moves in comparison to other super heroes is he’s highly acrobatic. Flips and somersaults and spins and cartwheels are all common aspects of his movement while swinging, parkouring and also in combat. Having the camera do full 360 degree spins ever few seconds would be super nauseating, and trying to fudge it to covey the motion of the movement like Blizzard does with McCree’s combat roll in Overwatch I feel would either be so frequent it would get disorientating, or not really sell each individual movement and how it differed from Spider-Man’s last flip.
@@orr4337 not really, spider-sense make spiderman aware of his surrounding pretty much anytime and made him hard to shoot even at point blank. 3rd person camera is as close as it get for us mortal human to understand how his spider sense work.
Thank you for the balanced critique of GoW’s camera. I am so befuddled as to why more people haven’t discussed it’s tolerable, but still present, design flaws.
check out mattewmatosis' case study on it most of the video is just that it's really well done here's the link: th-cam.com/video/IERHMMXeshc/w-d-xo.html
@@genehayes I didn't dislike it, and in the universe it was quite fitting. But I was almost expecting more. Then again, I supposed that was somewhat the point. I did feel bit paranoid.
Punch-Out Wii should get an honorable mention not just for the behind-the-back camera like ARMS, but how the camera moves with Little Mac and his opponents. I recall New Frame Plus go more into detail about that.
Well, that kind of camera comes from the older Punch Out games, and it's also a single player game, while the point of the ARMS camera comes from Mario Kart (interesting, isn't it?) Where the point it's to allow a more comfortable and easy to read gameplay for people new to the fighting games allowing them to see the punch literally coming from a long distance, creating then the concept of elastic arms.
I mean, I consider Boxing and Fighting games on 2 seperate levels, after all, you want a side view in Wrestling and UFC games or Mortal Kombat, but in Boxing, you want to be behind your own fists, as you're controlling each of them separately, you're not just tapping square 3 times to give a left jab, a right jab, and a left hook, you're pushing the left joystick forward, pressing the right joystick forward, then pushing the left joystick to the side and pushing it up from the side to do a hook,
I see you haven't played The Adventures of Mr. Fluffykins.. I planned on writing a completely serious review of this game as an April fools video, but about 30s in you have to walk down some stairs and the camera bounced on every single step. I instantly refunded it, I couldn't deal with that for any longer haha
It's not the worst... but how about Metal Gear Rising Revengeance? You are required to show the direction you are going to block/parry with the thumbstick, while pressing square. But the camera does this bit more challenging than it needs to be by being really close. By flipping it around if you are using lock-on as enemy attacks so you are sure to miss the attack. Also in the corners it jumps around and sometimes doesn't show the action very well. :D I love the game, but the camera is something I wish they would have fixed. Because it's not nice to get hit at last second because the camera starts act up.
I think he was talking about games that are primarily platformers. Also, he had to make a choice, he can't cite every game that makes a good work with camera.
@@shingshongshamalama Ok, np.^^ I was mostly reacting because MoofEMP was adding yet other games, and I know some people can get frustrated when their favorite game isn't cited in a relevant video. ;)
I would love to see a video on camera for dialogues, and how different they are from game to game. Some just zoom into the NPC you're talking to and stay there for all of the dialogue, while others don't zoom in at all and just use the default camera view. Others have a more cinematic flair, with the camera switching between the player and the NPC, as well as use different camera angles. Some work better than others, and for RPGs it's pretty important that it works well.
So truee, it's better in red dead redemption 2 where you can still move the horse where you want, with all the difficulty of the fast changes, and let the IA does it work and enjoy the view while the horse goes by itself
Except the X button causes your horse to walk in place if you had stepped away from the game lol. I was also disappointed that when the automatic cinematic camera triggers while driving a train, it cancels you holding X and the train slows to a stop, and hitting X again cancels the cinematic camera. (And yes I know you can manually start the cinematic camera.)
I always remember a Batman game (Black Mask it something along those lines) which used a fixed perspective like Resident Evil, but without tank controls, so each time you rounded a corner Batman would suddenly jerk around to head in a different direction because due to the reorientation of the screen in relation to the control stick. And it even happened during boss fights! So sometimes you’d move slightly and suddenly be aiming on the other side of the room from where you were aiming before, while the enemy pumped you full of lead.
Honestly I'm glad they did the camera the way they did in God of War. It made the action feel visceral, and made you have to control your tunnel vision like Kratos has to die to his rage. It made it so you had to be ruthless but concentrated. It also made it so you feel close to Kratos when he's most himself, during combat.
I have just one specific pet peeve about cameras: When you peek around a corner and your character tilts his head, but also the camera suddenly also tilts. The thing is, our brains are great at correcting tilts like that, but a camera not. That's why I love cameras that are a bit closerer to the human perception! :^) Here is another one: Lens flare streaks go vertical for us (just squint your eyes a bit and you'll see it), while most cameras (lenses) bend them horizontal, but I prefer the horizontal look, because it reminds me of anamorphic lenses aka the cinematic widescreen aesthetic.
So lemme get this straight... you want a camera experience that better emulates human perception but you want horizontal lens flares because the vertical ones that emulate human perception aren't as cool XD
And what about camera control as a gameplay action ? Shouldn't we dicuss games which gamify the camera and those in which players can use framing, camera's angles, movement or speed to face challenges ? Because, once we aknowledge that most video-games have to deal with build-in cameras, there are many wonderfull and playfull things to do with it. A few examples : It can be as simple as binoculars and sights allowing players to look or aim further (through zoom or depth of field), while quite a few FPS and RPG use some variations of "X-ray vision", slow-motion powers, light sources or lack thereof (including the classic dungeon dilemma "you can either hold a torch or a shield"), other play with blood, blur, weather conditions and particules obscuring the screen as penalty or new challenges, Metro even asking players to regularly wipe your vision clean. Various platformers only allow players to look around when the character isn't moving, Hyper Light Drifter even require you to stop in order to shoot, Fez reveals its third dimension through camera rotation, many strategy games let players pan-out in various direction to look at the map beyond their borders (with or without for of war), numerous third person and even tactical games ask that you reach high view-points to reveal the environment, some give you camera-drones or camera-birds to explore even further. More directly, Fatal Frame, Outlast or Five night at Freddy's use their different in-game cameras not only for jump-scares but largely as a mean of exploration and interaction (not even mentioning "found footage" horror games now constituting a sub-genre).
See, this is why I have some issues with 2D Sonic games. In Sonic Mania, the camera is hellbent on having your character be smack-dab in the middle of the screen. Except, if you're running at the high speeds the games want you to be, there isn't enough time to react to some of the stage elements which makes them feel like a "Gotcha!" moment. If the camera were to pull Sonic away from the middle of the screen depending on his speed, it would both give the player more screen space to react, as well as add to the feeling of speed and momentum.
I really like L4D's camera. The first person snaps to third person when you're restricted by an infected or fallen off a ledge. A good way to inform you that you are unable to do anything until help arrives, while letting you look around for said help and possible threats to warn them about.
I'm struggling to think of the worst camera but I love the camera in the Mass Effect series. While exploring the area, the camera zooms out with you in the centre. This allows you to properly observe your surroundings, either to search for loot, or more often, use the scenery to set some of the tone.. When you draw your weapon but aren't fine aiming, it shifts so that you cover the left third of the screen. This keeps the action in front of you while still leaving some peripheral vision to observe the battlefield. It also turns rapidly so you can adapt to incoming threats. While holding the aim button, it zooms to an over-the-shoulder view, and slow turn rate. This allows a great view for precision shots. Finally, the conversation camera is almost always centred on someones face. When it isn't, it's usually because multiple characters are talking in quick succession, or something in the background is being referenced.
One thing I kinda wish you’d mention is automatic camera movement vs letting the player move the camera. For example: in Mario odyssey the camera will frequently reset behind the character by itself. Where as Zelda BotW leaves most of the camera work up to the player excluding the lock on. While it is more work on my part to move the camera if it doesn’t move as much automatically. I prefer that because I like having that amount of control as to where I’m looking, and I find it frustrating when a camera is resetting back to behind the character when I want to look at a certain angle
@@rhubarbjin Self moving cameras are my biggest gripe with Shadow of the Colossus. Following the rule of thirds is nice and all, but I prefer the camera to be straight behind me so I can see dead ahead and won't feel slightly confused with the controls by the shifting camera.
I really appreciate seeing Killer7 make an appearance here, it would be interesting if you had talked about it too, considering its many different cameras for walking, aiming, and action sequences like reloading or counter attacks, plus the cameras in certain events such as the Encounter bossfight.
First of all, great video! I never noticed all of the subtle way that cameras can be used to promote focus and convey emotion! And I do remember being frustrated when I get attacked by something off screen in God of War. But I kind of enjoyed it because it made Kratos seem older and more vulnerable, and the fights more frantic. I had to learn to position myself on the battlefield, which made me feel like Kratos learning to fight again after getting rusty.
The camera in some of the 3d platformer mario games almost ALWAYS had me yelling in frustration. I couldn't say exactly how or why but the way you could swing the camera or the camera swung for you often hid cliffs or holes or made judging the distance on them difficult.
More of an unusual camera than a bad camera, but Ape Escape has a boss battle done with an enemy's-eye-view camera. Jak 2 also has a chase level where you get the point-of-view of the monster chasing you.
Camerabeast paarl. I think they camera in the Ludwig fight is a really good example of camera in a beast fight, rarely had an issue where I couldn't see what was going on
I do not remember suffering much on Darkbeast Paarl, or the majority of large bosses, but in Orphan of Kos... man... Every time I locked-on in the boss, he'd come running in my direction, and while I was struggling to not stare at the floor, he just beat the hell out of me with that placenta thing.
It was improved a bit in Bloodborne and particularly Dark Souls 3 by having the camera back up when large bosses are on screen. The same effect is utilized after the first real area boss, Vordt; the camera backs up so the player gets a very wide angle shot over the entirety of Lothric to see every area they’ll explore in the game. Other examples include the camera backing up during the boss fight against Midir to get a clearer view of his enormity and the movement of all his limbs, so the player gets more info on screen.
I loved this! I feel like all these different aspects are indeed being subconsciously perceived by the players but not truly appreciated and thought about unless brilliantly put into words and explained like you did in this video. As you said, good cameras make themselves invisible.
im still gonna name the best camera i have ever seen. its in "a way out" where the camera is completely driven by the narrative and adjusts as necessary. switching between splitscreen to third person to 2d from the side when fighting in a corridor. it was an amazing experience
I know it was a super short bit of the video, but the camera in Skate was imitating what was going on in the world of skateboarding videos, a lot of low cameras super close to the board meant you could see all the action we really care about. It helped the game feel real. Like you were watching the skate video but controlling the action. It was a trippy feeling the first time. I obsessed over those games... I gotta bust out my PS3.
I appreciate Monster Hunter World's monster-tracking camera, especially how you can set it to just snap the camera towards the monster when you press a button or to continuously track it automatically, depending on your preference. Or you can forgo it entirely and just control the camera manually. I've used all three in different situations.
Been following these guys for a while and their stuff is so high quality and I'm down for it. Glad to see they're posting more often makes me really excited for upcoming videos. keep it coming guys! :D
Good point! Overwatch has a bunch of really good first person animation quirks to differentiate character. New Frame Plus did a cool video on it if anyone's interested: th-cam.com/video/7Dga-UqdBR8/w-d-xo.html
Plus it goes to third-person view, depending on some abilities or ultimates (e.g. when Reinhardt and Brigitte got their barriers up, or when Hammond goes into ball mode).
I think I got around 10 hours into God of War before I stopped playing. It is something I will go back to eventually. Ultimately I think the camera is one of its biggest issues. A lot of outlets described it as an open world game but it felt very linear and I can see now its partly due to the camera. I missed the more sprawling open scale of the original games even though they were completely linear. A lot of very cool things could've been done with the player perspective, closer camera turning very grandly into something more open n dynamic for combat etc. Anyway hopefully the game proves me wrong when I finally return to it. Another eye opening video Mark!
What if the camera was part of the difficulty? Like, on harder difficulty let the camera give you less information, forcing you to figure things out yourself, or mentally keep track of enemies you're fighting.
Mark Brown, it is your videos, alongside many videogames I've played in my, what has convinced that I need to develop and design videogames. It's my first year of computer engineering in University, and I like the career, someday, I'm going to have all of the concepts I need to be a programmer and I will be able to make videogames I hope. So thank you, you are the best content creator I've seen on TH-cam.
Oof, yeah I haven't played the new God of War, but that camera looks like a pain to deal with during combat. Just watching it makes me feel confined and claustrophobic.
Fun fact, The Dutch angle is often also referred to as the Batman Angle, since it was often used in the 60s batman tv show to frame more villains at once.
Ahhh i love your channel! You are so good at analyzing and giving critism and you are not lazy with inserting clips from different gameplay! Just wanted to tell you, how much i appreciate admire your hard work :D
I think GoW's camera works in combat perfectly, when you can't see attacks coming from your back, it really keeps you on your toes, making the game deliciously harder, and engages you with your weapon, the axe. I think changing the camera like Arkham games does would be a waste of cinematic greatness. It is pretty easy to get used to it and kind of start to think with the axe and the camera. I don't know, it feels flawless to me :) Great video as always!
Resident Evil's camera angles were heavily inspired by another horror classic, Alone In The Dark trilogy, which featured (and possibly introduced) many of survival horror tropes featured in early RE games. In fact, you could say that Resident Evil is the spiritual successor to Alone In The Dark. God Of War camera might be less effective than in earlier games, but this is not a bad thing by itself -- it's just different. It definitely fits the game better, as latest GoW is indeed a more personal, grounded game, and the camera also makes combat more realistic and grounded. Moreover, the camera makes you worry about the surroundings the same way Kratos worries about Atreus, and this mimicking helps player to get into Kratos' current mindset. The suggestion to zoom out the camera during battles would definitely ruin that, and frankly it's not even needed from gameplay perspective.
I know you wanted bad examples but I wanted to mention my favourite example of cinematic camerawork: Brothers A Tale of Two Sons has really beautiful environment design and the camera tends to position itself in a way so that often you’re looking down on some beautiful landscape below, or your seeing something interesting in the distance that you’re heading towards. It really lets you appreciate the artwork in the level designs.
Shout out to Metroid Prime's camera. Retro managed to make the morph ball work in 3D so well I didn't even notice it was weird until after I played the 2D games.
@@rarepepe4697 it literally wasn't a bug, it was a covanent in the Ringed City that allowed you to invade another player's world instead of fighting an npc
I also notice in some games like DMC the camera kind of helps you with everything in the frame. Enemies that arent in view of the camera dont attack you and kind of sit tight until theyre within the camera's viewpoint in some of these titles.
"Worst camera"? I've gotta mention a small PS2 platformer called _Portal Runner._ It actually wasn't the camera itself, but the interaction with the game's controls that created the problem: you were free to rotate the camera (via right stick) as you pleased, but all your movement was in _character-relative_ directions (like a first-person game) rather than camera-relative directions (as is standard now). So long as you kept the camera facing (approximately) the same direction as your character, no problem; but if you wanted to shift the camera to any different angle (like side-on) you had to keep in mind that "up" on the control stick now means sideways (on the screen). By contrast, the camera in early Tomb Raider games worked largely because it was locked behind Lara (so your character-relative directions mapped intuitively to the camera angle), and would only snap to a different angle in certain cases (such as backing Lara up against a wall where the camera will no longer "fit"). For the most part, any section requiring speed and precision in movement had enough space for the camera to follow Lara from its default position; any section tight enough to constrain the camera allowed you the time to navigate it at your own pace (with or without input errors).
Whoa, those camera controls sound like a *nightmare* for Portal Runner. What were the devs thinking?! Honestly, I want to try this game out based on your comment alone (I'll probably use an emulator). I have to see this monstrosity for myself lol
@@VeteranXGaming The worst part? They advertised it as a feature on the back of the box (the "Orbit Cam"), and this was during the early PS2 era when camera-relative controls were _already the standard_ in 3D games (Mario 64, Spyro, Jak, etc). Again, not so much a fundamentally bad design decision or that you couldn't adapt to it (remember: "up" means forward _for your character_ not onscreen), but it clashed with changing industry norms and feels horribly non-intuitive now.
@@Stratelier wow, I love it when "features" make the game more crappy. And I can easily see how non-intuitive those controls would be within a modern age. Like, imagine if The Witcher 3 or Mario Odyssey had these controls. It'd would be *disgusting*
@@VeteranXGaming Fun fact: Monster Hunter games actually have an option for whether you want the left analog stick to be interpreted as camera-relative or character-relative (camera-relative is the default).
@@Stratelier oh really? 200 hours in on Monster Hunter World and I never knew that. I never would've guessed! I'm going to give that a shot and see "how it feels"
That was definitely the quickest 12 minutes of my life. I just wanted to say that your videos are some of the most captivating and well-edited on TH-cam and seeing a new one in my subscription feed really brings a smile to my face. Well done!
Spencer Will could not say that better, great vid mark
Agreed
Spencer Will Same team man, so good !
Same here Spencer it really brings a smile to my face too :D
This...now this is a perfect comment
Minecraft´s third person view is horrific
yeah it's just unplayable
That's why it's not standard I guess
It would be so much better if your crosshair was above your head instead of inside it. Or shifted to the side. There's probably a ton of ways to make it work but the one they went with is idiotic
@@reklessbravo2129 I gues if you turned it to the side as in a 3rd person shooter, like an over the shoulder cam, it could work.
I remember spending hours modding the third person camera on the game.
It wasn't impossible, changing the crosshair and the Fov was enough, but the hitscan for your hand got offset and aiming with bows and modded guns was a challenge XD
I must say, just a tiny detail about a camera: when you start the game in sunset overdrive the camera is near the protagonist. He is looking around and then noticing the camera and punching it way back, it feels like the character is annoyed over the camera that is way to near for him to actually fight. And I just love that the map is right under a crack in the screen because he smacked it!
The self awareness of Sunset Overdrive was something else...
We need a sequel...
I was always impressed by Breath of the Wild's targeting system that seems to center the camera at a half-way point between you and your enemy. If you rotate the camera, it creates some really great cinematic fight scenes.
Kinda like a fight I an arena
Really cool when you lock on to a lynel and then run away
I honestly hated it, my main problem was how it wrestled with the controls for things like jumping to get flurry attacks, hard to jump in the right direction if the camera is at a 45 degree angle, but I do understand the appeal.
I think that is the best third person camera ever.
I really loved how Nier Automata's camera changes even the genre of the game, swigging from a brawler like devilmay cry to a classic arcade game like galaga or even a shooter-platformer like Contra. Or maybe is better to say that moving the camera allowed the game to make those changes of style.
The camera is Journey is truly amazing. Not only does it add to the sublime nature of the game and the smallness of your character, but the way the camera pushes to the sides to hint at where you should be heading is such a fantastic way to avoid 'gamey' elements like waypoints
I loved this so much!! The 'leading' camera is such a powerful tool
Yep, Thatgamecompany also gave a very nice GDC talk pointing out the many steps to follow in order to have a good camera, it's very interesting
I was thinking about this during the video, too. It's so good.
@@drGeppo great video
@@drGeppo Ooh, thanks for this comment. That's something I'm definitely going to have to check out!
I mean I was half expecting the old joke of the Camera being the final boss of Dark Souls
The camera is the warm-up boss, the lock-on system is the final boss.
Specifically, switching lock-on while running or dashing. You'll pivot on a dime to face the new lock without losing speed at all.
We all know the true final boss is Gravity, Seeker of Autumn.
Kicking is the final boss of Dark Souls
Basically King of the Storm bossfight
@@MrCmon113 it's easy af. Just move forward and press the attack button
So great to see ARMS getting a little love here. I know it didn't see massive levels of success, but the behind-the-back perspective and use of relative size to gauge distance was such a refreshing idea.
It's not as big a failure as people seem to dismiss it as being - While it doesn't seem to have garnered much of a competitive following, and it's no longer in the top 10 Nintendo published games on Switch, it sold in the upper echelon of what a non-licensed fighting game tends to wind up doing these days, as a new IP.
@@Stephen-Fox preach
i think it would've done better if they had levels to help you master the controls better or didn't force you to win the volleybomb, target gallery, or basket ball rounds in the single player, some arms are terrible for volleybomb!
Daryl Talks Games it makes such good use of motion controls, too. Playing the game with detached joy-cons is the only way to truly play it, where you’ve got to be precise about how you hold the controllers.
@@Stephen-Fox Absolutely. Believe it or not, it's sold similarly to Bloodborne and Persona 5 and no one would call those games failures, now would they? The game only did poorly when compared their absolute biggest hitters. In general, it did well
I appreciate you saying "Bat Funk" in this video.
That is all
@@laptoprelaks a true american
"The camera is like the working class.
If you can't control it, it will conspire to kill you."
Yahtzee, Zero Punctuation.
US police know this only too well.
Crooked Hillary knows this only too well. The Chinese communist party knows this only too well. Maduro knows this only too well.
You didn't need to put Yahtzee there, we would have known regardless.
Which episode?
@@swiftd3vil blah blah china bad blah blah...shut up stupid boy!!!
Whenever picking up a new 3D platformer, the first thing that tips me off is how the camera works.
Yooka Laylee pre-fix was a key example of this because it really felt like the camera was fighting you. Always best to have some free mobility in a game like that.
Mario Oddysey's camera is a bit like that sometimes, like at points it'll force you to look a certain way and it fights with you when you're trying to move the camera
A Hat in Time was a really good camera. Hopefully 3D Platformers in the future can learn from how Gears For Breakfast did it!
funny seeing you here
I got really scared when the video didn't start with "Hi, I'm Mark Brown and this is Game Makers Toolkit"
WHO ARE YOU?! LARK CROWN??
He hasn’t done it in a while I think
OR EVEN WORSE! WHAT IF IT'S BARK MROWN!
He hasn't used it in a while, about a year I think
hi i'm Fart Lowne and this is blame placer's cool pit
@@suetraptor2703 ROFL!!!
Another thing which makes Hellblade's camera good was the fact that the voices warn you about attacks from behind
Even when there aren't any, just to keep you off balance.
Hellblade needs headphones in the same way other games need controllers.
Like 100 times the "boy"
@@Ninjat126 So it's like Amnesia, where you're told to hide, but 99% of the time you're not really in danger?
Midgard Eagle I enjoy games lying to you in order to induce paranoia. Both of those games want you not to trust the character’s senses
Regarding God of War's enemies being "less aggressive" when off-camera... I've noticed a similar trick used in the Ratchet & Clank games. Enemies will never attack if you can't see them. It's a nice touch - makes the game a lot more player-friendly.
I love the dynamic camera from Nier Automata
I love it. Too bad he didn't mention the game (well, he did show it)
More 3D games should shift the camera to 2D for some sections. It’s so dynamic
I hate 2D camera
Even fits the gameplay perfectly.
they transition from 3d to 2d so well that i spent my first hour of the game admiring it
Is there no discussion about "Camera who fight the Player". Example 3rd perspective camera with wide view angle suddenly collide with terrain like wall and make the camera so close to character you can't see anything.
Or automatically go with the direction you walk in, so you have to move your mouse to keep a stable angle while going sideways.
Metal Gear Rising Revengeance does just that. It's basically one of the foes of the game. In game about precision parrying, that's a very bad flaw.
Soulsborne is notorious for that. Cleric Beast totally double teams you with its trusty sidekick, the camera.
Dark Souls' hardest boss is the Camera.
its understandable why the camera does that. prevents you from being able to see out of bounds. annoying? yes.
Monster Hunter World
"Yes game, I know another monster has entered the area, but I'm currently getting my face chewed on because you decided to it was more important to point the camera at this new monster instead of the one I'm locked in combat with."
Oh god, yeah. The dreaded "necksnap" as I've started calling it. It straight up got me killed a couple times.
Yeah, that was unfortunate but at least it only happens when you haven't seen the monster before
Bubsy 3D, easy. The way it disorients you when you jump or get hit or sneeze is truly a masterpiece of camerawork.
Yeah man, the team that designed that game should go down in history as one of the best of all time. Some master class shit there
Sonic Adventure 2's camera, hands down.
Need to backtrack? Well, the camera has decided that it's going to always be oriented forward, whether you want it to or not. Want to side-track to do optional mission stuff, and you need to do precision platforming over death pits? Well that's tough, the camera just decided it wanted to re-orient 90+ degrees while you were hover-jumping in your Tails or Eggman mech, and now you're floating in a horseshoe pattern down to your demise.
And don't get me started about the stupid loop-de-loops. 3d just totally has hold-ups, when it comes to classic sonic rollercoaster setpieces.
"And don't get me started about the stupid loop-de-loops"
Nah, I'm getting started. Don't try to actually make them work in 3D, just litter them with boost pads so the player doesn't even get to play the game!! BRILLIANT!!!
In fact, a lot of 3D Sonic is just "don't touch the controls, or you'll interrupt this sequence of boost pads, springs, and literal rails and you'll die!" and it's complete garbage. Adding grind rails in SA2 was basically an admission that they couldn't figure out how to make the game work and thus needed to just railroad you while you watched rather than played. I hate all of those games.
Having recently replayed this game which I adored as a kid I have to agree that it’s the worst camera in any game I’ve played, in addition to all your points the inability to look up or down and then being asked to essentially jump into the unknown constantly causes a lot of frustrating deaths.
@@mjc0961 Y'know what's sad? Its that the solution to loops in 3D Sonic is simple: just add a slope in front of the loop that can be used to build up enough speed, and add a spline path that guides the player through the loop. There is absolutely no need for boosting, auto-running or boost pads, but Sonic Team keeps using them.
I loved that game. But I agree that the camera was godawful
The camera in Oni avoids getting stuck on walls by just making the walls translucent. Such a simple solution, I don't know why other games don't do it.
A lot of ps2 era games do this.
Third person days today don't do it because with deferred shading transparency gets really performance heavy.
AFAIK you need an extra rendering pass to do it.
Thus the games that do it (MGSV comes to mind) make objects in front of the camera dithered rather than transparent.
Sekiro had an interesting take on the transparency. With the objects made translucent to avoid obscuring the view would still make things blurry behind them.
@@Killicon93 The dithering effect is really noticeable on Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun
Some do, but as SundayRoast pointed out it's less common in games today because of the sheer amount of computing power it takes to do it efficiently/consistently. I do see it in tons of 2D games, but they do it for different reasons as that's not an issue there.
Oni. Such a cool game that blended martial arts amd guns. It felt very different to me at the time. Big fan!
In your highlight of Arkham Asylum's variety of camera use, I was immediately reminded of how Metal Gear Solid made use of the same sort of dynamic situational camera functionality. The early games were somewhat like a moving Resident Evil camera where the perspective was mostly fixed for each area but it still moved with the player. By MGS3 and MGS4 it became followed the player more often in a third person mode. It adjusted to first person mode for air vents and in boxes, moved around corners when in stealth, zoomed in to aim down sights, and went wide in a whole variety of cinematic shots even outside of cutscenes. By MG5 with its open world design it was mostly in third person following though.
Slightly disappointed in this video for the sheer lack of praise or even mention of MGS as a whole, outside of the clip of Revengence anyway. Aside from those games being cinematic masterpieces, gameplay wise the camera is incredibly dynamic, I'd have to agree. Not unlike what Rocksteady did with the Arkham series.
Super Mario Odyssey has an amazing camera! And your description is absolutely right. It's so good, it makes itself invisible most of the time!
Speaking of that, I've heard somewhere that most of it is for it's scripted transitions, I never played the game but I guess most challenges are linear, devs know where the player is and what they want to see, so the devs scripted the camera to be perfect in such cases. This requires a lot of work but it is a solution.
To me, the camera in Mario Odyssey is easily the worst part of the game. It likes to sweep around and zoom out and just do whatever it wants, which honestly feels disorienting and distracting most of the time.
@@Questorium I might actually partly agree with you. Especially when you play as captures, the game has some angles it likes to stick to when your not moving your joystick and I wish I could just have more control
"Pics looks better if the subject is not in the center of the frame."
...and also so we're able to see where the heck we're going.
In the Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Link is in the center of the screen while riding a horse, but you can still see where you're going, so I think it is a mostly artistic choice for that game to use the rule of thirds.
Most third person games do this by making the camera point slightly overhead compared to the player. That game does indeed do something unique by also tilting aside.
@@CalebWillden As someone who's playing Red Dead Redemption 2 right now I am CONTINUOUSLY finding myself tilting the camera down so I can look over my character to see where I am going.
I'm also constantly swapping between my minimap and trying to find the roads that show up on there.
I haven't played BotW in a while so I don't recall how they handle it, but my point is that far from every game does it that well.
@@CalebWillden That's mostly because we have the freedom to put the camera above link and the horse to see the ground in front of us. It does become a problem when going down slopes, but so does the side-angle cameras whenever you turn to the side of the screen your character is on.
@@dddmemaybe I dont remember how it is in BOTW but I have always had a problem with this. In GTA while driving (I guess it´s the same in RDR2 since both are Rockstar games) you can tilt the camera to see where you´re going, BUT you can not fix the camera in a specific direction wich means you constantly have to keep fiddeling with the thumbstick wich I find really anoying....
The camera in Pokémon X/Y is fine unless you’re in Lumiose City. It’s like it tries to get you lost.
oh god, Lumiose city hurts.
X/Y ! Yeah! now that you mention it even though the camera was always fixed I never felt the need or desire to move it, like I sometimes did in sun/moon. The framing and angles chosen were usually ideal and relatively cinematic, for a handheld pokemon game.
But screw Lumiose City.
lmaooooo the camera in Lumiose City is so terrible. tbh there's a few spots in Sw/Sh where the camera is pretty bad too.
Yeah, I kept unconsciously trying to move the camera with the analog >.< You can't even read the route numbers on top of the gates unless you get really close to it and then back off again
for some reason I absolutely hated that place. was so tired of hearing the same music over and over again and having no idea where to go because the camera seems to want to be as inconvenient as possible.
5 years ago I started a simple 2D spaceships game for iOS just for fun, controlling a dynamic camera was by far the most complex part but it was a lot of fun.
Fascinating video!!
Also Rocksteady's work with in-game cameras is probably second to none! So glad that they're recognized. I spent ages just gliding around in the third arkham game just admiring all the tiny details with the game camera!
Ror2 camera is actually insane how effective it is for third person
Yeah but the Camera cant be blamed for my loss so its complete shit
as of writing this this was made 2 years ago on a year old video. it has 5 likes and below it is a comment with 535 likes and above it is a comment with 6.2k likes. how are you the second comment i saw with almost no like and recentally. im impressed
@@Cicero760 cuz yt be like
" ooo verified mmmm gimme ur balls"
@@RedRiotRoss i feel like i need to respond to this but i dont know how to respond to MMMMMM TH-cam BE LIKE GEMME YUR NUT
@MUHAMMAD ASYRAAF HANIS BIN ABD KHAIRUSYAHIDI - risk of rain 2 from what i googled
11:03
EA didnt really find a new style. they mimic the style of skate videos.
the important part in a skate video is the board and the foot work. so thats what is in focus in the videos.
EA did a good job in copying the style though. it makes the player feel like they are a professional skater trying to film the next big thing
Coping and adapting the camera, they would easily just copy it but it need to be translated to gameplay, so it's technically a new style if you see it as what it is, a game.
EA's sports game nearly always do this. When there are examples of how the sport would be filmed in real life, this is integrated. In racing games you get the same tight FOV in filler shots, in soccer games you get a view from above, as though filmed by a crane, and then filler shots from the ground crew. In sports games realism is usually the goal, and having a camera that does what it would do in real life adds to the immersion. I especially like how in golf games the safe thing to do would be to just have the camera follow the ball, so you can actually see whats happening. Instead, the camera is stationary and the ball could shrink to like 10 pixels in size on screen, meaning that the actual gameplay part of the game is minimized on the screen in favor of you being immersed into this golfing competition.
One of the only 3rd person cams I've actually _enjoyed_ was Dead Space... I really like how they immersed you in the world, and made the health bar an integrated part of the suit.
The crappy peripheral vision adds to the claustrophobia and fear, and you end up frantically sweeping the camera around trying to not miss anything.
That game did horror, suspense, 3rd person, and what I call "basic action" better than almost everything else.
P.S. Basic Action is what I call very simplified versions of shooters, or very stripped down combat systems built to fit as a part of a whole and not the focus. Often those systems suck, but I think Dead Space did it very well.
i couldn't think of a better example, dead space camera extremely well made, the camera even get a little further away on low grav parts of the game, and during interactive cutscenes, like the tentacle thing that grabs you it makes it fell tense and scary but also making the gameplay clear and interesting
I was thinking of the same thing. Too bad Mark didn't mention it at least once in the video concerning camera in video games. Would have loved to see Mark's take on Dead Space.
@@StellarStreak you're in luck. He's made a 3 part series examining each and every mainline dead space game, breaking down its mechanics and seeing how the game changed each time. It's some of his best work imo.
I've been on a VR craze after getting an Oculus Quest for Christmas last month...
I really want to know more about a game's camera mechanics when the entire thing is COMPLETELY controlled by the player like in VR.
I played through Moss and this enamoured craze thing started in the first place at being able to physically lean in forwards or backwards as per needed to make a precision jump or get an overview of the whole scene.
I realised how many cinema tricks game cameras use to frame shots, for example if you want to show that a monster is really big you might get the camera panning out further to show that it's the size of a building... but VR made me realise that'd be unnecessary because you can literally see how big it is because it's right next to you...
... But on the other hand it faces the issue of not being able to force the player to look at something which should be seen. A minor example but early on in Moss there's a cutscene where a bird flies overhead and the main character hides from it... I saw the bird approach and looked at that and took a few seconds to see where the character had gone. Which wouldn't have been an issue if it were a traditional game which can force the camera to look where the cutscene wants you to look.
etc.
Do a video on lockpicking/hacking minigames!!!
This is as good as place as any to mention Actionbutton's analysis of Bioshock 2. They loved how the hacking minigames were integrated in real-time compared to Bioshock 1.
Or rather, not just lockpicking/hacking, but mini-games in general, which tries to represent something usually boring from player's perspective and is that even the right thing to do, check GTA 5 and Online also for wide variety of seemingly unique mini-games
I feel like no game has ever done locking picking better than the Gothic series. Every other game feels the need to show you some kind of UI representation of a lock that pointlessly tries to recreate what lock picking actually does instead of what it feels like to do.
the original thief had a good system which simply had you hold down the interact button with a lock pick in hand over a door. It also had two different lockpicks which had to be tried to determine the right one. This system made you feel stressed as the door nob slowly turned and guards moved on their patrol paths, possible straight into you.
Nier Automata had really great hacking mini games
Hard to criticize when it's one of the first attempts at a 3D camera, but the camera in Mario 64 drives me crazy. It often swings all over the place with no input from you, and will completely ruin an attempt to navigate across a narrow bridge.
Ironically - I found that the best way to use the Mario 64 camera was to leave it alone, if you try to change the camera you have to fight it for the rest of the level... all though Mario 64 gets grace for being early attempt at 3d camera the remake doesn't get that grace for me - they could have fixed the camera
You do know that there's like 3 different camera "modes" in SM64, plus the far / near options for all of them ?
@@GugureSux there are - and they are all somehow equally bad (mostly because the cameraman lakitu can't move through walls...)
I have mastered the camera and dont have any issues with it anymore
It has a high skill floor, but I find that SM64's camera gets a lot of unnecessary flack. Once you get it, it gets the job done perfectly.
I've been watching these videos for years, and just wanted to let you know that I am going to start applying some of these lessons in Dreams! So thank you for these great videos!
oh im gonna get that game, whats your psn so i can check your stuff out
Flexing on people without the console smh my head
Oof
Holy Crap! I never even heard of Dreams until I read your comment! Thanks I'm excited to try it out now!
I like that in the Batman Arkham series, the longer the combo, the more the camera zooms out (and the acrion slows) to allow for even better control and combo length.
Unfortunately they still have some random close-ups that can cause you to get hit
I wish you could devote an entire video to Nier:Automata's camera. The shifts of perspective in that game are a work of art in themselves.
Nier's camera is great up until it forces me to stair up 2bs skirt whenever she climbs a latter. It's a pervert game.
@@seanmcdonald1111 then it becomes a masterpiece
@@seanmcdonald1111 what's wrong with that
@@seanmcdonald1111 listen to this uncultured pleb Saying it like it's a bad thing.
@@seanmcdonald1111Nah I feel u, that was a big reason I never playef it.
I love how when you climb walls in Breath of the Wild the camera turns to show Link from the side, with the environment behind him. And Destiny’s third person switch when you have a relic or a super is amazing.
Justin Knutson Breath of the Wild has a lot of dynamic camera shifts to not only suit the gameplay but show you the prettiest possible camera angle too
The camera in FTL is the worst. I mean think about it :
-You have to pay for the complete experience
-It stops working in certain areas
-It doesn't work properly against the last boss
-It can even get damaged
-Sometimes you don't even have one!
took me a while, but this comment has some depth to it: sometimes the camera can be obscured in some ways, and have that be a part of the mechanics. I guess prime example is the fog of war, but I remember an rts with a more fluid view of the battlefiled, where the camera would start to have more and more noise on top as you left the seen area.
What is FTL?
@@chairityowner3028 Faster than light, just look it up on steam or mobile.
Massively underrated comment, well played you dork :D
@@chairityowner3028 A game called Faster Than Light. He's referring to the sensors (shown as a camera icon) on your ship which shows you details about the enemy. It can be upgraded to show more stats, or destroyed making it really hard to see what's happening on your ship.
A third person camera really makes you FEEL like Spiderman.
But a first person camera makes you FEEL like you are the person who you are playing... So should spiderman ps4 be first person in order to make you FEEL even more like spiderman?
Well you can't feel those flips and quick movements of Spiderman in First person as they will look horrible.
That’s a good point, but I’d say no. I feel the major selling point of how Spider-Man moves in comparison to other super heroes is he’s highly acrobatic. Flips and somersaults and spins and cartwheels are all common aspects of his movement while swinging, parkouring and also in combat. Having the camera do full 360 degree spins ever few seconds would be super nauseating, and trying to fudge it to covey the motion of the movement like Blizzard does with McCree’s combat roll in Overwatch I feel would either be so frequent it would get disorientating, or not really sell each individual movement and how it differed from Spider-Man’s last flip.
@@orr4337 not really, spider-sense make spiderman aware of his surrounding pretty much anytime and made him hard to shoot even at point blank. 3rd person camera is as close as it get for us mortal human to understand how his spider sense work.
Well if you think that, you should hear about this Batman game that just came out!
Thank you for the balanced critique of GoW’s camera. I am so befuddled as to why more people haven’t discussed it’s tolerable, but still present, design flaws.
check out mattewmatosis' case study on it most of the video is just that it's really well done here's the link: th-cam.com/video/IERHMMXeshc/w-d-xo.html
One of the best videos GMTK made wow. Your videos are generally awesome but this is a whole other level. Kudos to you.
Sitting at home sick when watching this.
My takeaway: I should buy and play Firewatch, right now.
So I did. It was a really nice experience.
You like the ending?
@@genehayes I didn't dislike it, and in the universe it was quite fitting. But I was almost expecting more.
Then again, I supposed that was somewhat the point. I did feel bit paranoid.
Punch-Out Wii should get an honorable mention not just for the behind-the-back camera like ARMS, but how the camera moves with Little Mac and his opponents. I recall New Frame Plus go more into detail about that.
Well, that kind of camera comes from the older Punch Out games, and it's also a single player game, while the point of the ARMS camera comes from Mario Kart (interesting, isn't it?) Where the point it's to allow a more comfortable and easy to read gameplay for people new to the fighting games allowing them to see the punch literally coming from a long distance, creating then the concept of elastic arms.
I mean, I consider Boxing and Fighting games on 2 seperate levels, after all, you want a side view in Wrestling and UFC games or Mortal Kombat, but in Boxing, you want to be behind your own fists, as you're controlling each of them separately,
you're not just tapping square 3 times to give a left jab, a right jab, and a left hook, you're pushing the left joystick forward, pressing the right joystick forward, then pushing the left joystick to the side and pushing it up from the side to do a hook,
worst camera ever!? that's an easy one.
Bubsy 3D
I see you haven't played The Adventures of Mr. Fluffykins.. I planned on writing a completely serious review of this game as an April fools video, but about 30s in you have to walk down some stairs and the camera bounced on every single step. I instantly refunded it, I couldn't deal with that for any longer haha
It's not the worst... but how about Metal Gear Rising Revengeance? You are required to show the direction you are going to block/parry with the thumbstick, while pressing square. But the camera does this bit more challenging than it needs to be by being really close. By flipping it around if you are using lock-on as enemy attacks so you are sure to miss the attack. Also in the corners it jumps around and sometimes doesn't show the action very well. :D
I love the game, but the camera is something I wish they would have fixed. Because it's not nice to get hit at last second because the camera starts act up.
Pilot's License? WHAT FOR?
I feel like bubsy is more a control issue than a camera one
Pilot's license? What for?
"First-person camera doesn't usually work in platforming, but Mirror's Edge..."
Ahem.
_Metroid Prime_
I think he was talking about games that are primarily platformers. Also, he had to make a choice, he can't cite every game that makes a good work with camera.
@@bobiboulon I know that was a joke. Mirror's Edge is already the go-to example everyone cites for first-person platforming it's not controversial.
@@shingshongshamalama Ok, np.^^ I was mostly reacting because MoofEMP was adding yet other games, and I know some people can get frustrated when their favorite game isn't cited in a relevant video. ;)
Hold my cubes;
M I N E C R A F T
@@bobiboulon oh look it's me
this is one of the comments that must have been nuked when i attempted to switch to a brand channel
I would love to see a video on camera for dialogues, and how different they are from game to game. Some just zoom into the NPC you're talking to and stay there for all of the dialogue, while others don't zoom in at all and just use the default camera view. Others have a more cinematic flair, with the camera switching between the player and the NPC, as well as use different camera angles. Some work better than others, and for RPGs it's pretty important that it works well.
Best / Worst camera is the Cinematic camera in GTA while driving.
It would probably be the best camera if auto drive is a thing tho
So truee, it's better in red dead redemption 2 where you can still move the horse where you want, with all the difficulty of the fast changes, and let the IA does it work and enjoy the view while the horse goes by itself
Good thing it's not the only camera angle in the game. :D
Except the X button causes your horse to walk in place if you had stepped away from the game lol. I was also disappointed that when the automatic cinematic camera triggers while driving a train, it cancels you holding X and the train slows to a stop, and hitting X again cancels the cinematic camera. (And yes I know you can manually start the cinematic camera.)
man i love your channel. its awesome, its entertaining and it just makes me happy. thank you.
But the camera is a bit off sometimes, and by that I mean that it doesn't make me FEEL like Mark Brown XD
I always remember a Batman game (Black Mask it something along those lines) which used a fixed perspective like Resident Evil, but without tank controls, so each time you rounded a corner Batman would suddenly jerk around to head in a different direction because due to the reorientation of the screen in relation to the control stick. And it even happened during boss fights! So sometimes you’d move slightly and suddenly be aiming on the other side of the room from where you were aiming before, while the enemy pumped you full of lead.
you made me appreciate the work that goes into camera angles so much more that i might reinstall resident evil remaster to finish it
Every time I go back and play an N64 game my first thought is "boy, cameras have really come a long way in all those years"
Honestly I'm glad they did the camera the way they did in God of War. It made the action feel visceral, and made you have to control your tunnel vision like Kratos has to die to his rage. It made it so you had to be ruthless but concentrated. It also made it so you feel close to Kratos when he's most himself, during combat.
Honestly there could be a whole series on cameras, such an important part of any game.
You mean 3D cameras? Because there aren't only 3D games, nor are they only action oriented.
So neglected too. Most 3D games have cameras as good as clunky 2D fan games
"[Dark Souls] puts you up against one enemy at a time"
*DS2 laughing noises*
I have just one specific pet peeve about cameras: When you peek around a corner and your character tilts his head, but also the camera suddenly also tilts. The thing is, our brains are great at correcting tilts like that, but a camera not. That's why I love cameras that are a bit closerer to the human perception! :^)
Here is another one: Lens flare streaks go vertical for us (just squint your eyes a bit and you'll see it), while most cameras (lenses) bend them horizontal, but I prefer the horizontal look, because it reminds me of anamorphic lenses aka the cinematic widescreen aesthetic.
So lemme get this straight... you want a camera experience that better emulates human perception but you want horizontal lens flares because the vertical ones that emulate human perception aren't as cool XD
Everyone talking about good cameras in the comments
Mark: *Am I a joke to you?*
And what about camera control as a gameplay action ? Shouldn't we dicuss games which gamify the camera and those in which players can use framing, camera's angles, movement or speed to face challenges ? Because, once we aknowledge that most video-games have to deal with build-in cameras, there are many wonderfull and playfull things to do with it. A few examples :
It can be as simple as binoculars and sights allowing players to look or aim further (through zoom or depth of field), while quite a few FPS and RPG use some variations of "X-ray vision", slow-motion powers, light sources or lack thereof (including the classic dungeon dilemma "you can either hold a torch or a shield"), other play with blood, blur, weather conditions and particules obscuring the screen as penalty or new challenges, Metro even asking players to regularly wipe your vision clean.
Various platformers only allow players to look around when the character isn't moving, Hyper Light Drifter even require you to stop in order to shoot, Fez reveals its third dimension through camera rotation, many strategy games let players pan-out in various direction to look at the map beyond their borders (with or without for of war), numerous third person and even tactical games ask that you reach high view-points to reveal the environment, some give you camera-drones or camera-birds to explore even further.
More directly, Fatal Frame, Outlast or Five night at Freddy's use their different in-game cameras not only for jump-scares but largely as a mean of exploration and interaction (not even mentioning "found footage" horror games now constituting a sub-genre).
See, this is why I have some issues with 2D Sonic games. In Sonic Mania, the camera is hellbent on having your character be smack-dab in the middle of the screen. Except, if you're running at the high speeds the games want you to be, there isn't enough time to react to some of the stage elements which makes them feel like a "Gotcha!" moment. If the camera were to pull Sonic away from the middle of the screen depending on his speed, it would both give the player more screen space to react, as well as add to the feeling of speed and momentum.
Well, better than the old sonic games that let you outrun the camera, because *EXTREME!*
@@RAFMnBgaming in pretty sure that when you outran the camera it was a glitch that they didn't intend.
@@bobafettjr85 No, it was deliberately implemented, "because EXTREME".
I really like L4D's camera. The first person snaps to third person when you're restricted by an infected or fallen off a ledge. A good way to inform you that you are unable to do anything until help arrives, while letting you look around for said help and possible threats to warn them about.
I'm struggling to think of the worst camera but I love the camera in the Mass Effect series.
While exploring the area, the camera zooms out with you in the centre. This allows you to properly observe your surroundings, either to search for loot, or more often, use the scenery to set some of the tone..
When you draw your weapon but aren't fine aiming, it shifts so that you cover the left third of the screen. This keeps the action in front of you while still leaving some peripheral vision to observe the battlefield. It also turns rapidly so you can adapt to incoming threats.
While holding the aim button, it zooms to an over-the-shoulder view, and slow turn rate. This allows a great view for precision shots.
Finally, the conversation camera is almost always centred on someones face. When it isn't, it's usually because multiple characters are talking in quick succession, or something in the background is being referenced.
nah, I'm pretty sure in lara's case the camera serves a different purpose.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
MoofEMP yes that perfectly describes it thank you
@@MastalinkZ This guy gets it
We definitely want to be intimate with Lara
One thing I kinda wish you’d mention is automatic camera movement vs letting the player move the camera. For example: in Mario odyssey the camera will frequently reset behind the character by itself. Where as Zelda BotW leaves most of the camera work up to the player excluding the lock on.
While it is more work on my part to move the camera if it doesn’t move as much automatically. I prefer that because I like having that amount of control as to where I’m looking, and I find it frustrating when a camera is resetting back to behind the character when I want to look at a certain angle
Yes! Self-moving cameras make my blood boil. They feel like trying to control a stubborn child or corral a recalcitrant cat.
@@rhubarbjin Self moving cameras are my biggest gripe with Shadow of the Colossus. Following the rule of thirds is nice and all, but I prefer the camera to be straight behind me so I can see dead ahead and won't feel slightly confused with the controls by the shifting camera.
@@rhubarbjin Yeah they drive me nuts, having to constantly adjust the camera to stop it from moving itself is infuriating.
0:52 Alien: Isolation has a VR mod, in case you want even MORE immersion.
Help. The alien isn't even here and I'm scared.
I really appreciate seeing Killer7 make an appearance here, it would be interesting if you had talked about it too, considering its many different cameras for walking, aiming, and action sequences like reloading or counter attacks, plus the cameras in certain events such as the Encounter bossfight.
First of all, great video! I never noticed all of the subtle way that cameras can be used to promote focus and convey emotion! And I do remember being frustrated when I get attacked by something off screen in God of War. But I kind of enjoyed it because it made Kratos seem older and more vulnerable, and the fights more frantic. I had to learn to position myself on the battlefield, which made me feel like Kratos learning to fight again after getting rusty.
The camera in some of the 3d platformer mario games almost ALWAYS had me yelling in frustration. I couldn't say exactly how or why but the way you could swing the camera or the camera swung for you often hid cliffs or holes or made judging the distance on them difficult.
Super Mario 64 DS remake was almost unplayable because of this (or I suck :D)
More of an unusual camera than a bad camera, but Ape Escape has a boss battle done with an enemy's-eye-view camera. Jak 2 also has a chase level where you get the point-of-view of the monster chasing you.
I hated the boss camera in Ape Escape. It took me way too long to realize what was happening.
The camera vs DarkBeast Paarl in Bloodborne is one I remember being horrible. It might be a Soulsborne issue when it comes to large bosses.
Camerabeast paarl. I think they camera in the Ludwig fight is a really good example of camera in a beast fight, rarely had an issue where I couldn't see what was going on
I do not remember suffering much on Darkbeast Paarl, or the majority of large bosses, but in Orphan of Kos... man...
Every time I locked-on in the boss, he'd come running in my direction, and while I was struggling to not stare at the floor, he just beat the hell out of me with that placenta thing.
It was improved a bit in Bloodborne and particularly Dark Souls 3 by having the camera back up when large bosses are on screen. The same effect is utilized after the first real area boss, Vordt; the camera backs up so the player gets a very wide angle shot over the entirety of Lothric to see every area they’ll explore in the game. Other examples include the camera backing up during the boss fight against Midir to get a clearer view of his enormity and the movement of all his limbs, so the player gets more info on screen.
Just unlock the camera and bind dodge/run to L1.
I feel like Amygdala is fucking impossible to fight while locked on too
Great video! I love when you tackle more general subjects in gaming.
I loved this! I feel like all these different aspects are indeed being subconsciously perceived by the players but not truly appreciated and thought about unless brilliantly put into words and explained like you did in this video. As you said, good cameras make themselves invisible.
Nicely done putting Far Cry 2 footage after Firewatch.
Wax House, Baby!
he gotta mention Far Cry 2 somehow ;)
Best camera is in Nier: Automata, I love the unique PS1 like locked perspectives.
It’s probably not the worst that I’ve experienced, but Yooka Laylee immediately comes to mind.
im still gonna name the best camera i have ever seen. its in "a way out" where the camera is completely driven by the narrative and adjusts as necessary. switching between splitscreen to third person to 2d from the side when fighting in a corridor. it was an amazing experience
I know it was a super short bit of the video, but the camera in Skate was imitating what was going on in the world of skateboarding videos, a lot of low cameras super close to the board meant you could see all the action we really care about. It helped the game feel real. Like you were watching the skate video but controlling the action. It was a trippy feeling the first time. I obsessed over those games... I gotta bust out my PS3.
I appreciate Monster Hunter World's monster-tracking camera, especially how you can set it to just snap the camera towards the monster when you press a button or to continuously track it automatically, depending on your preference. Or you can forgo it entirely and just control the camera manually. I've used all three in different situations.
The camera for Glover (N64). It is the hardest bossfight that never ends
Sonic 06, worst camera in any game ive ever played. It felt like it fought me every step of the way.
To be fair, Sonic 06 *does* fight you every step of the way
Is it worse than Bubsy 3D tho?
@@BornEvilXIII probably not, but he might not have played Bubsy
@@Kntrytnt thats right, i have not
most games have 3rd person cameras are ass
Been following these guys for a while and their stuff is so high quality and I'm down for it. Glad to see they're posting more often makes me really excited for upcoming videos. keep it coming guys! :D
Thanks for the recommendation Mark! You are truly the best! ♥️
Overwatch has different camera bob, depending on how the character walks.
Good point! Overwatch has a bunch of really good first person animation quirks to differentiate character. New Frame Plus did a cool video on it if anyone's interested: th-cam.com/video/7Dga-UqdBR8/w-d-xo.html
Plus it goes to third-person view, depending on some abilities or ultimates (e.g. when Reinhardt and Brigitte got their barriers up, or when Hammond goes into ball mode).
Can you imagine Hammonds rolling around in first person? 😂😂
@@lewashby8662 And for emotes, gotta peak around corners with the sit emotes..
I think I got around 10 hours into God of War before I stopped playing. It is something I will go back to eventually. Ultimately I think the camera is one of its biggest issues. A lot of outlets described it as an open world game but it felt very linear and I can see now its partly due to the camera. I missed the more sprawling open scale of the original games even though they were completely linear. A lot of very cool things could've been done with the player perspective, closer camera turning very grandly into something more open n dynamic for combat etc. Anyway hopefully the game proves me wrong when I finally return to it. Another eye opening video Mark!
What if the camera was part of the difficulty? Like, on harder difficulty let the camera give you less information, forcing you to figure things out yourself, or mentally keep track of enemies you're fighting.
I love all your work. Thanks for all the fantastic information you impart in every video. Much appreciated and greetings from South Africa.
Mark Brown, it is your videos, alongside many videogames I've played in my, what has convinced that I need to develop and design videogames. It's my first year of computer engineering in University, and I like the career, someday, I'm going to have all of the concepts I need to be a programmer and I will be able to make videogames I hope. So thank you, you are the best content creator I've seen on TH-cam.
Good luck!
Oof, yeah I haven't played the new God of War, but that camera looks like a pain to deal with during combat. Just watching it makes me feel confined and claustrophobic.
Thom Cote I didn't think it was when i played through the game. Honestly it feels like he's kind of exaggerating.
If you try it after a while you get used and atreus really keeps shouting all time for information about the enemies position
Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers had frustrating camera angles
yeah, some of them. Hate it when they either obscure important parts or make you run back and forth. But admittedly, I accustomed fairly well to it.
@@lilsliceofbread he talk about the game
Human Person it's actually a book series
7:30 “Because they can, of course, move during gameplay” Whaaat I had never noticed lol
Fun fact, The Dutch angle is often also referred to as the Batman Angle, since it was often used in the 60s batman tv show to frame more villains at once.
Ahhh i love your channel! You are so good at analyzing and giving critism and you are not lazy with inserting clips from different gameplay! Just wanted to tell you, how much i appreciate admire your hard work :D
I think GoW's camera works in combat perfectly, when you can't see attacks coming from your back, it really keeps you on your toes, making the game deliciously harder, and engages you with your weapon, the axe. I think changing the camera like Arkham games does would be a waste of cinematic greatness. It is pretty easy to get used to it and kind of start to think with the axe and the camera. I don't know, it feels flawless to me :) Great video as always!
Resident Evil's camera angles were heavily inspired by another horror classic, Alone In The Dark trilogy, which featured (and possibly introduced) many of survival horror tropes featured in early RE games. In fact, you could say that Resident Evil is the spiritual successor to Alone In The Dark.
God Of War camera might be less effective than in earlier games, but this is not a bad thing by itself -- it's just different. It definitely fits the game better, as latest GoW is indeed a more personal, grounded game, and the camera also makes combat more realistic and grounded. Moreover, the camera makes you worry about the surroundings the same way Kratos worries about Atreus, and this mimicking helps player to get into Kratos' current mindset. The suggestion to zoom out the camera during battles would definitely ruin that, and frankly it's not even needed from gameplay perspective.
From recent memory, the Shadow of the Colossus camera was absolute arse.
Again love the different topics and the ability to see gaming games I love and have played and those I am just now hearing about in brand new ways.
I know you wanted bad examples but I wanted to mention my favourite example
of cinematic camerawork: Brothers A Tale of Two Sons has really beautiful environment design and the camera tends to position itself in a way so that often you’re looking down on some beautiful landscape below, or your seeing something interesting in the distance that you’re heading towards. It really lets you appreciate the artwork in the level designs.
Shout out to Metroid Prime's camera. Retro managed to make the morph ball work in 3D so well I didn't even notice it was weird until after I played the 2D games.
"DS3 puts you up against 1 enemy at a time."
*WHAT.*
The camera.
Remember fighting Spear of the Church when Boss Invasions bug was a thing? Pepperidge farm remembers
@@rarepepe4697 it literally wasn't a bug, it was a covanent in the Ringed City that allowed you to invade another player's world instead of fighting an npc
"If fear. Of getting hit. In the tuchus." 6:07
lmao
I also notice in some games like DMC the camera kind of helps you with everything in the frame. Enemies that arent in view of the camera dont attack you and kind of sit tight until theyre within the camera's viewpoint in some of these titles.
I loved how he added 11:41 clip right at the end to defend his big criticism on God Of War :D
"Worst camera"? I've gotta mention a small PS2 platformer called _Portal Runner._
It actually wasn't the camera itself, but the interaction with the game's controls that created the problem: you were free to rotate the camera (via right stick) as you pleased, but all your movement was in _character-relative_ directions (like a first-person game) rather than camera-relative directions (as is standard now). So long as you kept the camera facing (approximately) the same direction as your character, no problem; but if you wanted to shift the camera to any different angle (like side-on) you had to keep in mind that "up" on the control stick now means sideways (on the screen).
By contrast, the camera in early Tomb Raider games worked largely because it was locked behind Lara (so your character-relative directions mapped intuitively to the camera angle), and would only snap to a different angle in certain cases (such as backing Lara up against a wall where the camera will no longer "fit"). For the most part, any section requiring speed and precision in movement had enough space for the camera to follow Lara from its default position; any section tight enough to constrain the camera allowed you the time to navigate it at your own pace (with or without input errors).
Whoa, those camera controls sound like a *nightmare* for Portal Runner. What were the devs thinking?! Honestly, I want to try this game out based on your comment alone (I'll probably use an emulator). I have to see this monstrosity for myself lol
@@VeteranXGaming The worst part? They advertised it as a feature on the back of the box (the "Orbit Cam"), and this was during the early PS2 era when camera-relative controls were _already the standard_ in 3D games (Mario 64, Spyro, Jak, etc).
Again, not so much a fundamentally bad design decision or that you couldn't adapt to it (remember: "up" means forward _for your character_ not onscreen), but it clashed with changing industry norms and feels horribly non-intuitive now.
@@Stratelier wow, I love it when "features" make the game more crappy. And I can easily see how non-intuitive those controls would be within a modern age. Like, imagine if The Witcher 3 or Mario Odyssey had these controls. It'd would be *disgusting*
@@VeteranXGaming Fun fact: Monster Hunter games actually have an option for whether you want the left analog stick to be interpreted as camera-relative or character-relative (camera-relative is the default).
@@Stratelier oh really? 200 hours in on Monster Hunter World and I never knew that. I never would've guessed! I'm going to give that a shot and see "how it feels"